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Lip Man 1
07-11-2004, 07:39 PM
Perhaps because the site was down for a bit this was missed. If it has been discussed I apologize.

Now we know why Williams was pissed off. Personally unless someone was planning on asking / ordering Thomas to play, I don't see why he couldn't have complied with the request. It seems harmless enough and as Williams explains, this 'deception,' apparently already helped win a game for the Sox this season.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040710soxbrite,1,2690746.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Lip

samram
07-11-2004, 07:46 PM
Perhaps because the site was down for a bit this was missed. If it has been discussed I apologize.

Now we know why Williams was pissed off. Personally unless someone was planning on asking / ordering Thomas to play, I don't see why he couldn't have complied with the request. It seems harmless enough and as Williams explains, this 'deception,' apparently already helped win a game for the Sox this season.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040710soxbrite,1,2690746.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Lip
I agree that KW has a legitimate beef with Frank. I like KW, but this is something that could have been handled internally.

munchman33
07-11-2004, 07:50 PM
Well, in Frank's defense, I'm sure if the injury is severe enough, he shouldn't be walking around.

Or perhaps even he's feeling really down at the chance he might not play again this year, and wants to seperate himself from the team.

nitetrain8601
07-11-2004, 07:59 PM
I agree with munchman. If it's a sever injury, which it sounds like, I rather not run the risk of having him out for the season if it means him not standing. I can't side with KW on this. I side with Ozzie.

SoxFan76
07-11-2004, 08:05 PM
Frank is hurt. He doesn't need to be a decoy. He can't pinch hit anyways. We were discussing this ealier with our Cub fan neighbors. They started going off on how Frank isn't a team player and he's a big baby. That really pissed me off.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-11-2004, 08:07 PM
Frank is hurt. He doesn't need to be a decoy. He can't pinch hit anyways. We were discussing this ealier with our Cub fan neighbors. They started going off on how Frank isn't a team player and he's a big baby. That really pissed me off.
I recommend you move. Obviously the neighborhood is going to seed.

:bandance:

SoxFan76
07-11-2004, 08:42 PM
I recommend you move. Obviously the neighborhood is going to seed.

:bandance:
:D: , no they are nice people. The one is from Columbia, so I can't blame her. She doesn't know who to root for, so she picked the more popular team I'm assuming. The other guy, I don't know where he's from. (He's from Illinois, just don't know where)

hose
07-11-2004, 08:50 PM
KW should just learn to keep his mouth shut.

How in the world does airing your dirty laundry help matters?
:angry: :angry: :angry:

TornLabrum
07-11-2004, 08:51 PM
Ozzie, ever the diplomat was quoted as saying "both [Thomas and Williams] are right."

As far as I'm concerned this is a repeat of Williams shooting off his mouth again before thinking. He says he likes keeping things in-house, but he seems to be the first to share what he considers his dirty linen with the press.

Frank now has a brace because it was hurting him to even stand on the ground according to the articles I've read. He shouldn't be in the dugout as a decoy. He should be resting his goddamned ankle.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-11-2004, 09:08 PM
I love how yesterday's Cubune quoted Kenny pushing past reporters declaring, "I've learned when to keep my mouth shut," and then 24 hours later he's blabbing anyway.

This guy is a real amateur. I imagine Kenny as one of those weak-brain imperial stormtroopers being made to say whatever Obi-won Kenobi wanted them to say. :cool:

:KW
"Frank's papers are in order. You may proceed..."

flo-B-flo
07-11-2004, 09:10 PM
Or perhaps even he's feeling really down at the chance he might not play again this year, and wants to seperate himself from the team.[/QUOTE] If this is the case He's not a very good teammate no matter what he says.

ondafarm
07-11-2004, 09:11 PM
This guy is a real amateur. I imagine Kenny as one of those weak-brain imperial stormtroopers being made to say whaterver Obi-won Kenobi wanted them to say. :cool:

:KW
"Frank's papers are in order. You may proceed..."
These aren't the ballplayers you are looking for.

These aren't the ballplayers I was looking for.

ondafarm
07-11-2004, 09:14 PM
Perhaps because the site was down for a bit this was missed. If it has been discussed I apologize.

