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Lip Man 1
07-02-2004, 11:26 PM
For what it's worth:

I was just watching the replay of the Red Sox / Braves game via WSBK (it's not blacked-out tonight) and Sean McDonough the Boston announcer was saying that the Atlanta newspapers today were reporting that the White Sox are still interested in Andruw Jones.

That's all he said because the inning ended.

Lip

Cowch44
07-02-2004, 11:47 PM
Why wouldn't we be....He's an All Star, Gold Glove CF which is something we don't quite have.

SOXintheBURGH
07-03-2004, 12:46 AM
Maggs to Atlanta for Jones/Anyone worthwhile (not Chipper) has to be done I think.

JB98
07-03-2004, 12:51 AM
Why wouldn't we be....He's an All Star, Gold Glove CF which is something we don't quite have.
He's not an All-Star this year. Check the numbers. I think the Sox would be taking a huge risk acquiring him, given the large contract he has over the next three years.

I'm satisfied with Rowand as the centerfielder. Let's drop the trade talk and sign Magglio.

Nellie_Fox
07-03-2004, 01:04 AM
I'm satisfied with Rowand as the centerfielder. Let's drop the trade talk and sign Magglio.Well, I'm not satisfied with Rowand as the centerfielder. He's only average defensively, and center is a defensive position.

I don't watch NL, but I'm told that Jones may be better defensively than Torii Hunter. I can live with that. If what has been reported is true, Maggs has turned down money that is probably more than he's worth. If so, then the Sox need to move him now while they can get something for him.

California Sox
07-03-2004, 01:13 AM
Andruw Jones is immensely talented, no doubt about it. But it seems most of the time he doesn't care, which is why a guy with a world of talent is hitting .250 with a ton of strikeouts. Yeah, he's better defensively than Rowand but couldn't that money be better spent elsewhere? Plus, in two years when Anderson is our centerfielder, we'll be happy we don't have that contract. (By the way, Anderson was 2-3 with a walk and a triplefor Birmingham. J. Reed, 2-4 with a triple for Seattle's AAA club.)

HomeFish
07-03-2004, 01:16 AM
Is Ortiz still being mentioned? I think that would be the key to that deal, the thing making it beneficial to us.

Blob
07-03-2004, 08:41 AM
He's not an All-Star this year. Check the numbers. I think the Sox would be taking a huge risk acquiring him, given the large contract he has over the next three years.

I'm satisfied with Rowand as the centerfielder. Let's drop the trade talk and sign Magglio.
Agreed 100%. Thank you!!!

greenpeach
07-03-2004, 01:53 PM
Andruw Jones is immensely talented, no doubt about it. But it seems most of the time he doesn't care, which is why a guy with a world of talent is hitting .250 with a ton of strikeouts. Yeah, he's better defensively than Rowand but couldn't that money be better spent elsewhere? Plus, in two years when Anderson is our centerfielder, we'll be happy we don't have that contract. (By the way, Anderson was 2-3 with a walk and a triplefor Birmingham. J. Reed, 2-4 with a triple for Seattle's AAA club.)
Andruw Jones has two major problems right now. The first is that he's a very undisciplined hitter, especially with runners in scoring position & less then two outs. He has a terrible habit of of chasing breaking pitches out of the strike zone.

The second problem is his weight. Right now, I would estimate that he's at least 15-20 pounds over his ideal playing weight. The extra weight is especially noticeable when he's running around the bases. It hasn't really seemed to effect his defense in center field. Many Braves insiders are blaming his spare tire on his mother's home cooking. No joke. His mom just recently moved to Atlanta to be closer to her son & WOTS is that she's a great cook. :D:

TomParrish79
07-03-2004, 02:46 PM
The only way this trade should be made is if Maggs is sent to Atlanta for Ortiz and Jones.


Rowand is garbage plain and simple and will never EVER be someone who is a major contributer to this team. NO offense to the Rowand supporters out there, this is just my opinion.


With that being said... I hope we can resign Maggs. And if KW sees that we cant, I am sure he will get us something of equal value in return.

ma-gaga
07-03-2004, 03:17 PM
I don't watch NL, but I'm told that Jones may be better defensively than Torii Hunter. I can live with that.
Andruw Jones has two major problems right now. The first is that he's a very undisciplined hitter, especially with runners in scoring position & less then two outs. He has a terrible habit of of chasing breaking pitches out of the strike zone Nellie, I've heard that A.Jones is much better at going backwards than T.Hunter, which is why he plays so shallow all the time. He can get away with it. But Hunter has better lateral movement, and is much better at "robbing" homeruns.

greenpeach, If you want to continue the comparison to T.Hunter that sounds exactly the same to me. Hunter cannot layoff anything in the dirt. You have to play these guys for their defensive skill first, and hope they give you a little offensively. The Twins trying to bat T.Hunter in the 5th spot is a waste. They should shift him down to the 6th spot and let one of their disciplined kids take the 5th spot. I wouldn't worry about it, you just take his offense as gravy.

