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View Full Version : Ahem...excuse me, Mr. Grobstein...


hsnterprize
07-14-2004, 08:56 PM
I'm just wondering...you did see and hear the Houston fans BOO the now former manager, Jimy Williams, when he was introduced at yesterday's All Star Game, right? Now, you do remember how critical you were of Sox fans for booing Jerry Manuel at last year's ASG, don't you? You did say on the radio, that the ASG wasn't the time for fans to boo their own manager considering this was a nationally televised game/event. Now, after Sox fans had to defend themselves AGAIN for how they reacted to a particular situation, this same scenario has repeated itself deep in the heart of Texas.

Now, I'd like to know from you whether or not the Houston fans are just as bad, classless, or whatever other adjectives you used to criticize Sox fans with in 2003. Are all fans of a host team in an All-Star game obligated to support their team's leaders on a national stage...even when they don't deserve it? Granted, the loud booing at the Cell wasn't a pleasant sound to hear on such a grand scale, and it probably wouldn't have been such a big issue if it weren't for ESPN's Chris Berman saying something about it. You soon said critical things about us Sox fans, so I'd like to know if you were on the radio right now, would you be as harsh against the Houston Astros fans as you were us?

I think that's a legit question, don't you?

SoxxoS
07-14-2004, 09:06 PM
Les:

jeremyb1
07-14-2004, 09:11 PM
Well here I am as a Sox fan and I think it was embarassing and completely classless when the Sox fans did it and equally as bad when the Houston fans did it. I was really ashamed to be a Sox fan when that happened and not because it was the All Star game and that's some sacred event but because a national audience got to witness us booing a man two seasons removed from manager of the year that regardless of the results gave his all to the organization as though if the fan o meter reached five we'd run out and replace the manager.

hsnterprize
07-14-2004, 09:23 PM
Just as a reminer to Les and anyone interested, here's the link to a thread I started last summer about this very subject. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22282&page=1&pp=20&highlight=Star+Game)

Check it out to see what Les said then, and compare it to how he responds now.

doublem23
07-14-2004, 10:11 PM
Thank you, hsnterprize.

Oh, JM deserved his booing and Jimy Williams deserved his.

jeremyb1
07-14-2004, 10:55 PM
I'm always careful not to offend the moderators since I deeply appreciate how much you guys contribute around here, but seriously is this thread non-Sox related? It would seem that at a minimum half of it is about booing Manuel at the All-Star game last season.

Daver
07-14-2004, 10:58 PM
I'm always careful not to offend the moderators since I deeply appreciate how much you guys contribute around here, but seriously is this thread non-Sox related? It would seem that at a minimum half of it is about booing Manuel at the All-Star game last season.
And your point is?

cheeses_h_rice
07-14-2004, 11:05 PM
I'm always careful not to offend the moderators since I deeply appreciate how much you guys contribute around here, but seriously is this thread non-Sox related? It would seem that at a minimum half of it is about booing Manuel at the All-Star game last season.
Seriously, who cares? The thread concerns a tangential issue involving the Sox; TB is as good a place as any.

RedPinStripes
07-14-2004, 11:07 PM
Well here I am as a Sox fan and I think it was embarassing and completely classless when the Sox fans did it and equally as bad when the Houston fans did it. I was really ashamed to be a Sox fan when that happened and not because it was the All Star game and that's some sacred event but because a national audience got to witness us booing a man two seasons removed from manager of the year that regardless of the results gave his all to the organization as though if the fan o meter reached five we'd run out and replace the manager.
If your manager is taking your team down the ****ter he gets boo-ed. National TV is the best place to let your GM know how you feel. It worked for us didnt it? Came a little later then we askd for, but it worked for Huston.

