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Lip Man 1
07-10-2004, 02:07 AM
Right now speculation is rampant about Frank's injury, the diagnosis, how long he'll be out, will he need surgery and will he be back this season (and if so will he be able to contribute anything close to his normal production...)

Allow me to inject a potential factor that I haven't seen listed for discussion purposes. I'm not giving an opinion here because I can't. I can't speak for Frank and certainly don't know how much pain a person can take, that's an individual issue.

I'm also not praising or condemning Frank one way or another should this come into play.

Here goes....

For most of his career the 'perception' about Frank (and one that has some truth to it) is that he is very stat conscious, sometimes, according to some, to the detriment of the Sox.

If that's true we all know how Frank wants 500 home runs. He feels (again with some truth ) that it will validate his career and ensure his Hall Of Fame selection.

Therefore knowing what could be at stake, would he risk that possibility over trying to rush back this year and perhaps injure himself worse? Injure himself to where his career might be over? Remember he's 35, who knows how much time he has left anyway. Plus how much money he might stand to lose if he hurts himself to the point where his career is in jeopardy.

And remember his contract situation. He's a free agent next season if he wants to be. Would he risk getting an offer from someone else other then the Sox by playing for (if he had surgery next week) a month?

Maybe he won't risk more injury by coming back and trying to gut it out, I don't know but he's in an interesting and difficult spot.

If he tries to play and hurts himself again his career could be over. If he doesn't play, some fans and media will brand him as being a baby and not being willing to risk all to help the Sox get to the playoffs. (and who knows what chances they'd have even if they get there...)

I don't envy Frank in this one. There are a lot of things involved in this that go beyond being able to play.

Lip

Basten
07-10-2004, 02:15 AM
Right now speculation is rampant about Frank's injury, the diagnosis, how long he'll be out, will he need surgery and will he be back this season (and if so will he be able to contribute anything close to his normal production...)

Allow me to inject a potential factor that I haven't seen listed for discussion purposes. I'm not giving an opinion here because I can't. I can't speak for Frank and certainly don't know how much pain a person can take, that's an individual issue.

I'm also not praising or condemning Frank one way or another should this come into play.

Here goes....

For most of his career the 'perception' about Frank (and one that has some truth to it) is that he is very stat conscious, sometimes, according to some, to the detriment of the Sox.

If that's true we all know how Frank wants 500 home runs. He feels (again with some truth ) that it will validate his career and ensure his Hall Of Fame selection.

Therefore knowing what could be at stake, would he risk that possibility over trying to rush back this year and perhaps injure himself worse? Injure himself to where his career might be over? Remember he's 35, who knows how much time he has left anyway. Plus how much money he might stand to lose if he hurts himself to the point where his career is in jeopardy.

And remember his contract situation. He's a free agent next season if he wants to be. Would he risk getting an offer from someone else other then the Sox by playing for (if he had surgery next week) a month?

Maybe he won't risk more injury by coming back and trying to gut it out, I don't know but he's in an interesting and difficult spot.

If he tries to play and hurts himself again his career could be over. If he doesn't play, some fans and media will brand him as being a baby and not being willing to risk all to help the Sox get to the playoffs. (and who knows what chances they'd have even if they get there...)

I don't envy Frank in this one. There are a lot of things involved in this that go beyond being able to play.

LipThis isn't the type of an injury that can end his career. He is a DH - as long as the sirgery is mildly successful, he'll hit again.

All he needs to worry about is keeping that batspeed, never his strenght to begin with, at Edgar Martinez/Raphael Palmeiro-ian (talking pre-2004 here obviously) levels, and with his batting eye and patience, he'll be a 30HR/900+ OPS hitter until he is 40.

He just turned 36. If he gives the Sox 2 more "Frank" years after this season, then it's all good.

Lip Man 1
07-10-2004, 02:16 AM
In the Tribune's recap story on the game and Thomas situation, Dave Van Dyke quoted this from Ozzie: "We tried to keep him to pinch-hit or whatever," Guillen said. "Frank told me he can't play."

Again not condemming Frank he knows his own body but this may be a clue to where this is leading.

Lip

IA_soxfan
07-10-2004, 02:17 AM
Right now speculation is rampant about Frank's injury, the diagnosis, how long he'll be out, will he need surgery and will he be back this season (and if so will he be able to contribute anything close to his normal production...)