It's a dumb trade. Offense for defense. Maybe the W.Sox have enough offense that they don't NEED Magglio's bat. I think if they make this trade it will backfire on them. I think you HAVE to keep Magglio, and let him walk away at the end of this year unless someone offers you a deal that blows you away.

I don't see it happening.

:)

Jerome
07-03-2004, 06:20 PM
I don't really care how good defense he plays so long as he can hit. How many games have we lost this year because of bad defense? 2 against the Cubs? Can you think of many more? Aaron Rowand's defense in center is fine. It's not like he is so bad that he costs us games. Billy Beane was on to something when he stopped using defense as a measure of a player's worth. More often than not, teams will overpay for defense. (cough Edgardo Alfonso cough). Carlos Beltran will save a run every now and again with a great catch, but his real value is his offense. If Andruw Jones doesn't hit at least close to what Maggs does, I don't want KW telling us about his Gold Gloves as the reason he made the trade. GIVE ROWAND A CHANCE!

Sox fans, don't let a stretch of 3 two-run games against Santana, Zambrano, and Maddux (not even a full game) get you down. We are scoring a lot of runs, even W/O Maggs. Imagine what the Sox will do with the DH and Maggs, and against AL central pitching. I don't want to trade Maggs!

Soxfest
07-03-2004, 06:22 PM
He's not an All-Star this year. Check the numbers. I think the Sox would be taking a huge risk acquiring him, given the large contract he has over the next three years.

I'm satisfied with Rowand as the centerfielder. Let's drop the trade talk and sign Magglio.
AR please, Trade Maggs and his inflated demands a change of scenery for AJ would be GREAT.

Cowch44
07-03-2004, 06:30 PM
When I said "Why wouldn't we be?" I was saying it in terms of keeping Maggs and somehow getting Andruw. He's not an All-star this year, but he's had his years. I'd much rather keep Maggs and ignore the Braves, but if it's possible to have both why not?

bmac5001
07-03-2004, 07:00 PM
I think if they make this trade it will backfire on them. I think you HAVE to keep Magglio, and let him walk away at the end of this year unless someone offers you a deal that blows you away.
not directing this at you personally (as i'm sure a lot of people agree with you), but the problem with that is what if we don't happened to get him signed (which seems like a strong possibility right now) and he doesn't lead us to the promise land? what if he comes back and we lose in the first round or the playoffs? or don't even make them? Then he simply walks away and signs with another team and we get nothing in return, not even a successful playoff run. Sure, we have some quality guys in the minors that could fill some outfield positions eventually, but why not get something for him of equal value while we have the chance? and in my opinion Jones and Ortiz are of equal value to Ordonez and a medium-tier prospect or two. Even if Jones is having an off year, i think a change of scenery would definitely help him out, and a better chance of getting to the playoffs would make him play harder as well (because let's face it, this is the first time in a LONG time that the Braves may not win the division or make the playoffs).

So, if Ordonez isn't signing anything we offer him now, then he's obviously not going to at the end of the season. So i say ship him off while we still have a chance to actually get something for him.

Mohoney
07-03-2004, 07:10 PM
Andruw Jones is immensely talented, no doubt about it. But it seems most of the time he doesn't care, which is why a guy with a world of talent is hitting .250 with a ton of strikeouts. Yeah, he's better defensively than Rowand but couldn't that money be better spent elsewhere? Plus, in two years when Anderson is our centerfielder, we'll be happy we don't have that contract. (By the way, Anderson was 2-3 with a walk and a triplefor Birmingham. J. Reed, 2-4 with a triple for Seattle's AAA club.)

AMEN!!! Jones has his head UP HIS ASS on about 75% of his at-bats!!!

If I can get Jones for prospects, then fine. But to give up Maggs? Pure LUNACY!

Plus, Russ Ortiz is the second most OVERRATED pitcher in the NL, behind only Kerry Wood.

4+ ERA in the NL, and people here are ready to ship Maggs off to get this guy?

I'm sorry, but if the shoe fits:
:woo-woo
"Woo! Bad trade! Woo!"

