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View Full Version : Frank out up to six weeks!!!!!! (Link)


OzzieBall2004
07-08-2004, 05:59 PM
Just read this...doesnt sound good....

MLB.com article on Frank (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20040708&content_id=792765&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp)

the_valenstache
07-08-2004, 06:11 PM
Time to get Beltran!

mcfish
07-08-2004, 06:12 PM
Thanks not good news. Hopefully Maggs comes back in a big way.

maggliofan10
07-08-2004, 06:18 PM
that's what i'm hoping

pudge
07-08-2004, 06:22 PM
Interesting that Frank must decide to play with the pain or not... Since Frank tends to be a :whiner: I'm guessing he'll opt for surgery. Now we need a bat and another pitcher... we can't take six more weeks without a key slugger.

Aidan
07-08-2004, 06:25 PM
Interesting that Frank must decide to play with the pain or not... Since Frank tends to be a :whiner: I'm guessing he'll opt for surgery. Now we need a bat and another pitcher... we can't take six more weeks without a key slugger.Time for the Joe Borchard experiment. He can play RF, DH, and some CF.

maggliofan10
07-08-2004, 06:25 PM
they just said the same thing as the article on nbc's news at 5. may have to have to have surgery if his ankle doesn't respond to the shot.

Kadafi311
07-08-2004, 06:26 PM
Interesting that Frank must decide to play with the pain or not... Since Frank tends to be a :whiner: I'm guessing he'll opt for surgery. Now we need a bat and another pitcher... we can't take six more weeks without a key slugger.
Well, if how Frank's hit over the past two weeks is any indication of how he "plays with pain"... I'd rather he opt for the surgery.

Flight #24
07-08-2004, 06:27 PM
Interesting that Frank must decide to play with the pain or not... Since Frank tends to be a :whiner: I'm guessing he'll opt for surgery. Now we need a bat and another pitcher... we can't take six more weeks without a key slugger.
Based on what - the golf ball they had to take out of his ankle before? Oh, you must mean the torn tricep muscle. Yeah, he's a wuss and sits with questionable injuries.

Frank's an ex-football player, and he's only ever sat out with fairly serious injuries.

Dr. Wells - is that you? Shouldn't you be preparing for your next start?

FarWestChicago
07-08-2004, 06:40 PM
Since Frank tends to be a :whiner: I'm guessing he'll opt for surgery.Whoa, we have an early, very strong contender for the Most Idiotic Post of the Night. This one will be tough to beat. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

pudge
07-08-2004, 06:50 PM
Whoa, we have an early, very strong contender for the Most Idiotic Post of the Night. This one will be tough to beat. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
You mean I finally won something?? :bandance:

depy48
07-08-2004, 07:45 PM
if frank truly is out for 6 weeks, i think that it would be a wise move to bring up borchard play him in right and let maggs DH. that way maggs wont reinjury his knee running for fly balls and we can see if borchard is worthy of not being a mariner right now.

jabrch
07-08-2004, 07:58 PM
Whoa, we have an early, very strong contender for the Most Idiotic Post of the Night. This one will be tough to beat. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Aren't we due for a "the garcia trade sucked because Olivo is an all-star 5 tool catcher and Reed is a .400 obp CF and KW is a moron" post? That ought to take the cake - every time.

SoxBoy14
07-08-2004, 08:17 PM
I don't think Frank can take more surgery with out having his game get even worse. Remember how he was last time he had surgery? I'm praying that the shot they give him heals up his ankle enough for him to play on it.

idseer
07-08-2004, 09:10 PM
I don't think Frank can take more surgery with out having his game get even worse. Remember how he was last time he had surgery? I'm praying that the shot they give him heals up his ankle enough for him to play on it.
i think there's a big difference between a torn tricep recovery and a top of the foot recovery.

this team SHOULD be good enough to win without him. at worst we'll hang close enough to the twins until he's back. barring further injuries i think we're still a lock for the division.

SoxFan76
07-08-2004, 09:21 PM
Interesting that Frank must decide to play with the pain or not... Since Frank tends to be a :whiner: I'm guessing he'll opt for surgery. Now we need a bat and another pitcher... we can't take six more weeks without a key slugger.
That is BS. I'm sure you have already got blasted for that comment, but I didn't read the other posts. So here I go.

