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JDP
07-16-2004, 09:28 AM
The Arizona Diamondbacks today have made the second round of preliminary phone calls to those parties that are interested in Randy Johnson. The DBacks have reported to have made such follow-up calls to the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, White Sox and Mets.

Also reportedly, Arizona has put on the plate what they are looking for: young catching, corner infielders and pitching.


Now, who does this leave from the Sox to be traded? Any thoughts on if the Sox ante up a Cotts/Diaz/Crede or Garland/Cotts/CIF prospect package?

Flight #24
07-16-2004, 09:31 AM
The Arizona Diamondbacks today have made the second round of preliminary phone calls to those parties that are interested in Randy Johnson. The DBacks have reported to have made such follow-up calls to the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, White Sox and Mets.

Also reportedly, Arizona has put on the plate what they are looking for: young catching, corner infielders and pitching.


Now, who does this leave from the Sox to be traded? Any thoughts on if the Sox ante up a Cotts/Diaz/Crede or Garland/Cotts/CIF prospect package?
Uribe plays 3B, how about including him? Cotts+Diaz+Sweeney+Uribe for RJ+low level prospects (KW usually gets good ones). Or I guess I could be persuaded to part with Crede, but I'd MUCH rather deal Uribe. I think Joe's still got a full season like his 2d halves coming......but that's probably why the DBacks woudl want him over Juan.

MisterB
07-16-2004, 09:31 AM
The Arizona Diamondbacks today have made the second round of preliminary phone calls to those parties that are interested in Randy Johnson. The DBacks have reported to have made such follow-up calls to the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, White Sox and Mets.

Also reportedly, Arizona has put on the plate what they are looking for: young catching, corner infielders and pitching.


Now, who does this leave from the Sox to be traded? Any thoughts on if the Sox ante up a Cotts/Diaz/Crede or Garland/Cotts/CIF prospect package?
Basically they want everything we DON'T have (except maybe the pitching). I guess no RJ for us, then...

JDP
07-16-2004, 09:33 AM
Uribe plays 3B, how about including him? Cotts+Diaz+Sweeney+Uribe for RJ+low level prospects (KW usually gets good ones). Or I guess I could be persuaded to part with Crede, but I'd MUCH rather deal Uribe. I think Joe's still got a full season like his 2d halves coming......but that's probably why the DBacks woudl want him over Juan.
It'd be nice to add in Sweeney to "sweeten the pot", but I'm not sure how receptive they'd be for OFs in the package.

Cotts/Garland/Diaz/Uribe could probably get it done.

Baby Fisk
07-16-2004, 09:36 AM
The Arizona Diamondbacks today have made the second round of preliminary phone calls to those parties that are interested in Randy Johnson. The DBacks have reported to have made such follow-up calls to the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, White Sox and Mets.

Also reportedly, Arizona has put on the plate what they are looking for: young catching, corner infielders and pitching.


Now, who does this leave from the Sox to be traded? Any thoughts on if the Sox ante up a Cotts/Diaz/Crede or Garland/Cotts/CIF prospect package?
I'm not ripping on you, but what's the source of this info?

HomerCoach
07-16-2004, 09:38 AM
Cotts/Garland/Diaz/Uribe could probably get it done.
NO WAY! I will FLIP if this is done!:angry::angry::angry:

SoxxoS
07-16-2004, 09:39 AM
I am all for going for it, but if we aren't going to resign Maggs, Sweeney and Anderson have to be untouchable, IMO.

JDP
07-16-2004, 09:45 AM
I'm not ripping on you, but what's the source of this info?Not two of the greatest sources in the world, but still news sources:

------------------------------------------------------------
Chicago Tribune (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-040715rogers,1,2141087.column?coll=cs-cubs-utility)

Any team wanting to acquire Johnson faces three hurdles.

The first is fitting his $16 million salary into the payroll through 2005, which is made somewhat easier by him deferring $6 million a year. The second is meeting Arizona's trade demands, believed to be young catching, corner infielders and pitching. The third, and maybe the most difficult, is convincing Johnson to waive his no-trade clause.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/212719p-183212c.html)

The Diamondbacks yesterday made their second round of phone calls to potential Randy Johnson suitors - including the Mets.

kjhanson
07-16-2004, 09:45 AM
It'd be nice to add in Sweeney to "sweeten the pot", but I'm not sure how receptive they'd be for OFs in the package.

Cotts/Garland/Diaz/Uribe could probably get it done.
This is a lot of talent to trade off, and cheap talent at that. It also creates more problems rather than solving them. We trade three major league players. We can't do that if we only get one in return (See the Diamondbacks trade for Richie Sexson...it cost them dearly). Johnson is a huge upgrade over Garland, but we're still left with Schoenweis in the 5 spot, which I'm not a big fan of. Getting past that though, who's going to be our lefty out of the pen? Who's our utility infielder? Are you really willing to replace Neal Cotts with Vic Darensbourg? Who pitches three innings when we have an implosion then? Jon Adkins can do it, but that'd be his outing for the week. Is Kelly Dransfeldt anywhere close to being able to match the production of Juan at the utility spot? Didn't think so.

If this deal were made, it'd essentially be:
Johnson replacing Garland
Dransfeldt replacing Uribe (with Willie starting)
Darensbourg replacing Cotts (Leaving us with only Adkins as the long reliever....meaning when he pitches three innings, we see Gas Can Jackson the rest of the week)

Johnson is a huge upgrade, but not enough to make up for the dropoff between our major league talent and our minor league call ups.

JDP
07-16-2004, 09:47 AM
I am all for going for it, but if we aren't going to resign Maggs, Sweeney and Anderson have to be untouchable, IMO.
It appears as if OF prospects might not play into the picture, if Arizona is indeed in only from a pool of SP, CIF and C prospects.

Cotts/Garland/Diaz/Uribe?

Baby Fisk
07-16-2004, 09:50 AM
It appears as if OF prospects might not play into the picture, if Arizona is indeed in only from a pool of SP, CIF and C prospects.

Cotts/Garland/Diaz/Uribe?This seems excessive, but we won't get RJ without selling the farm, you all know that, right??? :(:

(thx for sources, JDP)

Flight #24
07-16-2004, 09:53 AM
It appears as if OF prospects might not play into the picture, if Arizona is indeed in only from a pool of SP, CIF and C prospects.

Cotts/Garland/Diaz/Uribe?
Unless we get REALLY creative, something like:

Shoeny+Sweeney to Yanks for Dioner Navarro(C)+cash

Navarro+Cotts+Uribe+Diaz/Rauch to DBacks for RJ+low level prospects

Yanks get another starting option plus a good prospect that they can potentially flip for another pitcher, and they ensure the BoSox don't get RJ (NOTE: This assumes that the Yanks don't have the prospects to get RJ themselves). DBacks get good young pitching, a UIF who can play 3B and has offensive potential, and a good C prospect (and dump RJ's cash).

Sox keep their team together, losing a UIF (replaceable), and a bullpen arm (harder to replace), but worth losing RJ for. The rotation is the best in baseball (especially with Prior out). ELo/Garland can fight about who's the 4th & 5th starter.

Then when Maggs walks, we have to find a cheaper option in RF, but hopefully we're doing so with a significantly greater payroll after a huge attendance boost and hopefully a deep playoff run.