Jerko
07-14-2004, 11:13 PM
Granted, a thread can pop up in the wrong forum every now and then, but come on now. There's like 10 mods here; we REALLY don't need posts complaining about where a thread is located. I've noticed that a lot lately and it's WAY more annoying than the original complaint of whether or not a thread is in the "right" forum or not. If it's not, a mod will move it; so PLEASE, no more complaints about it? Oops, that was not about baseball! Mods, please move this post to The Roadhouse? :angry: :angry:

WSox8404
07-14-2004, 11:28 PM
Paying money to see a team gives us a right to boo. We pay salaries in part, which means that we paid a part of JM's salary. There is no other way besides booing that can let us voice our displeasure. We can not go up to him and say, "Hey JM you better get your ass in gear and start winning or there will be problems." We can only boo. If you can't take the heat, get the hell out of town. People have been booing for generations. It's time we stopped worrying about feelings and started using our voices. If we ever got fired from our job for doing a crappy job, what can we do about it? Nothing. So just deal with it.

HebrewHammer
07-15-2004, 12:24 AM
Well here I am as a Sox fan and I think it was embarassing and completely classless when the Sox fans did it and equally as bad when the Houston fans did it. I was really ashamed to be a Sox fan when that happened and not because it was the All Star game and that's some sacred event but because a national audience got to witness us booing a man two seasons removed from manager of the year that regardless of the results gave his all to the organization as though if the fan o meter reached five we'd run out and replace the manager.I was really ashamed that Jerry Manuel was an all star, I felt he deserved it. To cheer for a manager that didn't deserve it would be something I'd expect to see at the Urinal.

Please try to use puncuation more often, your post hurts my eyes.

kittle42
07-15-2004, 01:28 AM
I was really ashamed that Jerry Manuel was an all star, I felt he deserved it. To cheer for a manager that didn't deserve it would be something I'd expect to see at the Urinal.


Amen. Only a fool, a bandwagon jumper or a Cub fan blindly cheers everything having to do with the team they "support."

Nellie_Fox
07-15-2004, 03:01 AM
I've never understood the motivation behind booing a member of the team you support, unless that player is not giving you full effort. There were times Albert Belle deserved booing. Going way back, Claudelle Washington deserved booing. I hated Juan Agosto, and had a fit every time he was brought into a game, but I didn't boo him, because I didn't think he wasn't trying, he was just awful.

I'll boo lack of effort, but not lack of results. The Sox are better off without JM, but I always thought he was managing to the best of his ability. No manager has ever been right 100% of the time. Tony LaRussa is widely considered to be one of the best managers ever, and he got booed big-time in Chicago, and many of you still think he stinks.

kittle42
07-15-2004, 10:39 AM
I've never understood the motivation behind booing a member of the team you support, unless that player is not giving you full effort.
I'll boo lack of effort, but not lack of results.
The Sox are better off without JM, but I always thought he was managing to the best of his ability.
Yuck, yuck, and yuck.

Grobber33
07-15-2004, 02:20 PM
I'm just wondering...you did see and hear the Houston fans BOO the now former manager, Jimy Williams, when he was introduced at yesterday's All Star Game, right? Now, you do remember how critical you were of Sox fans for booing Jerry Manuel at last year's ASG, don't you? You did say on the radio, that the ASG wasn't the time for fans to boo their own manager considering this was a nationally televised game/event. Now, after Sox fans had to defend themselves AGAIN for how they reacted to a particular situation, this same scenario has repeated itself deep in the heart of Texas.

Now, I'd like to know from you whether or not the Houston fans are just as bad, classless, or whatever other adjectives you used to criticize Sox fans with in 2003. Are all fans of a host team in an All-Star game obligated to support their team's leaders on a national stage...even when they don't deserve it? Granted, the loud booing at the Cell wasn't a pleasant sound to hear on such a grand scale, and it probably wouldn't have been such a big issue if it weren't for ESPN's Chris Berman saying something about it. You soon said critical things about us Sox fans, so I'd like to know if you were on the radio right now, would you be as harsh against the Houston Astros fans as you were us?

I think that's a legit question, don't you?
It IS a legit question,and the answer is YES,YES,YES and the Houston Media has hammered the Fans on that as did many from around the Country.
Last year at this time I was still on the air locally on 1000 during the weekends so I had the Local Radio Forum to bring up the Booing of Manuel. At this time I am not,so that availablity is not there.
I will be commenting on this on my web site www.grobber.com (http://www.grobber.com) in my regular Friday Morning 'rant' that I post there on the home page. If Sox Fans were singled out for last year more than Astro Fans this year,,IT'S DEFINATLY NOT FAIR!!!