The man is a former football player, he is 270 pounds, he is not a wuss. If he's hurt, he's hurt. If playing with pain means that Frank goes into a huge slump and loses 30 points on his batting average, then by all means call him a puss. I bet it is KILLING him right now that he has to sit out. How many times has Frank been seriously hurt in his career? I can only remember twice. And even this DL stint isn't bad. He tore his tricep. That requires sitting out, sorry. That doesn't make him a crybaby.

Frater Perdurabo
07-08-2004, 09:30 PM
If Frank is out for any extended period of time, it's major lemons. But all they can do is make the best of it and make lemonade.

While Frank is out, Maggs should DH. Call up Borchard to start in right field.

CF: Rowand/Timo platoon, backed up by Harris
2B: Harris/Uribe platoon
SS: Valentin starts, backed up by Uribe
C: Alomar/Burke platoon

RF, DH, 1B, LF and 3B are set. While there clearly are too many platoon situations for my comfort level, especially since they all are "up the middle," Ozzie will just have to make do. With the stong starting rotation, I'm optimistic this team should be OK until either Frank returns or they add Jason Kendall or Steve Finley via trade.

Lip Man 1
07-08-2004, 10:04 PM
After reading the story I have two comments:

1. People are saying it's an ankle problem (including the media) yet in the story Thomas points to the top of his left foot as the problem area. Doesn't sound like an ankle to me. can someone explain this discrepency?

2. Did you notice the line in the story stating that the injury appeared to be more serious then was originally diagonsed?

Is this another example of bad medical advice by the Sox staff a la Cal Eldred's 'forearm strain,' and Ordonez's 'strained muscle.'

Excuse me I think I'm going to be sick. Friggin' Sox luck.

Lip

Elvisfan1977
07-08-2004, 10:09 PM
Interesting that Frank must decide to play with the pain or not... Since Frank tends to be a :whiner: I'm guessing he'll opt for surgery. Now we need a bat and another pitcher... we can't take six more weeks without a key slugger.
Do us all a favor and stick to reading the posts. I bet you think Mariotti's a fair and balanced journalist too. Maybe if you'd look at Frank's stats over his ENTIRE career, which spans 15 years, you'd look at this situation a little more optimistically. Besides, there's no crying in baseball.

CallMeNuts
07-08-2004, 10:13 PM
Frank is a lot of fun to watch hit when he is hot, but:
- In the long-run, I'd rather see his salary get re-allocated to pitching.
- I'd rather see the Sox rotate the DH position among position players to give them a partial day off. Konerko, Valentine, Lee and Ordoňez (while mending) should all see DH time. (and Uribe if he ever hits again.) Borchard would also fit in nicely in this system. And all of these guys have a place in the line-up when we are playing inter-league games in an NL park and away games in the World Series.
- Let's see how this works with Frank gone for six weeks. And then see what kind of a salary dump deal we can make to make it permanent.

California Sox
07-08-2004, 10:29 PM
Frank is a lot of fun to watch hit when he is hot, but:
- In the long-run, I'd rather see his salary get re-allocated to pitching.
- Let's see how this works with Frank gone for six weeks. And then see what kind of a salary dump deal we can make to make it permanent.
I wouldn't close the "idiotic post of the night" balloting quite yet.

Frank is by far the best offensive player in Sox history. Only one of the top five season's in team history belongs to anyone but Frank (Belle). I love Maggs but Frank is capable of leading the league in OBP and OPS, you're not going to see anyone else in this lineup (including Maggs) approaching that. And Frank is relatively cheap!

As long as there is a DH in the AL, you might as well have a good one, and you could argue that Frank is the best. The last two games we've been treated to Gload and Burke in Frank's stead. That is one hell of a dropoff. I agree that Borchard should be called up, but I would be very surprised if Borchard's best season in his entire career approaches an average Frank Thomas season. This is a terrible loss.

rmusacch
07-08-2004, 10:40 PM
Just read this...doesnt sound good....

MLB.com article on Frank (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20040708&content_id=792765&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp)
IF he is going to be out for any significant period of time, put him on the DL now. Do not wait a week like they did with Magglio.

Mohoney
07-08-2004, 10:58 PM
That is BS. I'm sure you have already got blasted for that comment, but I didn't read the other posts. So here I go.

