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View Full Version : Thomas Has Stress Fracture--Out 2 Mos.


DickAllen72
07-16-2004, 06:42 PM
Bruce Levine just reported on ESPN1000.

steff
07-16-2004, 06:43 PM
That big selfish baby... :rolleyes:

hawkjt
07-16-2004, 06:44 PM
Stress fracture in the foot. immobilize for 6 weeks with a couple more weeks of rehab. Damn it. This is a killer. Our offense looks very weak without frank. No anchor. Our medical staff is to be questioned for missing this. I know it can be hard to catch. I am so depressed/pissed.

nasox
07-16-2004, 06:44 PM
Well, its not like it wasn't expected or inevitable.

ChiWhiteSox1337
07-16-2004, 06:44 PM
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!! :whiner::whiner::whiner::whiner::whiner:

Deadguy
07-16-2004, 06:44 PM
Does that mean there's still an outside shot he could return in September?

KW needs to pick up someone, NOW!

OEO Magglio
07-16-2004, 06:45 PM
Time for kenny to go get crazy carl back.

DickAllen72
07-16-2004, 06:47 PM
Does that mean there's still an outside shot he could return in September?

KW needs to pick up someone, NOW!

They say he could be back September 15th.

Now we need Delgado, Finley or Everett, PLUS a Catcher, Plus a Pitcher.

Deadguy
07-16-2004, 06:47 PM
Stress fracture in the foot. immobilize for 6 weeks with a couple more weeks of rehab. Damn it. This is a killer. Our offense looks very weak without frank. No anchor. Our medical staff is to be questioned for missing this. I know it can be hard to catch. I am so depressed/pissed.
Was Frank originally diagnosed with a sprained ankle? From my understanding, wasn't he hit with a baseball while he was running the base paths?

harwar
07-16-2004, 06:47 PM
I was about to eat dinner and just lost my appetitte.
I just don't see how a guy of his size and age can come back this year.
It just ain't gonna be the same without the BIG HURT.:(:
DAMN!! DAMN !! DOUBLE DAMN!!!!!!!

Nard
07-16-2004, 06:47 PM
My doctor missed mine the first examination, telling me it was just a sprained ankle, and a month later, when it still hurt, it showed up.

But I'd expect better from a professional sports medical team.

hawkjt
07-16-2004, 06:48 PM
There goes the world series.

Cowch44
07-16-2004, 06:49 PM
Great, just what we needed. And now people are gonna start more Let's try to get so-and-so threads. We should open one thread called Ideas to fill Thomas' spot.

DickAllen72
07-16-2004, 06:52 PM
There goes the world series.

All teams have injuries. Now KW will ride to the rescue!! (I hope).

Win1ForMe
07-16-2004, 06:54 PM
So is the possibility of returning from a stress fracture any different than a
possibility of returning from the previously mentioned surgery? That is, is the
proposed September 15th return date a "best case scenario, but don't really
expect him this year" type of deal (similar to the "possible" 6-8 week post
surgery period)?

Beckett, we need your input...

Deadguy
07-16-2004, 06:57 PM
So is the possibility of returning from a stress fracture any different than a
possibility of returning from the previously mentioned surgery? That is, is the
proposed September 15th return date a "best case scenario, but don't really
expect him this year" type of deal (similar to the "possible" 6-8 week post
surgery period)?

Beckett, we need your input...
I would also be interested in knowing if this had been discovered June 17th, if he could have returned by mid to late August? That would look much better than the present scenario, since Thomas has done next to nothing in the past month.

hawkjt
07-16-2004, 07:01 PM
Not a doctor but similar stress fracture occurred to Jared Reiner, 7ft BB center at Iowa this last december. They could not find anything with MRI and bone scan and he tried to play -kept hurting and a couple of weeks later they did it again and found stress fracture. They said 8 weeks but it was at least 3 months before he started playing again. I think Frank is gone for the year. So depressing.

Deadguy
07-16-2004, 07:01 PM
My doctor missed mine the first examination, telling me it was just a sprained ankle, and a month later, when it still hurt, it showed up.

But I'd expect better from a professional sports medical team.
:reinsy
"Hey! I will have you know that my players are treated by the finest veternarians in the city."

Aidan
07-16-2004, 07:03 PM
ELECT CRAZY CARL FOR DH!!!
http://montreal.expos.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_113946.jpg
"Come on Kenny, get me out of this hell-hole!!!"

DickAllen72
07-16-2004, 07:03 PM
So is the possibility of returning from a stress fracture any different than a
possibility of returning from the previously mentioned surgery? That is, is the
proposed September 15th return date a "best case scenario, but don't really
expect him this year" type of deal (similar to the "possible" 6-8 week post
surgery period)?

Beckett, we need your input...

They said he won't have surgery. So after the stress fracture heals, he'll still have the bone chips in there plus the tendonitis may not be healed. It doesn't look good IMHO, but I'm not a doctor.

