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munchman33
07-08-2004, 12:32 AM
I just saw on the ESPN Sportsticker that Frank won't be playing tomorrow because of his ankle. Explains why he didn't play today.

This is not good.

munchman33
07-08-2004, 12:33 AM
My bad there's already a thread on this. Mod can you move?

milrtyme28
07-08-2004, 12:33 AM
hopefully this is not a repeat of the bone spur issue from a few years ago :(:

StillMissOzzie
07-08-2004, 02:31 AM
During the game I heard mention of a cortisone shot for inflammation in his ankle.

SMO

Iguana775
07-08-2004, 08:19 AM
If he is going to be out for a while BRING UP BORCHARD RIGHT DAMN NOW!!!!

RKMeibalane
07-08-2004, 11:20 AM
If he is going to be out for a while BRING UP BORCHARD RIGHT DAMN NOW!!!!
At last report, Thomas was said to be day-to-day, just like the rest of us.

hawkjt
07-08-2004, 12:42 PM
Evidently Hurt told offman of the score he may go on the DL. Crap- he was having a very solid season til the ankle thing cropped back up. This is crisis mgt time for Ozzie. He will earn his keep til after all-star break to keep us in touch.

joeynach
07-08-2004, 12:53 PM
I was just listening and Chris Boden said on a sportscenter update Frank might be out for awhile since his foot has not responded to the cortozone shot. He said frank is experienceing bone movement or spurs in his foot and its not certain yet if this will require a dl stint and possible surgery. However they did say that as a precaution they put Maggs rehab at AAA on hold for if they need to call him to DH this weekend with Frank being hurt. Not good news, we just cant buy a freaking break.

hawkjt
07-08-2004, 12:55 PM
Offman from the Score just reported that A. Frank could go to the DL if cortisone shot does not take. He also could undergo arthro on ankle by the weekend to clean out bone chips in ankle. B. If Frank goes to DL then Maggs is activated tomorrow and DH's against Seattle.


We are so screwed if Frank is out for 6-8 weeks. Killer.

Tekijawa
07-08-2004, 12:58 PM
[QUOTE=hawkjt]If Frank goes to DL then Maggs is activated tomorrow and DH's against Seattle. [QUOTE]

Why Maggs? What's wrong with Jamie Burke?

Iguana775
07-08-2004, 01:01 PM
Offman from the Score just reported that A. Frank could go to the DL if cortisone shot does not take. He also could undergo arthro on ankle by the weekend to clean out bone chips in ankle. B. If Frank goes to DL then Maggs is activated tomorrow and DH's against Seattle.


We are so screwed if Frank is out for 6-8 weeks. Killer.
LTP better be on the first plain to ChiTown if Frank goes on the DL. I am gettign pissed he is not on the sox yet. But Gload is obvious better!

joeynach
07-08-2004, 01:06 PM
Offman from the Score just reported that A. Frank could go to the DL if cortisone shot does not take. He also could undergo arthro on ankle by the weekend to clean out bone chips in ankle. B. If Frank goes to DL then Maggs is activated tomorrow and DH's against Seattle.


We are so screwed if Frank is out for 6-8 weeks. Killer.
The ankle did not respond to cortizone shot. This is a reoccuring injury he has had for some time now. He reaggravated it during practice. He has been on the DL with it before. It might recquire surgey and if it does do it now and get it over with. Dont wait 15 days then do surgery. Franks recover time should be simpler since all he does is DH.

Lip Man 1
07-08-2004, 01:15 PM
According to the newspapers today Thomas twisted the ankle about three weeks ago then re-injured it on the turf in Minnesota last week.

That could explain why his average was dropping the past three weeks.

I do want to make this point however... as valuable as Orodonez and Thomas have been and are as tremendous players, the Sox have had only one serious hurt (Maggs) that we know of as of this writing. Thomas is still speculation. Valentin and Schowenweis were gone for two weeks each, not that much missed time.

How come with only one major injury (again as of right now) that Sox have had so much trouble adjusting?

How many serious, key injuries have the Angels and Cubs had for example?????

What is killing the Sox is that they have very little productive depth. The Sporting News print edition this week had a story on 'teams with the best depth...' The Sox weren't even listed. That magazines top benches were in order...Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Dodgers, Phillies and Padres.

This was a problem that should have been addressed in the off season but wasn't.

I mean come on...Jamie Burke? Ross "Dr. Strangeglove" Gload???

Lip

OurBitchinMinny
07-08-2004, 01:18 PM
I just saw on the ESPN Sportsticker that Frank won't be playing tomorrow because of his ankle. Explains why he didn't play today.

This is not good.

Because he is really hitting the crap out of the ball right now

Mickster
07-08-2004, 01:23 PM
What is killing the Sox is that they have very little productive depth. The Sporting News print edition this week had a story on 'teams with the best depth...' The Sox weren't even listed. That magazines top benches were in order...Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Dodgers, Phillies and Padres.
Lip,

All teams you mention have payrolls exceeding $93M with the exception of the Padres.

Hokiesox
07-08-2004, 01:25 PM
Because he is really hitting the crap out of the ball right now
Ok, let's hit your ankle with a hammer until the bone chips and see how well you hit.

Lip Man 1
07-08-2004, 01:28 PM
Mickster:

If the shoe fits.....

All I'm saying is that there were a number of reasonably priced players available who could have increased depth and helped the club avoid this problem.

When one injury screws up the club that badly, what does that say?