The man is a former football player, he is 270 pounds, he is not a wuss. If he's hurt, he's hurt. If playing with pain means that Frank goes into a huge slump and loses 30 points on his batting average, then by all means call him a puss. I bet it is KILLING him right now that he has to sit out. How many times has Frank been seriously hurt in his career? I can only remember twice. And even this DL stint isn't bad. He tore his tricep. That requires sitting out, sorry. That doesn't make him a crybaby.


Actually, I think he came back too soon from the torn triceps. Most players that suffer a complete tear would probably be shelved the entire next season as well. In my opinion, it was obvious that his 2002 power outage was a result of coming back too soon and not having enough strength, which seemed to lower his bat speed.

Still, I would LOVE for this shot remedy to work. If he's not in pain, maybe the ankle will have minimal effect on his swing.

Otherwise, if Frank's out for as prolonged a stretch as Maggs has been, we need to beef up the offense. I say Jason Kendall and Steve Finley would look real good in Sox uniforms right now. Plus, when Frank does come back, our offense would be that much better for the playoffs.

PutItOnTheBoard
07-08-2004, 11:05 PM
IF he is going to be out for any significant period of time, put him on the DL now. Do not wait a week like they did with Magglio.
That doesn't matter; as long as he doesn't enter a game in any fashion, they can always place him on the DL retroactively to the last game in which he played, thus shortening his stint.

CallMeNuts
07-08-2004, 11:13 PM
As long as there is a DH in the AL, you might as well have a good one, and you could argue that Frank is the best. OK. Frank has been the best DH. But take his $6MIL, add Schoeneweis' $1.7MIL, and you are pretty close to the $9MIL it took to extend Garcia. As long as there is a Pitcher in baseball, I'll spend my money on the rotation before I spend dollar one on a DH. Give us the right rotation and we have plenty of offense on this team.

Daver
07-08-2004, 11:32 PM
OK. Frank has been the best DH. But take his $6MIL, add Schoeneweis' $1.7MIL, and you are pretty close to the $9MIL it took to extend Garcia. As long as there is a Pitcher in baseball, I'll spend my money on the rotation before I spend dollar one on a DH. Give us the right rotation and we have plenty of offense on this team.
Frank is the best offensive player on the team.

Who replaces what he brings to the table?

RichFitztightly
07-08-2004, 11:34 PM
That doesn't matter; as long as he doesn't enter a game in any fashion, they can always place him on the DL retroactively to the last game in which he played, thus shortening his stint.
But the problem with that is the Sox can't bring up another player while Frank is on the active roster. Essentially, they'll get an extra player if Frank is put on the DL right away.

RKMeibalane
07-08-2004, 11:52 PM
Interesting that Frank must decide to play with the pain or not... Since Frank tends to be a :whiner: I'm guessing he'll opt for surgery. Now we need a bat and another pitcher... we can't take six more weeks without a key slugger.
Uncalled for. If an athlete says he hurt, then he is hurt. Frank has played through pain before. He played most of the 1999 season with a bone spur the size of a golf-ball in his ankle. The podiartrist who removed it said that he shouldn't have played at all that season.

And while we're on the subject, an ankle injury is not something to take lightly. Look at Grant Hill. People initially questioned the extent of his injury in 2000. Now, there is doubt as to whether he will ever be healthy enough to play again. Let's see how this situation plays out before calling Frank a baby.

RKMeibalane
07-08-2004, 11:53 PM
Frank is the best offensive player on the team.

Who replaces what he brings to the table?
(teal)

:hitless

RKMeibalane
07-08-2004, 11:55 PM
OK. Frank has been the best DH. But take his $6MIL, add Schoeneweis' $1.7MIL, and you are pretty close to the $9MIL it took to extend Garcia. As long as there is a Pitcher in baseball, I'll spend my money on the rotation before I spend dollar one on a DH. Give us the right rotation and we have plenty of offense on this team.
Baloney. Frank Thomas is one of the best hitters in baseball history. At $6 million, he's a bargain. You're telling me you would rather use that money to sign another pitcher. What happens to the Sox offense if Frank isn't around. They've already proven that they can't score runs without him in the lineup. That's why the Cubs managed to sweep them. How do you replace the offense that he provides?

