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Lip Man 1
07-10-2004, 01:06 AM
Dave Van Dyke's Tribune story on Thomas. From the description Williams seems pissed off about something.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040709soxside,1,1048875.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Lip

Win1ForMe
07-10-2004, 01:15 AM
I don't understand. Why not just have the surgery right away? Seems like they're pessimistic about this rest/treatment from the start.

maggliofan10
07-10-2004, 01:22 AM
because he may be able to wait until the end of the season to have the surgery if the pain isn't bad enough

doublem23
07-10-2004, 04:18 AM
because he may be able to wait until the end of the season to have the surgery if the pain isn't bad enough
I hope that's the case. We all saw what happened to the offense without Maggs; we can't afford to lose a better bat from that line-up. If Frank really needs to go on the shelf for a while, we will be in desperate need of some power. Carlos Lee and Paul Konerko just don't do it for me.

Nard
07-10-2004, 04:54 AM
They should do it first thing tomorrow morning. Perfect timing with the break coming up, and a blessing in disguise with Frank not having to play in any of the events.

The more waiting, the worse it's going to get until he's going to end up getting the surgery anyway.

Just pray the recovery isn't longer. Bone spurs are the biggest pain in the ass sports injury you can ever have.

Five days before the season opener, Keon Clark for the Jazz here chipped a spur in his ankle. They gave him a cortizone shot which worked for about four days, then it started hurting again. He waited, and waited, and waited. Finally, about three weeks later, he had the surgery. The expected return time was same as Frank's, six weeks.

He didn't play for the rest of the season. Never recovered. Bone spurs are some serious ****.

But of course, these are very different sports.

mantis1212
07-10-2004, 01:12 PM
I don't understand. Why not just have the surgery right away? Seems like they're pessimistic about this rest/treatment from the start.
They need to put him under the knife NOW. Even if he feels a little better in a couple weeks, he won't be 100% for the rest of the year. If surgery is performed now, we could see Frank come back in a big way in September- oh yeah and maybe OCTOBER- did anyone think of that??

Lip Man 1
07-10-2004, 01:22 PM
Again that's why this is so strange. Maybe Frank does not want suregery, after all its his ankle.

But this doesn't make sense, read the papers today and just about every story hints that surgery is inevitible.

Lip

OzzieBall
07-10-2004, 01:28 PM
Seems to me they all hint that surgery is inevitable because of Frank's tendency to not play unless he is "at his optimum" according to the Cubune and other media who dislike Frank.

Hopefully, he takes the surgery and gets better for September. I think we can hold of the Twins till he gets back. Its a shame because Frank is having such a great year.

The other thing is that Van Dyck says Frank ways close to 300 pounds. Espn player profile says 275..maybe he is bigger than that?

mantis1212
07-10-2004, 01:32 PM
The other thing is that Van Dyck says Frank ways close to 300 pounds. Espn player profile says 275..maybe he is bigger than that?
He's no 3 bills- just an exaggeration to stress the pressure on his foot. I just have to say this again- have the surgery NOW. If we are truly going for it all this year, a healthy Frank in Sept and Oct is essential. We can lose Frank for six weeks starting now and still be a game or two back starting Sept. We'd be in good shape then.

RKMeibalane
07-10-2004, 02:06 PM
They need to put him under the knife NOW. Even if he feels a little better in a couple weeks, he won't be 100% for the rest of the year. If surgery is performed now, we could see Frank come back in a big way in September- oh yeah and maybe OCTOBER- did anyone think of that??
If Frank Thomas misses an extended period of time, the Sox won't be playing in October. You can take that to the bank.

flo-B-flo
07-10-2004, 02:07 PM
Jeez, why doesn't he want the surgery now? This is the best scenerio so he is at his best for the stretch run. Frank do it now!

RKMeibalane
07-10-2004, 02:09 PM
Seems to me they all hint that surgery is inevitable because of Frank's tendency to not play unless he is "at his optimum" according to the Cubune and other media who dislike Frank.

Hopefully, he takes the surgery and gets better for September. I think we can hold of the Twins till he gets back. Its a shame because Frank is having such a great year.

The other thing is that Van Dyck says Frank ways close to 300 pounds. Espn player profile says 275..maybe he is bigger than that?
Thomas weighs no more than 275-280 lbs. The media are nothing more than a collection of can't-hack-it *******. The next time a member of the Chicago media says something intelligent will be the first.

npdempse
07-10-2004, 02:20 PM
We all saw what happened to the offense without Maggs; we can't afford to lose a better bat from that line-up.
We all saw what happened without Maggs and with a very diminished Thomas in the lineup. With a healthy Maggs, hot bats from Lee and Konerko, we're very much in contention, even without Thomas for a quarter of the season.

