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LASOXFAN
07-07-2004, 03:40 AM
As if a losing streak weren't bad enough...

http://whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20040706&content_id=791065&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp

StockdaleForVeep
07-07-2004, 03:49 AM
As if a losing streak weren't bad enough...

http://whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20040706&content_id=791065&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp
This doesnt worry me, its just a halt to talks for the season, all that magz should focus on is rehabbin and get back to playin. Money is not an issue with the concept that we will be losing players this season still with trade\free agency, so we wont know how much money is avail till end of the season. Which is good because perhaps if williams believes he's not strapped, he can go higher or offer something else to mags.

joeynach
07-07-2004, 09:40 AM
This doesnt worry me, its just a halt to talks for the season, all that magz should focus on is rehabbin and get back to playin. Money is not an issue with the concept that we will be losing players this season still with trade\free agency, so we wont know how much money is avail till end of the season. Which is good because perhaps if williams believes he's not strapped, he can go higher or offer something else to mags.
What worries me is what everyone feared. Another deffered money contract from uncle jerry. The more he does this the more i get the impression players dont want to sign here. Im not so mad about colon's contract being a deffered $$ deal, cuz now that he sucks who cares. But Maggs, we all said dont jerk this guy around. He is our guy and we want him here for years. We didn't want to see any deffered $ deals with clauses and what not, we just wanted to see him here. Not that it looks like that is not going to happen sox fans have once again another reason to despise managment. Despite all their recent efforts managment still just doesn't present itself as fan friendly and listening to their consumers. This is a damn shame. There is absoultly no reason good enough maggs should not be signed right now, and that includes option years and deffered $$.

pearso66
07-07-2004, 11:01 AM
I personally have no problem with the deferred money. If JR is offering 5 years at 14 mil, but its deferred and Maggs is turning it down, then screw him. Now I don't know if that is what JR is offering, but if it is, Maggs isn't even worth that much. So if he's turning something down that is close to that, just because its deferred, then he can go play somewhere else. We've been through this before on this site, and JR isnt the only one who does it, he's just the only one who gets bashed for it.

kittle42
07-07-2004, 11:08 AM
Well, there goes any hope I had of Ordonez coming back. This is *not* the same as Colon - this one really hurts. Thanks, Uncle Jerry.

:reinsy
"You're welcome. And thanks for coming to U.S. Cellular 18 times this season and spending your money, kittle42. Maybe we can hold onto Ben Davis and Ross Gload with that cash. See, I care about the fans...I said 'thanks'."

joeynach
07-07-2004, 11:12 AM
I personally have no problem with the deferred money. If JR is offering 5 years at 14 mil, but its deferred and Maggs is turning it down, then screw him. Now I don't know if that is what JR is offering, but if it is, Maggs isn't even worth that much. So if he's turning something down that is close to that, just because its deferred, then he can go play somewhere else. We've been through this before on this site, and JR isnt the only one who does it, he's just the only one who gets bashed for it.
No hes the only one who employs it as a norm. They other teams just do it if they have it, this is the way JR prefers to do it. Its ok for someone like Carlos Lee or Mark Buehrle, they are still young and have to prove themselves. Maggs is a franchise guy, 30 years old, consistent producer, and deserves straight up deal that he is asking for, no BS.

kittle42
07-07-2004, 11:14 AM
No hes the only one who employs it as a norm. They other teams just do it if they have it, this is the way JR prefers to do it. Its ok for someone like Carlos Lee or Mark Buehrle, they are still young and have to prove themselves. Maggs is a franchise guy, 30 years old, consistent producer, and deserves straight up deal that he is asking for, no BS.
Agreed. Guerrero got it. Tejada got it.

HomerCoach
07-07-2004, 11:19 AM
We have NO offense when Maggs is out, especially when Frank sits. It really hurts to have Timo or Gload in the lineup everyday instead.

jabrch
07-07-2004, 11:21 AM
That's what Magglio is turning down an otherwise fair offer over? Or is it offering the club protection in case he is unable to at all play in the 5th year of the deal?