Now we know why Williams was pissed off. Personally unless someone was planning on asking / ordering Thomas to play, I don't see why he couldn't have complied with the request. It seems harmless enough and as Williams explains, this 'deception,' apparently already helped win a game for the Sox this season.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040710soxbrite,1,2690746.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Lip
Lip, I'm not trying to make this habitual but I disagree with you on this one. I see Frank's side clearer than KW's. When he can't go, he doesn't want to act like he can. It strikes at his pride. If you can't do it well, then don't do it. Afraid I find myself in similiar situations in the smattering of things I've shown a dash of talent at.

dickallen15
07-11-2004, 09:32 PM
The Sox won the game, KW popped off after the game. He needs to get a grip. KW was on the radio in the morning saying Frank would be out a couple of days. Seems the cover is blown right there. He couldn't have pinch hit anyway, the Sox won, chill out KW.

Basten
07-11-2004, 09:33 PM
Perhaps because the site was down for a bit this was missed. If it has been discussed I apologize.

Now we know why Williams was pissed off. Personally unless someone was planning on asking / ordering Thomas to play, I don't see why he couldn't have complied with the request. It seems harmless enough and as Williams explains, this 'deception,' apparently already helped win a game for the Sox this season.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040710soxbrite,1,2690746.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Lip
Just as KW accumulates enough goodwill....he tries his best to squander it.

Yo, Mr. Williams, how about you ****ing swing us a Randy Johnson instead of wasting your time with counter-productive confrontations with our best player?

Oh that's right - you can't.

jackbrohamer
07-11-2004, 10:41 PM
Ever since KW took over he's publicly treated Thomas as if he were a nuisance that KW would like to have off the team. Starting in 2001 when David Wells ripped Thomas on radio in that stupid "no gust/no glory" tirade -- and KW and everybody in the Sox failed to support Thomas -- until now, KW has done nothing but treat Thomas shabbily.

And KW expects Thomase to do him a favor by acting like a "decoy"? How pathetic.

Jjav829
07-11-2004, 11:01 PM
Why does everyone always have to jump on someone as if someone is always in the wrong? KW was right in wanting Frank to act as a decoy. As he correctly pointed out, the exact same thing with Maggs helped us against Oakland earlier in the year. KW doesn't know what Frank feels like so if Frank doesn't feel like he can physically play that role, then he doesn't have to. Just another small incident blown up by the media which ultimately leads to everyone here choosing sides and trying to rip apart someone in the organization. Where is that "Who Cares?" tag?

Dadawg_77
07-11-2004, 11:44 PM
Why does everyone always have to jump on someone as if someone is always in the wrong? KW was right in wanting Frank to act as a decoy. As he correctly pointed out, the exact same thing with Maggs helped us against Oakland earlier in the year. KW doesn't know what Frank feels like so if Frank doesn't feel like he can physically play that role, then he doesn't have to. Just another small incident blown up by the media which ultimately leads to everyone here choosing sides and trying to rip apart someone in the organization. Where is that "Who Cares?" tag?
No, KW proves once again why he is a dip **** that should be canned. Only a ****ing idiot would think Frank would make a good decoy. Kenny must have forgoten this was a American League game with a DH. Thus any manager with any intelligence is going to write of Frank the minute he wasn't in the starting lineup as the DH. It was common knowledge that Frank had an ankle problem. He didn't play in Weds, Thurs so why would any one in their right mind think Frank would pitch hit when he wasn't in the lineup as the DH. And they used Willie Harris as a pitch hitter on Thurs. If both were available you take Thomas every time. Williams may have had a point if the Sox played in the NL, but they don't. The Sox were short a man because Kenny didn't want to bring Borchard up, simple as that. Normal course for Kenny if something goes wrong is to blame someone else so Frank is a fall guy.

