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View Full Version : Guillen says Frank will be benched again


compy75
07-03-2004, 10:36 PM
As per the Chicago Tribune tonight, they reported that "Frank Thomas was limited to pinch-hitting duties Saturday for the second straight game and struck out, as he did Friday. Guillen said Thomas will likely be on the bench for the series finale Sunday."

How do you not start him ONCE this entire series. He's #2 in OPS for god's sake. It's the crosstown series. This tinkering has put him in the funk he's been in. Am I alone when I say this is completely illogical?? The double standard with Konerko getting starts is retarded. It seems whatever "respect" Ozzie had for Frank that showed to the media in the beginning of the year is all but gone through his decisions in the past few weeks. Heck, we don't need a guy with the #2 OBP and 5th slugging in our lineup ONCE this series. Bring out the broomsticks. :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

OEO Magglio
07-03-2004, 10:41 PM
Oh boy what the heck is ozzie doing.:?: These national league games absolutely suck.:angry:

WhiteSox = Life
07-03-2004, 10:42 PM
This is just freakin' ridiculous.

Having Frank pinch-hit is practically a waste while you're at it because he is not suited for that role. He looks to find a pitch and takes a few and suddenly, he's down 1-2 or 0-2 in the at-bat against a guy he hasn't faced all game or a bullpen guy, in which case, he hasn't batted all game. His pinch-hitting career average is around .150 or so and if anything, Frank might draw a walk.

It's just not worth it and is probably better to bring in a first-pitch-fastball hitter. Hmm... Sounds like PK might be a decent choice at pinch-hitting... Oh, wait... He's starting again. Aw, too bad.

Seriously, let Frank play Sunday, Ozzie.

:angry:

JRIG
07-03-2004, 10:49 PM
Yes, but think of all the 3-6-3 double plays we've turned in this serries thanks to Paulie. And the massive number of pick-off throws over to first base.

Besides, with Mags out of the lineup we already have enough offense, what with Harris and Uribe struggling and the black hole of death behind the plate.

This is so stupid. And you wonder why we struggle in games in NL parks.

Kogs35
07-03-2004, 10:54 PM
i just want tuesday to come so i can see garcia pitch at home.

OEO Magglio
07-03-2004, 10:58 PM
i just want tuesday to come so i can see garcia pitch at home.I'm thinking about driving up there for that game, I really want to see garcia's first game pitched at the cell.

CWSGuy406
07-04-2004, 12:31 AM
Wow - all I could do is shake my head at that one. I'm stunned. :o:

Frank needs to be in the lineup. NEEDS to be.

Brian26
07-04-2004, 12:31 AM
What's really tough in this situation is that our hitters aren't getting any real BP before the games. Working in the cages isn't the same as hitting live pitching. So, Frank's coming off the bench ultra-cold in these pinch hitting spots. Real tough to do.

Kogs35
07-04-2004, 12:45 AM
What's really tough in this situation is that our hitters aren't getting any real BP before the games. Working in the cages isn't the same as hitting live pitching. So, Frank's coming off the bench ultra-cold in these pinch hitting spots. Real tough to do.
i think it was 99 or 2000 before the games at wrigely the sox would goto comisky and take bp at 9am then head on over to wrigely for the games since they knew they would not be able to take bp at wrigely

jeremyb1
07-04-2004, 01:00 AM
Either way we have to take one of our two best players out of the lineup which is really rough. Our roster is built for AL play so the fact that we have to play 6 or 9 games in NL parks really hurts us. That said, Ozzie is exacerbating the problem by choosing to sit the better of the two hitters for three consecutive games.

mdep524
07-04-2004, 01:15 AM
As per the Chicago Tribune tonight, they reported that "Frank Thomas was limited to pinch-hitting duties Saturday for the second straight game and struck out, as he did Friday. Guillen said Thomas will likely be on the bench for the series finale Sunday."

How do you not start him ONCE this entire series. He's #2 in OPS for god's sake. It's the crosstown series. This tinkering has put him in the funk he's been in. Am I alone when I say this is completely illogical?? The double standard with Konerko getting starts is retarded. It seems whatever "respect" Ozzie had for Frank that showed to the media in the beginning of the year is all but gone through his decisions in the past few weeks. Heck, we don't need a guy with the #2 OBP and 5th slugging in our lineup ONCE this series. Bring out the broomsticks. :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:
Gotta say this is a stupid decision by Ozzie. I respect him, but sometimes he makes bad choices. I could live with Paulie starting two of the three games because he is currently the hotter hitter, but you can't bench the Big Hurt for three straight games, he is so vital to this offense. I would have started him against Maddux and started Konerko vs. Zambrano and Rusch.

