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Flight #24
07-07-2004, 01:22 PM
Came across this recap of the "big trades" from last year on Sportsline. Here's the relevant Sox portion:


Roberto Alomar trade, N.Y. Mets-Chicago White Sox, July 1, 2003: At the time, all the talk surrounding this deal was how Royce Ring, the top prospect the Mets acquired, would quickly assume the closer duties in New York. However, 12 months later, Braden Looper is firmly entrenched in the job -- at least through 2005 -- and Ring isn't even closing for Triple-A Norfolk. His 3.74 ERA isn't bad, but he has been hardly extraordinary this season. It's rare that minor-league closers become elite big-league stoppers, and at this point Ring has little value even in long-term keeper formats. Among the other prospects the Mets acquired, reliever Edwin Almonte has since been released and is with Boston's Triple-A affiliate in Pawtucket, while infielder Anthony Salvo is with the independent Long Island Ducks.

Carl Everett trade, Texas-Chicago White Sox, July 1, 2003: Of the three prospects the Rangers acquired, outfielder Anthony Webster was the cream of the crop at the time, having entered 2003 ranked as Chicago's No. 3 prospect by Baseball America. The man some have said resembles a young Marquis Grissom has been somewhat humbled at Class A Stockton, where he's batting .267-7-39-17 in 76 games, but it's easy to forget he's still just 21 and has a few years to fully develop. Frankie Francisco, who has a lightning arm but struggles on occasion with his command, has done a fine job as a middle reliever for the Rangers this season but would need a few years of refinement to develop into a closer. Josh Rupe is a decent young starter, but his development was set back two months by soreness in his forearm. He's at least two years away from the majors.
So, while we didn't get where we wanted to, it appears that the "stripping of the farm system" that many like to talk about is a lot of smoke about nothing. We've traded little of actual value, and while that might not say anything good about the Sox drafting ability, it does say that KW isn't bad at judging which prospects will develop and which won't. The Todd Ritchie deal aside, I can't think of one prospect that we've lost that went on to accomplish anything at the major league level. It's still early, but the early returns are solidly on KW's side in that he got guys who enhanced the team's chances of short-term success without giving up much of anything of long term value.

hold2dibber
07-07-2004, 01:30 PM
So, while we didn't get where we wanted to, it appears that the "stripping of the farm system" that many like to talk about is a lot of smoke about nothing. We've traded little of actual value, and while that might not say anything good about the Sox drafting ability, it does say that KW isn't bad at judging which prospects will develop and which won't. The Todd Ritchie deal aside, I can't think of one prospect that we've lost that went on to accomplish anything at the major league level. It's still early, but the early returns are solidly on KW's side in that he got guys who enhanced the team's chances of short-term success without giving up much of anything of long term value.
Well said and I completely agree. However, I suspect that the recent trade for Garcia will tilt the other way and that Reed and Olivo will go onto very productive careers (I don't know enough about Morse to comment, but I've heard a lot of people say he has a chance to be a good MLB player, too).

joeywpb
07-07-2004, 01:47 PM
This is yahoo fantasy talking about Bartolo Colon

-He was supposed to make the difference in Anaheim's rotation - now he's struggling to stay in it. Monday's L.A. Times reported that Colon would remain in the rotation. The mere fact that it's up for debate speaks volumes about his season. Adrian Beltre took him deep twice and then Robin Ventura added insult by clubbing his first homer in 94 at bats. Too promising to drop and virtually worthless on the trade market, Colon is every fantasy manager's nightmare.

This is not just fantasy nightmare(How are the angels still contending??). Imagine if we would of re-signed him. He blew last season, and still got paid. Garcia is much younger-"fitter", and seems to not really worry about a huge pay day. We signed him in like a blink, and once he settles in should really give us a boost this second half.