pudge
07-12-2004, 12:33 AM
No, KW proves once again why he is a dip **** that should be canned. Only a ****ing idiot would think Frank would make a good decoy. Kenny must have forgoten this was a American League game with a DH. Thus any manager with any intelligence is going to write of Frank the minute he wasn't in the starting lineup as the DH. It was common knowledge that Frank had an ankle problem. He didn't play in Weds, Thurs so why would any one in their right mind think Frank would pitch hit when he wasn't in the lineup as the DH. And they used Willie Harris as a pitch hitter on Thurs. If both were available you take Thomas every time. Williams may have had a point if the Sox played in the NL, but they don't. The Sox were short a man because Kenny didn't want to bring Borchard up, simple as that. Normal course for Kenny if something goes wrong is to blame someone else so Frank is a fall guy.
I have no clue what you're talking about, Frank could have still been used in the same exact manner that Maggs was before he went on the DL, and as KW explained to the press, the decoy worked before.

Now I'm not defending KW for speaking out in public, I'm just saying he had a reason for not wanting to be one man short. I like KW's attitude that every game matters.

petekat
07-12-2004, 12:44 AM
total agreement here. I've liked the job that kW has done recently- but this episode brings back all the negative about KW- playing bush league games, as if the "decoy" stunt is going to work. If KW is up these hijinks, makes me believe that KW is not the "straight shooter' he makes himself out to be, but is always trying to one-up other owners. Same goes with the garbage about not bringing up Reed/Borchard, even though the team clearly needed their help, because having them up and perform poorly in the bigs might lower their trade value-- while the team treads water with Ross Gload. What kind of ass backwards logic is that. Doesnt seem much doubt that he pulled a fast one with the Sirotka torn labrum on poor fool Gordon Ash.

Have a lot of respect for Thomas for turning this bush league idea down. Frank is a man of pride, if he's not healthy enough to go all out- he's not going to saddle the team= much better off bringing up Borchard.



No, KW proves once again why he is a dip **** that should be canned. Only a ****ing idiot would think Frank would make a good decoy. Kenny must have forgoten this was a American League game with a DH. Thus any manager with any intelligence is going to write of Frank the minute he wasn't in the starting lineup as the DH. It was common knowledge that Frank had an ankle problem. He didn't play in Weds, Thurs so why would any one in their right mind think Frank would pitch hit when he wasn't in the lineup as the DH. And they used Willie Harris as a pitch hitter on Thurs. If both were available you take Thomas every time. Williams may have had a point if the Sox played in the NL, but they don't. The Sox were short a man because Kenny didn't want to bring Borchard up, simple as that. Normal course for Kenny if something goes wrong is to blame someone else so Frank is a fall guy.

Kadafi311
07-12-2004, 01:14 AM
I love how yesterday's Cubune quoted Kenny pushing past reporters declaring, "I've learned when to keep my mouth shut," and then 24 hours later he's blabbing anyway.

This guy is a real amateur. I imagine Kenny as one of those weak-brain imperial stormtroopers being made to say whatever Obi-won Kenobi wanted them to say. :cool:

:KW
"Frank's papers are in order. You may proceed..."http://members.cox.net/kadafi/KWtrooper.jpg
"Prepare to assimilate!"

Dadawg_77
07-12-2004, 09:08 AM
I have no clue what you're talking about, Frank could have still been used in the same exact manner that Maggs was before he went on the DL, and as KW explained to the press, the decoy worked before.

Now I'm not defending KW for speaking out in public, I'm just saying he had a reason for not wanting to be one man short. I like KW's attitude that every game matters.
Whether or not Thomas was on the bench, he was one man short. Thomas couldn't play and everyone in the stadium would have known that. You don't use decoys in the AL games, because if a guy is available to pitch hit, he could DH unless he can't run, then you shouldn't use him in regular season game anyways. It is a dumb ass theory that you best hitter can be effective decoy in an AL game. And what good does a decoy bring anyways, how does it work?