RKMeibalane
07-08-2004, 11:58 PM
Frank is a lot of fun to watch hit when he is hot, but:
- In the long-run, I'd rather see his salary get re-allocated to pitching.
- I'd rather see the Sox rotate the DH position among position players to give them a partial day off. Konerko, Valentine, Lee and Ordoňez (while mending) should all see DH time. (and Uribe if he ever hits again.) Borchard would also fit in nicely in this system. And all of these guys have a place in the line-up when we are playing inter-league games in an NL park and away games in the World Series.
- Let's see how this works with Frank gone for six weeks. And then see what kind of a salary dump deal we can make to make it permanent.
We need a tag for posts that are 100% bull****. I'm getting tired of reading this nonsense. When someone can come up with an explanation as to how the Sox can replace Frank Thomas' offensive production, I'll listen. Until then...

Shaddup!

beckett21
07-09-2004, 12:28 AM
After reading the story I have two comments:

1. People are saying it's an ankle problem (including the media) yet in the story Thomas points to the top of his left foot as the problem area. Doesn't sound like an ankle to me. can someone explain this discrepency?

2. Did you notice the line in the story stating that the injury appeared to be more serious then was originally diagonsed?

Is this another example of bad medical advice by the Sox staff a la Cal Eldred's 'forearm strain,' and Ordonez's 'strained muscle.'

Excuse me I think I'm going to be sick. Friggin' Sox luck.

LipLip,

(1) The talus is the *ankle bone* that is in the foot. It is a foot bone which articulates with the tibia and fibula to comprise the ankle joint. It is covered in cartilage and is often injured in ankle sprains, and frequently goes undiagnosed. People sometimes refer to it as the foot or *top of the foot* to describe where they experience pain. More semantics there.

It's not a conspiracy. :D:

(2) See my posts in the other thread. Totally unfair to call out the medical staff on this one IMO. Misguided anger.

Let's hope he makes a speedy recovery and is able to ride out the balance of the year.

JorgeFabregas
07-09-2004, 12:31 AM
Agreed. He is only making a few mil. per year. As far as seasoned veterans go, he is one of the best bargains in baseball imo.

We need a tag for posts that are 100% bull****. I'm getting tired of reading this nonsense. When someone can come up with an explanation as to how the Sox can replace Frank Thomas' offensive production, I'll listen. Until then...

Shaddup!

DSpivack
07-09-2004, 01:10 AM
Frank's "All-Star numbers" are very misleading this year. Many casual baseball fans look and "all" they see is .271, 18 HRs, 49 RBIs. Look at his other numbers, though, and they truly stand out.
-His OBP of .434 ranks 5th in MLB and 2nd in the AL
-His SLG % of .563 ranks 15th in MLB and 5th in the AL
-His OPS of .997 ranks 11th in MLB and 2nd in the AL

If you're into "Sabermetrics", which I am not but am curious about,

-His RC, 60.2, ranks 28th in MLB
-His RC/27, 9.03, is 9th in MLB
-His IsoP, .292, is 9th in MLB [two behind Jose]
-His SecA, .550, ranks 5th in MLB
-His BB/PA, .206, is 3rd in MLB

Other thoughts from perusing his stats this year: his BA [.271 versus .308] may be more thban 30 points lower than his career, but his OBP .434 to .429] is pretty much the same as his career as is his SLG [.563 to .567] and finally as is his OPS [.997 to .996].

Vernam
07-09-2004, 01:12 AM
if frank truly is out for 6 weeks, i think that it would be a wise move to bring up borchard play him in right and let maggs DH. that way maggs wont reinjury his knee running for fly balls and we can see if borchard is worthy of not being a mariner right now.I tend to agree, but KW's modus operandi is to shield the hot prospects from actual big-league exposure, evidently for fear their trade value would drop if they tank against MLB competition. IMO, that's what he did w/ Reed. Borchard's perceived value plummeted after he got sent back to the farm last year, and he's only recently -- w/ the departure of Reed, somewhat coincidentally! -- become the can't-miss kid again. If he does get the call, it might mean KW's done w/ major deals for now.

Vernam

Lip Man 1
07-09-2004, 01:41 PM
Beck:

If there are any doctors out there I appreciate what you do and can't even begin to fathom how difficult it is to do what you do.

However as a reporter I've got to ask how then can you explain the seemingly endless confusion on White Sox injuries?

The list gets longer and longer.....Eldred's misdiagnosis, Sirotka's misdiagnosis and charges, the misreading of his MRI, Ordonez's misdiagnosis, and now a claim by a writer who works for White Sox.com that "the injury was worse then first diagnosed..."

