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View Full Version : Velocity, Where Art Thou?


Basten
07-18-2004, 07:41 PM
2003 Loaiza does not give up a 1-2 double to Dye let alone a 1-2 homer to Bing Crosby.

2003 Loaiza blows a 93-94 mph heater by Dye just above the belt and away.
2003 Loaiza throws a 89 mph nasty cutter to Crosby who misses it by a foot.

I am sick and tired of hearing all this "he needs to pitch inside, that'll cure all ills" garbage. His fastball and cutter are 2-3 mph slower than last year, and he can't properly set up his change and slider, or location for that matter. Hitters aren't afraid of him anymore. He's become a ****ing nibbler. Afraid of the bat, falls behind all the time -- and he doesn't have the STUFF anymore to be pitching from behind!


I have no idea how this is gonna get fixed in the next 2 months. It's not as if you could buy additional armspeed in the flee market.

Daver
07-18-2004, 07:44 PM
It is posts like these that further convince me that the radar gun should be banned from baseball.

JB98
07-18-2004, 07:44 PM
2003 Loaiza does not give up a 1-2 double to Dye let alone a 1-2 homer to Bing Crosby.

2003 Loaiza blows a 93-94 mph heater by Dye just above the belt and away.
2003 Loaiza throws a 89 mph nasty cutter to Crosby who misses it by a foot.

I am sick and tired of hearing all this "he needs to pitch inside, that'll cure all ills" garbage. His fastball and cutter are 2-3 mph slower than last year, and he can't properly set up his change and slider, or location for that matter. Hitters aren't afraid of him anymore. He's become a ****ing nibbler. Afraid of the bat, falls behind all the time -- and he doesn't have the STUFF anymore to be pitching from behind!


I have no idea how this is gonna get fixed in the next 2 months. It's not as if you could buy additional armspeed in the flee market.
One thing is for certain: Loaiza doesn't trust his stuff. Since his is the opinion that counts the most, I'd say he is in trouble.

South Side
07-18-2004, 07:48 PM
One thing is for certain: Loaiza doesn't trust his stuff. Since his is the opinion that counts the most, I'd say he is in trouble.
I'd say the Sox are in trouble....
Ahh, why can't everyone just play perfectly?? I am so sick of all these holes that keep opening up.

Kadafi311
07-18-2004, 07:51 PM
Blah Blah.

Besides the mistake to Crosby, I thought he pitched a great game.

Had Rowand made the catch Loaiza's line would of been: 7IP 6H 2ER 4BB 5K

Not too friggin shabby if you ask me. Yes the walks total is a little high, but there were several close calls that didn't go his way.

Win some, lose some.

samram
07-18-2004, 07:53 PM
If he's lost velocity, he has to go inside more, not less. He doesn't have a good enough change-up to live outside all the time. He has to back guys off and then throw that cutter away.

OEO Magglio
07-18-2004, 07:54 PM
Blah Blah.

Besides the mistake to Crosby, I thought he pitched a great game.

Had Rowand made the catch Loaiza's line would of been: 7IP 6H 2ER 4BB 5K

Not too friggin shabby if you ask me. Yes the walks total is a little high, but there were several close calls that didn't go his way.

Win some, lose some.
Right, and if Jermaine Dye doesn't hit that ball of the wall a run wouldn't have scored. :rolleyes:

South Side
07-18-2004, 07:59 PM
Blah Blah.

Besides the mistake to Crosby, I thought he pitched a great game.

Had Rowand made the catch Loaiza's line would of been: 7IP 6H 2ER 4BB 5K

Not too friggin shabby if you ask me. Yes the walks total is a little high, but there were several close calls that didn't go his way.

Win some, lose some.
Had Rowand made that catch (the one he busted his ass for) he would have been saving Loiaza's ass. I don't think there was really a "besides the mistake to Crosby". That's the mistake that cost us the game... and I don't see how people are making excuses for him. I agree that you win some and you lose some but Loiaza is losing his share and everyone else's.

Basten
07-18-2004, 08:01 PM
It is posts like these that further convince me that the radar gun should be banned from baseball.Oh really now?

Hanging 85 mph cutter that didn't cut to Dye and an 90 mph knee-high fastball middle of the plate to Crosby?

Do you not remember how Loaiza used to set-up the jittery hitters for most of 2003?

Last year, he was a cocky SOB with sharp control and the stuff (more velocity and bite) to thrive even when he was behind in the count. The stuff went first. Then his supreme confidence in himself followed and the formerly pinpoint control suffered as a result.

I don't see how this could be even up for debate. There is a reason why is nibbling - he knows he'll get killed inside/over the plate.

Watch the tape of him dominating in Yankee Stadium last year and learn.