JDP
07-16-2004, 09:53 AM
This is a lot of talent to trade off, and cheap talent at that. It also creates more problems rather than solving them. We trade three major league players. We can't do that if we only get one in return (See the Diamondbacks trade for Richie Sexson...it cost them dearly). Johnson is a huge upgrade over Garland, but we're still left with Schoenweis in the 5 spot, which I'm not a big fan of. Getting past that though, who's going to be our lefty out of the pen? Who's our utility infielder? Are you really willing to replace Neal Cotts with Vic Darensbourg? Who pitches three innings when we have an implosion then? Jon Adkins can do it, but that'd be his outing for the week. Is Kelly Dransfeldt anywhere close to being able to match the production of Juan at the utility spot? Didn't think so.There is still time to wheel-and-deal on the market. If having to address a bullpen arm or two and find a suitable utility player are the Sox' main "concerns" after getting RJ, things are looking up.



Johnson replacing Garland
Dransfeldt replacing Uribe (with Willie starting)
Darensbourg replacing Cotts (Leaving us with only Adkins as the long reliever....meaning when he pitches three innings, we see Gas Can Jackson the rest of the week)

Johnson is a huge upgrade, but not enough to make up for the dropoff between our major league talent and our minor league call ups.With a rotation of Johnson/Buehrle/Garcia/Loaiza, does it matter who rotates in and out of the 5th spot all that much? Pick up a middle-to-end of the rotation SP before the 31st if so desired, keep Schoeney in the pen and that leaves Marte/Schoeney as the LHs in the pen, or like you mentioned, have Darensbourg give it a shot. Also, we'd still have Rauch -- forget about him?

Like I said, if the complaints are because of a bullpen arm and a utility positions, then we're really starting to pick at things.

SSN721
07-16-2004, 10:00 AM
Cotts/Garland/Diaz/Uribe could probably get it done.

No F'ing way, I cant beleive everyone is so willing to dump Garland, we lose hima nd we have the same damn pitching troubles. This deal has to get done without dumping someone from the rotation if it will get done at all. Even Cotts Diaz and Uribe woul dbe excessive to me. Its Arizona that wants the salary releif, I dont see how their demands can be that high when not many other teams could even put together a package that good that waould want and/or pay for Johnson. If that is the price we have to pay I dont want him. Trading Garland would come to bite us in the future, I know it. As much as I like KW if he got rid of Garland for Johnson I think I would have to turn in my KW fan club card.

JDP
07-16-2004, 10:00 AM
This seems excessive, but we won't get RJ without selling the farm, you all know that, right??? :(:

(thx for sources, JDP)No problem on the quote. Sorry I didn't originally include it.

Are you of the breed that wishes to hold onto, for the most part, a futile farm system and hang around .500 each and every year, only to be teased of playoff talk from November through September -- then come actual playoff time, watch someone other than the Sox play in the playoffs??

SSN721
07-16-2004, 10:04 AM
There is still time to wheel-and-deal on the market. If having to address a bullpen arm or two and find a suitable utility player are the Sox' main "concerns" after getting RJ, things are looking up.


With a rotation of Johnson/Buehrle/Garcia/Loaiza, does it matter who rotates in and out of the 5th spot all that much? Pick up a middle-to-end of the rotation SP before the 31st if so desired, keep Schoeney in the pen and that leaves Marte/Schoeney as the LHs in the pen, or like you mentioned, have Darensbourg give it a shot. Also, we'd still have Rauch -- forget about him?

Like I said, if the complaints are because of a bullpen arm and a utility positions, then we're really starting to pick at things.

The last few years the 5th spot is the thorn in our side, and now it is an easy hole to fill? How is that. We need to get Johnson w/o giving up anyone in the starting rotation. I just think we are writing off how easy it will be to pick up players we can potentially lose in this trade. Just seems like a lot to sacrifice for a calculated risk like this.

JDP
07-16-2004, 10:04 AM
No F'ing way, I cant beleive everyone is so willing to dump Garland, we lose hima nd we have the same damn pitching troubles.
What same "damn pitching problems" is that? Having three bona-fide studs at 1-3 in RJ/FG/MB and a solid 4th with Loaiza?

A rotation of RJ/Garcia/Buehrle/Loaiza/5th is "the same damn pitching problems" as a rotation of Garcia/Buehrle/ELo/Garland/5th.

Interesting......

JDP
07-16-2004, 10:08 AM
The last few years the 5th spot is the thorn in our side, and now it is an easy hole to fill? How is that. We need to get Johnson w/o giving up anyone in the starting rotation. I just think we are writing off how easy it will be to pick up players we can potentially lose in this trade. Just seems like a lot to sacrifice for a calculated risk like this.You just answered it yourself: a thorn in the side for the last few years. Bringing in RJ doesn't fix it, but it doesn't automatically create it like you hinted at. It's a 'problem' that's been there and will still be there with the addition of RJ. The difference being that with four bona-fide SPs in RJ/FG/MB/EL in the #1-#4 spots, instead of the completely inconsistent and non-dominating Garland in the #4 spot -- the #5 spot can be more easily "tweaked with" during the rest of the regular season (Rauch? Schoeney?) -- because we can, on any given day with the 'new' 1-4 starters, win with better odds and increased confidence.

Then, when the Sox make the playoffs, they'd have RJ, Garica, Buehrle and perhaps even Loaiza starting.

SSN721
07-16-2004, 10:09 AM
What same "damn pitching problems" is that? Having three bona-fide studs at 1-3 in RJ/FG/MB and a solid 4th with Loaiza?

A rotation of RJ/Garcia/Buehrle/Loaiza/5th is "the same damn pitching problems" as a rotation of Garcia/Buehrle/ELo/Garland/5th.

Interesting......

I meant the same problems dealing with the black hole that is the 5th spot. I would just hate to lose a solid starter and worry about filling that 5th spot.

SSN721
07-16-2004, 10:10 AM
You just answered it yourself: a thorn in the side for the last few years. Bringing in RJ doesn't fix it, but it doesn't automatically create it like you hinted at. It's a 'problem' that's been there and will still be there with the addition of RJ. The difference being that with four bona-fide SPs in RJ/FG/MB/EL in the #1-#4 spots, instead of the completely inconsistent and non-dominating Garland in the #4 spot -- the #5 spot can be more easily "tweaked with" during the rest of the regular season (Rauch? Schoeney?) -- because we can, on any given day the 'new' 1-4 starter pitch, win with better odds and confidence.

Then, when the Sox make the playoffs, they'd have RJ, Garica, Buehrle and perhaps even Loaiza starting.

I just worry that with losing Garland it makes it more difficult to make the playoffs, that is my only concern, even with a much stronger starting 1-4 if we add Johnson.

JDP
07-16-2004, 10:10 AM
I meant the same problems dealing with the black hole that is the 5th spot. I would just hate to lose a solid starter and worry about filling that 5th spot.SSN721 -- check out my last post, #18 (just above yours).


You just answered it yourself: a thorn in the side for the last few years. Bringing in RJ doesn't fix it, but it doesn't automatically create it like you hinted at. It's a 'problem' that's been there and will still be there with the addition of RJ. The difference being that with four bona-fide SPs in RJ/FG/MB/EL in the #1-#4 spots, instead of the completely inconsistent and non-dominating Garland in the #4 spot -- the #5 spot can be more easily "tweaked with" during the rest of the regular season (Rauch? Schoeney?) -- because we can, on any given day with the 'new' 1-4 starters, win with better odds and increased confidence.

Then, when the Sox make the playoffs, they'd have RJ, Garica, Buehrle and perhaps even Loaiza starting.