Screw him - if this is the case. 4 freaking cents per 1$ - that's sinful. He should be ashamed of himself. Magglio Ordonez had no intention of staying here unless we overpayed him and burdened the organization with an unmanageable contract. We are gonna be better off without him.

4 muther forking cents per $1 per year - greedy prick.

pearso66
07-07-2004, 11:21 AM
Gary Sheffield had no problem taking deferred money, he is older than Maggs, and has proven himself quite worthy. IMO if the money is deferred its still there. He is getting paid no matter what, it's just that some will be coming a little later. If Maggs can't live on $10 mil a year, then he should seriously look into his finances. I could retire with $10 mil period. And like I said, if he is being offered $14 mil, or near that, he's not worth it anyway. I wouldn't give him more than $12, but then again, I'm not KW or JR.

jabrch
07-07-2004, 11:22 AM
Agreed. Guerrero got it. Tejada got it.
Sheffied got deferred money from the Yankees. Magglio is too good to take that sort of deal? 4 cents per $1 per year - that's all it costs to "undefer" that money.

soxtalker
07-07-2004, 11:36 AM
Seems like we aren't being told much about what each side is offering (not that we should be). As I've said before, there is so much money involved that there are smart guys on both sides who can figure out the present value of the contracts -- regardless of how much is deferred and what options are in place. I'm a bit disappointed, since JR is pretty creative in negotiations, but it really sounds like the two sides are very far apart.

Cubbiesuck13
07-07-2004, 11:39 AM
i hate to see him leave, if he does but i hope that he is not traded. there is no one else available that compares to him. i just want to win this year. this year. now.

pearso66
07-07-2004, 11:39 AM
Seems like we aren't being told much about what each side is offering (not that we should be). As I've said before, there is so much money involved that there are smart guys on both sides who can figure out the present value of the contracts -- regardless of how much is deferred and what options are in place. I'm a bit disappointed, since JR is pretty creative in negotiations, but it really sounds like the two sides are very far apart.
From what I've heard, and thats mainly around these boards, is that all that kept a deal from being signed was a guaranteed 5th year. Maggs wants guaranteed while the Sox want an out clause just in case. Well there's that and deferred money. I think if Maggs thinks he'll still be productive in that 5th year, then there is no point in making it guaranteed, as he'll get it anyway. And if Maggs is injured or slumping, boy I don't want him for 16-18 mil that last season. Not to mention KW will get ripped for another bad contract from the people around these parts.

soxtalker
07-07-2004, 11:53 AM
From what I've heard, and thats mainly around these boards, is that all that kept a deal from being signed was a guaranteed 5th year. Maggs wants guaranteed while the Sox want an out clause just in case. Well there's that and deferred money. I think if Maggs thinks he'll still be productive in that 5th year, then there is no point in making it guaranteed, as he'll get it anyway. And if Maggs is injured or slumping, boy I don't want him for 16-18 mil that last season. Not to mention KW will get ripped for another bad contract from the people around these parts.
OK, let's say that the situation is as you have suggested. There are two issues here -- deferred money and an out clause for the Sox.

For the deferred money, find a financial firm that will convert that into money when Maggs wants it. For example, if it is deferred over a number of years and Maggs wants salary in the 5th year, the bank (or other financial firm) can convert those out-year payments into a single payment in the 5th year. We do this all the time with mortgages. So, the deferred money isn't the problem; it is the amount of money.

Now, as far as the option is concerned, can't one side take out an insurance policy? (I believe that someone on another thread said that these aren't normally written for more than 3 years. So, it might be costly.) Again, it can be converted into dollars.

For some reason, the teams, the players, and the media love to focus on total dollars over so many years. But even $14 million dollars for each of the next 5 years has a present value less than $70 million. This is big business on both sides, and they pay smart people on both sides to do sophisticated deals that minimize risk.

JohnBasedowYoda
07-07-2004, 12:28 PM
We have NO offense when Maggs is out, especially when Frank sits. It really hurts to have Timo or Gload in the lineup everyday instead.
at least we have reed all loaded up. my what hurts?