Deadguy
07-10-2004, 03:36 PM
I agree with those who say the surgery should be done ASAP. What exactly is rest going to accomplish with this particular injury? It just seems like they are delaying the inevitable with respects to surgery, unless they think that by giving Thomas rest, they can delay until after the season.

However, I don't want to see Thomas in the lineup if he's hurt. It's noble of players to try and play through pain (Shawn Green, Jeff Bagwell, etc.), but if it hurts their production to the point that they are actually hurting the team, then it seems counterproductive. I'd rather see a healthy Borchard or a trade for Everett, than see Thomas out for 3 weeks, and then limping out the rest of them season adding little power and just a few walks. It makes much more sense to see Thomas out for 6 weeks, and then return 100% for the stretch drive.

Jjav829
07-10-2004, 03:46 PM
I agree with those who say the surgery should be done ASAP. What exactly is rest going to accomplish with this particular injury? It just seems like they are delaying the inevitable with respects to surgery, unless they think that by giving Thomas rest, they can delay until after the season.

However, I don't want to see Thomas in the lineup if he's hurt. It's noble of players to try and play through pain (Shawn Green, Jeff Bagwell, etc.), but if it hurts their production to the point that they are actually hurting the team, then it seems counterproductive. I'd rather see a healthy Borchard or a trade for Everett, than see Thomas out for 3 weeks, and then limping out the rest of them season adding little power and just a few walks. It makes much more sense to see Thomas out for 6 weeks, and then return 100% for the stretch drive.
But there's no guarantee that 6 weeks is the maximum and that's why they are holding off. If the recovery doesn't go well, there's a chance he misses the rest of the season. That's why they are holding off on this. If Frank can rest for 3 weeks and come back then we get him for the rest of the season. If he goes and has the surgery and it takes him longer to recover, he could be out for the rest of the season. It's a risk either way. There is no sure way to go. You have the surgery now, you risk him not recovering in time to play again this year. If you sit him for 3 weeks, you risk that he still needs the surgery which may mean he's out for 9 weeks total or still possibly the whole season. I guess they feel the first option is the safer choice.

beckett21
07-10-2004, 03:56 PM
Allow me to chime in here...


Ideally it would be nice for Frank to just go ahead with the surgery right now. But there is just no guarantee that if he were to have surgery right now that he would be back up to snuff in 4 to 6 weeks.

Surgery is invasive, and the full healing time for foot and ankle surgery is realistically 8-12 weeks. So he would be able to potentially play in 4 weeks, but he may still continue to have pain secondary to the surgery for 12 weeks or more. Again, it's not magic. It is still the human body.

There is absolutely no guarantee that he would feel any better for this season after surgery. Add in the fact that he has had surgery on the area before, the full healing process is probably longer still than if it were a *fresh* injury. Granted he may heal quickly, but I wouldn't guarantee it nor would you find any doctor willing to *guarantee* it either. Timelines are estimates; nothing is absolute.

I can clearly see a benefit in waiting if at all possible, as far as this season is concerned. That said, the brace and rest may not work and he may need the surgery anyway, which is everyone's fear. Long term, the surgery will make a difference--after a few months. He is better off if he can rest for a longer time after surgery to allow the injury to fully heal, rather than have it immediately, rush back before it has time to heal properly, and aggravate things more. Like in the offseason.

Either way, it's a crapshoot folks. The situation pretty much sucks any way you slice it.

beckett21
07-10-2004, 03:57 PM
But there's no guarantee that 6 weeks is the maximum and that's why they are holding off. If the recovery doesn't go well, there's a chance he misses the rest of the season. That's why they are holding off on this. If Frank can rest for 3 weeks and come back then we get him for the rest of the season. If he goes and has the surgery and it takes him longer to recover, he could be out for the rest of the season. It's a risk either way. There is no sure way to go. You have the surgery now, you risk him not recovering in time to play again this year. If you sit him for 3 weeks, you risk that he still needs the surgery which may mean he's out for 9 weeks total or still possibly the whole season. I guess they feel the first option is the safer choice.Were you spying on my post? :redneck

Well said and correct.

South Side
07-10-2004, 03:57 PM
It's amazing how many doctors there are on this board.

beckett21
07-10-2004, 03:59 PM
It's amazing how many doctors there are on this board.Not sure if you were being sarcastic or not.

