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View Full Version : We're in the final 4 for Randy Johnson


BainesHOF
07-15-2004, 01:40 AM
The New York Times will report Thursday that we're among the final four teams in the running to trade for Randy Johnson. The other three are the Yankees, Red Sox and Angels. The New York Post is saying the Cubs are also a finalist, though that doesn't make sense to me, and the Post traditionally is not as reliable as the Times. In any case, Kenny Williams continues to work it. Remember that Randy Johnson would still have to approve coming to play for us, but at this point it's nice to be able to daydream that he might be pitching for us before long.

Cowch44
07-15-2004, 01:49 AM
Out of those other three....I'd like him to go to The Angels, mostly because I hate the Yanks, Boston's good enough, but the Angels don't really mean much to me.

OEO Magglio
07-15-2004, 01:52 AM
Out of those other three....I'd like him to go to The Angels, mostly because I hate the Yanks, Boston's good enough, but the Angels don't really mean much to me.The yanks and bosox don't have enough to get him, plus the fact he won't play in boston. If the angels cough up the prospects they have the most likely chance but by the looks of it they don't want to get rid of their spects. So that basically leaves the white sox, rj will either be an angel a white sox(pipedream), or stay in arizona. I say the sox are a huge contender for him but I still just don't see it happening because it would be to good to be true.

HomeFish
07-15-2004, 01:53 AM
WFLD-32 said that he is interested in the Yankees and the Cards; definately not the BoSox.

TDog
07-15-2004, 01:59 AM
Out of those other three....I'd like him to go to The Angels, mostly because I hate the Yanks, Boston's good enough, but the Angels don't really mean much to me.
The Associate Press ran a story today talking with the Angels owner. I do not have a link because I did not read it on the Internet.

He said there are two reasons why he has no interest in Randy Johnson.

First, he said he will not trade any prospects, certainly not the ones other teams might be interested in.

Second, he said HE PLANS TO CUT PAYROLL NEXT YEAR.

doublem23
07-15-2004, 02:04 AM
Second, he said HE PLANS TO CUT PAYROLL NEXT YEAR.
Ah, Mr. Moreno is feeling the responsibilities of spending money like a drunken pirate.

pudge
07-15-2004, 02:20 AM
Ah, Mr. Moreno is feeling the responsibilities of spending money like a drunken pirate.
HAHAHA! Nice.

lowesox
07-15-2004, 02:25 AM
IS anybody else nervous about who we'd give up for Johnson? I have the feeling that, given the other suitors, the Sox would have to include at least two untouchable-type players. I'll bet that Jon Garland is definitely one of those players. As well as either Crede or Brian Anderson.

I'd like the see RJ on the southside, but only if the price is right. And quite frankly, I'd give up Anderson, but not Crede or Garland.

OEO Magglio
07-15-2004, 02:27 AM
IS anybody else nervous about who we'd give up for Johnson? I have the feeling that, given the other suitors, the Sox would have to include at least two untouchable-type players. I'll bet that Jon Garland is definitely one of those players. As well as either Crede or Brian Anderson.

I'd like the see RJ on the southside, but only if the price is right. And quite frankly, I'd give up Anderson, but not Crede or Garland.Definitely not Garland. Crede I'd only trade if we'd be able to set up a package to get rj and hillenbrand in the deal. But JG better not be moved.

Aidan
07-15-2004, 02:46 AM
WFLD-32 said that he is interested in the Yankees and the Cards; definately not the BoSox.Yep, Corey McFerrin said it tonight. Either the Yankmees or the Cardinals.

But if RJ would even waive his no-trade clause for us (doubtful), it would probably cost us Neal Cotts, Felix Diaz, and Brian Anderson.

ChiWhiteSox1337
07-15-2004, 02:59 AM
Yep, Corey McFerrin said it tonight. Either the Yankmees or the Cardinals.

But if RJ would even waive his no-trade clause for us (doubtful), it would probably cost us Neal Cotts, Felix Diaz, and Brian Anderson. well, if that could bring us RJ and JR is willing to pay the $$$ for him, i won't miss cotts, diaz, or anderson.

owensmouth
07-15-2004, 03:00 AM
I sure wouldn't want to see the Sox have to go up against Schilling, Randy Johnson and then Pedro in the playoffs.

ChiWhiteSox1337
07-15-2004, 03:03 AM
I sure wouldn't want to see the Sox have to go up against Schilling, Randy Johnson and then Pedro in the playoffs. exactly, if RJ gets traded to even ANY AL team other than the sox, we're pretty much screwed. you need a miracle to beat RJ in the playoffs and he's able to pitch 2 games in a 5 game series.

jeremyb1
07-15-2004, 03:13 AM
exactly, if RJ gets traded to even ANY AL team other than the sox, we're pretty much screwed. you need a miracle to beat RJ in the playoffs and he's able to pitch 2 games in a 5 game series.

Not when he was with Houston and Seattle.

Aidan
07-15-2004, 03:38 AM
Not when he was with Houston and Seattle.Yeah, he wasn't too impressive then.

ChiWhiteSox1337
07-15-2004, 05:27 AM
Yeah, he wasn't too impressive then. That was then. Since then, he's won the world series co-MVP with curt schilling and 4 cy young awards in 5 seasons with the dbacks.

samram
07-15-2004, 07:55 AM
That was then. Since then, he's won the world series co-MVP with curt schilling and 4 cy young awards in 5 seasons with the dbacks.
The Cards beat the D-Backs in 2002, but I get your drift. Facing all three of those guys would be pretty tough. However, he won't go to Boston because of his feelings toward Schilling. I think he's staying put- the Yanks can only work this out with another team, and I don't know who they would trade to that team that would be attractive. Their prospects are scarce and their major league players are expensive, so I dont see this happening.

hold2dibber
07-15-2004, 08:23 AM
I think it's unlikely that Johnson will waive his no-trade to come here. I'd love to see him go to St. Louis (under the old "my enemy's enemy is my friend" theory).

steff
07-15-2004, 08:54 AM
IS anybody else nervous about who we'd give up for Johnson?


Apparently he has no interest in coming here so I have no worries.

thepaulbowski
07-15-2004, 09:34 AM
Yeah, he wasn't too impressive then.
What? He was 10-1 for the Astros and won a playoff game for them. Those stats are pretty impressive.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=4288

WhiteSoxFan84
07-15-2004, 09:42 AM
I still say get JAMIE MOYER!! He won't cost us a ton of prospects and isn't getting paid too much ($7,000,000). DO IT!

harwar
07-15-2004, 09:50 AM
Apparently he has no interest in coming here so I have no worries.Thats what i hear also.
I used to live in tempe and stay in contact with folks out there and i guess Randy wants no part of the south side.It seems finley has the same attitude.
That needs to change.
I can see him in boston if they were willing to pay because Randy & Curts' family are close.
He wants to stay in the NL but i think if he goes anywhere its the yankees or the angels.

Mickster
07-15-2004, 09:53 AM
I sure wouldn't want to see the Sox have to go up against Schilling, Randy Johnson and then Pedro in the playoffs.
Nor would the Yankmees or BoSox like to see RJ, Buehrle & Garcia.... :smile:

Brian26
07-15-2004, 10:06 AM
exactly, if RJ gets traded to even ANY AL team other than the sox, we're pretty much screwed. you need a miracle to beat RJ in the playoffs and he's able to pitch 2 games in a 5 game series.

Even more importantly than that- Remember that in a short series (especially the 5-game first round), a good manager will actually streamline his pitching staff. Jack McKeon did this last year beautifully. You keep your big 3 starters in the rotation, and you still utilize your closer and set-up man....BUT, if NEED BE, any of your big starting pitchers can come out of the pen to work relief in a Game 3, 4 or 5. McKeon did this last year with Beckett and Willis. The Red Sox did this last year with Lowe. Imagine the White Sox having a starting three of Buehrle, Garcia, and RJ....with Garland and ELo in the bullpen, and, if need be, being capable of bringing the Big Unit in for relief late in a game. That's almost mind-blowingly good.

Foulke You
07-15-2004, 10:30 AM
ESPN 1000 Mike and Mike show is saying that the White Sox are one of the 5 teams an RJ trade is being considered with. They said that apparently the White Sox, Cubs, Yanks, Red Sox, and Angels are the 5 contending teams Randy Johnson has said he would waive his no trade clause to. They went on to say that the Cubs are the biggest longshot of the five because it has been rumored that Arizona does not want to trade RJ to an NL club, hence 4 of the 5 teams on the list being AL clubs.

When you consider RJ's strained relationship with Schilling in Boston, the fact that the Cubs are an NL team, and the Angels possibly not wanting to take on another bloated contract, am I crazy to think that the RJ sweepstakes is a two team race between the beloved White Sox and the hated Yanks? If it is about money for Arizona, I think we will lose him to NYY, but if it is prospects they are interested in...there is a chance KW could pull off the biggest trade in White Sox history. Any word on what Arizona is looking for? I'm assuming cheap young pitchers are at the top of their list but I'm not aware of their other needs either. I'm salivating at the thought of RJ wearing Sox pinstripes in a rotation with Garcia, Loaiza, and Buehrle.

Kuzman
07-15-2004, 10:46 AM
if we were to get RJ, wouldnt that make us put Shoe in the pen? also didnt he say if he were to go back to the pen he would want to leave? Scott should improve in the next week or 2 and look impressive so we can trade him to Arizona with some prospects for the big unit

Basten
07-15-2004, 10:46 AM
. In any case, Kenny Williams continues to work it. Remember that Randy Johnson would still have to approve coming to play for us, but at this point it's nice to be able to daydream that he might be pitching for us before long.That's good to hear that KW (read: JR) is at least trying - more like upkeeping the apperance that he's trying.

Of course Sox didn't help their cause by being only 0.5 games up in ALC. I think if they were 5 games up AND Frank wasn't facing possible season-ending surgery, the prospect of coming to the South Side would be a bit more attractive to RJ. I am thinking Unit wants to pitch in postseason more and win the WS ring in AL.

At this point, Sox simply have to OUTBID other suitors - by a good margin.

I am amazed at how many people are unwilling to give up Garland as though he were Ben Sheets - ok, the guy has a good sinker, so what? His breaking ball is erratic and mental make-up - querstionable. He could very well be gone after 2005 as a Free Agent - same as Randy Johnson, basically.

Garland + Anderson + Diaz/Rauch - why the hell not?

OEO Magglio
07-15-2004, 10:49 AM
ESPN 1000 Mike and Mike show is saying that the White Sox are one of the 5 teams an RJ trade is being considered with. They said that apparently the White Sox, Cubs, Yanks, Red Sox, and Angels are the 5 contending teams Randy Johnson has said he would waive his no trade clause to. They went on to say that the Cubs are the biggest longshot of the five because it has been rumored that Arizona does not want to trade RJ to an NL club, hence 4 of the 5 teams on the list being AL clubs.

When you consider RJ's strained relationship with Schilling in Boston, the fact that the Cubs are an NL team, and the Angels possibly not wanting to take on another bloated contract, am I crazy to think that the RJ sweepstakes is a two team race between the beloved White Sox and the hated Yanks? If it is about money for Arizona, I think we will lose him to NYY, but if it is prospects they are interested in...there is a chance KW could pull off the biggest trade in White Sox history. Any word on what Arizona is looking for? I'm assuming cheap young pitchers are at the top of their list but I'm not aware of their other needs either. I'm salivating at the thought of RJ wearing Sox pinstripes in a rotation with Garcia, Loaiza, and Buehrle.Foulke, I still think it's a two team race between the white sox and angels. Bosox and yanks don't have enough, I just don't see the flubs trading for a starting pitcher. That leaves the chisox and angels, if arte moreno is serious about not making a push for rj(some people think it's a bluff) then it comes down to the white sox. If arte is bluffing the angels still have the best shot to get him.

Tekijawa
07-15-2004, 10:51 AM
ESPN 1000 Mike and Mike show is saying that the White Sox are one of the 5 teams an RJ trade is being considered with. They said that apparently the White Sox, Cubs, Yanks, Red Sox, and Angels are the 5 contending teams Randy Johnson has said he would waive his no trade clause to. They went on to say that the Cubs are the biggest longshot of the five because it has been rumored that Arizona does not want to trade RJ to an NL club, hence 4 of the 5 teams on the list being AL clubs.

When you consider RJ's strained relationship with Schilling in Boston, the fact that the Cubs are an NL team, and the Angels possibly not wanting to take on another bloated contract, am I crazy to think that the RJ sweepstakes is a two team race between the beloved White Sox and the hated Yanks? If it is about money for Arizona, I think we will lose him to NYY, but if it is prospects they are interested in...there is a chance KW could pull off the biggest trade in White Sox history. Any word on what Arizona is looking for? I'm assuming cheap young pitchers are at the top of their list but I'm not aware of their other needs either. I'm salivating at the thought of RJ wearing Sox pinstripes in a rotation with Garcia, Loaiza, and Buehrle.
I'd Like to dream about something like this but, my guess is that Steff probably knows a little more on the subject than the rest of us dreamers here on this board... I'd love it to happen but I really don't think it will.:whiner:

Dadawg_77
07-15-2004, 10:51 AM
The only thing bad about acquiring RJ would be I would have to revisit my opinion on Kenny. But I think the Sox could have finalized this deal if they still had Reed around to trade for RJ. For Johnson, I wouldn't think there are any untouchables in the minor leagues and on the MLB roster Thomas, Buehrle and Mags come are it.

Dadawg_77
07-15-2004, 10:52 AM
Foulke, I still think it's a two team race between the white sox and angels. Bosox and yanks don't have enough, I just don't see the flubs trading for a starting pitcher. That leaves the chisox and angels, if arte moreno is serious about not making a push for rj(some people think it's a bluff) then it comes down to the white sox. If arte is bluffing the angels still have the best shot to get him.
Well if the Cubs get RJ, they then can flip Clemet to Boston for Nomar.

Tekijawa
07-15-2004, 10:55 AM
What would you guys think about ELO and prospects for Johnson?

TDog
07-15-2004, 10:58 AM
I still say get JAMIE MOYER!! He won't cost us a ton of prospects and isn't getting paid too much ($7,000,000). DO IT!
Moyer is hugely popular in Seattle. I don't know why. Between innings of Mariners games on the radio, I hear public service announcements by Moyer. Trading Moyer would create credibility problems for the Mariners with the fans, meaning that whoever traded for him would have to overpay.