Allow me to inject a potential factor that I haven't seen listed for discussion purposes. I'm not giving an opinion here because I can't. I can't speak for Frank and certainly don't know how much pain a person can take, that's an individual issue.

I'm also not praising or condemning Frank one way or another should this come into play.

Here goes....

For most of his career the 'perception' about Frank (and one that has some truth to it) is that he is very stat conscious, sometimes, according to some, to the detriment of the Sox.

If that's true we all know how Frank wants 500 home runs. He feels (again with some truth ) that it will validate his career and ensure his Hall Of Fame selection.

Therefore knowing what could be at stake, would he risk that possibility over trying to rush back this year and perhaps injure himself worse? Injure himself to where his career might be over? Remember he's 35, who knows how much time he has left anyway. Plus how much money he might stand to lose if he hurts himself to the point where his career is in jeopardy.

And remember his contract situation. He's a free agent next season if he wants to be. Would he risk getting an offer from someone else other then the Sox by playing for (if he had surgery next week) a month?

Maybe he won't risk more injury by coming back and trying to gut it out, I don't know but he's in an interesting and difficult spot.

If he tries to play and hurts himself again his career could be over. If he doesn't play, some fans and media will brand him as being a baby and not being willing to risk all to help the Sox get to the playoffs. (and who knows what chances they'd have even if they get there...)

I don't envy Frank in this one. There are a lot of things involved in this that go beyond being able to play.

Lip
We are talking about some small bone fragments in his foot here, and I think speculating that this injury could evolve into something career threatening is a bit far fetched.

Cubbiesuck13
07-10-2004, 02:26 AM
Interesting point, but remember he has never won in the postseason and i would like to think that would help solidify his status as one of the games best hitters. There is the stigma that a player cannot be elite if he has not won a championship. It is accross all sports and prolly baseball is the least affected by this, however. Another factor is that 500 hrs may not be enough for him to be a lock by the time he is up for the HOF. With his other stats, IMO he will be. Winning a WS is almost a must if he wants to be talked about with the greats, I am assuming he wants to be if he is so big on stats.

If he is able to play I think he will. He has been called many things in his career but never a team player. I would imagine that this could help that, if that is able to be helped at this point. Perhaps if he was in boston he could change that. Manny had a big piece about him in SI being a loveable guy now. and playing the a's the announcers for ESPN were drooling over him because he high fived some fans on his way to the dugout after hitting a bomb.

pearso66
07-10-2004, 02:30 AM
well from what I've heard here, Frank has always shown appreciation towards the fans. And we all know that as frank goes, so do the Sox. He may be one of the few "non" team players where his contributions actually do help the team. I've never seen someone who's hot and cold streaks can be noticed by how the team is playing also.

owensmouth
07-10-2004, 03:02 AM
Those of us who are Sox fans have, much like Frank, had to live with the writers critisizing the Big Hurt. He's not a team player. He's always unhappy with his contract. He won't talk to the writers.

This past winter the local jerks were looking foreward to the day that Frank would arrive at spring training and immediately start fighting with Ozzie.

Now we can be sure that the Moron and his ilk will try and tell us that Frank is malingering. I'll say it in advance: they can go to hell!

Frank is a big guy, almost 300 lbs. When he swings he pushes off the right foot and puts his weight on his injured ankle, it must be terribly painful. Then he has to try and run on it.

An athlete wants to compete, and Frank is a great athlete.

An injured athlete must take the time to recover. I am worried that he may not be able to return until the end of the season. He will return as soon as he possibly can.

gosox41
07-10-2004, 03:31 AM
In the Tribune's recap story on the game and Thomas situation, Dave Van Dyke quoted this from Ozzie: "We tried to keep him to pinch-hit or whatever," Guillen said. "Frank told me he can't play."

Again not condemming Frank he knows his own body but this may be a clue to where this is leading.

Lip
I'm guessing that Frank has tried to play with the pain over the last week or 2 and ahs been unable to do so. He says it hurts too much. I don't doubt him at all. Nor do I think his surgery is serious enough to end his career.


Bob

Lip Man 1
07-10-2004, 03:49 AM
The question is what if he hurts it again in September?

Remember the story said he got hurt in Miami then reinjured it in Minnesota three weeks later. It sounds like it could be a chronic issue.

Given the timing of another possible injury it doesn't give him much time to recover before his free agent window kicks in.

