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Lip Man 1
07-16-2004, 12:48 AM
I think this may have slipped by the boards because the Sox won both Saturday and Sunday but consider...

Saturday against a rookie pitcher the Sox got three hits...
Sunday the Sox got five hits...
Thursday night the Sox got four hits...

12 hits TOTAL in three games.

That sounds like another slump and on this road trip that could be disastrous.

Lip

JB98
07-16-2004, 12:52 AM
I think this may have slipped by the boards because the Sox won both Saturday and Sunday but consider...

Saturday against a rookie pitcher the Sox got three hits...
Sunday the Sox got five hits...
Thursday night the Sox got four hits...

12 hits TOTAL in three games.

That sounds like another slump and on this road trip that could be disastrous.
Frankly, I don't think we ever came out of the last slump. We had one nice comeback vs. Anaheim. Other than that, no good offensive games since the last trip to Minnesota.

pearso66
07-16-2004, 01:02 AM
And I'm glad we were able to win a couple games while slumping. Our offense cant always be on. I don't care if it was against a team like Seattle. Last year we don't win those games.

Nellie_Fox
07-16-2004, 01:18 AM
I've been told in the past, on this board, that I was out of touch with modern baseball when I said that building a team around offense will give you fits. Offense comes and goes. It slumps and surges. Defense shows up at the ballpark every day.

I'm not saying you can't win with offense over defense. It's been done many times. It's just that it will be streaky and unpredictable. If you have a team built around offense, you can't get your undies in a bundle over every slump.

jabrch
07-16-2004, 04:16 AM
:chickenlittle

For the love of mercy - we are in first place.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-16-2004, 04:27 AM
:chickenlittle

For the love of mercy - we are in first place.Boy, isn't that the truth. It only takes one loss by a first-place team for some our posters to show their true colors. This has been some very sad reading the post-game comments. All the usual suspects, too. You know who you are.

Frank Thomas is out. If the offense is struggling, it's because we've been missing one or the other of our top-two hitters for 6 weeks now.

Joe Borchard is only here because Frank is out and Maggs is still recovering. He got $5 million because he was a #1 pick. How ironic that the bitching would have been endless if the Sox hadn't coughed up the money -- by the very people bitching that he did get the money. Totally ridiculous...

Garland loses a game (Shock! In Oakland!) so now he is Dorothy again. Lohse lost to Kansas City last night. Does than make him Toto?

Some of you people are ****ing ridiculous. Take a valium and go soak your heads. The Sox play another game later today. Sheesh...

jabrch
07-16-2004, 04:40 AM
No kidding George. Some people are just never happy. I imagine our WS winning night with Lip griping about the payroll, and the FOBB blaming KW for us winning in 6 and not 4.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-16-2004, 05:06 AM
I think this may have slipped by the boards because the Sox won both Saturday and Sunday but consider...

Saturday against a rookie pitcher the Sox got three hits...
Sunday the Sox got five hits...
Thursday night the Sox got four hits...

12 hits TOTAL in three games.

That sounds like another slump and on this road trip that could be disastrous.

Lip
We won two of those games, Lip. Learn to deal with the success.

:chickenlittle

SSN721
07-16-2004, 05:56 AM
We won 2 of those games. I am glad that this team can win these games this year. Never would have last year. I was as frustrated as anyone here, and of course it isnt good for this to happen in Oakland of all places. Yes we are in a funk, but we lost our best hitter and Maggs still has to get his stroke back. ALthough hitting the homer last night was a nice start. I am not worried yet.

jeremyb1
07-16-2004, 06:55 AM
I've been told in the past, on this board, that I was out of touch with modern baseball when I said that building a team around offense will give you fits. Offense comes and goes. It slumps and surges. Defense shows up at the ballpark every day.

I'm not saying you can't win with offense over defense. It's been done many times. It's just that it will be streaky and unpredictable. If you have a team built around offense, you can't get your undies in a bundle over every slump.