RKMeibalane
07-16-2004, 07:05 PM
What does Jose Valentin have to say for himself now?

PRICK -----------------------------------------------> :manos

Huisj
07-16-2004, 07:07 PM
isn't carl everett having a pretty lousy year? will him getting traded to the sox just magically make him produce all the sudden?

Aidan
07-16-2004, 07:09 PM
isn't carl everett having a pretty lousy year? will him getting traded to the sox just magically make him produce all the sudden?He's only having a bad year because he's been out with minor injuries (sore shoulder, twisted ankle). He isn't doing horrible for the few at bats he's had this season...

"Crazy Carl" Everett
http://montreal.expos.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=113946
.258 AVG
2 HR
13 RBI
120 At Bats

Yes, I think coming to the Sox would automatically make him produce. He's on the Monreal Expos for cripes sakes!

DickAllen72
07-16-2004, 07:10 PM
isn't carl everett having a pretty lousy year? will him getting traded to the sox just magically make him produce all the sudden?

He was hurt most of the first half.

Huisj
07-16-2004, 07:12 PM
He's only having a bad year because he's been out with minor injuries (sore shoulder, twisted ankle). He isn't doing horrible for the few at bats he's had this season...

"Crazy Carl" Everett
http://montreal.expos.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=113946
.258 AVG
2 HR
13 RBI
120 At Bats
so projected out to 500 AB, that's about 9 homers and 60 RBI. if he would be healthy, he's probably hit better than that, but him being healthy is not alway something you can count on.

Nard
07-16-2004, 07:13 PM
He has no motivation to produce on that sorry excuse for a team.

Did anyone see that play where he kind of half-heartedly went to go catch a hard line drive and it nearly took his head off?

He ducked down and hit the ground to avoid it, and then just stared at the ball, expecting the CF to come over and grab it.

He's fielding half-assed and hitting half-assed.

Being traded to a contender is just the spark Crazy Carl needs.

jeremyb1
07-16-2004, 07:16 PM
Everett is signed through next season but for reasonable money. I just don't know where he'd play for 4 million next season? Maggs replacement perhaps?

Basten
07-16-2004, 07:17 PM
I must say, Sox docs are getting better - took them only 4 weeks to correct their mis-diagnosis this time, while Danny Wright had over a year's worth of "dead arm".......


*throws up in mouth*

duke of dorwood
07-16-2004, 07:17 PM
Why not get Cabrera and DH Valentin?

OEO Magglio
07-16-2004, 07:19 PM
Why not get Cabrera and DH Valentin?NO. Carl is a perfect dh for this team. If maggs isn't resigned next year, carl is an adequete replacement in right field. I believe he'll make 4 or 4.5 mill next year. I'm sure he wouldn't cost that much in terms of prospects. Bring Jurrassic back kenny.

duke of dorwood
07-16-2004, 07:19 PM
AND-this is actually better than a bad sprain as far as healing goes

Aidan
07-16-2004, 07:23 PM
Why not get Cabrera and DH Valentin?Because the sCrUBbieS are most likely going to trade Alex Gonzalez and pitching prospect(s) for Orlando Cabrera.

MisterB
07-16-2004, 07:23 PM
I think the best we can hope for is that Houston goes into immediate freefall and Beltran becomes available again. He would replace a large portion of Frank's production and upgrade our speed and defense.

Cowch44
07-16-2004, 07:29 PM
How about we get A-rod and DH Valentin. Perfect Idea for the Sox lineup.

jabrch
07-16-2004, 07:33 PM
so projected out to 500 AB, that's about 9 homers and 60 RBI. if he would be healthy, he's probably hit better than that, but him being healthy is not alway something you can count on.
I imagine you can't straight line his projections since he'd be moving to a much better hitters park, and hitting in a much more potent lineup.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-16-2004, 07:36 PM
I can't wait to hear what WSI's resident podiatrist, Beckett21, has to say on this one.

If Frank has a stress fracture, could he have even *walked* on that foot without excruciating pain? Was he risking further injury leaving it untended, including possible muscle and ligament damage from trying to walk on it without proper steps to immobilize the fractured bone?

In other words, what kind of doctor is Kenny "decoy" Williams?

:KW
"I'm not a doctor, but I play one in front of asswipes like Joe Cowley."

RKMeibalane
07-16-2004, 07:48 PM
The New ****ing Idiot --------------------------> :KW

RKMeibalane
07-16-2004, 07:49 PM
How about we get A-rod and DH Valentin. Perfect Idea for the Sox lineup.
Use pink for dreams. Teal is for sarcasm.

OurBitchinMinny
07-16-2004, 07:53 PM
not good news, but they can overcome it. He is not a big of a loss as ordonez was and they did ok during that. Maybe they make an additional move. Plus dont forget we have the great Borchard (teal)

South Side
07-16-2004, 07:55 PM
I think the best we can hope for is that Houston goes into immediate freefall and Beltran becomes available again. He would replace a large portion of Frank's production and upgrade our speed and defense.
Did anyone hear Bruce Levine discussing this like 10 minutes ago? He said something about whoever Houston is playing right now is helping us out right b/c they're winning... What else did he say? I missed it.

