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View Full Version : Hey Kenny, forget about Randy, get some hitters who aren't headcases.


WSox8404
07-16-2004, 11:09 PM
Pitching isn't the problem anymore folks, hitting is.

Frater Perdurabo
07-16-2004, 11:11 PM
I'm still aboad the bandwagon.

But I feel like I'm beating the same drum...GO GET JASON KENDALL!!!!

Catches, leads off and provides an infusion of much-needed OBP.

WSox8404
07-16-2004, 11:15 PM
Oh, I haven't jumped off yet either. We do need help though. Jason Kendal is the perfect fit. But will KW listen?

SEALgep
07-16-2004, 11:18 PM
Oh, I haven't jumped off yet either. We do need help though. Jason Kendal is the perfect fit. But will KW listen?It's not that simple to say KW needs to go get him. That contract has prevented many a team in getting a deal done. The guy can play, but the Pirates need to be game to make it happen. Thus far they've been reluctant to giving him up while picking up a significant portion of the contract. The guy would be great to have, but not by throwing all caution out the window.

Frater Perdurabo
07-16-2004, 11:20 PM
It's not that simple to say KW needs to go get him. That contract has prevented many a team in getting a deal done. The guy can play, but the Pirates need to be game to make it happen. Thus far they've been reluctant to giving him up while picking up a significant portion of the contract. The guy would be great to have, but not by throwing all caution out the window.
But winning games and making the playoffs will increase attendance. This brings in more money, which makes Kendall's contract affordable.

SEALgep
07-16-2004, 11:26 PM
But winning games and making the playoffs will increase attendance. This brings in more money, which makes Kendall's contract affordable.You have to think value. Just because you may be able to afford something (and we are assuming some things here) doesn't make it a good move. A move like this may very well hamper some other moves, and will certainly limit the next several years in our budget. The guy would be great to have, and I'm sure KW is at least inquiring about getting him, but with the Pirates picking up some of the salary. To just say get him, and pick up his salary, well, that wouldn't be very smart. If we can get him at a reduced rate, then by all means, do it.

Frater Perdurabo
07-16-2004, 11:34 PM
You have to think value. Just because you may be able to afford something (and we are assuming some things here) doesn't make it a good move. A move like this may very well hamper some other moves, and will certainly limit the next several years in our budget. The guy would be great to have, and I'm sure KW is at least inquiring about getting him, but with the Pirates picking up some of the salary. To just say get him, and pick up his salary, well, that wouldn't be very smart. If we can get him at a reduced rate, then by all means, do it.
But part of value is more than money. It's what is right for a particular team. Kendall perfectly complements this team, making him more valuable to the Sox than, say, the Braves or Yankees or Tigers, for example.

Kendall brings EXACTLY what the Sox lack...catching, OBP ability, leadoff/#2 hitting ability, at a low cost of players in return.

Rather than hampering other moves, adding Kendall makes other moves more possible because the Sox still would have prospects available to trade.

SEALgep
07-16-2004, 11:44 PM
But part of value is more than money. It's what is right for a particular team. Kendall perfectly complements this team, making him more valuable to the Sox than, say, the Braves or Yankees or Tigers, for example.

Kendall brings EXACTLY what the Sox lack...catching, OBP ability, leadoff/#2 hitting ability, at a low cost of players in return.

Rather than hampering other moves, adding Kendall makes other moves more possible because the Sox still would have prospects available to trade.But who could the Sox trade those prospects for, we would have added too much payroll to really do anything else. If they can do it, great. However, there would be pretty much no hope to sign Maggs. Also, just because Kendall has value to a team like ours, doesn't mean he is worth that kind of salary.

Lip Man 1
07-17-2004, 01:27 AM
The problem is that there are no guarantees that I know of that say if the Sox get Kendell and take on that contract they will make the playoffs.

Last year the Sox were head and shoulders above everyone else in the division but didn't get in did they? Or 2001...or 1995... or 1991...or 1984...or 1973...or 1968.

Get my drift?

I'd love to see the Sox get Kendell and Johnson AND Finley, but even if they grab them all, there are no guarantees.

Since the start of the 2001 season the Sox have changed G.M.'s, changed field managers, changed players, hell they even revamped the stadium...to no avail. Something is fundamentally wrong with this organization and I'll be damned if I know what it is.

If I did, I'd personally deliver the message to Uncle Jerry.