Likewise, the Diamondbacks would have a credibility problem with their fans if they traded Johnson. The team recently won a World Series, but trading Johnson could turn the fans off to Major League Baseball in the Desert Southwest. I don't believe he should be traded, but if he is, the team that gets him most likely will have to overpay.

Dadawg_77
07-15-2004, 11:00 AM
What would you guys think about ELO and prospects for Johnson?
Sure. Too me, Johnson is a differnce maker that Sox need. Getting Randy would almost get me randy about the Sox chances.

beckett21
07-15-2004, 11:02 AM
I'm sorry to say but I think some people are misreading the situation.

Who is pulling the strings in AZ? It's Randy, no? I don't know that offering up *the best package* is going to be the difference here.

Randy will only approve a trade where Randy wants to go; unless I am confused, Randy goes where he wants. He calls the shots.

Or am I mistaken? :?:

Please feel free to set me straight on this one, since I am probably not following this as closely as some of you here. I'd like to see him here for this season, and I'm glad we are in the *running,* but common sense just won't let me believe it could happen.

Mickster
07-15-2004, 11:03 AM
Sure. Too me, Johnson is a differnce maker that Sox need. Getting Randy would almost get me randy about the Sox chances.http://www.geocities.com/austinpowers3us/austin.jpg

"Dadwg_77, do I make you randy?"

Paulwny
07-15-2004, 11:03 AM
Likewise, the Diamondbacks would have a credibility problem with their fans if they traded Johnson. The team recently won a World Series, but trading Johnson could turn the fans off to Major League Baseball in the Desert Southwest. I don't believe he should be traded, but if he is, the team that gets him most likely will have to overpay.
Yep, big decision for the D-Backs. They draw over 30,000 when Johnson pitches.

beckett21
07-15-2004, 11:06 AM
The only thing bad about acquiring RJ would be I would have to revisit my opinion on Kenny. Yeah, God Forbid that would be a NIGHTMARE! :redneck

But I think the Sox could have finalized this deal if they still had Reed around to trade for RJ. :bs:

Randy is running the show as far as I am concerned. He only comes here if he WANTS to, not because the D-backs tell him to.

Paulwny
07-15-2004, 11:08 AM
I'm sorry to say but I think some people are misreading the situation.

Who is pulling the strings in AZ? It's Randy, no? I don't know that offering up *the best package* is going to be the difference here.

Randy will only approve a trade where Randy wants to go; unless I am confused, Randy goes where he wants. He calls the shots.

Or am I mistaken? :?:

Please feel free to set me straight on this one, since I am probably not following this as closely as some of you here. I'd like to see him here for this season, and I'm glad we are in the *running,* but common sense just won't let me believe it could happen.
Bingo, as I've stated before, RJ holds the cards, it's his decision where he wants to play. The only option the D-Backs have is not to trade him if they don't like the deal offered by the team he'd be willing to play for.

PorkChopExpress
07-15-2004, 11:13 AM
Bingo, as I've stated before, RJ holds the cards, it's his decision where he wants to play. The only option the D-Backs have is not to trade him if they don't like the deal offered by the team he'd be willing to play for.
But the D-Backs won't even ask him to waive his no-trade clause unless it's a good deal for them. And RJ has said he will do what's best for him and for the D-Backs. That leads me to believe that things start with good offers to the D-Backs. Yeah, in the end, RJ holds the cards, but there needs to be something good for the D-Backs to get things started, and I don't think money alone is going to do that.

Dadawg_77
07-15-2004, 11:13 AM
Yeah, God Forbid that would be a NIGHTMARE! :redneck

:bs:

Randy is running the show as far as I am concerned. He only comes here if he WANTS to, not because the D-backs tell him to.
What I think would happen is Randy gives the D Back a certain amount of teams, whether or not the Sox are in that list I don't know. Then the D Backs go out and find the best deal, including Reed and Olivo would put the Sox offer past anything the other teams could do without crippling their team. If you recall when the possibility of trading for Garcia was discuss, I said the Sox should wait since there would be a lot better pitchers on the market before July 31. No need to waste your load on Freddy.

JDP
07-15-2004, 11:16 AM
Nice worthless signature

beckett21
07-15-2004, 11:16 AM
Bingo, as I've stated before, RJ holds the cards, it's his decision where he wants to play. The only option the D-Backs have is not to trade him if they don't like the deal offered by the team he'd be willing to play for.Thank you. That's exactly how I understand it.

My purpose is not to discourage people from talking about this, because that's half the fun of a message board.

But not getting this done is not necessarily an indictment of KW and JR; as a matter of fact, it seems that they are giving this a legitimate run. That's all we can ask. But I honestly don't think that it comes down to *best offer.* It comes down to where does Randy want to play.

So, in essence, if we don't get Randy, we only have Randy to blame IMO.

dickallen15
07-15-2004, 11:18 AM
Well if the Cubs get RJ, they then can flip Clemet to Boston for Nomar.
If the Cubs don't want to pay Nomar's salary, they aren't going to want to pay Johnson's.

bobj4400
07-15-2004, 11:21 AM
Not when he was with Houston and Seattle.
He went 10-1 down the stretch, and then won both of the games Houston won in the divisional series against the Padres (which the Stros lost 3-2). I guess that isnt too good though.

Paulwny
07-15-2004, 11:21 AM
But the D-Backs won't even ask him to waive his no-trade clause unless it's a good deal for them. And RJ has said he will do what's best for him and for the D-Backs. That leads me to believe that things start with good offers to the D-Backs. Yeah, in the end, RJ holds the cards, but there needs to be something good for the D-Backs to get things started, and I don't think money alone is going to do that.
I agree, with Dadawg77's post. RJ has or will notify the D-Backs as to which teams he'll play for. It's then up to them to negotiate a deal with these teams. If they don't feel their getting fair value then they don't trade him.

beckett21
07-15-2004, 11:24 AM
What I think would happen is Randy gives the D Back a certain amount of teams, whether or not the Sox are in that list I don't know. Then the D Backs go out and find the best deal, including Reed and Olivo would put the Sox offer past anything the other teams could do without crippling their team. If you recall when the possibility of trading for Garcia was discuss, I said the Sox should wait since there would be a lot better pitchers on the market before July 31. No need to waste your load on Freddy.I totally understand and respect where you are coming from. And yes, I know that you were against Garcia from day 1.

Ultimately, I believe RJ has the right of refusal on any deal. So he has to want to come here.

Reed would be a nice chip to have, but I think that if Borchard/Anderson are made available, a package including one of them would be enough to get it done. I don't know that those guys would be that much of a dropoff from Reed, and by the same token I don't know that Reed would slam-dunk the deal either.

And to be fair, all this RJ talk was squashed earlier in the season, when it was pretty much *public knowledge* that RJ would NOT leave AZ, nor would they trade him. KW couldn't wait because there was no way he could know for SURE that RJ would be available. Kenny got what was deemed to be the best pitcher on the market for this season. All this Johnson stuff came out of left field.

Mickster
07-15-2004, 11:26 AM
And to be fair, all this RJ talk was squashed earlier in the season, when it was pretty much *public knowledge* that RJ would NOT leave AZ, nor would they trade him. KW couldn't wait because there was no way he could know for SURE that RJ would be available. Kenny got what was deemed to be the best pitcher on the market for this season. All this Johnson stuff came out of left field.
Good rebuttal. Took the words right from my mouth. :smile:

jabrch
07-15-2004, 11:31 AM
But not getting this done is not necessarily an indictment of KW and JR; as a matter of fact, it seems that they are giving this a legitimate run. That's all we can ask. But I honestly don't think that it comes down to *best offer.* It comes down to where does Randy want to play.

So, in essence, if we don't get Randy, we only have Randy to blame IMO.
Some need no additional reasons to blame KW and JR - it is just natural.

Reality is this - he will cost, at least, 24mm over the next year and a half. It may not be feasible to add RJ's 17mm salary next year and still field a competitive team. It may happen - it may not. But either way - KW and JR are making an effort. So far, they have done a good job this year - we are in first place last I checked. KW surely will make more moves before it is over - and that excites me!

Dadawg_77
07-15-2004, 11:35 AM
And to be fair, all this RJ talk was squashed earlier in the season, when it was pretty much *public knowledge* that RJ would NOT leave AZ, nor would they trade him. KW couldn't wait because there was no way he could know for SURE that RJ would be available. Kenny got what was deemed to be the best pitcher on the market for this season. All this Johnson stuff came out of left field.
You know, maybe you are right in that Kenny misread the market and got what he thought would be the best pitcher on the market this season. Nothing is for sure but me as an arm chair GM looked at the situation and a great probability that better and cheaper pitchers then Garcia would be on the market before July 31st, what does that say about Kenny if he did read Garcia was the biggest fish out there?

JDP
07-15-2004, 11:37 AM
Reality is this - he will cost, at least, 24mm over the next year and a half. It may not be feasible to add RJ's 17mm salary next year and still field a competitive team.
Randy Johnson, whomever he plays for, will cost that team $11.0M next year.

His contract is structured such as:
2004: $16.0M + $1.0 personal services payment
2005: $16.0M + $1.0 personal services payment

From that base contract, $6.0M each year is deferred until the end of the contract. RJ's 2005 salary, much like this year, shall be $11.0M.

beckett21
07-15-2004, 11:38 AM
Some need no additional reasons to blame KW and JR - it is just natural.

Reality is this - he will cost, at least, 24mm over the next year and a half. It may not be feasible to add RJ's 17mm salary next year and still field a competitive team. It may happen - it may not. But either way - KW and JR are making an effort. So far, they have done a good job this year - we are in first place last I checked. KW surely will make more moves before it is over - and that excites me!
I agree.

I don't know that I even want RJ beyond this season--actually I don't. But the fact that the Sox have not voluntarily pulled out of the running here, unless it is an evil charade because they know they have no chance, is a good sign to me. Kenny is definitely not done, and while some like to hold that against him I love the aggressiveness. He wants to win as much or probably MORE than all of us. I like it.

beckett21
07-15-2004, 11:40 AM
You know, maybe you are right in that Kenny misread the market and got what he thought would be the best pitcher on the market this season. Nothing is for sure but me as an arm chair GM looked at the situation and a great probability that better and cheaper pitchers then Garcia would be on the market before July 31st, what does that say about Kenny if he did read Garcia was the biggest fish out there?
I would then go so far as to say 28 other GM's misread the market as well. OK, maybe 27, I'm sure the Infallible one never misreads anything. :redneck

jabrch
07-15-2004, 11:44 AM
Randy Johnson, whomever he plays for, will cost that team $11.0M next year.

His contract is structured such as:
2004: $16.0M + $1.0 personal services payment
2005: $16.0M + $1.0 personal services payment

From that base contract, $6.0M each year is deferred until the end of the contract. RJ's 2005 salary, much like this year, shall be $11.0M.
wait a sec....deferred to the end of the contract? That's next year. So the 6mm would have to be paid that year. That's 17mm next year - so some of it is due during regular payroll for MLB players and the rest is a lump sum due after the world series - but that is still 17mm next year - right?

Basten
07-15-2004, 11:47 AM
KW couldn't wait because there was no way he could know for SURE that RJ would be available. Kenny got what was deemed to be the best pitcher on the market for this season. All this Johnson stuff came out of left field.Bingo.

Garcia was very good move if you're trying to win NOW...which should be the objective every year as far as re-building the fanbase on the South Side is concerned..

Reed has that wrist issue that may or may not effect his short-term future, he wouldn't have been much help this year anyway. Olivo couldn't hit RHP, made too many errors and his CS-against % was truly pedestrian for someone with such a gun.

Who knew RJ would be available? Hell, we don't even know if he wants to COME here yet.....

Paulwny
07-15-2004, 11:47 AM
I would then go so far as to say 28 other GM's misread the market as well. OK, maybe 27, I'm sure the Infallible one never misreads anything. :redneck
Plus, if the sox aren't on RJ's list of "trade to" teams then KW did pull the trigger at the right time with the Garcia trade.

Tekijawa
07-15-2004, 11:48 AM
wait a sec....deferred to the end of the contract? That's next year. So the 6mm would have to be paid that year. That's 17mm next year - so some of it is due during regular payroll for MLB players and the rest is a lump sum due after the world series - but that is still 17mm next year - right?
I actually think that It's paid out over a Couple of years begining in 2006. Correct me if I'm wrong.

jabrch
07-15-2004, 11:48 AM
I would then go so far as to say 28 other GM's misread the market as well. OK, maybe 27, I'm sure the Infallible one never misreads anything. :redneck
One can easily argue that Garcia is of more value than RJ when one factors in cost, 7mm this year and 17mm next year. It's funny though - when Dawg talks about Scott Hatteberg, it is performance relative to his cost. When we talk about Mark Kotsay - it is that he is a bargain given Oakland's limited resources. Now, when we are talking about the Sox, JR and KW should get the single most expensive player on the trade market - instead of getting Garcia and still being able to spend about 10mm more just to even out the two.

Think about it - RJ next year = 17mm
Garcia = 9, Rentiria = about 9, Manos = -5, Loaiza = -5, Clement = 8, we upgrade at 2 SP spots, SS, and still have 2mm more to spend. Where is the "limited resources" arguement DaDawg - or does that only apply to Billy Beane?

JDP
07-15-2004, 11:49 AM
wait a sec....deferred to the end of the contract? That's next year. So the 6mm would have to be paid that year. That's 17mm next year - so some of it is due during regular payroll for MLB players and the rest is a lump sum due after the world series - but that is still 17mm next year - right?$12.0M starting in 2006 and going until .... that I don't know. Whether it is structured in one lump sum of $12.0 in 2006, spead out over 6 years from '06-'11 @ $2.0 a year, etc...is unknown. The only items I have seen state that he is owed $12.0M (from 2 years of $6.0/year deferred) come 2006.

Either way, his base that he will receive in 2005 is $11.0

jabrch
07-15-2004, 11:51 AM
I actually think that It's paid out over a Couple of years begining in 2006. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Nominal differnce - as we have talked in the many deferred money discussion, 1mm for 1 year costs only $35,000 to move. So for 6mm, hypothetically spread evenly over three years, we are talking about only about 210,000$ in financing costs. Deferred money and backloaded deals, given the low cost of capital toady, really is a non-factor.

32nd&Wallace
07-15-2004, 11:54 AM
Apparently he has no interest in coming here so I have no worries. What about including Loaiza?

