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View Full Version : Otis, please read....


ukigdog
07-11-2004, 11:43 PM
There have been a ton of rumors left and right, about who sox are looking at, etc. Otis, if you read this please let us know if you have any updates, or heard anything. Im tired of hearing all these false rumors, and would like to find out what really may be going on with trade talks, etc.

Thanks Otis!

pearso66
07-11-2004, 11:48 PM
Usually if Otis hears anything he is here. I think the absense of Otis means he hasn't heard anything. He may not, remember his insider info comes from the Red Sox.

otis
07-12-2004, 12:40 PM
Haven't heard much lately. I told you that my guy said the WSox would put a package together for Garcia that no other team could match if the other trades fell through. Supposedly they tried real hard for Sheets, but as Milwaukee kept winning the less likely they became to trade him. The package for Sheets even involved Crede! The only new info on the Sox I have is that my source said they are so unpredictable right now. He says that other organizations are scratching their heads with the Sox because they could go without making another move, or acquire another superstar or even two. KW has something that he has yet to have..........$$$$. I will keep you posted with anything new I hear.

SoxBoy14
07-12-2004, 12:54 PM
thanks otis, too bad that sheets deal doesn't look very probable right now:(:

MarqSox
07-12-2004, 12:55 PM
The only new info on the Sox I have is that my source said they are so unpredictable right now. He says that other organizations are scratching their heads with the Sox because they could go without making another move, or acquire another superstar or even two.
IMO, this is exactly what makes KW such a great GM. He'll be able to get players for cheaper than he may otherwise because nobody can look at the Sox and say "Let's hold out and force them to pay more," since for all they know, KW is working a better deal elsewhere. It's just like in poker the most dangerous guy at the table isn't necessarily the best player, it's the guy that has no discernable patterns.

WSox8404
07-12-2004, 12:57 PM
Haven't heard much lately. I told you that my guy said the WSox would put a package together for Garcia that no other team could match if the other trades fell through. Supposedly they tried real hard for Sheets, but as Milwaukee kept winning the less likely they became to trade him. The package for Sheets even involved Crede! The only new info on the Sox I have is that my source said they are so unpredictable right now. He says that other organizations are scratching their heads with the Sox because they could go without making another move, or acquire another superstar or even two. KW has something that he has yet to have..........$$$$. I will keep you posted with anything new I hear.

So you are saying that KW now has money? If that is the case, then I think he will make somemore moves.

iwcup
07-12-2004, 01:00 PM
seeing that this is the earliest they have hit the 1,000,000 in attendance since 94, I would think its safe to say that Jerry will loosen up the purse strings...

Iguana775
07-12-2004, 01:07 PM
Beltran!?

WSox8404
07-12-2004, 01:09 PM
Come on KW. I am so excited now. Don't dissapoint.

pearso66
07-12-2004, 01:10 PM
I dont know if I want Beltran for what it woudl cost to get him, and then not being able to retain him. If it's at all possible, I'd rather have Crawford from TB. Unless of course Houston is willing to trade him for spare parts, but I doubt that.

Iguana775
07-12-2004, 01:12 PM
I dont know if I want Beltran for what it woudl cost to get him, and then not being able to retain him. If it's at all possible, I'd rather have Crawford from TB. Unless of course Houston is willing to trade him for spare parts, but I doubt that.
I would love to have Crawford but i just dont think that TB will trade him.

Crawford and Randy Johnson?

CWSGuy406
07-12-2004, 01:22 PM
When Otis says that KW now has money to work with, the two guys that pop right to mind are The Big Unit and Kendall. Both with big contracts, but if a team is willing to take on a lot of that money, the lesser the prospects will go.

But IMO, we really now have a very good shot at getting Kendall.

Tekijawa
07-12-2004, 01:28 PM
When Otis says that KW now has money to work with, the two guys that pop right to mind are The Big Unit and Kendall. Both with big contracts, but if a team is willing to take on a lot of that money, the lesser the prospects will go.

But IMO, we really now have a very good shot at getting Kendall.
That's only 30 Million a year... come on we can spend more than that. He said loosened the purse strings not gave him 3 more purses to work with!

twinsuck1
07-12-2004, 01:50 PM
Heres an Idea! If they have extra $$ now, how about resigning MAGGLIO??

bobj4400
07-12-2004, 01:52 PM
Heres an Idea! If they have extra $$ now, how about resigning MAGGLIO??
Post of the week!!!

Basten
07-12-2004, 01:53 PM
When Otis says that KW now has money to work with, the two guys that pop right to mind are The Big Unit and Kendall. Both with big contracts, but if a team is willing to take on a lot of that money, the lesser the prospects will go.

But IMO, we really now have a very good shot at getting Kendall.
If he has money (I'll believe it when I see it), than it would be downright insane not to go after RJ with all the farm system might he can muster. This organization is at the cross-roads, and RJ is just what the doctored ordered.

Kendall? No go. He is not the baserunner he used to be and at this point he is only average defensively.

Vidro makes less than Kendall and is FA after this year, I think, so it's not a multi-year commitment in case things don't work out. Check out his 2001-2003 numbers - absolutely deadly in clutch-situations - from both sides of the plate. He would be a great #2 hitter for the playoffs.

Because he is in a limbo with the Expos this year and his production is down, and because he still has 4 Mill left on his contract, Expos might not ask quite as much talent in return as they normally would have.

Of course that means Crede and Uribe will have to fight for 3B spot, and Willie and Rowand will fight for CF. Competition and depth is good.