Well offense is always going to be inconsistent to a certain degree as is the case with pitching. At the beginning of the season the first four guys in our rotation were lights out but then Buehrle got crushed four out of five starts while Loaiza, Garland, and Schoeneweis watched their ERAs shoot up from the threes to the mid fours. No aspect of baseball is completely consistent. Guys even have fielding slumps as Jose did early on this season.

That said, as far as our offense goes I think it's always going to be somewhat inconsistent as a result of the fact that it's largely based on power. Extra base hits are not always going to happen with consistency especially since a pitcher is ussually required to make a mistake and then the hitter must take advantage of that mistake. An offense based on OBP will often be somewhat different because the ability to walk and take pitches is one of the most repeatable skills in the game. Sure, you'll still have trouble getting Greg Maddux to walk a bunch of people but it's easier than hitting home runs against a guy that's pitching lights out. Taking your walks is much more conducive to the notion of "manufacturing runs".

joeynach
07-16-2004, 08:34 AM
I think this may have slipped by the boards because the Sox won both Saturday and Sunday but consider...

Saturday against a rookie pitcher the Sox got three hits...
Sunday the Sox got five hits...
Thursday night the Sox got four hits...

12 hits TOTAL in three games.

That sounds like another slump and on this road trip that could be disastrous.

Lip
Frankly last night was a disaster. Harden has no beeaking ball and only got his fastball and change over, we should have beat up on him. We swung at good pitches, but grounded out a lot. I still maintain harris/perez/gload/burke/davis should not be everyday starters but rather replacments and spot starters. Im not really hot on borchard, never was, he was here last year and hit like .150. Without Frank in this middle of this lineup runs are going to be hard to come by. Even if he is not hitting he usally gets on base 1 time per game via a walk. Sorry but Borcahrd and his upper cut swing are not a good enough replacement. Kenny really needs to get us another solid bat. And i dont care if Harden was a righty, Uribe and Rowand should have been starting instead of two guys hitting 255 and 265 at the top of our order. And dont blame this on Garland im not gonna sit here and complain about 7 innings pitched and 4 runs. PLus he got abosultly no calls at the plate.

JDP
07-16-2004, 08:36 AM
12 hits that equaled 2 wins. Works for me....

DaveIsHere
07-16-2004, 08:38 AM
GOD!!! DROP IT, CAN YOU PEOPLE NOT BE POSITIVE, FIRST WE ARE WINNING CAUSE WE ARE RELYING ON OUR OFFENSE TOO MUCH, NOW ITS WE ARE RELYING ON OUR PITCHIN/DEFENSE TOO MUCH, WE ARE PROVING THAT WE CAN WIN ANY TYPE OF GAME FOR HEAVENS SAKE BE HAPPY


I HEARBY DECLARE

:threadsucks

ma_deuce
07-16-2004, 08:57 AM
I gotta agree with Lip on this one. The Sox are not coming through as we should. Thats not to say the sky is falling, but that we are underacheiving. And though it is great to win a few games while underacheiving, it most certainly isn't a good thing overall.

Hopefully, the Sox will shake it off and start getting some more wins. And they are going to need it, as this is a very easy month for the Twins and a moderately tough one for us.

Deuce

starboy0
07-16-2004, 09:03 AM
I think some of the pessimistic talk is just blowing off steam after watching a game that wasn't all that pretty.

People come here to get it off their chest. If I'm ticked that Garland had a bad outing, or our batters looked surprisingly outmatched I would never want to talk about that with friends who are cubbie fans.

One cubbie fan friend keeps bringing up how the Sox were swept by the cubbies and were shut down offensively. I just want him to shut up and then proceed to let him know what the stats say about who is the better offensive club. But here I can come in and say, "damn...the hitting really was pathetic!"

There are the perpetually pessismistic, yes. But it's just a fact that after a loss there are going to be negative posts which are a means of venting.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-16-2004, 09:11 AM
I think some of the pessimistic talk is just blowing off steam after watching a game that wasn't all that pretty.

People come here to get it off their chest. If I'm ticked that Garland had a bad outing, or our batters looked surprisingly outmatched I would never want to talk about that with friends who are cubbie fans.
Well if this is the case, we can expect to see plenty more "post-loss therapy" threads inside the Roadhouse.