RKMeibalane
07-16-2004, 07:55 PM
they can overcome it
That remains to be seen. Most teams who lose a future HOF'er have trouble overcoming it.

Cowch44
07-16-2004, 07:58 PM
Use pink for dreams. Teal is for sarcasm.
I'm aware.

RKMeibalane
07-16-2004, 08:00 PM
I'm aware.
Just checking. Oh, and Trix are for kids. :D:

RKMeibalane
07-16-2004, 08:04 PM
September never seemed so far away.

:whiner::whiner::whiner::whiner::whiner::whiner:

harwar
07-16-2004, 08:05 PM
I guess we can forget about randy johnson for a while and start thinking about carlos beltran.
Its a strange and mysterious world.

JRIG
07-16-2004, 08:31 PM
Shouldn't Frank be on the bench right now, acting as a decoy in case Zito gets in trouble?

serena
07-16-2004, 08:34 PM
Get well soon, Frank! :(:

Frater Perdurabo
07-16-2004, 08:35 PM
Of course, no one can "replace" Frank's production. But it's not Frank's power that most needs to be replaced. It is his ability to get on base.

Jason Kendall would be the perfect "replacement." Yes, he has a big contract. But he wouldn't cost much in terms of prospects. He plays an uber-important defensive position and can get on base at a nice clip at the top of the order for Maggs, Lee, Valentin and Konerko. In the meantime, Maggs can continue to DH while Borchard plays right.

Lip Man 1
07-16-2004, 08:42 PM
I'll be curious to read what the explinations are for this, what might have caused it, how long he may have had it and whether or not it was missed in previous exams. A month seems a long time to miss a fracture in the foot and to have the guy keep playing on it.

With respect, to me that's more important then Williams' comments about being a 'decoy'. I'd like to know if this was a misdiagnosis or just one of those things.

Lip

beckett21
07-16-2004, 08:43 PM
I can't wait to hear what WSI's resident podiatrist, Beckett21, has to say on this one.

If Frank has a stress fracture, could he have even *walked* on that foot without excruciating pain? Was he risking further injury leaving it untended, including possible muscle and ligament damage from trying to walk on it without proper steps to immobilize the fractured bone?*runs in out of bullpen* :cool:

I"ll do my best here, but as we have already learned *a little information is a dangerous thing* so please I implore you to take my words with an appropriate grain of salt.

I have to believe that there are multiple things going on here, since so much was made of the ankle. However there is no way I can speculate as to how bad the condition of the arthritis is in his ankle, and how much of a part it will play in his recovery process. Rest will of course be a good thing for the ankle however.

Stress fractures, as others have already mentioned, are tricky to diagnose. X-ray findings lag behind *real time* by about two weeks, and oftentimes they are not seen until the healing process has already begun. Therefore, a stress fracture is often what we call a *clinical* diagnosis, meaning that it is diagnosed by virtue of symptoms and history, i.e. history of injury, recent increase in activity, etc. So in the *real world* we may treat a stress fracture as such without actually seeing it. Often, by the time you see them on X-rays, they are healing.

That said, the Sox medical staff would no doubt have a full arsenal of diagnostic tests at their disposal that would facilitate diagnosis, such as MRI and nuclear imaging (bone scans). Still, this may not be diagnosed with 100% certainty as an MRI may not be conclusive, and bone scans tend to be very sensitive but nonspecific. So a bone scan will tell you there is a *hot spot* or an area of increased activity, but it cannot tell you exactly what the cause of this is. It is through the use of these multiple imaging studies that this is all put together. No one test is absolute. And again, this facilitates diagnosis--but it is not a guarantee.

Depending on which bone is fractured (there are 26 bones in the human foot) the timetable of 6-8 weeks is accurate. Given Frank's size and stature, I personally would agree with the more conservative estimate of 8 weeks, or two months. I don't know which bone is fractured, or where; that may or may not make a difference. Could be up to 12 weeks, effectively the balance of the season.

To answer your point, PHG, you are correct in the fact that he was most likely in excruciating pain anytime he put any weight on his foot. There is always a risk that a stress fracture can worsen and become a complete fracture, so not to judge either way I don't think Frank can be faulted for not wanting to sit in the dugout as a decoy. It is possible to walk with a stress fracture, but generally there is pain with every step. The pain usually intensifies over time, so initially it may not feel like anything more than a bruise. The only way to heal a stress fracture fully is REST and TIME. Surgery is always a remote possibility, (see Michael Bennett, Vikings RB last season) but unlikely. If you come back too soon....you get the idea. Nature plays by it's own rules.

Since I don't know which bone is fractured, nor do I know the status of his ankle, I hesitate to estimate when he will be back. Sept. 15 is plausible, if that is the only problem here. But I don't know if that is the only thing going on here.