Lip

samram
07-08-2004, 01:38 PM
According to the newspapers today Thomas twisted the ankle about three weeks ago then re-injured it on the turf in Minnesota last week.

That could explain why his average was dropping the past three weeks.

I do want to make this point however... as valuable as Orodonez and Thomas have been and are as tremendous players, the Sox have had only one serious hurt (Maggs) that we know of as of this writing. Thomas is still speculation. Valentin and Schowenweis were gone for two weeks each, not that much missed time.

How come with only one major injury (again as of right now) that Sox have had so much trouble adjusting?

How many serious, key injuries have the Angels and Cubs had for example?????

What is killing the Sox is that they have very little productive depth. The Sporting News print edition this week had a story on 'teams with the best depth...' The Sox weren't even listed. That magazines top benches were in order...Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Dodgers, Phillies and Padres.

This was a problem that should have been addressed in the off season but wasn't.

I mean come on...Jamie Burke? Ross "Dr. Strangeglove" Gload???

Lip
Remember that most of their troubles occurred in NL ballparks without both Frank and Maggs. I know they haven't done anything this week offensively, but they have done decently against the AL without Magglio. I think most teams would struggle if you took their two best hitters out of the lineup and replaced one with a pitcher. Also, Wille Harris' struggles have put a strain on the depth of the team because he is basically an automatic out, and having three catchers also doesn't help when none of them are even average offensively.

Gammons Peter
07-08-2004, 01:41 PM
Maggs could DH (according to shorty George)

Kuzman
07-08-2004, 01:43 PM
ESPN 1000 just said he may need season ending surgery if this cordizone shot doesnt work

harwar
07-08-2004, 01:50 PM
The ankle did not respond to cortizone shot. This is a reoccuring injury he has had for some time now. He reaggravated it during practice. He has been on the DL with it before. It might recquire surgey and if it does do it now and get it over with. Dont wait 15 days then do surgery. Franks recover time should be simpler since all he does is DH.
What worries me is that frank is so big,and he puts tremendous preesure on his ankles.I'm a big guy and it used to always take longer to recover when i got hurt,i don't know maybe its just me.

Brian26
07-08-2004, 02:44 PM
ESPN 1000 just said he may need season ending surgery if this cordizone shot doesnt work

Damnit. :angry:

RKMeibalane
07-08-2004, 02:52 PM
ESPN 1000 just said he may need season ending surgery if this cordizone shot doesnt work
That's it, then. If Frank Thomas goes down, that's a complete finish of whatever chance the Sox have of winning their division. The guys left over aren't good enough to get it done.

Good grief! This season is going down the toilet fast.

TornLabrum
07-08-2004, 02:55 PM
The only positive I see about this is that no one is saying that Frank is jaking it this time. Jerry Manuel was such an idiot....

RKMeibalane
07-08-2004, 02:56 PM
Because he is really hitting the crap out of the ball right now
Don't be ridiculous. There are twenty six weeks in a baseball season. You're using Frank's performance over the past two weeks as justification for saying that the Sox losing him isn't a big deal.

Well, I've got use for you: Frank Thomas is still this team's most dominant offensive player. As Frank goes, so go the Sox. If he is done for the year, then the Sox are finished, as well. They won't beat anyone without the Big Hurt in the middle of the lineup.

RKMeibalane
07-08-2004, 02:57 PM
The only positive I see about this is that no one is saying that Frank is jaking it this time. Jerry Manuel was such an idiot....
I wouldn't say that just yet. Someone is bound to open his mouth and criticize Frank for not toughing it out.

munchman33
07-08-2004, 03:04 PM
:bashbro

"If Frank goes down, there's always me!"

RKMeibalane
07-08-2004, 03:05 PM
:bashbro

"If Frank goes down, there's always me!"
:o:

cubhater
07-08-2004, 03:31 PM
That's it, then. If Frank Thomas goes down, that's a complete finish of whatever chance the Sox have of winning their division. The guys left over aren't good enough to get it done.

Good grief! This season is going down the toilet fast.
I have to agree with your assessment. We still have holes to fill and if Frank's gone for the season, I think we've seen the last of KW's big deals this year.
I pray this isn't the case.

kittle42
07-08-2004, 03:41 PM
We gawn.

jdm2662
07-08-2004, 03:49 PM
History shows, as Frank goes, so do the Sox. This isn't good.
________
NEON ENGINE (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Chrysler_Neon_engine)

sendimjoey
07-08-2004, 04:01 PM
Will Carroll, the Under the Knife (health and injuries) columnist for Baseball Prospectus had this to say about Thomas today: "With the White Sox sliding out of first, an injury to Frank Thomas could be a problem as they try to regroup. Thomas had a cortisone injection in his left ankle on Wednesday, which will keep him out until at least Friday. The ASB will help him grab some rest, but the injury shouldn't affect the DH much."

mantis1212
07-08-2004, 04:08 PM
Will Carroll, the Under the Knife (health and injuries) columnist for Baseball Prospectus had this to say about Thomas today: "With the White Sox sliding out of first, an injury to Frank Thomas could be a problem as they try to regroup. Thomas had a cortisone injection in his left ankle on Wednesday, which will keep him out until at least Friday. The ASB will help him grab some rest, but the injury shouldn't affect the DH much."
Let's hope Frank not going to Houston turns into a blessing in disguise.

RKMeibalane
07-08-2004, 04:10 PM
Let's hope Frank not going to Houston turns into a blessing in disguise.
I agree. As I said earlier, if Frank's gone, the Sox are finished.

Deadguy
07-08-2004, 04:23 PM
It would have been nice to see Frank get this taken care of three weeks ago, rather than trying to play through this injury, and having his numbers take a dive. Even if this would have been questioned by the media and fans about Thomas not being able to play through pain, having Frank risking being out the rest of the season just to have his name on the lineup card, is infinitely worse than just having him out for 3 weeks, even if it coincides with Magglio being out.

RKMeibalane
07-08-2004, 04:25 PM
It would have been nice to see Frank get this taken care of three weeks ago, rather than trying to play through this injury, and having his numbers take a dive. Even if this would have been questioned by the media and fans about Thomas not being able to play through pain, having Frank risking being out the rest of the season just to have his name on the lineup card, is infinitely worse than just having him out for 3 weeks, even if it coincides with Magglio being out.
For all we know, Frank might have wanted to take some time off to rest the injury, and some bonehead (Ozzie, KW, etc.) told him to suck it up and get back out there. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn that something like this actually happened. The Sox have one of the most screwed up organizations in baseball.

maggliofan10
07-08-2004, 04:27 PM
Yes they do. Probably have some of the worst managers ever too.

RKMeibalane
07-08-2004, 04:28 PM
Yes they do. Probably have some of the worst managers ever too.
Let's see here...

LaMont
Bevington
Manuel

I'd have to agree with you.

maggliofan10
07-08-2004, 04:33 PM
Ozzie seems to be trying to work himself onto that list at the moment

RKMeibalane
07-08-2004, 04:43 PM
According to the Sox official site, Frank could miss up to six weeks if he elects to have surgery now. There is strong possibility that he would, considering that the injury has affected his ability to plant his left foot. Because Thomas uses the Walt Hriniak stule of hitting, his left foot is the foot he plants with as he swings the bat. That's where his power comes from.

Lip Man 1
07-08-2004, 10:16 PM
To me the most important line in that story was the comment that 'the injury was worse then was originally diagnosed.'

The 'crack' Sox medical staff strikes again.

Lip

Brian26
07-08-2004, 10:38 PM
To me the most important line in that story was the comment that 'the injury was worse then was originally diagnosed.'

The 'crack' Sox medical staff strikes again.

Lip
Yeah, because Herm Schneider isn't one of the most respected trainers in the business.

beckett21
07-08-2004, 11:13 PM
To me the most important line in that story was the comment that 'the injury was worse then was originally diagnosed.'

The 'crack' Sox medical staff strikes again.

LipYou know what Lip, if medicine is so damn easy, there would be a helluva lot more (happy) doctors and a helluva lot less (happy and rich) malpractice lawyers.

I will do my best not to get personal here but give it a rest. Injuries do not always show their extent on initial presentation; this is IN NO WAY an indictment of Sox doctors and/or staff, and I personally take offense in their behalf at your insinuations.

As for the injury itself, I have not followed anything this week because my father is in town and between that and work this is the first I have heard about the injury at all. So I know very little (not that they would tell me anything anyway :redneck )

As far as the Sox telling Frank to *tough it out and play through it*: just wondering if some of you saying/thinking that are the same people who were bitching that he (a) was not in the lineup in interleague play in NL parks; and (b) say Frank belongs in the field more, playing 1B. Sound familiar to anyone? Or is it just easier to play armchair coach behind the computer? You tell me.

From my medical point of view, I don't know anything about the sprain of a few weeks ago, and what he may have done there. Never heard about it, guess I just missed it. Since I don't remember which ankle he had surgery on before, I am assuming it is the same one. Bone spurs in an ankle are indicative of a degenerative process--i.e. arthritis. His ankle is NEVER going to be pristine; never. Arthroscopic surgery in and of itself is no big deal, and I would put the timetable at 4-6 weeks personally, but again this depends upon the EXTENT of the damage. I would guess that he has an osteochondral injury of the ankle joint, which means damage to the cartilage, or a form of arthritis. By virtue of the bone spurs he had removed in the past, arthritis can be assumed. If they can clean out enough debris from the ankle to make him comfortable, I would assume he could play out the season. Not pain free, but perhaps tolerable. BUT again I do not know the extent of the damage and it would not be fair of me to render an opinion on his treatment and his ability to play without knowing more information.

Sorry I have not been able to follow this more closely, I will try to get up to speed next week and will try to follow what's going on. If I am able to clarify anything or give an educated opinion I would be happy to do so. But cracking on the medical staff and/or coaching staff to me is unfair and a cheap shot. I can assure you he is recieving the best of care. These injuries are chronic in nature, degenerative, and will ALWAYS bother Frank for the rest of his life, not to mention his career. So before anyone questions his heart, think twice.

samram
07-08-2004, 11:26 PM
You know what Lip, if medicine is so damn easy, there would be a helluva lot more (happy) doctors and a helluva lot less (happy and rich) malpractice lawyers.

I will do my best not to get personal here but give it a rest. Injuries do not always show their extent on initial presentation; this is IN NO WAY an indictment of Sox doctors and/or staff, and I personally take offense in their behalf at your insinuations.

As for the injury itself, I have not followed anything this week because my father is in town and between that and work this is the first I have heard about the injury at all. So I know very little (not that they would tell me anything anyway :redneck )

As far as the Sox telling Frank to *tough it out and play through it*: just wondering if some of you saying/thinking that are the same people who were bitching that he (a) was not in the lineup in interleague play in NL parks; and (b) say Frank belongs in the field more, playing 1B. Sound familiar to anyone? Or is it just easier to play armchair coach behind the computer? You tell me.

From my medical point of view, I don't know anything about the sprain of a few weeks ago, and what he may have done there. Never heard about it, guess I just missed it. Since I don't remember which ankle he had surgery on before, I am assuming it is the same one. Bone spurs in an ankle are indicative of a degenerative process--i.e. arthritis. His ankle is NEVER going to be pristine; never. Arthroscopic surgery in and of itself is no big deal, and I would put the timetable at 4-6 weeks personally, but again this depends upon the EXTENT of the damage. I would guess that he has an osteochondral injury of the ankle joint, which means damage to the cartilage, or a form of arthritis. By virtue of the bone spurs he had removed in the past, arthritis can be assumed. If they can clean out enough debris from the ankle to make him comfortable, I would assume he could play out the season. Not pain free, but perhaps tolerable. BUT again I do not know the extent of the damage and it would not be fair of me to render an opinion on his treatment and his ability to play without knowing more information.

Sorry I have not been able to follow this more closely, I will try to get up to speed next week and will try to follow what's going on. If I am able to clarify anything or give an educated opinion I would be happy to do so. But cracking on the medical staff and/or coaching staff to me is unfair and a cheap shot. I can assure you he is recieving the best of care. These injuries are chronic in nature, degenerative, and will ALWAYS bother Frank for the rest of his life, not to mention his career. So before anyone questions his heart, think twice.
Agreed 100%. Boscardin, Cuadros, Price, etc. are some of the best doctors in the country. Frank is in very good hands. Remember that this staff helped revive the careers of Bo Jackson and Ellis Burks.

beckett21
07-08-2004, 11:30 PM
Agreed 100%. Boscardin, Cuadros, Price, etc. are some of the best doctors in the country. Frank is in very good hands. Remember that this staff helped revive the careers of Bo Jackson and Ellis Burks.
Yup.

Anyone who thinks being a doctor is easy should try it for one day.

Add in the fact that you are working with a world-class athlete under the watchful eye of millions, and let's just say I'm glad I don't work under that kind of microscope with every would-be Marcus Welby giving their armchair diagnosis on something they know absolutely nothing about.

samram
07-08-2004, 11:39 PM
Yup.

Anyone who thinks being a doctor is easy should try it for one day.
No thanks. I've got doctors in the family and it's just too much damn stress. Although I have learned to not freak out when the phone rings at 3:30 AM.

RKMeibalane
07-08-2004, 11:42 PM
Yup.

Anyone who thinks being a doctor is easy should try it for one day.

Add in the fact that you are working with a world-class athlete under the watchful eye of millions, and let's just say I'm glad I don't work under that kind of microscope with every would-be Marcus Welby giving their armchair diagnosis on something they know absolutely nothing about.
I completely agree. As someone is working towards medical school, I think the wisest course of action in this situation is to just wait and see what happens. As Herm Schneider pointed out, the cortisone shot may take another day or two before it starts to work. If I remember correctly, they were going to wait until Friday before they decided what to do next. As you arthritis is a degenerative condition, so Frank will continue to have problems with the ankle for the remainder of his life- unless, of course, a more effective treatment for arthritis is found.

For the record, however, I do think a few people in the Sox front office (Williams, Guillen) probably could have been more forthcoming about the situation. Ozzie said in the paper that Frank's injury was the main reason he wasn't playing. I wish he had said something earlier, because a number of us (myself included) weren't happy that he didn't play Frank during the Cubs series. If I had known Frank's ankle was bothering him, I wouldn't have said anything. Perhaps Ozzie and KW decided that making Frank's injury public would have had a demoralizing effect on the ballclub. I don't know.

And, just so we're clear, my comment about Sox management telling Frank to "tough it out" was directed primarilly at Williams and Guillen. I rarely question the opinions of medical professionals in any field. I have far too much respect for what they do to crticize every move they make. Thanks!

beckett21
07-09-2004, 12:15 AM
I completely agree. As someone is working towards medical school, I think the wisest course of action in this situation is to just wait and see what happens. As Herm Schneider pointed out, the cortisone shot may take another day or two before it starts to work. If I remember correctly, they were going to wait until Friday before they decided what to do next. As you arthritis is a degenerative condition, so Frank will continue to have problems with the ankle for the remainder of his life- unless, of course, a more effective treatment for arthritis is found.

For the record, however, I do think a few people in the Sox front office (Williams, Guillen) probably could have been more forthcoming about the situation. Ozzie said in the paper that Frank's injury was the main reason he wasn't playing. I wish he had said something earlier, because a number of us (myself included) weren't happy that he didn't play Frank during the Cubs series. If I had known Frank's ankle was bothering him, I wouldn't have said anything. Perhaps Ozzie and KW decided that making Frank's injury public would have had a demoralizing effect on the ballclub. I don't know.

And, just so we're clear, my comment about Sox management telling Frank to "tough it out" was directed primarilly at Williams and Guillen. I rarely question the opinions of medical professionals in any field. I have far too much respect for what they do to crticize every move they make. Thanks!As a fan I understand your frustration. Like I said before, I never heard much about his last *sprain* or whatever that was, guess I was just not paying attention or not much was made of it. I vaguely remember it now, but it really didn't register with me until now.

Ozzie was lambasted day after day for not playing Frank, and no true explanation was given as to why he was not playing, it was just assumed it was because he was in an NL park. Ozzie doesn't need my help, he can take care of himself. But they probably just wanted to give the situation some time to see if it could resolve on it's own, and the interleague games were a perfect opportunity for Frank to get some obviously needed rest.

There is no need to report every ache and pain a player has to the media or to the public. This is not our right to know these things. They are private issues. No reason to make a mountain out of a molehill; most guys play in pain every day. I would be more likely to question the effort of a guy who has no pain!

I wasn't calling you out, per se, but you obviously picked up my drift. To me it is just unfair to criticize managament for not playing a guy, then once an injury is disclosed turn around and say that they were forcing him to play hurt. Makes no sense to me. But again I respect your views and feel your frustration. I appreciate the clarification, and agree that earlier disclosure would have been nice in this case. :smile: (FWIW I never thought that you questioned the docs, that part of my rant was not directed your way! :redneck ).

I personally am hesitant to render any type of opinion here as far as a prognosis for recovery because I have no facts to work from, don't know any of the x-ray/CT/MRI results, etc. and I can tell you that these injuries are very variable and unpredictable from one individual to another. If the injection provides some relief, he may be able to get by without surgery until the offseason. Or he may need a series of injections a'la Curt Schilling. The problem with multiple cortisone shots is that they only serve to mask pain, and they are not curative. Meaning that while he may feel better, he may actually be doing more long-term damage to his ankle.

Such is the sacrifice of a million-dollar athlete.

Good luck with your studies....it is well worth the effort! :)

Lip Man 1
07-09-2004, 01:38 PM
Gang:

If there are any doctors out there I appreciate what you do and can't even begin to fathom how difficult it is to do what you do.

However as a reporter I've got to ask how then can you explain the seemingly endless confusion on White Sox injuries?

The list gets longer and longer.....Eldred's misdiagnosis, Sirotka's misdiagnosis and charges, the misreading of his MRI, Ordonez's misdiagnosis, and now a claim by a writer who works for White Sox.com that "the injury was worse then first diagnosed..."

These are the best doctors in the world?

Again I mean no personal offense but come on.....how many times is a 'forearm strain' going to morph into a cracked elbow? or a strained hamstring into a torn miniscus (sorry about the spelling...) What's next...a twisted knee into a brain tumor?

If my personal physician was as wrong as these Sox doctors seem to have been since 2000 that I'd sure as hell get a new doctor.

I think it's significant to note that Ken Williams spent a portion of his time during the off season after 2000 telling fans and the media that Sox doctors were thorough, professional and competent. Obviously he wasn't going to be doing that if I was the only person questioning things. Other people were wondering what the hell is going on.

It just seems to me that Sox injuries never seem to be 'cut and dried,' they never seem to be 'clear cut.' Maybe all professional athletic injuries are that way and I've never noticed because I don't follow what other MLB are doing but I cover Idaho State University for example and they never seem to have any trouble telling the press exactly what happened to one of their football or basketball players.

These injuries can't possibly be as hard to figure out as the Sox seem to be making it. If something is torn, it's torn... or it isn't, there is no in between.

Lip

Randar68
07-09-2004, 01:43 PM
However as a reporter I've got to ask how then can you explain the seemingly endless confusion on White Sox injuries?

Lip, a real "reporter" would look around the league and study the phenomenon throughout the league, realizing that this is in now way unique to the White Sox. Bringing up Ken Harrison from 25 or more years ago is a perfect example. *** does that have to do with the current staff?

You just don't have a clue the difficulty involved in identifying many of these injuries. However, as always, that doesn't stop you from bitching to high heaven about it.


BORING.

Randar68
07-09-2004, 01:44 PM
These injuries can't possibly be as hard to figure out as the Sox seem to be making it. If something is torn, it's torn... or it isn't, there is no in between.
Dumbest post of the year?

dickallen15
07-09-2004, 01:49 PM
Gang:

If there are any doctors out there I appreciate what you do and can't even begin to fathom how difficult it is to do what you do.

However as a reporter I've got to ask how then can you explain the seemingly endless confusion on White Sox injuries?

The list gets longer and longer.....Eldred's misdiagnosis, Sirotka's misdiagnosis and charges, the misreading of his MRI, Ordonez's misdiagnosis, and now a claim by a writer who works for White Sox.com that "the injury was worse then first diagnosed..."

These are the best doctors in the world?

Again I mean no personal offense but come on.....how many times is a 'forearm strain' going to morph into a cracked elbow? or a strained hamstring into a torn miniscus (sorry about the spelling...) What's next...a twisted knee into a brain tumor?

If my personal physician was as wrong as these Sox doctors seem to have been since 2000 that I'd sure as hell get a new doctor.

I think it's significant to note that Ken Williams spent a portion of his time during the off season after 2000 telling fans and the media that Sox doctors were thorough, professional and competent. Obviously he wasn't going to be doing that if I was the only person questioning things. Other people were wondering what the hell is going on.

It just seems to me that Sox injuries never seem to be 'cut and dried,' they never seem to be 'clear cut.' Maybe all professional athletic injuries are that way and I've never noticed because I don't follow what other MLB are doing but I cover Idaho State University for example and they never seem to have any trouble telling the press exactly what happened to one of their football or basketball players.

These injuries can't possibly be as hard to figure out as the Sox seem to be making it. If something is torn, it's torn... or it isn't, there is no in between.

Lip
Lip,
I'm pretty sure the White Sox have a new medical staff this season. Boscardin is gone. I have asked myself the same questions. It does appear that the misdiagnosis is not a White Sox problem exclusively. But the Ordonez original diagnosis, and what was ultimately found seems troubling to me. The Cubs, I believe, just lie about their injuries. Boston has had numerous medical dramas with misdiagnosis'. Now KW says Frank will only be out a few days, it makes you wonder what is really going on.

Mickster
07-09-2004, 01:50 PM
These injuries can't possibly be as hard to figure out as the Sox seem to be making it. If something is torn, it's torn... or it isn't, there is no in between.
Have to disagree. Even Dr. Andrews will take multiple MRIs from multiple angles for a particular injury b/c it is oftentimes very difficult to see.

RKMeibalane
07-09-2004, 01:57 PM
Dumbest post of the year?
I've read some pretty stupid things over the past week or so. I don't if it's the dumbest post of the year, but it's up there.

There are some weird things being written on this board.

Randar68
07-09-2004, 01:58 PM
I've read some pretty stupid things over the past week or so. I don't if it's the dumbest post of the year, but it's up there.

There are some weird things being written on this board.
The "Stupidity and ignorance" quotient on this board has gone through the roof over the past 6 months and I expect more out of "educated" people like Lip, despite his pathetically negative disposition.

Wealz
07-09-2004, 01:59 PM
Since the injury occured on the road isn't it possible the original diagnosis wasn't done by White Sox team doctors?

RKMeibalane
07-09-2004, 02:02 PM
The "Stupidity and ignorance" quotient on this board has gone through the roof over the past 6 months and I expect more out of "educated" people like Lip, despite his pathetically negative disposition.
I think this is actually one of the drawbacks of the exposure WSI has gotten. Because more people know of it's existence than before, there have been so many new people who have come to the board in the past few months, and not all of them have made positive contributions. Some were banned immediately for trolling, while others make post after post containing nothing but utter nonsense. The worst part about it is that some of them actually believe what they're saying has merit.

Brian26
07-09-2004, 02:04 PM
Dumbest post of the year?

Along with a couple of other gems from this guy. I lose more and more respect for him everytime he opens his mouth like this.

Randar68
07-09-2004, 02:05 PM
I think this is actually one of the drawbacks of the exposure WSI has gotten. Because more people know of it's existence than before, there have been so many new people who have come to the board in the past few months, and not all of them have made positive contributions. Some were banned immediately for trolling, while others make post after post containing nothing but utter nonsense. The worst part about it is that some of them actually believe what they're saying has merit.
I think a majority of people that come here are White Sox fans, but you are right, a large number simply do not contribute to any kind of intelligent baseball discussion.

The repeated postings of identical topics and articles, the repetitive drivel about certain players or topics, all of the FO's for various groups. It does detract from the content, and definitely makes it harder to have good discussions without people hijacking the threads, etc.

I think your last sentence is really a great summation of the entire issue.

Randar68
07-09-2004, 02:06 PM
Since the injury occured on the road isn't it possible the original diagnosis wasn't done by White Sox team doctors?
Very possible. Also, depending on how much inflammation there was, any kind of diagnosis is going to be initially very coarse. Bone spurs and loose bodies in hands, feet, wrists and ankles are very difficult to diagnose until they are very severe...

Dadawg_77
07-09-2004, 02:10 PM
As far as the Sox telling Frank to *tough it out and play through it*: just wondering if some of you saying/thinking that are the same people who were bitching that he (a) was not in the lineup in interleague play in NL parks; and (b) say Frank belongs in the field more, playing 1B. Sound familiar to anyone? Or is it just easier to play armchair coach behind the computer? You tell me.

From my medical point of view, I don't know anything about the sprain of a few weeks ago, and what he may have done there. Never heard about it, guess I just missed it. Since I don't remember which ankle he had surgery on before, I am assuming it is the same one.
I think if we put these two thoughts together that most if not all fans who complained about Frank not being in the lineup against the Cubs did so under the assumption that Frank was healthy. Now that new information has come to light, those fans are reassess those thoughts, but no real forum to express the changed thoughts. Now they are asking why did the team push its superstar to play injured, this assumes the team knew Frank was hurting, given Ozzie's comments about this, that is a fair assumption.

Brian26
07-09-2004, 02:11 PM
I think a majority of people that come here are White Sox fans, but you are right, a large number simply do not contribute to any kind of intelligent baseball discussion.

The repeated postings of identical topics and articles, the repetitive drivel about certain players or topics, all of the FO's for various groups. It does detract from the content, and definitely makes it harder to have good discussions without people hijacking the threads, etc.

I think your last sentence is really a great summation of the entire issue.

This is somewhat a problem across-the-board on the internet. WSI just happens to be a reflection of what's happened to every great newsgroup, discussion site, or website. Newsgroups in the early 90's got bombarded from mostly academic users when AOL, Compuserve and Prodigy came into existence.

Randar68
07-09-2004, 02:14 PM
This is somewhat a problem across-the-board on the internet. WSI just happens to be a reflection of what's happened to every great newsgroup, discussion site, or website. Newsgroups in the early 90's got bombarded from mostly academic users when AOL, Compuserve and Prodigy came into existence.Yeah, I remember all the garbage newsgroups contained back in the day when mainstream internet access was becoming more widely available. I just really don't want this site to become "ESPN troll board sans other teams' trolls" That just isn't enough for me.

Intelligent conversation is stimulating.

Ignorant bantering and blabbing is like listening to a 12-year old girl's phone conversation with her friend... UGH.

RKMeibalane
07-09-2004, 02:24 PM
Yeah, I remember all the garbage newsgroups contained back in the day when mainstream internet access was becoming more widely available. I just really don't want this site to become "ESPN troll board sans other teams' trolls" That just isn't enough for me.