Basten
07-15-2004, 12:11 PM
$12.0M starting in 2006 and going until .... that I don't know. Whether it is structured in one lump sum of $12.0 in 2006, spead out over 6 years from '06-'11 @ $2.0 a year, etc...is unknown. The only items I have seen state that he is owed $12.0M (from 2 years of $6.0/year deferred) come 2006.

Either way, his base that he will receive in 2005 is $11.0He is making 16.5 per. 6 is deferred. That means you pay him 5 Mill this year (prorated) and 10.5 in 2005.

Then, beginning with 2006, the process of paying back the other 12 Mill begins. Hell, we got Vic Darenburg and Jerry Hairston, Sr ON THE PAYROLL as we speak - hopefully Sox won't have to pay 12 Mill in 2 big chunks, but rather it would be spread out over, say, 6 year period.

But either way, as things stand now, 2006 is distant future that I do not care to think about. Let's just try to win the Series and get the fans back in 2004 and 2005, and worry about 2006 when it comes. Everybody defers and subsequently pays back these days, hardly the exception.

jabrch
07-15-2004, 12:17 PM
Everybody defers and subsequently pays back these days, hardly the exception.
Oh no - only the evil Jerry Reinsdorf does something like that. (Don't mind contracts to guys like RJ, Sheffield, Schilling, etc. with backloaded and deferred $.)

The Tom
07-15-2004, 12:20 PM
What about this: LTP, Cotts, Rauch, Tracey, and Schoe for RJ. I realize Scotty boy isnt that appealing, but at least the D-Backs get a veteran pitcher. They also get two good young arms and a powerful bat with a lot of potential.

I'm a bit weary of giving up Anderson enlight of his numbers this year. We'd also get to hold on to Diaz and our guys in the lower minors (except for Tracey). If we had to we could throw some other guys in, but maybe this would be enough to get it done.

jabrch
07-15-2004, 12:24 PM
What about this: LTP, Cotts, Rauch, Tracey, and Schoe for RJ. I realize Scotty boy isnt that appealing, but at least the D-Backs get a veteran pitcher. They also get two good young arms and a powerful bat with a lot of potential.

I'm a bit weary of giving up Anderson enlight of his numbers this year. We'd also get to hold on to Diaz and our guys in the lower minors (except for Tracey). If we had to we could throw some other guys in, but maybe this would be enough to get it done.
Id rather keep Schoe and move him to the pen. We could use him there - and AZ has no need for him. Why Tracey? Is he likely to have much appeal to Arizona? LTP, Cotts and Rauch all make sense...but I don't know why Tracey would. (might be my own ignorance of Tracey...fill in the details if I am missing something please)

The Tom
07-15-2004, 12:29 PM
Id rather keep Schoe and move him to the pen. We could use him there - and AZ has no need for him. Why Tracey? Is he likely to have much appeal to Arizona? LTP, Cotts and Rauch all make sense...but I don't know why Tracey would. (might be my own ignorance of Tracey...fill in the details if I am missing something please)

Tracey has been one of the most consistent pitchers for W-S this year. He is 6-3, 210 and 23 years old. He's only 5-7, but W-S has struggled a bit this year. His ERA is 3.08, he has 75-44 K:BB, he's made 17 starts and has pitched 87.2 innings while only giving up 3 homers. He's not a top-line prospect, but he's a decent guy that has put up good numbers in the lower minors. May be a young guy the D-Backs think they could use as a 4 or 5 down the road.

Basten
07-15-2004, 12:32 PM
Tracey has been one of the most consistent pitchers for W-S this year. He is 6-3, 210 and 23 years old. He's only 5-7, but W-S has struggled a bit this year. His ERA is 3.08, he has 75-44 K:BB, he's made 17 starts and has pitched 87.2 innings while only giving up 3 homers. He's not a top-line prospect, but he's a decent guy that has put up good numbers in the lower minors. May be a young guy the D-Backs think they could use as a 4 or 5 down the road.If I am Arizona GM, I ask for B-Mac....as a throw-in instead.

But not before requesting Garland, Anderson, Rauch/Diaz.

Remember, Sox have to exceed Anaheim's offer, not match it.

Personally? I am tired of hearing the word 'potential'. Nobody Sox would be giving up posessses overwhelming, can't-miss talent as far as I am concerned.

WhiteSoxFan84
07-15-2004, 12:36 PM
Magglio, Crede, Diaz, and Munoz for Johnson, Finley, and Hillenbrand?

Sounds like too much? Think about it...

Rotation:
Johnson
Buehrle
Garcia
Garland
Loaiza

Lineup:
1) L Harris - CF
2) R Uribe - 2B
3) R Konerko - 1B
4) R Thomas - DH
5) R Lee - LF
6) L Valentin - SS
7) R Hillenbrand - 3B
8) L Finley - RF
9) Alomar/Burke/Davis - C


Can you imagine The Cell with the Unit starting for the White Sox? Sell-outs every 5th day, eventually sell-outs every other day, leading to sell-outs every game in October? Pitching wins championships, this new look offense will score 5 runs+ a game. Our new look rotation will be the best, dare I say, in the majors?

Mickster
07-15-2004, 12:37 PM
Many on this board felt that KW severly overpaid when acquiring Garcia (myself not included). What do you honestly think KW will give up and what will Arizona expect (in light of the Garcia deal) in return for RJ?

People here seem to feel that we would not give up Garland, etc. and assume that AZ will take Rausch, Cotts, etc. for the deal. Highly unlikely. KW almost gave up Crede AND Olivo for Garcia, only to replace Crede with Reed at the last minute....

Kinda scary in my opinion.... :o:

Dadawg_77
07-15-2004, 12:45 PM
One can easily argue that Garcia is of more value than RJ when one factors in cost, 7mm this year and 17mm next year. It's funny though - when Dawg talks about Scott Hatteberg, it is performance relative to his cost. When we talk about Mark Kotsay - it is that he is a bargain given Oakland's limited resources. Now, when we are talking about the Sox, JR and KW should get the single most expensive player on the trade market - instead of getting Garcia and still being able to spend about 10mm more just to even out the two.

Think about it - RJ next year = 17mm
Garcia = 9, Rentiria = about 9, Manos = -5, Loaiza = -5, Clement = 8, we upgrade at 2 SP spots, SS, and still have 2mm more to spend. Where is the "limited resources" arguement DaDawg - or does that only apply to Billy Beane?
Well Oakland and Sox have different budget constraints and play in different markets, but lets over look that.Second you complete miss the point about difference makers and good players. Johnson is a difference makers, Garcia isn't. Johnson is a guy who will lead a team to a ring, Garcia will just be a role player on that team.

Also you are smoking some bad crack if you think your dream is an upgrade. First off Rentiria isn't an upgrade over Jose at SS .254/.325/.548 is better then .283/.330/.406. So for four million extra you downgrade, that is a good move. The cash flow effect for RJ would be 10 million in cash next year and 6 million in cash in two years from now and the Sox would have the ace they are missing. That is well worth it and might have money from increased ticket sales to go and sign a Clement.

Dadawg_77
07-15-2004, 12:53 PM
Magglio, Crede, Diaz, and Munoz for Johnson, Finley, and Hillenbrand?

Sounds like too much? Think about it...

Rotation:
Johnson
Buehrle
Garcia
Garland
Loaiza

Lineup:
1) L Harris - CF
2) R Uribe - 2B
3) R Konerko - 1B
4) R Thomas - DH
5) R Lee - LF
6) L Valentin - SS
7) R Hillenbrand - 3B
8) L Finley - RF
9) Alomar/Burke/Davis - C


Can you imagine The Cell with the Unit starting for the White Sox? Sell-outs every 5th day, eventually sell-outs every other day, leading to sell-outs every game in October? Pitching wins championships, this new look offense will score 5 runs+ a game. Our new look rotation will be the best, dare I say, in the majors?
Why wouldn't you keep Finely in CF and try Borchard in RF if you make that deal? Also Zona is a hitters park more so then the Cell. So Finely's production would drop, his slg on the road 470 at home 567. I don't like Hillenbrand and don't think he will continue to hit over .300 so his value would decrease too in the Cell, his slg also drops 100 points when on the road.

With Frank out for an unknown length of time, I think the Sox can't trade Mags without killing this lineup since you wouldn't get player in return who could replace Mags' production.

The Tom
07-15-2004, 12:53 PM
If I am Arizona GM, I ask for B-Mac....as a throw-in instead.

But not before requesting Garland, Anderson, Rauch/Diaz.

Remember, Sox have to exceed Anaheim's offer, not match it.

Personally? I am tired of hearing the word 'potential'. Nobody Sox would be giving up posessses overwhelming, can't-miss talent as far as I am concerned.
I'm not saying that we shouldn't give up guys like Diaz, Garland, or Anderson. Heck, even Sweeney should be in the mix. BUT all I was saying is why not put those other guys have tons of potential who are kind of dead weight in our system and see if that is enough to get it done. It's not like LTP, Rauch, Cotts, and Tracey aren't at all enticing. With the D-Backs struggles, Rauch, Cotts, and LTP are all guys that can start contributing to the big club right away. Rauch has pitched pretty well this year, and Cotts has great stuff. LTP has outstanding power. Immediate help from young guys might entice Arizona.

Flight #24
07-15-2004, 12:54 PM
Well Oakland and Sox have different budget constraints and play in different markets, but lets over look that.Second you complete miss the point about difference makers and good players. Johnson is a difference makers, Garcia isn't. Johnson is a guy who will lead a team to a ring, Garcia will just be a role player on that team.

Also you are smoking some bad crack if you think your dream is an upgrade. First off Rentiria isn't an upgrade over Jose at SS .254/.325/.548 is better then .283/.330/.406. So for four million extra you downgrade, that is a good move. The cash flow effect for RJ would be 10 million in cash next year and 6 million in cash in two years from now and the Sox would have the ace they are missing. That is well worth it and might have money from increased ticket sales to go and sign a Clement.
DD77 - here's the problem. Not only was it not known whether or not the DBacks would be willing to deal RJ (and really, it's still not clear that they'll deal him without basically taking the entire farm system of whoever they trade with), but its' also not known if RJ even has the Sox on his list of acceptable teams. From reading through the various RJ threads, the teams that he's supposedly willing to go to include NY, Boston, Anaheim, San Diego, & St Louis. So not only would KW be waiting on the DBacks to be willing to trade him, be willing to trade him at a not-unreasonable price, and KW to have the best overall offer, but he's also be relying on RJ being willing to come. Instead, he got the best pitcher available at the time (and the 2d best pitcher who will hit the market, after RJ). Next best is a guy like Kris Benson, who's a big step down from Garcia.

If the BoSox are serious about not letting him go to NY, they can get pretty good prospects for Nomar. And I'd rather have Garcia + whoever else we can get than just RJ - despite RJ being by far the biggest available difference maker.

But with all of that said, I'd be willing to deal anyone not on the ML roster, and off the roster I'd be willing to include Borchard or Rowand, Uribe or Harris, and Cotts (or Adkins/Jackson!). Put together a package like LTP+Uribe/Harris+Cotts+Rauch/Diaz and see if that gets it done.

Dadawg_77
07-15-2004, 12:55 PM
I'm not saying that we shouldn't give up guys like Diaz, Garland, or Anderson. Heck, even Sweeney should be in the mix. BUT all I was saying is why not put those other guys have tons of potential who are kind of dead weight in our system and see if that is enough to get it done. It's not like LTP, Rauch, Cotts, and Tracey aren't at all enticing. With the D-Backs struggles, Rauch, Cotts, and LTP are all guys that can start contributing to the big club right away. Rauch has pitched pretty well this year, and Cotts has great stuff. LTP has outstanding power. Immediate help from young guys might entice Arizona.
You know if Rauch is traded for Johnson, I think that would be the record for the tallest two player trade.

Tekijawa
07-15-2004, 12:55 PM
[QUOTE=Basten]If I am Arizona GM, I ask for B-Mac....as a throw-in instead.
[QUOTE]

Personally I don't find Bernie Mac funny to begin with, so if that's all it takes to get the Big Unit here then I think Chicago would be better for it!

Basten
07-15-2004, 12:57 PM
Many on this board felt that KW severly overpaid when acquiring Garcia (myself not included). What do you honestly think KW will give up and what will Arizona expect (in light of the Garcia deal) in return for RJ?

People here seem to feel that we would not give up Garland, etc. and assume that AZ will take Rausch, Cotts, etc. for the deal. Highly unlikely. KW almost gave up Crede AND Olivo for Garcia, only to replace Crede with Reed at the last minute....

Don't mean for it to be taken the wrong way, but.......Who gives a flying **** what people HERE think?! If KW does, then he should be fired.

Many don't even know that Olivo couldn't call a game, couldn't throw the ball to the intended target half the time and was even worse against RHP in 2004 than he was last year! Pedro? Shilling? Wakefield? Brown? Mussina? Contreras? Vasquez? Harden? Hudson? Escobar? Lackey? Colon? All right-handers.....and those teams will not be running much in the playoffs anyway, so Miguel's overrated arm won't come into play that much. He is fast? Yeah, he also runs the team into outs with the best of them. Talented guy, but a part-time player who may, in fact, never put it all together. And I was actually one of his biggest fans, mind you.

Reed? You have to literally TRY not to have at least 450 Slugging % in that Charlotte bandbox. And yet, he managed that particular feat.....Yeah, he is polished....but let's not pretend we gave up a young Alex Rodriguez here. Who knows how that wrist will heal. Not me. Even if he puts up solid numbers in the bigs some day.....a position player who MAY be good some day VS. a starting pitcher with #1's stuff. Did I get that right?

Yes, Sox gave up good talent in return...but guess what? That's what it takes -- or did you expect KW to fleece Bavasi, Guerrier-for-Marte-style?

And giving up Anderson, Diaz, Garland? Where do I sign?

billnahorodny
07-15-2004, 12:57 PM
All the scuttlebutt yesterday indicated that AZ was willing to part with RJ for two Cubs pitching prospects (as part of the proposed/rumored 3 way deal with Boston and the Flubbies). Now I realize that the Cubs have the greatest pitchers in the history of mankind, but why then does all of our speculation (and that's all it is) include both everyday players as well as prospects. If serious(?) consideration was being given to RJ to Bos in exchange for Nomar to cubs and Angel Guzman and Wellemeyer to AZ, why would the Sox need to give up more than some combination of Cotts/Rauch/Diaz? Are the Cubs prospects that "can't miss"...does that even exist...especially when you're talking about pitchers

The Tom
07-15-2004, 12:58 PM
You know if Rauch is traded for Johnson, I think that would be the record for the tallest two player trade.
Good point

jabrch
07-15-2004, 12:58 PM
Well Oakland and Sox have different budget constraints and play in different markets, but lets over look that.Second you complete miss the point about difference makers and good players. Johnson is a difference makers, Garcia isn't. Johnson is a guy who will lead a team to a ring, Garcia will just be a role player on that team.