I agree, Frank is not suited for pinch hitting. When he came up today I had a feeling he would strike out. Honestly, I would have used Gload in that situation.

Lastly, Ozzie's justification that he didn't "prepare" Frank for 1B by playing him in the field the week before is BS. Frank just played 1B about 10 days ago, so he wouldn't need to be "re-prepared." Plus that whole logic doesn't make sense anyway, because by that logic whichever game Frank plays 1b for the first time in will be a sacrifice. So is he saying that by playing Frank at 1B against an AL team to prep him for the NL game is just wasting that AL game?

Nellie_Fox
07-04-2004, 02:10 AM
Just ask yourself: If this was a National League club, with Frank and Paulie on the roster, who would be the regular 1B? You know it would be Frank. The corner positions are offensive positions. You have to have Frank's bat in the lineup. So why is it any different for the interleague games? Sorry Paulie; if I'm managing, you sit.

FoulkeFan
07-04-2004, 07:45 AM
I guess I'll be the only one to disagree with starting Paulie here:

Last weekend PK had 10 RBI vs the cubs.
Frank normally DH's, so that IMO makes him better at coming off the bench since he's used to it anyway.

Either way, it sucks not having both of them in there.

The Critic
07-04-2004, 09:06 AM
What's really tough in this situation is that our hitters aren't getting any real BP before the games. Working in the cages isn't the same as hitting live pitching. So, Frank's coming off the bench ultra-cold in these pinch hitting spots. Real tough to do.
I got to Wrigley at 11am yesterday and the Sox were taking BP. I saw Frank taking his cuts.
So he definitely did get his hacks before the game, but your points about him maybe being unsuited stylistically for pinch-hitting are well-taken.
I can't believe Oz doesn't want Frank to get a full 4 at-bats in ANY game this weekend. Makes no sense....

PaleHoseGeorge
07-04-2004, 09:16 AM
I got to Wrigley at 11am yesterday and the Sox were taking BP. I saw Frank taking his cuts.
So he definitely did get his hacks before the game, but your points about him maybe being unsuited stylistically for pinch-hitting are well-taken.
I can't believe Oz doesn't want Frank to get a full 4 at-bats in ANY game this weekend. Makes no sense....Two of a kind idiots...

:jerry + :ozzie

"We live and die by the 3-6-3 double play!"

RawisTheGameHhH
07-04-2004, 09:35 AM
According to Farmer and Rooney, Thomas is going to start tonight, they mentioned that during their broadcast yesterday!

RKMeibalane
07-04-2004, 11:09 AM
Two of a kind idiots...

:jerry + :ozzie

"We live and die by the 3-6-3 double play!"
Or better yet...

:jerry + :ozzie

"We can't imagine any reason short of an emergency for playing Frank at first base."

RKMeibalane
07-04-2004, 11:11 AM
PUT FRANK AT FIRST! PUT FRANK AT FIRST! PUT FRANK AT FIRST! PUT FRANK AT FIRST! PUT FRANK AT FIRST! PUT FRANK AT FIRST! PUT FRANK AT FIRST! PUT FRANK AT FIRST! PUT FRANK AT FIRST!

Greg1983
07-04-2004, 11:16 AM
...but stupidity of this magnitude it too much to take.

I think Ozzie has been really good for this team, and I've had no major quibbles with him until now. But this is straight out of the Manuel handbook.

It's bad enough that the national media and most baseball fans overlook Frank. For his own manager to do it, when the man is second or third in the AL in OPS, is just intolerable.

:mad:

The Critic
07-04-2004, 11:23 AM
Two of a kind idiots...

:jerry + :ozzie

"We live and die by the 3-6-3 double play!"
If his decision really is based on Thomas' relatively weak throwing arm, that's entirely ridiculous.
Frank plays a better 1B than he gets credit for, with the exception of his throwing ability, and for that to keep him out of a pretty important series makes ZERO sense. I know PK had a huge series last week against the Cubs, but Frank needs to get in there at least ONCE to get his 4 ABs.
I just don't understand the thinking here.

RKMeibalane
07-04-2004, 11:24 AM
...but stupidity of this magnitude it too much to take.

I think Ozzie has been really good for this team, and I've had no major quibbles with him until now. But this is straight out of the Manuel handbook.

It's bad enough that the national media and most baseball fans overlook Frank. For his own manager to do it, when the man is second or third in the AL in OPS, is just intolerable.