Tekijawa
07-12-2004, 10:34 AM
If this is the case He's not a very good teammate no matter what he says.
I played College basketball... If you have ever played a high level team sport and a player with as much impact as Frank on the team goes down, and mopes around the rest of the team because they don't get the chance to play, then it can effect the mood of the entire team, him being in the background is probably better over all for all of this...

voodoochile
07-12-2004, 10:58 AM
Whether or not Thomas was on the bench, he was one man short. Thomas couldn't play and everyone in the stadium would have known that. You don't use decoys in the AL games, because if a guy is available to pitch hit, he could DH unless he can't run, then you shouldn't use him in regular season game anyways. It is a dumb ass theory that you best hitter can be effective decoy in an AL game. And what good does a decoy bring anyways, how does it work?
It might affect the other coaches pitching decisions. Knowing Frank is on the bence, might cause another team's manager to not put in a leftie to pitch to Jose for example.

Dadawg_77
07-12-2004, 11:14 AM
It might affect the other coaches pitching decisions. Knowing Frank is on the bence, might cause another team's manager to not put in a leftie to pitch to Jose for example.
Please, that is stretching to defend the thought process of Thomas as a decoy. First off Frank historically has hit pitching no matter what arm the pitcher threw with. Secondly Jose's OPS vs righties is .973 vs southpaws is .622. Frank is 1.038 right handers and .840 vs lefties. So this year lefties make Jose go from All Star to chump and make Frank go from MVP to a good player. Who would you rather use you loogy on? An opposing manager will view as the second or most dangerous hitter in the lineup thus they won't or shouldn't use any lefty to face him.

You complete ignoring the factor that an opposing manger should logically discount Frank presence form the game because he isn't starting as the DH. The DH isn't the most physically demanding postion probally the least taxing, thus hitters with a bum foot would start there, unless they couldn't hit. Since Frank wasn't starting one could safety guess that Frank's foot problem prevent him from hitting and thus wouldn't ply or if used in pitch hitting role would be much less a factor.

voodoochile
07-12-2004, 11:37 AM
Please, that is stretching to defend the thought process of Thomas as a decoy. First off Frank historically has hit pitching no matter what arm the pitcher threw with. Secondly Jose's OPS vs righties is .973 vs southpaws is .622. Frank is 1.038 right handers and .840 vs lefties. So this year lefties make Jose go from All Star to chump and make Frank go from MVP to a good player. Who would you rather use you loogy on? An opposing manager will view as the second or most dangerous hitter in the lineup thus they won't or shouldn't use any lefty to face him.

You complete ignoring the factor that an opposing manger should logically discount Frank presence form the game because he isn't starting as the DH. The DH isn't the most physically demanding postion probally the least taxing, thus hitters with a bum foot would start there, unless they couldn't hit. Since Frank wasn't starting one could safety guess that Frank's foot problem prevent him from hitting and thus wouldn't ply or if used in pitch hitting role would be much less a factor.
It was just a possibility, not a guarantee. But I don't get what the big deal is about all of this, of course I haven't bothered to read the media stories about KW's comments or anything else.

Flight #24
07-12-2004, 11:52 AM
Doesnt seem much doubt that he pulled a fast one with the Sirotka torn labrum on poor fool Gordon Ash.

.
Can we get over this one already? Remember - the Blow Jays docs examined Siro backwards & forwards & contended (like the Sox docs), that he was OK. Saying KW not only knew about the injury, but deliberately lied about it AND screwed another team into trading for an injured player is WAY over the line.

Kadafi311
07-12-2004, 11:59 AM
Please, that is stretching to defend the thought process of Thomas as a decoy. First off Frank historically has hit pitching no matter what arm the pitcher threw with. Secondly Jose's OPS vs righties is .973 vs southpaws is .622. Frank is 1.038 right handers and .840 vs lefties. So this year lefties make Jose go from All Star to chump and make Frank go from MVP to a good player. Who would you rather use you loogy on? An opposing manager will view as the second or most dangerous hitter in the lineup thus they won't or shouldn't use any lefty to face him.

You complete ignoring the factor that an opposing manger should logically discount Frank presence form the game because he isn't starting as the DH. The DH isn't the most physically demanding postion probally the least taxing, thus hitters with a bum foot would start there, unless they couldn't hit. Since Frank wasn't starting one could safety guess that Frank's foot problem prevent him from hitting and thus wouldn't ply or if used in pitch hitting role would be much less a factor.I think KW explained it best:

"We won a game like that earlier in the season when Magglio [Ordonez] wasn't available to play, but he served as a decoy. And it kept a left-hander out of the game and Jose Valentin hit a homer [to win the game].