I'm mearly saying that with all the factors involved and all the potential money at stake it could cause him to think twice about trying certain things.

And if he did I can't say that I could blame him.

Lip

Mickster
07-10-2004, 10:08 AM
Frank will exercise his option for 2005. There is absolutely no team in MLB that will offer him what his 2005 option is worth. No chance. He will be a member of the Sox at least through 2005.

idseer
07-10-2004, 10:35 AM
I'm guessing that Frank has tried to play with the pain over the last week or 2 and ahs been unable to do so. He says it hurts too much. I don't doubt him at all. Nor do I think his surgery is serious enough to end his career.


Bob
i'd kind of like to see an apology from everyone out there who bashed oz for only pinch hitting frank against the cubs.

jabrch
07-10-2004, 10:37 AM
Frank will exercise his option for 2005. There is absolutely no team in MLB that will offer him what his 2005 option is worth. No chance. He will be a member of the Sox at least through 2005.
The FOFs will tell you otherwise. There are those who see Frank's numbers and say that someone would surely give him what he is worth instead of letting the sox rob him blind. Now I don't agree - I think his option 8mm next year and 10mm the following season, are top dollar for him. I don't see an AL team paying him more than that to DH - and with as little as he has played the field in the recent past, I don't see him in the NL.

I like Frank - but I agree with you - he is here for 2 more years for sure. And just to be clear, I do think that's a good thing on the field - provided he is healthy and we have the salary structure available to us to surround him with the right pieces.

jabrch
07-10-2004, 10:38 AM
i'd kind of like to see an apology from everyone out there who bashed oz for only pinch hitting frank against the cubs. Ozzie is dumb. KW has a personal vendetta against Frank. That's why he doesn't play the field.

pearso66
07-10-2004, 10:42 AM
The FOFs will tell you otherwise. There are those who see Frank's numbers and say that someone would surely give him what he is worth instead of letting the sox rob him blind. Now I don't agree - I think his option 8mm next year and 10mm the following season, are top dollar for him. I don't see an AL team paying him more than that to DH - and with as little as he has played the field in the recent past, I don't see him in the NL.

I like Frank - but I agree with you - he is here for 2 more years for sure. And just to be clear, I do think that's a good thing on the field - provided he is healthy and we have the salary structure available to us to surround him with the right pieces.
I'm a FOF, but I agree, he is getting paid top dollar. For a guy who is 36, isnt hitting .300 anymore, and has been injured a few times since 2000. That being said, if KW pisses him off enough, he may not take it. then I wonder if JR exercises the team option.

jabrch
07-10-2004, 10:47 AM
I'm a FOF, but I agree, he is getting paid top dollar. For a guy who is 36, isnt hitting .300 anymore, and has been injured a few times since 2000. That being said, if KW pisses him off enough, he may not take it. then I wonder if JR exercises the team option.
The team option is 11 and then 12 (with a 3.5mm buyout). If Frank turns down 8 in this offseason, he is gone. There is no way we give him 11. It just won't happen. Even the most diehard FOFs would have to agree that this team can spend 11mm more efficiently than Frank.

pearso66
07-10-2004, 10:49 AM
The team option is 11 and then 12 (with a 3.5mm buyout). If Frank turns down 8 in this offseason, he is gone. There is no way we give him 11. It just won't happen. Even the most diehard FOFs would have to agree that this team can spend 11mm more efficiently than Frank.
I agree that he isnt worth 11. I dont think maggs is worth 11. heck i dont think anyone is. But JR loves Frank, and I think would do anything to keep him around. KW initiated the diminished skills clause, but JR made him resign him.

jabrch
07-10-2004, 10:54 AM
I agree that he isnt worth 11. I dont think maggs is worth 11. heck i dont think anyone is. But JR loves Frank, and I think would do anything to keep him around. KW initiated the diminished skills clause, but JR made him resign him.
(someone please correct me if I am wrong on this)
Well...in invoking the DSC, it left the team owing Frank a big chunk of deferred money, if he chose to not opt for FA - which he chose not to do. So we already owed Frank money. Frank wanted to play, so they "tore up" his DSC contract and wrote the new dual option deal - that would give him the sum of his deferred money from the DSC deal over time, at a minimum, via his options, but also gave him a chance to earn more - if the team took their options on him, or to be a FA - if he declined his option and the team did also. So its not like this arrangement wasn't very beneficial for both Frank and the team...