Also, honestly: How "solid" is Garland .. really? Would you feel safe trotting him out in any game in a playoff series?

SSN721
07-16-2004, 10:21 AM
SSN721 -- check out my last post, #18 (just above yours).


You just answered it yourself: a thorn in the side for the last few years. Bringing in RJ doesn't fix it, but it doesn't automatically create it like you hinted at. It's a 'problem' that's been there and will still be there with the addition of RJ. The difference being that with four bona-fide SPs in RJ/FG/MB/EL in the #1-#4 spots, instead of the completely inconsistent and non-dominating Garland in the #4 spot -- the #5 spot can be more easily "tweaked with" during the rest of the regular season (Rauch? Schoeney?) -- because we can, on any given day with the 'new' 1-4 starters, win with better odds and increased confidence.

Then, when the Sox make the playoffs, they'd have RJ, Garica, Buehrle and perhaps even Loaiza starting.


Also, honestly: How "solid" is Garland .. really? Would you feel safe trotting him out in any game in a playoff series?

I wouldnt feel as confident as other starters in our rotation, but Garland has also come up in some big spots this year. He has failed as well but so have other starters on our rotation. ANd I am worried about making the playoffs . I think losing a starter who gives you a chance to win makes it a lot easier to win what I still think will end up being a tight division.

Aidan
07-16-2004, 10:22 AM
Boston will probably end up getting Randy Johnson because they have everything that Arizona wants...

Young catching: Kelly Shoppach
Young corner infielder: Kevin Youkilis
Young pitcher: Jon Papelbon

I know that Boston doesn't want to trade either Shoppach or Youkilis but they would do anything to prevent the Yankees from getting Randy Johnson. That said, RJ would still have to waive his no-trade clause to go to Boston, which he might not.

Malgar 12
07-16-2004, 10:27 AM
There is still time to wheel-and-deal on the market. If having to address a bullpen arm or two and find a suitable utility player are the Sox' main "concerns" after getting RJ, things are looking up.


With a rotation of Johnson/Buehrle/Garcia/Loaiza, does it matter who rotates in and out of the 5th spot all that much? Pick up a middle-to-end of the rotation SP before the 31st if so desired, keep Schoeney in the pen and that leaves Marte/Schoeney as the LHs in the pen, or like you mentioned, have Darensbourg give it a shot. Also, we'd still have Rauch -- forget about him?

Like I said, if the complaints are because of a bullpen arm and a utility positions, then we're really starting to pick at things.
With a .5 game lead throwing the #5 Starter into the air is not a good idea, that package for Johnson is way too much. Garland is young cheap, and becoming a good pitcher. Johnson is great but he's old and expensive. Would I like to trade for him? sure, but not if it includes any MLB Roster players. We already have a hole at catcher from the last trade. Anybody who thinks Davis or Burke is acceptable is nuts. And of course if you trade Uribe, you've got no 2B, because as much as some people are unwilling to admit it, wee Willie is a AAA talent at best. The only thing he should be doing for the Sox is pinch running.

JDP
07-16-2004, 10:28 AM
Boston will probably end up getting Randy Johnson because they have everything that Arizona wants...

Aidan:
Great name. My wife and I's firstborn is due within the next month or month and a half and he's going to be an Aidan Michael..

Malgar 12
07-16-2004, 10:31 AM
SSN721 -- check out my last post, #18 (just above yours).


You just answered it yourself: a thorn in the side for the last few years. Bringing in RJ doesn't fix it, but it doesn't automatically create it like you hinted at. It's a 'problem' that's been there and will still be there with the addition of RJ. The difference being that with four bona-fide SPs in RJ/FG/MB/EL in the #1-#4 spots, instead of the completely inconsistent and non-dominating Garland in the #4 spot -- the #5 spot can be more easily "tweaked with" during the rest of the regular season (Rauch? Schoeney?) -- because we can, on any given day with the 'new' 1-4 starters, win with better odds and increased confidence.

Then, when the Sox make the playoffs, they'd have RJ, Garica, Buehrle and perhaps even Loaiza starting.

Also, honestly: How "solid" is Garland .. really? Would you feel safe trotting him out in any game in a playoff series?I'd feel a lot safer than I would with Parque, or Baldwin, and maybe even Sirotka in '00. What killed us against the Mariners? Our questionable starters, or our choke artist line-up? No worries, after this trade goes through Willie will be grounding out softly to the 2B 5 times a game!:D:

Nobody is disputing RJ is an upgrade, but that the proposed price is too steep.

PorkChopExpress
07-16-2004, 10:32 AM
Unless we get REALLY creative, something like:

Shoeny+Sweeney to Yanks for Dioner Navarro(C)+cash

Navarro+Cotts+Uribe+Diaz/Rauch to DBacks for RJ+low level prospects

Yanks get another starting option plus a good prospect that they can potentially flip for another pitcher, and they ensure the BoSox don't get RJ (NOTE: This assumes that the Yanks don't have the prospects to get RJ themselves). DBacks get good young pitching, a UIF who can play 3B and has offensive potential, and a good C prospect (and dump RJ's cash).

Sox keep their team together, losing a UIF (replaceable), and a bullpen arm (harder to replace), but worth losing RJ for. The rotation is the best in baseball (especially with Prior out). ELo/Garland can fight about who's the 4th & 5th starter.

Then when Maggs walks, we have to find a cheaper option in RF, but hopefully we're doing so with a significantly greater payroll after a huge attendance boost and hopefully a deep playoff run.
King George has made it clear he wants RJ, though, so he is not going to help us acquire him instead.

Flight #24
07-16-2004, 10:41 AM
King George has made it clear he wants RJ, though, so he is not going to help us acquire him instead.
Depends on his options. If he doens't have the chips but the BoSox do, might he take a lesser pitcher to help his team and have RJ on the ChiSox instead of the hated BoSox?

Heck - as long as we're dreaming, make it a 4-way. Sox give OF prospects to Pittsburgh for Kendall+Benson, give Benson to the Yanks for Navarro+RobinsonCano+cash, give Navarro+Cano+Cotts+Rauch to DBacks for RJ. We end up with RJ-Garcia-Buehrle-Garland-Loaiza and a lineup of Kendall-ARow-Maggs-Lee-Konerko-Valentin-Crede-Borchard-Harris/Uribe.

Aidan
07-16-2004, 10:42 AM
Aidan:
Great name. My wife and I's firstborn is due within the next month or month and a half and he's going to be an Aidan Michael..Yeah, it's one of the most popular baby names now. I had it when it was unique in 1980. :smile:

kjhanson
07-16-2004, 10:44 AM
There is still time to wheel-and-deal on the market. If having to address a bullpen arm or two and find a suitable utility player are the Sox' main "concerns" after getting RJ, things are looking up.


With a rotation of Johnson/Buehrle/Garcia/Loaiza, does it matter who rotates in and out of the 5th spot all that much? Pick up a middle-to-end of the rotation SP before the 31st if so desired, keep Schoeney in the pen and that leaves Marte/Schoeney as the LHs in the pen, or like you mentioned, have Darensbourg give it a shot. Also, we'd still have Rauch -- forget about him?

Like I said, if the complaints are because of a bullpen arm and a utility positions, then we're really starting to pick at things.
No, this is absolutely ludacris. One of the things about trading for Randy Johnson is that he would tie our hands for such deals. We're not going to be able to just address the bullpen problem that easily. We'd have to be more creative and find a team willing to deal out a reasonably priced, effective reliever. There's not too many of those. Any team looking to deal wants to dump money at this point. If we get Randy Johnson, we can't take on any more large contracts. Which is why we can't give up that much major league talent for him. We don't have the money to replace those parts.