The Wimperoo
07-12-2004, 01:55 PM
If he has money (I'll believe it when I see it), than it would be downright insane not to go after RJ with all the farm system might he can muster. This organization is at the cross-roads, and RJ is just what the doctored ordered.

Kendall? No go. He is not the baserunner he used to be and at this point he is only average defensively.

Vidro makes less than Kendall and is FA after this year, I think, so it's not a multi-year commitment in case things don't work out. Check out his 2001-2003 numbers - absolutely deadly in clutch-situations - from both sides of the plate. He would be a great #2 hitter for the playoffs.

Because he is in a limbo with the Expos this year and his production is down, and because he still has 4 Mill left on his contract, Expos might not ask quite as much talent in return as they normally would have.

Of course that means Crede and Uribe will have to fight for 3B spot, and Willie and Rowand will fight for CF. Competition and depth is good.
Expos resigned Vidro about a month ago to a long term deal.

Flight #24
07-12-2004, 01:56 PM
Heres an Idea! If they have extra $$ now, how about resigning MAGGLIO??
How about because Magg's offer doesn't have anything to do with the overall payroll, it's about Maggs wanting more than he's worth, and the same or more than better players....

Maggs is nowhere near as good as Vlady....but he wants Vlady money
Maggs is about as good as Tejada.....but he wants more money (since Tejada has a deferral and Maggs won't take one).

Where in any of that does the Sox budget come in? Oh, I forgot - the answer is "hey - just pay him more".

If the payroll goes up and we have that $14mil to play with, we'll still have a very good team next year.

Basten
07-12-2004, 01:57 PM
Heres an Idea! If they have extra $$ now, how about resigning MAGGLIO??
He has to earn it first.

Last time I checked, Magglio sucked the only time Sox made the playoffs, and he is not exactly helping his cause with that un-MVP-like 870 OPS he's got going for him so far this season. His 2003 was also not quite as MVP-ish as had been hoped. Who knows how he'll run and field after the knee injury - right now he is a DH.

He wants the big dough? Let him earn it first by having a MONSTER 2nd half of the season and leading the Sox deep into the playoffs first. The end.

WWIII
07-12-2004, 02:02 PM
Clemens?

Basten
07-12-2004, 02:03 PM
That's only 30 Million a year... come on we can spend more than that. He said loosened the purse strings not gave him 3 more purses to work with!
Randy Johnson makes 10 Mill a year; the rest is deferred.

JR would have to pay less than 5 Mill after the ASB - and given the upside of the deal, that's peanuts - if indeed he ever intended on opening up the purse in the first place.

Sox could always trade Big Unit after this year in the unlikely event that revenues don't increase by 25-30+ % across the board.

And we don't need Kendall, so that's that.

Basten
07-12-2004, 02:07 PM
Clemens?
Astros won't deal him - they just got Kent and Pettite back, and once Einsberg, Oswalt and Bagwell remember to produce as was expected of them coming into this season, I wouldn't be suprised if Astros make a HUGE charge in the Wild Card race.

E Coast Sox Fan
07-12-2004, 02:07 PM
What about Javy Lopez? The O's are in last place and it's probably time for the O's management to start thinking about the future.

Tekijawa
07-12-2004, 02:16 PM
Randy Johnson makes 10 Mill a year; the rest is deferred.
That's still 16 million a year that Jerry has to pay, sure only 10 million counts towards the cap but 16 million is 16 million!

kittle42
07-12-2004, 02:20 PM
Beltran!?
Yeah, yeah, I know it's in hot pink and all, but Houston is far from out of the wild card race, and if they can get one good reliever, I think they'd have a really great shot at it.

delben91
07-12-2004, 02:21 PM
What about Javy Lopez? The O's are in last place and it's probably time for the O's management to start thinking about the future.

That's rather intriguing, though I know the O's signed him long term and he's got to be getting slightly up there in age. Also, he's caught an inordinately high number of games this year since the O's backup for a large part of the season was Robert Machado (remember him?). So you have to worry about the toll that could be taking on his body. That said, I still think he'd look great in a Sox uniform.

kittle42
07-12-2004, 02:22 PM
What about Javy Lopez? The O's are in last place and it's probably time for the O's management to start thinking about the future.
The Orioles won't ever think about the future. They are the Orioles, perennial holders of the Worst Free Agent Acquisitions title.

DickAllen72
07-12-2004, 02:23 PM
What about Javy Lopez? The O's are in last place and it's probably time for the O's management to start thinking about the future.

Yhat's what I've been thinking. I wonder what prospects the Orioles would want for Javy? Maybe Rauch and a couple of others?

Foulke You
07-12-2004, 02:32 PM
The Orioles won't ever think about the future. They are the Orioles, perennial holders of the Worst Free Agent Acquisitions title.
I would say the Orioles are the American League Champions of the "Worst Free Agent Acquisitions Title" the NL team that holds that distinctive honor is the New York Mets. Take your pick on which team has been worse assembling a good team through free agency.

I wouldn't mind having Javy Lopez in a Sox uni but I doubt Baltimore will trade him. If they did, we'd have to dump a lot of players to get him. Besides, if they start dumping big name free agents again, it will be a tough sell to their fans who bought into the team being competitive this year. Surprisingly, I did read in the Sun-Times on Sunday that many teams are interested in Orioles starter Sidney Ponson despite his bloated E.R.A. and stomach not to mention a 3W-12L record. Shows how desperate some teams are for pitching.

npdempse
07-12-2004, 02:32 PM
Can we please stop thinking about Clemens and (to a lesser extent) Johnson? Clemens takes no trades, no way. His family's in driving distance to the park, and he doesn't travel if he's not pitching. Nobody but Houston offers this. Johnson's in a similar position, but he might go to a huge market (NY or Boston, maybe, maybe) if it can bolster his reputation, but even that's in doubt. Please consider the intangibles.

