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balboner
07-04-2004, 08:58 PM
Willie has been awful lately, yet Ozzie decides to play him against a lefty. With Frank and Maggs out of the lineup, we need Jose playing. Basically, we're playing without our 3 most dangerous hitters. Willie continues to not drive the ball, and has become a very easy out. What should the Sox do with Willie?

Malgar 12
07-04-2004, 09:13 PM
Willie has been awful lately, yet Ozzie decides to play him against a lefty. With Frank and Maggs out of the lineup, we need Jose playing. Basically, we're playing without our 3 most dangerous hitters. Willie continues to not drive the ball, and has become a very easy out. What should the Sox do with Willie?When was he ever a difficult out? Let's be honest the man never hits the ball hard. Even when he was hitting well early in the year, it was bunts, seeing eye singles, and slow dribblers. He needs to grow permanent roots on the bench, except in cases when we need a pinch runner.

pissonthecubs
07-04-2004, 09:16 PM
Willie has been awful lately, yet Ozzie decides to play him against a lefty. With Frank and Maggs out of the lineup, we need Jose playing. Basically, we're playing without our 3 most dangerous hitters. Willie continues to not drive the ball, and has become a very easy out. What should the Sox do with Willie?
ozzie has to play willie against lefties. we know jose can't touch a lefty

balboner
07-04-2004, 09:24 PM
Jose is way more dangerous against a lefty than Willie is. With Maggs and Frank out, there's no excuse for Jose to not be playing! Our 8-9-1 is disgusting this game.

Malgar 12
07-04-2004, 09:34 PM
ozzie has to play willie against lefties. we know jose can't touch a leftyValentin is hitting .208 off of lefties, Willie hit .182 in June and is hitting .152 against lefties, that is hardly "has to" territory. Harris is worthless, at least Valentin will occasionaly hits the ball hard against lefties.

Soxzilla
07-04-2004, 09:35 PM
Willie isn't the guy we should be worried about. I'm still wondering why the hell Joe crappy is still playing 3rd base.


This is ridiculous.

nasox
07-04-2004, 09:43 PM
our 7-8-9 hit 1-7 yesterday and on friday 0-10

Malgar 12
07-04-2004, 09:43 PM
Willie isn't the guy we should be worried about. I'm still wondering why the hell Joe crappy is still playing 3rd base.


This is ridiculous.
I understand your frustration and I just started a new thread in this regard, but Crede has a long way to go to reach Wee Willie territory. Harris has trouble getting the ball out of the infield. Has Crede been infuriating? Yes. But his defense is important at 3B, and he does have 12 HR's. Willie is not even stealing bases anymore. Of course that's tough to do when you can't get on base. I think he should bunt every time. Even if they knew it was coming he could get on more than the .182 clip he hit in June! :D:

balboner
07-04-2004, 09:53 PM
I don't see any reason why Willie should be on this team right now. Send him to the minors so he can start driving the ball again. It's been about a month since he hit a ball hard.

mdep524
07-04-2004, 10:57 PM
I don't see any reason why Willie should be on this team right now. Send him to the minors so he can start driving the ball again. It's been about a month since he hit a ball hard.
Gotta agree here. Willie is absolutely worthless right now. Send him down to AAA for some regular at bats to see if he can regain his stroke. He is absolutely an automatic out at the plate right now.

In fact, I would say the Sox recent offense slump reflects more of Willie and Uribe's struggles than the lack of Maggs. Even if Maggs were here, there'd be nobody on base to drive in when he came to the plate.

JB98
07-04-2004, 11:24 PM
Valentin is hitting .208 off of lefties, Willie hit .182 in June and is hitting .152 against lefties, that is hardly "has to" territory. Harris is worthless, at least Valentin will occasionaly hits the ball hard against lefties.
Even though Valentin doesn't hit for a high average against lefties, he is a threat to drive the ball every time he steps into the box. Within the last month, he's homered off Eric Milton (11-game winner for Philly) and hit a game-tying double off Bartosh of Cleveland (the same night he homered to beat the Tribe). Those are two examples of big hits off lefties that immediately come to mind. That being said, we really need a right-handed utility man who can spell Valentin at SS and play third when Crede goes into funks like the one he's in now. I'm officially starting my bring back Tony G. campaign. Send Harris to AAA. I've seen enough.