Also you are smoking some bad crack if you think your dream is an upgrade. First off Rentiria isn't an upgrade over Jose at SS .254/.325/.548 is better then .283/.330/.406. So for four million extra you downgrade, that is a good move. The cash flow effect for RJ would be 10 million in cash next year and 6 million in cash in two years from now and the Sox would have the ace they are missing. That is well worth it and might have money from increased ticket sales to go and sign a Clement.
First, Oakland and the Sox have very similar budget constraints.

Johnson, if healthy, is a stud - but at this point, do you not discount him one bit due to age, recent injuries and cortison dependence?

Third, I refuse to even argue with you about Garcia since you seem to be so closed minded you don't even want to talk about it. Calling him a role player is just plain old silly.

You think Rentiria is not an upgrade over Valentin? If that's how you view things - this is gonna be a futile arguement.

Fifth, what extra ticket sales revenue will we need to jump enough to sign a guy like Clement? A ton... that's a reach in any terms

So your fantasy world has us somehow getting Randy Johnson AND CLEMENT while keeping Valentin and the rest of the core players we currently have? and you tell me I am missing the point?

I'm really glad I only read 1 of every 10 of your posts. You are so closed minded and unwilling to hear other sides of arguements.

Dadawg_77
07-15-2004, 12:58 PM
Yes, Sox gave up good talent in return...but guess what? That's what it takes -- or did you expect KW to fleece Bavasi, Guerrier-for-Marte-style?

And giving up Anderson, Diaz, Garland? Where do I sign?
Well it is Bavasi so yea.

Mickster
07-15-2004, 12:59 PM
[QUOTE=Basten]If I am Arizona GM, I ask for B-Mac....as a throw-in instead.
[QUOTE]

Personally I don't find Bernie Mac funny to begin with, so if that's all it takes to get the Big Unit here then I think Chicago would be better for it!
:cue snare drum/:

Thank you folks. Tekijawa will be here all week. Try the fish! :D:

Lip Man 1
07-15-2004, 01:01 PM
Jabrch:

Please correct me if I'm wrong (and I know you will...) can can you give me one example of a player actually accepting Uncle Jerry's generous offer to defer salary?

I don't know of any.

Which begs the question why will players take deferred offers from Arizona, the Yankees and Atlanta but not from the Sox?

Hmmm....could it be the players know those clubs without question and without any hesitation, will take the savings from the deferred money (in the here and now) and immediately use it to try to get other good players thereby increasing the chances of winning?

Without being sarcastic I'd figure there is reasonable doubt among players and their agents about the Sox doing the same thing. Ownership's 'history' of not being friendly towards the players may have a little to do this this.

Lip

OzzieBall2004
07-15-2004, 01:01 PM
Two quick things....

1) RJ gets a million a year for personal services?? Seems pretty steep for a guy who looks like he cuts his own hair. Ive seen homeless people with tidier appearances than him.

2) While the BoSox and Yanks may not have the prospects to get RJ straight up, don't forget about 3way trades, and acquirring prospects that way. The yanks for one have a surplus of starting pitcher, and if they were bringing in RJ, they could deal the inconsistent Contreras to a contender for prospects, therby adding the players neccesary to pull off the deal. You gotta remember we're dealing with two franchises that want to win at all costs, albeit one is better at winning than the other. However, nothing would suprise me as this deal unfolds more than the White Sox getting him.

Dadawg_77
07-15-2004, 01:03 PM
First, Oakland and the Sox have very similar budget constraints.

Johnson, if healthy, is a stud - but at this point, do you not discount him one bit due to age, recent injuries and cortison dependence?

Third, I refuse to even argue with you about Garcia since you seem to be so closed minded you don't even want to talk about it. Calling him a role player is just plain old silly.

You think Rentiria is not an upgrade over Valentin? If that's how you view things - this is gonna be a futile arguement.

Fifth, what extra ticket sales revenue will we need to jump enough to sign a guy like Clement? A ton... that's a reach in any terms

So your fantasy world has us somehow getting Randy Johnson AND CLEMENT while keeping Valentin and the rest of the core players we currently have? and you tell me I am missing the point?

I'm really glad I only read 1 of every 10 of your posts. You are so closed minded and unwilling to hear other sides of arguements.
I hear your arguments just to me they are dead wrong. I think Garcia is a three type of pitcher and you have him pegged as an ace. It isn't closed mindedness, just I took your and other argument evaluated them and decided I believe you are mistaken. Close mindedness is not to consider the arguments at all.

The extra ticket sales comment was in reference to say playoff games and World Series title would bring to the Sox.

jabrch
07-15-2004, 01:03 PM
Don't mean for it to be taken the wrong way, but.......Who gives a flying **** what people HERE think?! If KW does, then he should be fired.

Many don't even know that Olivo couldn't call a game, couldn't throw the ball to the intended target half the time and was even worse against RHP in 2004 than he was last year! Pedro? Shilling? Wakefield? Brown? Mussina? Contreras? Vasquez? Harden? Hudson? Escobar? Lackey? All right-handers.....and those teams will not be running much in the playoffs anyway, so Miguel's overrated arm won't come into play that much. He is fast? Yeah, he also runs the team into outs with the best of them. Talented guy, but a part-time play who may, in fact, never put it all together.

Reed? You have to literally TRY not to have at least 450 Slugging % in that Charlotte bandbox. And yet, he managed that particular feat.....Yeah, he is polished....but let's not pretend we gave up a young Alex Rodriguez here. Who knows how that wrist will heal. Even if he puts up solid numbers in the bigs some day.....a position player who MAY be good some day VS. a starting pitcher with #1's stuff. '

Yes, Sox gave up good talent in return...but guess what? That's what it takes -- or did you expect KW to fleece Bavasi, Guerrier-for-Marte-style?

And giving up Anderson, Diaz, Garland? Where do I sign?

I agree with you...but there are those who dont. They will say Olivo is a 5 tool future all-star catcher and that Reed is a mlb-ready stud who is going to be TonyGwynn-like.

Basten
07-15-2004, 01:04 PM
. If serious(?) consideration was being given to RJ to Bos in exchange for Nomar to cubs and Angel Guzman and Wellemeyer to AZ, why would the Sox need to give up more than some combination of Cotts/Rauch/Diaz? Are the Cubs prospects that "can't miss"...does that even exist...especially when you're talking about pitchersFirst of all, who knows if Arizona even considered the (IMO BS) offer that was bandied about in the news yesterday.

Also, White Sox are White Sox are White Sox. Randy Johnson would probably not come here if it can be avoided. That said, he also indicated he is willing to wave his no-trade clause if Arizona really wants him to go and only if he likes what they'd be getting in return. Translation: Sox overpay/outbid other teams, Arizona has a serious talk with RJ, he thinks about it, then realizes that Chicago may not be such a bad fit for him afterall and reluctantly agrees to be traded.

Yes, OUR offer has to be better than Boston's or Anaheim's by a solid margin for it to happen.

And no offense to Scott Schoenweiss or Lamura, but they ain't cutting it.

Dadawg_77
07-15-2004, 01:05 PM
Two quick things....

1) RJ gets a million a year for personal services?? Seems pretty steep for a guy who looks like he cuts his own hair. Ive seen homeless people with tidier appearances than him.

2) While the BoSox and Yanks may not have the prospects to get RJ straight up, don't forget about 3way trades, and acquirring prospects that way. The yanks for one have a surplus of starting pitcher, and if they were bringing in RJ, they could deal the inconsistent Contreras to a contender for prospects, therby adding the players neccesary to pull off the deal. You gotta remember we're dealing with two franchises that want to win at all costs, albeit one is better at winning than the other. However, nothing would suprise me as this deal unfolds more than the White Sox getting him.
The personal services are probally marketing efforts for the team. The DBacks have a gold outing, Randy shows up. They have a bowling tournament, he is there and so forth.

Dadawg_77
07-15-2004, 01:06 PM
Jabrch:

Please correct me if I'm wrong (and I know you will...) can can you give me one example of a player actually accepting Uncle Jerry's generous offer to defer salary?

I don't know of any.

Which begs the question why will players take deferred offers from Arizona, the Yankees and Atlanta but not from the Sox?

Hmmm....could it be the players know those clubs without question and without any hesitation, will take the savings from the deferred money (in the here and now) and immediately use it to try to get other good players thereby increasing the chances of winning?

Without being sarcastic I'd figure there is reasonable doubt among players and their agents about the Sox doing the same thing. Ownership's 'history' of not being friendly towards the players may have a little to do this this.

Lip
Well we have not seen any of the deferred money terms the Sox have offered so it is hard to judge what the real worth of a deal is.

The Tom
07-15-2004, 01:08 PM
First of all, who knows if Arizona even considered the (IMO BS) offer that was bandied about in the news yesterday.

Also, White Sox are White Sox are White Sox. Randy Johnson would probably not come here if it can be avoided. That said, he also indicated he is willing to wave his no-trade clause if Arizona really wants him to go and only if he likes what they'd be getting in return. Translation: Sox overpay/outbid other teams, Arizona has a serious talk with RJ, he thinks about it, then realizes that Chicago may not be such a bad fit for him afterall and reluctantly agrees to be traded.

Yes, OUR offer has to be better than Boston's or Anaheim's by a solid margin for it to happen.

And no offense to Scott Schoenweiss or Lamura, but they ain't cutting it.

Okay, what about this: Rauch, Diaz, Cotts, Munoz, LTP, and Nanita

Flight #24
07-15-2004, 01:10 PM
Jabrch:

Please correct me if I'm wrong (and I know you will...) can can you give me one example of a player actually accepting Uncle Jerry's generous offer to defer salary?

I don't know of any.

Which begs the question why will players take deferred offers from Arizona, the Yankees and Atlanta but not from the Sox?

Hmmm....could it be the players know those clubs without question and without any hesitation, will take the savings from the deferred money (in the here and now) and immediately use it to try to get other good players thereby increasing the chances of winning?

Without being sarcastic I'd figure there is reasonable doubt among players and their agents about the Sox doing the same thing. Ownership's 'history' of not being friendly towards the players may have a little to do this this.

Lip
Lip - IIRC, there haven't been that many times that JR has tried this - ARod, Colon being the 2 I can remember. In both cases, the players had other, much larger (ridiculously larger IMO) offers that made the decision easy. Without passing judgement on the Sox historical budget/payroll, we simply haven't been in the market for many bigname FAs that require the large contracts and therefore the deferrals to make it work for the team.

Guys like Alvarez, Fernandez, McDowell don't count because the issue there was total $$ and/or contract length. Not deferrals. Can you think of any examples where the Sox were in the ballpark financially but the player went elsewhere and took a deferral he wouldn't have taken from the Sox?

WhteSox725
07-15-2004, 01:11 PM
Dumb question....who is LTP?

Mickster
07-15-2004, 01:12 PM
Can you think of any examples where the Sox were in the ballpark financially but the player went elsewhere and took a deferral he wouldn't have taken from the Sox?
We'll see if Maggs falls into that catagory at the end of the year...

jabrch
07-15-2004, 01:12 PM
I can't think of any Lip. Some have taken backloaded deals (Ordonez, Thomas, etc.) But the issue isn't really the deferred money there, is it? The team will spend what it will spend regardless. If they pay all the money over even payments of the life of the deal, it is just that much less that they will spend during the time of that contract.

If you are asking me why we don't have a payroll like the Yanks do, or the Braves/D-Backs did, then the answer is simple - our revenue streams don't matchup well with theirs, and our ownership is unwilling to spend into a deficit which would then later require cutting costs, dumping players and being strapped with burdensome contracts.

If players want to go somewhere where they have the best chance of winning, then the Sox aren't that place. That's just the cold hard facts. It has nothing to do with KW. It has little even to do with JR. It has everything to do with matching revenue streams to expenses. The only exception is if a team is owned by someone willing to forgo profit, or even to absorb losses, for the sake of winning. Owners like that are few and far between. And that attitude doesn't last long. Look at AZ and ATL as examples. When Turner sold out, the Braves new ownership started cutting payroll, immediately. Look at the D-Back. Colangelo has cut payroll significantly - and is doing it again. But if Magglio choses to not defer a small portion of his salary out a year or two, and take an option on the 5th year, do you really blame JR/KW? Do you really think that they haven't tried their hardest within the economic constraints that they are under? (obligation to provide a set ROE to the shareholders)

And what does the phrase "friendly towards players" really mean? I'm not sure exactly what you were getting at there.


Jabrch:

Please correct me if I'm wrong (and I know you will...) can can you give me one example of a player actually accepting Uncle Jerry's generous offer to defer salary?

I don't know of any.

Which begs the question why will players take deferred offers from Arizona, the Yankees and Atlanta but not from the Sox?

Hmmm....could it be the players know those clubs without question and without any hesitation, will take the savings from the deferred money (in the here and now) and immediately use it to try to get other good players thereby increasing the chances of winning?

Without being sarcastic I'd figure there is reasonable doubt among players and their agents about the Sox doing the same thing. Ownership's 'history' of not being friendly towards the players may have a little to do this this.

Lip

Mickster
07-15-2004, 01:13 PM
Dumb question....who is LTP?:LTP
LIGHT TOWER POWER!

Johnny Mostil
07-15-2004, 01:13 PM
Dumb question....who is LTP?
I'm even dumber, so thanks for asking . . .

Basten
07-15-2004, 01:31 PM
First, Oakland and the Sox have very similar budget constraints.

Johnson, if healthy, is a stud - but at this point, do you not discount him one bit due to age, recent injuries and cortison dependence?

Third, I refuse to even argue with you about Garcia since you seem to be so closed minded you don't even want to talk about it. Calling him a role player is just plain old silly.

You think Rentiria is not an upgrade over Valentin? If that's how you view things - this is gonna be a futile arguement.