Basten
07-12-2004, 03:07 PM
That's still 16 million a year that Jerry has to pay, sure only 10 million counts towards the cap but 16 million is 16 million!Now it's not.

Right now Sox could maybe pay 10 Mill.

Years from now when Sox are dominating the division and the renovated park is sold out on regular basis.....paying back that 6 Mill won't be a problem.

If Sox are adding, there could be NO better option than Randy Johnson, both economically and production-wise.

That is IF Jerry is willing to add 4-5 more Mill to the 2004 payroll - and I wouldn't put anything past the cheap bastard.

Tekijawa
07-12-2004, 03:37 PM
Now it's not.

Right now Sox could maybe pay 10 Mill.

This should be in Deep Pink

Years from now when Sox are dominating the division and the renovated park is sold out on regular basis.....paying back that 6 Mill won't be a problem.

This should also be in Deep Pink

If Sox are adding, there could be NO better option than Randy Johnson, both economically and production-wise.

Once again in Deep Pink

That is IF Jerry is willing to add 4-5 more Mill to the 2004 payroll -

Also again in Deep Pink

and I wouldn't put anything past the cheap bastard.

this statement is colored correctly!

Flight #24
07-12-2004, 03:46 PM
Can we please stop thinking about Clemens and (to a lesser extent) Johnson? Clemens takes no trades, no way. His family's in driving distance to the park, and he doesn't travel if he's not pitching. Nobody but Houston offers this. Johnson's in a similar position, but he might go to a huge market (NY or Boston, maybe, maybe) if it can bolster his reputation, but even that's in doubt. Please consider the intangibles.
IMO Johnson will go if he thinks the team has a serious shot at the WS. I woudl like to think the Sox qualify if Frank's back. Without Frank, it becomes a bit iffier, but I think we still have a shot with a playoff rotation of Johnson, Garcia, Buehrle, Garland.

Flight #24
07-12-2004, 03:48 PM
Years from now when Sox are dominating the division and the renovated park is sold out on regular basis.....paying back that 6 Mill won't be a problem.
.
Except that in that year, if/when the Sox manage their payroll budget as if they are paying that $6mil to a player (rather than a retired player)......any guesses as to what names JR's called by many here at WSI????

Basten
07-12-2004, 04:02 PM
Except that in that year, if/when the Sox manage their payroll budget as if they are paying that $6mil to a player (rather than a retired player)......any guesses as to what names JR's called by many here at WSI????Look....

There are inherent risks and downsides to everything.

Unit's knee may give the second he becomes a White Sox. The recent attendance, merchandise sales and ratings surge may prove to be just a mirage. Home run porch in LF may never materialize. Half the team may end up on the DL in the 2nd half, with Sox finishing 4th in the division. Cubs may win the World Series and bury us in this town.

After 86 years of almost uninterupted futility, are Sox in any position to play it safe?

If things work out as they should -- as they are slowly but surely starting to work out as we speak -- that 6 Mill deferred will be peanuts by the time it has to be paid back.

If you can't recognize that this franchise is at crossroads and JR has a golden opportunity to partly make-up for the myriad old sins........I can't help you there.

Come on Jerry, make it work - 4-5 Mill is not that much for what you're getting in return. Screw Kendall and Guardado.

Dadawg_77
07-12-2004, 04:03 PM
Except that in that year, if/when the Sox manage their payroll budget as if they are paying that $6mil to a player (rather than a retired player)......any guesses as to what names JR's called by many here at WSI????
But if can trade away a guy who easily could become our best player in 2006 since the future is now, that same crowd shouldn't be whining about 6 million deferred money in 2006.

Basten
07-12-2004, 04:11 PM
But if can trade away a guy who easily could become our best player in 2006 since the future is now, that same crowd shouldn't be whining about 6 million deferred money in 2006.
Forget it, these people are afraid of their own shadows.

For them, Freddy Garcia is as good as it gets - nevermind that his Road ERA is 4.00+ and that in 5 years from 1999 to 2003, he's only had 1 season that's remotely close to what we're all expecting of him here.

Freddy as a #2 - breaking up Unit and Buerhle - now that's something I can get behind.

Basten
07-12-2004, 04:41 PM
Right now Sox could maybe pay 10 Mill.

This should be in Deep Pink

Years from now when Sox are dominating the division and the renovated park is sold out on regular basis.....paying back that 6 Mill won't be a problem.

This should also be in Deep Pink

If Sox are adding, there could be NO better option than Randy Johnson, both economically and production-wise.

Once again in Deep Pink

That is IF Jerry is willing to add 4-5 more Mill to the 2004 payroll -

Also again in Deep Pink

and I wouldn't put anything past the cheap bastard.

this statement is colored correctly!
Rememer, that almost 60% of the season is past, so Sox would only have to pay 40-45% of that 10 Mill this year. And next year? Either they'll have the money, or they won't and will peddle him off to another contending team.

Very plausible if the right steps are taken.

Huh? Randy Johnson's off-field value, esp. to an attention-starved team like the Sox, is still enormous.

Why? Right now the consensus is Sox are willing to make a big trade or two. I am assuming taking on salary is part of it. And 4-5 Mill for Unit this year is much < unrealistic 30 Mill figure mentioned upthread.