Naturally, I am always going to want to side with the medical staff. Honestly I have no way of knowing if they could have diagnosed this any sooner or not. It may have been suspected but not confirmed, I don't know. It is unfair of me to criticize another physician when I do not have access to the medical record, so I will not pass judgment on this one. But stress fractures can be a confounding diagnosis. It's not like they missed something obvious. I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. But certainly everyone has a right to their opinion, it is a frustrating situation.

Hope this helps. Thanks for bearing with me. If I am able to clarify anything I would be happy to do so to the best of my ability, but remember that I have no inside information so I am basically making an educated assumption.

beckett21
07-16-2004, 08:47 PM
I'll be curious to read what the explinations are for this, what might have caused it, how long he may have had it and whether or not it was missed in previous exams. A month seems a long time to miss a fracture in the foot and to have the guy keep playing on it.

With respect, to me that's more important then Williams' comments about being a 'decoy'. I'd like to know if this was a misdiagnosis or just one of those things.

LipLip,

Guess this explains that *pain on the top of the foot,* eh? :(:

Stress fractures can just be annoying at first, like a bruise. So Frank probably tried to play through it, tough it out, and made it worse. People come to me all the time and say that their foot has been hurting for a month, lo and behold they have a stress fx and that is the first time they have sought any treatment. Happens all the time. They think it is going to get better on its own, and instead it gets worse.

Of course, none of those people DH for the Chicago White Sox. :redneck

PaleHoseGeorge
07-16-2004, 08:48 PM
I'll be curious to read what the explinations are for this, what might have caused it, how long he may have had it and whether or not it was missed in previous exams. A month seems a long time to miss a fracture in the foot and to have the guy keep playing on it.

With respect, to me that's more important then Williams' comments about being a 'decoy'. I'd like to know if this was a misdiagnosis or just one of those things.

LipStress fractures often don't show up on x-rays. It is only after the cartilage begins to build over the crack that any evidence of the fracture can be found.

Hell, in high school I ran cross country for over a month on a fractured leg and didn't know it until I broke the healing leg playing a pick up game of soccer. Guys clear across the field heard the bone snap on that one. The new x-rays showed the cartilage at the point of fracture so they knew it was an old break. Meanwhile I had spent nearly a month popping pills for a misdiagnosis of bursitsis.

It was probably a lucky break to reinjure my leg. There was no guarantee that the bone would have set right if I hadn't worn a cast for 8 weeks.

beckett21
07-16-2004, 08:53 PM
So is the possibility of returning from a stress fracture any different than a
possibility of returning from the previously mentioned surgery? That is, is the
proposed September 15th return date a "best case scenario, but don't really
expect him this year" type of deal (similar to the "possible" 6-8 week post
surgery period)?

Beckett, we need your input...I pretty much answered this in my lengthy post, but since you asked first...:D:

I'll go way out on a limb here and say I honestly don't know. I would like to think that September 15 is a pretty accurate estimate. Better prognosis to me if he avoids surgery, of course. I would say it is reasonable if that is the primary problem.

But again I will reiterate that nothing is guaranteed, these timeframes are good estimates but can vary from 2-4 weeks give or take.

We doctors like to give ourselves plenty of margin for error. :dtroll:

:)

beckett21
07-16-2004, 08:56 PM
Stress fractures often don't show up on x-rays. It is only after the cartilage begins to build over the crack that any evidence of the fracture can be found.

Hell, in high school I ran cross country for over a month on a fractured leg and didn't know it until I broke the healing leg playing a pick up game of soccer. Guys clear across the field heard the bone snap on that one. The new x-rays showed the cartilage at the point of fracture so they knew it was an old break. Meanwhile I had spent nearly a month popping pills for a misdiagnosis of bursitsis.

It was probably a lucky break to reinjure my leg. There was no guarantee that the bone would have set right if I hadn't worn a cast for 8 weeks.
Bingo. Absolutely correct.

What you see is called *periosteal reaction,* which is the formation of new bone/bone callous to bridge the gap. You can't usually see the fracture.

On a side note: PHG, that had to hurt like HELL! :o:

PaleHoseGeorge
07-16-2004, 09:00 PM
*runs in out of bullpen* :cool:

I"ll do my best here, but as we have already learned *a little information is a dangerous thing* so please I implore you to take my words with an appropriate grain of salt.....
Thanks for taking time to explain this, Beck. Very helpful and greatly appreciated.

You confirmed what I suspected and what I know from personal experience, albeit 25 years ago and without the specialized technology a million dollar ballplayer would have at his disposal. Stress fractures often don't become obvious until days or weeks after the injury. Meanwhile they hurt like hell and nobody can say exactly why.

Lip Man 1
07-16-2004, 09:02 PM
PHG says: "Guys clear across the field heard the bone snap on that one."

That's like when I was in the Arlington Stadium press box for the opening series of 1983. Jim Kern threw a pitch that went all the way back to the screen and we heard the sound up there even with a full house. He then fell on the mound holding his elbow in agony.