We have Uribe(for Miles) in stead of Alomar-good for us, and Rowand instead of Everett-good for us(Everett has already been on the DL and was a temp player all the way). Like you said -all of these moves and only minimum damage done. He gets a mulligan w/ Ritchie, but other than that not to shabby. Mr. Zero is a great find. Out of all of these move getting rid of Koch still has to be the best one, but saying that, trading for him was not to good. Time will tell, but Olivo did come w/ Billy and gave us the means to get Freddy??

Flight #24
07-07-2004, 01:50 PM
Time will tell, but Olivo did come w/ Billy and gave us the means to get Freddy??
Actually, Olivo came for Chad Bradford (IIRC, the year before we trade for Koch).

jeremyb1
07-07-2004, 01:58 PM
Came across this recap of the "big trades" from last year on Sportsline. Here's the relevant Sox portion:

So, while we didn't get where we wanted to, it appears that the "stripping of the farm system" that many like to talk about is a lot of smoke about nothing. We've traded little of actual value, and while that might not say anything good about the Sox drafting ability, it does say that KW isn't bad at judging which prospects will develop and which won't. The Todd Ritchie deal aside, I can't think of one prospect that we've lost that went on to accomplish anything at the major league level. It's still early, but the early returns are solidly on KW's side in that he got guys who enhanced the team's chances of short-term success without giving up much of anything of long term value.

First of all, no one ever really argued that we gave up a ton in the Everett and Alomar deals. I was disappointed to see Ring and Webster go but Webster had started to fizzle out a bit prior to the deal and it looks as though he's taken that slump with him into this season. Ring hasn't been stellar this year but I'm sure he'd be better than Mike Jackson (as would Francisco it appears), so it's not like there was no loss on that front. We'll have to see what happens with Rupe. His injury sounds minor and it's not as though we kept all the healthy starting pitchers with Wing and Honel going down with similar problems.

As far as comparing those deals to the Garcia deal, there is simply no comparison whatsoever. KW himself would tell you that the price for Garcia was much higher. With the exception of Ring, the prospects we gave up for Garcia were in AA or above whereas this was not the case last season. Players further from the majors are much more volatile and therefore much more likely to collapse before making it to the bigs. Additionally, even the ceilings of the players we gave up weren't comperable. Lets see, a middle of the rotation pitcher or a potentially All-Star caliber catcher? A .400 OBP CF that can hit leadoff for a decade or a solid closer? KW didn't get burned in those deals because he dealt for players without an exorbitant price tag. He made a decision to make moves without mortgaging the future. I think he might tell you there's a decent chance he hurt our future with the Garcia moves. By his own admission he thought the price was too high and only decided to make the deal at the last second.

harwar
07-07-2004, 02:00 PM
Yea,Cotts came with koch and i wouldn't be surprised if hes' a fairly reliable starter in a couple of years.

Flight #24
07-07-2004, 02:11 PM
First of all, no one ever really argued that we gave up a ton in the Everett and Alomar deals. I was disappointed to see Ring and Webster go but Webster had started to fizzle out a bit prior to the deal and it looks as though he's taken that slump with him into this season. Ring hasn't been stellar this year but I'm sure he'd be better than Mike Jackson (as would Francisco it appears), so it's not like there was no loss on that front. We'll have to see what happens with Rupe. His injury sounds minor and it's not as though we kept all the healthy starting pitchers with Wing and Honel going down with similar problems.

As far as comparing those deals to the Garcia deal, there is simply no comparison whatsoever. KW himself would tell you that the price for Garcia was much higher. With the exception of Ring, the prospects we gave up for Garcia were in AA or above whereas this was not the case last season. Players further from the majors are much more volatile and therefore much more likely to collapse before making it to the bigs. Additionally, even the ceilings of the players we gave up weren't comperable. Lets see, a middle of the rotation pitcher or a potentially All-Star caliber catcher? A .400 OBP CF that can hit leadoff for a decade or a solid closer? KW didn't get burned in those deals because he dealt for players without an exorbitant price tag. He made a decision to make moves without mortgaging the future. I think he might tell you there's a decent chance he hurt our future with the Garcia moves. By his own admission he thought the price was too high and only decided to make the deal at the last second.
You're addressing a different point than I was. I was pointing out that the many people who blithely throw off comments like "KW's stripped our farm system" are incorrect and that if you look at the prospects we've given up one (excluding the Garcia deal), the only one of any value is Kip Wells, with Frankie Francisco having some marginal value. To me, that's an indication that KW has a good eye for those prospects that will develop, which is an important skill to have.