Fifth, what extra ticket sales revenue will we need to jump enough to sign a guy like Clement? A ton... that's a reach in any terms

So your fantasy world has us somehow getting Randy Johnson AND CLEMENT while keeping Valentin and the rest of the core players we currently have? and you tell me I am missing the point?

I'm really glad I only read 1 of every 10 of your posts. You are so closed minded and unwilling to hear other sides of arguements.No they don't. Sox HAVE the potential of drawing 2.5-2.7 fans if they do some exciting-ass things in the next few years in a renovated park, with the cable deal kicking in....while Cubs flounder and casual baseball fans have no chhoice but to flock to the South Side for a little while. If cards (no pun intended) fall just right, I could definately envision a 75+ Mill payroll next year.

Where do you get "cortisone dependence"? Huh?

I think you're understimating Randy Johnson's value to a franchise. Attendance, concessions, merchandise, ratings, media attention )(local and national) are all positively affected. Especially when you're the Sox and you're desperately trying to re-build the old fanbase as well as lure a bunch of bandwagoners and casual fans. Then you got what he brings in the playoffs.... Very hard to put a $ value on it, but as Arizona accountants can attest, it's pretty significant.

I agree -- Freddy Garcia may not be a classic #1, but if you put him in the 2 or 3 spot (depending how good Buerhle is in 2nd half), he could do some AWESOME things for you.

Similar to Orlando Cabrera, Renteria's power surge last year was a fluke. You should have known that when he had no homers in 2004 Spring Training, and even despite recent hot streak, his Slug. is barely touching .400. He is also never been big on walks. As he ages and puts on muscle/becomes pull-conscious, he won't be stealing bases much and his already ordinary defensive range will shrink. Sure, he has very good hands that won him a Gold Glove but when he is demanding, say, 40+ Mill over 4 years come free agency season after this year, his sure-handedness, good-but-no-longer-great-speed and a .285 BA will not be enough............Valentin will likely be making 3-4 Mill over 1 year in 2005, a better bargain all things considered.

Randy Johnson will be owed 5 Mill from now until the end of this year. Then 10.5 next year. The rest is deferred. I have no patience with those who wish to pretend that he is making 17 Mill in 2005 because that's simply not true. The deferred moneys may end up being a burden down the line, but there is a very good chance, they will not. That's the RISK this frachise HAS to assume after 86 years of crapola. Plain and simple.

Basten
07-15-2004, 01:36 PM
I agree with you...but there are those who dont. They will say Olivo is a 5 tool future all-star catcher and that Reed is a mlb-ready stud who is going to be TonyGwynn-like.
And if that happens, good for Miguel and Jeremy.

As long as Garcia does what he is asked, well....it works out for both teams.

What people here have to realize is that we have to ROOT for both Olivo and Reed to be as successful as possible. That would bode well for the future where other teams' GMs will respect Sox' talent-evaluating, talent-developing ability and will be willing to deal with us rather with another organization that overrates their prospects and doesn't deal honestly..

Basten
07-15-2004, 01:39 PM
Okay, what about this: Rauch, Diaz, Cotts, Munoz, LTP, and Nanita
Take Cotts out of the equation, add a lower level prospect (Rogo?) and it's a start.

Basten
07-15-2004, 01:42 PM
I can't think of any Lip. Some have taken backloaded deals (Ordonez, Thomas, etc.) But the issue isn't really the deferred money there, is it? The team will spend what it will spend regardless. If they pay all the money over even payments of the life of the deal, it is just that much less that they will spend during the time of that contract.

If you are asking me why we don't have a payroll like the Yanks do, or the Braves/D-Backs did, then the answer is simple - our revenue streams don't matchup well with theirs, and our ownership is unwilling to spend into a deficit which would then later require cutting costs, dumping players and being strapped with burdensome contracts.

If players want to go somewhere where they have the best chance of winning, then the Sox aren't that place. That's just the cold hard facts. It has nothing to do with KW. It has little even to do with JR. It has everything to do with matching revenue streams to expenses. The only exception is if a team is owned by someone willing to forgo profit, or even to absorb losses, for the sake of winning. Owners like that are few and far between. And that attitude doesn't last long. Look at AZ and ATL as examples. When Turner sold out, the Braves new ownership started cutting payroll, immediately. Look at the D-Back. Colangelo has cut payroll significantly - and is doing it again. But if Magglio choses to not defer a small portion of his salary out a year or two, and take an option on the 5th year, do you really blame JR/KW? Do you really think that they haven't tried their hardest within the economic constraints that they are under? (obligation to provide a set ROE to the shareholders)

And what does the phrase "friendly towards players" really mean? I'm not sure exactly what you were getting at there.Griffey's contract is heavily deferred - and he signed it at the height of his productivity.

Thomas made 10 Mill per from 1998 through 2002, with at least 3.5 Mill of it being deferred IIRC. I could be wrong here, though.

mantis1212
07-15-2004, 01:47 PM
Jabrch:

Please correct me if I'm wrong (and I know you will...) can can you give me one example of a player actually accepting Uncle Jerry's generous offer to defer salary?

I don't know of any.

Which begs the question why will players take deferred offers from Arizona, the Yankees and Atlanta but not from the Sox?

Hmmm....could it be the players know those clubs without question and without any hesitation, will take the savings from the deferred money (in the here and now) and immediately use it to try to get other good players thereby increasing the chances of winning?

Without being sarcastic I'd figure there is reasonable doubt among players and their agents about the Sox doing the same thing. Ownership's 'history' of not being friendly towards the players may have a little to do this this.

Lip
I thought I heard Frank Thomas' original long term deal signed around 94 or 95 had a ton of deferred money involved. Nevertheless, this contract actually supports your point about ownership's history with Frank's infamous "diminished skills" clause that Sox management exercised.

Dadawg_77
07-15-2004, 01:52 PM
:tomatoaward 100

Lip Man 1
07-15-2004, 01:55 PM
Jabrch:

'Friendly towards players' means working with the players association to try to reach reasonable solutions to benefit the sport as a whole. Uncle Jerry certainly is not the only person guilty of extremes in this regard, on BOTH sides.

However I'm sure it's not helping the Sox in getting players and agents to take deferred money or incentive based deals because of his reputation. A reputation that has been strongly opposed to any concessions to the MLBPA at anytime over the past twenty some years.

I believe that the simple fact is that many players and more importantly their agents DO NOT TRUST Uncle Jerry and that poisons any efforts the Sox make to try to get players to agree to those concessions. In short the Sox have to 'pay through the nose' to get players because of that attitude.

Again I don't expect that the Sox should have a Yankee payroll but in my opinion, they damn well could have a 90 million dollar one. Many other smaller teams do.

But I appreciate your honesty in admitting that the Sox have never had a player accept deferred money from this ownership. Since some believe that it is becomming common now in baseball, then my question of 'why' players won't take it from the Sox is still valid. That means you have to start trying to find answers and in my opinion the reason always comes back to the owner.

Lip

Lip Man 1
07-15-2004, 01:58 PM
Basten:

When did the 'diminished skills' contract begin? and could that have had something to do with Thomas taking deferred money (if he did?).

Uncle Jerry seemed to have the gun loaded at Frank and it wouldn't surprise me if the situation was along the lines of 'you BETTER defer this money...or you'll be on the street.' Perhaps Thomas had zero leverage unlike Colon, Rodriguez and Magglio.

Just curious.

Lip

samram
07-15-2004, 02:06 PM
Basten:

When did the 'diminished skills' contract begin? and could that have had something to do with Thomas taking deferred money (if he did?).

Uncle Jerry seemed to have the gun loaded at Frank and it wouldn't surprise me if the situation was along the lines of 'you BETTER defer this money...or you'll be on the street.' Perhaps Thomas had zero leverage unlike Colon, Rodriguez and Magglio.

Just curious.

Lip
Frank Thomas at the time of the contract was not going to be on the street. He was perhaps the best hitter in the game.

IronFisk
07-15-2004, 02:07 PM
What intrigues me the most is KW's "1917" fixation - meaning he'd very likely give up our farm for RJ - and a couple of starters (Crede, Garland, etc.) to boot. He always seems to give up too much as it is.

Wealz
07-15-2004, 02:14 PM
Again I don't expect that the Sox should have a Yankee payroll but in my opinion, they damn well could have a 90 million dollar one. Many other smaller teams do.
That's roughly an increase of over 40% from where they are right now. What are you basing this, forgive me, ridiculous assertion on?

Flight #24
07-15-2004, 02:20 PM
Since some believe that it is becomming common now in baseball, then my question of 'why' players won't take it from the Sox is still valid. That means you have to start trying to find answers and in my opinion the reason always comes back to the owner.

Lip
Lip - the answer to that (I believe) is that the discussions have never come down to the deferred money due to either:
a) the Sox not pursuing players of the magnitude that would require deferrals
or
b) the players the Sox DID pursue having significantly greater financial offers, thereby making the Sox offer moot regardless of potential deferrals. (This would include ARod & Colon)

It does not mean that players who would be willing to accept deferrals elsewhere are unwilling to accept it from JR.

I'll ask again, because I'm honeslty interested if anyone can think of an example: What players have the Sox gone after who haven't taken deferrals from them but have from other teams?

jabrch
07-15-2004, 02:24 PM
My thoughts lip - its not the owner - as much as the environment.

I don't blame JR for this team not winning. The baseball economy has made winning possible in two ways. First, Yankee-esque spending can win you a championship. And second, development which requires misery, failure and disasters to be drafting high enough to get top notch talent to develop. Look at the Marlins - who finished over .500 only in 2 seasons in their history (won wild card and WS in those two years) but used those bad years to develop enough cheap players that they then could add a FA or two (Pudge, Urbina, etc.) to win. Imagine if we finished 4th and 5th in our division for 4 - 5 years in a row? I can't imagine it. People would be going nuts. That's the baseball economy/environment we are in. I don't see how that is JR's fault. Short of managing his business in an unprofitable manner, which his partners are not interested in, I don't see what he could do. If he stopped offering deferred money, he'd be offering lower total dollar amounts. That would hurt more than it would help - right?




Jabrch:

'Friendly towards players' means working with the players association to try to reach reasonable solutions to benefit the sport as a whole. Uncle Jerry certainly is not the only person guilty of extremes in this regard, on BOTH sides.

However I'm sure it's not helping the Sox in getting players and agents to take deferred money or incentive based deals because of his reputation. A reputation that has been strongly opposed to any concessions to the MLBPA at anytime over the past twenty some years.

I believe that the simple fact is that many players and more importantly their agents DO NOT TRUST Uncle Jerry and that poisons any efforts the Sox make to try to get players to agree to those concessions. In short the Sox have to 'pay through the nose' to get players because of that attitude.

Again I don't expect that the Sox should have a Yankee payroll but in my opinion, they damn well could have a 90 million dollar one. Many other smaller teams do.

But I appreciate your honesty in admitting that the Sox have never had a player accept deferred money from this ownership. Since some believe that it is becomming common now in baseball, then my question of 'why' players won't take it from the Sox is still valid. That means you have to start trying to find answers and in my opinion the reason always comes back to the owner.

Lip

Mickster
07-15-2004, 02:26 PM
Here is a link to an new article: "NY or Bust!"

LINK (http://www.aztrib.com/index.php?sty=24778)

Seem's kinda BS???

The Tom
07-15-2004, 02:28 PM
I'm not opposed to selling the farm for Johnson, Ken Williams seems to sell off way to much to get the guys he wants. It would be nice if for once we could make a blockbuster deal AND have some prospects left. Despite what anybody says, it has to be acknowledged that while KW tries to build up a winner he gives up a lot in the way of our future to do it.

Basten
07-15-2004, 02:35 PM
What intrigues me the most is KW's "1917" fixation - meaning he'd very likely give up our farm for RJ - and a couple of starters (Crede, Garland, etc.) to boot. He always seems to give up too much as it is.We should be grateful that KW is willing to do anything he can to make this loser-franchise into winner-franchise. Naturally, that includes overpaying.

It's a hard job when the owner is not willing to pick up the bill, and fans are too entitled and too moody to be relied on for high revenue year in and year out. So what's he left with? (Our overrated) farm system.

"Give up the farm"? Did I oversleep and miss Rauch, Diaz, Anderson being future Unit, Pedro and Griffey respectively?

And before we slash our wrists at the thought of losing Garland or Crede.....

Garland:

Career ERA as a starter: 4.75
Career WHIP as a starter: 1.48
Career BB/K ratio as a starter: 2.5/3.0
Career record on a good hitting team: 41-45
Status: FA after 2005.

Crede:

Career OPS: 745
Career OPS. w. RO: 770
Career Ave w. RISP: .260

Granted, Crede had 2 awesome months to end 2002 that makes his numbers look a little better. This year has a 640 OPS in 'Close and Late' situations in 42 atbats.

I'd rather both Joe and Judy stayed, but if losing one of them means you get Randy Johnson for 2 years and Arizona doesn't pillage our farm system....Then, by all means.

Mickster
07-15-2004, 02:36 PM
I'm not opposed to selling the farm for Johnson, Ken Williams seems to sell off way to much to get the guys he wants. It would be nice if for once we could make a blockbuster deal AND have some prospects left. Despite what anybody says, it has to be acknowledged that while KW tries to build up a winner he gives up a lot in the way of our future to do it.
What future? If the future is anything like the past 87 years, I want no part of it. What would it be like if the Sox win the series? Could this be the turning point in Chicago's "baseball wars"? Could the Sox actually overtake the Cubs in popularity over the next few years?

Think back to where the Bulls were prior to 1984. Even before people knew what kind of talent MJ was becoming, I recall going to the stadium, buying tickets minutes before game time and getting practically courtside seats. Look at the Bulls now. Yes they suck talent-wise, but look at how the stadium is still packed. Look at the revenues, the available payroll. Dare I say that the last 15 years in Chicago sports, the city was a Bulls town even more so than a Bears town?

The bottom line is that the city is starving for a World Series champ. If the Sox give the city what it wants before the Flubbies, who knows what the future holds....

The Tom
07-15-2004, 02:48 PM
What future? If the future is anything like the past 87 years, I want no part of it. What would it be like if the Sox win the series? Could this be the turning point in Chicago's "baseball wars"? Could the Sox actually overtake the Cubs in popularity over the next few years?

Think back to where the Bulls were prior to 1984. Even before people knew what kind of talent MJ was becoming, I recall going to the stadium, buying tickets minutes before game time and getting practically courtside seats. Look at the Bulls now. Yes they suck talent-wise, but look at how the stadium is still packed. Look at the revenues, the available payroll. Dare I say that the last 15 years in Chicago sports, the city was a Bulls town even more so than a Bears town?