I am one, and a foot and ankle specialist as a matter of fact.

doublem23
07-10-2004, 04:03 PM
It's amazing how many doctors there are on this board.Not sure if you were being sarcastic or not.

I am one, and a foot and ankle specialist as a matter of fact.

:)

Talk about your all-time backfires.

Deadguy
07-10-2004, 04:03 PM
I am one, and a foot and ankle specialist as a matter of fact.
Thanks for the insight, it really clears up some confusion on my part (and this is sincere, as my cursor is no where near the option of turning the color of this text into teal).

TornLabrum
07-10-2004, 04:07 PM
:)

Talk about your all-time backfires.
"Well, I'm Marshall McLuhan, and you don't know what you're talking about."--Marshall McLuhan in "Annie Hall"

beckett21
07-10-2004, 04:16 PM
Thanks for the insight, it really clears up some confusion on my part (and this is sincere, as my cursor is no where near the option of turning the color of this text into teal).No problem. I never intended to broadcast it to the world, but now that the cat is out of the proverbial bag, so be it.

As I have said before, though, the only people who REALLY know what's going on would be the Sox medical staff and Frank. Since I have no access to his medical records, it is unfair of me to give an armchair diagnosis without ever having examined him. But I have treated many patients with similar conditions, and performed surgery on said conditions as well, so all I can do is go by my personal clinical experience. I'll be the first one to tell you to take it with a grain of salt. In my opinion though they are handling the situation appropriately.


But remember, as is becoming my favorite disclaimer, *no guarantees!* :)

A.T. Money
07-10-2004, 04:31 PM
Dave Van Dyke's Tribune story on Thomas. From the description Williams seems pissed off about something.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040709soxside,1,1048875.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Lip
Oh my God!

LIP POSTED A LINK!!!!

Jjav829
07-10-2004, 04:49 PM
Were you spying on my post? :redneck

Well said and correct.Well I'm no doctor but I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.

I'll bow aside to your expertise. :smile:

mealfred13
07-10-2004, 04:56 PM
Well I'm no doctor but I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.

I'll bow aside to your expertise. :smile:
:wink: But seriously. According to an article on the Sox official homepage, if Frank needs surgery, it's season-ending surgery. So rather than ending his season now, they've given him a special brace to wear to take pressure off the foot, and he'll be put on the DL for a couple weeks, at which point he'll attempt to play. If the rest lets his foot heal a bit to take some of the pain away, he may be able to tough it out until the end of the season, at which point he will almost certainly need surgery anyway.

Now I'm no expert, but to the best of my knowledge bone spurs and the like don't just go away, especially when unresponsive to cortisone shots. So I don't know if this rest period is really going to do anything to avoid the inevitable. Maybe Dr. Beckett could help me with that?

bigfoot
07-10-2004, 09:41 PM
Two words, regarding Frank's bad ankle: Carlos Delgado!!

duke of dorwood
07-10-2004, 09:55 PM
Could be worse, could be a position player

But we are screwed without him in the line-up

TornLabrum
07-10-2004, 10:49 PM
Well I'm no doctor but I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.

I'll bow aside to your expertise. :smile:
For those of us who are a little older, "I'm not a doctor, but I do play one on television."

South Side
07-10-2004, 11:05 PM
Not sure if you were being sarcastic or not.

I am one, and a foot and ankle specialist as a matter of fact.
I was being sarcastic but I wasn't actually referring to you. I will take your comments seriously. Anyone else a doctor? If there's only one then my comment still stands. :tongue:

beckett21
07-12-2004, 02:32 AM
:wink: But seriously. According to an article on the Sox official homepage, if Frank needs surgery, it's season-ending surgery. So rather than ending his season now, they've given him a special brace to wear to take pressure off the foot, and he'll be put on the DL for a couple weeks, at which point he'll attempt to play. If the rest lets his foot heal a bit to take some of the pain away, he may be able to tough it out until the end of the season, at which point he will almost certainly need surgery anyway.

Now I'm no expert, but to the best of my knowledge bone spurs and the like don't just go away, especially when unresponsive to cortisone shots. So I don't know if this rest period is really going to do anything to avoid the inevitable. Maybe Dr. Beckett could help me with that?mealfred13,

You are absolutely right. All that the cortisone shot is going to possibly do is reduce some of the inflammation within the ankle joint and hopefully ease some of the discomfort. At this point, surgery is basically inevitable. It is more of a question of how urgent the situation is in terms of surgery.