Lip

Win1ForMe
07-17-2004, 02:00 AM
I really agree with you guys about needing a high OBP guy in the lineup but
Kendall's contract is an albatross. Kenny Lofton, if the Sox can nab him from the
Yankees, would be a perfect pick up IMO. Don't know how realistic those
chances are, or if Kenny burned a bridge here for whatever reason, but his
presence at the top of the lineup would solidify this offense. One could argue
he carried the Cubs last year.

Also, some will see this as a possible good move because of the name value, but
I hope we stay away from Carlos Beltran. He's a duplicate of the power hitters
that are currently spread throughout our lineup (.360 OBP with power).

If we can somehow pick up Lofton or Kendall though, Jeff Kent would look solid
on the Southside (despite his similarities to most of our hitters). Doubtful we'd
have prospects to get that many deals done.

OEO Magglio
07-17-2004, 02:06 AM
I really agree with you guys about needing a high OBP guy in the lineup but
Kendall's contract is an albatross. Kenny Lofton, if the Sox can nab him from the
Yankees, would be a perfect pick up IMO. Don't know how realistic those
chances are, or if Kenny burned a bridge here for whatever reason, but his
presence at the top of the lineup would solidify this offense. One could argue
he carried the Cubs last year.

Also, some will see this as a possible good move because of the name value, but
I hope we stay away from Carlos Beltran. He's a duplicate of the power hitters
that are currently spread throughout our lineup (.360 OBP with power).

If we can somehow pick up Lofton or Kendall though, Jeff Kent would look solid
on the Southside (despite his similarities to most of our hitters). Doubtful we'd
have prospects to get that many deals done.No thanks on kenny. He basically wore out his welcome with the sox in 2002, I don't think kenny likes him and I don't think he'd be welcomed back here. The sox definitely need a top of the order guy with a high obp, kendall would be perfect but the problem is obviously his contract. Besides kendall, I think kenny should give a look to either jerry hairston or brian roberts, which ever one baltimore wants to trade.

Win1ForMe
07-17-2004, 02:19 AM
No thanks on kenny. He basically wore out his welcome with the sox in 2002, I don't think kenny likes him and I don't think he'd be welcomed back here. The sox definitely need a top of the order guy with a high obp, kendall would be perfect but the problem is obviously his contract. Besides kendall, I think kenny should give a look to either jerry hairston or brian roberts, which ever one baltimore wants to trade.According to Babelfish, the English-to-Spanish translation of "Brian Roberts" is
appearantly "Juan Uribe." :redneck

Or hot start---> bad finish (well, more like hot start ---> bad middle with rest
unknown.) Jerry Hairston Jr. is having a solid season though.

OEO Magglio
07-17-2004, 02:21 AM
According to Babelfish, the English-to-Spanish translation of "Brian Roberts" is
appearantly "Juan Uribe." :redneck

Or hot start---> bad finish (well, more like hot start ---> bad middle with rest
unknown.) Jerry Hairston Jr. is having a solid season though.Haha, my dictionary is a little off I guess.:D:

Mohoney
07-17-2004, 02:34 AM
I'd love to see the Sox get Kendell and Johnson AND Finley, but even if they grab them all, there are no guarantees.

If they somehow, someway, went for broke and got ALL THREE of these guys, Minnesota wouldn't stand a chance of even finishing within 10 games of us, let alone keep us out of the playoffs.

I would DEFINITELY mortgage the next 10 years to field this team in the 2004 playoffs:

LF Lee
CF Finley
RF Ordonez
1B Konerko
2B Harris
3B Uribe
SS Valentin
C Kendall
DH Thomas

With this bench:

C Alomar, Jr.
OF Rowand
OF Perez
IF Dransfeldt
UT Gload

This starting rotation:

Johnson
Garcia
Buehrle
Loaiza

This Bullpen:

Schoenweis
Adkins
Jackson
Setup man obtained in a trade
Politte
Marte
Shingo

That is, in my opinion, a World Series-caliber team. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that anybody else in the AL would be able to touch us, no matter who they added. We would have snabbed the top 2 starters on the market, and boosted the production in the lineup above and beyond our wildest dreams. If we added another piece in the bullpen like Hasegawa, and added Schoenweis as a lefty option, we should be able to succeed in that department as well.

I'm assuming a few things, however. I'm assuming that Garland, Crede, Cotts, and prospects like Munoz, Anderson, and Borchard would be the price to seal some of these deals.