Yes, sadly.

Tekijawa
07-12-2004, 04:51 PM
unrealistic 30 Mill figure mentioned upthread.
so you just wouldn't pay Johnson and Kendall next year? or did I miss something. Last I checked we have a 65 Million dollar pay roll... I highly DOUBT That JR sees spending 80 million next year as possible, although some of us may like it and sure watching RJ close out his career her would be fun. I really don't in any possible situation see that happening unless a LARGE portion of the contract is eaten by the Diamondbacks... JR was reluctant to give bartolo colon more than 12 million a year, turns out to be for a good reason, what's to make you think that 5 million the rest of this year and 16+ Million next year to a 41 year old pitcher who has been in the DL is feasible? especially for a team with our minuscule Pay roll?

Flight #24
07-12-2004, 04:55 PM
Look....

There are inherent risks and downsides to everything.

Unit's knee may give the second he becomes a White Sox. The recent attendance, merchandise sales and ratings surge may prove to be just a mirage. Home run porch in LF may never materialize. Half the team may end up on the DL in the 2nd half, with Sox finishing 4th in the division. Cubs may win the World Series and bury us in this town.

After 86 years of almost uninterupted futility, are Sox in any position to play it safe?

If things work out as they should -- as they are slowly but surely starting to work out as we speak -- that 6 Mill deferred will be peanuts by the time it has to be paid back.

If you can't recognize that this franchise is at crossroads and JR has a golden opportunity to partly make-up for the myriad old sins........I can't help you there.

Come on Jerry, make it work - 4-5 Mill is not that much for what you're getting in return. Screw Kendall and Guardado.
My point was not that they sholdn't go get RJ, in fact I think it would be an awesome move, and I think we'd fit his demand for a WS contender, especially if Frank can stay out of the OR.

The point was that there's a lot of people blithely assuming away any impact of the deferred $$$, that would applaud the deal, but then turn around and when that bill comes due, complain about it.

personally, i think it would be a great deal, and I'd be willing to forgo $6mil of whatever the payroll budget is in a few years in order to go fot it now.

Flight #24
07-12-2004, 04:57 PM
so you just wouldn't pay Johnson and Kendall next year? or did I miss something. Last I checked we have a 65 Million dollar pay roll... I highly DOUBT That JR sees spending 80 million next year as possible, although some of us may like it and sure watching RJ close out his career her would be fun. I really don't in any possible situation see that happening unless a LARGE portion of the contract is eaten by the Diamondbacks... JR was reluctant to give bartolo colon more than 12 million a year, turns out to be for a good reason, what's to make you think that 5 million the rest of this year and 16+ Million next year to a 41 year old pitcher who has been in the DL is feasible? especially for a team with our minuscule Pay roll?
The thing that makes it feasible is that in effect, JR takes on an expensive, but short-term contract. And I'd like to think that with the buzz generated from an RJ trade, we could sell out USCF fairly regularly. Any fan that holds anything against the Sox AFTER seeing them go get Randy & Garcia is IMO - nuts. And anyone who then complains about not resigning Maggs.....well, see the prior sentence. If they're willing to go get RJ and pay him, they're certainly not lowballing Maggs.

Basten
07-12-2004, 05:09 PM
so you just wouldn't pay Johnson and Kendall next year?Who said anything about getting Kendall? Not me - I don't want his overrated ass.

If things go right, Big Unit's 10 Mill next year (let alone the 6 Mill deferred) won't matter.

If things don't go right, there will be takers for him and his salary among the the usual suspects (NY, Boston, etc) who are always looking to upstage one another.

And that 80 Mill figure you mentioned? Koch's 6.3 Mill is gone. One of Valentin/Loaiza is gone for sure - if not both. That's another 9. There is a distinct possibility that at least one of Lee/Konerko/Magglio departs - if Sox re-sign Magglio, they can't afford both Lee and Konerko and thier 9 Mill a piece.

Great pitching is simply more important. Even adjusting for Buerhle, Thomas, Garcia and Shingo's raise next year, Randy Johnsons's 10 Mill can easily be fit into the budget next year, provided the payroll is 70+ Mill -- that is IF Sox wish to retain his services to begin with.

Paulwny
07-12-2004, 05:22 PM
[QUOTE=Basten]
If things don't go right, there will be takers for him and his salary among the the usual suspects (NY, Boston, etc) who are always looking to upstage one another.
QUOTE]

Only if he ok's a trade. If he's traded this year, the team he plays for accepts his no-trade clause which will still be in the contract next year.

habibharu
07-12-2004, 05:29 PM
i dont think we have the prospects to get johnson. im sure the dbacks will want guys like honel, anderson, sweeney. and that is not good since our farm system is not that great anyways. IMO, we should go after a guy like ramon ortiz, or benson, who would be easy to get and would fit in perfectly as the 5. and with scho. in our bullpen, that would be strengthened also.

habibharu
07-12-2004, 05:30 PM
How about because Magg's offer doesn't have anything to do with the overall payroll, it's about Maggs wanting more than he's worth, and the same or more than better players....

Maggs is nowhere near as good as Vlady....but he wants Vlady money
Maggs is about as good as Tejada.....but he wants more money (since Tejada has a deferral and Maggs won't take one).

Where in any of that does the Sox budget come in? Oh, I forgot - the answer is "hey - just pay him more".

If the payroll goes up and we have that $14mil to play with, we'll still have a very good team next year. he's not anywhere close to vlad, and he isnt even worth as much as tejeda, since miggy plays SS

Basten
07-12-2004, 05:32 PM
The point was that there's a lot of people blithely assuming away any impact of the deferred $$$, that would applaud the deal, but then turn around and when that bill comes due, complain about it.
There will always be fools and whinners out there, so who cares.