Jerko
07-15-2004, 02:42 PM
If Sox Fans were singled out for last year more than Astro Fans this year,,IT'S DEFINATLY NOT FAIR!!!

At least booing a pathetic manager at their own park during the all star game WORKED faster for the Astro fans! They must be better booers than we are!

SSN721
07-15-2004, 03:03 PM
At least booing a pathetic manager at their own park during the all star game WORKED faster for the Astro fans! They must be better booers than we are!


lol :D:

bobj4400
07-15-2004, 03:24 PM
It IS a legit question,and the answer is YES,YES,YES and the Houston Media has hammered the Fans on that as did many from around the Country.
Last year at this time I was still on the air locally on 1000 during the weekends so I had the Local Radio Forum to bring up the Booing of Manuel. At this time I am not,so that availablity is not there.
I will be commenting on this on my web site www.grobber.com (http://www.grobber.com/) in my regular Friday Morning 'rant' that I post there on the home page. If Sox Fans were singled out for last year more than Astro Fans this year,,IT'S DEFINATLY NOT FAIR!!!The same Houston media that has been calling for Jimy's head had the gall to hammer fans for booing him? That is appalling. The fans booing may have been the straw that broke the camel's back and caused McLane to authorize the firing of Williams. If only our owner would have had the same reaction last year maybe we would have made the playoffs and met the Marlins in the World Series! I dont see the problem with voicing your displeasure with a manager that is not doing his job...even if it is on a national stage.

Grobber33
07-15-2004, 03:51 PM
The same Houston media that has been calling for Jimy's head had the gall to hammer fans for booing him? That is appalling. The fans booing may have been the straw that broke the camel's back and caused McLane to authorize the firing of William's. If only our owner would have had the same reaction last year maybe we would have made the playoffs and met the Marlins in the World Series! I dont see the problem with voicing your displeasure with a manager that is not doing his job...even if it is on a national stage.
The argument again is simply 'Let It Go' for one night. Be proud of the Uniform of your Home Team. I had no problem with letting Jerry Manuel 'have it' last year-remember,the message was aimed at Jerry Reinsdrof and Kenny Williams,not the National Media etc.but...Booing of Manuel last year at the AS Game and Williams this year only shows that Fans have become more militant than in the past.
Heck, Bulls Fans booed Stacey King and Dennis Hobson at the FIRST Championship Pep Rally in 1991! True they both were awful that year,but that was going a bit overboard.
I just don't think anyone WEARING a Sox Uniform should have been booed at the AS Game when it was played on the South Side. It sure didn't speed up his departure!

mantis1212
07-15-2004, 04:35 PM
I've never understood the motivation behind booing a member of the team you support, unless that player is not giving you full effort. There were times Albert Belle deserved booing. Going way back, Claudelle Washington deserved booing. I hated Juan Agosto, and had a fit every time he was brought into a game, but I didn't boo him, because I didn't think he wasn't trying, he was just awful.

I'll boo lack of effort, but not lack of results. The Sox are better off without JM, but I always thought he was managing to the best of his ability. No manager has ever been right 100% of the time. Tony LaRussa is widely considered to be one of the best managers ever, and he got booed big-time in Chicago, and many of you still think he stinks.
How about when they're caught with a corked bat? Personally, I would give that player a standing ovation the next game.

bobj4400
07-15-2004, 04:41 PM
How about when they're caught with a corked bat? Personally, I would give that player a standing ovation the next game.
You might have written that in teal, but just look to the North Side for evidence of idiot fans that actually did that. Unbelievable.

Baby Fisk
07-15-2004, 04:50 PM
The argument again is simply 'Let It Go' for one night. Be proud of the Uniform of your Home Team. I had no problem with letting Jerry Manuel 'have it' last year-remember,the message was aimed at Jerry Reinsdrof and Kenny Williams,not the National Media etc.but...Booing of Manuel last year at the AS Game and Williams this year only shows that Fans have become more militant than in the past.
Heck, Bulls Fans booed Stacey King and Dennis Hobson at the FIRST Championship Pep Rally in 1991! True they both were awful that year,but that was going a bit overboard.
I just don't think anyone WEARING a Sox Uniform should have been booed at the AS Game when it was played on the South Side. It sure didn't speed up his departure!Fans pay to see the men who wear those uniforms. Fans don't pay to watch managers drag their teams into the toilet. Manuel deserved to get booed. Williams deserved to get booed. Blindly letting it go at the most opportune moment to deliver a message to ownership is wrong.