And yes, it does matter who goes out there every 5th day. Have you watched any White Sox baseball with Danny Wright or Arnie Munoz coming in trying to fill that hole? We have to have someone serviceable there. You can't just concede every fifth game because it puts too much pressure on the other starters. When you throw Schoenweis every fifth day, you're not "conceding" that game, but he'd be moved to the bullpen if Cotts is gone.

Bullpen help, utility infielders and "middle to end of the rotation" starters cost money and even more talent around the trade deadline. Trading for Randy would eliminate most of the options that we have.

Of course, this is all hypothetical, as it seems a trade appears highly unlikely at this point. But, unless you want to unload a lot of major league players a la the D'Backs earlier this year, and risk it, we'd have to trade more "near major league ready talent" rather than our starting 2B, our long relief man and one of our better starters of late.

FightingBillini
07-16-2004, 10:58 AM
Depends on his options. If he doens't have the chips but the BoSox do, might he take a lesser pitcher to help his team and have RJ on the ChiSox instead of the hated BoSox?

Heck - as long as we're dreaming, make it a 4-way. Sox give OF prospects to Pittsburgh for Kendall+Benson, give Benson to the Yanks for Navarro+RobinsonCano+cash, give Navarro+Cano+Cotts+Rauch to DBacks for RJ. We end up with RJ-Garcia-Buehrle-Garland-Loaiza and a lineup of Kendall-ARow-Maggs-Lee-Konerko-Valentin-Crede-Borchard-Harris/Uribe.
Hmmm, BRILLIANT! That would be killing two birds with one stone.
Still seems too good tobe true, but Georgie would do anything to keep Johnson out of Fenway.

Foulke You
07-16-2004, 11:48 AM
I'm of the opinion that this team needs to make a bold move. Trading for Randy Johnson would shine a huge spotlight on our sleepy little disrespected South Side ballclub. If you have to give up a Garland, that still leaves Schoeneweis in the 5th spot, not Arnie Munoz or Felix Diaz as some of you think. Randy Johnson is arguably the most dominant pitcher in the game today. Do not take what this man can offer to our team lightly. A rotation of Johnson, Garcia, Buehrle, Loaiza, and Schoeneweis all but guarantees a Central Division Title and possibly much, much more.

Besides his dominant pitching ability, the positive PR stroke for our team with having Randy Johnson in the rotation would be fantastic. It would give the Sox something they've been lacking for the last few years. CREDIBILITY. National outlets like ESPN would be forced to cover us, the local media would have no choice but to give the Sox their props. It would signal something to all the fans in Chicago that the Sox are finally going for all the marbles like the Yankees and Red Sox do. Do you think Yankees fans cry in their beer about losing top pitching prospects or guys like Nick Johnson, Jake Westbrook, or Ricky Ledee for players they've picked up down the stretch run? Nope, they are too busy enjoying long October playoff runs. This White Sox team has been planning for the future for far too long and it is time for the Sox to win NOW and fortunately, I believe Kenny Williams shares this philosophy and will pull off at least one more blockbuster before it is all said and done.

Man Soo Lee
07-16-2004, 02:16 PM
Depends on his options. If he doens't have the chips but the BoSox do, might he take a lesser pitcher to help his team and have RJ on the ChiSox instead of the hated BoSox?
No matter what other options the Yankees have, I don't think helping their likely first round opponent (us) acquire Randy Johnson will rank highly among them.

DirtySouthsider
07-16-2004, 02:31 PM
No matter what other options the Yankees have, I don't think helping their likely first round opponent (us) acquire Randy Johnson will rank highly among them.

The Yankees first round opponent will be the wild-card (not us).

pearso66
07-16-2004, 02:33 PM
The Yankees first round opponent will be the wild-card (not us).
Unless of course the wildcard comes out of the east, then they don't play the wild-card, and could very well play us

Malgar 12
07-16-2004, 02:33 PM
The Yankees first round opponent will be the wild-card (not us).ahhh... but if the wild card is Boston then they would play the weaker remaining division winner, which would most likely be the Sox.

The Tom
07-16-2004, 02:48 PM
Arizona states that they're content to keep the Unit. I think that will change as the deadline approaches. The WANT to dump his salary and Johnson is starting to be a bad clubhouse guy. The D-Backs are going to find a way to dump him. So rather than giving up our entire system, i say we should give them a solid offer and stand pat. No reason to risk everything.

We have no catching prospects to give up, and we're limited on corner infielders. Crede has a lot of potential, but not much trade value with his numbers so far. That leaves Fields and Rogowski, but they arent nearly MLB ready yet. We might as well leave Anderson and Sweeney out because the D-Backs arent looking for OF's, and we will need them if Maggs leaves. I'd rather shop Garland then Cotts. If you look at Cotts numbers, they have more to do with the misuse of him then lack of talent. Garland is simply an underachiever. Therefore Garland, Diaz, Rauch, Munoz, and Rogowski for Johnson.

pearso66
07-16-2004, 02:51 PM
Arizona states that they're content to keep the Unit. I think that will change as the deadline approaches. The WANT to dump his salary and Johnson is starting to be a bad clubhouse guy. The D-Backs are going to find a way to dump him. So rather than giving up our entire system, i say we should give them a solid offer and stand pat. No reason to risk everything.

We have no catching prospects to give up, and we're limited on corner infielders. Crede has a lot of potential, but not much trade value with his numbers so far. That leaves Fields and Rogowski, but they arent nearly MLB ready yet. We might as well leave Anderson and Sweeney out because the D-Backs arent looking for OF's, and we will need them if Maggs leaves. I'd rather shop Garland then Cotts. If you look at Cotts numbers, they have more to do with the misuse of him then lack of talent. Garland is simply an underachiever. Therefore Garland, Diaz, Rauch, Munoz, and Rogowski for Johnson.
wow that's a lot of pitching prospects. is there anyone left in the system?

The Tom
07-16-2004, 03:07 PM
There are a ton in the lower levels. It will take time for them to be Major League ready, but with such a committment to a Johnson, Buerhle, Garcia rotation they'll have time. Lumsden and Tracey both show some promise at W-S. Lumsden has a really live arm but struggles with his mechanics. Brandon McCarthy has been an absolute stud the last two years and i going to be a high ranked prospect next year i suspect. Also, Gio Gonzalez is tearing the rookie league apart (1.00 ERA), he is a long ways away but has a bright future. Honel is also coming of injury in AA and he was one of our very top prospects. In the mean time, Cotts should be given a serious chance to succees as a LH starter. Adkins could also contribute starting next year.

E Coast Sox Fan
07-16-2004, 03:20 PM
It looks like AZ may have several players they'd be willing to unload. I wonder if they could work a bigger deal like...

Johnson, Finley, and Hillenbrand for Schoenwiess, Rouch, Crede, Rowand, and Harris (or a prospect).

AZ gets to shed a lot of salary and they get a lot of youth. We get players to help us win this year and have to shoulder a lot of extra salary.

DirtySouthsider
07-16-2004, 03:23 PM
Unless of course the wildcard comes out of the east, then they don't play the wild-card, and could very well play us
Yes.....I stand corrected!

PorkChopExpress
07-16-2004, 03:23 PM
It looks like AZ may have several players they'd be willing to unload. I wonder if they could work a bigger deal like...

Johnson, Finley, and Hillenbrand for Schoenwiess, Rouch, Crede, Rowand, and Harris (or a prospect).

AZ gets to shed a lot of salary and they get a lot of youth. We get players to help us win this year and have to shoulder a lot of extra salary.
I wouldn't mind seeing this, but I find it hard to believe that we would be willing to take on salary like that.

Basten
07-16-2004, 03:24 PM
Unless we get REALLY creative, something like:

Shoeny+Sweeney to Yanks for Dioner Navarro(C)+cash

Navarro+Cotts+Uribe+Diaz/Rauch to DBacks for RJ+low level prospects

Yanks get another starting option plus a good prospect that they can potentially flip for another pitcher, and they ensure the BoSox don't get RJ (NOTE: This assumes that the Yanks don't have the prospects to get RJ themselves). DBacks get good young pitching, a UIF who can play 3B and has offensive potential, and a good C prospect (and dump RJ's cash).

Sox keep their team together, losing a UIF (replaceable), and a bullpen arm (harder to replace), but worth losing RJ for. The rotation is the best in baseball (especially with Prior out). ELo/Garland can fight about who's the 4th & 5th starter.

Then when Maggs walks, we have to find a cheaper option in RF, but hopefully we're doing so with a significantly greater payroll after a huge attendance boost and hopefully a deep playoff run.
What is KW getting paid for if not to make such "creative" deals that directly and indirectly improve the team? If JR wants RJ, then KW should looking into every possible angle/edge/combination.

GET IT DONE.

SSN721
07-16-2004, 03:31 PM
What is KW getting paid for if not to make such "creative" deals that directly and indirectly improve the team? If JR wants RJ, then KW should looking into every possible angle/edge/combination.

GET IT DONE.

I pretty much agree with this except standing by my previous stance that I think including Garland in any trades for Johnson will be too much of a detriment to the team and could really hurt our chances of making it to the playoffs.

PorkChopExpress
07-16-2004, 03:33 PM
What is KW getting paid for if not to make such "creative" deals that directly and indirectly improve the team? If JR wants RJ, then KW should looking into every possible angle/edge/combination.

GET IT DONE.
I have no doubts that KW is looking at absolutely every angle. If he truly wants RJ he can do it, and he will, assuming RJ will agree to come here.

There have been so many rumors so far, all I can figure is that RJ will only go to the Yankees, but he's given a list of teams he will go to, which includes Boston, but he won't go there because he has problems with Schilling, and RJ's and Schilling's families are very close and they would love to play together, every team wants RJ but only so long as no other team gets him, but they are all working together to ensure that everyone but themselves can get RJ, etc., etc. I'm just starting to doubt everything I hear. If KW can do it, he'll do it.

Basten
07-16-2004, 03:35 PM
No, this is absolutely ludacris. One of the things about trading for Randy Johnson is that he would tie our hands for such deals. We're not going to be able to just address the bullpen problem that easily. We'd have to be more creative and find a team willing to deal out a reasonably priced, effective reliever. There's not too many of those. Any team looking to deal wants to dump money at this point. If we get Randy Johnson, we can't take on any more large contracts. Which is why we can't give up that much major league talent for him. We don't have the money to replace those parts.

And yes, it does matter who goes out there every 5th day. Have you watched any White Sox baseball with Danny Wright or Arnie Munoz coming in trying to fill that hole? We have to have someone serviceable there. You can't just concede every fifth game because it puts too much pressure on the other starters. When you throw Schoenweis every fifth day, you're not "conceding" that game, but he'd be moved to the bullpen if Cotts is gone.

Bullpen help, utility infielders and "middle to end of the rotation" starters cost money and even more talent around the trade deadline. Trading for Randy would eliminate most of the options that we have.

Of course, this is all hypothetical, as it seems a trade appears highly unlikely at this point. But, unless you want to unload a lot of major league players a la the D'Backs earlier this year, and risk it, we'd have to trade more "near major league ready talent" rather than our starting 2B, our long relief man and one of our better starters of late.
What's ludicrous is people equating the need for a HOF starter who will pitch twice in first 4 games of ALDS as well as help bring about an unprecedented leap in popularity on the South Side......to the need for a 3rd or 4th option out of the pen and a utility infielder. Unreal.

lowesox
07-16-2004, 03:36 PM
I think that with what we've paid for other players in the past, Arizona will probably hold out for more than most of us would be willing to give up. Of course, a lot of us are more concervative than Kenny Williams. So if we make this move I hope Kenny at least doesn't touch anybody at the major league level. Personally, I think the longterm future of this team isn't very bright, so he might as well draw from the minors:

Donald Lucy
Honel
Anderson or Sweeney
Bajenaru
Munoz

For
Johnson
and Juan Brito

samram
07-16-2004, 03:38 PM
What is KW getting paid for if not to make such "creative" deals that directly and indirectly improve the team? If JR wants RJ, then KW should looking into every possible angle/edge/combination.

GET IT DONE.

Would you be willing to give up Konerko? I think including him relieves the DBacks of having to worry about resigning Sexson, and he would be cheaper than Sexson anyway. What could be done is the Sox send Rauch and lower level prospect(s) to Toronto for Delgado and catcher Kevin Cash, with Toronto picking up most, if not all, of Delgado's salary. Then send Cash, Konerko, and maybe Diaz (and maybe a lower level pitching prospect) to Arizona for RJ. This way the Sox would have RJ and a big lefty bat. Arizona at least brings two major leaguers at needed positions, instead of just getting minor leaguers. After the season, Delgado walks, but with Konerko's salary gone, there is more money for Maggs, and not as much pressure to bring back ELo because RJ would be here next year, along with Buehrle, Garcia and JG.

I'm not necessarily advocating this because no one knows whether Delgado is healthy or what Frank's status is. If these are big question marks, then there's no way this could be even thought of. It's just a way I can see of getting this done without completely mortgaging the future. Konerko is also having a great year and would be tough to deal.

(Ducks to avoid flames).:D:

Flight #24
07-16-2004, 03:40 PM
I pretty much agree with this except standing by my previous stance that I think including Garland in any trades for Johnson will be too much of a detriment to the team and could really hurt our chances of making it to the playoffs.
I agree with your stance, but for slightly different reasons. I think that trading for RJ will cost us so much that you only do it to give yourself a much much better chance at a WS. Adding RJ without losing Garland/Crede does that. Adding RJ while losing Garland or Crede makes the team better, but does not make us better enough to be a WS favorite (we'd be co-favorites with the Yanks). Therefore I don't think it's worth the level of mortgaging that we'd have to do.

But I think I'd be willing to deal just about anyone from the minors to get him. Hold onto one of Anderson/Sweeney, and one young pitcher of Diaz/Cotts/Rauch. Anyone else is fair game.

PorkChopExpress
07-16-2004, 03:43 PM
Would you be willing to give up Konerko? I think including him relieves the DBacks of having to worry about resigning Sexson, and he would be cheaper than Sexson anyway. What could be done is the Sox send Rauch and lower level prospect(s) to Toronto for Delgado and catcher Kevin Cash, with Toronto picking up most, if not all, of Delgado's salary. Then send Cash, Konerko, and maybe Diaz (and maybe a lower level pitching prospect) to Arizona for RJ. This way the Sox would have RJ and a big lefty bat. Arizona at least brings two major leaguers at needed positions, instead of just getting minor leaguers. After the season, Delgado walks, but with Konerko's salary gone, there is more money for Maggs, and not as much pressure to bring back ELo because RJ would be here next year, along with Buehrle, Garcia and JG.

I'm not necessarily advocating this because no one knows whether Delgado is healthy or what Frank's status is. If these are big question marks, then there's no way this could be even thought of. It's just a way I can see of getting this done without completely mortgaging the future. Konerko is also having a great year and would be tough to deal.

(Ducks to avoid flames).:D:
It wasn't all that long ago that KW made it clear that no one was untradeable. I guess anything is possible.

Basten
07-16-2004, 03:45 PM
. The D-Backs are going to find a way to dump him. So rather than giving up our entire system, i say we should give them a solid offer and stand pat. No reason to risk everything.
Actually there is a reason alright: we NEEEEEED him, both his pitching and his name more than super-rich Yankees and Carmines do, combined.

Right now is the moment of truth for the White Sox: can they become a big-time franchise and put up a big-ass fight against the Cubs....or not?

Play it safe and you will lose. Take a gamble and you may lose.

Basten
07-16-2004, 03:49 PM
Would you be willing to give up Konerko?
Would I give up a base-clogging, GIDP-loving, subpar-ranging 1B who, as good as he is now, would be the Candidate Numero Uno to go 1-for-40 - what with his headcase-ish tendencies and all........and who will be making 9 Mill next year?

What do you think?

PorkChopExpress
07-16-2004, 03:53 PM
Would I give up a base-clogging, GIDP-loving, subpar-ranging 1B who, as good as he is now, would be the Candidate Numero Uno to go 1-for-40 - what with his headcase-ish tendencies and all........and who will be making 9 Mill next year?

What do you think?
No then?

Basten
07-16-2004, 03:54 PM
I pretty much agree with this except standing by my previous stance that I think including Garland in any trades for Johnson will be too much of a detriment to the team and could really hurt our chances of making it to the playoffs.
Garland is FA after 2005 and frankly is just a touch above mediocre. You think his tendency to unravels at the first sign of trouble in June is going to be magically cured going into postseason battles where every pitch could be life or death?

2 years of RJ.......or 2 years of Garland?

DickAllen72
07-16-2004, 04:07 PM
Would you be willing to give up Konerko? I think including him relieves the DBacks of having to worry about resigning Sexson, and he would be cheaper than Sexson anyway. What could be done is the Sox send Rauch and lower level prospect(s) to Toronto for Delgado and catcher Kevin Cash, with Toronto picking up most, if not all, of Delgado's salary. Then send Cash, Konerko, and maybe Diaz (and maybe a lower level pitching prospect) to Arizona for RJ. This way the Sox would have RJ and a big lefty bat. Arizona at least brings two major leaguers at needed positions, instead of just getting minor leaguers. After the season, Delgado walks, but with Konerko's salary gone, there is more money for Maggs, and not as much pressure to bring back ELo because RJ would be here next year, along with Buehrle, Garcia and JG.

I'm not necessarily advocating this because no one knows whether Delgado is healthy or what Frank's status is. If these are big question marks, then there's no way this could be even thought of. It's just a way I can see of getting this done without completely mortgaging the future. Konerko is also having a great year and would be tough to deal.

(Ducks to avoid flames).:D:


No flames here! I would do it in a heartbeat. The only reservation I would have would be what it might do to the team's "chemistry". But I'd be willing to take that risk.

Flight #24
07-16-2004, 04:14 PM
Garland is FA after 2005 and frankly is just a touch above mediocre. You think his tendency to unravels at the first sign of trouble in June is going to be magically cured going into postseason battles where every pitch could be life or death?

2 years of RJ.......or 2 years of Garland?
I guess if you want to discount the times when he's NOT unraveled, then yeah - he unravels at the first sign of trouble.

But the FACTS are that while that happens sometimes, he also has had a number of occasions when he worked himself out of jams (his last 2 starts before the break being prime examples).

Garland is young, improving, and already a solid #3. if he keeps improving, he can be a solid #2 or even possibly a #1. RJ is obviously an improvement, and I'd do a Garland+mid-level prospect for RJ or a straight up deal (AZ cuts cash and gets a younger guy). The problem is you can't do that deal, you have to give up Garland+a lot to get RJ. That is not something that's smart to get a slight upgrade, that's the kind of deal you make to significantly upgrade your team.

Keeping Garland and giving up a lot of prospects makes the Sox the favorites for the WS. Dealing Garland+a ton for RJ makes the Sox co-favorites with the Yanks. That's not enough to warrant the stripping of the farm system that would be required. The point is to make ourselves favorites, otherwise it's a bad bet to decimate the future.

kjhanson
07-16-2004, 04:17 PM
What's ludicrous is people equating the need for a HOF startw who will pitch twice in first 4 games of ALDS as well as help bring about an unprecedented leap in popularity on the South Side......to the need for a 3rd or 4th option out of the pen and a utility infielder. Unreal.
On the contrary buddy, we must get there first. And I hate to break it to you, but Randy can only pitch 20% of our games the rest of the way, not 50% like in the playoffs. Once in the playoffs, a starter of his quality is unrivaled. However, we must still cover all bases and field a TEAM to compete on a day to day basis. Also, you blatantly ommitted Garland from your little rant. If the deal were Uribe, Cotts and Diaz, sure we'd jump at it, but Garland is still a piece of the puzzle and the main piece of the trade that I originally criticized.

Basten
07-16-2004, 04:20 PM
I guess if you want to discount the times when he's NOT unraveled, then yeah - he unravels at the first sign of trouble.

But the FACTS are that while that happens sometimes, he also has had a number of occasions when he worked himself out of jams (his last 2 starts before the break being prime examples).



I'll just repost from another thread:



Garland:

Career ERA as a starter: 4.75
Career WHIP as a starter: 1.48
Career BB/K ratio as a starter: 2.5/3.0
Career record on a good hitting team: 41-46
Status: FA after 2005.

Crede:

Career OPS: 745
Career OPS. w. RO: 770
Career Ave w. RISP: .260

Granted, Crede had 2 awesome months to end 2002 that makes his numbers look a little better. This year has a 640 OPS in 'Close and Late' situations in 42 atbats.


Yeah, Garland has promise. That's all he has.

Flight #24
07-16-2004, 04:41 PM
I'll just repost from another thread:





Yeah, Garland has promise. That's all he has.
How about using more relevant data, especially for a young player, like, for example: this year's stats.

WHIP: 1.31
K/BB: 1.32
Opponents OPS: .715
Quality starts: 11/18
Excellent starts (>7IP and <2ER): 8/18

That's a solid #3 pitcher. And fact that he's also got almost half his starts being excellent, combined with his youth is in his favor. He's not there yet, but to say that he's not a good #3 and not a lot better than last year or light years better than 2 year ago is incorrect.

There are a lot of very good pitchers who, if you look at their first 4 years average stats, were similar to JG. Many pitchers take a year or 2 to become good ML starters.

jabrch
07-16-2004, 04:45 PM
2 years of RJ.......or 2 years of Garland?
Not quite so simple - it is 2 years of RJ or 2 years of Garland and about 13MM extra in payroll.

California Sox
07-16-2004, 04:48 PM
ESPN is reporting that Johnson will approve a trade only to the Yankees, bringing their payroll to almost exactly 200 million. Life may not be fair, but baseball certainly isn't.

Basten
07-16-2004, 04:49 PM
On the contrary buddy, we must get there first. And I hate to break it to you, but Randy can only pitch 20% of our games the rest of the way, not 50% like in the playoffs. Once in the playoffs, a starter of his quality is unrivaled. However, we must still cover all bases and field a TEAM to compete on a day to day basis. Also, you blatantly ommitted Garland from your little rant. If the deal were Uribe, Cotts and Diaz, sure we'd jump at it, but Garland is still a piece of the puzzle and the main piece of the trade that I originally criticized.
If Unit-Garcia-Buerhle-Loaiza-Show is not good enough to make postseason, then what chance does Garcia-Buerhle-Loaiza-Garland-Show has?

Luckily, Twins are mediocre team and we're kicking their ass all over the place in the Metrodome. Sox are good enough to make playoffs. And once in the playoffs, Unit-Garcia-Buerhle can beat anybody.

Plus the economic side of things where Unit blows Judy away.

If Arizona settles for Diaz, Rauch/Munoz, Anderson, I am fine with it, but they're gonna want Garland. Let them have him.

Basten
07-16-2004, 04:55 PM
Not quite so simple - it is 2 years of RJ or 2 years of Garland and about 13MM extra in payroll.
When everything is tallied up, Randy Johnson makes that money back by being Randy Johnson. He also gives you two excellent shots at the WS.

Man Soo Lee
07-16-2004, 04:55 PM
Garland is FA after 2005 and frankly is just a touch above mediocre.
Garland didn't have a full year of service time in 2000, so he shouldn't be a free agent until after 2006. He will be 5th and 6th year arbitration eligible, resulting in an escalating salary.

beckett21
07-16-2004, 05:00 PM
ESPN is reporting that Johnson will approve a trade only to the Yankees, bringing their payroll to almost exactly 200 million. Life may not be fair, but baseball certainly isn't.This should not come as a surprise to anybody.

Screw him. Screw the Yankees.

I can't wait to see how the Yankees blow it this season. Nothing could possibly give me greater joy.

Flight #24
07-16-2004, 05:05 PM
If Unit-Garcia-Buerhle-Loaiza-Show is not good enough to make postseason, then what chance does Garcia-Buerhle-Loaiza-Garland-Show has?

Luckily, Twins are mediocre team and we're kicking their ass all over the place in the Metrodome. Sox are good enough to make playoffs. And once in the playoffs, Unit-Garcia-Buerhle can beat anybody.

Plus the economic side of things where Unit blows Judy away.

If Arizona settles for Diaz, Rauch/Munoz, Anderson, I am fine with it, but they're gonna want Garland. Let them have him.
Garland is a HUGE improvement over Shoenweis. I think you're letting frustration over Jon dominating and having1 "bad" inning in losses (due more to the O failing than pitching) cloud the fact that even in his "bad" games, he's providing quality starts, and is having increasingly more starts where he gives up <2ER, which I would consider excellent.

Basten
07-16-2004, 05:13 PM
Garland is a HUGE improvement over Shoenweis. I think you're letting frustration over Jon dominating and having1 "bad" inning in losses (due more to the O failing than pitching) cloud the fact that even in his "bad" games, he's providing quality starts, and is having increasingly more starts where he gives up <2ER, which I would consider excellent.Garland is not a HUUUUGE improvement over Schoenweiss - especially not the Schoenweiss circa early in the season before his health problems, but that's besides the point since you're exchanging Garland for Unit and using Show in his place is NOT an option - Arizona wants Garland upside, not Show.

harwar
07-16-2004, 05:21 PM
Johnson will approve a trade only to the Yankees .. Life may not be fair, but baseball certainly isn't.I can see it now,i get up to the pearly gates and ol saint peter is wearing a yankee cap,maybe death ain't fair either.

jabrch
07-16-2004, 05:24 PM
I can see it now,i get up to the pearly gates and ol saint peter is wearing a yankee cap,maybe death ain't fair either.

If that's the case, I'll kick him in the nuts and go downstairs and hang with the Sinners.

Mickster
07-16-2004, 05:38 PM
If that's the case, I'll kick him in the nuts and go downstairs and hang with the Sinners.
I'll be there next to you in my boxers. I'll bring the marshmellows. :smile:

South Side
07-16-2004, 05:45 PM
This should not come as a surprise to anybody.

Screw him. Screw the Yankees.

I can't wait to see how the Yankees blow it this season. Nothing could possibly give me greater joy.
The only thing that will give me greater joy is if the Sox are the team to take the Yankmees down in the playoffs.. Can you imagine the exhilaration?

beckett21
07-16-2004, 06:11 PM
The only thing that will give me greater joy is if the Sox are the team to take the Yankmees down in the playoffs.. Can you imagine the exhilaration?Yeah....that would be the ultimate dream scenario!

It would probably feel something like this...

:supernana: :gulp: :happybday :) :supernana:

Sweet, sweet vindication. If there is any justice in this world, it will happen.

WSox8404
07-16-2004, 06:11 PM
When you think about it, a front three of Unit, Mark, and Freddy could possibly take anyone down in the playoffs. Even if the hitting doesn't entirely show up, we still have a good shot at winning. Then we have a Garland or Loaiza to go as a four. The other goes in the pen. That isn't bad. I wish we would just go for it all and get Johnson and another left hand hitter for the lineup, preferably a top of the order guy. I honestly believe that if we can do that, we could win the WS. The extra bullpen help would be either Jon or Este in there.

beckett21
07-16-2004, 06:16 PM
When you think about it, a front three of Unit, Mark, and Freddy could possibly take anyone down in the playoffs. Even if the hitting doesn't entirely show up, we still have a good shot at winning. Then we have a Garland or Loaiza to go as a four. The other goes in the pen. That isn't bad. I wish we would just go for it all and get Johnson and another left hand hitter for the lineup, preferably a top of the order guy. I honestly believe that if we can do that, we could win the WS. The extra bullpen help would be either Jon or Este in there.
This is nice in principle.

It's not up to us, unfortunately.

Randy gets what Randy wants. He apparently wants to sell his soul to the Yankees.

Why am I not surprised? :?:

WSox8404
07-16-2004, 06:19 PM
I really hope the Yankmees don't get him. I mean I know Johnson has a lot of say to where he wants to go, but Arizona will not trade him for just crap. I really wonder how this will play out.

Flight #24
07-16-2004, 06:25 PM
Garland is not a HUUUUGE improvement over Schoenweiss - especially not the Schoenweiss circa early in the season before his health problems, but that's besides the point since you're exchanging Garland for Unit and using Show in his place is NOT an option - Arizona wants Garland upside, not Show.
The problem with your assumption is that the Show we have from here on out is not necessarily the Show of early in the season, whereas we have every reason to expect better and better things out of Jon.

Show did well his first time around the league as a starter. There's tape on him now, and people have seen him. Plus he's pitching a lot more than he's used to, so I'm not at all surprised that his performance is tailing off.
Like I said earlier - I'd do Garland for RJ, I'd even offer a bit more. But I wouldn't do Garland+thebulk of the system for RJ. That doesn't improve us enough to offset the long term harm.

Sox+RJ-Garland do not make us the favorite. Remember, getting RJ likely means we like without Frank or a replacement. So really, it's Sox-Garland-Frank+RJ or Sox+Garland-Frank+replacement (Finley, Delgado, Burnitz, Preston Wilson, etc.)

Basten
07-16-2004, 06:58 PM
The problem with your assumption is that the Show we have from here on out is not necessarily the Show of early in the season, whereas we have every reason to expect better and better things out of Jon.