As for the Garcia trade, IIRC, KW's comments were that the deal the M's wanted was too high (Crede+Olivo), but when they dropped from Crede to Reed that he agreed to do the deal. I think he's said that he paid a high price, but I can't recall him ever saying it was "too high". It would in fact be ludicrous of him to say "I overpaid".

And while we've had this debate before (among many others!:cool: ), the guys you classify as a "potentially All-Star caliber catcher" and "A .400 OBP CF that can hit leadoff for a decade" can also be classified as a "catcher who hits <.200 v. righties" and a "corner OF prospect with a dominant 250ABs in class AA and very good other numbers".

Putting either in the ASG or HOF is just a wee bit premature.

jabrch
07-07-2004, 02:31 PM
And while we've had this debate before (among many others!:cool: ), the guys you classify as a "potentially All-Star caliber catcher" and "A .400 OBP CF that can hit leadoff for a decade" can also be classified as a "catcher who hits <.200 v. righties" and a "corner OF prospect with a dominant 250ABs in class AA and very good other numbers".

Putting either in the ASG or HOF is just a wee bit premature.
What's most funny is that three weeks ago KW was an idiot for trading Bradford for Olivo. Now it's a potentially all-star calibre catcher. And if KW did nothing, the same whiners would have bitched that we were going into the playoffs without a strong enough pitching staff.

cornball
07-07-2004, 02:40 PM
First of all, no one ever really argued that we gave up a ton in the Everett and Alomar deals. I was disappointed to see Ring and Webster go but Webster had started to fizzle out a bit prior to the deal and it looks as though he's taken that slump with him into this season. Ring hasn't been stellar this year but I'm sure he'd be better than Mike Jackson (as would Francisco it appears), so it's not like there was no loss on that front. We'll have to see what happens with Rupe. His injury sounds minor and it's not as though we kept all the healthy starting pitchers with Wing and Honel going down with similar problems.

As far as comparing those deals to the Garcia deal, there is simply no comparison whatsoever. KW himself would tell you that the price for Garcia was much higher. With the exception of Ring, the prospects we gave up for Garcia were in AA or above whereas this was not the case last season. Players further from the majors are much more volatile and therefore much more likely to collapse before making it to the bigs. Additionally, even the ceilings of the players we gave up weren't comperable. Lets see, a middle of the rotation pitcher or a potentially All-Star caliber catcher? A .400 OBP CF that can hit leadoff for a decade or a solid closer? KW didn't get burned in those deals because he dealt for players without an exorbitant price tag. He made a decision to make moves without mortgaging the future. I think he might tell you there's a decent chance he hurt our future with the Garcia moves. By his own admission he thought the price was too high and only decided to make the deal at the last second.
I can recall several people on this board angry we lost Ring.

Secondly, the majority of big league players are not playing for the team that drafted them. I think KW has done a good job of trying to get the team to be competitve year in and year out. He takes risks, which is what you need to do when you are not spending in the top 30% of the league.

You always want to develop the players in your system because it is cheaper, however the need is to win on the big stage....not the farm.

The Garcia move was risky, but now he is signed for 3 additional years. Pitching wins. Olivio is a fine player, while Reed is just projection. With Garcia signed, I think it is a fair deal. Hopefully FG will continue to perform at a high level over the next few years.

jabrch
07-07-2004, 02:49 PM
I can recall several people on this board angry we lost Ring.

And I remember people bitching that we gave up too much for Everett also.

It's the nature of the beast. The brilliant armschair GMs always know more than Dumb-Kenny - so they criticize every chance they get using the same tired old arguements.