mantis1212
07-15-2004, 05:07 PM
You might have written that in teal, but just look to the North Side for evidence of idiot fans that actually did that. Unbelievable.
Exactly

hsnterprize
07-15-2004, 05:58 PM
It IS a legit question,and the answer is YES,YES,YES and the Houston Media has hammered the Fans on that as did many from around the Country.
Last year at this time I was still on the air locally on 1000 during the weekends so I had the Local Radio Forum to bring up the Booing of Manuel. At this time I am not,so that availablity is not there.
I will be commenting on this on my web site www.grobber.com (http://www.grobber.com) in my regular Friday Morning 'rant' that I post there on the home page. If Sox Fans were singled out for last year more than Astro Fans this year,,IT'S DEFINATLY NOT FAIR!!! First of all, thanks for your answer, honesty, and candor about this. Remember, the Sox fans weren't necessarily "singled out" for booing Manuel last year, but we were raked over the coals by both local and national media. I think that was the basis for ESPN's Chris Berman saying that Sox fans were the worst in baseball. Now, I haven't seen any nationally-led criticism about the Astros fans booing Williams like Sox fans were for booing Manuel. Williams' sudden firing after the ASG has quelled the criticism, IMHO. However, do you remember in a press conference late last season when Kenny Williams basically said he was ready to fire Manuel, but Reinsdorf "took the rug from under him", so to speak?

KW was ready to act, and Reinsdorf stopped him with public support of Manuel. I'm guessing if KW was able to 86 Manuel like the Houston ownership got rid of Jimy Williams, maybe the criticism wouldn't be so sharp. However, I still think that even though it's an All Star Game, when you consider the circumstances that led to the booing (i.e., losing 2 out of 3 to Tampa Bay and Detroit, and losing 2 out of 4 to Cleveland right before the break in spite of beating the Cubs 4 out of 6 times and Minnesota 5 out of 6), I think it's fair for fans who paid a lot of money to get tickets to the ASG to voice their opinions when given the chance. Sure, it may have been better served for the fans to really let him have it after the game, but it was the first time since the wretched road trip Sox fans got to deal with Manuel in person. It was the same kind of scenario in Houston this year, with a team predicted by many a baseball analyst to contend for a division title, being 10 games out of first place at the break.

Grobber33
07-15-2004, 10:33 PM
First of all, thanks for your answer, honesty, and candor about this. Remember, the Sox fans weren't necessarily "singled out" for booing Manuel last year, but we were raked over the coals by both local and national media. I think that was the basis for ESPN's Chris Berman saying that Sox fans were the worst in baseball. Now, I haven't seen any nationally-led criticism about the Astros fans booing Williams like Sox fans were for booing Manuel. Williams' sudden firing after the ASG has quelled the criticism, IMHO. However, do you remember in a press conference late last season when Kenny Williams basically said he was ready to fire Manuel, but Reinsdorf "took the rug from under him", so to speak?

KW was ready to act, and Reinsdorf stopped him with public support of Manuel. I'm guessing if KW was able to 86 Manuel like the Houston ownership got rid of Jimy Williams, maybe the criticism wouldn't be so sharp. However, I still think that even though it's an All Star Game, when you consider the circumstances that led to the booing (i.e., losing 2 out of 3 to Tampa Bay and Detroit, and losing 2 out of 4 to Cleveland right before the break in spite of beating the Cubs 4 out of 6 times and Minnesota 5 out of 6), I think it's fair for fans who paid a lot of money to get tickets to the ASG to voice their opinions when given the chance. Sure, it may have been better served for the fans to really let him have it after the game, but it was the first time since the wretched road trip Sox fans got to deal with Manuel in person. It was the same kind of scenario in Houston this year, with a team predicted by many a baseball analyst to contend for a division title, being 10 games out of first place at the break.
Some of you just dont get it! But that's fine. I'm not changing my oppinion,and you're not changing yours. Good thing we live in the USA huh?
Also,when something comes up you dont want to hear,let's bring up something like the Corked Bat?? Bet you were all disapointed that Sammy was NOT Booed at the Allstar Game. Only Bonds got booed. Actully,they did Boo also after Esty walked Bonds.