Not a pretty sight and it ended his career.

Lip

beckett21
07-16-2004, 09:08 PM
Thanks for taking time to explain this, Beck. Very helpful and greatly appreciated.

You confirmed what I suspected and what I know from personal experience, albeit 25 years ago and without the specialized technology a million dollar ballplayer would have at his disposal. Stress fractures often don't become obvious until days or weeks after the injury. Meanwhile they hurt like hell and nobody can say exactly why.
My pleasure PHG. Glad to put that education to some good use!:redneck

I HATE stress fractures. They frustrate patients and doctors alike.

I'll gladly offer my experience anytime I can. Always feel free to ask, the worst thing you'll get out of me is a very wordy *I don't know.* :D:

PaleHoseGeorge
07-16-2004, 09:08 PM
On a side note: PHG, that had to hurt like HELL! :o:
It's cross country, baby. It's suppose to hurt. :wink:

The few...
The proud...
The skinny little runts none of the cheerleaders will give the time of day to...
The high school cross country team.

:)

Win1ForMe
07-16-2004, 09:24 PM
I pretty much answered this in my lengthy post, but since you asked first...:D:

I'll go way out on a limb here and say I honestly don't know. I would like to think that September 15 is a pretty accurate estimate. Better prognosis to me if he avoids surgery, of course. I would say it is reasonable if that is the primary problem.

But again I will reiterate that nothing is guaranteed, these timeframes are good estimates but can vary from 2-4 weeks give or take.

We doctors like to give ourselves plenty of margin for error. :dtroll:

:)Yeah, thanks for the input, much appreciated. I was curious because this
really puts Kenny in a bind. If there's a chance Frank returns at the end of
the year, acquiring a big time DH bat (Delgado) would seem out of the
question. Afterall, one guy would have to sit when and IF Frank comes back,
and trading for Delgado only for him to wind up as an insurance policy doesn't
seem worth it.

MisterB
07-16-2004, 10:38 PM
not good news, but they can overcome it. He is not a big of a loss as ordonez was and they did ok during that. Maybe they make an additional move. Plus dont forget we have the great Borchard (teal)The Sox were 17-19 with Ordonez out. Do you think 82 wins can win the division?

The skinny little runts none of the cheerleaders will give the time of day to...We've seen Mrs. PHG, you did alright in the end.:D:

gobears1987
07-16-2004, 10:40 PM
There goes the world series. you are officially a moron

Nard
07-17-2004, 01:50 AM
Stress fractures are the biggest pain in the ass.

I played bball on one in my ankle for about six months with just nagging, nagging, slightly increasing as the weeks go on, pain. Though it's probably gonna be a different story for a 270 lber.

Doc put it in a cast for two months and the damn thing still hurts to this day, even with time/rest/brace all that crap.

Let's hope Frank's heals up nice and tidy.

hawkjt
07-17-2004, 02:33 AM
Hey Gobears- you're right, losing frank for the season won't affect our chances for the world series at all. I won't stoop to name-calling.

SSN721
07-17-2004, 08:32 AM
Wow, this is really depressing. Thanks Beckett for all the info on this. I certainly didnt knwo the specifics of an injury of this nature and when I first heard about it I wanted to call out the medical staff like a lot of people are on this board. But from what you said it sounds like it isnt on them and Frank was doing his damndest to help this team while beingin excruciating pain. Even his detractors have to respect him for that. I dont think it kills this team but of course it is a big blow and I personally think he is a greater loss than Maggs at this point. His OBP was astronomical, it also puts KW in a bind as far as bargaining position because now everyone will know he needs at least one more bat. So if Kenny pulls a trade I would expect he will after overpay being in a bad negotiating position. I wouldn't blame him at all at this point because he doesnt have a choice, it is very obvious now we need another bat in this lineup. I think if we can add 1-2 more bats we are still in a very good position to win the division and do some damage afterwards. That being said, I hope Frank is back for the stretch run. It would really be terrible if he couldnt be a part of this team at the end of the season if we are ready to do something very special. Get well soon Frank. And thanks again for the info Beckett. :smile:

PaleHoseGeorge
07-17-2004, 08:47 AM
Whether Frank comes back in September or not, the offense is broken without him in the middle of the line up, drawing walks and getting everyone else (i.e. the guys that look dead-red every pitch) something better to hit.

#1 priority -- a slow-footed 1B/DH type player to mash the ball. I guarantee every GM in the league is calling Kenny peddling theirs. These type of guys come a dime a dozen and the Sox need one. At bare minimum KW needs to make this sort of move, like he did in '01 getting Jose Canseco.

#2 priority -- a OBP player, possibly to lead-off. This will cost the Sox more than filling priority #1, but the effect on the line up will be just as good, probably even better.

#3 priority -- a rightfielder. The Sox simply can't expect to be in the playoffs running guys like Joe Borchard out there for 3 months. If Maggs can play the field everyday, this problem will solve itself. In the meantime it is a gaping hole.