Lip Man 1
07-07-2004, 12:59 PM
Two thoughts...

First this comment in Phil Arvia's column in the Daily Southtown struck a chord..." It also set off alarms for those familiar with the "look, we tried, he's the bad guy," negotiating tactic employed in other Jerry Reinsdorf regimes."

Second remember something about Gary Sheffield (and Randy Johnson and Curt Schilling for that matter)...look at who those guys were taking deferred money from. The Yankees, D-backs and D'backs and now Red Sox.

All teams that have won in the past and make winning a priority.

Those guys knew pretty well that those organizations were going to use the financial cushion that deferring money gave them on other good players.

Players who would increase the chances of winning.

This is not an attack on Uncle Jerry but can any player willing to defer money to the Sox make that same claim?

I personally think that is why the Sox have such a hard time getting their players to agree to the deferred money clause. The other factor of course is that we don't know how much money the Sox want guys like Maggs and Colon to defer.

The Yanks, D-backs and Red Sox may have been asking for less money then the White Sox are.

We simply don't know.

Lip

Paulwny
07-07-2004, 01:02 PM
[QUOTE=jabrch]That's what Magglio is turning down an otherwise fair offer over? Or is it offering the club protection in case he is unable to at all play in the 5th year of the deal?
QUOTE]

Because JR will not extend contracts, all $$$/year being equal, players will sign with clubs offering more yrs.
The sox will continually sign cheap, unproven players and players reaching the ends of their careers.
I'm still surprised Garcia signed only a 3 yr contract.

steff
07-07-2004, 01:09 PM
I still say this is not about $$, but a performance issue in year 5.

JMO...

jabrch
07-07-2004, 01:13 PM
at least we have reed all loaded up. my what hurts?

Reed really wasn't gonna replace Ordonez, he'd be our #2 hitter and CF, replacing Rowand. Orondez, a power hitter and a run producer, was going to be replaced by Borchard. That is likely why KW refused to trade Borchard to Seattle when they expressed interest in him. Reed would be in the Rowand/Harris slot in the order. I know Reed is supposed to be worlds better than Rowand, but I am just talking about the role they'd play in the offense - #2 hitter, get singles, move runners, hustle, take a base, etc.

Reed-lovers, go ahead - tell me about the messiah and how much we will miss him. I'll even extend an open invitation to the Olivo-lovers too. Tell me I am a dope. It's been a few days.

jabrch
07-07-2004, 01:15 PM
I still say this is not about $$, but a performance issue in year 5.

JMO...

I agree Steff - and I don't blame the club for wanting some meager sort of year 5 protection. If Magglio doesn't want the money for 4 years, with an option, someone will surely take it. Or we will use it for more pitching. Either way - I don't want to overpay or be stuck in a bad long term deal.

steff
07-07-2004, 01:18 PM
I agree Steff - and I don't blame the club for wanting some meager sort of year 5 protection. If Magglio doesn't want the money for 4 years, with an option, someone will surely take it. Or we will use it for more pitching. Either way - I don't want to overpay or be stuck in a bad long term deal.
I'm gonna further elaborate on this.... this team has had 3 years straight of pissed off former employees yappin their gums (with good reason in some cases).. and if anyone thinks that they are going to let that happen again... and with of all people.. Magglio... you're crazy. This is about the Sox covering their butts from paying a non-usable, or limisted role player 4 or 5 years from now. Ya recall how long Albert was hurtin Baltimore's behinds....? That isn't gonna happen here. And I agree with it.

StepsInSC
07-07-2004, 01:24 PM
Sheffied got deferred money from the Yankees. Magglio is too good to take that sort of deal? 4 cents per $1 per year - that's all it costs to "undefer" that money.
Yea...to play for the Yankees...in a city where he has family and wanted to live.

batmanZoSo
07-07-2004, 01:27 PM
As if a losing streak weren't bad enough...

http://whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20040706&content_id=791065&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp
Trade him for Andruw and Ortiz. Might as well get something for him..and it's not a forfeit trade, we'd actually be getting better and Andruw is signed three years, right? If you can pull off a deal for good major league players in return, do it.

jabrch
07-07-2004, 01:34 PM
Yea...to play for the Yankees...in a city where he has family and wanted to live.
If he doesn't like the city, or doesn't like the Sox enough to stay - and the 4 cents per $1 per year is that important, then he can go to whatever city/team/planet he wants to go to. That just indicates he didn't want to stay here to begin with. From day 1, I thought he was destined for a warm weather city. I hear Mrs. Ordonez is not a fan of Chicago. If that is the case - then screw it - there was nothing within reason we could have done anyhow.

