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Wealz
07-16-2004, 03:25 PM
I can't find the article online though.

Williams, Shaffer, etc... should be held accountable for the deplorable state of our system.

The Tom
07-16-2004, 03:34 PM
That is exactly why i would be a bit weary of giving further young talent up in further trades. Our system needs to be replenished.

Randar68
07-16-2004, 03:35 PM
I can't find the article online though.

Williams, Shaffer, etc... should be held accountable for the deplorable state of our system.
Many of these rankings use depth or W-L records as measures, something the Sox haven't had much of in either of the past several years because they've had to make so many trades.

So, you can take your pick. Sit around for the next 10 years and wait for the prospects to make MLB impacts, or trade them while they're unknown commodities for proven MLB talent. You can't have it both ways, although I'm guessing it won't stop you from bitching about it. I'd like to see where they have the Yankees ranked, because if they're not last, then it immediately invalidates the whole thing.

Wealz
07-16-2004, 04:22 PM
Many of these rankings use depth or W-L records as measures, something the Sox haven't had much of in either of the past several years because they've had to make so many trades.

So, you can take your pick. Sit around for the next 10 years and wait for the prospects to make MLB impacts, or trade them while they're unknown commodities for proven MLB talent. You can't have it both ways, although I'm guessing it won't stop you from bitching about it. I'd like to see where they have the Yankees ranked, because if they're not last, then it immediately invalidates the whole thing.
Reed, Morse, Ring, Francisco, Rupe, Webster, and Quintero were lost in trades. To think those seven were significant enough losses to bankrupt the system is folly.

Where is the top end talent? The system is littered with disappointments and guys who were reaches when drafted. Allen, Borchard, Gonzales, Valido, are the names that spring to mind. Incredibly, Dave Wilder was quoted recently as saying they believe Borchard will be a star. No wonder they're 29th.

Randar68
07-16-2004, 04:28 PM
Reed, Morse, Ring, Francisco, Rupe, Webster, and Quintero were lost in trades. To think those seven were significant enough losses to bankrupt the system is folly.

Where is the top end talent? The system is littered with disappointments and guys who were reaches when drafted. Allen, Borchard, Gonzales, Valido, are the names that spring to mind. Incredibly, Dave Wilder was quoted recently as saying they believe Borchard will be a star. No wonder they're 29th.
Reed was the top prospect in the system when traded, Webster was #4, Francisco is pitching out of the Ranger's bullpen at age 20 (maybe 21) and jumped basically from A-ball. Rupe is a risk/reward prospect, Ring was a first round draft choice (and even if you say he was a reach, which he was, he was no worse than a sadwich pick projection).

The names that spring to mind? Brian Anderson, Ryan Sweeney, Honel and Wing pre-injuries, Brandon McCarthy, Borchard (a Ron Schueler pick, pal), Valido is in his first full season fer chrissakes.

You just don't seem to have any real grasp of the expectations and realistic time-frames that prospects progress/develop at, and it suits your crying and whining tact.

You take half of a team's top 10 prospects and trade them or they are injured within a 12 month window, and no-**** the organization is going to drop in ranking!

Do you go for it now and trade prospects or sit around waiting? KW has shown he's not going to sit around waiting, and that does cost the system, but gives you a better chance to win on the MLB level now. You still didn't answer which you'd prefer, but the first tactic didn't work for Schueler, hopefully the latter works for KW. If they win a WS, are you going to cry and whine about the status of the farm teams?

:dtroll:

rdivaldi
07-16-2004, 04:32 PM
I can't find the article online though.

Williams, Shaffer, etc... should be held accountable for the deplorable state of our system.
Oh please. Baseball America ranked us as the number 1 organization in 2000 and look where those guys got us. Spare us the melodrama...

Wealz
07-16-2004, 04:51 PM
Reed was the top prospect in the system when traded, Webster was #4, Francisco is pitching out of the Ranger's bullpen at age 20 (maybe 21) and jumped basically from A-ball. Rupe is a risk/reward prospect, Ring was a first round draft choice (and even if you say he was a reach, which he was, he was no worse than a sadwich pick projection).