"It would have been nice to have that option [Friday] and that's all I'll say about it." You're saying an opposing manager should assume Frank is unable to PH because he isn't starting at DH? That is a rather large assumption.

It would of at least been nice to have the decoy option available. If the opposing manager didn't buy it, well, that is the very nature of a decoy - sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.

KW has every right to be ticked off.

Mickster
07-12-2004, 12:02 PM
KW has every right to be ticked off.
He very well might. Just keep it in the clubhouse, KW.:(:

Tekijawa
07-12-2004, 12:08 PM
Not to mention that all the Stories about Frank possibly being out for the season broke more than 3 hours before game tim eon Friday...

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040709soxside,1,1048875.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

But I doubt anyone on the Angels staff reads newspapers... I would also imagine that Frank Didn't take BP on Friday also? That might have given Socia a hint about Franks ability, Although he wan ONLY smart enough to win only one World Series...

Dadawg_77
07-12-2004, 12:24 PM
I think KW explained it best:

You're saying an opposing manager should assume Frank is unable to PH because he isn't starting at DH? That is a rather large assumption.

It would of at least been nice to have the decoy option available. If the opposing manager didn't buy it, well, that is the very nature of a decoy - sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.

KW has every right to be ticked off.
KW is an idiot and he either is making this event up or no short term memory. Mags didn't play on Apr 24, May 20 and MAy 26 till the other day and went on the DL on June 4th. Jose didn't play on the 24th and didn't hit a homer on the 20th. So lets look at games between May 26th and June 4th, Jose hit three homers on in that range; May 27th, May 30th, and June 1st. Now the Sox lost June 1st game 6-4, won the May 27th game 9-0 and won the May 30th game 11-2. Hmmmm.............. Jose homer on the 27th came in the first inning and on the 30th, Jose's homer came in the 2nd inning so would a guy make a pitching change just to bring in a lefty at those points, no. The June 1st game is the game that best fits what Kenny was talking about. Jose hit a home in the 9th to tie the game off of A's pitcher Jim Micir, right hander. The A's had already use Bradford so Rincon was the lefty remaining in the pen. Now did Mags on the bench effect Macha choice of leaving Jim in to pitch to Jose, I don't know but I would guess Macha would have left Rincon on the bench and brought in Duchscherer (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6767), who had a 1.31 ERA at that point to face Mags.

Kadafi311
07-12-2004, 12:26 PM
He very well might. Just keep it in the clubhouse, KW.Can't disagree with that.


Not to mention that all the Stories about Frank possibly being out for the season broke more than 3 hours before game tim eon Friday...

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040709soxside,1,1048875.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

But I doubt anyone on the Angels staff reads newspapers... I would also imagine that Frank Didn't take BP on Friday also? That might have given Socia a hint about Franks ability, Although he wan ONLY smart enough to win only one World Series...The article you posted is dated July 9th. The Sox last game against the Angles was July 8th. Nice use of teal though.

Kadafi311
07-12-2004, 12:35 PM
Now did Mags on the bench effect Macha choice of leaving Jim in to pitch to Jose, I don't know but I would guess Macha would have left Rincon on the bench and brought in Duchscherer (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6767), who had a 1.31 ERA at that point to face Mags.That is exactly my point.

In this statement you agree that you "don't know" if Maggs presence in the dugout was the deciding factor in Macha leaving him in the game to pitch to Jose.

Hell, noone knows except Macha. But wouldn't you agree that it's nice that the possibility existed that Maggs presence in the dugout determined the actions on the field?

Dadawg_77
07-12-2004, 12:58 PM
That is exactly my point.

In this statement you agree that you "don't know" if Maggs presence in the dugout was the deciding factor in Macha leaving him in the game to pitch to Jose.