Even if Sox get bounced in the first round of the playoffs after getting Unit, you won't hear me complaining - this franchise has GOT to start taking some big-ass risks - otherwise they'll never get their old fanbase back, let alone win the heart of the Casual Fan.

And, for the record, when I says "risks", I don't mean a pseudo-risk like giving up Mr. AAAA Royce Ring for Robbie Alomar and being content with an obscenely low 50 Mill payroll in what should have been one of the more special seasons in the history of the franchise........as was the case in 2003.

No, by "risk" I mean getting your Freddy Garcias and Randy Johnsons, even - GASP - going into red for a year.......

pearso66
07-12-2004, 06:02 PM
The thing your missing about Johnson, is in order to waive his no-trade clause, he wants a guaranteed 2 year contract extension. And I'm assuming it will have to be in the same $$ range it is in now. He is 41, and while he is good now, who knows what happens later. I think we have a pretty good shot to win it all now, without Johnson. If we lose this year, JR lets go of everyone, and we are stuck with a 42 year old with 3 more years of contract at $16 mil a year. And then you mention what we'd have to give up to get him. I dont want him.


Oh and what is the obsession with Kendall? He is highly overrated, and not worth the price tag

IlliniSoxFan
07-12-2004, 06:07 PM
The thing your missing about Johnson, is in order to waive his no-trade clause, he wants a guaranteed 2 year contract extension. And I'm assuming it will have to be in the same $$ range it is in now. He is 41, and while he is good now, who knows what happens later. I think we have a pretty good shot to win it all now, without Johnson. If we lose this year, JR lets go of everyone, and we are stuck with a 42 year old with 3 more years of contract at $16 mil a year. And then you mention what we'd have to give up to get him. I dont want him.


Oh and what is the obsession with Kendall? He is highly overrated, and not worth the price tag
The extension thing was directly contraverted by Randy Johnson himself in the article posted in the other thread. Not sure if you can trust him on that, but maybe that makes the possibility of him coming to the Sox more likely.

Basten
07-12-2004, 06:29 PM
The thing your missing about Johnson, is in order to waive his no-trade clause, he wants a guaranteed 2 year contract extension
**** him, let him rot in Arizona then.

Kadafi311
07-12-2004, 06:40 PM
Now it's not.

Right now Sox could maybe pay 10 Mill.

This should be in Deep Pink

Years from now when Sox are dominating the division and the renovated park is sold out on regular basis.....paying back that 6 Mill won't be a problem.

This should also be in Deep Pink

If Sox are adding, there could be NO better option than Randy Johnson, both economically and production-wise.

Once again in Deep Pink

That is IF Jerry is willing to add 4-5 more Mill to the 2004 payroll -

Also again in Deep Pink

and I wouldn't put anything past the cheap bastard.

this statement is colored correctly!
Hahahahah... awesome.

Dadawg_77
07-12-2004, 09:54 PM
**** him, let him rot in Arizona then.
With modern training techniques age is becoming less and less major item. Players are more productive in their latter stages of their career then ever before.

beckett21
07-12-2004, 10:04 PM
With modern training techniques age is becoming less and less major item. Players are more productive in their latter stages of their career then ever before.I'd be willing to bet Randy Johnson has less cartilage in his knee than Thomas has in his ankle.

You want to talk about an albatross and a disaster waiting to happen? You want to talk about hamstringing the payroll?

I'd love to have Johnson for the stretch run this season, but if it means two more years at whatever ridiculous dollars he would be making, I'll pass. He could prove me wrong and I would gladly eat those words, but I doubt it. The reward is truly fantastic, but the risk is off the charts IMO.

Dadawg_77
07-12-2004, 10:05 PM
I'd be willing to bet Randy Johnson has less cartilage in his knee than Thomas has in his ankle.

You want to talk about an albatross and a disaster waiting to happen? You want to talk about hamstringing the payroll?

I'd love to have Johnson for the stretch run this season, but if it means two more years at whatever ridiculous dollars he would be making, I'll pass. He could prove me wrong and I would gladly eat those words, but I doubt it. The reward is truly fantastic, but the risk is off the charts IMO.
Never said I wasn't a gambler just I want a higher reward then a Freddy Garcia.

beckett21
07-12-2004, 10:13 PM
Never said I wasn't a gambler just I want a higher reward then a Freddy Garcia.
I will give Johnson credit in that I expected him to have broken down by now. But as the season goes on, and that knee keeps grinding, the injury risk just keeps climbing exponentially.

I could see gambling on him for this year; beyond that, he scares me.

pearso66
07-12-2004, 10:25 PM
If it was this year only, and maybe next year, I'd think about it, but for 2 more years, no way. Just like everyone else here is saying

soxwon
07-12-2004, 10:29 PM
So you are saying that KW now has money? If that is the case, then I think he will make somemore moves.
ok if he has $ lets get ivan rodriguez, beltran and guardado

this will guarantee a world series.

then when the cubs get eliminated in sept, we can get
zambrano

Basten
07-12-2004, 10:50 PM
ok if he has $ lets get ivan rodriguez, beltran and guardado

this will guarantee a world series.

then when the cubs get eliminated in sept, we can get
zambrano
We don't need hitting at that price, and neither Beltran nor Ivan will be available.

Guarantee a world series? when Boston and NY are in your league, no less? Are you off your rocker - baseball playoffs are a crapshoot.