DrCrawdad
07-05-2004, 02:19 AM
Even though Valentin doesn't hit for a high average against lefties, he is a threat to drive the ball every time he steps into the box. Within the last month, he's homered off Eric Milton (11-game winner for Philly) and hit a game-tying double off Bartosh of Cleveland (the same night he homered to beat the Tribe). Those are two examples of big hits off lefties that immediately come to mind. That being said, we really need a right-handed utility man who can spell Valentin at SS and play third when Crede goes into funks like the one he's in now. I'm officially starting my bring back Tony G. campaign. Send Harris to AAA. I've seen enough.

Harris, Uribe, Crede & Burke all slumping big time. Harris looks just lost now. Ozzie, this is a test of your managerial timbre.

If the last three games weren't enough to make you sick, consider this:

Colorado scored six runs in the fifth to make it 8-6. Matt Holliday had an RBI single and Aaron Miles and Clayton each hit two-out RBI singles. - about Sundays Tigers vs. Rockies game.

TaylorStSox
07-05-2004, 02:45 AM
Harris, Uribe, Crede & Burke all slumping big time. Harris looks just lost now. Ozzie, this is a test of your managerial timbre.

If the last three games weren't enough to make you sick, consider this:
Miles gets a hit and Uribe has to worry about his job? You have to be kidding me.

Willie hasn't been getting regular AB's for a while. He had a good amount of solid hits to start the season off. He can and will hit at this level.

They only problem I have with him is stealing bases. He should be much more aggressive when he gets on.

DrCrawdad
07-05-2004, 02:49 AM
Miles gets a hit and Uribe has to worry about his job? You have to be kidding me.

Willie hasn't been getting regular AB's for a while. He had a good amount of solid hits to start the season off. He can and will hit at this level.

They only problem I have with him is stealing bases. He should be much more aggressive when he gets on.

Miles is no threat to Uribe's job since Miles plays for the Rocks. It's just a bit irritating to me that while Uribe & Harris slump Miles (the guy the Sox traded to the Rocks for Uribe) is hitting the ball well.

I hope you're right about Harris. Harris just has looked over matched the past week or so.

JRIG
07-05-2004, 03:04 AM
Miles gets a hit and Uribe has to worry about his job? You have to be kidding me.

Willie hasn't been getting regular AB's for a while. He had a good amount of solid hits to start the season off. He can and will hit at this level.

They only problem I have with him is stealing bases. He should be much more aggressive when he gets on.
...which is not very often at all.

I have a problem with Harris not hitting.

The guy is 4 for his last 40 (.100).

He has 2 (two!) extra base hits since May 12, a double on June 1st and a triple on May 31.

This is a problem.

Malgar 12
07-05-2004, 10:45 AM
Miles gets a hit and Uribe has to worry about his job? You have to be kidding me.

Willie hasn't been getting regular AB's for a while. He had a good amount of solid hits to start the season off. He can and will hit at this level.

They only problem I have with him is stealing bases. He should be much more aggressive when he gets on.If you can't get on base, its hard to be an agressive base stealer.

DrCrawdad
07-05-2004, 10:49 AM
If you can't get on base, its hard to be an agressive base stealer.

At SoxFest Ozzie made virtually the same point about Harris.

viagracat
07-05-2004, 10:52 AM
If you can't get on base, its hard to be an agressive base stealer.
Right. Harris is the epitome of "Ozzieball", but only when he gets on base. I do expect him to get sent down shortly and be brought back up in September.

joeynach
07-05-2004, 10:53 AM
If you can't get on base, its hard to be an agressive base stealer.
If you cant get on base you shoud not consistently be in the lineup. Management needs to take a real hard look at who they are currently counting on to be there #1 and #2 guys. Two guys who showed early on they can hit major league pitching, but have now shown just not on a consistent basis. This is a very tough decision to make becuase if you really beleive as I do that Uribe and Harris are not good enough to be major leage players you need to make a move. So they either need to be sent down to AAA to learn how to hit again, be set as not everyday players and acquire some other guys, or be traded. Those are the 3 options here, the other one would be leave them in. We have left them in for about 6 weeks now and seen now improvment, actually we seen continous decline. If thats not the message OZ and KW need to make some changes here i dont know what is.