I won't even speculate who is available to fill any of these positions, but the trading deadline is looming. If Kenny "decoy" Williams would stop pretending he is a doctor, maybe he'll have time to get the job done.

:KW
"I'm not a doctor, but asswipes like Joe Cowley are more than happy to believe me as though I were one."

Sox Mobile
07-17-2004, 09:17 AM
Pale Hose George, good ideas for solutions to beef up the team. i esp like your statement about every GM calling Kenny "decoy" Williams up to peddle their wares after learning of Frank on the DL. thats food for thought.

i hope KDW can weed through the offers better than he did the doctors reports on Franks foot.

i have the answeer to the burning question everyone is asking.........wheres the offense?

evidently in the teams haste to gain the favor of Williams, and make Frank look bad all in one shot, they all have been making like decoys!!

hey Kenny.....look at me! im warming the bench real good eh boss?

( i might be a just a little stressed about the Big Hurt and the Big hole in our lineup)

SSN721
07-17-2004, 09:35 AM
Whether Frank comes back in September or not, the offense is broken without him in the middle of the line up, drawing walks and getting everyone else (i.e. the guys that look dead-red every pitch) something better to hit.

#1 priority -- a slow-footed 1B/DH type player to mash the ball. I guarantee every GM in the league is calling Kenny peddling theirs. These type of guys come a dime a dozen and the Sox need one. At bare minimum KW needs to make this sort of move, like he did in '01 getting Jose Canseco.

#2 priority -- a OBP player, possibly to lead-off. This will cost the Sox more than filling priority #1, but the effect on the line up will be just as good, probably even better.

#3 priority -- a rightfielder. The Sox simply can't expect to be in the playoffs running guys like Joe Borchard out there for 3 months. If Maggs can play the field everyday, this problem will solve itself. In the meantime it is a gaping hole.

I won't even speculate who is available to fill any of these positions, but the trading deadline is looming. If Kenny "decoy" Williams would stop pretending he is a doctor, maybe he'll have time to get the job done.

:KW
"I'm not a doctor, but asswipes like Joe Cowley are more than happy to believe me as though I were one."

These are all great ideas, completely agree, hopefully he can sort through all the offers he will shurely be getting now. i just hate to think what will have to give up with other teams knowing the state of desperation we are in right now for a player with high OBP. I do agree that your #1 need should be a lot cheaper to fill. I hope so because we will need a lot more to fill need #2.

Nick@Nite
07-17-2004, 09:37 AM
Depending on which bone is fractured (there are 26 bones in the human foot) the timetable of 6-8 weeks is accurate. Given Frank's size and stature, I personally would agree with the more conservative estimate of 8 weeks, or two months. I don't know which bone is fractured, or where; that may or may not make a difference. Could be up to 12 weeks, effectively the balance of the season.
Per the link, it was the navicular bone in his left foot... any more insight?

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20040716&content_id=801561&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp

Win1ForMe
07-17-2004, 11:10 AM
#1 priority -- a slow-footed 1B/DH type player to mash the ball. I guarantee every GM in the league is calling Kenny peddling theirs. These type of guys come a dime a dozen and the Sox need one. At bare minimum KW needs to make this sort of move, like he did in '01 getting Jose Canseco.

#2 priority -- a OBP player, possibly to lead-off. This will cost the Sox more than filling priority #1, but the effect on the line up will be just as good, probably even better. Good post, PHG, but I would have those two priorities reversed. A "slow-footed
1B/DH type" only becomes a #1 priority if he can draw walks and get on base
similar to Frank. So I would argue those guys are not "a dime a dozen" and really
can't think of one that would be available outside of Delgado.

If Kenny were to settle for a masher type (without a good OBP), perhaps he
can trade for Matt Stairs and Tony G. from the Royals. That would be a
decent trade, wouldn't cost us much, and Tony/Uribe would ensure that
neither Valentin nor Willie have to play against lefties.

Yes, I love to speculate.:smile:

beckett21
07-17-2004, 11:18 AM
Per the link, it was the navicular bone in his left foot... any more insight?

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20040716&content_id=801561&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jspThanks for adding that info.

The navicular bone is basically one of the bones that makes up the arch. It is a crescent-shaped bone in what is considered the midfoot. Into the navicular attaches the posterior tibial tendon, which is the primary tendon in the foot which supports the arch/instep. This tendon exerts a lot of pull on the navicular, so theoretically without proper immobilization this could delay healing. But a lot of stress is put on this tendon with just standing or walking.

8 weeks is still a reasonable estimate, as far as playing goes. But even if he does come back, and even if the fracture heals, this thing is going to dog Frank for months. As others here who have had stress fractures can attest. Meaning, I doubt he will be at 100% in 8 weeks, but he may be well enough to play. Hopefully.

Frank probably hasn't been at 100% in many years, so as far as affecting his performance hard to say.