These are the best doctors in the world?

Again I mean no personal offense but come on.....how many times is a 'forearm strain' going to morph into a cracked elbow? or a strained hamstring into a torn miniscus (sorry about the spelling...) What's next...a twisted knee into a brain tumor?

If my personal physician was as wrong as these Sox doctors seem to have been since 2000 that I'd sure as hell get a new doctor.

I think it's significant to note that Ken Williams spent a portion of his time during the off season after 2000 telling fans and the media that Sox doctors were thorough, professional and competent. Obviously he wasn't going to be doing that if I was the only person questioning things. Other people were wondering what the hell is going on.

It just seems to me that Sox injuries never seem to be 'cut and dried,' they never seem to be 'clear cut.' Maybe all professional athletic injuries are that way and I've never noticed because I don't follow what other MLB are doing but I cover Idaho State University for example and they never seem to have any trouble telling the press exactly what happened to one of their football or basketball players.

These injuries can't possibly be as hard to figure out as the Sox seem to be making it. If something is torn, it's torn... or it isn't, there is no in between.

Lip

pudge
07-09-2004, 01:51 PM
That is BS. I'm sure you have already got blasted for that comment, but I didn't read the other posts. So here I go.


Yeah, yeah I expected this, and believe it or not I'm a huge Frank fan, but I simply think he's one of those guys who can't play with pain and looses a lot of his focus... I'm not saying playing with pain is easy, but there are guys who can do it and guys who can't. But ya know what, we're about to find out, because it sounds like they are going to try the cortisone shots... that has me concerned, because Frank is a big guy who puts a lot of pressure on his foot while swinging. If he manages to finish the season and continue to put up solid numbers while dealing with pain, I will gladly eat crow.

steff
07-09-2004, 01:59 PM
(teal)

:hitless


OMG.. you just about gave me a heart attack there. :o:

steff
07-09-2004, 01:59 PM
Yeah, yeah I expected this, and believe it or not I'm a huge Frank fan, but I simply think he's one of those guys who can't play with pain and looses a lot of his focus... I'm not saying playing with pain is easy, but there are guys who can do it and guys who can't. But ya know what, we're about to find out, because it sounds like they are going to try the cortisone shots... that has me concerned, because Frank is a big guy who puts a lot of pressure on his foot while swinging. If he manages to finish the season and continue to put up solid numbers while dealing with pain, I will gladly eat crow.


How do you know when he's played in pain or not...?

harwar
07-09-2004, 02:19 PM
The list gets longer and longer.....Eldred's misdiagnosis, Sirotka's misdiagnosis and charges, the misreading of his MRI, Ordonez's misdiagnosis, and now a claim by a writer who works for White Sox.com that "the injury was worse then first diagnosed..."

Lip
As for the MRIs',i had a military surgeon tell me a couple of years a go that reading an MRI is like looking at a painting at an art show,everyone may see something different.

Lip Man 1
07-09-2004, 02:23 PM
Steff:

I caught part of the Rockies / Giants game from a few days ago and Clayton came up to bat. I about died when they showed his batting average at .296!!!

Lip

Dadawg_77
07-09-2004, 02:27 PM
Frank is a lot of fun to watch hit when he is hot, but:
- In the long-run, I'd rather see his salary get re-allocated to pitching.
- I'd rather see the Sox rotate the DH position among position players to give them a partial day off. Konerko, Valentine, Lee and Ordoňez (while mending) should all see DH time. (and Uribe if he ever hits again.) Borchard would also fit in nicely in this system. And all of these guys have a place in the line-up when we are playing inter-league games in an NL park and away games in the World Series.
- Let's see how this works with Frank gone for six weeks. And then see what kind of a salary dump deal we can make to make it permanent.
You're Nuts. For 8 or 10 million you can not add what Frank brings to this team next year. For what ever ****ed up fantasy Kenny Williams had when he wanted Frank to decline his option last year, the Sox would take a major hit if Frank left.