Daver
07-15-2004, 10:38 PM
Some of you just dont get it! But that's fine. I'm not changing my oppinion,and you're not changing yours. Good thing we live in the USA huh?
Also,when something comes up you dont want to hear,let's bring up something like the Corked Bat?? Bet you were all disapointed that Sammy was NOT Booed at the Allstar Game. Only Bonds got booed. Actully,they did Boo also after Esty walked Bonds.
Actually, he brought up a good point Les, you're doing the sweeping under the rug on this one.

DMarte708
07-16-2004, 01:41 AM
Some of you just dont get it! But that's fine. I'm not changing my oppinion,and you're not changing yours. Good thing we live in the USA huh?
Also,when something comes up you dont want to hear,let's bring up something like the Corked Bat?? Bet you were all disapointed that Sammy was NOT Booed at the Allstar Game. Only Bonds got booed. Actully,they did Boo also after Esty walked Bonds.
Zambrano was booed.

Alou was booed. (And no, it wasn't LOUUUUU).

Corky escaped national embarrasment for one night. Though watching him helplessly run around the right field corner during the first inning was quite hilarious.

Nellie_Fox
07-16-2004, 02:31 AM
Though watching him helplessly run around the right field corner during the first inning was quite hilarious.Not only did he misplay both balls, but he compounded it (as has been his wont) by overthrowing the cutoff man to try to get Ichiro at the plate when he had no chance, allowing the runner to go to third. You'd think after all these years he'd have learned to hit the cutoff man.

TornLabrum
07-16-2004, 06:43 AM
Not only did he misplay both balls, but he compounded it (as has been his wont) by overthrowing the cutoff man to try to get Ichiro at the plate when he had no chance, allowing the runner to go to third. You'd think after all these years he'd have learned to hit the cutoff man.
But isn't good to know some things never change? He used to do the same thing in the early '90s with the Sox.

Grobber33
07-16-2004, 04:15 PM
Zambrano was booed.

Alou was booed. (And no, it wasn't LOUUUUU).

Corky escaped national embarrasment for one night. Though watching him helplessly run around the right field corner during the first inning was quite hilarious.
Dream on if you like,but no they were'nt! And yes it WAS Alooooo because Houston Fans used to do that also.

Hangar18
07-16-2004, 04:36 PM
Alou was BOOOOED, I heard that, and you could see his face that he
didnt like it. Yankee players were also booed. I think the cubs realize
they arent Americas Sweethearts like the media wishes them to be.
I thought that was pretty cool of Astro fans,,,,,,,but it WASNT like what
we did last year. I think the Way SOX Fans FEROCIOUSLY BOOED The Messiah, Wood, Baker was great, and reserving some boos for the Twink,KC players was great too. Say..since were on that subject ..........was
ANYONE at the game who had a Camcorder and taped the Player Introductions?
I notice that FOX DIDNT USE THE FAKE APPLAUSE TRACK at Houston
the other nite. I want a REAL recording of the boos for my own enjoyment.
:smile:

mantis1212
07-16-2004, 04:49 PM
Some of you just dont get it! But that's fine. I'm not changing my oppinion,and you're not changing yours. Good thing we live in the USA huh?
Also,when something comes up you dont want to hear,let's bring up something like the Corked Bat?? Bet you were all disapointed that Sammy was NOT Booed at the Allstar Game. Only Bonds got booed. Actully,they did Boo also after Esty walked Bonds.
I brought up the corked bat to make a point about the way fans treat the players. It's really the other end of the spectrum. If Cub fans/media (take your pick) think its classless to boo Manuel at the All-Star game, giving Sammy a standing O after cheating must be the classiest thing a fan could do right?
This logic is what makes me ill coming from cub fans.