All that can be done now is wait, unfortunately. As mentioned in the link, they should have a better idea in 4 weeks.

beckett21
07-17-2004, 11:26 AM
To just expand a little on my last point (sorry if I am boring here!):


Since the posterior tibial tendon attaches to the navicular, this is a very common area to develop tendonitis. Usually, pain in this area is considered tendonitis until proven otherwise. I can't say that it is very often that I see a stress fracture in a navicular; but I see tendonitis in that area virtually on a daily basis.

I can clearly see how this may have clouded the definitive diagnosis.

Carry on. :redneck

hawkjt
07-17-2004, 11:32 AM
Very nice job Doc. Thanks

kittle42
07-17-2004, 12:10 PM
ELECT CRAZY CARL FOR DH!!!
http://montreal.expos.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_113946.jpg
"Come on Kenny, get me out of this hell-hole!!!"
I compltetly agree. KW has *got* to get someone in here asap, and Ladies Love Crazy Carl.

Frankfan4life
07-17-2004, 12:17 PM
I just want to say I never felt so hopeless about this season as I do right now. Without the Big Hurt's ability to get on base, we're in Big Trouble.

My best wishes for a speedy recovery Frank!

Now I'm going to go back to my fetal position for a while. :whiner:

eurotrash35
07-17-2004, 12:17 PM
Thanks for all the medical info beckett. :cool:

Deadguy
07-17-2004, 12:50 PM
To just expand a little on my last point (sorry if I am boring here!):


Since the posterior tibial tendon attaches to the navicular, this is a very common area to develop tendonitis. Usually, pain in this area is considered tendonitis until proven otherwise. I can't say that it is very often that I see a stress fracture in a navicular; but I see tendonitis in that area virtually on a daily basis.

I can clearly see how this may have clouded the definitive diagnosis.

Carry on. :redneckThanks for all the insight. It's nice to come to a message board such as this and receive intelligent information about an injury that most of us would feel like we were being left in the dark about, if we simply had to rely on the information provided by occasionally biased and clueless sportswriters.

Just one more question. Is this something that will affect Thomas' performance for the rest of his career? Is it realistic for us to pencil in Thomas for 40 homer, 100 walk seasons for the next couple of years, or are those days gone forever? I know you can't give a proper prognosis, since you haven't worked on Thomas directly, but would it be possible for Thomas to be close to 100% by ST of next year?

I know you mentioned that this is something that might have been bothering him for 5-10 years (which may help to explain his decline since 1997), but he did have an OPS close to 1.100 before he suffered this injury, indicating that he was close to his peak levels of the mid 90s. And even with respect to last year's performance, he was still 6th in the league in OPS. OF course, Thomas will be 37 next ear, so a decline can be expected regardless.

Lip Man 1
07-17-2004, 12:58 PM
In Saturday's Daily Southtown Joe Cowley has a story on Thomas and also says that Williams had talked to Montreal about Everett even before Thomas got hurt...now apparently he is intensifiying his attempts to get Carl back as DH.

Lip

DickAllen72
07-17-2004, 01:51 PM
In Saturday's Daily Southtown Joe Cowley has a story on Thomas and also says that Williams had talked to Montreal about Everett even before Thomas got hurt...now apparently he is intensifiying his attempts to get Carl back as DH.

Lip

Hurray! Finally we'll have at least one gamer on the team.
:bandance:

DickAllen72
07-17-2004, 01:54 PM
I hope we can package Borchard, Rauch, Burke or something similar for Livan Hernandez, Brian Schneider and Carl Everett. That trade plugs a lot of holes.

samram
07-17-2004, 01:57 PM
I hope we can package Borchard, Rauch, Burke or something similar for Livan Hernandez, Brian Schneider and Carl Everett. That trade plugs a lot of holes.
True, and I would make that deal in a second. The problem is we just don't know what MLB will allow to be dealt away from the Expos as they prepare to move. I don't think they want to go to Virginia or DC with much less than they have now. I do think Everett will come pretty cheaply though.

South Side
07-17-2004, 01:58 PM
I hope we can package Borchard, Rauch, Burke or something similar for Livan Hernandez, Brian Schneider and Carl Everett. That trade plugs a lot of holes.
Burke?? Who do you think will cover catching then? Old man Alomar's knees can't catch everyday and Mr. Ben Davis' .086 BA isn't scaring any pitchers.

DickAllen72
07-17-2004, 02:16 PM
True, and I would make that deal in a second. The problem is we just don't know what MLB will allow to be dealt away from the Expos as they prepare to move. I don't think they want to go to Virginia or DC with much less than they have now. I do think Everett will come pretty cheaply though.

I'm thinking they'd want to dump Everett's salary, and I heard Livan is on the trading block (why I don't know). I'm figuring MLB might want the Expos to make a new start with young prospects and a low team salary to make the team more attractive to investors.

Borchard is supposedly still seen as a good prospect by baseball people as is Rauch. Burke would just be a throw in they can either use on the bench or send to the minors to take the place of whomever they bring up to take Schneider's spot. If we have to throw in another minor leaguer or two, go ahead.