The names that spring to mind? Brian Anderson, Ryan Sweeney, Honel and Wing pre-injuries, Brandon McCarthy, Borchard (a Ron Schueler pick, pal), Valido is in his first full season fer chrissakes.

You just don't seem to have any real grasp of the expectations and realistic time-frames that prospects progress/develop at, and it suits your crying and whining tact.

You take half of a team's top 10 prospects and trade them or they are injured within a 12 month window, and no-**** the organization is going to drop in ranking!

Do you go for it now and trade prospects or sit around waiting? KW has shown he's not going to sit around waiting, and that does cost the system, but gives you a better chance to win on the MLB level now. You still didn't answer which you'd prefer, but the first tactic didn't work for Schueler, hopefully the latter works for KW. If they win a WS, are you going to cry and whine about the status of the farm teams?

:dtroll:
Honel, Reed, Anderson, and Sweeney. That's it. Four highly touted prospects all taken in the first 50 picks. If a player was drafted outside of the top 50 by Shaffer and his crew history tells us there's a real good chance he can't play. That's unacceptable for a middle-of-the-pack revenue team. Borchard will be a star according to Dave Wilder? The Sox scouting and development is need of an overhaul.

Wealz
07-16-2004, 04:53 PM
Oh please. Baseball America ranked us as the number 1 organization in 2000 and look where those guys got us. Spare us the melodrama...
So being rated 29th out of 30 isn't a concern?

maurice
07-16-2004, 05:05 PM
Morse, Francisco, Rupe, Webster, Quintero, Olivo, Munoz, Diaz, McCarthy, Rogowski, Young, Bajenaru, Pacheco, Cotts, and Adkins were not top 50 draft picks by the Sox, IIRC. The prospects KW traded for were not highly touted at the time he acquired them, even if they were drafted in the top 50 by other teams.

Wealz
07-16-2004, 05:32 PM
Buehrle is the only pitcher on the roster drafted by the team and four years into the Williams regime none of his picks are near the majors either. Think about that. If every pick in the Kenny Williams era was a hitter their major league team would be no worse off than they already are.

rdivaldi
07-16-2004, 05:53 PM
So being rated 29th out of 30 isn't a concern?
No, it's not. Farm system rankings are for the most part meaningless. Sure it's nice to be ranked high, but that doesn't guarantee a thing.

rdivaldi
07-16-2004, 06:02 PM
four years into the Williams regime none of his picks are near the majors either.
Considering that the 2002 #1, #2, and #3 picks were traded, and the #1, #2, and #3 picks from 2001 are ALL injured I think you'll have to agree there's a flaw in your statement above.

The Tom
07-16-2004, 06:07 PM
Honel, Reed, Anderson, and Sweeney. That's it. Four highly touted prospects all taken in the first 50 picks. If a player was drafted outside of the top 50 by Shaffer and his crew history tells us there's a real good chance he can't play. That's unacceptable for a middle-of-the-pack revenue team. Borchard will be a star according to Dave Wilder? The Sox scouting and development is need of an overhaul.
How about McCarthy, Fields, Lumsden, Gonzalez, and Nanita. Also, Munoz and Rauch arent finished yet. It's hardly fair to say that Borchard is good for nothing after 3 games with the big club. Walker has worked wonders with our offens, he could do Borchard some good. Also Cotts and Diaz have both shown flashes and havent been given an opportunity to settle in and pitch. Every start or appearance for them determines whether theyll get another appearance. That's a lot of added pressure to an already stressful situation. WE HAVE GUYS, GIVE THEM SOME TIME.