Dadawg_77
07-09-2004, 02:30 PM
Yeah, yeah I expected this, and believe it or not I'm a huge Frank fan, but I simply think he's one of those guys who can't play with pain and looses a lot of his focus... I'm not saying playing with pain is easy, but there are guys who can do it and guys who can't. But ya know what, we're about to find out, because it sounds like they are going to try the cortisone shots... that has me concerned, because Frank is a big guy who puts a lot of pressure on his foot while swinging. If he manages to finish the season and continue to put up solid numbers while dealing with pain, I will gladly eat crow.
You are dead wrong. For all the "whinning" Frank does about contract issues, he doesn't do it about playing. The 1999 bone spur story is very telling on this issue. He gutted that out, even though front office and teammates were questioning where or not he could stay play. He had it removed and we all saw what happen in 2000.

Deadguy
07-09-2004, 02:39 PM
Frank is a lot of fun to watch hit when he is hot, but:
- In the long-run, I'd rather see his salary get re-allocated to pitching.
- I'd rather see the Sox rotate the DH position among position players to give them a partial day off. Konerko, Valentine, Lee and Ordoňez (while mending) should all see DH time. (and Uribe if he ever hits again.) Borchard would also fit in nicely in this system. And all of these guys have a place in the line-up when we are playing inter-league games in an NL park and away games in the World Series.
- Let's see how this works with Frank gone for six weeks. And then see what kind of a salary dump deal we can make to make it permanent.
Oh please. Frank is #2 in the league in OPS. This, despite the fact that he has been in a 3 week slump due to this injury. The only guy in the league that can do what he can do with the bat is Ramirez, and he is making 14 million dollars more. Guys like Mike Sweeney (11 million), Carlos Delgado (18 million dollars), Jason Giambi (17 million), Shawn Green ( 16 million), etc. Do you honestly think these guys deserve to make that much more because of what they do in the field?

Deadguy
07-09-2004, 02:45 PM
Frank's "All-Star numbers" are very misleading this year. Many casual baseball fans look and "all" they see is .271, 18 HRs, 49 RBIs. Look at his other numbers, though, and they truly stand out.
-His OBP of .434 ranks 5th in MLB and 2nd in the AL
-His SLG % of .563 ranks 15th in MLB and 5th in the AL
-His OPS of .997 ranks 11th in MLB and 2nd in the AL

If you're into "Sabermetrics", which I am not but am curious about,

-His RC, 60.2, ranks 28th in MLB
-His RC/27, 9.03, is 9th in MLB
-His IsoP, .292, is 9th in MLB [two behind Jose]
-His SecA, .550, ranks 5th in MLB
-His BB/PA, .206, is 3rd in MLB

Other thoughts from perusing his stats this year: his BA [.271 versus .308] may be more thban 30 points lower than his career, but his OBP .434 to .429] is pretty much the same as his career as is his SLG [.563 to .567] and finally as is his OPS [.997 to .996].
Since when are any of these stats, "poor"? Being 2nd in the league in OPS is nothing to be ashamed of, especially if the guy has been injured for 3 weeks. Before the injury, he was first in the league, with an OPS around 1.100.

Flight #24
07-09-2004, 03:12 PM
Beck:

If there are any doctors out there I appreciate what you do and can't even begin to fathom how difficult it is to do what you do.

However as a reporter I've got to ask how then can you explain the seemingly endless confusion on White Sox injuries?

The list gets longer and longer.....Eldred's misdiagnosis, Sirotka's misdiagnosis and charges, the misreading of his MRI, Ordonez's misdiagnosis, and now a claim by a writer who works for White Sox.com that "the injury was worse then first diagnosed..."

These are the best doctors in the world?

Again I mean no personal offense but come on.....how many times is a 'forearm strain' going to morph into a cracked elbow? or a strained hamstring into a torn miniscus (sorry about the spelling...) What's next...a twisted knee into a brain tumor?

If my personal physician was as wrong as these Sox doctors seem to have been since 2000 that I'd sure as hell get a new doctor.

I think it's significant to note that Ken Williams spent a portion of his time during the off season after 2000 telling fans and the media that Sox doctors were thorough, professional and competent. Obviously he wasn't going to be doing that if I was the only person questioning things. Other people were wondering what the hell is going on.

It just seems to me that Sox injuries never seem to be 'cut and dried,' they never seem to be 'clear cut.' Maybe all professional athletic injuries are that way and I've never noticed because I don't follow what other MLB are doing but I cover Idaho State University for example and they never seem to have any trouble telling the press exactly what happened to one of their football or basketball players.

These injuries can't possibly be as hard to figure out as the Sox seem to be making it. If something is torn, it's torn... or it isn't, there is no in between.