Frater Perdurabo
07-17-2004, 02:38 PM
True, and I would make that deal in a second. The problem is we just don't know what MLB will allow to be dealt away from the Expos as they prepare to move. I don't think they want to go to Virginia or DC with much less than they have now. I do think Everett will come pretty cheaply though.
That's the kind of deal the Sox need to make. I bet they could get Schneider, Everett and Hernandez a lot cheaper than Randy Johnson alone, simply because of the demand for RJ.

If the Sox are going to get a masher DH for the middle of the lineup, he MUST be left-handed. The Sox do not need another slow, right-handed hitter.

Livan Hernandez isn't the equal of Johnson, but he has more post-season experience.

Isn't Schneider young and left-handed? That too is a plus.

samram
07-17-2004, 03:07 PM
That's the kind of deal the Sox need to make. I bet they could get Schneider, Everett and Hernandez a lot cheaper than Randy Johnson alone, simply because of the demand for RJ.

If the Sox are going to get a masher DH for the middle of the lineup, he MUST be left-handed. The Sox do not need another slow, right-handed hitter.

Livan Hernandez isn't the equal of Johnson, but he has more post-season experience.

Isn't Schneider young and left-handed? That too is a plus.
Yeah, he's 27 and left-handed. He's hitting .248 with 9 HRs and 23 RBI. I would really like that deal if it could be done, and the payroll additions would be relatively insignificant, hopefully, when matched against projected revenues. If it took Borchard and Rauch, that's fine. They may end up being very good players, but at 25, neither has shown anything that would make them untouchable.

daveeym
07-17-2004, 03:11 PM
Two Words - Ewing Theory (http://espn.go.com/page2/s/simmons/010509.html)

Jjav829
07-17-2004, 03:15 PM
Burke?? Who do you think will cover catching then? Old man Alomar's knees can't catch everyday and Mr. Ben Davis' .086 BA isn't scaring any pitchers.
That's why he added Brian Schneider in the deal. I wouldn't mind getting him, though I'm not sure that the Expos would trade Schneider.

duke of dorwood
07-17-2004, 03:23 PM
Just be glad we are replacing a DH and not a position player

beckett21
07-17-2004, 05:59 PM
Thanks for all the insight. It's nice to come to a message board such as this and receive intelligent information about an injury that most of us would feel like we were being left in the dark about, if we simply had to rely on the information provided by occasionally biased and clueless sportswriters.

Just one more question. Is this something that will affect Thomas' performance for the rest of his career? Is it realistic for us to pencil in Thomas for 40 homer, 100 walk seasons for the next couple of years, or are those days gone forever? I know you can't give a proper prognosis, since you haven't worked on Thomas directly, but would it be possible for Thomas to be close to 100% by ST of next year?

I know you mentioned that this is something that might have been bothering him for 5-10 years (which may help to explain his decline since 1997), but he did have an OPS close to 1.100 before he suffered this injury, indicating that he was close to his peak levels of the mid 90s. And even with respect to last year's performance, he was still 6th in the league in OPS. OF course, Thomas will be 37 next ear, so a decline can be expected regardless.First off, to you and all those that thanked me, you are all more than welcome. I really got hooked on this board in the offseason, and I enjoy being able to share some of my knowledge with you guys whenever I can, FWIW. I will do my best not to provide any misinformation, but always understand that medicine is very hands-on and there will always be a limit to just how much I can predict without having any firsthand information. But thanks for the appreciation! :D:

Deadguy, to answer your question it is hard to predict what the future holds for Frank, as you seem to understand. By ST, the stress fracture should not be an issue at all. As far as tendonitis, that is manageable as well and should be pretty well healed. Again, should not be an issue (hopefully).

For me, the long-term question is the ankle and the alleged *bone spurs*. Arthritis is a degenerative process, so by definition it would be worse today than it was 5 years ago; and worse still 5 years from now than it is today. However, *worse* does not necessarily mean *debilitating*. In other words, *cleaning up* the ankle, while it would not make him *100%,* would still be very beneficial. The perceived improvement on his part would most likely be significant. It usually is in someone his age, it's just a matter of how long it lasts.

Depending on how extensive the damage is right now, he could still very well have a few good years left. Given the way he started this season off, I would not doubt if we could still expect a couple more All-Star caliber seasons from him. If he needs surgery on the ankle, and has it in the offseason with ample time to rest, he may come back even better next year than he did this one. It's possible. I wouldn't write him off yet. But of course, with age comes wear and tear, obviously.

Again, now that the issue is apparently the stress fracture I don't know if the ankle is even an issue at all, or if it is just how much. That would be even better. I'd be inclined to think that it is, though.

No matter what, the rest will do everything good right now. Hopefully the stress fracture heals on schedule, and the time off allows the ankle to calm down and he comes back strong down the stretch. That is what I am hoping for.