:mad:
Not to mention the fact that Thomas is 4-7 (.571) in his career against Rusch. Konerko has never faced him. It's really pathetic that one of the best hitters in the American League can't even get playing time on his own team. The Sox organization has its priorities so screwed up right now. Instead of worrying about putting their best players out there, they're concerned about the 3-6-3 double play. Give me a ****ing break!

RKMeibalane
07-04-2004, 11:25 AM
If his decision really is based on Thomas' relatively weak throwing arm, that's entirely ridiculous.
Frank plays a better 1B than he gets credit for, with the exception of his throwing ability, and for that to keep him out of a pretty important series makes ZERO sense. I know PK had a huge series last week against the Cubs, but Frank needs to get in there at least ONCE to get his 4 ABs.
I just don't understand the thinking here.
:ozzie

"Don't question my authority. I make the ****ing lineup!"

The Critic
07-04-2004, 11:30 AM
:ozzie

"Don't question my authority. I make the ****ing lineup!"
:D: :D: :D:
VERY nice!!!

compy75
07-04-2004, 11:42 AM
Straight out of the Sun Times:

''I don't think Frank is going to be in the lineup,'' Guillen said. ''The way [Paul] Konerko is swinging the bat, he has to be in the lineup.''

I mean seriously I want to hit Ozzie straight across the face. It's a complete CONTRADICTION from when Frank was hot. Let me get this right, Frank hits 4 home runs in 3 games, and he doesn't play b/c Konerko needs the ABs. Now the situation is reversed, and bam Ozzie says the complete opposite thing. The CONSTANT SLIGHTING of Frank is getting tiresome. I wonder why the media won't call him out at all....

OEO Magglio
07-04-2004, 12:01 PM
Straight out of the Sun Times:

''I don't think Frank is going to be in the lineup,'' Guillen said. ''The way [Paul] Konerko is swinging the bat, he has to be in the lineup.''

I mean seriously I want to hit Ozzie straight across the face. It's a complete CONTRADICTION from when Frank was hot. Let me get this right, Frank hits 4 home runs in 3 games, and he doesn't play b/c Konerko needs the ABs. Now the situation is reversed, and bam Ozzie says the complete opposite thing. The CONSTANT SLIGHTING of Frank is getting tiresome. I wonder why the media won't call him out at all....Yeah, what the hell is ozzie doing. Frank was the hottest hitter in baseball during the first tour of national league parks but he splits the games with pauly. Now pauly is hot and he plays all 3, give me a break, frank is the better hitter, play him.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-04-2004, 12:08 PM
Yeah, what the hell is ozzie doing. Frank was the hottest hitter in baseball during the first tour of national league parks but he splits the games with pauly. Now pauly is hot and he plays all 3, give me a break, frank is the better hitter, play him.
I hope to God that Guillen is simply under orders from Williams to play Konerko to showcase him for a trade. I hope to God that's the real reason for all of this. It makes no sense otherwise, unless the Sox front office is just plain dumb.

:walnuts
"What is Atlanta like this time of year?"

soxtalker
07-04-2004, 12:10 PM
I guess I'll be the only one to disagree with starting Paulie here:

Last weekend PK had 10 RBI vs the cubs.
Frank normally DH's, so that IMO makes him better at coming off the bench since he's used to it anyway.

Either way, it sucks not having both of them in there.
I agree with you and the two reasons you gave.

I know that the theme of Frank playing 1B is a popular one with many of my fellow members of WSI, but I just don't buy it. Frank's been on the team a long time, and that bridge was crossed in the early 90's. I wish he had the mobility (remember the play that ended our season in 2000?) and throwing arm to play it regularly. But it isn't just Ozzie and Manuel who have come to the conclusion that he doesn't.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-04-2004, 12:14 PM
I agree with you and the two reasons you gave.

I know that the theme of Frank playing 1B is a popular one with many of my fellow members of WSI, but I just don't buy it. Frank's been on the team a long time, and that bridge was crossed in the early 90's. I wish he had the mobility (remember the play that ended our season in 2000?) and throwing arm to play it regularly. But it isn't just Ozzie and Manuel who have come to the conclusion that he doesn't.
I don't think anyone feels Frank ought to be the everyday firstbasemen. I know I certainly don't. However we're only talking about a handful of interleague games here. Certainly Frank can handle this. Our line up is already missing Maggs and with Frank sitting on the bench our offense is missing its two best hitters. No team can survive this sort of bad luck and foolish managerial decision.

Sorry, but Konerko has to pay the price. This situation is not tolerable.

compy75
07-04-2004, 12:15 PM
I agree with you and the two reasons you gave.