OEO Magglio
07-18-2004, 08:04 PM
Oh really now?

Hanging 85 mph cutter that didn't cut to Dye and an 90 mph knee-high fastball middle of the plate to Crosby?

Do you not remember how Loaiza used to set-up the jittery hitters for the most part of 2003?

Last year, he was a cocky SOB with sharp control and the stuff (more velocity and bite) to thrive even when he was behind in the count. The stuff went first. Then his supreme confidence in himself followed and the formerly pinpoint control suffered as a result.

I don't see how this could be even up for debate. There is a reason why is nibbling - he knows he'll get killed inside/over the plate.

Watch the tape of him dominating in Yankee Stadium last year and learn.
You said it. If he still has good break and good location on his pitches the velocity won't mean as much. He got beat today because he hung his cutter not because he wasn't throwing hard enough.

Basten
07-18-2004, 08:12 PM
Blah Blah.


Had Rowand made the catch Loaiza's line would of been: 7IP 6H 2ER 4BB 5K

.
So let me get this straight.....because Rowand didn't make a catch such accomplished climbers as Edmonds and Hunter often fail to make......We should forget about the get-me-over BP ball Loaiza threw to Crosby?

Bad Crash, bad.

Daver
07-18-2004, 08:20 PM
You said it. If he still has good break and good location on his pitches the velocity won't mean as much. He got beat today because he hung his cutter not because he wasn't throwing hard enough.

Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winner.

If a pitcher is relying strictly on velocity then he is a thrower. Pitchers pitch.

Jamie Moyer has been throwing salad for 15 years, and remains an effective pitcher. Greg Maddux has never thrown hard, and has a handful of Cy Young awards for it. Randy Johnson got beat consistently as a young pitcher that could throw 100 MPH, till he learned how to pitch with Seattle.

The radar gun should be banned from baseball, it has hurt more young pitchers than it will ever help.

Basten
07-18-2004, 08:25 PM
I'd say the Sox are in trouble....
Ahh, why can't everyone just play perfectly?? I am so sick of all these holes that keep opening up.
But wait....We're trying to win the World Series, are we not? Who cares if our #1 coming into this season is just an average pitcher now....surely we can work around that, right? I am sure our great hitters will make Shiilling, Pedro, Brown, Hudson and Co. wish they were never born in the crunch-time.......:rolleyes:

Freddy Garcia made no excuses, he got the same weak run support early, defense let him down and yet he found a way to make it stand up. That's what front-line pitchers do, and that's what Loaiza did in 2003. Sigh.

OEO Magglio
07-18-2004, 08:33 PM
But wait....We're trying to win the World Series, are we not? Who cares if our #1 coming into this season is just an average pitcher now....surely we can work around that, right? I am sure our great hitters will make Shiilling, Pedro, Brown, Hudson and Co. wish they were never born in the crunch-time.......:rolleyes:

Freddy Garcia made no excuses, he got the same weak run support early, defense let him down and yet he found a way to make it stand up. That's what front-line pitchers do, and that's what Loaiza did in 2003. Sigh.
Basten, I couldn't agree with you more on this one. Loaiza blew this game. Three runs against mark mulder is solid and with your so called ace on the mound you win this game. Right now Loaiza is at best a descent 5th starter he has been awful lately. Anyone who was against that Garcia trade before yesterdays start should now really understand how valuable this guy is. If Freddy's out there today we win this game, same with buehrle, hell I even think if JG is out there this game is won. But Loaiza is not a very good starter right now and they either have to find out what's wrong with this guy or kenny has to go out and acquire another starting pitcher to act as a number 3 or number 4 type starter.

Basten
07-18-2004, 08:40 PM
Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winner.

If a pitcher is relying strictly on velocity then he is a thrower. Pitchers pitch.

.Read my follow-up post more carefully.

Nowhere did I say 2003 Loaiza relied on velocity exclusively.

But it certainly helped....a great deal.



And don't give me the "ban the radar gun, save the children" routine. For every exception like Moyer, there are 500 soft-tosser types who never even crack the majors because big leaguers simply have too good a vision, hand-eye coordination, strenght and batspeed for their meek "stuff". Unless you have a uniquely deceptive delivery and a pinpoint control, you will get crushed in the majors without velocity and movement. Exceptions only reinforce the rule.

jeremyb1
07-18-2004, 08:43 PM
You said it. If he still has good break and good location on his pitches the velocity won't mean as much. He got beat today because he hung his cutter not because he wasn't throwing hard enough.

Yeah. I don't know if any of it has to do with not trusting his stuff but his location seems to be the biggest problem in my opinion.

OEO Magglio
07-18-2004, 08:49 PM
Yeah. I don't know if any of it has to do with not trusting his stuff but his location seems to be the biggest problem in my opinion.
Agreed. His velocity has been on and off this year but his location has been awful all year and that's why he's been getting hammered, not because of his velocity.

nitetrain8601
07-18-2004, 09:01 PM
Velocity is not Loiaza's problem at all. If velocity was the problem all the time, then Colon would still be an ace. The problem is location. Loiaza keeps throwing away and never inside. He never mixes the location up. I don't know why he's not throwing in, he just isn't. People need to stop with the velocity BS.

hellenicsoxfan
07-18-2004, 09:04 PM
Yeah. I don't know if any of it has to do with not trusting his stuff but his location seems to be the biggest problem in my opinion.I agree with you. As they say, the key is location, location, location. That pitch to Crosby was thigh high and over the plate. The most frustrating thing was that the count was 1-2 with 2 outs. It seems to me that Loaiza has been leaving too many pitches sitting right out over the plate where most major league hitters won't often miss them, even if it's 93 mph.

Daver
07-18-2004, 09:28 PM
And don't give me the "ban the radar gun, save the children" routine. For every exception like Moyer, there are 500 soft-tosser types who never even crack the majors because big leaguers simply have too good a vision, hand-eye coordination, strenght and batspeed for their meek "stuff". Unless you have a uniquely deceptive delivery and a pinpoint control, you will get crushed in the majors without velocity and movement. Exceptions only reinforce the rule.
Ummm, that goes for anyone that pitches in MLB, no matter how hard they throw, or how soft. The harder a pitcher can throw it without control is the farther it goes when it gets hit.

Stuff has little to do with velocity, you judge a pitchers stuff on how he uses what he has, not on how hard he can throw it. Rocky Biddle had the best fastball on the Sox staff the entire time he was here, not because he threw it the hardest, but because his fastball had the best movement.

All that aside I am very glad you have no voice in making pitching decisions for the Sox.

JB98
07-18-2004, 10:01 PM
I agree with you. As they say, the key is location, location, location. That pitch to Crosby was thigh high and over the plate. The most frustrating thing was that the count was 1-2 with 2 outs. It seems to me that Loaiza has been leaving too many pitches sitting right out over the plate where most major league hitters won't often miss them, even if it's 93 mph.
Loaiza has been behind in a lot of counts this year too. He's been picking at the corners a lot, which leads me to believe he doesn't trust his stuff. He has been out over the plate quite a bit this year, but last year, he got away with a lot of those because of the movement on his pitches. This year, the movement is gone. I don't know enough about pitching to judge if his mechanics are off or whatever, but it doesn't take a genius to see that his slider and cutter have flattened out.

Kadafi311
07-19-2004, 02:22 PM
So let me get this straight.....because Rowand didn't make a catch such accomplished climbers as Edmonds and Hunter often fail to make......We should forget about the get-me-over BP ball Loaiza threw to Crosby?

Bad Crash, bad.Where in my post did I say Rowand should of made the catch? I said if he made the catch. And if he had, there would of been 15 new posts about how Loaiza is back!

The guy made one mistake in that ballgame. I didn't say it was excusable, because no, it's not - it cost us the ballgame.

Jerko
07-19-2004, 03:28 PM
What bothers me the most about Loaiza lately is this: In his last 3 starts (at Cubs, Angels, and at A's), after the Sox have scored, the opposing team has scored off of him in their next at bat EVERY SINGLE TIME! Every time, for the past 3 starts, he goes out there AFTER the Sox score and allows runs. Is it in his head? Is he so confident with a lead that he just goes out there and throws? And 4 starts ago, by the way, (9-4 win vs. Cubs), he did it twice that game too. The Sox scored in the 1st and 2nd, Cubs scored in the 2nd and 3rd. The Sox scored the next 3 innings too and finally he held the other team off the board. Hasn't done it since then and that was June 27.

bobj4400
07-19-2004, 03:47 PM
What bothers me the most about Loaiza lately is this: In his last 3 starts (at Cubs, Angels, and at A's), after the Sox have scored, the opposing team has scored off of him in their next at bat EVERY SINGLE TIME! Every time, for the past 3 starts, he goes out there AFTER the Sox score and allows runs. Is it in his head? Is he so confident with a lead that he just goes out there and throws? And 4 starts ago, by the way, (9-4 win vs. Cubs), he did it twice that game too. The Sox scored in the 1st and 2nd, Cubs scored in the 2nd and 3rd. The Sox scored the next 3 innings too and finally he held the other team off the board. Hasn't done it since then and that was June 27.

Agreed. Although all the Sox pitchers have had this problem, Loaiza has been the worst offender by far. Holding the opposition the inning after scoring is essential, and the Sox staff just cannot do it.