Lip
Lip, I'm not a doctor (nor do I play one on TV), but I don't believe that this type of "misdiagnosis" or changing of diagnoses is that uncommon across teams. I think the problem is that non-invasive methods of assessing things are often inconclusive, so the dr has to make a judgement call or guess. In general, these guesses seem to be on the lighter side because if you err on that side and are wrong, you can always subsequently undergo the more serious treatment, but if you err on the other side and opt for surgery, you can't go back if you find out things aren't as bad as you thought.

Just my .02 from a non-medical prespective.

mrzerofan
07-09-2004, 03:15 PM
I guess it could be the time for Crazy Carl to return!

steff
07-09-2004, 05:23 PM
Steff:

I caught part of the Rockies / Giants game from a few days ago and Clayton came up to bat. I about died when they showed his batting average at .296!!!

Lip


I was in the back yard and Jim actually recorded it to show me when I came in(Lord I LOVE Tivo!!!). And I could not believe it either. But aint it par for the course.. couldn't hit his way out of a wet paper bag while here. Must have loosened his corn rows. :rolleyes:

Mohoney
07-09-2004, 05:27 PM
Frank is the best offensive player on the team.

Who replaces what he brings to the table?

Nobody. If he's shelved for 6+ weeks, we need to trade for some lethal bats to offset the huge OPS and power losses. For one guy to contribute both, and to lose him, will definitely hurt.

Even if he's not shelved and comes back after the All Star break, it still wouldn't hurt to add a good contact hitter like Jason Kendall for the last 3 months.

Frater Perdurabo
07-09-2004, 09:32 PM
Nobody. If he's shelved for 6+ weeks, we need to trade for some lethal bats to offset the huge OPS and power losses. For one guy to contribute both, and to lose him, will definitely hurt.

Even if he's not shelved and comes back after the All Star break, it still wouldn't hurt to add a good contact hitter like Jason Kendall for the last 3 months.
Yes the Sox will miss Frank. The historical record of this team shows that the offense is much worse when Frank is gone. However, they shouldn't completely mortage the future just to try to replace Frank. The Sox have been given lemons, they just have to make lemonade.

That being said a trade for Kendall would be excellent as he could come close to replacing Frank's OBP at an even more important defenisve position, and could lead off or bat second, where the Sox offense needs the most help at present with Uribe and Harris cooling off during the last month. Furthermore, when Frank returns there would not be a logjam with Kendall on the roster. Furthermore, given his contract Pittsburgh shouldn't ask too much in return for Kendall (although they have been hot for the last two weeks). All it would take is opening the wallet, something Kenny already has persuaded Jerry to do once this year.

Lip Man 1
07-09-2004, 09:36 PM
Flight:
Then wouldn't it be better to say nothing until they know for sure? (i.e. 'We don't have anything specific at this time, when we do, we will provide the information to the media...')

Lip

Flight #24
07-09-2004, 09:50 PM
Flight:
Then wouldn't it be better to say nothing until they know for sure? (i.e. 'We don't have anything specific at this time, when we do, we will provide the information to the media...')

Lip
That's unrelated to their medical skills. And as I recall, what they usually say is something to the effect of "preliminary diagnosis", or "initial examination indicates".

I'm sure if they were to say nothing, there'd be a ton of complaints about that (see how people reacted when Frank was out for a few days over the weekend). So they say what they know, and people are unhappy with that. They can't win.

But back to the main point - it's not an indication that their medical staff is somehow subpar.

Lip Man 1
07-09-2004, 10:01 PM
Flight:

Then all these inconsistencies that I brought up (facts by the way, not pulled out of thin air...) are par for the course?

Somehow when dealing with highly skilled, highly trained specialists who devote years studying and learning their trade, that doesn't sound right.

On a side note, I spoke with a media friend today about all this and he had an interesting point on what's going on with the Cubs medical staff:

"The Cubs' medical staff has been taking a beating in the press and on the radio for getting things wrong the first time......I'm wondering if the Sox have gotten a pass with their issues, because either Herm Schneider is so well respected or it's the Sox and not enough people care.........

I sometimes think they just honestly don't know ...... that, even with medical advancements, it's still a guessing game........... like weather forecasting in Chicago..........

All I know is they said Maggs would be out 4-7 weeks and it was six.... at least they got that right......... But you make excellent points."