It's all black and white in the eyes of the KW-Haters.

Dadawg_77
07-07-2004, 03:09 PM
I can recall several people on this board angry we lost Ring.

Secondly, the majority of big league players are not playing for the team that drafted them. I think KW has done a good job of trying to get the team to be competitve year in and year out. He takes risks, which is what you need to do when you are not spending in the top 30% of the league.

You always want to develop the players in your system because it is cheaper, however the need is to win on the big stage....not the farm.

The Garcia move was risky, but now he is signed for 3 additional years. Pitching wins. Olivio is a fine player, while Reed is just projection. With Garcia signed, I think it is a fair deal. Hopefully FG will continue to perform at a high level over the next few years.
But its not the same people mad that we lost Reed.

I hate this excuse if Kenny makes a mistake, that he was at least trying. I don't care about trying, I care about success, which Kenny has had a tough time attaining.

You can hope FG will "continue" to perform at a high level the only problem with that, his high level was the first half of this year. So I would get my expectations up to high, we are seeing a pitcher who had a great season coming back to earth on the Sox currently.

Flight #24
07-07-2004, 03:26 PM
You can hope FG will "continue" to perform at a high level the only problem with that, his high level was the first half of this year. So I would get my expectations up to high, we are seeing a pitcher who had a great season coming back to earth on the Sox currently.
Let's see, in 2 starts we've got a pitcher who's.....

Pitched 14IP, has a 16-2 K/BB ratio, a 16/14WHIP (1.14), a 1.82 GB/FB ratio, and a 10.29K/9 - but a 5.14 ERA. If he continues as he has started, expect the ERA to drop. He's also pitched well enough to be 2-0 while resting the bullpen, but the O has slumped a bit of late.

It's a small sample size, but since you say that "we are seeing a pitcher who had a great season coming back to earth on the Sox currently", it's a fair comparison.

soxtalker
07-07-2004, 03:36 PM
What's most funny is that three weeks ago KW was an idiot for trading Bradford for Olivo. Now it's a potentially all-star calibre catcher. And if KW did nothing, the same whiners would have bitched that we were going into the playoffs without a strong enough pitching staff.
And I remember people bitching that we gave up too much for Everett also.

It's the nature of the beast. The brilliant armschair GMs always know more than Dumb-Kenny - so they criticize every chance they get using the same tired old arguements.

It's all black and white in the eyes of the KW-Haters.
I think that it is largely different groups of people who would be complaining if KW did nothing (going into the playoffs without strong pitching) and those who complain that we gave up too much in various trades. There's probably some overlap, but probably not much. I'm in the latter group, and I usually cringe when KW makes "big" moves. (In contrast, I've been pretty happy with his "small" moves.) I also don't generally complain that he hasn't made enough moves, and I don't think that many of those who fall into this camp do either.

Also, the "black and white" comment cuts both ways. Those of you -- a defininite majority on this board -- who cheer for KW to make big moves, often characterize any minor leaguer as "just a prospect". As Jeremy pointed out, they differ in value -- and some are very valuable. We will suffer in the future from their loss; and, as much as I want a championship, I also intend to be a fan in that future. Also, as Dadawg points out, many who like Kenny to make big trades are quite willing to dismiss his unsuccessful trades, because he tried. You're quite right in saying that KW's every move shouldn't be trashed, but it also doesn't make sense to give him a pass on every move just for his effort.

jeremyb1
07-07-2004, 05:29 PM
You're addressing a different point than I was. I was pointing out that the many people who blithely throw off comments like "KW's stripped our farm system" are incorrect and that if you look at the prospects we've given up one (excluding the Garcia deal), the only one of any value is Kip Wells, with Frankie Francisco having some marginal value. To me, that's an indication that KW has a good eye for those prospects that will develop, which is an important skill to have.

I haven't heard a lot of credible people go as far to say that KW has "stripped" the farm system. That's pretty extreme language. I think it's completely incorrect to state that outside of Wells and Francisco none of the prospects we've traded have any value. That means they are and will continue to have absolutely no worth. As I stated in my post, Ring could fit into the back end of quite a few pens right now and make a valuable contribution. Furthermore, the clock hasn't run out on Rupe or Webster by any means and they're both still very young. If they're capable of being contributing players in a few years that has to mean they have some present value. Most importantly, to have no value in baseball a player must be incapable of fetching any worthwhile asset in a trade and I highly doubt any of the main prospects dealt at last years deadline have come close to reaching that point.

As for the Garcia trade, IIRC, KW's comments were that the deal the M's wanted was too high (Crede+Olivo), but when they dropped from Crede to Reed that he agreed to do the deal. I think he's said that he paid a high price, but I can't recall him ever saying it was "too high". It would in fact be ludicrous of him to say "I overpaid".

KW never said he overpaid. He hinted that he at least came close however by making a comment that he didn't think he was going to make the deal until the last minute. You could interpret that to mean that he agreed once Reed was swapped for Crede but he talked about it as if it was a decision on his part. That he deliberated long and hard over the ultimate package and didn't think he was going to make the deal and then changed his mind at the last minute. I can't find the quite because I believe it was in the Trib and articles more than 7 days old are no longer free but that's how I interepreted his remarks.

And while we've had this debate before (among many others!:cool: ), the guys you classify as a "potentially All-Star caliber catcher" and "A .400 OBP CF that can hit leadoff for a decade" can also be classified as a "catcher who hits <.200 v. righties" and a "corner OF prospect with a dominant 250ABs in class AA and very good other numbers".

I guess time will tell but I feel like you're still grasping for straws there. Miggy's BA vs. RH hasn't hurt his overall numbers all that much this season and Reed may or may not be affected by a wrist injury and still has at least two seasons after this one to develop in AAA before his high potential to succeed in the majors comes into questions. We don't know they'll be great but we know Olivo's already good and that Reed has far from completely collapsed at the most advanced level of the minors. The fact that there's some doubt there doesn't make them anywhere near worthless. It's not a question as whether or not these guys will pan out as everday major league players as it is with guys like Rupe and Webster, it's an issue of how good they'll be.

jeremyb1
07-07-2004, 05:34 PM
What's most funny is that three weeks ago KW was an idiot for trading Bradford for Olivo. Now it's a potentially all-star calibre catcher. And if KW did nothing, the same whiners would have bitched that we were going into the playoffs without a strong enough pitching staff.

You know, your arguments are always going to be right if you choose to characterize your opponents statements in the worst possible light. If you make up what I've argued then I certainly hope you can do a good job of criticizing me. I dare you to find posts where myself or anyone else credible on this side of the argument (such as DaDawg) called KW "an idiot" for the Bradford trade. I can show you several where I write about how KW had a good eye for talent in grabbing Olivo yet relied too heavily on velocity and traditional scouting methods as he threw aside a valuable pitcher in Bradford when he told Beane he fit the qualifications as a 12th man in the pen to eat up some innings (he doesn't resemble one to me, does he to you?). Then you put words in peoples' mouths by insisting we'd be entering the playoffs without a strong enough pitching staff. Should I keep posting or do you want to just make up all my arguments for me? It could be a great back and forth between you and your faulty perceptions of my arguments.

jeremyb1
07-07-2004, 05:40 PM
I can recall several people on this board angry we lost Ring.

Secondly, the majority of big league players are not playing for the team that drafted them. I think KW has done a good job of trying to get the team to be competitve year in and year out. He takes risks, which is what you need to do when you are not spending in the top 30% of the league.

You always want to develop the players in your system because it is cheaper, however the need is to win on the big stage....not the farm.

The Garcia move was risky, but now he is signed for 3 additional years. Pitching wins. Olivio is a fine player, while Reed is just projection. With Garcia signed, I think it is a fair deal. Hopefully FG will continue to perform at a high level over the next few years.

I wasn't pleased we lost Ring but more because I thought he'd be a solid major leaguer and I didn't see us getting much from Alomar (which I maintain we didn't) than because I thought he was bound to be a superstar in the near future. Hmm. I don't know that that's true that most big leaguers are playing for teams that draft them. It seems possible. Regardless, that doesn't mean you're destined to get very little out of the minor leaguers in your system that will make it to the big leagues. I agree with you the need is to win "on the big stage" but I certainly don't think the farm system is unrelated to that. If we traded all our best prospects for the Freddy Garcia's of the world we'd have a great team but we'd also have a 150 million dollar payroll so it's not going to happen. How much a player is going to make is heavily tied to his value. Do I think Reed and Olivo will contribute more over the next few seasons than Garcia? Not necessarily no. However, I do think that at a combined salary of less than a million they'll be more valuable than Garcia at 9.

pudge
07-07-2004, 05:47 PM
The problem seems to me that we're no longer having intelligent conversations on this board - instead, we're pointing the finger at the few extremists in either direction, rather than ignoring them like we should be.

How many threads have started with a title such as "Konerko bashers eat dirt" or "Foes of Rowand, where are you now?"

For example, someone started a thread about trading Crede after his popup against the Cubs. IMO, that's not even a thread worth paying attention to and should be ignored immediately so we can get back having thoughtful debate on this board.

We're so concerned with "burning" each other and proving ourselves right that we've forgotten why we come to this site in the first place.

Can't we all just get along?
:bandance:

cornball
07-07-2004, 09:22 PM
But its not the same people mad that we lost Reed.

I hate this excuse if Kenny makes a mistake, that he was at least trying. I don't care about trying, I care about success, which Kenny has had a tough time attaining.

You can hope FG will "continue" to perform at a high level the only problem with that, his high level was the first half of this year. So I would get my expectations up to high, we are seeing a pitcher who had a great season coming back to earth on the Sox currently.
Yes it is many of the same people complaining we lost Reed. Some are upset with the loss of any prospect.

There are no excuses for KW. Nor have there been excuses for the GM's of the Sox for the 87 years and none of them attained success as a World Champion. When the GM has a budget imposed on him, he is doing the best he can under these limitations, IMHO.

FG has been in the big leagues since 1999. He currently is 2nd in innings pitched in the AL and 4th in strikeouts. In 4 out of 5 seasons he has pitched over 200 innings, 2001 he was hurt. He has made the AllStar game twice and has (I believe) an ERA title. He has a track record.

No need to be so negative, the chances of Garcia being a major player in a title run for the White Sox, in the next 3 years, is much greater than Olivio and Reed. Several years from now maybe different, but you can change a good portion of your roster from year to year in today's baseball.

cornball
07-07-2004, 09:40 PM
I wasn't pleased we lost Ring but more because I thought he'd be a solid major leaguer and I didn't see us getting much from Alomar (which I maintain we didn't) than because I thought he was bound to be a superstar in the near future. Hmm. I don't know that that's true that most big leaguers are playing for teams that draft them. It seems possible. Regardless, that doesn't mean you're destined to get very little out of the minor leaguers in your system that will make it to the big leagues. I agree with you the need is to win "on the big stage" but I certainly don't think the farm system is unrelated to that. If we traded all our best prospects for the Freddy Garcia's of the world we'd have a great team but we'd also have a 150 million dollar payroll so it's not going to happen. How much a player is going to make is heavily tied to his value. Do I think Reed and Olivo will contribute more over the next few seasons than Garcia? Not necessarily no. However, I do think that at a combined salary of less than a million they'll be more valuable than Garcia at 9.
It is easy to arm chair QB. I maintain who would have played 2nd if Alomar didn't come here last year, Jimeniez was not the answer. Last years team had a chance....they underachieved.

I would like to know the percentage of minor leaguers who actually achieve success in the bigs. It is very small, as evidence of the 1st rounders who make the big leagues.

As far as how much salary the club pays the players, is irrelavent. As a fan I want the club to win. Good pitching win baseball games, period. To keep 2 players who maybe good/great (or maybe not) in a few years and are cheap now.......versus a good pitcher which gives the team a chance in the next 3 years to win it all. I would take the latter.

As a Sox fan of more than 3 decades, I want to win now. Some may say at what expense? We have seen so many can't miss prospects over the past several years that busted, I like KW approach of getting a proven comodity like FG. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't, but the odds are in his corner.

duke of dorwood
07-07-2004, 09:52 PM
What has been hurt by all the KW moves has been minor league depth.

We do not know how this affected the devopment and movement of some players in our system perhaps prematurely.

Daver
07-07-2004, 10:00 PM
What has been hurt by all the KW moves has been minor league depth.

We do not know how this affected the devopment and movement of some players in our system perhaps prematurely.
The Sox have better minor league depth now than they ever had under the Schueler regime. The fact that it is all in AA ball and below is what makes some people freak. A lot of people never realize AAA ball is made up of a ton of guys that will never play MLB ball.

jeremyb1
07-08-2004, 01:30 AM
It is easy to arm chair QB. I maintain who would have played 2nd if Alomar didn't come here last year, Jimeniez was not the answer. Last years team had a chance....they underachieved.

Personally I think Jimenez was the answer, at least a better answer than Alomar. He produced more offensively. He's outproduced Harris this season as well. He may not be the best defensive 2B or baserunner but I feel his flaws there were overexagerated by a bunch of Sox fans looking for a scapegoat and overly frustrated by bonehead plays (which is understandable but not necessarily rational). He has a great batting eye and he's posting a .364 OBP this season. You are correct that it can be easy to "play armchair GM" but I was making identical arguments last season the day the deal was made.

As a Sox fan of more than 3 decades, I want to win now. Some may say at what expense? We have seen so many can't miss prospects over the past several years that busted, I like KW approach of getting a proven comodity like FG. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't, but the odds are in his corner.

Everyone wants to win now. The question is how do you do it? The Odds are never in any teams corner to win the Series because you're always dealing with 5 to 7 game series and you have to come out on top against 7 other teams. I haven't seen a plan yet that gives a team outstanding odds of winning the World Series. I don't remember people shouting from the rooftops with happiness when we made the playoffs in '00, only fans bitter over our early exit. Any happiness derived from winning the division that season quickly dissapeared.

Dadawg_77
07-08-2004, 10:11 AM
Yes it is many of the same people complaining we lost Reed. Some are upset with the loss of any prospect.

There are no excuses for KW. Nor have there been excuses for the GM's of the Sox for the 87 years and none of them attained success as a World Champion. When the GM has a budget imposed on him, he is doing the best he can under these limitations, IMHO.

FG has been in the big leagues since 1999. He currently is 2nd in innings pitched in the AL and 4th in strikeouts. In 4 out of 5 seasons he has pitched over 200 innings, 2001 he was hurt. He has made the AllStar game twice and has (I believe) an ERA title. He has a track record.

No need to be so negative, the chances of Garcia being a major player in a title run for the White Sox, in the next 3 years, is much greater than Olivio and Reed. Several years from now maybe different, but you can change a good portion of your roster from year to year in today's baseball.
LOL, no it isn't. We gave up nothing for Carl and Robbie, even though we got nothing in Robbie.

And I disagree with you last statement. Garcia is an average pitcher that means he can have great games, but he will have bad game too.

maurice
07-08-2004, 02:08 PM
Garcia is an average pitcher
I know you hate all things KW, but this is a bit too much. There's something like 350 pitchers in MLB. Do you really believe that Garcia is not well within the top 175?

Dadawg_77
07-08-2004, 02:44 PM
I know you hate all things KW, but this is a bit too much. There's something like 350 pitchers in MLB. Do you really believe that Garcia is not well within the top 175?Well, I think the distribution of pitching is normal so a great majority of the pitchers out there are average major league pitcher. Yes I am a stat head.

http://davidmlane.com/hyperstat/normal_distribution.html