Hell, noone knows except Macha. But wouldn't you agree that it's nice that the possibility existed that Maggs presence in the dugout determined the actions on the field?
Well it was top of the ninth, with two outs, no one on base with 4-3 lead. With Oakland's pen troubles, I wouldn't of had Mecir out there but since he took you this far, might as well leave him in. But for the sake of argument lets say Macha did bring out a lefty to face Jose. Now does he fear Ozzie countering with Mags, maybe but you still would make that move since you can counter that with pulling a righty out of your pen. But since that wasn't the way Macha played it, I would highly guess Mags presence on the bench had no effect on the outcome of Jose at bat.

The fact still hasn't change the Kenny went out of his way to embellish the fact in order to make the best player in Sox franchise history look bad. This is the guy when talking to JR about JR's redoing Frank's contract said, "I'll still trade his fat ass." If it came down to Frank or Kenny, I pray JR makes the right choice and hands Kenny his walking papers.

Dadawg_77
07-12-2004, 12:59 PM
Can't disagree with that.


The article you posted is dated July 9th. The Sox last game against the Angles was July 8th. Nice use of teal though.
It was slip, since we are talking about Friday's game, one could safety assume Tekijawa meant Mariners.

Tekijawa
07-12-2004, 01:01 PM
It was slip, since we are talking about Friday's game, one could safety assume Tekijawa meant Mariners.
Atually it was a little of both, I saw that the thread was about friday's game and the talk was about the angels, I didn't double check and somehow thought Friday was against the Angel's... My bad for being a moron!:rolleyes:

Basten
07-12-2004, 01:05 PM
Just as KW accumulates enough goodwill....he tries his best to squander it.

Yo, Mr. Williams, how about you ****ing swing us a Randy Johnson instead of wasting your time with counter-productive public confrontations with our best player?

Oh that's right - you can't.
This point bears reiterating.

Kadafi311
07-12-2004, 01:27 PM
Well it was top of the ninth, with two outs, no one on base with 4-3 lead. With Oakland's pen troubles, I wouldn't of had Mecir out there but since he took you this far, might as well leave him in. But for the sake of argument lets say Macha did bring out a lefty to face Jose. Now does he fear Ozzie countering with Mags, maybe but you still would make that move since you can counter that with pulling a righty out of your pen. But since that wasn't the way Macha played it, I would highly guess Mags presence on the bench had no effect on the outcome of Jose at bat.I think we have to just chalk this part up to differing opinions. I can appreciate a spirited debate on baseball strategy. :smile:

The fact still hasn't change the Kenny went out of his way to embellish the fact in order to make the best player in Sox franchise history look bad. This is the guy when talking to JR about JR's redoing Frank's contract said, "I'll still trade his fat ass." If it came down to Frank or Kenny, I pray JR makes the right choice and hands Kenny his walking papers.I couldn't agree more with this part. KW should of never gone public, that much is true. Although, in my opinion, he was correct in wanting Frank to stay suited up just incase.

I've been an ardent Hurt fan since he came up, and since my arrival in Southern Cal I've been spreading his gospel across the west coast. However, I do often find myself questioning his off-the-field judgement and comments.

Dadawg_77
07-12-2004, 01:45 PM
I think we have to just chalk this part up to differing opinions. I can appreciate a spirited debate on baseball strategy. :smile:

I couldn't agree more with this part. KW should of never gone public, that much is true. Although, in my opinion, he was correct in wanting Frank to stay suited up just incase.

I've been an ardent Hurt fan since he came up, and since my arrival in Southern Cal I've been spreading his gospel across the west coast. However, I do often find myself questioning his off-the-field judgement and comments.
I can fault Frank here, he is probally in extreme amount of pain, bone spurs hurt. There is no way he can help this team other then marginal value his decoy could provide, but GM wants him to hobble around in pain so the team has a "full" roster. The thing is if Frank did dress the Sox would still be one man down and instead of correcting that problem by DLing Frank and calling up Borchard sooner, Kenny complains Frank didn't dress. Plus I think Frank took tons of grief in 1999, and while there is a new GM and manager in town, that still could be in the back of his mind. Why play in pain when you will only get ****ted on for it?

oldcomiskey
07-12-2004, 04:50 PM
Just as KW accumulates enough goodwill....he tries his best to squander it.