Crede, Cotts, Borchard, Anderson, and PTBNL to Arizona for Johnson, Finley, and significant cash considerations.

Garland, Munoz, and PTBNL to Pittsburgh for Kendall and significant cash considerations.

Two PTBNL to Seattle for Hasegawa and cash considerations.

Dan H
07-17-2004, 08:52 AM
It's nice to think about trades, but proposing trades and pulling them off are two different things. Right now we have to deal with the hand we have. The sox have to learn to score when they don't hit homers. Can anyone get a single or double with runners in scoring position?

LauraJ14
07-17-2004, 11:05 AM
Or learn how to hit the ball in the outfield gaps like teams seem to do against us?

StrTrkker
07-17-2004, 11:23 AM
Did Seattle actually release John Olerud?

As posted in another thread...he may be worth a shot to pick up for the DH spot.

Evman5
07-17-2004, 11:26 AM
I don't know if KC would trade him to us, but how about trading for Ken Harvey?

He recently went through a slump so maybe his trade value is a little lower than what it may have been. He was batting .379 at one point this season. He is pretty young I think this is his 3rd big league season. He is hitting a little over .300 this season with 10 Hr and 35 Rbis. I don't know what it would take to get him, but I defintely think he can be a useful player for us.

mdep524
07-17-2004, 11:28 AM
Since the start of the 2001 season the Sox have changed G.M.'s, changed field managers, changed players, hell they even revamped the stadium...to no avail. Something is fundamentally wrong with this organization and I'll be damned if I know what it is.
You got it here- something IS FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG, and it's the players. You can fire all the batting coaches in the world and it's not going to change the fact that you have one-dimensional, slow footed, unintelligent players in your line up- same as '00, '01, '02, '03.

ITS THE PLAYERS. How long until the "last horse crosses the finish line" and the Sox brass actually figure this out?

SEALgep
07-17-2004, 11:36 AM
I don't know if KC would trade him to us, but how about trading for Ken Harvey?

He recently went through a slump so maybe his trade value is a little lower than what it may have been. He was batting .379 at one point this season. He is pretty young I think this is his 3rd big league season. He is hitting a little over .300 this season with 10 Hr and 35 Rbis. I don't know what it would take to get him, but I defintely think he can be a useful player for us.They would trade Sweeney over him. Harvey's making far less, is younger, and is part of their future.

Evman5
07-17-2004, 11:48 AM
They would trade Sweeney over him. Harvey's making far less, is younger, and is part of their future.

Well I have no problem with getting Sweeney, isn't he an FA after the season?

Paulwny
07-17-2004, 01:11 PM
Kendall also has a no-trade clause. He claims he's happy in Pit, but would consider a trade to a west coast team. Maybe KW has talked to Pit. only to be told that Kendall won't waive the clause.

Lip Man 1
07-17-2004, 02:03 PM
Mohoney:

You mean like the 'guarantee' the Cubs thought they had?

Lip

samram
07-17-2004, 02:25 PM
They would trade Sweeney over him. Harvey's making far less, is younger, and is part of their future.
Sweeney, by the way, is red hot right now- he's definitely over whatveer was bothering him earlier in the season. Of course, with him, it's just a matter of time before he's injured again.

JRIG
07-17-2004, 02:27 PM
Sweeney, by the way, is red hot right now- he's definitely over whatveer was bothering him earlier in the season. Of course, with him, it's just a matter of time before he's injured again.
And with his back, he will be injured, that's the problem. He's also making too much money, quite overpaid at $12 million a year, I think.

samram
07-17-2004, 02:30 PM
Kendall also has a no-trade clause. He claims he's happy in Pit, but would consider a trade to a west coast team. Maybe KW has talked to Pit. only to be told that Kendall won't waive the clause.
Maybe it's just me, but it seems as if a great majority, if not all, available players with no-trade clauses either want the Yankees, maybe the BoSox, or west coast teams. They're just not interested in the midwest. It took Fred McGriff two or three weeks to decide whether he wanted to leave the awful DRays in 2001 to join the Cubs. The only midwest team Randy Johnson seems to be interested in is St. Louis, and like you said, Kendall may not waive his clause for a non-west coast team. It makes it tough for midwestern teams to take their teams from division contenders to WS contenders.

Basten
07-17-2004, 02:30 PM
I'd love to see the Sox get Kendell and Johnson AND Finley, but even if they grab them all, there are no guarantees.......

........Something is fundamentally wrong with this organization and I'll be damned if I know what it is.