Chisoxfn
07-16-2004, 06:20 PM
This is ridiculous. Sweeney and Anderson have as much upside as a lot of prospects out there and then the Sox have guys like McCarthy, Giovany, Honel, Wing, Munoz, Diaz, etc. They don't have much in the higher levels, which is why I think they are rated low, but they have a lot of guys that have talent down in the lower levels and it will be interesting to see where this system rates in the next few years.

I really am high on a lot of the talent down in A ball and lower.

Wealz
07-16-2004, 11:05 PM
Anderson, Sweeney, McCarthy. Terrific. Compare that to other systems around baseball and you'll find it to be severely lacking. It was below medocre before the trades of Reed, Francisco, Webster, Ring, etc. too. Top end prospects has been virtually non-existent the last 4 years.

Middle-of-the-pack revenues coupled with one of the 3 or 4 worst systems in baseball is a recipe for disaster.

OEO Magglio
07-16-2004, 11:34 PM
So being rated 29th out of 30 isn't a concern?No because these rankings are awful. They had the a's as the number one farm system in baseball and that's completely off. These rankings are dumb and far from the truth.

Wealz
07-16-2004, 11:42 PM
No because these rankings are awful. They had the a's as the number one farm system in baseball and that's completely off. These rankings are dumb and far from the truth.
Where should the A's sytem be ranked? Where should the Sox be?

Daver
07-16-2004, 11:45 PM
Where should the A's sytem be ranked? Where should the Sox be?
You started this stupid argument, you should know.

Do your own homework.

Wealz
07-17-2004, 12:01 AM
You started this stupid argument, you should know.

Do your own homework.
I wasn't the one who disagreed with the rankings in principle, so it isn't my "homework" to do. And how is this a stupid argument? Are the White Sox player development people beyond reproach in your opinion?

OEO Magglio
07-17-2004, 12:16 AM
I wasn't the one who disagreed with the rankings in principle, so it isn't my "homework" to do. And how is this a stupid argument? Are the White Sox player development people beyond reproach in your opinion?It's a stupid argument for one because your obviously arguing something you don't understand much of if you believe these rankings. Second it's a stupid argument because your blaming kenny and shaffer for depleting a farm system that isn't depleted. If your asking me where I think the sox and the a's should be my answer would be both close to the middle of the pact. Believe what you want but the a's and sox farm systems aren't that far off in terms of talent.

Wealz
07-17-2004, 01:08 AM
It's a stupid argument for one because your obviously arguing something you don't understand much of if you believe these rankings. Second it's a stupid argument because your blaming kenny and shaffer for depleting a farm system that isn't depleted. If your asking me where I think the sox and the a's should be my answer would be both close to the middle of the pact. Believe what you want but the a's and sox farm systems aren't that far off in terms of talent.
I'm blaming Williams and mostly Shaffer for bad drafts. Shaffer has been around a long time and his track record at the draft table has been less than stellar to say the least and downright abysmal when you look at the pitchers he's had a part in taking.

Take a look at this taken from his bio:

Shaffer was honored with the Scout of the Year award in 1987, when the Sox selected pitcher Jack McDowell in the first round. During his tenure, the White Sox have selected Mark Buehrle as a draft and follow in the 38th round of 1998 and took Stanford standout Joe Borchard with the 12th pick of the first round in 2000.
McDowell, Buehrle, and the great Joe Borchard are the highlights? That's sad.

jeremyb1
07-18-2004, 12:42 AM
Anderson, Sweeney, McCarthy. Terrific. Compare that to other systems around baseball and you'll find it to be severely lacking. It was below medocre before the trades of Reed, Francisco, Webster, Ring, etc. too. Top end prospects has been virtually non-existent the last 4 years.

Middle-of-the-pack revenues coupled with one of the 3 or 4 worst systems in baseball is a recipe for disaster.

I think 29 out of 30 is a bit of an exageration since there are a lot of horrible systems out there. We've got Rauch and Munoz at AAA and very recently Diaz and Borchard. A lot of teams can't boast that type of major league ready talent. Anderson at AA and Sweeney, Fields, and Rogowski (a huge sleeper when going with a tools based perspective as BA or Sports Weekly use since he's not flashy and they will underrate his outstanding plate discipline) at WS. I think we're definitely in the lower third just not second to last.