Yo, Mr. Williams, how about you ****ing swing us a Randy Johnson instead of wasting your time with counter-productive confrontations with our best player?

Oh that's right - you can't.Magglio is his best player.

oldcomiskey
07-12-2004, 04:51 PM
This point bears reiterating.
No it dont because is no longer the best player--let alone the best hitter

TornLabrum
07-12-2004, 04:58 PM
I played College basketball... If you have ever played a high level team sport and a player with as much impact as Frank on the team goes down, and mopes around the rest of the team because they don't get the chance to play, then it can effect the mood of the entire team, him being in the background is probably better over all for all of this...
Which is why the Sox lost that night.

RKMeibalane
07-12-2004, 05:08 PM
A few things:

1. Kenny Williams apparently still hasn't learned the art of subtlety when dealing with his players. This is the second time this season that he has publicly criticized a player by name. There was another instance where he criticized a player, but didn't give the person's name, back in ST. If something happens in the Sox clubhouse, then it needs to stay there. Nothing good can come out of a GM blasting his best player.

2. Since all the articles I have read describe Frank as being in so much pain that he can barely walk around without discomfort, then there is little or no chance that he can play right now. Therefore, putting him on the DL and calling up Borchard was probably the best solution to the problem. Keeping Frank on the bench as a decoy to scare opposing managers isn't likely to work. By now, I think the rest of the American League knows that Thomas is not able to play, so I doubt that having him on the bench is going to make a difference.

3. Right now, the best thing for Frank to be doing is resting. He's more likely to get the rest he needs spending time away from the ballclub. Why? It is my opinion (not that that's worth much) that being around the team every day will only cause Frank to become anxious about getting back onto the field. He might try to come back too soon, only to aggrivate his injury. If he does that, he's done for the season. I don't think anyone here wants that to happen.

4. Frank should have been more forthcoming about his injury, but then again, it's possible that he himself didn't know how serious the injury was. Knowing that something hurts, and knowing why it hurts or how bad the injury is are different things. The injury Frank suffered was originally diagnosed as a sprained ankle. Maybe Frank was under the impression that his ankle was just taking longer than normal. Believe it or not, sprains can take time to heal to the point where there is no discomfort when playing a sport.

5. It is possible that Frank could be playing through his injury. Maybe the pain really isn't that bad. Having said that, there's no way any us can really know what Frank is feeling. Therefore, I don't think it's fair for people to be calling him names (i.e. Big Skirt, crybaby, etc.). If an athlete says he's hurt, then he's hurt. I can remember back in when Grant Hill originally hurt his ankle. A number of people thought he was exaggerating as to the extent of his injury. Now, four years later, I wonder if those people still have that opinion. I doubt it.

Jjav829
07-12-2004, 07:21 PM
No, KW proves once again why he is a dip **** that should be canned. Only a ****ing idiot would think Frank would make a good decoy. Kenny must have forgoten this was a American League game with a DH. Thus any manager with any intelligence is going to write of Frank the minute he wasn't in the starting lineup as the DH. It was common knowledge that Frank had an ankle problem. He didn't play in Weds, Thurs so why would any one in their right mind think Frank would pitch hit when he wasn't in the lineup as the DH. And they used Willie Harris as a pitch hitter on Thurs. If both were available you take Thomas every time. Williams may have had a point if the Sox played in the NL, but they don't. The Sox were short a man because Kenny didn't want to bring Borchard up, simple as that. Normal course for Kenny if something goes wrong is to blame someone else so Frank is a fall guy.Then I'm a ****ing idiot because I think Frank would have made a very good decoy. Assuming Seattle didn't know the full extent of Frank's injury, he would have made a fine decoy. Unless they had some very good insider information, they likely didn't know the full extent of Frank's injury. Most reports that day (including one that came out overnight) had Frank as fine and expected to be back in a matter of days. Just because a guy can't DH, that does not eliminate him from playing. Pinch hitting duty for a guy without a serious injury is not out of question if a situation were to come up the Sox needed the tying run to come to the plate. Now obviously if Seattle knew there was no way Frank was going to pinch hit, it wouldn't effect them. But without knowing he's out for sure, the presence of Frank as an available pinch hitter will always be on the opposing managers mind regardless of how Frank does in pinch hitting. KW was perfectly right in his thinking that Frank would make a good decoy.