Lip
Making a half-assed attempt to get Randy Johnson and Steve Finley before seeing others teams grab them is PRECISELY what's wrong with this organization.

Last year Sox got Everett and Washed-upRobbie and went from being under .500 to as high as 12 or 13 games over .500 in the span of 2 months, playing a much tougher schedule no less.....before running out of gas in the final weeks. Don't tell me Everett's 850 OPS and bad defense that gave runs away could make THAT much difference. No, there had to be something else at work, something that kicked up the team's intensity two notches and made everything click. Leadership, "fong-having", I have no idea what, but the contrast between the 1st half team and the 2nd half one was startling.

Well, Sox were 8 games OVER .500 at the ASB this time around. Likewise, 2nd half schedule is easier than last year's. Minnesota is weaker, too. You get Randy Johnson and Finley, and Sox run away with the division, I promise. Sure, you'd still have days like yesterday on the road when they corpseball it up, but those days would be few and far in between. And in the playoffs, especially the 1st round, our chances would literally DOUBLE with a stud ace taking the mound in Game 1 and 4, and an experienced, high-OBP (against RHP esp) hitter taking the 2-spot away from Confused Juan.

And that not even getting into the huge attendance and revenue boost such daring move would provide. Suffice to say, JR won't regret shelling out extra 8 Mill this season on those two players.

But of course since there are big risks and big sums of money involved, this move will not be made. Hopefully this Sox squad can somehow limp into playoffs. :bandance:

Mohoney
07-17-2004, 02:42 PM
Mohoney:

You mean like the 'guarantee' the Cubs thought they had?

Lip

There is a BIG difference between getting Johnson, Finley, and Kendall and getting Ramirez, Lofton, Glanville, and Randall Simon.

Deadguy
07-17-2004, 02:58 PM
Well I have no problem with getting Sweeney, isn't he an FA after the season?
I'm sure the Royals would love to get rid of Sweeney. He's a DH making 11 million per year through 2007. He's a great hitter in the clutch, but has no place on this team.

Basten
07-17-2004, 02:58 PM
Mohoney:

You mean like the 'guarantee' the Cubs thought they had?

LipWhat's all this 'guarantee' business I keep hearing about?

No such thing in baseball, especially when you got Yankees and Red Sox in your league.

Sox could go 3 and out even with Randy Johnson, Finley and Smoltz.

Or they could smoke people, 1998 Yankees-style and bring the Parade to SS.

And yeah, Cubs' move was genius (Bobby Hill?!) and couldn't have come at a better time, but they already had two Randy Johnsons on their team, Wood and Prior, so that made it easier for them to come within a few outs of the WS, where they probably would have beaten the Yanks....

Lip Man 1
07-17-2004, 03:08 PM
Mohoney:

I'm talking about THIS year. The Cubs thought they had it all figured out....turns out they didn't.

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
07-17-2004, 03:18 PM
IMHO, the best way to win a World Series is to build an organization from the bottom up and be competitive for a long period of time. Devote your resources to a dominant starting rotation and make smart free-agent signings to fill needs. That's what the 90s Braves, the Yankees and the A's have done, and it's what the Cubs are doing right now with a greater degree of success than the chronic losing to which they have become accustomed.

The Sox FINALLY seem to acknowledge that they must build a strong rotation, and they are on their way with Buehrle, Garland and Garcia. With that in mind, those three are the most "untouchable."

The future seems OK as well. Even though nothing is certain, they seem to have a good crop of position players in their system: Borchard, Anderson, Sweeney, Fields, Lucy, Valido, etc. Of course not all of them will be stars, but some will be decent major leaguers.

The biggest problem right now is the one-dimensional offense. Too right-handed, too slow, to dependant on the long ball. It's been a problem since 2000 and dates back to trading Cameron for Konerko.

Assume he hasn't nixed a trade to the Sox, Kendall is the perfect complement. If getting him means losing Maggs, so be it. We already have plenty of right-handed power on this team with Frank, Lee and Konerko. (Personally I'd try to get Kendall, trade Lee or Konerko for pitching after the season and then re-sign Maggs.) Power hitters run hot and cold. But they get more RBI when men are on base (Duh!). Maybe slow sluiggers at every position wins in fantasy leagues or video games. But it doesn't work well in the MLB, and the Sox are the perfect example of it.

If Kendall has refused a trade to the Sox, then K-Dub needs to pursue players like him. Guys who get on base, play "up the middle" positions and who make the Sox lineup more multidimensional.