"Blowing off steam" is what the Roadhouse is for, not Sox Clubhouse.

:therapy:
"The doctor is in, with plenty of prozac for all my patients."

Dan H
07-16-2004, 09:13 AM
Sox fans don't have to panic, but there is enough to be concerned about. The Sox have trouble scoring runs when they aren't hitting homers in bunches. I don't think that can be laughed off as a little slump; it has been like that for some time.

Yes, the Sox are in first place, but only by a 1/2 game. They have the lowest winning percentage of the division leaders in the American League. Let's hope their hitting comes around soon. This is a tough road trip, and it would be a good sign if they ended up .500 for the ten games. But they won't do that if all runs come by the home run.

hold2dibber
07-16-2004, 09:13 AM
I understand why people are sick of the "sky is falling" reaction around that results after every loss or slump. But I think there is reason to be concerned about the offense. First, the success of the offense in the first half was in large part due to the success of Harris and Uribe at the top of the order. They are both slumping now and neither has a track record to suggest that they'll be able to play at a high level for the rest of the year. Plus, the Sox have now lost Thomas, their best hitter and most consistent OBP guy for a long stretch. I really think the Sox need to add a top-of-the-lineup bat; someone who can get onbase and help generate offense. Otherwise, we're going to see too many solo home runs and not enough "crooked numbers" on the board. I still think Jason Kendall satisfies just about every need the Sox have offensively; but I haven't heard anything to make me think he's being targeted by KW. In the absence of an acquisition, it is imperative that someone (or two) among Harris, Uribe, Perez and Rowand has a solid second half.

Jerko
07-16-2004, 09:27 AM
I think some of the pessimistic talk is just blowing off steam after watching a game that wasn't all that pretty.

People come here to get it off their chest. If I'm ticked that Garland had a bad outing, or our batters looked surprisingly outmatched I would never want to talk about that with friends who are cubbie fans.

One cubbie fan friend keeps bringing up how the Sox were swept by the cubbies and were shut down offensively. I just want him to shut up and then proceed to let him know what the stats say about who is the better offensive club. But here I can come in and say, "damn...the hitting really was pathetic!"

There are the perpetually pessismistic, yes. But it's just a fact that after a loss there are going to be negative posts which are a means of venting.


That's right! Also, the people who shoot down and ridicule those who are "venting" with the old "we're in first place" or "The sky is falling" arguments are getting as annoying as scrub fans who lean on the attendance issue to prove that their team is perfect. The SOX are not perfect, people; first place or not they DO have issues, so back off the people who come here and point those issues out. Do some people act like the sky is falling and the Sox are never gonna win again? Yes they do, but they're no more annoying than the "hey we're in first" argument that gets brought up every time someone here is upset that the Sox lost. Gee, not caring about when your team loses? Who does THAT sound like?

PaleHoseGeorge
07-16-2004, 09:35 AM
That's right! Also, the people who shoot down and ridicule those who are "venting" with the old "we're in first place" or "The sky is falling" arguments are getting as annoying as scrub fans who lean on the attendance issue to prove that their team is perfect. The SOX are not perfect, people; first place or not they DO have issues, so back off the people who come here and point those issues out. Do some people act like the sky is falling and the Sox are never gonna win again? Yes they do, but they're no more annoying than the "hey we're in first" argument that gets brought up every time someone here is upset that the Sox lost. Gee, not caring about when your team loses? Who does THAT sound like?
Oh, please... 90 percent of the posts are right here. Can you quit complaining about the other 10 percent getting shoved in the Roadhouse? That place is for over-the-top **** and posts like this are precisely that.

If reports are true that the mariners would have taken Borchard instead of Reed, Williams ought to be fired. Borchard is so far, the only player that I know that gets promoted to the majors with a .267 AAA average. Let's face it, the kid is a wash-out.

Jose Borchard: 0-for-5 Tool Player.

Joe Borchard has done the impossible: Make Royce Clayton look like Ted Williams.

Not really. Closer to Ty Cobb.

Oh, come on. He is a tool, so that makes him a 1-tool player.

Well it looks again as if Judy Garland has come back to walk batters that will inevitably cross the plate. Anyone else think Jonny's 2 starts before this were just flukes?