Remember, it is easy for a player to have future dollars converted into present $. It is hard for a team due to league rules about team debt/funding/financial management.

StepsInSC
07-07-2004, 01:37 PM
If he doesn't like the city, or doesn't like the Sox enough to stay - and the 4 cents per $1 per year is that important, then he can go to whatever city/team/planet he wants to go to. That just indicates he didn't want to stay here to begin with. From day 1, I thought he was destined for a warm weather city. I hear Mrs. Ordonez is not a fan of Chicago. If that is the case - then screw it - there was nothing within reason we could have done anyhow.

Remember, it is easy for a player to have future dollars converted into present $. It is hard for a team due to league rules about team debt/funding/financial management.
I agree. My point was just that the Yankees can get away with stuff we might not be able to simply because of the fact that they are the Yankees, whereas we would in theory have to relatively overpay just to get people to stay with the Sox.

jabrch
07-07-2004, 01:39 PM
I agree. My point was just that the Yankees can get away with stuff we might not be able to simply because of the fact that they are the Yankees, whereas we would in theory have to relatively overpay just to get people to stay with the Sox.
OK - well if that's the bar - then we will, of course, never meet it under present ownership. But rather than compete to be the Yankess, lets compete to be the Marlins, or the 2002 Angels. Those are more realistic teams we could compare to from a budgetary perspective.

pudge
07-07-2004, 01:41 PM
Go get Andruw Jones - I know he's not as good as Maggs, but he can play a mean CF. Then bring up Borchard and let him play RF. I'm sick of this crap.

Paulwny
07-07-2004, 01:43 PM
I agree. My point was just that the Yankees can get away with stuff we might not be able to simply because of the fact that they are the Yankees, whereas we would in theory have to relatively overpay just to get people to stay with the Sox.
Agree, plus the player is almost guaranteed the additional $$$ from the play-off and ws appearances.

Flight #24
07-07-2004, 01:46 PM
Agreed. Guerrero got it. Tejada got it.
Anyone got any data on the Vlady/Tejada deals? I'd actually be VERY surprised if there wasn't any deferred money in those, that's actually become pretty common in the larger deals (even ARod had a lot of his big contract deferred).

If Vlady's got 5-yrs/$14mil with some deferred and Maggs wants his with none deferred - then he's actually asking for MORE than Vlady got. And hiding behind the raw numbers as "I'll take less to stay here".

serena
07-07-2004, 02:23 PM
<snipped> I'm still surprised Garcia signed only a 3 yr contract.I've heard that it's now nearly impossible to get insurance coverage past 3 years on pitchers, and that's part of the reason few pitchers sign >3-yr contracts these days. Anyone know if that's true? :?:

DickAllen72
07-07-2004, 05:04 PM
I like Maggs and I wish they would have signed him---but---what have we ever won with him?

Nobody on this team has ever proven to be a real clutch player in the playoffs anyway.

kittle42
07-07-2004, 05:19 PM
Nobody on this team has ever proven to be a real clutch player in the playoffs anyway.
You mean, like, that one time he, Konerko, Lee, etc. were in the playoffs?

DickAllen72
07-07-2004, 05:29 PM
You mean, like, that one time he, Konerko, Lee, etc. were in the playoffs?

Yeah. What have we ever won with this group that would make any one of them "untouchable?"

What do we have tied up in those three in salary--about $30million??? What have we won for that money?

As I said, I wish we would have resigned Maggs but what have we ever won with him? Who has ever proven to be a real clutch player on this team?

MisterB
07-07-2004, 06:35 PM
Anyone got any data on the Vlady/Tejada deals? I'd actually be VERY surprised if there wasn't any deferred money in those, that's actually become pretty common in the larger deals (even ARod had a lot of his big contract deferred).

If Vlady's got 5-yrs/$14mil with some deferred and Maggs wants his with none deferred - then he's actually asking for MORE than Vlady got. And hiding behind the raw numbers as "I'll take less to stay here".From ESPN:

Guerrero gets a $5 million signing bonus, $10 million this year, $11.5 million in 2005, $12.5 million in 2006, $13.5 million in 2007 and $14.5 million in 2008, according to contract information obtained by The Associated Press. The Angels have a $15 million option for 2009 with a $3 million buyout.Tejada receives a $12 million signing bonus, with $4 million payable in 2004 and $2 million each in 2005, 2006, 2010 and 2011.

He receives yearly salaries of $3 million in 2004, $9 million in 2005, $10 million in 2006, $12 million in 2007, $13 million in 2008 and $13 million in 2009.Paying a signing bonus out until 2 years after the contract is up looks kinda like deferred money to me.

pearso66
07-08-2004, 12:48 AM
Wow, so the Angels have an out clause for the 5th year for Vlad. Hmmmm maybe more people other than jerry do it. I dont know, but if Maggs leaves, I blame it on him, I know I don't know for sure what the team is offering, but if its all about the 5th year being guaranteed, or not having deferred money, then he can go. The players whom got the contract he wants, has both of those in it. He obviously doesnt want to stay.

milrtyme28
07-08-2004, 12:56 AM
i am not suprised that we havent been able to sign maggs. after all, this is a business above all else and i think that we as fans sometimes overestimate the desire of a player to stay in one spot or at the very least we do not get enough information to form an opinion one way or another about what is fair.

while i love having maggs on this team and he would be sorely missed, i understand why he might want to test the market. he has a much better chance at a ring playing in new york. there are a number of other teams that just might step up and give him the big money. does that make the guy greedy? I think it is a sound busines decision on his part. after all, if he doesnt get more money elsewhere he will certainly not go broke signing with the Sox in the end.

I certainly dont want to have the ownership commit to an outrageous contract right now that will starve the organisation and prevent the sox from improving ( or maintaining ) talent in other areas. The precautions that they take are just to avoid spending millions on a guy who is sitting on his a** in the fifth year.

I am in sales and I think it would be great if my employer would gaurantee a 6-figure income for me 5 years from now even if I somehow lost the ability to speak sometime between now and then and couldnt make any deals. :cool:

pearso66
07-08-2004, 12:59 AM
i am not suprised that we havent been able to sign maggs. after all, this is a business above all else and i think that we as fans sometimes overestimate the desire of a player to stay in one spot or at the very least we do not get enough information to form an opinion one way or another about what is fair.

while i love having maggs on this team and he would be sorely missed, i understand why he might want to test the market. he has a much better chance at a ring playing in new york. there are a number of other teams that just might step up and give him the big money. does that make the guy greedy? I think it is a sound busines decision on his part. after all, if he doesnt get more money elsewhere he will certainly not go broke signing with the Sox in the end.

I certainly dont want to have the ownership commit to an outrageous contract right now that will starve the organisation and prevent the sox from improving ( or maintaining ) talent in other areas. The precautions that they take are just to avoid spending millions on a guy who is sitting on his a** in the fifth year.

I am in sales and I think it would be great if my employer would gaurantee a 6-figure income for me 5 years from now even if I somehow lost the ability to speak sometime between now and then and couldnt make any deals. :cool:
Well the reasons I've heard about him not signing so far, He comes out as being greedy. If he came straight out and said, "I want to play in another city' or "I want a better shot at winning" then he wouldn't be greedy, but I sure as heck wouldnt like him. I'll stick with my greedy thought as of now

StillMissOzzie
07-08-2004, 02:29 AM
From ESPN:

Paying a signing bonus out until 2 years after the contract is up looks kinda like deferred money to me.
Re: Tejada's deal -
If we ignore the timing of bonus vs. salary (eg, probably got a bonus check for $4M at start of 2004, gets remaining $3M paid out in salary over the course of the year), these pieces add up to:

2004: $ 7M
2005: 11M
2006: 12M
2007: 12M
2008: 13M
2009: 13M
2010: 2M (no longer playing under contract)
2011: 2M ( " " " " " )

A discount for the current year, pretty level for 2005-2009, and $4M paid out after the current contract expires. A pretty modest deferral on the whole.

SMO

koch44
07-08-2004, 02:30 AM
http://www.pjstar.com/sports/nadel/b3guqpgj077.html


"Yes, if it comes to that, I would like to hear from the Cubs," Ordonez told me Tuesday night. "It would be nice to stay in Chicago."

nitetrain8601
07-08-2004, 03:04 AM
If thats true that he would like to hear from the Cubs then fine. Let him go, I'm not going to overpay for a player and give someone beyond Vlad-money if he's not even equal to Vlad. You want to play for the Cubs, well fine, don't let the door hit you on the way out a**hole.

Aidan
07-08-2004, 03:13 AM
If thats true that he would like to hear from the Cubs then fine. Let him go, I'm not going to overpay for a player and give someone beyond Vlad-money if he's not even equal to Vlad. You want to play for the Cubs, well fine, don't let the door hit you on the way out a**hole.Agreed. At this point I'm waiting and hoping for a Maggs for Andruw Jones trade. Jones would be under contract for the next 3 years making $12 million and playing some sweet D in CF. Hopefully, Borchard could be successful in RF and put up the same power numbers as Maggs. Magglio needs to realize that he is not Vlad and does not deserve Vlad money. Of course, some overspending team like the Yankees will probably shell out the cash for him.

soltrain21
07-08-2004, 03:36 AM
Trade his ass to Arizona right now and let him rot there. How the hell could he say something like that during the season?

maggliofan10
07-08-2004, 03:37 AM
cuz he's a greedy jerk who doesn't care about us and our feelings. he just stabbed us all in the back with a butcher's knife

nitetrain8601
07-08-2004, 03:42 AM
hell trade him to milwaukee for ben sheets...or even send him to the expos for livan and pitching prospects...let the a-hole rot there

TommyJohn
07-08-2004, 04:40 AM
Notice how the Chicago media is making hay about Magglio possibly going to the Cubs? When the Cubs have a free agent, does anybody yap about the possibility of them going to the White Sox? Like when Sosa's contract was up for renewal in 2000. Any Tribune crud plant stories that Sammy could go back to the White Sox because he loves Chicago and wants to stay? I don't think you'll find any.

Just another example of the scum pond that is the Tribune Co. That article
by Sullivan is no less than tampering on the part of the Cubs, if you ask me.

And Mariotti, well...consider the source. I predicted back on June 11 that he would write about Ordonez to the Cubs. Of course, that prediction was as tough a call as saying that the Yankees would win their division.

gosox41
07-08-2004, 08:52 AM
I've heard that it's now nearly impossible to get insurance coverage past 3 years on pitchers, and that's part of the reason few pitchers sign >3-yr contracts these days. Anyone know if that's true? :?:
It's hard to get insurance coverage on most long term contracts. They can be done, but premiums have shot through the roof. And now these insurance contracts don't inculde preexisting conditions. Thome is a perfect example. The Phillies did wind up induring him, but couldn't insure any injury related to his back because he's had a history of back problems. If he ruins his back permanently tomorrow the Phillies are screwed. If he destroys his knee the Phillies are fine.

Funny how JR gets ripped on for not signing pitchers to long term contracts. Insurance companies hire actuaries to calculate odds, etc. of events happening. If it is true that insurance companies don't want to insure pitchers signed for more then 3 years, then I think it says a lot about how big of a risk it is. Insurance companies look at the risk/reward and determine if they're going to make money over time. If not they don't bother. So now insurance companies and their actuaries are doing the same thing JR has done for years...stayed away from long term pitching contracts. THey paid their stats people to determine if it was worth the risk and it wasn't.


Bob