Tragg
07-03-2004, 10:54 PM
If we're going to do something, let's get a little creative with the second player and do better than Russ "walk 'em" Ortiz. A fifth starter is not what we need and that's what Ortiz is.

bmac5001
07-04-2004, 01:25 AM
actually Russ Ortiz's ERA is 3.67 at the moment, which is about a run better than any of our starters (excluding Freddy of course). He walks about two a game on average (51 walks in 103 innings) and strikes out a little over 7 a game. .254 opponent batting average, which seems to be what he's hovered around his whole career. Not sure if that's high or not, as i don't keep an eye on that stat very closely. He's 8-6 for a subpar Braves team as well. That's hardly fifth starter material, and would be a welcome addition to the club in my opinion. Is he (and Jones probably) worth Ordonez? time will tell i guess. Some of you need to check out some stats before you talk though...

OEO Magglio
07-04-2004, 01:28 AM
actually Russ Ortiz's ERA is 3.67 at the moment, which is about a run better than any of our starters (excluding Freddy of course). He walks about two a game on average (51 walks in 103 innings) and strikes out a little over 7 a game. .254 opponent batting average, which seems to be what he's hovered around his whole career. Not sure if that's high or not, as i don't keep an eye on that stat very closely. He's 8-6 for a subpar Braves team as well. That's hardly fifth starter material, and would be a welcome addition to the club in my opinion. Is he (and Jones probably) worth Ordonez? time will tell i guess. Some of you need to check out some stats before you talk though...I for one would not mind ortiz as a 4th starter but where do you get him only walking 2 per game? 51 walks in 103 innings is almost one walk per every two innings which is technically 4.5 walks a game.

bmac5001
07-04-2004, 01:30 AM
ah yes, my fault. your correct on that one. but he doesn't seem to have a 4+ ERA either...

OEO Magglio
07-04-2004, 01:32 AM
ah yes, my fault. your correct on that one. but he doesn't seem to have a 4+ ERA either...Your right about that but people have been saying that because when this rumor originally started his era was right around 4 and now he's had two great starts so his era is dropping back down closer to the mid 3's.

Nellie_Fox
07-04-2004, 02:06 AM
Billy Beane was on to something when he stopped using defense as a measure of a player's worth. As evidenced by the post-season success of the A's.

I still subscribe to the age-old idea that the "up-the-middle" positions (catcher, SS, 2nd, CF) are first and foremost defensive positions. Any offense you get out of them is a bonus. You get your offense from the corners.

gosox41
07-04-2004, 11:02 AM
ah yes, my fault. your correct on that one. but he doesn't seem to have a 4+ ERA either...
I did a post last week looking at Ortiz's vs. Helling's career stats. If you adjust to the AL, Ortiz is very similar to Helling.

Trading Magglio for him is not a good idea.

Why not go after Kris Benson? I liked him from the beginning and he's pitching well right now.



Bob

Win1ForMe
07-04-2004, 11:20 AM
I did a post last week looking at Ortiz's vs. Helling's career stats. If you adjust to the AL, Ortiz is very similar to Helling.

Trading Magglio for him is not a good idea.

Why not go after Kris Benson? I liked him from the beginning and he's pitching well right now.



BobWell, since Russ Ortiz's 3.67 ERA translates to Rick Helling numbers in the AL, then who would Kris Benson's 4.63 ERA compare to? Colby Lewis?

I looked at Ortiz's 3 year splits in AL ballparks, and while it's a small sample size, I would argue that he would perform much better than people think... especially in comparison to Rick Helling.

Yankee Stadium - 1 start, 1.29 ERA, 7 IP
Safeco - 2 starts, 2.35 ERA, 15.1 IP
Network Coliseum - 1 start, 10.80 ERA, 5 IP
Tropicana Field - 1 start, 0.00 ERA, 7.2 IP

I got this from ESPN. Seems like there should be more starts, however.

bmac5001
07-04-2004, 11:28 AM
I did a post last week looking at Ortiz's vs. Helling's career stats. If you adjust to the AL, Ortiz is very similar to Helling.

Trading Magglio for him is not a good idea.

Why not go after Kris Benson? I liked him from the beginning and he's pitching well right now.



Bob
if we could manage to get Kris Benson and Kendall in the same deal, without giving up Maggs of course, i'm all for it. If we are looking at getting Kendall you'd have to think some other Pirate would be involved as well, right?

Tragg
07-04-2004, 12:16 PM
actually Russ Ortiz's ERA is 3.67 at the moment, which is about a run better than any of our starters (excluding Freddy of course). He walks about two a game on average (51 walks in 103 innings) and strikes out a little over 7 a game. .254 opponent batting average, which seems to be what he's hovered around his whole career. Not sure if that's high or not, as i don't keep an eye on that stat very closely. He's 8-6 for a subpar Braves team as well. That's hardly fifth starter material, and would be a welcome addition to the club in my opinion. Is he (and Jones probably) worth Ordonez? time will tell i guess. Some of you need to check out some stats before you talk though...Actually he walks one every other inning-his walks are hideously high.