There are definitely some players KW has traded (obviously Reed in particular) that I think we sorely miss.

jeremyb1
07-18-2004, 12:54 AM
I'm blaming Williams and mostly Shaffer for bad drafts.

I think we miss Doug Lauman. He was scouting director when we took Reed, Anderson, and Sweeney the last couple years.

Randar68
07-18-2004, 01:05 AM
I think we miss Doug Lauman. He was scouting director when we took Reed, Anderson, and Sweeney the last couple years.
Laumann was terrific in his position.

Wealz won't answer what he wants, a strong MLB team willing to trade its prospects to win now, or a team that drafts, waits, and tries to develop players. You can't have it both ways. KW is clearly running things in the latter method, so bitching about the farm system clearly becomes the simplest reason to bitch and moan about things.

like I said:
:dtroll:

Chisoxfn
07-18-2004, 05:37 AM
Laumann was terrific in his position.

Wealz won't answer what he wants, a strong MLB team willing to trade its prospects to win now, or a team that drafts, waits, and tries to develop players. You can't have it both ways. KW is clearly running things in the latter method, so bitching about the farm system clearly becomes the simplest reason to bitch and moan about things.

like I said:
:dtroll: The farm system has landed the Sox a decent amount of quality players. It got the Sox Marte, Gload (For Wade Parrish...I know, probably a bad example), Garcia, Everett, Alomar Jr., Schoenweis, and I guess you could say Konerko (since Cameron was home grown). Thats just off the top of my head.

Wealz
07-18-2004, 10:52 AM
Laumann was terrific in his position.

Wealz won't answer what he wants, a strong MLB team willing to trade its prospects to win now, or a team that drafts, waits, and tries to develop players. You can't have it both ways. KW is clearly running things in the latter method, so bitching about the farm system clearly becomes the simplest reason to bitch and moan about things.

like I said:
:dtroll:
Aside from Reed, what Kenny Williams era *draft choices* have they traded that are any good?

Wealz
07-18-2004, 10:58 AM
I think we miss Doug Lauman. He was scouting director when we took Reed, Anderson, and Sweeney the last couple years.
Absolutely. Shaffer has a penchant for taking "projectable arms" with premium picks. I guess he's trying to find the next Danny Wright.

Randar68
07-18-2004, 12:12 PM
Aside from Reed, what Kenny Williams era *draft choices* have they traded that are any good?:whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

you don't understand this business one iota. KW's only had what, now 4 draft classes? How many of those would one reasonably expect to have mLB-ready talent?

You still haven't answered, what's your pick:

So, you can take your pick. Sit around for the next 10 years and wait for the prospects to make MLB impacts, or trade them while they're unknown commodities for proven MLB talent.

Wealz
07-18-2004, 12:55 PM
:whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

you don't understand this business one iota. KW's only had what, now 4 draft classes? How many of those would one reasonably expect to have mLB-ready talent?

You still haven't answered, what's your pick:
It's not about being major league ready. Williams era draft picks struggle in the minors.

You're saying that the draft choices that Williams traded away is what is holding the system back? That's moronic. Reed, Ring, Hummell, Webster and Rupe? Ring, Hummell and Webster are much closer to fringe prospects than they are to impact prospects and Rupe is a project.

Shaffer needs to go.

Randar68
07-18-2004, 05:55 PM
It's not about being major league ready. Williams era draft picks struggle in the minors.

You're saying that the draft choices that Williams traded away is what is holding the system back? That's moronic. Reed, Ring, Hummell, Webster and Rupe? Ring, Hummell and Webster are much closer to fringe prospects than they are to impact prospects and Rupe is a project.

Shaffer needs to go.
Shaffer needs to go? Those were Laumann draft picks, no? Get your story straight.

Wealz
07-18-2004, 06:50 PM
Shaffer needs to go? Those were Laumann draft picks, no? Get your story straight.
Yep, Shaffer needs to go. He was scouting director from 1991-2000. You remember that era don't you Randar68? Among other things Jason Dellearo was taken the pick before Lance Berkman during that time. That was ok though since they had OF depth in the organization at the time right?

Laumann was in charge of the '01, '02, and '03 drafts and drafted Reed, Anderson and Sweeney. Shaffer drafted Borchard. 'Nuff said.

Daver
07-18-2004, 07:09 PM
Yep, Shaffer needs to go. He was scouting director from 1991-2000. You remember that era don't you Randar68? Among other things Jason Dellearo was taken the pick before Lance Berkman during that time. That was ok though since they had OF depth in the organization at the time right?

Laumann was in charge of the '01, '02, and '03 drafts and drafted Reed, Anderson and Sweeney. Shaffer drafted Borchard. 'Nuff said.
Schueller insisted on drafting Dellearo, against Shaffers insistence that he would be available in the fifth round.

Jumbotron Ron did the same thing with Mark Johnson.

jeremyb1
07-18-2004, 09:39 PM
Absolutely. Shaffer has a penchant for taking "projectable arms" with premium picks. I guess he's trying to find the next Danny Wright.

Yeah. That drives me nuts. I'm concerned we squandered some of our additional picks in that fashion in the last draft. If you're 22 and you haven't had success in college I'm concerned about your ability to become a Major League player. The sad part is that Wright is the success story of that bunch. Guys like Brian West and Wyatt Allen have fared much more poorly.

SoxxoS
07-18-2004, 10:21 PM
Yeah. That drives me nuts. I'm concerned we squandered some of our additional picks in that fashion in the last draft. If you're 22 and you haven't had success in college I'm concerned about your ability to become a Major League player. The sad part is that Wright is the success story of that bunch. Guys like Brian West and Wyatt Allen have fared much more poorly.
Something in the scouting pitching dept needs to be changed...obviously. Something isn't clicking. Myette, Wright, Ginter, Rauch, West, Allen, Barcelo etc...the most overrated farm system quite possible in MLB history. So much so, BA had us winning the world series in 2004 with an awesome, young rotation.

Randar68
07-18-2004, 10:29 PM
Yep, Shaffer needs to go. He was scouting director from 1991-2000. You remember that era don't you Randar68? Among other things Jason Dellearo was taken the pick before Lance Berkman during that time. That was ok though since they had OF depth in the organization at the time right?

Laumann was in charge of the '01, '02, and '03 drafts and drafted Reed, Anderson and Sweeney. Shaffer drafted Borchard. 'Nuff said.

Yes, i remember that draft, the one where Schueler drafted Dallaero when Shaffer told him he'd be there in the 3rd round if he really wanted him. I also recognize the circumstances surrounding Lance Berkman and only signing as a Senior-to-be because he was drafted by a local team. Shaffer was over-ruled on that pick. What do you want from the man? I prefer Laumann to Shaffer, no doubt, but why cry over spilt milk?

Wealz
07-18-2004, 10:41 PM
Yeah. That drives me nuts. I'm concerned we squandered some of our additional picks in that fashion in the last draft. If you're 22 and you haven't had success in college I'm concerned about your ability to become a Major League player. The sad part is that Wright is the success story of that bunch. Guys like Brian West and Wyatt Allen have fared much more poorly.
The frustrating thing about this is the organization is not asking "is there a better way?" and continue to waste pick after pick in the process.

Everyone's excited about Gio Gonzalez, I can't remember the last high school pitcher that this group has developed, Baldwin maybe? Before that who knows. If you can't develop pitchers, let other teams develop them for you and concentrate on position players.

doublem23
07-18-2004, 11:12 PM
So being rated 29th out of 30 isn't a concern?
The Major League team is in first place right now, so... No.

Randar68
07-18-2004, 11:27 PM
The frustrating thing about this is the organization is not asking "is there a better way?" and continue to waste pick after pick in the process.

Everyone's excited about Gio Gonzalez, I can't remember the last high school pitcher that this group has developed, Baldwin maybe? Before that who knows. If you can't develop pitchers, let other teams develop them for you and concentrate on position players.
Although they didn't draft him, you'd have to admit they developed Garland. Because you've been snake bitten, you can't be gun-shy or hesitant to take who you believe will be the best player when you can. every organization is bitten by injuries or guys who don't meet their physical potential. Even going by stats and performance-based analysis, there are still more misses than hits.

jeremyb1
07-18-2004, 11:39 PM
Something in the scouting pitching dept needs to be changed...obviously. Something isn't clicking. Myette, Wright, Ginter, Rauch, West, Allen, Barcelo etc...the most overrated farm system quite possible in MLB history. So much so, BA had us winning the world series in 2004 with an awesome, young rotation.

That class was dissapointing no doubt but you can't expect all prospects to succeed when the overwhelming majority don't. Wells, Garland, Wright, and Buehrle have all made significant contributions and Ginter, Rauch, and Myette have made it to the majors although without much success.

Wealz
07-19-2004, 05:01 PM
Although they didn't draft him, you'd have to admit they developed Garland. Because you've been snake bitten, you can't be gun-shy or hesitant to take who you believe will be the best player when you can. every organization is bitten by injuries or guys who don't meet their physical potential. Even going by stats and performance-based analysis, there are still more misses than hits.
I'll give you Garland, but he came at a price that was too good to refuse -- Matt Karchner. Even though he's a success story, I think that you'd have to agree that he's devolped slower than any of us would have liked. I understand he's 24, but with as many major league innings as he has under his belt his career performance has been a mild disappointment to this point.

Have the Sox been snake bitten or is it just the nature of drafting pitchers? Minor league pitchers, pitchers in general, suffer career-threatening injuries at a much, much higher rate than position players. When you draft a pitcher not only do you have to hope they develop well, you have to pray that they don't get hurt. For the most part, you don't have to worry about a career-ending injury with a position player.

I think it would behoove a mid-revenue team like the Sox to use their premium picks every year, say first 6-7 rounds, on position players. Let someone else waste millions of dollars developing pitching for you. For instance, if the Sox had hitters in the minors they could have dealt them to the Expos for Vazquez. Or if one of those hitters could have replaced Ordonez, Ordonez could have been used to get a pitcher. I don't think it's essential to develop pitching, but it is essential to have a strong farm system, and position players are the easiest way to do that IMO

Randar68
07-19-2004, 06:52 PM
I'll give you Garland, but he came at a price that was too good to refuse -- Matt Karchner. Even though he's a success story, I think that you'd have to agree that he's devolped slower than any of us would have liked. I understand he's 24, but with as many major league innings as he has under his belt his career performance has been a mild disappointment to this point.

Have the Sox been snake bitten or is it just the nature of drafting pitchers? Minor league pitchers, pitchers in general, suffer career-threatening injuries at a much, much higher rate than position players. When you draft a pitcher not only do you have to hope they develop well, you have to pray that they don't get hurt. For the most part, you don't have to worry about a career-ending injury with a position player.

I think it would behoove a mid-revenue team like the Sox to use their premium picks every year, say first 6-7 rounds, on position players. Let someone else waste millions of dollars developing pitching for you. For instance, if the Sox had hitters in the minors they could have dealt them to the Expos for Vazquez. Or if one of those hitters could have replaced Ordonez, Ordonez could have been used to get a pitcher. I don't think it's essential to develop pitching, but it is essential to have a strong farm system, and position players are the easiest way to do that IMO
I definitely understand that sentiment and it's one of the most frustrating things for organizations as well as fans who follow prospects closely. Do you stop drafting pitchers early altogether? I really don't think that's the way to go. After the first or second round, you don't have many impact players left who are available with any kind of track record.

Elbow injuries are no longer really a long-term issue for pitchers. Shoulder injuries now appear to be the death knell. I think teams still try to draft pitching, and I think one way to approach it is to just trust in the law of large numbers. The chances of drafting impact position players after the first couple rounds is probably less than that for pitchers (haven't looked at actual numbers to support that).

I think position/pitcher, it doesn't matter, really, because after the first 10-20 picks in most drafts, you're going to be getting a player, even in the first round, that is going to have some question-marks. IMO, you always take your highest rated player at your given pick. Financials often get in the way, and how you rate pitching vs. Position prospects is always to play a role. I do have less confidence in Shaffer to land quality pitching, but he is always looking for that HR-pick. You swing and miss a lot, I'm just hoping he starts connecting, LOL!

Win1ForMe
07-19-2004, 07:12 PM
I think it would behoove a mid-revenue team like the Sox to use their premium picks every year, say first 6-7 rounds, on position players. Let someone else waste millions of dollars developing pitching for you. For instance, if the Sox had hitters in the minors they could have dealt them to the Expos for Vazquez. Or if one of those hitters could have replaced Ordonez, Ordonez could have been used to get a pitcher. I don't think it's essential to develop pitching, but it is essential to have a strong farm system, and position players are the easiest way to do that IMOI don't know how feasible that would be for mid-revenue teams. No GM will
trade good, young pitching for position prospects. They'll trade those pitchers
only when they're arbitration eligible or approach free-agency, in which case
you're paying them a lot of money, in which case you can't afford them if
you're a mid-revenue team.

IMO, mid-revenue teams (Florida, Oakland) compete because they've developed good young pitching.

jeremyb1
07-21-2004, 02:49 AM
I'll give you Garland, but he came at a price that was too good to refuse -- Matt Karchner. Even though he's a success story, I think that you'd have to agree that he's devolped slower than any of us would have liked. I understand he's 24, but with as many major league innings as he has under his belt his career performance has been a mild disappointment to this point.

Two thoughts:

1) I don't think you can fault the organization for getting Garland at a great price. For all we know the deal required significant holding out and strong negotiating by Schuler. At a minimum it required patience and level headedness to realize that despite one mediocre season Garland was still a strong prospect.

2) Look at Garland's AAA numbers at Charlotte in '00. His ERA was outstanding but his peripheral stats don't suggest he was dominating AAA hitters. I think it's unfair to peg his slow development to a poor ability to develop young talent as opposed to promoting him prematurely.

Mohoney
07-26-2004, 08:11 PM
Reed was the top prospect in the system when traded, Webster was #4, Francisco is pitching out of the Ranger's bullpen at age 20 (maybe 21) and jumped basically from A-ball. Rupe is a risk/reward prospect, Ring was a first round draft choice (and even if you say he was a reach, which he was, he was no worse than a sadwich pick projection).

The names that spring to mind? Brian Anderson, Ryan Sweeney, Honel and Wing pre-injuries, Brandon McCarthy, Borchard (a Ron Schueler pick, pal), Valido is in his first full season fer chrissakes.

You just don't seem to have any real grasp of the expectations and realistic time-frames that prospects progress/develop at, and it suits your crying and whining tact.

You take half of a team's top 10 prospects and trade them or they are injured within a 12 month window, and no-**** the organization is going to drop in ranking!

Do you go for it now and trade prospects or sit around waiting? KW has shown he's not going to sit around waiting, and that does cost the system, but gives you a better chance to win on the MLB level now. You still didn't answer which you'd prefer, but the first tactic didn't work for Schueler, hopefully the latter works for KW. If they win a WS, are you going to cry and whine about the status of the farm teams?

:dtroll:

Several good points in this post, the strongest point being that Williams didn't draft Borchard. Another strong point is that we gave up some good pitching in Ring, Rupe, and Francisco in trades last year.

Plus, a few of our "prospects" such as Cotts and Adkins are at the MLB level, being rushed in their development to fill pressing needs, and are not factored into the equation.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I am really enamored with our '03 and '04 drafts, and I think that Kenny Williams has shown a lot of potential as a guy who can draft well. This means that, while we never seem top-heavy with AAA talent because we're making trades to better our parent club, our cupboard will continually be restocked.

Kenny Williams is really trying his damndest to run a solid organization while operating with a bottom-third payroll. In my opinion, he's doing it better than Ron Schueler ever did.

gosox41
07-27-2004, 10:20 AM
Several good points in this post, the strongest point being that Williams didn't draft Borchard. Another strong point is that we gave up some good pitching in Ring, Rupe, and Francisco in trades last year.

Plus, a few of our "prospects" such as Cotts and Adkins are at the MLB level, being rushed in their development to fill pressing needs, and are not factored into the equation.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I am really enamored with our '03 and '04 drafts, and I think that Kenny Williams has shown a lot of potential as a guy who can draft well. This means that, while we never seem top-heavy with AAA talent because we're making trades to better our parent club, our cupboard will continually be restocked.

Kenny Williams is really trying his damndest to run a solid organization while operating with a bottom-third payroll. In my opinion, he's doing it better than Ron Schueler ever did.
A couple of points:

1. The Sox are not in the bottom third in payroll. I thought I read somewhere that they are 12th in the majors, but even if it's slightly lower then that they do not have the 20th highest payroll in the league.

2. Time will tell with the Sox 2003 and 2004 draft. But what about 2000-2002? Also, is some here say KW is not running the draft then why give him any credit? Pesonally I think he is. He hires the baseball people around him who share his philosophy.

3. Cotts and Adkins...don't get me started on them. Both were part of bad trades. Cotts is more of a prospect but when the Sox got Adkins he was a 24 year old AAA pitcher with a bad shoulder. Now he's a 26 year old right handed releiver who just isn't all that good.

I'm definitely not as high on Cotts as some are around here. But I'm not willing to give up on him yet.


Bob

SoxxoS
07-27-2004, 12:12 PM
Kenny Williams is really trying his damndest to run a solid organization while operating with a bottom-third payroll. In my opinion, he's doing it better than Ron Schueler ever did.We don't have a bottom third payroll, not even close.

Mohoney
07-27-2004, 05:23 PM
We don't have a bottom third payroll, not even close.

We did have one when Kenny Williams first started, though, didn't we?

I could have sworn that the '01 and '02 payrolls were bottom-third.

Plus, Kenny was also handcuffed with a bad manager.

I'm just trying to point out that Kenny Williams is not as bad as some make him out to be.

SoxxoS
07-27-2004, 05:38 PM
I agree with that, I am a big KW advocate.

gosox41
07-27-2004, 11:41 PM
We did have one when Kenny Williams first started, though, didn't we?

I could have sworn that the '01 and '02 payrolls were bottom-third.

Plus, Kenny was also handcuffed with a bad manager.

I'm just trying to point out that Kenny Williams is not as bad as some make him out to be.
In 2001 the Sox opened the season with a payroll of just over $60 mill.

In 2002 it was in the mid-50's

2003 was $52 mill.

I don't know where things ranked, but at present time the Sox aren't anywhere near bottom of the heap in payroll. And the present time is all I care about now.

BTW, you said you liked KW and that the Sox had a bad manager. Who was it who signed this manager to a contract extension???? :D:


Bob

Daver
07-27-2004, 11:43 PM
Who was it who signed this manager to a contract extension???? :D:


Bob
Jerry Reinsdorf.

gosox41
07-29-2004, 09:16 AM
Jerry Reinsdorf.
JR is paying his salary. It was KW who wanted to have Manuel here for the long term...he said so at the Press Conference. But then again it was JR who hired KW.

The way I understand it is KW runs the baseball operations. JR gives sets the budget. What KW does with it is up to him.


Bob