If we can't get Kendall and Finley, find other players like them, NOT another slugger.

Paulwny
07-17-2004, 03:40 PM
Maybe it's just me, but it seems as if a great majority, if not all, available players with no-trade clauses either want the Yankees, maybe the BoSox, or west coast teams. They're just not interested in the midwest. It took Fred McGriff two or three weeks to decide whether he wanted to leave the awful DRays in 2001 to join the Cubs. The only midwest team Randy Johnson seems to be interested in is St. Louis, and like you said, Kendall may not waive his clause for a non-west coast team. It makes it tough for midwestern teams to take their teams from division contenders to WS contenders.
It gets funnier every day. From Roto World. Steve Finley said "he's unlikely to approve a trade to any club other then the Padres".

Frater Perdurabo
07-17-2004, 03:44 PM
It gets funnier every day. From Roto World. Steve Finley said "he's unlikely to approve a trade to any club other then the Padres".
All the more reason to follow a philosophy of building a strong organization from the bottom up, because if good players generally don't want to be traded to Midwest teams, what makes us think they would want to come to the Midwest as free agents (unless we grossly overpay)?

samram
07-17-2004, 03:59 PM
All the more reason to follow a philosophy of building a strong organization from the bottom up, because if good players generally don't want to be traded to Midwest teams, what makes us think they would want to come to the Midwest as free agents (unless we grossly overpay)?
Very true. Not to mention, we've seen guys like Shane Spencer, Frankie Rodriguez, John Lackey, and Miguel Cabrera have come up to make big impacts to championship teams in recent years.

Basten
07-17-2004, 04:04 PM
Mohoney:

I'm talking about THIS year. The Cubs thought they had it all figured out....turns out they didn't.

Lip
Let me ask you this then....Are you for real?

Cubs came within two fantastic defensive stops by their SS Alex Gonzelez in late innings of Game 1 (both on Sosa's missile ground balls with a would-be game-winning run in scoring position) from sweeping the Marlins - they would go on to win Games 2, 3, 4. And they definately should have won Game 6 - replay the fluky, errr, fateful 8th inning 10 times, Cubs win at least 8 times.

So yeah....They HAD it all figured out - a minimum their first World Series appearance since 1945. And, once there, there was at least a 60-40 chance they would have beaten the bloated Yankee squad.

And last time I checked, not only did the Trib. Co not cash in its chips, but they fielded an even better team this year, albeit one handicapped by major injuries - which could happen to any team.

Of course giving up Bobby Hill is not exactly that big of a deal, while Garland, Cotts, Rowand - that could seriously hurt in the future.

Lip Man 1
07-17-2004, 11:17 PM
Basten:

That's my point. Mahoney was talking about taking on Kendell and guaranteeing a playoff spot. Read some of the earlier threads. It doesn't work that way.

The Cubs on paper had a dominant team, Cub fans had them already winning the series back in March. Right now they are seven behind the Cards.

Would it increase the Sox chances? Yes...would it guarantee them making the playoffs...no. (see last year with the additions of Alomar, Everett, Schowenweis and Sullivan...)
Lip

gosox41
07-17-2004, 11:40 PM
Mohoney:

I'm talking about THIS year. The Cubs thought they had it all figured out....turns out they didn't.

Lip
The Cubs are very much in the hunt for the Wild Card spot.


Bob

Mohoney
07-18-2004, 01:54 AM
Basten:

That's my point. Mahoney was talking about taking on Kendell and guaranteeing a playoff spot.

That's not what I said. I said that getting Kendall AND Finley AND Unit would guarantee that we win the division, and I stick by that. Minnesota wouldn't even finish within 10 games of us if we fielded that team.

I know it won't happen, but this thread seemed devoted to pipe-dreams, so I just threw it out there.

pearso66
07-18-2004, 02:09 AM
IIRC, didnt Sweeney have a clause in his contract that if they won over so many games, or he got ot an allstar game, or something, I cant remember what it was, his extension would kick in, and he would get paid a lot. I believe he's now signed for 2-3 more years after this, But I could be mistaken.


And I agree with the best way to win a WS is to build a solid club throughout, and not take a 1 and done effort. The 1 and done isn't as successful, and if we can build a solid team througout, we have a chance to make hte playoffs for years to come, and in that case give us a better chance at making the WS. This is one reason I dont want to give up on Garland.