Cubs may indeed get eliminated in September....OR, they may sweep through the playoffs, 1998 Yankees-style. That's baseball for you.

And why am I even responding to this moron? "Trade for Zambrano"? Ya, sure buddy, whatever you say......

Basten
07-12-2004, 11:00 PM
With modern training techniques age is becoming less and less major item. Players are more productive in their latter stages of their career then ever before.You cannot circumvent the laws of physiology with all the supplements and training in the world.

Edgar has aged literally overnight - up until last August, he was a 960 OPS hitter, in a pitcher's park no less....6 months later and he's done. Robbie is another one (from 2001 to 2002). Boone. A hundreds of similar declines in the last decade......And unlike Julio Franco who is a utility player, Randy Johnson would be expected to carry the White Sox team on his back in the next 2 years. Tall task, no pun intended to say the least.

Even if his knee and other body parts remain intact in the next 2 years, you never know when Big Unit loses his armspeed and things go to hell, velocity and break-wise. It could happen tomorrow. Literally.

This basic reality should lower his trade value considerably, and a 2-year extension is out of the question. I am thinking he is trying to scare the prospective buyers off with this extension crap -- or maybe he wants to use whatever leverage he has to get as much money as possible -- that no-trade clause is a negotiating weapon. WHo knows.

Either way, Sox should make a run at him, but no extension unless doctors find that knee to be in mint condition....which they won't.

WSox8404
07-12-2004, 11:53 PM
IMO Johnson will go if he thinks the team has a serious shot at the WS. I woudl like to think the Sox qualify if Frank's back. Without Frank, it becomes a bit iffier, but I think we still have a shot with a playoff rotation of Johnson, Garcia, Buehrle, Garland.
Ha. It's pretty funny that we all leave out our only all-star from our dream rotations. I do agree though. Loaiza is not on any of my dream rotations.

jabrch
07-13-2004, 08:10 AM
Heres an Idea! If they have extra $$ now, how about resigning MAGGLIO??
Because Magglio doesn't want to stay here. He has turned down deals over a 5th year and a few million in deferred money. Let's not stick ourselves with a bad contract just cuz we like a player now.

Dadawg_77
07-13-2004, 09:26 AM
You cannot circumvent the laws of physiology with all the supplements and training in the world.

Edgar has aged literally overnight - up until last August, he was a 960 OPS hitter, in a pitcher's park no less....6 months later and he's done. Robbie is another one (from 2001 to 2002). Boone. A hundreds of similar declines in the last decade......And unlike Julio Franco who is a utility player, Randy Johnson would be expected to carry the White Sox team on his back in the next 2 years. Tall task, no pun intended to say the least.

Even if his knee and other body parts remain intact in the next 2 years, you never know when Big Unit loses his armspeed and things go to hell, velocity and break-wise. It could happen tomorrow. Literally.

This basic reality should lower his trade value considerably, and a 2-year extension is out of the question. I am thinking he is trying to scare the prospective buyers off with this extension crap -- or maybe he wants to use whatever leverage he has to get as much money as possible -- that no-trade clause is a negotiating weapon. WHo knows.

Either way, Sox should make a run at him, but no extension unless doctors find that knee to be in mint condition....which they won't.
Satchel Page pitch till well no one really knows but best guesses are 46 and he still was effective. I am not saying there isn't risk but there is a great upside that would be worth the risk.

Tekijawa
07-13-2004, 09:42 AM
And that 80 Mill figure you mentioned? Koch's 6.3 Mill is gone. One of Valentin/Loaiza is gone for sure - if not both. That's another 9. There is a distinct possibility that at least one of Lee/Konerko/Magglio departs - if Sox re-sign Magglio, they can't afford both Lee and Konerko and thier 9 Mill a piece.

Great pitching is simply more important. Even adjusting for Buerhle, Thomas, Garcia and Shingo's raise next year, Randy Johnsons's 10 Mill can easily be fit into the budget next year, provided the payroll is 70+ Mill -- that is IF Sox wish to retain his services to begin with.
Kendall was mentioned in the first post I responded to. That 9 million that you saved from Koch's Salary and Valentin, Loaiza (wich is more alon the lines of 11 million) has already been used to resign Garcia. Lee is locked up for the next 2-3 years I believe Konerko i slocked up through Next year, they may not be able to afford their contracts next year but they are locked into them. Now if magglio leaves that leaves enough money to sign Johnson, and keep the Payroll relatively low, but we better not expect much movement in the offseason then!

Basten
07-13-2004, 09:58 AM
Kendall was mentioned in the first post I responded to. That 9 million that you saved from Koch's Salary and Valentin, Loaiza (wich is more alon the lines of 11 million) has already been used to resign Garcia. Lee is locked up for the next 2-3 years I believe Konerko i slocked up through Next year, they may not be able to afford their contracts next year but they are locked into them. Now if magglio leaves that leaves enough money to sign Johnson, and keep the Payroll relatively low, but we better not expect much movement in the offseason then!Whoa, hold up.

Koch - 6.3.
Valentin - 5
Loaiza - 4
Lee - 6.5 (9 next year)
Konerko - 8.25 (8.75 next year)
Magglio - 14

It's clear that Sox cannot afford both Carlos and Paulie. Right now there're producing enough that there surely will be takers. The money saved pays for Freddy.

Valentin and Loaiza pay for Burhle, Frank, Shingo and other raises.

Koch partially pays for Unit's 10 Mill -- the rest comes from increased 2004 revenues and JR's generosity.