I know that the theme of Frank playing 1B is a popular one with many of my fellow members of WSI, but I just don't buy it. Frank's been on the team a long time, and that bridge was crossed in the early 90's. I wish he had the mobility (remember the play that ended our season in 2000?) and throwing arm to play it regularly. But it isn't just Ozzie and Manuel who have come to the conclusion that he doesn't.
We're not talking regularly...I don't think anyone is arguing he should be the everyday 1B. The resounding thought is that should play ONE game against our intercity rivals. Wouldn't it be ironic if he made the All Star Team and we don't value him enough to start 1 out of 3 games?

tweek57
07-04-2004, 12:16 PM
All that you hear on the tv broadcasts of the games is how awesome it is for ozzie to have Big Frank comming off the bench. The truth is Frank in his career is a horrible pinch hitter. Frank in his career as a PH he is:

4 for 23; .174 ba
1 hr.
4 rbi
10 so
1 bb

Horrible!!:angry:

alohafri
07-04-2004, 12:29 PM
As per the Chicago Tribune tonight, they reported that "Frank Thomas was limited to pinch-hitting duties Saturday for the second straight game and struck out, as he did Friday. Guillen said Thomas will likely be on the bench for the series finale Sunday."

How do you not start him ONCE this entire series. He's #2 in OPS for god's sake.
Looks like Ozzie Manuel strikes again!

RKMeibalane
07-04-2004, 12:36 PM
I'm going to throw out an analogy here, one that I've used many times before when discussing the "Frank at 1B" situation. As most everyone who follows basketball knows, Shaquille O'Neal is a horrible free-throw. Statistically, he is on eof the worst in the history of the NBA. However, I don't think anyone disputes Shaq's value to whatever team (Orlando, Los Angeles, Dallas?) he plays on.

Imagine what would happen if someone like Phil Jackson or Don Nelson said, "I can't imagine any reason short of an emergency for playing Shaq during the fourth quarter of games."

This constant misuse of Frank Thomas has gotten old. He is still this team's best hitter, and until there is iron-clad proof that he isn't, he needs to be out there. It is the responsibility of every manager to put his best players on the field. I'm sorry, but given the choice between Thomas and Konerko, it has to be Thomas. He's one who's going into the HOF; he's the one who plays. Period.

HaroldFan
07-04-2004, 01:18 PM
Last weekend at the Cell in the only series the Cubs have played in an American league park since Sosa came off the DL Baker dhd Sosa 2 of the 3 games and put Hollandsworth in right. The reasons are not hard to figure. Hollandsworth is obviously the far superior fielder. But he's also been the better hitter this year. His OPS this morning is still higher than Sosa's. Better fielder. Better hitter. And yet when the decision came Monday to go back to only one in the lineup everyone knew there was no chance in hell it was going to be Hollandsworth. Partly because after 13 years on one team Sosa has earned the right not to be jerked around as long as he's still productive but more importantly because if they can get Sosa hot he can go on a tear that Hollandsworth is simply incapable of.

At the beginning of interleague play Frank was already hot. In the first road game he hit an 8th inning three run home run to bring the Sox back from the dead and make their miracle win that night possible. After that game he was tied for the lead in home runs, 1st in OBP, 2nd in SLG and 1st in OPS. And what did the Sox do? 3 of the next 5 days he sat. Why? Paul Konerko is simply incapable of producing at that level. The "red hot" Konerko we have benched Thomas for this weekend is currently 31st in OBP, 10th in slugging and 11th in OPS. (While Thomas is still respectivelly 1st, 5th, and 2nd)

Defense? Though still an inadequate excuse one might at least be able to make an argument if Konerko were a good first baseman. Except he isn't. He's terrible. In Stats Inc. zone rating, out of 21 major league 1st basemen with enough appearances to qualify Konerko is 19th. Well at least this is an improvement over last year when he was 22nd out of 22. This ranking will come as no surprise to anyone who watches Konerko routinely wave feebly at balls barely to his left or right. No organization in their right mind would treat Thomas the way the Sox do. I absolutely do not undersatnd it.

One last point for those who aren't old enough to remember the early '70s and to remind those who are. Dick Allen couldn't throw. Well he could, he simply had no idea where the ball was going to go. The reason he had to move to first was because he severed the nerves in a couple fingers in his throwing hand. It's hard to guide a ball if you can't feel it. I can remember runners on pick off throws to first simply taking off for second because the odds were he'd heave the ball into left field. In 1973 the dh came into existence. Did the Sox then force their defending MVP to become a dh? Of course not. Why would you want to mess with the head of your best player? In 1973-74 Allen dhd all of twice. And one of those was when he was trying to stay in the lineup despite a broken leg. (I remember it. He went 3-5).