Harris AVG May 15th: .318
Uribe AVG May 15th: .342

Harris AVG July 5th:.271
Uribe AVG July 5th:.282

OUCH!!!

Paulwny
07-05-2004, 11:20 AM
Harris, Uribe, Crede & Burke all slumping big time. Harris looks just lost now. Ozzie, this is a test of your managerial timbre.

If the last three games weren't enough to make you sick, consider this:
Last night, it appeared that Harris was seeing curve balls for the 1st time from a lefty, he's really lost at the plate.

TaylorStSox
07-05-2004, 02:42 PM
...which is not very often at all.

I have a problem with Harris not hitting.

The guy is 4 for his last 40 (.100).

He has 2 (two!) extra base hits since May 12, a double on June 1st and a triple on May 31.

This is a problem.
How long have those AB's been over? Before he was hurt, he was seeing the ball well. He was looking nearly every pitch all the way into the glove and rarely swinging at balls out of the zone.

His AB's have been so sporadic that it's not surprising that he lost his groove. We're platooning too many players IMO. 4 guys fighting for 2 spots is hurting everyone somewhat. That's with the exception of Rowand, who's in his ideal position right now. ie. Platooning.

JRIG
07-05-2004, 03:06 PM
How long have those AB's been over? Before he was hurt, he was seeing the ball well. He was looking nearly every pitch all the way into the glove and rarely swinging at balls out of the zone.

His AB's have been so sporadic that it's not surprising that he lost his groove. We're platooning too many players IMO. 4 guys fighting for 2 spots is hurting everyone somewhat. That's with the exception of Rowand, who's in his ideal position right now. ie. Platooning.
Willie had 71 at bats in 19 games in April, 73 at bats in 21 games in May, and 66 at bats in 20 games in June.

In other words when he put up his .182/.316/.197 line in June, he was getting about the same playing time as the rest of the season.

TaylorStSox
07-05-2004, 03:11 PM
Willie had 71 at bats in 19 games in April, 73 at bats in 21 games in May, and 66 at bats in 20 games in June.

In other words when he put up his .182/.316/.197 line in June, he was getting about the same playing time as the rest of the season.
Interesting. It seems like he's not getting the playing time that he was.

JRIG
07-05-2004, 03:20 PM
Interesting. It seems like he's not getting the playing time that he was.
Yes, he is. I failed to mention (my fault) that he had four more walks in June than any other month this season. Which means his plate appearances are just about equal each month --

76 in April
81 in May
79 in June

PaleHoseGeorge
07-05-2004, 03:47 PM
Yes, he is. I failed to mention (my fault) that he had four more walks in June than any other month this season. Which means his plate appearances are just about equal each month --

76 in April
81 in May
79 in June
I would say we got about as much as we could hope for from Mr. Harris. The league's pitchers have caught up to him.

New lead-off man?

Anybody?

Bueller?

:wink:

TaylorStSox
07-05-2004, 03:51 PM
I would say we got about as much as we could hope for from Mr. Harris. The league's pitchers have caught up to him.

New lead-off man?

Anybody?

Bueller?

:wink:
Maybe a slump? He's still hitting .270 with an OBA of .351. He's only appeared to be "overmatched" at a few periods of the season. Hey so has Frank, and PK and Lee. It happens. Guys go through stages where they aren't seeing the ball well. This may be one of them.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-05-2004, 03:57 PM
Maybe a slump? He's still hitting .270 with an OBA of .351. He's only appeared to be "overmatched" at a few periods of the season. Hey so has Frank, and PK and Lee. It happens. Guys go through stages where they aren't seeing the ball well. This may be one of them.
Perhaps you're right. However unlike Frank or anybody else you mentioned, Willie has never proven he can handle the role we're expecting of him. That might be okay if the Sox weren't trying to win something this year but I'm not comfortable hoping and praying Willie pulls out of it. It would be criminal to give a job to a slumping lead-off man the next 3 months.