Magglio stays. Hell, Valentin might stay as well if he a paycut.

Basten
07-13-2004, 10:09 AM
. I am not saying there isn't risk but there is a great upside that would be worth the risk.Agreed.

However, Unit's age, bad knee and slight loss in velocity (as compared to his best days) means that Arizona should not be allowed to rape our farm system.

We're paying for his salary in full AND there is a huge risk, afterall.

jabrch
07-13-2004, 10:30 AM
**** him, let him rot in Arizona then.
ABSOLUTELY

2 more years? No freaking way.

What makes me laugh is the whiners have been saying KW needed to get a #2 or #3 pitcher all season. When he finally does, they say he isn't good enough and we need Randy Johnson - otherwise he is still a bad GM. It really makes me laugh.

1.5 years at $24mm for a 40 year old pitcher with recent injury history? Um - methinks that's a bad use of limited resources. Extending that deal our 2 more years? Methinks that is moronic.

Paulwny
07-13-2004, 01:06 PM
With modern training techniques age is becoming less and less major item. Players are more productive in their latter stages of their career then ever before.
Try to convince JR, maybe he'll sign a pitcher to more then a 3 yr. deal.

Tekijawa
07-13-2004, 01:18 PM
Whoa, hold up.

Koch - 6.3.
Valentin - 5
Loaiza - 4
Lee - 6.5 (9 next year)
Konerko - 8.25 (8.75 next year)
Magglio - 14

It's clear that Sox cannot afford both Carlos and Paulie. Right now there're producing enough that there surely will be takers. The money saved pays for Freddy.

Valentin and Loaiza pay for Burhle, Frank, Shingo and other raises.

Koch partially pays for Unit's 10 Mill -- the rest comes from increased 2004 revenues and JR's generosity.

Magglio stays. Hell, Valentin might stay as well if he a paycut.
My Guess is that you really don't understand the contract status of anyone on this team...

Buehrle has a contract, I believe it's for the same ammount, no more than a million more for next year.

Shingo Is signed through next year for a mere 300k more than he's making this year, which is 700k.

Pauly and Lee also have GUARANTEED CONTRACTS through next year, unless you trade them, which I don't see happening, then you have to pay them. And if they trade them they will most likely get a similar contract back, but they will trade niether, so we won't worry about that.

Magglio is a FA, Loiza (let him go), as is Valentin, and Koch would have been.

While I would enjoy RJ being here it's really not a good idea to spend 25% of you payroll on a 41 year old pitcher that would at BEST, play in 20% of you games... Id rather have the $24 million that is left on his contract through 2005, unless I was a big market team like the yankees, to go after the Catcher, right fielder, 2 starters, and Secondbaseman (among other things less troubling) that we'll need next year. (Not to mention the LF and 1stbaseman you are planning on giving away)

Basten
07-13-2004, 01:24 PM
What makes me laugh is the whiners have been saying KW needed to get a #2 or #3 pitcher all season. When he finally does, they say he isn't good enough and we need Randy Johnson - otherwise he is still a bad GM. It really makes me laugh.
.
Well, in my mind Freddy Garcia trade signaled that Sox were officially GOING FOR IT, but with Loiaza falling apart and not pitching like an ace (which was expected away from Safeco).....Hey why not Randy Johnson? It wetted the appetite, I'll tell you that much right now. :D:

I mean, if Sox are trying to win NOW, then let's do it the right away and at the same time see if Sox fanbase can be revitalized or not.

Yes, Unit is still owed 15 Mill in the next 2 years (plus deferred), but is it that outrageous considering all he potentially brings to the table to a team like the Sox? Are we gonna let Cubs steal our sunshine forever?

Win1ForMe
07-13-2004, 01:29 PM
My Guess is that you really don't understand the contract status of anyone on this team...

Buehrle has a contract, I believe it's for the same ammount, no more than a million more for next year.

Shingo Is signed through next year for a mere 300k more than he's making this year, which is 700k.
Actually Buehrle goes from $3.50M to $5.75M next year. And if Kenny decides to pick up Shingo's option, he'll earn $2.5 M next year. So that's a $4 M increase.

Tekijawa
07-13-2004, 01:34 PM
Actually Buehrle goes from $3.50M to $5.75M next year. And if Kenny decides to pick up Shingo's option, he'll earn $2.5 M next year. So that's a $4 M increase.I thought Shingo was paid 700k this year and then a Million next year? I guess that makes Justifying picking up a contract like Radys even harder!

Basten
07-13-2004, 01:35 PM
My Guess is that you really don't understand the contract status of anyone on this team...

Buehrle has a contract, I believe it's for the same ammount, no more than a million more for next year.

Shingo Is signed through next year for a mere 300k more than he's making this year, which is 700k.

Pauly and Lee also have GUARANTEED CONTRACTS through next year, unless you trade them, which I don't see happening, then you have to pay them. And if they trade them they will most likely get a similar contract back, but they will trade niether, so we won't worry about that.

Magglio is a FA, Loiza (let him go), as is Valentin, and Koch would have been.

And my guess is that your reading comprehension is nill.

I specifically mentioned the part where you TRADE either Lee or Konerko because chances are at 9 Mill a year, at least one of them won't be worth it to the Sox in 2005.

Buerhle gets a 2-3 Mill raise next year. Get your facts straight.
Shingo has an option for 2.5 Mill next year. Get your facts straight.

I got Valentin, Loaiza, Magglio and Koch right -- they accounted for 28.3 Mill of the roughly 65 Mill 2004 payroll. As many as 3 of them could be gone next year. Do the math.