Lip

Flight #24
07-09-2004, 10:36 PM
Flight:

Then all these inconsistencies that I brought up (facts by the way, not pulled out of thin air...) are par for the course?

Somehow when dealing with highly skilled, highly trained specialists who devote years studying and learning their trade, that doesn't sound right.

On a side note, I spoke with a media friend today about all this and he had an interesting point on what's going on with the Cubs medical staff:

"The Cubs' medical staff has been taking a beating in the press and on the radio for getting things wrong the first time......I'm wondering if the Sox have gotten a pass with their issues, because either Herm Schneider is so well respected or it's the Sox and not enough people care.........

I sometimes think they just honestly don't know ...... that, even with medical advancements, it's still a guessing game........... like weather forecasting in Chicago..........

All I know is they said Maggs would be out 4-7 weeks and it was six.... at least they got that right......... But you make excellent points."

Lip

Lip: My take (and again, I'm not a dr, but I have many friends & family in the field) is that diagnosis of sports injuries is a highly subjective and inconclusive thing. MRIs are hard to read, physical exams can be difficult to get conclusive evidence from due to inflammation that often accompanies these injuries). So the underlying diagnoses are often based on piecing together a few different circumstantial things and then using the patient's symptoms to arrive at a final diagnosis (i.e. how much does it hurt to do different things). That I believe is par for the course.

2 ancillary points:

1) It's my guess that drs tend to give the benefit of the doubt towards the player being able to play (when it's not clear one way or the other), or towards non-surgical attempts to cure the problem (rest, then shots). That's because they're not 100% sure, so they try things that might resolve the issue and do so quickly, figuring that they can always resort to surgery later, but if they operate first and it's not as serious, they player's still out for a while.

2) What the team reports - Whether it's better to report what you know or to wait until you know something more definite is up for debate, I'd bet you find lots of people on each side. Especially given that things are so inconclusive and so the wait could be a while.

pudge
07-09-2004, 11:47 PM
How do you know when he's played in pain or not...?
Um, they just said he's been playing in pain since his injury. And his numbers during that stint have been awesome!

Dadawg_77
07-10-2004, 08:23 AM
Does anyone remember Danny Wright not trusting the Sox doctors this offseason. Danny thought he was hurt and visited several doctors outside the team docs. Each one said he wasn't hurt, but as it turns out he was. So this problem is just confined to the Sox docs. But is a problem and we are seeing again, is Thomas may not trust the Sox team docs. The Sox team docs maybe saying he fine with a little reast thus management read Kenny Williams then thinks Frank should be playing. Problem is Frank is hurting and he doesn't trust the Sox docs so he will need at least a second opinion.

Flight #24
07-10-2004, 08:38 AM
Does anyone remember Danny Wright not trusting the Sox doctors this offseason. Danny thought he was hurt and visited several doctors outside the team docs. Each one said he wasn't hurt, but as it turns out he was. So this problem is just confined to the Sox docs. But is a problem and we are seeing again, is Thomas may not trust the Sox team docs. The Sox team docs maybe saying he fine with a little reast thus management read Kenny Williams then thinks Frank should be playing. Problem is Frank is hurting and he doesn't trust the Sox docs so he will need at least a second opinion.
So not only are Sox docs subpar, so are the "others" that Danny went to see.....seems to indicate that it's not necessarily that cut and dry to diagnose things.

IIRC, they also had Danny visit the acknowledged "top guy" Jobe/Andrews, no? Apparently they also are subpar.

Not trusting the team docs can be as simple as "it hurts more and I think it's more serious than they say". It's pretty hard to use one or even 2 examples as a trend. Especially when there are a lot more cases where the players don't go seek outside opinions on their own.

Dadawg_77
07-12-2004, 12:51 AM
So not only are Sox docs subpar, so are the "others" that Danny went to see.....seems to indicate that it's not necessarily that cut and dry to diagnose things.

IIRC, they also had Danny visit the acknowledged "top guy" Jobe/Andrews, no? Apparently they also are subpar.

Not trusting the team docs can be as simple as "it hurts more and I think it's more serious than they say". It's pretty hard to use one or even 2 examples as a trend. Especially when there are a lot more cases where the players don't go seek outside opinions on their own.
I wasn't saying the Docs were bad, what I was saying was there might not be good level of trust between the players and the docs. I am not sure on that, just mentioning it because I would think it would be hard to have a good medical relationship if there isn't trust.