He's never had a great season, and he's had only 2 with ERAs below 4. And those are NL numbers.

Maybe he's a 4th starter not a 5th - big deal. He's not the missing piece.

gosox41
07-05-2004, 07:54 AM
[QUOTE=Win1ForMe]Well, since Russ Ortiz's 3.67 ERA translates to Rick Helling numbers in the AL, then who would Kris Benson's 4.63 ERA compare to? Colby Lewis?

QUOTE]


Check out there career stats. And look at WHIP, BAA, K/BB ratio, etc. ERA doesn't always tell the whole story in this case for lots of reasons.

I would not trade an All Star RFer for a guy who is highly overrated (and overpaid). If the Sox want to give up very little for Ortiz and his salary then I can understand that. Or if they want to give up a couple of mid-lelvel prospects for him then and have Atlanta eat his contract, I can see that to. But don't give up Maggli Ordonez for him and a guy (Jones) with an attitude problem.


Bob

jamteh
07-05-2004, 11:29 AM
I don't like the idea of this trade with Atlanta. If we're going to trade Maggs, which I hope we don't, I'd only do it for a premier talent having a great season, such as Randy Johnson straight up.

harwar
07-05-2004, 11:40 AM
I don't like the idea of this trade with Atlanta. If we're going to trade Maggs, which I hope we don't, I'd only do it for a premier talent having a great season, such as Randy Johnson straight up.R.Johnson is probably way too expensive for us now,but at least hes' in the ballpark as far as i'm concered.
Maggs will be a huge offensive force in the middle of the lineup when we get him back.
Why is everyone in such a hurry to get rid of him?:?:
I know hes' leaving next year,but what about now?
As for andrew jones,i watch a lot of national league(and AM) and Jones doesn't go back on any ball like he used to.Even when he did,he and Cox were always arguing about it because so many balls were over his head.
If he were to play at the cell he would be spending a lot of time running around on the warning track chasing balls that had bounded over his head.

Brian26
07-05-2004, 11:41 AM
if we could manage to get Kris Benson and Kendall in the same deal, without giving up Maggs of course, i'm all for it.
This is the trade that would absolutely put us over the top as World Series favorites.

1. Rowand
2. Uribe
3. Frank
4. Magglio
5. Lee
6. Konerko
7. Valentin
8. Kendall
9. Crede

Starters:

1. Buehrle
2. Loaiza
3. Garcia
4. Garland
5. Benson

Jerome
07-05-2004, 11:53 AM
As evidenced by the post-season success of the A's.


I'm pretty sure the A's playoffs failures had nothing to do with defense. How many games did they lose because of errors? The reason the A's haven't advanced in the postseason is because either their pitching or their hitting has choked. And the "up-the-middle" theory wastes four spots in the batting order. The top two defensive teams in baseball are the Dodgers and the Expos. How's solid, up the middle defense working out for them? I'm sure they would rather have better hitters.

Defense is overrated, and trading Maggs (offense) for Jones (defense) would be a terrible mistake.

Dan H
07-05-2004, 05:28 PM
No way I would trade for Andruw Jones. The guy has been high maintenance ever since he came into the league. If the Sox must trade Maggs (and I don't think they should), they should look elsewhere.

DickAllen72
07-05-2004, 05:50 PM
This is the trade that would absolutely put us over the top as World Series favorites.

1. Rowand
2. Uribe
3. Frank
4. Magglio
5. Lee
6. Konerko
7. Valentin
8. Kendall
9. Crede

Starters:

1. Buehrle
2. Loaiza
3. Garcia
4. Garland
5. Benson


Kendall should be hitting second in that order with Uribe hitting lower in the order vs. LHP, and Harris leading off vs. RHP.

I like the idea of acquiring Kendall.

johnny_mostil
07-05-2004, 06:40 PM
This is the trade that would absolutely put us over the top as World Series favorites.

1. Rowand
2. Uribe
3. Frank
4. Magglio
5. Lee
6. Konerko
7. Valentin
8. Kendall
9. Crede

Starters:

1. Buehrle
2. Loaiza
3. Garcia
4. Garland
5. Benson
First, Kendall is an on-base machine, so you'd bat him 2nd, not 8th.

Second, Benson is Todd Ritchie Part Deux, except more injury prone. A 4.63 ERA in the NL is a 5.00 in the AL. Why do you want a 5.00 ERA pitcher to displace Schoeneweis? I don't get it.