It is concievable that the cortisone combined with some rest and adequate bracing could keep the pain at bay to allow Frank to finish the season. The only way to get rid of bone spurs in a case like this is surgically, either arthroscopically or by opening the ankle joint up through a large incision. Unfortunately, if he were to undergo surgery now I would venture to guess (and again this would only be a guess) that he would be out for at least two months, quite possibly the balance of the season. It could be a little less than that, give or take a few weeks, but it would be significant.

Bone spurs are basically part and parcel to arthritis, and without examining him myself I would imagine that they are restricting the range of motion of his ankle joint. Along with that *jamming* of his ankle joint would be pain. One could play with bone spurs in the sense that they are not like a torn ligament; the ankle will still function to a degree, albeit painfully. However nothing will *dissolve* the spurs; they will be there until they are removed. My understanding of his previous surgery is that a bone spur the size of a walnut or golf ball was removed from the front of his ankle; no amount of cortisone in the world can overcome something like that. It just depends upon how bad the situation is right now whether or not the cortisone can provide him with enough pain relief to get by. No matter what, he will need surgery. The question is when. And while surgery will remove the spurs, the damage to the cartilage within the ankle joint is irreversible so he is still going to most likely have some measure of residual pain after surgery.

Unfortunately, there is no great answer here. The Sox seem to be hoping that they can keep him comfortable and get him through the season, because like I said before surgery can help but it is a question of how much, how soon. For example, hypothetically if his pain level now is 9 out of 10 (10 being worst), maybe surgery can reduce that pain to a 4 or 5 out of 10, or 50% better. To think that he would be pain free after surgery would be wishful thinking. Again this is purely speculative on my part, because obviously I am not his doctor. But to get back to your original point, I would agree that if the surgery were not season-ending, it would effectively be pretty darn close. And yes, surgery seems to be inevitable, if not now, soon. :(: (Hopefully after the season.)

beckett21
07-12-2004, 02:39 AM
Well I'm no doctor but I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.

I'll bow aside to your expertise. :smile::)

In all seriousness, not all injuries are created equal so I am speculating to a degree just as much as anyone else. I just happen to have a little more *experience* on my side. But on the surface, this doesn't sound too promising. Have to wait and see I guess, but with or without surgery this is going to hamper him all season long.

This one could go either way, really. Only time will tell. All we can do is hope for the best. (See how noncommittal I am? If that doesn't PROVE I am a doctor, I don't know what will! :D: )

Mohoney
07-12-2004, 02:54 AM
One thing baffles me about this whole thing.

Why was the injury listed as "Tendinitis" on the scoreboard at the Cell on Saturday? Does he have tendinitis in addition to the bone flakes/spurs/fragmentation/whatever other words different media types have used?

TommyJohn
07-12-2004, 05:23 AM
:)

In all seriousness, not all injuries are created equal so I am speculating to a degree just as much as anyone else. I just happen to have a little more *experience* on my side. But on the surface, this doesn't sound too promising. Have to wait and see I guess, but with or without surgery this is going to hamper him all season long.

This one could go either way, really. Only time will tell. All we can do is hope for the best. (See how noncommittal I am? If that doesn't PROVE I am a doctor, I don't know what will! :D: )
You're a doctor? That's impossible. I have read and listened to the Chicago
media, and according to them White Sox fans are all a bunch of ignorant
low life slobs who can barely read and love to jump coaches and start fights.
So how is it that you're a doctor? :redneck :redneck :redneck :redneck

beckett21
07-12-2004, 10:26 AM
One thing baffles me about this whole thing.

Why was the injury listed as "Tendinitis" on the scoreboard at the Cell on Saturday? Does he have tendinitis in addition to the bone flakes/spurs/fragmentation/whatever other words different media types have used?It would be possible to have both. If he did tweak his ankle he could have some tendonitis as well, or he could develop tendonitis secondary to the bone spurs.

It may just be that it is a more convenient term to use, since *bone spurs* is not a medical term, and if they called it *arthritis* it would sound wimpy, perhaps? Could just be the *official* term that they are using. I don't know.

beckett21
07-12-2004, 10:30 AM
You're a doctor? That's impossible. I have read and listened to the Chicago
media, and according to them White Sox fans are all a bunch of ignorant
low life slobs who can barely read and love to jump coaches and start fights.
So how is it that you're a doctor? :redneck :redneck :redneck :redneck Don't worry, I'm still an ignorant slob! :redneck

You know what they call the guy who finishes last in his class in medical school? Doctor! :bandance:

not that I would know anything about that... :)