Lots of players look good when nobody knows how to pitch to them. Willie doesn't get the benefit of being an unknown quantity to the opposition anymore. That's what has me nervous about this.

I hope he pulls out of it, too.

TaylorStSox
07-05-2004, 04:04 PM
Perhaps you're right. However unlike Frank or anybody else you mentioned, Willie has never proven he can handle the role we're expecting of him. That might be okay if the Sox weren't trying to win something this year but I'm not comfortable hoping and praying Willie pulls out of it. It would be criminal to give a job to a slumping lead-off man the next 3 months.

Lots of players look good when nobody knows how to pitch to them. Willie doesn't get the benefit of being an unknown quantity to the opposition anymore. That's what has me nervous about this.

I hope he pulls out of it, too.
He's hitting too many flyballs, but he's making good contact alot of times. sans yesterday. He's definitely slumping, but not looking nearly as clueless as he was earlier in his career.

Actually, I'd like to see him turn on more balls. He's so intent on slapping the ball the other way or "getting a job done" that sometimes he doesn't go with his instincts. Anybody who's made it to this level on limited talent/size has to have decent instincts. He can turn on a ball and pull it. We've all seen it with our own eyes. In fact, I think his first Sox AB was a homer IIRC.

he_gone_89
07-05-2004, 06:13 PM
Maybe a slump? He's still hitting .270 with an OBA of .351. He's only appeared to be "overmatched" at a few periods of the season. Hey so has Frank, and PK and Lee. It happens. Guys go through stages where they aren't seeing the ball well. This may be one of them.
well,i dunno about everybody else on this site but,i think that a year and a half is a long slump. a lead-off hitter's job is to get on base,and he's doing everything but getting on base. He's got execptional speed and he's a great infielder,but he is a poor hitter,He's like Carl Lewis crossed between Bob Uecker

If we trade him,we wont be able to get anybody better than him,just players like him. One guy i would like to see in a sox uniform is Pokey Reese,which at first,seemed near impossible with Nomar on the bench and possibly out of boston,but with the recent slump of the red sox,it could be possible. And if it is,we also have a chance in getting a good catcher in either Doug Mirabelli or Jason Varitek.

hawkjt
07-05-2004, 06:42 PM
Was that .324 average he carried into mid-june a complete mirage? He is not getting regular at bats since Maggs went on the DL- all those june at bats were early in the month. I say he has to play against a fight-hander to be given a real shot at busting this slump. Our left-handed hitters are so weak against leftys.
Our record against leftys is bad this year even with the righty hitters. Why?

space_monkey
07-05-2004, 07:38 PM
I dont want to give up on Willie yet. I dont think anyone really expected him to continue hitting .320

And while it was pointed out that he has been getting around the same number at bats, maybe the fact that they arent coming regularly explains his struggles.

But I agree with taylorstsox when he voices concern over willies low SB numbers. He should be utilizing his best asset more aggressively- his speed.

I think he'll come out of this though. Plus, how many other real base stealing threats do they have?

And who would come up if he were sent down?

At least his OBP is sorta kinda half decent... right?

JRIG
07-05-2004, 07:43 PM
At least his OBP is sorta kinda half decent... right?
Wille OBP in 2002: .270
In 2003: .259
In April 2004: .299
In May: .439
In June: .316
In July (only 3 games): .125

Which of these things is not like the others? Which of these things just doesn't belong?

space_monkey
07-05-2004, 07:58 PM
Wille OBP in 2002: .270
In 2003: .259
In April 2004: .299
In May: .439
In June: .316
In July (only 3 games): .125

Which of these things is not like the others? Which of these things just doesn't belong?
uhh... the May OBP looks a little uncharacteristic.
good point, those statistics dont really lie

but you know I gotta pull for the guy. CMON WILLIE

Man those percentages are a bit disheartening though.