Therapy now available for maniacal Sox Fans inside the Roadhouse. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=12)

Jerko
07-16-2004, 10:38 AM
Oh, please... 90 percent of the posts are right here. Can you quit complaining about the other 10 percent getting shoved in the Roadhouse? That place is for over-the-top **** and posts like this are precisely that.

If reports are true that the mariners would have taken Borchard instead of Reed, Williams ought to be fired. Borchard is so far, the only player that I know that gets promoted to the majors with a .267 AAA average. Let's face it, the kid is a wash-out.

[i]Jose Borchard: 0-for-5 Tool Player.

[i]Joe Borchard has done the impossible: Make Royce Clayton look like Ted Williams.

[i]Not really. Closer to Ty Cobb.

[i]Oh, come on. He is a tool, so that makes him a 1-tool player.

[i]Well it looks again as if Judy Garland has come back to walk batters that will inevitably cross the plate. Anyone else think Jonny's 2 starts before this were just flukes?


First off, none of those quotes are mine, and I agree they BELONG in the roadhouse. Where did I complain about posts being moved? I LIKE the post- game threads; actually, I'm pretty sure I was the one who suggested them when the game day threads were euthanized. My point was and remains this: Shouting down a WSI'er who makes a GOOD POINT in the post game thread by posting "the sky is falling" or saying "we're in first" while offering NO baseball related rebuttal whatsoever is worse than somebody making an intelligent 'negative' post after a loss. I don't see where I brought up posts being moved or where I defended the above quotes. I didn't even read that roadhouse crap yet.

Blob
07-16-2004, 11:26 AM
Boy, isn't that the truth. It only takes one loss by a first-place team for some our posters to show their true colors. This has been some very sad reading the post-game comments. All the usual suspects, too. You know who you are.

Frank Thomas is out. If the offense is struggling, it's because we've been missing one or the other of our top-two hitters for 6 weeks now.

Joe Borchard is only here because Frank is out and Maggs is still recovering. He got $5 million because he was a #1 pick. How ironic that the bitching would have been endless if the Sox hadn't coughed up the money -- by the very people bitching that he did get the money. Totally ridiculous...

Garland loses a game (Shock! In Oakland!) so now he is Dorothy again. Lohse lost to Kansas City last night. Does than make him Toto?

Some of you people are ****ing ridiculous. Take a valium and go soak your heads. The Sox play another game later today. Sheesh...
Awesome! I think your post and jabrch's are dead on. Everyone is so panicy. We are still in first. We did have a couple of chances to win last night. There is still half the season, minus one game, left to play. Let's not hit the panic button just yet...

Lip Man 1
07-16-2004, 11:42 AM
Folks you are correct... the Sox won two of those games where they didn't hit well. Of course it was against Seattle, one of the worst teams in the league, and the Sox were at home. (I guess that slipped by some of you as well...)

Let's see if the Sox can win two games on this road trip getting only four or five hits.

I was pointing out the fact that the past few games the offense has been disappearing again. Nothing 'over the top' about that, nothing outrageous about that comment, no 'sky is falling' BS. The Sox got 12 hits total in their last three games. What does that tell you?

To say some of you overreacted would be the understatement of the year.

Once again the people who seem to make the most sense are the people who have watched this franchise for a very long time, Nellie and Dan.

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
07-16-2004, 11:45 AM
When you live by the homer, you die when you don't homer. One two-run shot won't cut it. The Sox offense is one-dimensional. They need a multidimensional attack.

The top of the lineup is deplorable right now. No one is getting on base for the power in the middle to drive in runs.

However, thank goodness they can play this bad and remain in first place. Thank goodness the Sox have good starting pitching.

Instead of targeting Randy Johnson (and overpaying), they need to get Kendall or Steve Finley, or maybe both. (Although Finley would have to agree to a deal.) They should be able to get both for a price equal to (or less) than what Arizona will extract for Johnson. Get both these guys and the Sox offense will go into hyperdrive.

The sky is not falling for me; I remain on the bandwagon. But I do see some bumps in the road.