And for the last time.....As far as 2004 and 2005 budgets are concerned, Randy Johnson is owed 15 mill, NOT 24 mill. Do you understand what "deferred" means?

Paulwny
07-13-2004, 01:42 PM
And my guess is that your reading comprehension is nill.

I specifically mentioned the part where you TRADE either Lee or Konerko because chances are at 9 Mill a year, at least one of them won't be worth it to the Sox in 2005.

Buerhle gets a 3 Mill raise next year. Get your facts straight.
Shingo has an option for 2.5 Mill next year. Get your facts straight.

I got Valentin, Loaiza, Magglio and Koch right -- they accounted for 28.3 Mill of the roughly 65 Mill 2004 payroll. As many as 3 of them could be gone next year. Do the math.

And for the last time.....As far as 2004 and 2005 budgets are concerned, Randy Johnson is owed 15 mill, NOT 24 mill. Do you understand what "deferred" means?
RJ wants to play for a contender this year and next year. He'd want, as Gaston did, a firm commitment from JR as to team pay-roll for next year. He won't come to the sox if he thinks this is a one year shot at the title and then a team sell-off to lower pay-roll next year.

Flight #24
07-13-2004, 01:42 PM
I thought Shingo was paid 700k this year and then a Million next year? I guess that makes Justifying picking up a contract like Radys even harder!
Someone posted the total salary increases for players under contract, and IIRC, it was 8-10mil. That wouldn't include Shingo & his raise.

So right now, from the beginning of the '04 season's payroll, we have:

Koch: -6mil
Maggs: -14mil
Valentin: -5mil
Loaiza: -4mil
TOTAL: -29mil

General raises: 10mil
Garcia: 8mil
Shingo: 1.5mil
TOTAL: 19.5mil

That leaves 10mil + any payroll increase (which I'd estimate to be 10-12mil based on my projection that we win the division). Total remaining resources: 20-22mil. Team needs: #4SP, C, OF, IF (or resigned Valentin), middle relief. Highly doable.

And even if you factor in 10mil to RJ & 5 to Valentin and 5-7mil left for a C, OF, MR, that's doable too.

Tekijawa
07-13-2004, 01:45 PM
And my guess is that your reading comprehension is nill.

I specifically mentioned the part where you TRADE either Lee or Konerko because chances are at 9 Mill a year, at least one of them won't be worth it to the Sox in 2005.

Buerhle gets a 3 Mill raise next year. Get your facts straight.
Shingo has an option for 2.5 Mill next year. Get your facts straight.

I got Valentin, Loaiza, Magglio and Koch right -- they accounted for 28.3 Mill of the roughly 65 Mill 2004 payroll. As many as 3 of them could be gone next year. Do the math.

And for the last time.....As far as 2004 and 2005 budgets are concerned, Randy Johnson is owed 15 mill, NOT 24 mill.

Then I'll just run out and by my Randy Johnson Jersey now... sorry for this miscalculations. This team is obviously the economic front runner and look we'd only have to find a replacement Right Fielder, Leftfielder or First baseman, Shortstop, Luckily Koch is alread gone, some one to replace Loiza and Schoenwiese (who is also another FA) and probably a DH also next year... not to mention the hole we already have at Catcher. But at least we'd have 18.3 million to find these 7+ players! How can this deal not make sense!

Tekijawa
07-13-2004, 01:51 PM
Someone posted the total salary increases for players under contract, and IIRC, it was 8-10mil. That wouldn't include Shingo & his raise.

So right now, from the beginning of the '04 season's payroll, we have:

Koch: -6mil
Maggs: -14mil
Valentin: -5mil
Loaiza: -4mil
TOTAL: -29mil

General raises: 10mil
Garcia: 8mil
Shingo: 1.5mil
TOTAL: 19.5mil

That leaves 10mil + any payroll increase (which I'd estimate to be 10-12mil based on my projection that we win the division). Total remaining resources: 20-22mil. Team needs: #4SP, C, OF, IF (or resigned Valentin), middle relief. Highly doable.

And even if you factor in 10mil to RJ & 5 to Valentin and 5-7mil left for a C, OF, MR, that's doable too.I Officialy quit this thread.
Which should be completely in Deep Pink anyway

I'll come back when RJ is traded here and eat crow, until then dream away about trading all of our guys next year for a 41 year old pitcher and then paying him (against the Cap mind you) a few years after he's gone... for those of you who think $5 Million to Jose this year is hurting us, try thinking ahead until 2006 When our $75 Million dollar payroll Start's $6million in the hole from a pitcher who is sitting at home in Arizona!

Flight #24
07-13-2004, 01:56 PM
for those of you who think $5 Million to Jose this year is hurting us, try thinking ahead until 2006 When our $75 Million dollar payroll Start's $6million in the hole from a pitcher who is sitting at home in Arizona!
I would hope that w 2 years of a rotation headed by RJ, Freddy, Buehrle, Garland that attendance would warrant a higher payroll than $75mil.

Basten
07-13-2004, 02:40 PM
those of you who think $5 Million to Jose this year is hurting us, try thinking ahead until 2006 When our $75 Million dollar payroll Start's $6million in the hole from a pitcher who is sitting at home in Arizona!It's thinking like this that has led to 86 years of....what exactly?

I'd rather Sox have a payroll of 80 Mill with 6 Mill still on the books (and a possible ALCS Trophey or two!) 2-3 years from now......as opposed to a payroll of 50 Mill but with zero deferred $$ on the books -- can you say Kids Can Play 3.0? :smile: