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Mickster
07-08-2004, 11:00 AM
Don't know if it was mentioned earlier but on MJH last night, Bruce Levine said "Interesting news to Sox fans is that KW contacted Arizona about the availibility of Randy Johnson and is very seriously looking in that direction." When Mack asked him if that was the case even though we signed Garcia and Levine said yes. He did say that it basically depends on Arizona "throwing in the towel" and Johnson waiving his no trade clause. He did say that Arizona has not yet gone to Johnson to ask his input about a trade nor has Johnson gone to the GM requesting a trade.

Take it for what it's worth.....

jabrch
07-08-2004, 11:02 AM
Don't know if it was mentioned earlier but on MJH last night, Bruce Levine said "Interesting news to Sox fans is that KW contacted Arizona about the availibility of Randy Johnson and is very seriously looking in that direction." When Mack asked him if that was the case even though we signed Garcia and Levine said yes. He did say that it basically depends on Arizona "throwing in the towel" and Johnson waiving his no trade clause. He did say that Arizona has not yet gone to Johnson to ask is input about a trade nor has Johnson gone to the GM requesting a trade.

Take it for what it's worth.....
I heard that. I can only imagine the KW haters going on about how he depletes our farmsystem for high priced old pitchers with declining strikeout rates.

WSox8404
07-08-2004, 11:06 AM
What are you guys nuts? That would mean that our fifth starter, Scot Shoenweis would have to go to the bullpen. We wouldn't want to make him mad. He clearly thinks he has what it takes to be a starter and I believe in his opinion of himself.

Paulwny
07-08-2004, 11:08 AM
The yankmees are also interested in Johnson. Supposedly King Georged, on a sports talk show, expressed his desire for Johnson. I also wouldn't count Boston out of any talks. Because of the no-trade clause, Johnson will determine where he wants to play.

Mickster
07-08-2004, 11:08 AM
What are you guys nuts? That would mean that our fifth starter, Scot Shoenweis would have to go to the bullpen. We wouldn't want to make him mad. He clearly thinks he has what it takes to be a starter and I believe in his opinion of himself.
THIS is teal. THIS is not. :D:

bobj4400
07-08-2004, 11:08 AM
I heard that. I can only imagine the KW haters going on about how he depletes our farmsystem for high priced old pitchers with declining strikeout rates.
I think you meant to use this color type...yes, I am being the teal police.

Tekijawa
07-08-2004, 11:09 AM
Just making Sure that we get all possible collors in this thread!

bobj4400
07-08-2004, 11:09 AM
THIS is teal. THIS is not. :D:
Between the two of us, we will put an end to the misuse of color!!! :bandance:

Randar68
07-08-2004, 11:10 AM
The yankmees are also interested in Johnson. Supposedly King Georged, on a sports talk show, expressed his desire for Johnson. I also wouldn't count Boston out of any talks. Because of the no-trade clause, Johnson will determine where he wants to play.
As was the case with Garcia, if the trading team is more interested in prospects, the Yankees have no chance. If it's money, then they're a player.

WSox8404
07-08-2004, 11:10 AM
THIS is teal. THIS is not. :D:
I like men. Better? Lol.

Mickster
07-08-2004, 11:13 AM
As was the case with Garcia, if the trading team is more interested in prospects, the Yankees have no chance. If it's money, then they're a player.
I hope that King George's antics will back-fire on him at some point. Sure he can afford to pay free agents all that he wants, but as far as adding pieces to a playoff or chhampionship run might be very difficult considering his depleted farm system.

samram
07-08-2004, 11:14 AM
As was the case with Garcia, if the trading team is more interested in prospects, the Yankees have no chance. If it's money, then they're a player.
Agreed, but the Yankees really only have high-priced players and AZ definitely doesn't want that. Unless they want Enrique Wilson or John Flaherty, which they very likely don't. I also don't see them wanting Contreras.

Paulwny
07-08-2004, 11:14 AM
As was the case with Garcia, if the trading team is more interested in prospects, the Yankees have no chance. If it's money, then they're a player.
Johnson has a no trade clause so it's up to him. If Arizona is just looking to dump his contract they won't care about traded players, they'll take what they can get. Johnson holds the cards, not the d-backs.

Baby Fisk
07-08-2004, 11:19 AM
Wasn't it already established that Johnson is happy where he is and won't go to another team at this point? He's got his WS ring. If he had his pick, why would he pick Chicago? Sorry to be pessimistic, but I don't see this happening. Still, I look forward to eating those words. :cool:

Flight #24
07-08-2004, 11:20 AM
That is EXTREMELY interesting for the obivous reason, but also because it indicates that the Sox seem to be looking forward to a reasonable increase in payroll. Even subtracting Maggs, Valentin, Loaiza, Koch (Total $28mil), leaves about a 6mil increase when you factor in Randy (16mil), Garcia (8mil in 05), and general raises to to others (8-10mil).


Since I highly doubt the DBacks are going to eat salary for a player of Randy's impact, this is a good sign for 05 payroll.

And FWIW - a team with a rotation of Randy, Garcia, Buehrle, Garland, and DaDawg77/Rauch/Diaz is a very serious playoff contender, even with an offense of Harris-Uribe-Thomas-Lee-Konerko-Crede-Borchard-Rowand-C.

jabrch
07-08-2004, 11:21 AM
Wasn't it already established that Johnson is happy where he is and won't go to another team at this point? He's got his WS ring. If he had his pick, why would he pick Chicago? Sorry to be pessimistic, but I don't see this happening. Still, I look forward to eating those words. :cool:
At least KW is making efforts. He has more moves up his sleeve - and I like that!

Randar68
07-08-2004, 11:21 AM
Johnson has a no trade clause so it's up to him. If Arizona is just looking to dump his contract they won't care about traded players, they'll take what they can get. Johnson holds the cards, not the d-backs.
I agree completely. It's all under the guise that he'd even accept a trade to Chicago, or NY for that matter. However, all I was stating was if both teams are willing to eat all or almost all of his contract, and it comes down to a package of prospects, the Yankees only really have one legit high level prospect.

Mickster
07-08-2004, 11:21 AM
Wasn't it already established that Johnson is happy where he is and won't go to another team at this point? He's got his WS ring. If he had his pick, why would he pick Chicago? Sorry to be pessimistic, but I don't see this happening. Still, I look forward to eating those words. :cool:
Agree completely. That is why I said to take it for what it is worth.

Flight #24
07-08-2004, 11:21 AM
Wasn't it already established that Johnson is happy where he is and won't go to another team at this point? He's got his WS ring. If he had his pick, why would he pick Chicago? Sorry to be pessimistic, but I don't see this happening. Still, I look forward to eating those words. :cool:
Win a WS, own a major city (chicago), not be another in a series of Yankees & Yankee championships. Adding RJ without subtracting from the ML roster makes us the definite favorites for the title.

Randar68
07-08-2004, 11:22 AM
At least KW is making efforts. He has more moves up his sleeve - and I like that!
He has absolutely GOT to get a catcher. We might as well have the pitcher hit and DH for Burke and Davis on the days they catch.

Hondo
07-08-2004, 11:22 AM
At least KW is putting us out there.

RJ from all acounts would only go to a west coast team.

Anaheim, LA, Frisco, those are players.

But maybe KW and Ozzie can pitch something to him and change his mind.

Mickster
07-08-2004, 11:23 AM
And FWIW - a team with a rotation of Randy, Garcia, Buehrle, Garland, and DaDawg77/Rauch/Diaz is a very serious playoff contender, even with an offense of Harris-Uribe-Thomas-Lee-Konerko-Crede-Borchard-Rowand-C.
Don't you mean Loaiza??? :rolling:

Baby Fisk
07-08-2004, 11:24 AM
At least KW is putting us out there.

RJ from all acounts would only go to a west coast team.

Anaheim, LA, Frisco, those are players.

But maybe KW and Ozzie can pitch something to him and change his mind.
Maybe RJ has a weakness for unlimited churros? :cool:

samram
07-08-2004, 11:27 AM
Maybe RJ has a weakness for unlimited churros? :cool:
See, that's the spirit. You have to think outside the box. You canucks- what will you think of next?:D:

jabrch
07-08-2004, 11:28 AM
He has absolutely GOT to get a catcher. We might as well have the pitcher hit and DH for Burke and Davis on the days they catch.
I'd like to see that Randar. The pickins are slim. I was on the kendall-train right after the Garcia deal - and i still am. That would be plan A as far as I am concerned.

That said, if RJ is willing to come here, he is a much more valuable player than a catcher.

Randar68
07-08-2004, 11:29 AM
I'd like to see that Randar. The pickins are slim. I was on the kendall-train right after the Garcia deal - and i still am. That would be plan A as far as I am concerned.

That said, if RJ is willing to come here, he is a much more valuable player than a catcher.
I agree, but the cost in terms of $$ and prospects is probably going to be higher than most of the catching option, including Kendall.

jabrch
07-08-2004, 11:33 AM
I agree, but the cost in terms of $$ and prospects is probably going to be higher than most of the catching option, including Kendall.

for sure...but if JR/KW have the money to spend - the upside is unfathomable.

Reality is that this won't happen - RJ has a big contract for next year that I don't know if we can really afford to pick up given our other committments. But imagine a rotation of RJ/MB/ELO/FG/JG - That would be awesome. In the playoffs we could go to a legit 4 man rotation, or we could have RJ go on even shorter rest. Never gonna happen - but it's ok to dream, right?

Mickster
07-08-2004, 11:33 AM
At least KW is making efforts. He has more moves up his sleeve - and I like that!
That is what we really should take from this info regarding Johnson. Johnson is a pipedream but is does show that KW will not stand pat and we very well might be in for another huge announcement as some point before July 31. We all know that we need a catcher as well as some bullpen help. He seems to want more and that is a GOOD sign. :smile:

Flight #24
07-08-2004, 11:34 AM
Don't you mean Loaiza??? :rolling:trading for RJ = bye bye E-Lo, hello DD77!

But seriously, while Garcia's not better than Schilling, Buehrle/Garland is a lot better than the DBack's 3&4 starters when they won the WS.

Tekijawa
07-08-2004, 11:34 AM
But maybe KW and Ozzie can pitch something to him and change his mind.
Johnson isn't by any Chance of Venezuelan Decent is he?

MrRoboto83
07-08-2004, 11:34 AM
Getting RJ would be great, BUT what will will have to give up for will NOT. Keep in mind how injury prone RJ is, it would totally suck giving up half of AAA for someone who may break down.

Mickster
07-08-2004, 11:39 AM
Johnson isn't by any Chance of Venezuelan Decent is he?
Maybe Ozzie has other cousins he'd like to offer up??? Is RJ into polygamy?

TomParrish79
07-08-2004, 11:39 AM
I think its wishful thinking on KW's part. But I like what he's trying to do. And you never know, he might can pull it off.

Fungo
07-08-2004, 11:39 AM
for sure...but if JR/KW have the money to spend - the upside is unfathomable.

Reality is that this won't happen - RJ has a big contract for next year that I don't know if we can really afford to pick up given our other committments. But imagine a rotation of RJ/MB/ELO/FG/JG - That would be awesome. In the playoffs we could go to a legit 4 man rotation, or we could have RJ go on even shorter rest. Never gonna happen - but it's ok to dream, right?
We'd have to make the playoffs first. :redneck

Tekijawa
07-08-2004, 11:46 AM
In the playoffs we could go to a legit 4 man rotation, or we could have RJ go on even shorter rest. Never gonna happen - but it's ok to dream, right?
Or we could do what the Cubs did... have a 3 man rotation, pitch their arms off in the play offs, get deep but not too deep, fill the stadium with season ticket holders and raise prices... then have the 2 guys who ate up all the go on the DL for half the season next year and have a park full of morons both at home and on the road... I switched over to the Cubs game after the Sox game last night only to have to listen to Ronnie Woo Woo for 2 secconds before I became irritated enough to switch the channel instead of taking a little bit of pleasure out of watching brewers fans waiver brooms in a Staduim Packed with Cubbie blue... Hope the trip up nort was worth it Cubs fans!

Paulwny
07-08-2004, 11:48 AM
I agree completely. It's all under the guise that he'd even accept a trade to Chicago, or NY for that matter. However, all I was stating was if both teams are willing to eat all or almost all of his contract, and it comes down to a package of prospects, the Yankees only really have one legit high level prospect.
I wonder if Bud would rule against a trade to NY if it only involved one prospect and a ton of cash, as Bowie Kuhn did.

gosox41
07-08-2004, 11:57 AM
Don't know if it was mentioned earlier but on MJH last night, Bruce Levine said "Interesting news to Sox fans is that KW contacted Arizona about the availibility of Randy Johnson and is very seriously looking in that direction." When Mack asked him if that was the case even though we signed Garcia and Levine said yes. He did say that it basically depends on Arizona "throwing in the towel" and Johnson waiving his no trade clause. He did say that Arizona has not yet gone to Johnson to ask his input about a trade nor has Johnson gone to the GM requesting a trade.

Take it for what it's worth.....
Doesn't hurt to ask, but it's a long shot considering the Dodgers, Red Sox, and Yankees all want him.


Bob

Lip Man 1
07-08-2004, 12:03 PM
Folks:

D-back's owner (for now) Jerry Colangelo has stated that he wants Johnson to retire as a D-back and ensure that he'll enter the Hall Of Fame in an Arizona hat.

Colangelo has also stated that for the new owners to succeed the club must have a marquee player to help keep the fans interested as they reduce payroll and rebuild the club...that player is Johnson.

And as stated Johnson has a no trade clause.

I'm sure Williams did ask but so have every other team in MLB.

I can not see Johnson going anywhere unless he specifically asks for a trade. He means to much to the franchise financially to be dealt.

Lip

Iguana775
07-08-2004, 12:05 PM
Folks:

D-back's owner (for now) Jerry Colangelo has stated that he wants Johnson to retire as a D-back and ensure that he'll enter the Hall Of Fame in an Arizona hat.

Colangelo has also stated that for the new owners to succeed the club must have a marquee player to help keep the fans interested as they reduce payroll and rebuild the club...that player is Johnson.

And as stated Johnson has a no trade clause.

I'm sure Williams did ask but so have every other team in MLB.

I can not see Johnson going anywhere unless he specifically asks for a trade. He means to much to the franchise financially to be dealt.

Lip
Fun killer. lol.

It's good to have dreams. :gulp:

Dadawg_77
07-08-2004, 12:06 PM
That is EXTREMELY interesting for the obivous reason, but also because it indicates that the Sox seem to be looking forward to a reasonable increase in payroll. Even subtracting Maggs, Valentin, Loaiza, Koch (Total $28mil), leaves about a 6mil increase when you factor in Randy (16mil), Garcia (8mil in 05), and general raises to to others (8-10mil).


Since I highly doubt the DBacks are going to eat salary for a player of Randy's impact, this is a good sign for 05 payroll.

And FWIW - a team with a rotation of Randy, Garcia, Buehrle, Garland, and DaDawg77/Rauch/Diaz is a very serious playoff contender, even with an offense of Harris-Uribe-Thomas-Lee-Konerko-Crede-Borchard-Rowand-C.
I can throw slower then Shingo so I might be able to fool major league hitters.

MrRoboto83
07-08-2004, 12:08 PM
Folks:

D-back's owner (for now) Jerry Colangelo has stated that he wants Johnson to retire as a D-back and ensure that he'll enter the Hall Of Fame in an Arizona hat.

Colangelo has also stated that for the new owners to succeed the club must have a marquee player to help keep the fans interested as they reduce payroll and rebuild the club...that player is Johnson.

And as stated Johnson has a no trade clause.

I'm sure Williams did ask but so have every other team in MLB.

I can not see Johnson going anywhere unless he specifically asks for a trade. He means to much to the franchise financially to be dealt.

Lip



Good point Lip, although they do have Richie Sexton too now even though he is injured as their Marquee player. If the Yankees want him so bad I hope he stays put, i would hate to see RJ in yankee pinstripes, that would be painful

samram
07-08-2004, 12:09 PM
I agree, but the cost in terms of $$ and prospects is probably going to be higher than most of the catching option, including Kendall.What would you think of Ramon Hernandez when he comes off the DL? He probably would come relatively cheap and Quintero seems to be playing pretty well for them. Not to mention, they may be interested in pursuing Kendall (given Kendall's SoCal roots), so he could be expendable to them.

LongLiveFisk
07-08-2004, 12:10 PM
I heard on either AM1000 or the Score that New York is the one place Randy Johnson has said he would NOT want to play. If that is really the case, we should not see him in Yankee pinstripes.

MrRoboto83
07-08-2004, 12:12 PM
I heard on either AM1000 or the Score that New York is the one place Randy Johnson has said he would NOT want to play. If that is really the case, we should not see him in Yankee pinstripes.


The Snore and 1000 dont know anything from everything

Dadawg_77
07-08-2004, 12:13 PM
I have posted this before but one way to solve all these problems is to trade Randy Johnson for himself. It has been done before and could be done again.
The DBacks want Randy to retire a DBack this solves that, they also need to save money, if the Sox agree to pick up Randy's remaining salary and deferred money for this year (6 million?), that will greatly help the DBacks cash flow. Randy is comfortable in Zona and doesn't want to up root his family but it is summer and school is out so the Kids can have a two month vacation in Chicago and head back to school in Zona come the fall. The Sox could undeferr the money owed to Johnson to spice the deal up for him. And instead of playing a year and half away from home, it would only be a half of a season.


Edit
Looking at MLB trading rules found this
There are two restrictions on deals involving players to be named. Any transaction made in this manor must be completed within 6 months of the initial transaction. Also the player to be named can not have played in the same league as the team he is being traded to.

Can any tell me what League means? Does it mean a guy can go from NL to the AL but not AL to AL? I know I have seen transactions in the past where the PTBNL was the guy who was traded in the first place. They might have predated that rule but not sure.

Paulwny
07-08-2004, 12:23 PM
Everyone take a look in "talking baseball" and the thread started by fenway.

Lip Man 1
07-08-2004, 12:25 PM
I believe Sexson is a free agent next year.

I remember hearing Ken Rosenthal say on The Sporting News radio network that even though he is injured he still might get a big contract from a club next season. If I remember this correctly that implies he is a free agent.

Lip

Flight #24
07-08-2004, 12:29 PM
I have posted this before but one way to solve all these problems is to trade Randy Johnson for himself. It has been done before and could be done again.
The DBacks want Randy to retire a DBack this solves that, they also need to save money, if the Sox agree to pick up Randy's remaining salary and deferred money for this year (6 million?), that will greatly help the DBacks cash flow. Randy is comfortable in Zona and doesn't want to up root his family but it is summer and school is out so the Kids can have a two month vacation in Chicago and head back to school in Zona come the fall. The Sox could undeferr the money owed to Johnson to spice the deal up for him. And instead of playing a year and half away from home, it would only be a half of a season.


Edit
Looking at MLB trading rules found this
There are two restrictions on deals involving players to be named. Any transaction made in this manor must be completed within 6 months of the initial transaction. Also the player to be named can not have played in the same league as the team he is being traded to.

Can any tell me what League means? Does it mean a guy can go from NL to the AL but not AL to AL? I know I have seen transactions in the past where the PTBNL was the guy who was traded in the first place. They might have predated that rule but not sure.
That's hilarious and if legal, I'm surprised it's not used more often. Heck - if the Giants fall out of it, give them a low-level prospect and "rent" Barry Bonds for a couple months. Do the same with RJ. Up the payroll for this year only and give Chicago fans a better than 50% shot at a WS.

Seriously, if I'm a non-contending team, I'd be looking to prospects to rent ANYof my good players. Pirates GM calls up Yankees: "Hey - got a couple of class A pitchers that you want to send me and I'll give you budding star Oliver Perez for the stretch run"? Something tells me this is restricted in the CBS in some way.

LASOXFAN
07-08-2004, 12:32 PM
What are you guys nuts? That would mean that our fifth starter, Scot Shoenweis would have to go to the bullpen. We wouldn't want to make him mad. He clearly thinks he has what it takes to be a starter and I believe in his opinion of himself.
:D:

mcfish
07-08-2004, 12:41 PM
We'd have to make the playoffs first. :redneck
And we need to get more than 6 hits in a game again before that happens. :angry:

OzzieBall2004
07-08-2004, 04:54 PM
Maybe I'm crazy and optimistic, but Chicago seems like the perfect fit for RJ...

1) We're a legitimate contender as it stands, and with the addition of him, we're a ALCS favorite by most accounts.

2) He dislikes the Yankees, which rules them out regardless of what Curious George tries.

3) We have good young players, albeit a few years away, but we're not afraid to ship them away for a chance to win now.

Only problems are, he's not a city boy. He's never played anywhere but out west, and probably wouldnt want to start now. However... Buehrles a redneck, so if he throws him the keys to his place in MO, they can work out a deal where he gets to get drunk and fish and listen to country when he's not pitching (sort of a redneck version of Clemens' arrangement). Maybe then RJ could be persuaded...

Cubbiesuck13
07-08-2004, 04:57 PM
Don't know if it was mentioned earlier but on MJH last night, Bruce Levine said "Interesting news to Sox fans is that KW contacted Arizona about the availibility of Randy Johnson and is very seriously looking in that direction." When Mack asked him if that was the case even though we signed Garcia and Levine said yes. He did say that it basically depends on Arizona "throwing in the towel" and Johnson waiving his no trade clause. He did say that Arizona has not yet gone to Johnson to ask his input about a trade nor has Johnson gone to the GM requesting a trade.

Take it for what it's worth.....
well despite him pitching well right now i don't want him. he is going to break down in the very near future. the man takes cortazone (sp?) shots in his knees just so he can make his starts. That is not something that screams durability down the stretch. i would rather have ben sheets.

Flight #24
07-08-2004, 05:06 PM
i would rather have ben sheets.
And I'd rather have Mark Prior, Josh Beckett, Roger Clemens, Pedro Martinez. But much like Sheets, none of them is even remotely available. Randy could be since he's older, carries a big salary, and the DBacks are rebuilding.:)

Cubbiesuck13
07-08-2004, 05:10 PM
And I'd rather have Mark Prior, Josh Beckett, Roger Clemens, Pedro Martinez. But much like Sheets, none of them is even remotely available. Randy could be since he's older, carries a big salary, and the DBacks are rebuilding.:)
sheets is more available than the guys you mentioned. at least he was supposed to be a couple of weeks again.

Mickster
07-08-2004, 05:14 PM
sheets is more available than the guys you mentioned. at least he was supposed to be a couple of weeks again.
Sheets was NEVER available. Where else, but on WSI, did you EVER hear the rumor that Sheets was available? ESPN? CBS Sportsline? Gammons?? Nowhere. Sheesh.

samram
07-08-2004, 05:21 PM
Sheets was NEVER available. Where else, but on WSI, did you EVER hear the rumor that Sheets was available? ESPN? CBS Sportsline? Gammons?? Nowhere. Sheesh.
Not to mention the Brewers are 7 games over .500.

Cubbiesuck13
07-08-2004, 05:47 PM
Sheets was NEVER available. Where else, but on WSI, did you EVER hear the rumor that Sheets was available? ESPN? CBS Sportsline? Gammons?? Nowhere. Sheesh.
i guess not. sorry guys really sorry for posting incorect information. sheesh.

harwar
07-08-2004, 05:56 PM
Sheets was NEVER available. Where else, but on WSI, did you EVER hear the rumor that Sheets was available? ESPN? CBS Sportsline? Gammons?? Nowhere. Sheesh.
yea its WAY TOO LATe to get big ben sheets.That would have had to be done over the winter.

DickAllen72
07-08-2004, 06:01 PM
I wonder if Arizona would go for something like this:

Sox give a prospect + a "player to be named later" for RJ and cash (half of his remaining 2004 salary). The "player to be named" is RJ. The Sox in effect rent him for the remainder of the season in exchange for a prospect.

Arizona gets a prospect + RJ is back with them next year, and they save a little money this year.

Paulwny
07-08-2004, 06:10 PM
I wonder if Arizona would go for something like this:

Sox give a prospect + a "player to be named later" for RJ and cash (half of his remaining 2004 salary). The "player to be named" is RJ. The Sox in effect rent him for the remainder of the season in exchange for a prospect.

Arizona gets a prospect + RJ is back with them next year, and they save a little money this year.
I doesn't matter what the d-backs want. Johnson has a no-trade clause, he'll chose where he wants to play.

Mickster
07-08-2004, 06:11 PM
i guess not. sorry guys really sorry for posting incorect information. sheesh.
I'm not getting down on you. There are certain players that are available. Everyone knew Garcia was available. Benson from the Pirates, possibly Russ Ortiz from the Braves, even speculation of one of the Big 3 from the A's. But when talking about Ben Sheets, you might as well be talking about Clemens, Pedro and Schilling, all 4 of which will not be traded to any team. Just be realistic.

Is Johnson a pipe dream? Probably. But is was mentioned by Bruce Levine and that is the reason for starting this thread.

owensmouth
07-08-2004, 06:32 PM
Let's see, 24 million for a year and a half... Okay, how much would Randy Johnson be worth to the White Sox... Today the Sox had 27,000 for a day game. They had approximately the same for the past couple of games.

It appears that some people are beginning to believe that our beloved palehose are worth watching, and I suspect that the increased interest had something to do with "Freddie". By "Freddie", I'm referring to attitude, the attitude that KW is espousing when he goes out and gets the most desireable starting pitcher available at the time.

Now that we put togeather that remarkable win over the Angels, and have begun to put our hitting shoes on, adding Randy Johnson would say totally and completely "We're in this for the long haul."

So how many more people would be coming out to watch the Big Unit pitch? There's 13,000 more seats available, would they all be sold?

I think that, given the makeup of this team, and the already increased interest being shown by the fans, Randy Johnson is worth an additional 8,000 seats sold for his games. It wouldn't surprise me to hear the term "sold out", or "no tickets available".

In addition, he would keep raising the interest in the White Sox, which means more 30,000 plus games. In short, he would be the single most marketable addition that the White Sox can make, for both this year and the next.

That doesn't begin to include the White Sox merchandise. I will state here and now that the White Sox jersey with Johnson, R on the back will become this year's (and next year's) hottest jersey.

I think that the addition of Randy Johnson to this White Sox team would pay for himself.

Oh yeah, and next year is when the Sox are going to be signing a new radio contract. The additional interest generated by RJ would do well for the Sox.

Aidan
07-08-2004, 06:38 PM
Randy Johnson would be icing on the cake for this rotation but I don't see it happening. If he goes to a contender, it will probably be the Angels. Johnson has a no-trade clause in his contract but he may waive it to play in Anaheim since he owns a home near there. The Angels desperately need another starting pitcher with Colon being a bust and they would overpay to get him.

owensmouth
07-08-2004, 06:44 PM
Consider this... the Angels are the team closest geographically to Arizona (actually pretty much a tossup with the Dodgers). Does Coangelo want to send RJ to them?

jabrch
07-08-2004, 07:04 PM
RJ would not be "icing on the cake" - he'd be the cake, the icecream, the dainish, the baklava, the perogis, the matza balls, the moo shu, the wasabi, the jalapenos and any other food item you can think of.

Add Randy Johnson to this team and we would be THE team to beat in MLB. An offesnse that is able to score like we do - plus the best 5 man rotation in hte AL, and probably in baseball.

It's only a dream, my friends, only a dream. (any chance it might come true?)


Note: I wonder what the KW haters would then say? We gave up too much because the prospects we traded some day will likely be HOFers? RJs strikeout rate is declining? He is going to revert to his highschool numbers? Who knows - but I imagine they'd bitch about something.

Kogs35
07-08-2004, 07:12 PM
Oh yeah, and next year is when the Sox are going to be signing a new radio contract. The additional interest generated by RJ would do well for the Sox.ok the new radio contract could be a minus for the sox. the score might not take them and 780 to take them its got to be worth there while so there either going to go to 890 with a resonable deal or 1000 with a deal that works for both sides like revunue sharing. like the nhl on nbc or the afl on nbc. or they can pay a station to have them like the score gets money from the blackhawks broadcast there games

lowesox
07-08-2004, 07:19 PM
I think it won't happen because of how much Williams gave up for Garcia. Every GM in baseball knows that Williams will do anything to get the guy he has his eye on - and even Williams knows that giving up more players off the major league roster would be a big no no at this point.

SomebodyToldMe
07-08-2004, 07:19 PM
Let's see, 24 million for a year and a half... Okay, how much would Randy Johnson be worth to the White Sox... Today the Sox had 27,000 for a day game. They had approximately the same for the past couple of games.

It appears that some people are beginning to believe that our beloved palehose are worth watching, and I suspect that the increased interest had something to do with "Freddie". By "Freddie", I'm referring to attitude, the attitude that KW is espousing when he goes out and gets the most desireable starting pitcher available at the time.

Now that we put togeather that remarkable win over the Angels, and have begun to put our hitting shoes on, adding Randy Johnson would say totally and completely "We're in this for the long haul."

So how many more people would be coming out to watch the Big Unit pitch? There's 13,000 more seats available, would they all be sold?

I think that, given the makeup of this team, and the already increased interest being shown by the fans, Randy Johnson is worth an additional 8,000 seats sold for his games. It wouldn't surprise me to hear the term "sold out", or "no tickets available".

In addition, he would keep raising the interest in the White Sox, which means more 30,000 plus games. In short, he would be the single most marketable addition that the White Sox can make, for both this year and the next.

That doesn't begin to include the White Sox merchandise. I will state here and now that the White Sox jersey with Johnson, R on the back will become this year's (and next year's) hottest jersey.

I think that the addition of Randy Johnson to this White Sox team would pay for himself.

Oh yeah, and next year is when the Sox are going to be signing a new radio contract. The additional interest generated by RJ would do well for the Sox.
GREAT POST!

wow...i never thought of a Randy SOX jersey...i don't like buying jerseys with people's names on them, but i'd for damn sure buy one of those.

Jerome
07-08-2004, 07:41 PM
After we trade for Jason Kendall to fill in at catcher, pick up Carlos Beltran right before the deadline when Houston waves the white flag, then we get Randy Johnson.

soxwon
07-08-2004, 08:37 PM
[QUOTE=WSox8404]What are you guys nuts? That would mean that our fifth starter, Scot Shoenweis would have to go to the bullpen. We wouldn't want to make him mad. He clearly thinks he has what it takes to be a starter and I believe in his opinion of himself.


Oh please youd rather have schoenweiss than randy johnson.
im drooling thinking of the big unit in a sox uniform.

DaveIsHere
07-08-2004, 08:42 PM
[QUOTE=WSox8404]What are you guys nuts? That would mean that our fifth starter, Scot Shoenweis would have to go to the bullpen. We wouldn't want to make him mad. He clearly thinks he has what it takes to be a starter and I believe in his opinion of himself.


Oh please youd rather have schoenweiss than randy johnson.
im drooling thinking of the big unit in a sox uniform.THIS IS NOT TEAL, DAMN IT!!! I WANT TO HAVE MY FRIGGIN' EYESITE PAST 30!! MODS PLEASE POST SOMETHING TO STOP THIS, I AM DYING OVER HERE!!!!!!!!!

samram
07-08-2004, 08:46 PM
Consider this... the Angels are the team closest geographically to Arizona (actually pretty much a tossup with the Dodgers). Does Coangelo want to send RJ to them?
I think the Padres are closer, and they're in contention too, and have been mentioned in rumors for some big names (Beltran, Kendall).

pissonthecubs
07-08-2004, 08:51 PM
THIS is teal. THIS is not. :D:
i see the color police are out again and in full force. at least the color they used was readable. the rules seem to be getting more and more strict...

pissonthecubs
07-08-2004, 08:55 PM
THIS IS NOT TEAL, DAMN IT!!! I WANT TO HAVE MY FRIGGIN' EYESITE PAST 30!! MODS PLEASE POST SOMETHING TO STOP THIS, I AM DYING OVER HERE!!!!!!!!!
i think you will keep your eyesight (get your spelling right by the way) past 30, but if you keep getting upset with people using the "wrong" color like you have been, i don't think your heart will last until 30!

soxwon
07-08-2004, 09:02 PM
the reason the post was in teal, was because the quote was in teal, i couldnt get it to go black, no biggie and im 48 i can see fine

owensmouth
07-08-2004, 11:03 PM
I think the Padres are closer, and they're in contention too, and have been mentioned in rumors for some big names (Beltran, Kendall).
You are correct. According to Yahoo Maps, the city of San Diego is 1 mile closer to Phoenix than is Anaheim. I stand corrected. I still wouldn't trade him to any of those three. I would especially get him out of the same division at least, if not out of the league.

samram
07-08-2004, 11:08 PM
You are correct. According to Yahoo Maps, the city of San Diego is 1 mile closer to Phoenix than is Anaheim. I stand corrected. I still wouldn't trade him to any of those three. I would especially get him out of the same division at least, if not out of the league.
That's what I used too. Maybe RJ would forgive them for that one mile?:D: My guess is that because 2 of the 3 top possibilities are in their division, he won't go anywhere.

Dadawg_77
07-09-2004, 08:40 AM
RJ would not be "icing on the cake" - he'd be the cake, the icecream, the dainish, the baklava, the perogis, the matza balls, the moo shu, the wasabi, the jalapenos and any other food item you can think of.

Add Randy Johnson to this team and we would be THE team to beat in MLB. An offesnse that is able to score like we do - plus the best 5 man rotation in hte AL, and probably in baseball.

It's only a dream, my friends, only a dream. (any chance it might come true?)


Note: I wonder what the KW haters would then say? We gave up too much because the prospects we traded some day will likely be HOFers? RJs strikeout rate is declining? He is going to revert to his highschool numbers? Who knows - but I imagine they'd bitch about something.
Well for our small minded friend, we only bitch about bad deals, which Kenny has a habit of doing. Getting RJ shouldn't be a bad deal.

greenpeach
07-09-2004, 10:19 AM
As was the case with Garcia, if the trading team is more interested in prospects, the Yankees have no chance. If it's money, then they're a player.
Bingo ! You hit the nail on the head. King George has bankrupted the Yankees talent rich farm system over the past 5 years. They have very few prospects left that will be ready for the majors anytime soon.

This fact is the major reason that KW was able to steal Freddie Garcia from the Yankees. Cashman had no prospects to give the Mariners.

Randar68
07-09-2004, 11:35 AM
Well for our small minded friend, we only bitch about bad deals, which Kenny has a habit of doing. Getting RJ shouldn't be a bad deal.
The FOBB bashed Olivo to prop-up the Bradford-Olivo deal and then bitched about the Garcia trade giving up a 5-tool future all-star catcher.

Sorry, why shouldn't he be skeptical that you guys will bitch about any and every deal? I think we have enough samples here to make a pretty likely assumption.

Dadawg_77
07-09-2004, 11:41 AM
The FOBB bashed Olivo to prop-up the Bradford-Olivo deal and then bitched about the Garcia trade giving up a 5-tool future all-star catcher.

Sorry, why shouldn't he be skeptical that you guys will bitch about any and every deal? I think we have enough samples here to make a pretty likely assumption.Well if read most of the people who thought the Olivio for Bradford deal wasn't the best deal since the Cubs traded away Lou Brock and mostly concerned over the loss of Reed. The only reason you want to compare the reaction to the two trades is because of your need to lump together the people who didn't like the trade because of the loss of Olivio with those whose main reason not to like the trade was the loss of Reed.

I never call Olivio a five tool catcher, you did.

jabrch
07-09-2004, 11:45 AM
The FOBB bashed Olivo to prop-up the Bradford-Olivo deal and then bitched about the Garcia trade giving up a 5-tool future all-star catcher.

Sorry, why shouldn't he be skeptical that you guys will bitch about any and every deal? I think we have enough samples here to make a pretty likely assumption.
Is DaDawg calling people names again? I am glad that litter (the namecalling) is removed from my screen.

It's funny Randar - of all KW's deals, only 2 didn't work out well or neutral for us. With all that these guys know about baseball - ya'd surely think someone would hire them over idiots like KW - no? lol KW has done a very good job with this team. The armchair GMs out here really make me laugh sometimes.

gosox41
07-09-2004, 05:31 PM
Is DaDawg calling people names again? I am glad that litter (the namecalling) is removed from my screen.

It's funny Randar - of all KW's deals, only 2 didn't work out well or neutral for us. With all that these guys know about baseball - ya'd surely think someone would hire them over idiots like KW - no? lol KW has done a very good job with this team. The armchair GMs out here really make me laugh sometimes.
Only 2??? Maybe we should start a FOKW club. He's done better lately, but please.

Also, I'm a Beane fan and don't recall ever calling Olivo a 5 tool player. I also don't recall complaining about the Garcia trade though I think losing Reed is going to hurt a lot more in the long run then losing Olivo.


Bob

SEALgep
07-09-2004, 05:46 PM
Well if read most of the people who thought the Olivio for Bradford deal wasn't the best deal since the Cubs traded away Lou Brock and mostly concerned over the loss of Reed. The only reason you want to compare the reaction to the two trades is because of your need to lump together the people who didn't like the trade because of the loss of Olivio with those whose main reason not to like the trade was the loss of Reed.

I never call Olivio a five tool catcher, you did.OLIVO

CWSGuy406
07-09-2004, 05:48 PM
Is DaDawg calling people names again? I am glad that litter (the namecalling) is removed from my screen.

It's funny Randar - of all KW's deals, only 2 didn't work out well or neutral for us. With all that these guys know about baseball - ya'd surely think someone would hire them over idiots like KW - no? lol KW has done a very good job with this team. The armchair GMs out here really make me laugh sometimes.
I also find that quite funny. You'd think these owners would be smarter than that and hire people like DD77, I mean, he is the be-all, end-all of baseball knowledge...

A. Cavatica
07-09-2004, 07:49 PM
This is very obviously a KW attempt to get some good press for trying to get Johnson -- with no intention or expectation of actually getting Johnson. The Sox would never provide the salary relief Arizona would be looking for, they've already traded their best prospect and their best young regular, and Johnson needs the Sox like a hole in the head.

See this for what it is: a facade.

pissonthecubs
07-09-2004, 08:00 PM
from what i heard today on ESPN, Randy Johnson said he would wave his no-trade clause, only for a top team that was in contention. and it sounds like the yankees are number 1 on his list.

SEALgep
07-09-2004, 08:27 PM
This is very obviously a KW attempt to get some good press for trying to get Johnson -- with no intention or expectation of actually getting Johnson. The Sox would never provide the salary relief Arizona would be looking for, they've already traded their best prospect and their best young regular, and Johnson needs the Sox like a hole in the head.

See this for what it is: a facade.I never heard KW claim we had a shot at him, so I find it hard to believe he is trying to pull a fast one over anyone. Besides, KW makes enough moves to not try to make himself look good on pretend moves.

lowesox
07-09-2004, 08:51 PM
This is very obviously a KW attempt to get some good press for trying to get Johnson -- with no intention or expectation of actually getting Johnson. The Sox would never provide the salary relief Arizona would be looking for, they've already traded their best prospect and their best young regular, and Johnson needs the Sox like a hole in the head.

See this for what it is: a facade.
PErsonally, I think it's an ego thing. Kenny was more than happy to give up the biggest bounty thinking that he was going to get the big prize of all the players available. Now that he sees there's a pitcher out there that blows the guy we got out of the water, he's trying to elevate himself again.

Personally, I think bringing in Johnson would cost us Garland (knowing KW) and a few other guys I'd hate to lose. So, I'll pass. Especially since we already have 4 good starters for a playoff series.

SEALgep
07-09-2004, 09:17 PM
PErsonally, I think it's an ego thing. Kenny was more than happy to give up the biggest bounty thinking that he was going to get the big prize of all the players available. Now that he sees there's a pitcher out there that blows the guy we got out of the water, he's trying to elevate himself again.

Personally, I think bringing in Johnson would cost us Garland (knowing KW) and a few other guys I'd hate to lose. So, I'll pass. Especially since we already have 4 good starters for a playoff series.Ego? The guy wants to win, what's wrong with that? If you think it has anything to do with anything else, you're crazy. The biggest prize? We needed pitching and he got it. What's the problem? You guys make it sound like it's a bad thing to go after the best pitching available.:?:

Mohoney
07-09-2004, 09:18 PM
I'd like to see that Randar. The pickins are slim. I was on the kendall-train right after the Garcia deal - and i still am. That would be plan A as far as I am concerned.

That said, if RJ is willing to come here, he is a much more valuable player than a catcher.

If we take on Unit's contract, will they give us a discount on Finley?

Basten
07-09-2004, 09:29 PM
Let's see, 24 million for a year and a half... Okay, how much would Randy Johnson be worth to the White Sox... Today the Sox had 27,000 for a day game. They had approximately the same for the past couple of games.

It appears that some people are beginning to believe that our beloved palehose are worth watching, and I suspect that the increased interest had something to do with "Freddie". By "Freddie", I'm referring to attitude, the attitude that KW is espousing when he goes out and gets the most desireable starting pitcher available at the time.

Now that we put togeather that remarkable win over the Angels, and have begun to put our hitting shoes on, adding Randy Johnson would say totally and completely "We're in this for the long haul."

So how many more people would be coming out to watch the Big Unit pitch? There's 13,000 more seats available, would they all be sold?

I think that, given the makeup of this team, and the already increased interest being shown by the fans, Randy Johnson is worth an additional 8,000 seats sold for his games. It wouldn't surprise me to hear the term "sold out", or "no tickets available".

In addition, he would keep raising the interest in the White Sox, which means more 30,000 plus games. In short, he would be the single most marketable addition that the White Sox can make, for both this year and the next.

That doesn't begin to include the White Sox merchandise. I will state here and now that the White Sox jersey with Johnson, R on the back will become this year's (and next year's) hottest jersey.

I think that the addition of Randy Johnson to this White Sox team would pay for himself.

Oh yeah, and next year is when the Sox are going to be signing a new radio contract. The additional interest generated by RJ would do well for the Sox.It's important to remember that 9 Mill of that 24 is deferred. When it comes to this organization, that is more than just a footnote. :D:

For the reasons you mentioned, getting Unit would make a ton of economic sense for the Sox (and little for D-Backs).

But let's not get carried away with the "Johnson = savior" angle. He is almost 41, his stuff is excellent but no longer great. Unless Garcia and Buerhle have a playoff of their careers as well, RJ will not single-handedly propel the team to the Series....which is ok, because postseason is a crapshoot anyway, but I am just saying that Arizona GM shouldn't flatter himself - he should not get to ravange our farm system in exchange for a pitcher who odds say could fall apart at ANY moment.

On the other hand, whoever mentioned the "prospect + PTBNL" is off his rocker. At the bare minimum, it would be 3 players/prospects - and as many as 5 or 6 if Arizona is to pick up some of that salary. Arizona GM's mama didn't raise no fool.

With that......DO IT, Kenny. Make that gamble. Unit is willing to wave his no-trade clause if the family set-up is just right and the team is a contender. 86 years and counting, people

RichH55
07-10-2004, 09:01 PM
It's important to remember that 9 Mill of that 24 is deferred. When it comes to this organization, that is more than just a footnote. :D:

For the reasons you mentioned, getting Unit would make a ton of economic sense for the Sox (and little for D-Backs).

But let's not get carried away with the "Johnson = savior" angle. He is almost 41, his stuff is excellent but no longer great. Unless Garcia and Buerhle have a playoff of their careers as well, RJ will not single-handedly propel the team to the Series....which is ok, because postseason is a crapshoot anyway, but I am just saying that Arizona GM shouldn't flatter himself - he should not get to ravange our farm system in exchange for a pitcher who odds say could fall apart at ANY moment.

On the other hand, whoever mentioned the "prospect + PTBNL" is off his rocker. At the bare minimum, it would be 3 players/prospects - and as many as 5 or 6 if Arizona is to pick up some of that salary. Arizona GM's mama didn't raise no fool.

With that......DO IT, Kenny. Make that gamble. Unit is willing to wave his no-trade clause if the family set-up is just right and the team is a contender. 86 years and counting, people

His stuff is no longer great? He's still top 3 for the Cy Young in the NL IMHO

He is still as likely as anyone in the league to throw a CG, SHO and this has already thrown a perfect game this year....no drop in velocity, etc

He is a top 5 SP, period. He's still on pace for 260-300 K...eats a ton of innings too.....No arm issues at all...The knee issue isn't in his favor of course, but its not really all that much an issue either

Its all a question of what we would have to give up....but I cant imagine a better player for us to pick up, and that includes Garcia

RichH55
07-10-2004, 09:03 PM
On the other hand, whoever mentioned the "prospect + PTBNL" is off his rocker. At the bare minimum, it would be 3 players/prospects - and as many as 5 or 6 if Arizona is to pick up some of that salary. Arizona GM's mama didn't raise no fool.

With that......DO IT, Kenny. Make that gamble. Unit is willing to wave his no-trade clause if the family set-up is just right and the team is a contender. 86 years and counting, people

Arizona's GM's mama didnt raise no fool? Robbie Alomar/Sexson deals this year alone. Unless Casey Fossum magically turns into Jason Schmidt then I'm not willing to say the Arizona GM is one of the better ones in the league

Cubbiesuck13
07-10-2004, 09:05 PM
His stuff is no longer great? He's still top 3 for the Cy Young in the NL IMHO

He is still as likely as anyone in the league to throw a CG, SHO and this has already thrown a perfect game this year....no drop in velocity, etc

He is a top 5 SP, period. He's still on pace for 260-300 K...eats a ton of innings too.....No arm issues at all...The knee issue isn't in his favor of course, but its not really all that much an issue either

Its all a question of what we would have to give up....but I cant imagine a better player for us to pick up, and that includes Garcia
his knee is an issue. the man cannot pitch without cortazone shots. he is the most probable pitcher to go down with an injury in my opinion.

Basten
07-11-2004, 03:42 PM
his knee is an issue. the man cannot pitch without cortazone shots. he is the most probable pitcher to go down with an injury in my opinion.
Exactly - once that knee goes, so do mechanics (for a 6' 11'' guy!) and he goes from a Cy Young to, well, what he was in 2003.

And his velocity is definatly down from his prime - even on FOX guns which are notoriously 1-2mph too fast. In his prime he threw 95-99; now he is 93-97 and his slider lost a couple of mph as well. He WILL be 41 later this year, afterall.

And that age they could go at ANY moment. The knee is the biggest concern, but that ever-important arm speed shouldn't be taken for granted as well, going on 41 and all.

Again.....it would make a world of sense for Sox to capitalize on our current situation (renovated park, good team, attendance mini-boom, etc).....but Randy Johnson trade value is not, nor should it be, as high as it was in 1999 or even in 2002. Sox are gonna have to exceed Boston's or Anaheim's offer (I hope Unit has enough character not to go to NY), gonna have to give up at least 2 premiere players and another couple of Mike Morse-type talented but raw throw-ins.

Do it Jerry, it will pay off in spades.

voodoochile
07-11-2004, 03:48 PM
Getting RJ would be great, BUT what will will have to give up for will NOT. Keep in mind how injury prone RJ is, it would totally suck giving up half of AAA for someone who may break down.
Actually, not. They can have the squad now that Borchard is up, IMO. Maybe keep Honel, but give them the rest and tak Johnson...

Basten
07-11-2004, 04:09 PM
Actually, not. They can have the squad now that Borchard is up, IMO. Maybe keep Honel, but give them the rest and tak Johnson...
Yeah, no kidding. How often does an oppostunity like this present itself if you're the White Sox? Once a decade?

Seeing Freddy getting smoked lately and knowing how much Sox hitter struggle with good pitchers in pressure games, well that only further underscores the above -- I have zero confidence in him as a staff ace.

RichH55
07-13-2004, 09:24 PM
his knee is an issue. the man cannot pitch without cortazone shots. he is the most probable pitcher to go down with an injury in my opinion.

Do you have a source that he needs "cortazone" shots before every start, or at least regularly?

I'm not trying to flame, just wondering if this is true information

I honestly haven't heard word one about the knee this year, and his numbers are still rather dominant....and yes with pitchers...I worry about arm injuries first and foremost...the rest will heal, though a back injury due to chronic misshapeness is more worrisome than a knee that should heal in the 8 weeks he was out last year

RichH55
07-13-2004, 09:25 PM
Exactly - once that knee goes, so do mechanics (for a 6' 11'' guy!) and he goes from a Cy Young to, well, what he was in 2003.

.
Disregarding the fact that you favor getting Randy anyway.....Would that fact that he is having a great 2004 point to the fact that the knee does not seem to be a problem?

Aidan
07-13-2004, 10:03 PM
Yeah, no kidding. How often does an oppostunity like this present itself if you're the White Sox? Once a decade?

Seeing Freddy getting smoked lately and knowing how much Sox hitter struggle with good pitchers in pressure games, well that only further underscores the above -- I have zero confidence in him as a staff ace. How is Freddy getting smoked lately?

1st start: 4 earned runs
2nd start: 4 earned runs
3rd start: 3 earned runs

I don't really consider that "getting smoked". If you said that Loaiza was "getting smoked lately" that would have made more sense.

Cubbiesuck13
07-13-2004, 11:28 PM
Do you have a source that he needs "cortazone" shots before every start, or at least regularly?
i am sure that i read it in SI. I will try and check on that for you later on (i am on watch right now) but it is possible that it has been reported on ESPN.com too.

Aidan
07-13-2004, 11:47 PM
i am sure that i read it in SI. I will try and check on that for you later on (i am on watch right now) but it is possible that it has been reported on ESPN.com too. I've heard this as well. Usually when you're 6'10", you get bad knees eventually. :rolleyes:

Basten
07-13-2004, 11:52 PM
i am sure that i read it in SI. I will try and check on that for you later on (i am on watch right now) but it is possible that it has been reported on ESPN.com too.
Lubricating injections.

jabrch
07-14-2004, 12:06 AM
Yeah, no kidding. How often does an oppostunity like this present itself if you're the White Sox? Once a decade?

Seeing Freddy getting smoked lately and knowing how much Sox hitter struggle with good pitchers in pressure games, well that only further underscores the above -- I have zero confidence in him as a staff ace.

I hope Freddy keeps getting "smoked" like he has. 7 IP per start and 4 runs or less in each one, at USCF twice and Minnesota once? That's the kind of smoke I wouldn't mind seeing more of!

Basten
07-14-2004, 04:22 AM
I hope Freddy keeps getting "smoked" like he has. 7 IP per start and 4 runs or less in each one, at USCF twice and Minnesota once? That's the kind of smoke I wouldn't mind seeing more of!4 ER in 7 innings = ERA of 5.00
3 ER in 6 innings = ERA of 4.50
3 ER in 6.2 innings = ERA of 4.00

And he's lucky Carlos took away that HR, too - would have been 6 in just 3 outings - as opposed to 8 given up all year with the M's.

"Smoked" may have been too strong a word, but the fact remains: away from Safeco, Freddy hasn't been able to come close to "ace" production, 2001 possibly excepted.

I am more than fine with Buerhle-Garcia/Garcia-Buerhle as # 2 and #3 in the playoffs. Unit would be most welcome as a #1 :gulp:

Flight #24
07-14-2004, 09:43 AM
4 ER in 7 innings = ERA of 5.00
3 ER in 6 innings = ERA of 4.50
3 ER in 6.2 innings = ERA of 4.00

And he's lucky Carlos took away that HR, too - would have been 6 in just 3 outings - as opposed to 8 given up all year with the M's.

"Smoked" may have been too strong a word, but the fact remains: away from Safeco, Freddy hasn't been able to come close to "ace" production, 2001 possibly excepted.

I am more than fine with Buerhle-Garcia/Garcia-Buerhle as # 2 and #3 in the playoffs. Unit would be most welcome as a #1 :gulp:

While I'm not here to say that ERA's not an important stat, some of it is related to luck in terms of the timing of hits(i.e. a 3-run HR v. a solo shot). Now obviously the pitcher also plays a role because it's up to aces to make clutch pitches with men on base, but I thnk ERA doesn't necessarily give a complete picture. Some other important stats for Freddy during his short Sox tenure:
WHIP: 1.12
K/BB: 7.67
K/9: 10.02
GB/FB: 1.35

If he maintains these stats, I'd expect his ERA to drop. It's a very small sample size, but these are the ancillary stats of an ace pitcher. Looking at everything including ERA, ERA actually appears to be an outlier, which is why I think it will start to come down (unless the other stats start to rise).

SoxxoS
07-14-2004, 10:03 AM
Good post, Flight.

You can't look at a pitchers effectiveness by just looking at ERA. It's a much bigger picture. There is going to be a slight dropoff in numbers from Safeco to the Cell...no doubt. But that is going to be pretty much for every starter that pitches at the Cell. Freddie will just make more starts than most there...

I think the key stat is "quality starts." Even though the Cell is becoming Coors Lite (I just thought of that, I like it :D: ) Freddie should still be making quality starts almost every time out.

Jerko
07-14-2004, 10:29 AM
I am interested to see how Garcia will do now since his "first start for the White Sox", his "First home start for the White Sox", and his "first start against his former team" are over. That shouldn't have anything to with anything, but you can never count out the "mental" aspects of this team.

Basten
07-14-2004, 11:34 AM
While I'm not here to say that ERA's not an important stat, some of it is related to luck in terms of the timing of hits(i.e. a 3-run HR v. a solo shot). Now obviously the pitcher also plays a role because it's up to aces to make clutch pitches with men on base, but I thnk ERA doesn't necessarily give a complete picture. Some other important stats for Freddy during his short Sox tenure:
WHIP: 1.12
K/BB: 7.67
K/9: 10.02
GB/FB: 1.35

If he maintains these stats, I'd expect his ERA to drop. It's a very small sample size, but these are the ancillary stats of an ace pitcher. Looking at everything including ERA, ERA actually appears to be an outlier, which is why I think it will start to come down (unless the other stats start to rise).Yeah, I mentioned his peripherals and the stellar 3/23 BB/K ratio in 20 innings.

It's clear that he is going AT the hitters, which someone with his stuff absolutely should (hear that, Kerry Woods?).

However, it's also obvious that he hangs his slider and throws a get-me-over-fastball just a wee bit too much - attacking hitters and throwing strikes is good, but not if you groove too many fat ones just to avoid falling behind in the count or walking a batter. Sometimes you gotta make like Jamie Moyer and not give in to hitters and try to out-guess them even if you have overwhelming stuff -- Carlos Zambrano would rather walk your ass than give you anything good to drive for instance, so when he misses, he misses out of the zone.

Again, Lee's rob-job would have been Freddy's 6 dinger. Unacceptable.

And Jerko, I don't care about the mental-schmental crap - by now he should be used to thriving under pressure/expectations. Game 1 of ALDS at Fenway or Bronx Zoo won't be any easier....by which I mean, it will be hell.

Freddy will be fine, I agree. I just hope Sox get Unit and take pressure off Garcia and Buerhle (and hopefully Loaiza should Sox get past ALDS), which ought to make them more effective as well..:gulp::supernana:

jabrch
07-14-2004, 12:12 PM
Carlos Zambrano would rather walk your ass than give you anything good to drive for instance, so when he misses, he misses out of the zone.
actually, that's not true. Zambrano is a low-ball pitcher. He throws a hard sinker and a sinking 2 seam fastball. That's why he doesn't give up HRs. It's not that he tries to control his misses to be out of the zone. Zambrano is horribly inefficient with his pitches - going too deep into counts and walking hitters. He ran out of gas last year and he is struggling already this year recently. (hasn't gone more than 6.2 in his last 5 outings and raised his ERA from 2.2 to 2.6 over that time) That said, I'd love to see him as a White Sox - he just needs to learn a bit more of what Freddy knows already. You don't have to make 140 perfect pitches in a game to win. Sometimes the best thing is to let hitters hit you.

Basten
07-14-2004, 12:58 PM
actually, that's not true. Zambrano is a low-ball pitcher. He throws a hard sinker and a sinking 2 seam fastball. That's why he doesn't give up HRs. It's not that he tries to control his misses to be out of the zone. Zambrano is horribly inefficient with his pitches - going too deep into counts and walking hitters. He ran out of gas last year and he is struggling already this year recently. (hasn't gone more than 6.2 in his last 5 outings and raised his ERA from 2.2 to 2.6 over that time) That said, I'd love to see him as a White Sox - he just needs to learn a bit more of what Freddy knows already. You don't have to make 140 perfect pitches in a game to win. Sometimes the best thing is to let hitters hit you. Zambrano also consciously misses with a four-seamer up/away, his slider down in, etc this year in addition to the natural two-seamer/sinker bore.

You're overstimating his pitch count - he is averaging 109.9 pitches per start to Freddy's 107.9. Zambrano is younger and a little quicker than Freddy, so the 2 pitch difference is neglegible.

And no, going after hitters ALL the time is NOT necessarily a good thing - that allows them to time you better and betrays your pitch pattern.

When Freddy has a 3/23 BB/K ratio AND he doesn't give up 5-6 homers in 3 outings, then we'll know he is ready. J/K :)

Dadawg_77
07-14-2004, 01:40 PM
While I'm not here to say that ERA's not an important stat, some of it is related to luck in terms of the timing of hits(i.e. a 3-run HR v. a solo shot). Now obviously the pitcher also plays a role because it's up to aces to make clutch pitches with men on base, but I thnk ERA doesn't necessarily give a complete picture. Some other important stats for Freddy during his short Sox tenure:
WHIP: 1.12
K/BB: 7.67
K/9: 10.02
GB/FB: 1.35

If he maintains these stats, I'd expect his ERA to drop. It's a very small sample size, but these are the ancillary stats of an ace pitcher. Looking at everything including ERA, ERA actually appears to be an outlier, which is why I think it will start to come down (unless the other stats start to rise).
The thing is I wouldn't expect those to maintain at such a high level. Those rates are just blowing away what he was doing in Seattle earlier this year. He should regress to his mean to about K/BB around 2, K/9 around 7 and GB/FB around 1. Unless Cooper is a god, I expect Garcia to pitch worse then he is now.

jabrch
07-14-2004, 02:40 PM
Zambrano also consciously misses with a four-seamer up/away, his slider down in, etc this year in addition to the natural two-seamer/sinker bore.

You're overstimating his pitch count - he is averaging 109.9 pitches per start to Freddy's 107.9. Zambrano is younger and a little quicker than Freddy, so the 2 pitch difference is neglegible.

And no, going after hitters ALL the time is NOT necessarily a good thing - that allows them to time you better and betrays your pitch pattern.

When Freddy has a 3/23 BB/K ratio AND he doesn't give up 5-6 homers in 3 outings, then we'll know he is ready. J/K :)

agreed - Don't you think that Garcia will go deeper into games (not thinking pitchcount as much as IP) than Zambrano as the season progresses?

Basten
07-14-2004, 03:12 PM
agreed - Don't you think that Garcia will go deeper into games (not thinking pitchcount as much as IP) than Zambrano as the season progresses?
No. Zambrano is averaging only 2 pitches more per outing, big deal.

And I never really cared about going deep into games. Give me a pitcher who can go 7 innings and give up 2 runs over one who will go 8+ and give up 4 runs.

I am confident in Politte (lately he's been picking up where he left off in ST where he was uhnittable), Marte and Shingo to do their job if the starter can't go the distance.

But really, I am not sure what we're arguing here anymore. Freddy hasn't been an ace since 2001 when you adjust his numbers to Safeco (he is a #2), and I personally want Randy Johnson in good ol' Black and White. The end.

DaveIsHere
07-14-2004, 03:15 PM
HE IS NOT COMING HERE SO IN THAT CASE
:whocares

Aidan
07-14-2004, 03:29 PM
HE IS NOT COMING HERE SO IN THAT CASE
:whocares
Agreed. Look at the picture again. RJ won't be on the White Sox.

Basten
07-14-2004, 03:46 PM
Actually, not. They can have the squad now that Borchard is up, IMO. Maybe keep Honel, but give them the rest and tak Johnson...Isn't Honel out for the year?

I thought he lost a lot of velocity and Sox can't figure it out.

But yeah, I don't think there should be an untouchable prospect when it comes to RJ.

Basten
07-14-2004, 03:58 PM
HE IS NOT COMING HERE SO IN THAT CASE
:whocares


3 weeks ago: Arizona will not trade their only marketable commodity, forget it
2 weeks ago: Randy Johnson has his ring, he won't wave the no-trade clause
1 week ago: He won't go to Boston, but Anaheim is possible - his Cali home
5 days ago: KW was has money to spend and was asking Zona about RJ
4 days ago: RJ expressed willinngess to go to a contender
2 days ago: RJ is feuding with Shilling, but Boston will get him anyway

Tomorrow: White Sox wise up and make an offer Arizona can't refuse. Every accomodation is made with respect to Unit's family.


Unlikely, but I hope to God it happens.

Flight #24
07-14-2004, 04:07 PM
The thing is I wouldn't expect those to maintain at such a high level. Those rates are just blowing away what he was doing in Seattle earlier this year. He should regress to his mean to about K/BB around 2, K/9 around 7 and GB/FB around 1. Unless Cooper is a god, I expect Garcia to pitch worse then he is now.
True, but I wouldn't be surprised if his ancillary #s improve from his '04 Seattle #s due to moving to a team that has a chance to win something (rather than primarily "punching the clock"), joining a clubhouse where he feels very comfortable (the Ozzie factor), and not feeling like he has to be perfect or he'll lose 1-0 or 2-1.

That last point may also explain something about his HR rate, since he seems to be going after hitters a lot more, thereby getting more Ks, fewer BBs, but giving up more HRs. He may not be as worried about his ERA as he is about Ws. Finding the balance is what he & Coop will have to work on.

Bottom line, I'd expect his ancillaries to decline somewhat and his ERA to drop some as well (from it's 3-game level). I do think he's pitchign and will continue to pitch like a #1 starter.

AZSoxFAN
07-14-2004, 04:56 PM
Randy is very happy in Phoenix, and he's a millionaire many times over, so he doesn't HAVE to do anything. That said, he will waive his no-trade clause if he feels both he and the DBacks get a good deal. (I can think of dozens of players who live in Phoenix and play pro baseball elsewhere - so playing elsewhere is not out of the question) A trade is a possibility, and why not the South Side...Randy has an attitude that South Siders can enjoy. He'd love to wear black, it suits his approach to the game.

It's all about which club will strap ($$$$$$) it on to get the deal done. I'm not optimistic, although the two Jerry's - C and R - are buddies of sorts.

By the way - he may have a limited number of starts left in his arm, but have you considered what kind of closer he'd be?

Basten
07-14-2004, 05:11 PM
Randy is very happy in Phoenix, and he's a millionaire many times over, so he doesn't HAVE to do anything. That said, he will waive his no-trade clause if he feels both he and the DBacks get a good deal. (I can think of dozens of players who live in Phoenix and play pro baseball elsewhere - so playing elsewhere is not out of the question) A trade is a possibility, and why not the South Side...Randy has an attitude that South Siders can enjoy. He'd love to wear black, it suits his approach to the game.

It's all about which club will strap ($$$$$$) it on to get the deal done. I'm not optimistic, although the two Jerry's - C and R - are buddies of sorts.

By the way - he may have a limited number of starts left in his arm, but have you considered what kind of closer he'd be?
Last thing first-- Randy Johnson as closer? Huh? When your team is losing
5-2 because it has an average pitcher starting the game, who your closer is DOESN'T MATTER. Besides, Shingo has been near-flawless in save situations, how much better can Big Unit be?

The reason RJ might want to come to Chicago is because...well, it's not NY, Boston or LA. He'd be a legend here if Sox win the Series. And if they don't, the media will not crucify him. I figured after stagnating in Arizona for the last 3 years, he might want to take on a big challenge.

Cubbiesuck13
07-14-2004, 06:48 PM
i am sure that i read it in SI. I will try and check on that for you later on (i am on watch right now) but it is possible that it has been reported on ESPN.com too.
sports illustrated, july 5, 2004 page 52

'in 2003 he looked as if he were done, going 6-8 with a 4.26 ERA in 18 starts and spending 14 weeks on the DL because of an injured right knee that required surgery. "Last year I was pitching on one leg," says Johnson, who has virtually no carticalge in his right knee and takes injections to lubricate the joint.'


sorry for confusing that with cortazone shots. anyone know what cortazone acually does?

beckett21
07-14-2004, 08:38 PM
sports illustrated, july 5, 2004 page 52

'in 2003 he looked as if he were done, going 6-8 with a 4.26 ERA in 18 starts and spending 14 weeks on the DL because of an injured right knee that required surgery. "Last year I was pitching on one leg," says Johnson, who has virtually no carticalge in his right knee and takes injections to lubricate the joint.'


sorry for confusing that with cortazone shots. anyone know what cortazone acually does?"Cortisone" comes in different forms, long and short acting. It is essentially an injectible steroid. It is catabolic, meaning it *breaks down* cells (decreases inflammation like with arthritis and tendonitis); as opposed to anabolic steroids which are used to build muscle mass. Totally opposite effect.

Prolonged use or multiple cortisone injections can be counterproductive, as they can weaken tendons/ligaments to the point of rupture or they *mask* pain to a degree that you can actually be doing further damage to yourself without even knowing it. They do not *cure* anything; they only decrease inflammation, thereby decreasing pain temporarily. If the cause of the inflammation is not addressed in the first place, the inflammation and pain will return eventually once the medication wears off which could be weeks to months depending on the type of *cortisone* used.

The lubricating injections are most likely something like Synvisc, which basically does just that: it replaces joint fluid and serves to better lubricate the joint to allow easier movement and by doing so reduce pain. Again these eventually wear off, but to my knowledge multiple injections of this type are not harmful; all they do is serve to somewhat *cushion* the joint and have a WD-40 type of effect.

Consider RJ the Tin Man :redneck

doublem23
07-14-2004, 09:54 PM
Corey McPherrin on Fox-32 News just reported that "his sources" are claiming that Randy Johnson would only waive his no-trade clause to go to the Yankees or perhaps the Cardinals.

Don't hold your breath.

DickAllen72
07-14-2004, 09:56 PM
Corey McPherrin on Fox-32 News just reported that "his sources" are claiming that Randy Johnson would only waive his no-trade clause to go to the Yankees or perhaps the Cardinals.

Don't hold your breath.

If that's the case, all I can say is......"Go Cardinals!!!"

Basten
07-14-2004, 09:58 PM
If that's the case, all I can say is......"Go Cardinals!!!"
Amen.

Aidan
07-14-2004, 10:04 PM
Corey McPherrin on Fox-32 News just reported that "his sources" are claiming that Randy Johnson would only waive his no-trade clause to go to the Yankees or perhaps the Cardinals.

Don't hold your breath.Just heard that. And since Boston can't get RJ, they would want Clement for Nomar which the Cubs won't do.

I guess the Cubs go to Plan #2. They will trade Alex Gonzalez + pitching prospect to Montreal for Orlando Cabrera.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=chc
Going, going, Gonzalez?
With Alex Gonzalez (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6077) slated to return from his rehab stint at Triple-A Iowa in another week, the Cubs may be seeking to package him in a deal for another shortstop, the Chicago Tribune reported. General manager Jim Hendry declined to discuss a report that the Cubs have spoken to Montreal about 29-year-old Orlando Cabrera (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5900), who's hitting .286 in July after a rough start. The Cubs likely would have to give up a decent pitching prospect along with Gonzalez, who will become a free agent at the end of the year and isn't in the team's 2005 plans.

SoxxoS
07-14-2004, 10:21 PM
If they give up Beltran, Brownlie or Guzman (just speculating, b/c they are going to want pitching) and A-Gon for Cabrera, that would be an awful trade. I don't think Cabrera is that much of an improvement over A-Gon, anyway.

Aidan
07-14-2004, 11:01 PM
If they give up Beltran, Brownlie or Guzman (just speculating, b/c they are going to want pitching) and A-Gon for Cabrera, that would be an awful trade. I don't think Cabrera is that much of an improvement over A-Gon, anyway.He's really not that much of an upgrade. A-Gon and Cabrera are both good gloves with Cabrera having a little bit better bat.

RichH55
07-15-2004, 03:00 AM
Last thing first-- Randy Johnson as closer? Huh? When your team is losing
5-2 because it has an average pitcher starting the game, who your closer is DOESN'T MATTER. Besides, Shingo has been near-flawless in save situations, how much better can Big Unit be?

The reason RJ might want to come to Chicago is because...well, it's not NY, Boston or LA. He'd be a legend here if Sox win the Series. And if they don't, the media will not crucify him. I figured after stagnating in Arizona for the last 3 years, he might want to take on a big challenge.
Well I agree on the legend mention

Wouldnt that be true with Boston as well? They are pretty damn futile over their history as well

Basten
07-15-2004, 10:11 AM
Well I agree on the legend mention

Wouldnt that be true with Boston as well? They are pretty damn futile over their history as wellYes, but not to that extent.

Boston hasn't won the Series in, um, a while, but they've been TO the Series quite a few times, had many superstars go through the organization; fans and media over there are very demanding. After coming up so short last year, and knowing that this could be the last year for the current core of players, there are HUGE expectations in Bawston. Anything short of making it to the Series will be deemed a failure.

And even if he wins the Ring, he'd have to share it with his "pal" Shilling again, as well as such known egomaniacs as Pedro, Nomar, Manny and of course the celebrity wunderkind GM Theo Epstein.

Chicago will "forgive" him if Sox "only" make it to ALCS, and he should be smart to realize that with him in the rotation, White Sox have probably as good a chance to go to the Series as Carmines do because Pedro is not quite the same, Shilling is banged up and Nomar's wrist and achilles might make him a glorified DH. White Sox only have the ever-overachieving Minnesota in front of them, while Bos will be engaged in a dog-fight with Angels/Oakland as well as Texas if they ever decide to add some pitching for the wild card.

Of course if by some chance White Sox DO win it all with Unit at the forefront, he WILL be an instant legend locally and nationally. Breaking Chicago's 176-year Curse? Yeah, I think that's worth changing your kids' summer vacation plans.....

Did I mention our ST base is in Tuscon? :bandance:

PorkChopExpress
07-15-2004, 10:18 AM
Did I mention our ST base is in Tuscon? :bandance:
I am surprised people don't mention this more often. That came up early on in these rumors that he did not want east coast teams because he would be there all year whereas on other teams he could at least be at home in AZ during ST.

Basten
07-15-2004, 11:28 AM
I am surprised people don't mention this more often. .Of course small-time thinkers never bother with particulars.

They hear "Randy Johnson" and "White Sox" and think "never!"

Whereas in reality, if Sox come up with the best offer, Unit may very well end up in Chicago.

It's a long shot, but certainly within the realm of possible.

Paulwny
07-15-2004, 12:56 PM
Of course small-time thinkers never bother with particulars.

They hear "Randy Johnson" and "White Sox" and think "never!"

Whereas in reality, if Sox come up with the best offer, Unit may very well end up in Chicago.

It's a long shot, but certainly within the realm of possible.

And some big-time thinkers live in a dream world.

Basten
07-15-2004, 03:22 PM
I'll say this much: with every win on the road trip, the likelyhood of Randy Johnson willing to come to Chicago goes up by 5-10%

Now is the time for this team to play like they haven't played since June of 2000 and break the ****ing West Coast Curse. If they could somehow build a 4-5 game lead in the next 10 days, the whole, um, situation might become all that more appealing to the Big Muskateer.

That's one of the reasons the recent 5-game losing streak was so horrible - at the time I thought it took us out of the running for RJ - if he indeed was on the fence.

Cubsuck_a_lot
07-19-2004, 04:41 PM
RJ would be great to have here in Chicago (the SS at least) but i still think that kris benson would make a better and more durable addition to the rotation, plus he is someone the sox could sign to a long-term deal, seeing as how he's young and coming into his own.

also, give jamie burke a tad more time. i know its already half-way through the season, but he just started getting into games. we wont need a catcher once he finds himself in the ML as long as alomar ('95 WS) stays healthy. unfortunately, davis may not be the same case.

oh yeah, and the cubsuck.