TornLabrum
07-12-2004, 09:26 PM
Then I'm a ****ing idiot
The first step to recovery is recognizing that there is a problem. Congratulations! :D:

Dadawg_77
07-12-2004, 09:41 PM
Then I'm a ****ing idiot because I think Frank would have made a very good decoy. Assuming Seattle didn't know the full extent of Frank's injury, he would have made a fine decoy. Unless they had some very good insider information, they likely didn't know the full extent of Frank's injury. Most reports that day (including one that came out overnight) had Frank as fine and expected to be back in a matter of days. Just because a guy can't DH, that does not eliminate him from playing. Pinch hitting duty for a guy without a serious injury is not out of question if a situation were to come up the Sox needed the tying run to come to the plate. Now obviously if Seattle knew there was no way Frank was going to pinch hit, it wouldn't effect them. But without knowing he's out for sure, the presence of Frank as an available pinch hitter will always be on the opposing managers mind regardless of how Frank does in pinch hitting. KW was perfectly right in his thinking that Frank would make a good decoy.
The night before the Sox used Willie Harris instead of Thomas as a pitch hitter, that tell an opposing manager as much as he needs to know about Frank's condition.

Jjav829
07-12-2004, 09:56 PM
The night before the Sox used Willie Harris instead of Thomas as a pitch hitter, that tell an opposing manager as much as he needs to know about Frank's condition.
He also used Willie Harris instead of Magglio Ordonez who had just been activated before the game. It doesn't say as much as you try to make it out to say.

Dadawg_77
07-12-2004, 10:04 PM
He also used Willie Harris instead of Magglio Ordonez who had just been activated before the game. It doesn't say as much as you try to make it out to say.
I read it as both Frank and Mags weren't ready. Mags didn't do an usual minor league start to get his timing right, which indicated to me Frank was hurt and the Sox were scrambling to fill the hole Frank would leave.

RKMeibalane
07-12-2004, 10:05 PM
I read it as both Frank and Mags weren't ready. Mags didn't do an usual minor league start to get his timing right, which indicated to me Frank was hurt and the Sox were scrambling to fill the hole Frank would leave.
That was my impression, as well. I'm still concerned that Maggs might hurt himself because he came back too soon. As I said last week, the acitivation of Ordonez from the DL was a desperate move by a desperate organization. I just hope it doesn't bite them in the ass.

soxfanforlife28
07-12-2004, 10:44 PM
Frank Thomas has done alot for this team. ANd its a shame that the media and anyone else has to poke fist at the big hurt. U dont see anyone pointin there fist at sammy sosa do ya? Big franks has done alot for are sox. And wont take that away from him. Hes hurt so we gotta go after someone whos potential enough to put up his numbers. Plain and simple.

RKMeibalane
07-12-2004, 10:49 PM
Frank Thomas has done alot for this team. ANd its a shame that the media and anyone else has to poke fist at the big hurt. U dont see anyone pointin there fist at sammy sosa do ya? Big franks has done alot for are sox. And wont take that away from him. Hes hurt so we gotta go after someone whos potential enough to put up his numbers. Plain and simple.
Welcome aboard!

voodoochile
07-12-2004, 10:52 PM
Frank Thomas has done alot for this team. ANd its a shame that the media and anyone else has to poke fist at the big hurt. U dont see anyone pointin there fist at sammy sosa do ya? Big franks has done alot for are sox. And wont take that away from him. Hes hurt so we gotta go after someone whos potential enough to put up his numbers. Plain and simple.
Welcome aboard! :D: and um... your signature is too big, could you find something else under 15KB in size?

RKMeibalane
07-12-2004, 11:01 PM
Welcome aboard! :D: and um... your signature is too big, could you find something else under 15KB in size?

:b&b

"Uhh... huh... huh... he said 'big.'"