Grobber33
07-16-2004, 06:11 PM
Alou was BOOOOED, I heard that, and you could see his face that he
didnt like it. Yankee players were also booed. I think the cubs realize
they arent Americas Sweethearts like the media wishes them to be.
I thought that was pretty cool of Astro fans,,,,,,,but it WASNT like what
we did last year. I think the Way SOX Fans FEROCIOUSLY BOOED The Messiah, Wood, Baker was great, and reserving some boos for the Twink,KC players was great too. Say..since were on that subject ..........was
ANYONE at the game who had a Camcorder and taped the Player Introductions?
I notice that FOX DIDNT USE THE FAKE APPLAUSE TRACK at Houston
the other nite. I want a REAL recording of the boos for my own enjoyment.
:smile:
I was there and I trust my lwn ears over what anyone watching Fox,or listening on ESPN Radio may think they heard. Besides,,,,I put no stock into anything Fox ever airs since they have more bogus sound effects than any Broadcast operation I have ever heard. I mean,come on now,,it FOX!! Nuff said.

hellenicsoxfan
07-16-2004, 07:06 PM
Just curious. When the Astro fans booed Williams, did Chris Berman make any comment or did he use up all his venom on us last year?

Grobber33
07-16-2004, 07:10 PM
Just curious. When the Astro fans booed Williams, did Chris Berman make any comment or did he use up all his venom on us last year?
Since I was there,I did'nt hear the Telacast,but I saw Berman after the game,and he did rip the Houston Fans at least off the air. Perhaps at some time on the air,but I dont know.

hellenicsoxfan
07-16-2004, 07:22 PM
Since I was there,I did'nt hear the Telacast,but I saw Berman after the game,and he did rip the Houston Fans at least off the air. Perhaps at some time on the air,but I dont know.
Thanks for the info, Les.

vegyrex
07-17-2004, 12:15 AM
Since I was there,I did'nt hear the Telacast,but I saw Berman after the game,and he did rip the Houston Fans at least off the air. Perhaps at some time on the air,but I dont know. If Berman didn't make the same comment about Astro fans like he did about Sox fans he should be called on it. No way he should be allowed to get away with it.

Having said that.

I for one would never boo anybody in a Sox uniform. I didn't even boo Santo when he was with the Sox.

But I didn't cheer for him either. :D:

I was a very :?: 12 year old back then.

Grobber33
07-17-2004, 12:21 AM
If Berman didn't make the same comment about Astro fans like he did about Sox fans he should be called on it. No way he should be allowed to get away with it.

Having said that.

I for one would never boo anybody in a Sox uniform. I didn't even boo Santo when he was with the Sox.

But I didn't cheer for him either. :D:

I was a very :?: 12 year old back then.
That's my only point!! Many of you cheered Albert Belle and Wil Cordero who were both putz's and neither one of them helped the Sox win a darned thing-but they were in Sox Uniforms(Belle in 1997 & 98 & Cordero in 98).
In 1977 Zisk and Gamble were treated like G-ds in Comiskey,but in 1978 when they wore Texas Uniforms at 35th & Shields,they were booed halfway down the Dan Ryan!!(note: Gamble signed with SD,but was so bad with them,he was dealt to Texas midway thru the 1978 season).

bigfoot
07-17-2004, 12:46 AM
I was there and I trust my lwn ears over what anyone watching Fox,or listening on ESPN Radio may think they heard. Besides,,,,I put no stock into anything Fox ever airs since they have more bogus sound effects than any Broadcast operation I have ever heard. I mean,come on now,,it FOX!! Nuff said.
You mean 'Faux', don't you Grobber?

Mohoney
07-17-2004, 01:34 AM
Well here I am as a Sox fan and I think it was embarassing and completely classless when the Sox fans did it and equally as bad when the Houston fans did it. I was really ashamed to be a Sox fan when that happened and not because it was the All Star game and that's some sacred event but because a national audience got to witness us booing a man two seasons removed from manager of the year that regardless of the results gave his all to the organization as though if the fan o meter reached five we'd run out and replace the manager.

I only wish it were that easy. A fan-o-meter? Jerry would have been canned in May, and I would have been able to use some of those playoff tickets I purchased.

Grobber33
07-17-2004, 12:15 PM
You mean 'Faux', don't you Grobber?
What I certainly mean is,with a few exceptions----THEY SUCK!!