Show did well his first time around the league as a starter. There's tape on him now, and people have seen him. Plus he's pitching a lot more than he's used to, so I'm not at all surprised that his performance is tailing off.
Like I said earlier - I'd do Garland for RJ, I'd even offer a bit more. But I wouldn't do Garland+thebulk of the system for RJ. That doesn't improve us enough to offset the long term harm.

Sox+RJ-Garland do not make us the favorite. Remember, getting RJ likely means we like without Frank or a replacement. So really, it's Sox-Garland-Frank+RJ or Sox+Garland-Frank+replacement (Finley, Delgado, Burnitz, Preston Wilson, etc.)
Now that Frank is out for 2 months (or the season), looks like they should go after Randy Johnson AND Steve Finley.

I can only imagine what they'll cost.

Paulwny
07-16-2004, 07:05 PM
Now that Frank is out for 2 months (or the season), looks like they should go after Randy Johnson AND Steve Finley.

I can only imagine what they'll cost.
Yep, when teams know you're desperate you'll pay big time.
Does KW have enough bullets in his gun ?

Basten
07-16-2004, 07:15 PM
Yep, when teams know you're desperate you'll pay big time.
Does KW have enough bullets in his gun ?
Ah who the **** knows, really. Unit makes 5 more, Finley - 3+. That pushes 2004 payroll to least 75 Mill. Clearly Sox would be done dealing. On top of that, now you lose big-time prospects.

Not good.

I guess now we're gonna see if Magglio is worth 14 Mill, Konerko - 8, Lee - 7 and Valentin - 5. Let's hope these losers put the tteam on their backs.

Blueprint1
07-16-2004, 07:27 PM
Ah who the **** knows, really. Unit makes 5 more, Finley - 3+. That pushes 2004 payroll to least 75 Mill. Clearly Sox would be done dealing. On top of that, now you lose big-time prospects.

Not good.

I guess now we're gonna see if Magglio is worth 14 Mill, Konerko - 8, Lee - 7 and Valentin - 5. Let's hope these losers put the tteam on their backs.
losers???? hmmm okay

Basten
07-16-2004, 07:53 PM
losers???? hmmm okay
Damn straight.

And the more they try to pull-n-elevate an outside pitch, the bigger the losers they'll be. Hopefully as they get older, they get wiser. We're about to if they're worth their salaries in the next 2 months.

TwinsDynasty
07-16-2004, 07:55 PM
:troll

samram
07-16-2004, 09:03 PM
:trollThanks for your input!

Frater Perdurabo
07-16-2004, 09:09 PM
:troll.:dtroll:

JDP
07-16-2004, 09:19 PM
The White Sox need to send an ambassador down to Phoenix and do it quickly. Whether that be a Sox rep, KW or JR himself -- the Sox need an ambassador down in Phoenix, talking to RJ, talking up the city of Chicago and how RJ coming to Chicago and bringing a title to this town would immortalize him to the likes of Michael Jordan.

It may seem like a small thing, but you'd gotta believe that'd play very, very well with his ego.

THE_HOOTER
07-16-2004, 09:24 PM
:dtroll:
I dont see why he's a troll--he has a point.

If we dont make that trade, Johnson is ours--we had everything they wanted.

Also, I dont necessarily disagree with his assesment of Garcia--just not to the extent to call him characterless.

I think he is a tad overrated.

Not worth 9 mil a year, but he was to us--we needed another starter next year with Loiaza leaving.

By the way, The TWINS suck.

dickallen15
07-16-2004, 09:28 PM
I dont see why he's a troll--he has a point.

If we dont make that trade, Johnson is ours--we had everything they wanted.

Also, I dont necessarily disagree with his assesment of Garcia--just not to the extent to call him characterless.

I think he is a tad overrated.

Not worth 9 mil a year, but he was to us--we needed another starter next year with Loiaza leaving.

By the way, The TWINS suck.Johnson's agent was on ESPN radio, and said if you aren't the Cardinals or Yankees, you aren't a player for Randy Johnson. Considering he has a no trade clause, and he doesn't want to come here, there is virtually no chance of him being a White Sox. Given all that, your remark is wrong. Its a good thing the Sox got Garcia, and they will have him for 3 more seasons.

THE_HOOTER
07-16-2004, 10:13 PM
That is a great point that I missed---

Johnson could say no, and we are stuck with nothing.

We overpaid for Garcia, but we needed him that bad-for now and next year.

TwinsDynasty
07-16-2004, 10:23 PM
I dont see why he's a troll--he has a point.

If we dont make that trade, Johnson is ours--we had everything they wanted.

Also, I dont necessarily disagree with his assesment of Garcia--just not to the extent to call him characterless.

I think he is a tad overrated.

Not worth 9 mil a year, but he was to us--we needed another starter next year with Loiaza leaving.

By the way, The TWINS suck.:troll

fiskfan
07-18-2004, 09:21 AM
I am all for Johnson coming to Chicago but not at the expense of getting rid of too much for him. Diaz, Garland, Cotts, and maybe Crede! Are you nuts?? This trade would be bad, very bad! Johnson isnt no spring chicken and talk about getting into a money contract. He is signed through next year so IF they do fall short this year and maybe one or two player away, how do you sign them by taking on this contract! Too many of you guys are star struck at the possibility of getting Randy Johnson and not thinking of the cost!

Basten
07-18-2004, 06:00 PM
I am all for Johnson coming to Chicago but not at the expense of getting rid of too much for him. Diaz, Garland, Cotts, and maybe Crede! Are you nuts?? This trade would be bad, very bad! Johnson isnt no spring chicken and talk about getting into a money contract. He is signed through next year so IF they do fall short this year and maybe one or two player away, how do you sign them by taking on this contract! Too many of you guys are star struck at the possibility of getting Randy Johnson and not thinking of the cost!OK, everyone wants to keep Mr. Average "I Live and Die with a DP ball" Garland, fine.

But Cotts? He is a one-pitch pitcher who can't get lefties out lately - which is understandable because he is 2-0/3-1 on every batter. Sure his 88-90 mph fastball that he hides well, but people have seriously overrated his "bizarro slider" movement and his "uncanny" ability to pitch up in the zone. Sure, that crap may work in AA, but in the majors people are either letting that pitch go for a ball or have enough top-hand to smoke it......What the **** happened to his CURVE and CHANGE? Who the **** do you expect him to survive in the bigs as a starter?

Crede? Good defense, but it's not that good - 3 dropped pop ups in the span of 10 innings and countless times the ball got "stuck" in his mitt during this season are yet another testament. No energy, total base-clogger. He used to be such a good clutch fastball hitter, had power to all-fields and could hit the ball literally off his shoe-laces in 2002. Now his bat is slow, swing loopy, he's trying to pull off EVERYTHING, resulting in countless mistakes either fouled off or popped up.........Is THIS the future we're trying to "preserve" and win the elusive WS with???!!!! Shilling, Pedro, Brown, Vasquez, Mulder and Hudson will eat.him.alive. in high-pressure post-season games. Alive.

Diaz has a little better stuff than Cotts and Rauch, but he is still not nearly as good as advertised, seems to be pitching behind all the time.

I said Sox had to come into Oakland and take at least 3 out of 4 and show Randy Johnson they're serious about winning. Instead, they laid down like selfish, heartless bitches they've been for 4 years now.....If I am RJ, I don't even take KW's call at this point.