The bottom line is that the city is starving for a World Series champ. If the Sox give the city what it wants before the Flubbies, who knows what the future holds....
And how did the Bulls build their dynasty? I think it was with some guy named Jordan. Who if I'm not mistaken, and I'm not, was a draft pick of the Bulls. He was their future, they stuck with him, and he delivered. How have team's like the A's and the Flubs gotten where they are. Pitching from their systems. The White Sox have no such claim. You build a team from your system THEN add the free agents or trade to fill holes, not the other way aroun like the Sox have done it in the past. Can we win without the Unit this year, maybe. Can we continue to win in the future without a strong farm system, probably not. Our system is depleted and we can't afford to sell the farm for one player. We should try to get RJ without giving up all the promise in the minors we have.

Mickster
07-15-2004, 02:51 PM
And how did the Bulls build their dynasty? I think it was with some guy named Jordan. Who if I'm not mistaken, and I'm not, was a draft pick of the Bulls. He was their future, they stuck with him, and he delivered. How have team's like the A's and the Flubs gotten where they are. Pitching from their systems. The White Sox have no such claim. You build a team from your system THEN add the free agents or trade to fill holes, not the other way aroun like the Sox have done it in the past. Can we win without the Unit this year, maybe. Can we continue to win in the future without a strong farm system, probably not. Our system is depleted and we can't afford to sell the farm for one player. We should try to get RJ without giving up all the promise in the minors we have.
How do you possible explain the Yankees, then? Don't say "payroll", because we can build through trades this year, while they must settle for free agency....

Basten
07-15-2004, 02:55 PM
That's roughly an increase of over 40% from where they are right now. What are you basing this, forgive me, ridiculous assertion on?
I don't want to speak for him, and I agree in principle that 90 Mill is out of the question in the next few years.....but 75-80 Mill is not that far off if things go the way they should.

Attendance is up almost 20% - and could stretch to 30 or even 40% in the final months if Sox get Unit and have themselves a great 2nd half. Ticket prices were increased as compared to 2003, mind you, so attendance increase more favorably affects revenue.

TV ratings are also up, what 20%-30% - again, they would go further up with Randy Johnson and Freddy Garcia. Not sure about radio, though.

I don't know about merchandise sales, but I think they'll go up considerably as well - Unit's jersey alone will sell like crazy.

Of course once you get into the playoffs, that's just money gravy.....Luxury boxes alone will be bringing in a ton of dough, and while Sox are not as proficient at ripping off their own ticket holders as Cubs are when it comes to playoff seats, that's still big money right there if Sox get past the first round.

Then you got CBA-stipulated revenue sharing on top of playoff network TV sharing and then Comcast deal in 2005.

90 Mill is a pipe dream, but 75 or even 80 definately is not. Right now we're sitting pretty damn close to 70 Mill.

The Tom
07-15-2004, 02:58 PM
How do you possible explain the Yankees, then? Don't say "payroll", because we can build through trades this year, while they must settle for free agency....
Not say payroll? That's exactly how you explain it. They are the exception to the rule because they have a ginormous amount of money to spend. The Sox don't have the money to take that approach. We CAN make trades, but we have to be careful in who we give up. It's certainly reasonable to give up several top prospects for RJ, but something has to be retained and there is no need to overpay. I seem to remember a guy named Sosa that used to be in our farm system. After a few position changes, what kind of outfield would Ordonez, Lee, and Sosa have been? And what did we get in return for the long-run.

Tekijawa
07-15-2004, 02:59 PM
I can't wait until the day I open to the trib sports section and see:

:giantsnail

and then read in the AP transactions: White sox Acquire Randy Johnson LHP

Basten
07-15-2004, 03:07 PM
I don't blame JR for this team not winningThat's where we disagree to an extent.

Baseball economy/envinronment the way it's currently set-up certainly doesn't help the matters......But when you have an owner who flat-out refuses to shell out just a couple of Mill (circa May-June of 2003) on a good 5th starter in favor of clearly injured and/or incapable rookies, a folly that basically ends up costing the team at least another 3-4 "extra" losses and the division with it......in a year when the team hosts the All-Star Game and has a modest payroll of 50 Mill, no less.......Well then, ****, that owner ain't good for much, is he?

And I am not even going to go into REAL reasons why Ritchiegate and Kochgate took place.....Penny-pinching, that's all it was if you get to the bottom of it.

There are no innocent parties here. Fans should have supported this team better. JR should have spent more even if it meant loss of short-term profits in favor of long-term profits. Selig, Owners' and Player Union are all unresonable twats who have created for an environment not conducive to true competiton. A truly complex problem.

Mickster
07-15-2004, 03:11 PM
I seem to remember a guy named Sosa that used to be in our farm system. After a few position changes, what kind of outfield would Ordonez, Lee, and Sosa have been?
Well......it would be Ordonez, Lee and a wife-beating, bat-corking cheater! :cool:

Tekijawa
07-15-2004, 03:16 PM
After a few position changes, what kind of outfield would Ordonez, Lee, and Sosa have been? And what did we get in return for the long-run.
Well our Left fielder would have the best arm of the bunch... and that's not saying much!

Basten
07-15-2004, 03:21 PM
What future? If the future is anything like the past 87 years, I want no part of it. What would it be like if the Sox win the series? Could this be the turning point in Chicago's "baseball wars"? Could the Sox actually overtake the Cubs in popularity over the next few years?Competing for the WS in the next 2 years is not just an "if we succeed, we will upstage the Kubbies, that would be neat" luxury.

Given that Cubs came awfully close to winning the whole thing in 2003 AND have an even better (if banged up) team in 2004....THEY could win it all as early as THIS year.....which means Sox going for it in 2004 and 2005 becomes a matter of survival.

Gone are the days of 1990's and early 2000's when Cubs sucked and Sox could just sit back and hope the Kids develop into something.....They gotta win right now and win BIG.

Wealz
07-15-2004, 03:22 PM
90 Mill is a pipe dream, but 75 or even 80 definately is not. Right now we're sitting pretty damn close to 70 Mill.
The problem with even a $75M payroll is how long is it sustainable? I mean to increase the payoll to that level would probably mean two or three additional longterm deals.

If the Sox had a subpar year in '05 after upping the payroll attendance would suffer accordingly in '06 and they'd be stuck with those longterm deals.

Wealz
07-15-2004, 03:26 PM
Competing for the WS in the next 2 years is not just an "if we succeed, we will upstage the Kubbies, that would be neat" luxury.

Given that Cubs came awfully close to winning the whole thing in 2003 AND have an even better (if banged up) team in 2004....THEY could win it all as early as THIS year.....which means Sox going for it in 2004 and 2005 becomes a matter of survival.

Gone are the days of 1990's and early 2000's when Cubs sucked and Sox could just sit back and hope the Kids develop into something.....They gotta win right now and win BIG.
I don't know if it's a matter of survival. The Cubs had an incredible run last postseason and the Sox attendance is up 17% and their tv ratings are at a 10-year (all-time?) high.

jackbrohamer
07-15-2004, 03:28 PM
Well......it would be Ordonez, Lee and a wife-beating, bat-corking cheater! :cool:
A wife-beating, bat-corking cheater who has more strikeouts than any player in ML history except for Reggie Jackson.

Mickster
07-15-2004, 03:30 PM
A wife-beating, bat-corking cheater who has more strikeouts than any player in ML history except for Reggie Jackson.
I stand corrected. :D:

Basten
07-15-2004, 03:32 PM
The problem with even a $75M payroll is how long is it sustainable?
As long as JR and Sox fans remain loyal and reasonable. Months, years, decades. It could go either way.

As long as attendance comes close to 2.5 mark and people are consumming, buying merchandise, tuning into their TV's and radios.....as long as league revenue sharing, National TV sharing, luxury boxes and Comcast are around......Sox will be able to spend like a BIG-market franchise provided greater fan interest is there.

Hopefully Cubs fail so miserable, that there will be additional influx of Cubbie fans and Casual fans as well. Both are welcome as long as their dollars help make White Sox better.

If recent trends continue, both JR and Sox fans will have no more excuses not to spend/not to attend.

IMO getting Garcia was the first step. Getting Randy Johnson would be a LEAP.

Risks are involved for sure.....but there is this mysterious '86' figure that always pops in my head whenever I get overly concerned with downsides and such. :D:

Basten
07-15-2004, 03:47 PM
.Can we win without the Unit this year, maybe. Can we continue to win in the future without a strong farm system, probably not. Our system is depleted and we can't afford to sell the farm for one player. We should try to get RJ without giving up all the promise in the minors we have.Can Sox win without Unit? Anything is possible, but I would say no. Especially if one of NY/Boston/Anaheim gets him.

But getting Unit is almost as much about regular season as it is about playoffs when it comes to our wonderful franchise.

Once again.....Our farm system will NOT be depleted if we lose a couple of prospects. Not even close. I am sorry, but Rauch and Diaz are nothing special - something that's only reinforced by their ML stint this year. Anderson is just a position player who he'll be lucky to outproduce Aaron Rowand the way Aaron is swinging this year.

How in all that's holy are you planning to get Randy Johnson without giving up talented prospects? Randy Johnson is the hottest deadline commodity in baseball, and after the way 41yo Roger Clemens has re-discovered himself with change of scenery and basically saved the Astros season (for now), teams will be more willing to take a gamble on an aging superstar.

Sox are gonna have to seriously outbid everybody else. And I am all for it since we need him more than any other team.

Tekijawa
07-15-2004, 03:51 PM
This article from ESPN: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1840380

Leads me to believe that since Arizon has contacted these 5 teams that Randy must have some type of interest in playing here. Now if it said that these 5 teams contacted the Diamondbacks then that would be a different story... so here's hoping!

JDP
07-15-2004, 03:51 PM
For all the supporters of "we cannot sell the farm" theory:

The Sox have middle of the road prospects because they draft in the middle of the rounds each and every year. The hope and odds of success for these prospects is far and few between, as compared to drafting, say, in the top 10 of the draft. If the Sox "sell the farm" so-to-speak to acquire veterans such as Garcia (done), RJ or other names thrown around to compete now, they will make the strongest push for a WS title in many, many years. If they win it -- amazing -- and either continue to play for the 'now' and trade prospects for veterans (or sign veteran FAs) and make the yearly WS push; if not, so what, we start from scratch, weather a few years of horrid records and accordingly, draft the better prospects to build up again.

Now, if they hadn't (or don't) trade a bunch of the prospects and wither the system down, they will finish near .500 like they do every year, have the annual slim chance of making the playoffs -- and draft yet again in the middle of the rounds come June. They'd continue this cycle year in and year out like we are seeing. Hasn't everyone pulled out enough hair at this current trend?

Something must be changed. Hanging around .500 each and every year, talking about making the playoffs, then comes September and the Sox are "magically" not going to make the playoffs -- has got to stop.

Paulwny
07-15-2004, 03:53 PM
How in all that's holy are you planning to get Randy Johnson without giving up talented prospects? Randy Johnson is the hottest commodity in baseball, and after the way 41yo Roger Clemens has re-discovered himself with change of scenery, people will be more willing to take a risk on an aging superstar.
Agree, if by some miracle RJ OK's the sox he won't come cheap. #1 pitchers never do.

MushMouth
07-15-2004, 03:57 PM
Something must be changed. Hanging around .500 each and every year, talking about making the playoffs, then comes September and the Sox are "magically" not going to make the playoffs -- has got to stop.
Amen

Isn't it time to take a chance and really go for it? We're talking about winning a title, beating the likes of Anaheim, New York and Boston in the playoffs. We can't do that constantly holding onto our Miguel Olivo's because he may some day throw runners out and Reed's because he may someday become a Major League starter. If the opportunity exists, take it! 1917 - 1917!!!!!!!

Basten
07-15-2004, 04:03 PM
Now, if they hadn't (or don't) trade a bunch of the prospects and wither the system down, they will finish near .500 like they do every year, have the annual slim chance of making the playoffs -- and draft yet again in the middle of the rounds come June. They'd continue this cycle year in and year out like we are seeing. .
.....until the dynasty Tribune Co. is currently trying their best to build nets them a World Series Title or two, and Sox lose the city of Chicago for a long, long time.

But hey, who cares about all that when you got Garland and Brian Anderson. :bandance:

JDP
07-15-2004, 04:07 PM
.....until the dynasty Tribune Co. is currently trying their best to build nets them a World Series Title or two, and Sox lose the city of Chicago for a long, long time.

But hey, who cares about all that when you got Garland and Brian Anderson. :bandance:

I hear ya Basten ... the Sox need to either win the whole damn thing now and continue to make trades / sign FAs to do so, or dwell towards the bottom of the division to really get the good prospects. I'd take a WS title now and in the "immediate" future in exchange for a few years of cellar-dwelling, rebuilding back to the top, years.

OzzieBall2004
07-15-2004, 04:10 PM
The personal services are probally marketing efforts for the team. The DBacks have a gold outing, Randy shows up. They have a bowling tournament, he is there and so forth.

Thanks for the lesson boss, did it ever occur to you that I was "probally" being facetious ?

Dadawg_77
07-15-2004, 04:17 PM
Thanks for the lesson boss, did it ever occur to you that I was "probally" being facetious ?
Well it wasn't in teal so I assumed no.

kjhanson
07-15-2004, 04:51 PM
http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/MLB_SC-RUMOR

"The newspaper cites a source who "speaks often" with Johnson as saying the left-handed pitcher's comments about willing to consider a trade to a legitimate potential World Series as meaning the Yankees (http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/teams/page/NYY) as the only team he would consider."

OzzieBall2004
07-15-2004, 05:43 PM
According to ESPN programming (PTI and ESPNews' Hotlist), Randy Johnson has submitted a list of 5 teams to Arizona management. They teams include Boston, the Yankees, the Cubs, the Angels, and our beloved White Sox.
Now that we know Randy will come here (take that, naysayers.....), it's just a matter of putting the right deal together. Go ahead and overpay, see if I care......I dont miss Miggy and Reed (Didnt know Reed enough to miss him), and I wont miss Borchard/Sweeney/Diaz/Rauch/Andersen or any other prospects we give up. Hell I'll load 'em all in a bus and drive them to AZ myself.

Also, it has been reported that the Angels wont deal any of their future and wont take on the added payroll, and the D-Backs wont deal to any NL clubs (see ya Flubbies), So this potentially creates a 3 team race, and we have the most prospects...Stay tuned

South Side
07-15-2004, 05:46 PM
According to ESPN programming (PTI and ESPNews' Hotlist), Randy Johnson has submitted a list of 5 teams to Arizona management. They teams include Boston, the Yankees, the Cubs, the Angels, and our beloved White Sox.
Now that we know Randy will come here (take that, naysayers.....), it's just a matter of putting the right deal together. Go ahead and overpay, see if I care......I dont miss Miggy and Reed (Didnt know Reed enough to miss him), and I wont miss Borchard/Sweeney/Diaz/Rauch/Andersen or any other prospects we give up. Hell I'll load 'em all in a bus and drive them to AZ myself.

Also, it has been reported that the Angels wont deal any of their future and wont take on the added payroll, and the D-Backs wont deal to any NL clubs (see ya Flubbies), So this potentially creates a 3 team race, and we have the most prospects...Stay tuned
I see this as quite a compliment. It would be nice to get him but I'm not going to hold my breath. If we don't get him I would like to see him go to Anaheim.

steff
07-15-2004, 05:47 PM
What about including Loaiza?


I don't understand the question...??

beckett21
07-15-2004, 05:52 PM
Also, it has been reported that the Angels wont deal any of their future and wont take on the added payroll, and the D-Backs wont deal to any NL clubs (see ya Flubbies), So this potentially creates a 3 team race, and we have the most prospects...Stay tuned
I heard that about the Angels, but don't forget the Cubs could turn around and flip him to Boston for Nomar. I wouldn't drop them out completely. I also believed that St. Louis was a player in this, but if that's the official list then so be it.

I still wouldn't hold my breath, but nice to see we made the cut so far. Who knows?:o:

Basten
07-15-2004, 05:52 PM
According to ESPN programming (PTI and ESPNews' Hotlist), Randy Johnson has submitted a list of 5 teams to Arizona management. They teams include Boston, the Yankees, the Cubs, the Angels, and our beloved White Sox.
Now that we know Randy will come here (take that, naysayers.....), it's just a matter of putting the right deal together. Go ahead and overpay, see if I care......I dont miss Miggy and Reed (Didnt know Reed enough to miss him), and I wont miss Borchard/Sweeney/Diaz/Rauch/Andersen or any other prospects we give up. Hell I'll load 'em all in a bus and drive them to AZ myself.

Also, it has been reported that the Angels wont deal any of their future and wont take on the added payroll, and the D-Backs wont deal to any NL clubs (see ya Flubbies), So this potentially creates a 3 team race, and we have the most prospects...Stay tuned
And to think, how much ridicule was heaped on the "dreamers" who thought this deal was possible all along.....

If Sox aren't willing to overpay, it would be criminal.

Of course it comes with the understanding that Unit (or rather his knee) passes a thorough physical -- or is he "mean" enough to stipulate that no doctor shall come within 100 paces of him? LMAO.

OzzieBall2004
07-15-2004, 06:08 PM
I'd hate to come this close and get burned....I have a feeling we will though. Georgie Boy lost to us on the Garcia deal, and I dont think he'll let the White Sox beat him to the punch twice. Although, it may be out of his hands. I just question how close we really are to landing RJ. Kind of like that report today in the Sun-Times and Trib about how Kobe was "close" to coming to the Bulls. And as we all know, close only counts in horse $hit and band parades.

owensmouth
07-15-2004, 06:12 PM
According to Peter Gammons (I heard this on ESPN radio online at 3:05 Thursday) Randy Johnson wants to go to either the Cardinals or the Yankees. 3:05 California time, aka 5:05 California time on Sports Bash.

Mickster
07-15-2004, 06:26 PM
According to Peter Gammons (I heard this on ESPN radio online at 3:05 Thursday) Randy Johnson wants to go to either the Cardinals or the Yankees. 3:05 California time, aka 5:05 California time on Sports Bash.
If Gammons says Yankees and Cardinals, then it must be Red Sox and Cubs... He's a moron.

soxwon
07-15-2004, 06:30 PM
he will be ours- kw is a genius

PorkChopExpress
07-15-2004, 06:40 PM
Has anyone considered that we might be part of a three-way trade with the Yanks, and wind up with someone like Contreras instead of RJ?

Aidan
07-15-2004, 07:00 PM
Has anyone considered that we might be part of a three-way trade with the Yanks, and wind up with someone like Contreras instead of RJ?It's possible, but does anyone really want his contract ($9 million this season and the next)? Randy Johnson makes a ton of cash ($16 million this season and the next) but he is actually worth it. Contreras is outstanding one start and brutal the next. He is like Dr. Jekyl/Mr. Hyde.

jabrch
07-15-2004, 07:05 PM
It's possible, but does anyone really want his contract ($9 million this season and the next)? Randy Johnson makes a ton of cash ($16 million this season and the next) but he is actually worth it. Contreras is outstanding one start and brutal the next. He is like Dr. Jekyl/Mr. Hyde.

He could come for free though - if the Yanks throw in cash to pay his contract. Then he might actually be worth something if it is not possible to get RJ. (no trade clause)

OzzieBall2004
07-15-2004, 07:05 PM
Has anyone considered that we might be part of a three-way trade with the Yanks, and wind up with someone like Contreras instead of RJ?

Dont think so....not when you consider that Contreras is hot and cold (with an emphasis on the cold side), and due 18.5 mil over the next 2 and a half years. Thats relatively comparable to the money any suitor will owe RJ over the next year and a half (15 mil plus deferred payments @ 6 mil per year). It wouldnt be worth adding a relatively bulky contract for a guy who has yet to prove himself in the bigs and aid the evil empire in the process. If we have a real shot at Johnson, I have no doubt in my mind that Kenny will make it happen.

The Tom
07-15-2004, 07:08 PM
I dont know if this has been posted yet, but mlb.com is saying that Angels are standing firm with both owner and GM saying they won't sell of their prospects, effectively backing them out of the deal.

OzzieBall2004
07-15-2004, 07:09 PM
He could come for free though - if the Yanks throw in cash to pay his contract. Then he might actually be worth something if it is not possible to get RJ. (no trade clause)

Where would this deal come from? Correct me if I'm wrong but you're all envisoning a 3 way deal with Us, the Yanks, and the D-Backs where we trade prospects to the Yanks for Contreras, and the Yanks trade them to AZ for Johnson. If in fact this was the case, why the hell wouldnt we just keep Johnson?

beckett21
07-15-2004, 08:06 PM
Where would this deal come from? Correct me if I'm wrong but you're all envisoning a 3 way deal with Us, the Yanks, and the D-Backs where we trade prospects to the Yanks for Contreras, and the Yanks trade them to AZ for Johnson. If in fact this was the case, why the hell wouldnt we just keep Johnson?
$$$$$$$

SoxxoS
07-15-2004, 08:14 PM
Where would this deal come from? Correct me if I'm wrong but you're all envisoning a 3 way deal with Us, the Yanks, and the D-Backs where we trade prospects to the Yanks for Contreras, and the Yanks trade them to AZ for Johnson. If in fact this was the case, why the hell wouldnt we just keep Johnson?
:reinsy

"Yes, hello. Hi. I am Jerry Reinsdorf, still the owner of the White Sox."

gogo59
07-15-2004, 09:13 PM
Stoneman on Johnson (from the 7/9 L.A. Times):

The Angels also might balk at the idea of mortgaging a good chunk of their future for a pitcher who has virtually no cartilage left in his right knee.

"My philosophy hasn't changed, and I don't see it changing," Angel General Manager Bill Stoneman said Thursday. "The strength of any organization is its scouting and player development, and I'm not going to disrupt that to jeopardize the future."


Elsewhere, Stoneman said his responsibility is not just this year, but ensuring the Angels continue to compete on a high level into the future.

I know it's not a popular question on this site, but does anyone care what the Sox look like in 2005 and thereafter? I have rooted for the Sox my whole life and plan to continue to do so for many years to come. I, for one, would not be happy to see them win their division this year, but stink for years to come because they sold off every decent prospect they had. At least with the Garcia deal, they got a relatively young pitcher in his prime, then signed him for 3 more years. Johnson, as dominating as he can be, is past his prime, is an injury risk, and will cost about 25% of the payroll for the remainder of this year and next. And I don't even want to think about what the Sox would have to give up to get him (not that there's that much left in the farm system).

I love Kenny's enthusiasm, and Stoneman is an accountant with as much personality as a piece of lumber, but I much prefer his focus on the future to Williams' win-at-all-costs-this-year-and-worry-about-the-future-later.

MarqSox
07-15-2004, 09:24 PM
I know it's not a popular question on this site, but does anyone care what the Sox look like in 2005 and thereafter? No. We've been rebuilding for 87 years. At some point you gotta say "F*** it, we're gonna go for it." If it means sucking for the next 4 years, then so be it, but I want my 86-year-old grandpa to see a White Sox championship before he dies.

Basten
07-15-2004, 09:36 PM
I know it's not a popular question on this site, but does anyone care what the Sox look like in 2005 and thereafter? I have rooted for the Sox my whole life and plan to continue to do so for many years to come. I, for one, would not be happy to see them win their division this year, but stink for years to come because they sold off every decent prospect they had. At least with the Garcia deal, they got a relatively young pitcher in his prime, then signed him for 3 more years. Johnson, as dominating as he can be, is past his prime, is an injury risk, and will cost about 25% of the payroll for the remainder of this year and next. And I don't even want to think about what the Sox would have to give up to get him (not that there's that much left in the farm system).
.Again.....

Randy Johnson will account for 5 Mill (out of nearly 70) worth of payroll this year and assuming if things go well in 2004 and payroll gets a 15-20% jump in 2005, his 10 Mill will make up about 12 to 15% of next year's payroll. The rest of the money is DEEEEEEEEEEEE-FERRED.

Sox already signed Buerhle. And Garcia. Unit is signed through 2005. That means our playoff 1-2-3 will be intact in 2005 as well.

Shingo will be back, and so will Marte and possibly Politte. Our 1-2-3 BP is back as well.

1-2 Harris and Uribe aren't going anywhere. Thomas is back. 2 of Lee/Konerko/Valentin will starting 2005 as members of White Sox well. Rowand, too. Crede. Unless he demands remain exorbitant, who knows, they may fit his Magglio-ness as well.

Koch's 6.3 is subtracted. Loaiza's 4 Mill is gone. 1 of Valentin/Konerko/Lee will leave or be traded in all likelyhood to make some payroll room. That 11-14 Mill will pay for raises. Randy Johnson's 10 Mill will pay for itself -- that's what I expect next year's payroll to go UP by, if things go remotely well, fingers crossed, knock on wood and all that.

There are details and few issues to be worked out, but the "oh no, what are we gonna doooooooo next year!" hair-tearing has GOT to stop. We'll be fine - hopefully better than fine if this team goes beyond the first round in the playoffs. Look at the BIG picture, man.

soxtalker
07-15-2004, 10:32 PM
...
I know it's not a popular question on this site, but does anyone care what the Sox look like in 2005 and thereafter? I have rooted for the Sox my whole life and plan to continue to do so for many years to come. I, for one, would not be happy to see them win their division this year, but stink for years to come because they sold off every decent prospect they had. At least with the Garcia deal, they got a relatively young pitcher in his prime, then signed him for 3 more years. Johnson, as dominating as he can be, is past his prime, is an injury risk, and will cost about 25% of the payroll for the remainder of this year and next. And I don't even want to think about what the Sox would have to give up to get him (not that there's that much left in the farm system).

I love Kenny's enthusiasm, and Stoneman is an accountant with as much personality as a piece of lumber, but I much prefer his focus on the future to Williams' win-at-all-costs-this-year-and-worry-about-the-future-later.
Yes, I agree with you. However, I'm getting the impression that it is pointless to post such objections on this board, since the vast majority of members of WSI favor aggressively trading away what little farm system we have left to improve our chances this year.

fquaye149
07-15-2004, 10:36 PM
Yes, I agree with you. However, I'm getting the impression that it is pointless to post such objections on this board, since the vast majority of members of WSI favor aggressively trading away what little farm system we have left to improve our chances this year.
now with all due respect, no one wants to see the farm system sucked dry. but if you took all the prospects who in a few years were supposed to save this team you could combine them with a quarter and get a cup of coffee.

Yes, ring, reed, francisco, etc. would be nice to have in teh minors right now, but who's to say they'd ever pan out. many sure fire stars like borchard, rauch, munoz, honel, etc. have done nothing but tread water.

i'm no expert but i think we've got a decent core of young players right now with uribe, harris, crede, lee, garcia, buehrle, garland, and cotts. We also have veterans and a gm who can make some moves. I think that we're better off making moves with the farm season than crossing our fingers and hoping prospects pan out.

of course this is very generally speaking. obviously there is such thing as overpaying. . .but my point is, in 2005 reed, ring et. al would probably not have figured largely in our team. Garcia will hopefully be a lynchpin of the squad

MikeW
07-15-2004, 10:39 PM
All I can say is that I am 49 years old and have waited a long,long time to see the Sox in a World Series. If getting Johnson costs a lot, I say go for it. I'm tired of waiting till next year. Just think of the respect this franchise will finally get if they pull in Randy Johnson.

WSox8404
07-15-2004, 11:34 PM
Get him. Get him now. Garland will not lead us to the promised land, ever. Include him in the trade if necessary.

DickAllen72
07-16-2004, 12:36 AM
Again.....

Randy Johnson will account for 5 Mill (out of nearly 70) worth of payroll this year and assuming if things go well in 2004 and payroll gets a 15-20% jump in 2005, his 10 Mill will make up about 12 to 15% of next year's payroll. The rest of the money is DEEEEEEEEEEEE-FERRED.

Sox already signed Buerhle. And Garcia. Unit is signed through 2005. That means our playoff 1-2-3 will be intact in 2005 as well.

Shingo will be back, and so will Marte and possibly Politte. Our 1-2-3 BP is back as well.

1-2 Harris and Uribe aren't going anywhere. Thomas is back. 2 of Lee/Konerko/Valentin will starting 2005 as members of White Sox well. Rowand, too. Crede. Unless he demands remain exorbitant, who knows, they may fit his Magglio-ness as well.

Koch's 6.3 is subtracted. Loaiza's 4 Mill is gone. 1 of Valentin/Konerko/Lee will leave or be traded in all likelyhood to make some payroll room. That 11-14 Mill will pay for raises. Randy Johnson's 10 Mill will pay for itself -- that's what I expect next year's payroll to go UP by, if things go remotely well, fingers crossed, knock on wood and all that.

There are details and few issues to be worked out, but the "oh no, what are we gonna doooooooo next year!" hair-tearing has GOT to stop. We'll be fine - hopefully better than fine if this team goes beyond the first round in the playoffs. Look at the BIG picture, man.


I like the way you think! :gulp:

Basten
07-16-2004, 12:41 AM
Get him. Get him now. Garland will not lead us to the promised land, ever. Include him in the trade if necessary.But isn't this just more of that Sox "luck", though?

Rauch is off to a good start in AAA. Then he gets spanked by Anaheim and his solid trade value is cut in half.

Munoz is flat-out nasty in AA. Call him up? Gives up 11 ER. Goes from "good" trade value to virtually nil in 2 weeks.

Diaz, too.

Garland needed to showcase his best stuff tonight, get his team a much needed win to stay in 1st place and let Arizona salivate over the prospect of getting him in a Unit trade. What does he do? Has a his patented meltdown in the 4th and that's all she wrote.

Can this ****ing franchise get a break? Can they go on a 10-game win streak just once and at least provide SOME incentive for Randy Johnson to come here? My God, every momentum in the last 4 years somehow came to a screeching and often comical halt; this team just can't achieve take-off velocity.

****ing losers, damn. Gotta win 2 of 3 here.

South Side
07-16-2004, 01:25 AM
All I can say is that I am 49 years old and have waited a long,long time to see the Sox in a World Series. If getting Johnson costs a lot, I say go for it. I'm tired of waiting till next year. Just think of the respect this franchise will finally get if they pull in Randy Johnson.

You better believe we would get some respect for stealing 2 great pitchers from underneath King George.

pearso66
07-16-2004, 01:25 AM
Wow with the feelings around here, you'd think we just got knocked out of the playoffs. When in fact we are still .5 games up. If we trade Garland, we are still missing a guy in the rotation. We'd be better off sending Cotts off then Garland. Yeah Garland had a bad outing today, whoop di do. Everyone has them once in a while, even Randy Johnson, GASP! When you're going to win it all, you don't trade away an important peice of the puzzle.

Kuzman
07-16-2004, 01:28 AM
i wouldnt even say he had that bad of an outing, he gave up 2 earned, a bomb, and trusted Timo, Mr. Butterfingers, and got the shaft.. He still had a good night despite the loss

pearso66
07-16-2004, 01:31 AM
All I know is he gave up 4. I didn't get to watch the game, and the only part I saw on sportsline/gameday was Maggs' homer. Lucky timing I guess.

Lip Man 1
07-16-2004, 01:35 AM
Basten:

To answer your question about 'can the Sox get a break?' when you haven't won a title since 1917 the answer is obvious.

Lip

South Side
07-16-2004, 01:42 AM
But isn't this just more of that Sox "luck", though?

Rauch is off to a good start in AAA. Then he gets spanked by Anaheim and his solid trade value is cut in half.

Munoz is flat-out nasty in AA. Call him up? Gives up 11 ER. Goes from "good" trade value to virtually nil in 2 weeks.

Diaz, too.

Garland needed to showcase his best stuff tonight, get his team a much needed win to stay in 1st place and let Arizona salivate over the prospect of getting him in a Unit trade. What does he do? Has a his patented meltdown in the 4th and that's all she wrote.

Can this ****ing franchise get a break? Can they go on a 10-game win streak just once and at least provide SOME incentive for Randy Johnson to come here? My God, every momentum in the last 4 years somehow came to a screeching and often comical halt; this team just can't achieve take-off velocity.

****ing losers, damn. Gotta win 2 of 3 here.
You're extreme over-reaction is a bit pathetic. Where's the sarcastic "Sky is Falling" bird graphic when you need it? Or the guy puking will also do.
P.S. It's a 4 game series.

Basten
07-16-2004, 02:07 AM
You're extreme over-reaction is a bit pathetic. Where's the sarcastic "Sky is Falling" bird graphic when you need it? Or the guy puking will also do.
P.S. It's a 4 game series.BS.

This team, as always, teases you with great success and then just goes into hybernation for days on end. Does almost sweeping the Yankees in NY an then barely escaping Detroit from last year ring a bell? Only our White Sox........They needed to come off the Break smoking, beat up on some A's and Rangers on the road, then flex some killer instinct muscle and take care of business against Cle and Detroit. Build a 4-5 game lead before the trade deadline, convince Big Unit to come to a 1st place team, and then head full-steam into postseason......But no, Sox have to make it difficult on themselves every step of the way.

Tonight Garland once again falls apart at the earliest sign of trouble. This is the guy nobody wants to give up for Randy Johnson? Is it twilight zone outside or something?

Our hitters once again try to selfishly PULL anbd ELEVATE an outside 95mph fastball --- and of course are badly jammed in the process. Crede and Lee stayed with the pitch and hit rockets to RF, but there wasn't enough all game of that to beat Harden. Hell, Maggio tried to leave earth on two Dotel offerings in the zone instead of lining the ball like he used to in the past down the spacious RF line and legging out a triple with 1 out and score 4-3....Stuff like that.

It's all about recognizing the old patterns, and I've seen enough of this garbage in the last 4 years. Let's go Ozzie, get through to these guys -- and stop putting Timo in the line-up since he can;t hit or field. :bandance:

jabrch
07-16-2004, 05:21 AM
Where would this deal come from? Correct me if I'm wrong but you're all envisoning a 3 way deal with Us, the Yanks, and the D-Backs where we trade prospects to the Yanks for Contreras, and the Yanks trade them to AZ for Johnson. If in fact this was the case, why the hell wouldnt we just keep Johnson?
That was going on the assumption (as we seemed to be earlier today) that RJ would only go to the Yanks. If he'd come here - then lets get him!

Aidan
07-16-2004, 08:38 AM
White Sox | Johnson Contenders - from www.KFFL.com (http://www.kffl.com/)
Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:34:08 -0700
The Providence Journal reports the Chicago White Sox are one of four teams involved in the sweepstakes for acquiring Arizona Diamondbacks P Randy Johnson.

Angels | Interest In Johnson - from www.KFFL.com (http://www.kffl.com/)
Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:33:33 -0700
The Providence Journal reports the Anaheim Angels are one of four teams involved in the sweepstakes for acquiring Arizona Diamondbacks P Randy Johnson.

Red Sox | In Johnson Sweepstakes - from www.KFFL.com (http://www.kffl.com/)
Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:31:55 -0700
The Providence Journal reports the Boston Red Sox are one of four teams involved in the sweepstakes for acquiring Arizona Diamondbacks P Randy Diamondbacks.Obviously, the fourth team interested in Randy Johnson is the Yankees. It then goes on to say this...
Angels | Big Unit Plans On Hold - from www.KFFL.com (http://www.kffl.com/)
Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:24:30 -0700
The Los Angeles Times's Ben Bolch reports Arizona Diamondbacks P Randy Johnson may pitch in Anaheim later this season, but several players told Anaheim Angels owner Arte Moreno it was not worth gutting the team's prospects for a short-term rental player.The Angels don't seem to want to trade prospects for a 2 month rental. So maybe it is only a 3 team race then: White Sox, Yankees, and Red Sox.

I really think a package of Neal Cotts, Felix Diaz, and Brian Anderson would be enough to get RJ but would he waive his no-trade clause to come here?

jabrch
07-16-2004, 09:42 AM
Basten:

To answer your question about 'can the Sox get a break?' when you haven't won a title since 1917 the answer is obvious.

Lip
Lip, Serious question (and feel free to ignore it if this is none of my business) are you as perpetually negative in person, with the rest of life, as your are on WSI about the Sox?

JDP
07-16-2004, 09:47 AM
Whatever it takes to bring a true #1 SP, possibly still baseball's best pitcher, a CY winner and barer of one WS ring wouldn't be too costly.

If it means a package involving Garland and/or Cotts, put it together already. With a rotation of Johnson/Garcia/Buehrle/Loaiza getting the bulk of the starts the rest of the way and, hopefully, in the post season, I think the variables that will equate "the future" will change with the addition of RJ and any post season success. (Variables being payroll issues, FA leaves/additions, etc.)

Either you are a fan onboard for taking the chance to win big now and face either feast or famine or you're a supporter of hanging onto mediocrity -- there really is no middle ground.

pearso66
07-16-2004, 02:08 PM
You fail to realize that trading garland leaves the same void in the 5th spot of the rotation. And if you think we can go around that, remember we play 27 games in a row without a day off. that means the 5th starter gets 5 starts, if that person loses 5, it doesnt leave much room for error from the other 4 guys. We need him as our #5. Cotts I can handle trading, but not Garland.


Oh and Garland "imploded" again, and only gave up 4 runs. 4 runs generally wins for this team. I don't know why some people are so ready to give up Garland so easy.

SoxxoS
07-16-2004, 02:42 PM
You fail to realize that trading garland leaves the same void in the 5th spot of the rotation. And if you think we can go around that, remember we play 27 games in a row without a day off. that means the 5th starter gets 5 starts, if that person loses 5, it doesnt leave much room for error from the other 4 guys. We need him as our #5. Cotts I can handle trading, but not Garland.


Oh and Garland "imploded" again, and only gave up 4 runs. 4 runs generally wins for this team. I don't know why some people are so ready to give up Garland so easy.
And you got to think he isn't going to stay a mental midget forever...when he is 33 and pitching...I guarantee he won't have an inning like this past 2nd (where he couldn't find the plate to save his life).

That will change eventually. I just hope another team doesn't reap the benefits.

Flight #24
07-16-2004, 02:46 PM
And you got to think he isn't going to stay a mental midget forever...when he is 33 and pitching...I guarantee he won't have an inning like this past 2nd (where he couldn't find the plate to save his life).

That will change eventually. I just hope another team doesn't reap the benefits.
Most if not all pitchers have similar issues at times. The top pitchers are able to minimize it and get through these without any damage. Jon's already a good pitcher, if he can overcome this, he can be great. Since everyone's expectations are that he be a #1-caliber pitcher, itseems a lot worse than it really is.

As a #3 starter, giving up 3ER in 7 is not bad at all. If he were to avoid that type of outing, he'd be a #1.

Basten
07-16-2004, 03:08 PM
You fail to realize that trading garland leaves the same void in the 5th spot of the rotation. And if you think we can go around that, remember we play 27 games in a row without a day off. that means the 5th starter gets 5 starts, if that person loses 5, it doesnt leave much room for error from the other 4 guys. We need him as our #5. Cotts I can handle trading, but not Garland.


Oh and Garland "imploded" again, and only gave up 4 runs. 4 runs generally wins for this team. I don't know why some people are so ready to give up Garland so easy.
Fine.

Who do you propose we trade for Randy Johnson, then? Tetsu Yofu, Mario Valenzula and Scott Schoenweiss? LMAO.

Let me guess, we "don't need" RJ.......

pearso66
07-16-2004, 03:10 PM
Fine.

Who do you propose we trade for Randy Johnson, then? Tetsu Yofu, Mario Valenzula and Scott Schoenweiss? LMAO.

Let me guess, we "don't need" RJ.......I'd be fine with Cotts, Rauch/Diaz, Borchard and/or Anderson/Sweeney. If we trade Garland, getting Johnson doesnt make us that much better.

Just because I don't want to trade Garland doesnt mean I dont want to give up prospects for him. Even if Johnson wins all 10 games or so he starts for us the rest of the way, I bet that is only a couple more than Garland. And I bet he doesn't win all 10. You can't trade for a guy to fill a hole, but give up someone else so you have the same hole, its pointless. And for those who want to trade Crede or Uribe too, that just creates another hole, and gives us less chance.

Basten
07-16-2004, 03:19 PM
I'd be fine with Cotts, Rauch/Diaz, Borchard and/or Anderson/Sweeney. If we trade Garland, getting Johnson doesnt make us that much better.
None of those guys are worth as much as Jon Garland if you're Arizona. This guy will love having to face inferior #8 and #9 hitters in NL. I am thinking they'll lock him up for cheap right away while his ERA and WHIP are still mediocre and he is young.

Cotts/Crede, Garland, Anderson and maybe someone like Casey Rogowski as a throw-in is more like it.

Yay or nay?

Mickster
07-16-2004, 03:21 PM
Nay as to giving them 3 off of the 25 man roster.

HUGE YAY of it includes more minor leaguers....

pearso66
07-16-2004, 03:22 PM
None of those guys are worth as much as Jon Garland if you're Arizona. This guy will love having to face inferior #8 and #9 hitters in NL. I am thinking they'll lock him up for cheap right away while his ERA and WHIP are still mediocre and he is young.

Cotts/Crede, Garland, Anderson and maybe someone like Casey Rogowski as a throw-in is more like it.

Yay or nay?
I have no problem with Cotts or anderson, as stated before, but Crede and Garland make us severly overpaying, and creates another hole without solving one either. I would say Nay

Win1ForMe
07-16-2004, 03:36 PM
Just curious, but can we include players that were drafted this year, such as Josh Fields, under the "PLAYER TO BE NAMED LATER" tag? I'm aware teams can't trade newly drafted players but thought a way around this was the PTBNL part.

Dadawg_77
07-16-2004, 04:11 PM
Just curious, but can we include players that were drafted this year, such as Josh Fields, under the "PLAYER TO BE NAMED LATER" tag? I'm aware teams can't trade newly drafted players but thought a way around this was the PTBNL part.
You have to name the PTBNL 6 months from the trade, I beieve. You need to wait one year to trade a drafted player.

jabrch
07-16-2004, 05:11 PM
he would accept a trade here. All comments reported from him seem to indicate no interest in coming here. I'll be thrilled if it happens - but as far as I am concerned, he is not available to us.

pczarapa
07-16-2004, 11:36 PM
I sure wouldn't want to see the Sox have to go up against Schilling, Randy Johnson and then Pedro in the playoffs.

I would be thrilled to just see the Sox in the playoffs, there's still a lot of baseball to be played.

JKryl
07-18-2004, 11:09 PM
:rolleyes: Dreaming is one thing, but reality is a killer. RJ isn't the problem, the problem is KW and JR. There's nothing on God's green earth that would cause them to put out the money it would take to get RJ here. But, is he a stud or what? Maybe, just maybe... Nah.