Intelligent conversation is stimulating.

Ignorant bantering and blabbing is like listening to a 12-year old girl's phone conversation with her friend... UGH.
I think WSI having more moderators will help. A number of people have been warned about their behavior, and several others have been banned in the past because it got to the point where their actions were no longer tolerable. Now that there are more people on this board who can take action against the trouble-makers, I'm hoping that things will quiet down.

Randar68
07-09-2004, 02:30 PM
I think WSI having more moderators will help. A number of people have been warned about their behavior, and several others have been banned in the past because it got to the point where their actions were no longer tolerable. Now that there are more people on this board who can take action against the trouble-makers, I'm hoping that things will quiet down.
But many of the "offenders" don't cross clear-cut lines of misbehavior. They just are boorish, lame, unintelligent, ignorant, or downright stupid.

There are no "board rules" governing that. The whole "everyone is entitled to their opinion" misnomer really drives a lot of the diarrhea of the keyboard.

Fungo
07-09-2004, 02:34 PM
Very possible. Also, depending on how much inflammation there was, any kind of diagnosis is going to be initially very coarse. Bone spurs and loose bodies in hands, feet, wrists and ankles are very difficult to diagnose until they are very severe...True. I had knee surgery back in November to repair a tear in my medial meniscus and to remove what I thought was ONE loose body. Turned out the doctor removed SIX that were all the size of dimes (along with discovering my ACL in my right knee has completely worn away).

Flight #24
07-09-2004, 03:20 PM
These injuries can't possibly be as hard to figure out as the Sox seem to be making it. If something is torn, it's torn... or it isn't, there is no in between.

Lip
The problem is that short of opening up a guy to see, it can be hard to determine if something's torn, especially if it's a partial tear. Even MRI's don't necessarily show everything as you have to kind of judge what's the piece yo're looking at and whether what looks like a tear is in fact just another part of the body.

Not to mention that it's pretty easy to single out incidents where the initial diagnosis was not as bad as the final. But how many correct diagnoses were there in the interim? How does that % of correct diagnoses compare to the league in general? It doesn't seem to me that the Sox medical staff is in any way worse than other teams, and in fact in some ways, they seem to be a lot better (rehab being the prime example with Hermie being the driver of it).

Dadawg_77
07-09-2004, 03:23 PM
Not to mention that it's pretty easy to single out incidents where the initial diagnosis was not as bad as the final. But how many correct diagnoses were there in the interim? How does that % of correct diagnoses compare to the league in general? It doesn't seem to me that the Sox medical staff is in any way worse than other teams, and in fact in some ways, they seem to be a lot better (rehab being the prime example with Hermie being the driver of it).
Lip also doesn't take into account that White Sox don't play football and they can and might mislead the media for their own reasons.

jabrch
07-09-2004, 03:55 PM
The problem is that short of opening up a guy to see, it can be hard to determine if something's torn, especially if it's a partial tear. Even MRI's don't necessarily show everything as you have to kind of judge what's the piece yo're looking at and whether what looks like a tear is in fact just another part of the body.

Not to mention that it's pretty easy to single out incidents where the initial diagnosis was not as bad as the final. But how many correct diagnoses were there in the interim? How does that % of correct diagnoses compare to the league in general? It doesn't seem to me that the Sox medical staff is in any way worse than other teams, and in fact in some ways, they seem to be a lot better (rehab being the prime example with Hermie being the driver of it).
Noble Flight...noble

RKMeibalane
07-09-2004, 04:23 PM
But many of the "offenders" don't cross clear-cut lines of misbehavior. They just are boorish, lame, unintelligent, ignorant, or downright stupid.

There are no "board rules" governing that. The whole "everyone is entitled to their opinion" misnomer really drives a lot of the diarrhea of the keyboard.
Again, that's the problem with the increased amount of publicity that this site has gotten recently. I guess the only real thing that could drive a lot of the idiots away is the fact that the other posters here do a good job of both recognizing when someone has said something stupid and then calling them on it.

Deadguy
07-09-2004, 04:30 PM
This is somewhat a problem across-the-board on the internet. WSI just happens to be a reflection of what's happened to every great newsgroup, discussion site, or website. Newsgroups in the early 90's got bombarded from mostly academic users when AOL, Compuserve and Prodigy came into existence.
The problem with newsgroups in the early 90s, however, was that they were inhabited by a large amount of people with elitist attitudes. If you didn't think a particular way or go along with a certain point of view, you just wouldn't last long as a regular poster.

Looking through old google posts from the early 90s, they are an outstanding source of information, but they are ussually lacking in terms of humor or entertainment value.

Lip Man 1
07-09-2004, 09:54 PM
Dadawg:

Isn't there some type of rule in MLB about giving out false or misleading injury info? I don't know if that's the case or not just wondering.

Also I'm curious if you can paint a scenario for me where the Sox would deliberately lie about an injury and why, again I'm curious.

Perhaps the best way to end all this confusion is for the field manager or the team trainer to say NOTHING until they are sure and then let the doctors themselves address the media on the injury.

That way you avoid things like Manager Gandhi making a fool of himself by making those statements on Eldred. Statements that I'm assuming he got from Schneider since I can't imagine Gandhi pulling them out of thin air.

For example...'Folks, we're not sure about the injury to Frank. He's going to be examined tomorrow by specialists and when something definate is discovered and we've had a chance to determine what he and the club is going to do to correct things, we'll contact the media via press release. Until then we just don't know for sure what's wrong with him.'