I still think regular at bats will help. during that stretch where he was doing well it looks like he had a nice stretch of consistent starts. I mean one can say that the reason he stopped getting ABs was because of his fall off in production, but he hasnt really gotten a steady chance since then.

am I reaching?

CMON WILLIE

red faber
07-06-2004, 01:54 AM
I don't see any reason why Willie should be on this team right now. Send him to the minors so he can start driving the ball again. It's been about a month since he hit a ball hard.

it's not just that.

it's also the fact that the guy takes way too many hittable pitches!!!!!!!!!!

it's like he's been downright afraid to swing the bat lately!!!!!!

mcfish
07-06-2004, 02:59 PM
I understand your frustration and I just started a new thread in this regard, but Crede has a long way to go to reach Wee Willie territory. Harris has trouble getting the ball out of the infield. Has Crede been infuriating? Yes. But his defense is important at 3B, and he does have 12 HR's. Willie is not even stealing bases anymore. Of course that's tough to do when you can't get on base. I think he should bunt every time. Even if they knew it was coming he could get on more than the .182 clip he hit in June! :D:
When was the last time Willie got a bunt single? He at least fakes bunt nearly every AB - and it almost never works. He is awful with 2 strikes on him, especially when it's because he's screwed up 2 bunts and now has to try to swing away. Even when he does get a bunt down in fair territory, the other team could see it coming from a mile away and are in perfect position. He isn't very good bunter anyway. The only reason he's laid down more successful bunts down than anybody else is because he tries like 10 times as many as anyone else. Don't even get me started on the lack of stolen bases when he does manage to get on base.

mcfish
07-06-2004, 03:02 PM
At least his OBP is sorta kinda half decent... right?
You have to be able to take a walk to have a higher OBP than BA. In fact, I wish Willie would be able to take a walk and turn it into a double for a change on his usual ground/bunt out.

Malgar 12
07-06-2004, 04:07 PM
When was the last time Willie got a bunt single? He at least fakes bunt nearly every AB - and it almost never works. He is awful with 2 strikes on him, especially when it's because he's screwed up 2 bunts and now has to try to swing away. Even when he does get a bunt down in fair territory, the other team could see it coming from a mile away and are in perfect position. He isn't very good bunter anyway. The only reason he's laid down more successful bunts down than anybody else is because he tries like 10 times as many as anyone else. Don't even get me started on the lack of stolen bases when he does manage to get on base.
I agree, he sucks. That's why that last line had a smiley face, it was sarcastic. (I'm more of an emoticon guy than a teal guy.):D: (oh the irony!)

mcfish
07-06-2004, 05:19 PM
He's hitting too many flyballs, but he's making good contact alot of times. sans yesterday. He's definitely slumping, but not looking nearly as clueless as he was earlier in his career.

Actually, I'd like to see him turn on more balls. He's so intent on slapping the ball the other way or "getting a job done" that sometimes he doesn't go with his instincts. Anybody who's made it to this level on limited talent/size has to have decent instincts. He can turn on a ball and pull it. We've all seen it with our own eyes. In fact, I think his first Sox AB was a homer IIRC.If Harris is hitting too many fly balls, then he should be doing 50 times that many push-ups, because there is no reason for Willie Mays Harris to be putting the ball in the air. He needs to hit line drives and grounders to holes.

And when someone said that they were concerned that he only has 2 extra base hits, I would say that every hit should be an extra base hit for Willie if he really is as fast as they say he is. Why doesn't he try to steal anymore?

9 Stolen Bases! That's it. And only 2 CS! Which means Lee and Uribe have tried just as many times as he has (they are tied with 7 SB and 4 CS). And Rowand is tied with him at 9 SB, but he only has 1 CS. What happened to the team that had the crazy idea of sending Paulie about 90 feet in April? I thought I read that the Sox were going to try to run a lot this year.

Sox are 8th in the AL in attempts with 68 (46 SB, 22 CS), 8th in the AL in success rate at 67.64%.