StepsInSC
07-04-2004, 07:58 PM
I guess I'll be the only one to disagree with starting Paulie here:

Last weekend PK had 10 RBI vs the cubs.
Frank normally DH's, so that IMO makes him better at coming off the bench since he's used to it anyway.

Either way, it sucks not having both of them in there.
Paulie is a Cub killer, but the second argument doesn't really hold water. Frank has been a much better hitter throughout his career when playing first base, and saving your best hitter because you want to be able to PH him doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

minastirith67
07-04-2004, 08:26 PM
I'll go on record saying we lose because Frank Thomas is not in the lineup tonight.

Voice of Reason
07-04-2004, 08:38 PM
He could at least use Frank to pinch hit for Timo against a lefty with two runners in scoring position. What is wrong with Guillen?

edit: Nevermind they probably would have just walked Frank to face Burke.

soxtalker
07-04-2004, 08:48 PM
All that you hear on the tv broadcasts of the games is how awesome it is for ozzie to have Big Frank comming off the bench. The truth is Frank in his career is a horrible pinch hitter. Frank in his career as a PH he is:

4 for 23; .174 ba
1 hr.
4 rbi
10 so
1 bb

Horrible!!:angry:
I wonder why Frank has such a poor record as a pinch hitter? In addition to being used to coming off the bench as a DH, he has always seemed to do well in his first at bat in a game (first inning).

RKMeibalane
07-04-2004, 08:53 PM
I wonder why Frank has such a poor record as a pinch hitter? In addition to being used to coming off the bench as a DH, he has always seemed to do well in his first at bat in a game (first inning).
Because as a pinch-hitter, he's coming into the game cold.

soxtalker
07-04-2004, 09:05 PM
Because as a pinch-hitter, he's coming into the game cold.
Isn't that the case when he bats as a DH?

RKMeibalane
07-04-2004, 09:07 PM
Isn't that the case when he bats as a DH?
No. When he is the DH, he has time before the game to think about the pitcher he's facing, so he can prepare for his at-bats that night. He also knows (for the most part) when he will be getting his at-bats during the course of the game, so he can spend time in the batting cage (during home games) when he's not sitting in the dugout.

oldcomiskey
07-05-2004, 07:14 AM
Either way we have to take one of our two best players out of the lineup which is really rough. Our roster is built for AL play so the fact that we have to play 6 or 9 games in NL parks really hurts us. That said, Ozzie is exacerbating the problem by choosing to sit the better of the two hitters for three consecutive games.
the better of two hitters?
Konerko has been lighting it up lately, and Thomas just stands there with his finger up his ass and his mind in Georgia.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-05-2004, 09:26 AM
the better of two hitters?
Konerko has been lighting it up lately, and Thomas just stands there with his finger up his ass and his mind in Georgia.
I can't believe anyone would be foolish enough to suggest Konerko is a better hitter than Thomas. This is absurd.

oldcomiskey
07-05-2004, 10:42 AM
I can't believe anyone would be foolish enough to suggest Konerko is a better hitter than Thomas. This is absurd.
Im not saying Paul is a better hitter but Ozzie has got to go with the hot hand--and how may times times had Frank struck out looking at 2 or 3 strikes---its like sometimes hes waiting for a walk

PaleHoseGeorge
07-05-2004, 10:55 AM
Im not saying Paul is a better hitter but Ozzie has got to go with the hot hand--and how may times times had Frank struck out looking at 2 or 3 strikes---its like sometimes hes waiting for a walkI guess my memory is better than yours.

I remember Frank Thomas being the hottest hitter in the entire league back in early-June. I remember Frank winning the very first inter-league game we played against the Marlins back on June 15. And I also remember Ozzie *benching* Frank for the next two games with the lame excuse that Paulie needed his at-bats, too. He cooled off, and he struck out in three pinch hitting appearances this weekend while the Sox got swept. Did I mention that he is our best hitter after Maggs, who by the way is unavailable to play? How many teams win when they don't play their two best hitters for an entire series?

It sort of undercuts the whole premise behind the argument you've used above to justify this silly move, doesn't it? Bench Frank for Konerko, but don't bench Konerko for Thomas? Gimmee a break...

If the Sox were a National League team there is no way Ozzie would ever bench Frank in favor of Konerko when his best available hitter was ready for duty. This is silly.