Something like that would have avoided Kenny Williams going on the radio this morning talking about frank's health and then a few hours later the team puts him on the DL.

Lip

beckett21
07-10-2004, 03:29 PM
The problem is that short of opening up a guy to see, it can be hard to determine if something's torn, especially if it's a partial tear. Even MRI's don't necessarily show everything as you have to kind of judge what's the piece yo're looking at and whether what looks like a tear is in fact just another part of the body.You are right on target here Flight.

Medicine, as much as people would like to think that it is *cookbook* black & white, it just isn't. Despite all the tremendous medical advances of our time, there is still a great deal of subjectivity involved. Oftentimes the extent of an injury is not fully appreciated until you can see it up close and personal with your own two eyes, i.e. surgically. MRI's can often (VERY often) be inconclusive. That is not to say that they are worthless; they are an indispensible diagnostic tool which provide a wealth of information. But they cannot tell the whole story. A doctor is looking at static images as opposed to something that is three-dimensional in nature. Hence multiple views from multiple angles, in different body planes. Yet this is still not a perfect science.

Lip, unfortunately all tears are not created equal, as convenient as that would be. Ligaments can be attenuated (stretched out), and not actually torn. They may not always give the appearance of being torn on MRI. Almost EVERY MRI report I recieve comes with a *disclaimer* by the radiologist which states, either *not definitive* or *cannot be ruled out*, and ends with *must correlate clinically* . What all this means is that the radiologist cannot tell you with 100% certainty if something is or is not torn, or if there is or is not a stress fracture, for example. It is up to me, the treating physician, to use my judgment based upon my interpretation of the films and what information I gather from my examination. Personally, I am very conservative. Meaning, that if I have any shadow of a doubt, I err on the side of caution. In normal, everyday life, this is how things work.

But I do not treat million dollar athletes. There is a difference between treating little old Mrs. Jones and Frank Thomas. The public DEMANDS that players play, because when they sit out they are accused of being soft, that they need to *suck it up* for all the money that they make. I would like to think that management would like to protect their investments, shut a guy down before the condition gets worse, but there is pressure to get players on the field in all professional sports. There is a lot of money at stake. If it is something that can wait until the offseason, it will. But if the player's health is in severe peril or he is physically unable to perform, obviously there is no choice. As sad as it may sound, economics are a driving force in the world of professional athletics. I'm not saying that it is right or wrong, but it is a reality.

If Frank Thomas were to walk into my office tomorrow and I told him he needed surgery and would be out for two months, I'm guessing there would be a lynch mob tracking me down. What Frank has is painful, and degenerative. But just from my understanding of the problem from what I can glean from the papers, it is something that can be handled in late October or November. Last I saw he was being fitted for a brace, which should help tremendously. Will he be 100%? Of course not. But he wouldn't be after surgery either; he never will be.

And as far as full disclosure of injuries, we live in a very litiginous society today. There are HIPAA laws to respect, meaning that anyone's personal medical information is just that--personal. Doctors are not able to walk around blabbing information about. It is a confidentiality issue, and in all honesty it is for the best. I'm sure you would not like it if your proctologist was announcing to the world that you had the biggest hemorrhoid he had ever seen. (Sorry, just using that as a random example to illustrate my point, nothing personal there!) :D: There is only so much the doctors can say, even though when the person is a public figure it is pretty hard to keep things private.

I do not think that the Sox said or did anything deceptive here.

beckett21
07-10-2004, 03:34 PM
True. I had knee surgery back in November to repair a tear in my medial meniscus and to remove what I thought was ONE loose body. Turned out the doctor removed SIX that were all the size of dimes (along with discovering my ACL in my right knee has completely worn away).Great example.

Did you sue them for misdiagnosis? :rolleyes:


Unfortunately things are not always what they seem until you open up surgically. No test is foolproof. Thanks for sharing that.

There are no guarantees in medicine, folks. If you want a guarantee, buy a used car. :redneck

beckett21
07-10-2004, 03:44 PM
I think if we put these two thoughts together that most if not all fans who complained about Frank not being in the lineup against the Cubs did so under the assumption that Frank was healthy. Now that new information has come to light, those fans are reassess those thoughts, but no real forum to express the changed thoughts. Now they are asking why did the team push its superstar to play injured, this assumes the team knew Frank was hurting, given Ozzie's comments about this, that is a fair assumption.Dawg,

It's a no-win situation. How can you say they pushed him to play? Maybe Frank said, *yeah it hurts but I can play through it?* Once it was obviously affecting his performance, it was taken out of his hands perhaps and they shut him down? Or is Frank not capable of making his own decision to play thru a chronic injury? If I am missing something that may have been reported and I am unequivocally wrong here, please correct me. But why is it KW and Ozzie's fault automatically? Especially when he SAT?

On the flip side, why create mass hysteria talking about an injury which has most likely bothered Frank every day of his life for the last 5 to 10 years, and is just flaring up? Damned if they do report it, damned if they don't. I'm guessing Frank is ALWAYS hurting, just to variable degrees of hurt. (No pun intended)

People nowadays have unrealistic expectations of what medicine is capable of. The body has not changed, and still abides by certain rules of nature in regards to healing. Doctors cannot wave a magic wand and make things better, unlike how Wayne Rosenthal can with Billy Koch to teach him how to pitch.


The public thinks they know what they want, and then when you give it to them, they bitch about it. :?: