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fquaye149
07-02-2004, 07:33 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040701soxrowcorner,1,1001855.story?coll=cs-home-headlines


DaDawg, is that you?

delben91
07-02-2004, 07:44 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040701soxrowcorner,1,1001855.story?coll=cs-home-headlines


DaDawg, is that you?

If you look at the by-line, the article is actually from a Minneapolis Star-Tribune writer. Don't know why the Tribune would print something like that...pretty biased against the Sox to give that sort of coverage to them. And we all know the Tribune says they aren't biased...

Dadawg_77
07-02-2004, 08:16 AM
If you look at the by-line, the article is actually from a Minneapolis Star-Tribune writer. Don't know why the Tribune would print something like that...pretty biased against the Sox to give that sort of coverage to them. And we all know the Tribune says they aren't biased...
But it is the truth.

eurotrash35
07-02-2004, 08:28 AM
What a stupid article. This was a bad trade because there were a bunch of other trades that didn't work out? I guess I must have forgot about all of those perfect midseason acquisitions by the Twinks that led to their perinneal World Series appearances. Wait a minute...

FarWestChicago
07-02-2004, 08:48 AM
But it is the truth.:dtroll::

Blob
07-02-2004, 08:52 AM
**** the Minnieapolis Star and **** the flubune.


THEY ARE ALL JEALOUS!!!!!

Dadawg_77
07-02-2004, 10:14 AM
:dtroll::
I forgot you can't disagree with Kenny at all or else you are troll. The Marte trade is the only trade Kenny got impact player. In 36 trades that is a poor percentage.

SEALgep
07-02-2004, 10:18 AM
I forgot you can't disagree with Kenny at all or else you are troll. The Marte trade is the only trade Kenny got impact player. In 36 trades that is a poor percentage.Disagreeing is one thing, but trying to say he isn't a good GM because he takes chances isn't going to appeal to many people here. KW is attempting to put us over the top, and I see that as a positive. Tell me of a GM worth a damn that doesn't go out and take chances.

Tragg
07-02-2004, 10:32 AM
I forgot you can't disagree with Kenny at all or else you are troll. The Marte trade is the only trade Kenny got impact player. In 36 trades that is a poor percentage.Of course how many impact players did he let get away? Kep Wells. Anyone else?

There's no doubt that Williams is not a great bargainer. When he's a buyer he generally pays a lot more than what he got when he was a seller.

Flight #24
07-02-2004, 10:41 AM
Of course how many impact players did he let get away? Kep Wells. Anyone else?

There's no doubt that Williams is not a great bargainer. When he's a buyer he generally pays a lot more than what he got when he was a seller.
But he makes up for it by getting some very solid mid to low level deals. Players like Uribe, Harris, Timo.

As for impact players, I'd argue Olivo was one. Cotts could be one. And of course, Garcia. David Wells would count, as would Colon.

One problem with looking at his trades and trying to ID "impact players" is the for many of the years KW's been GM, the team hasn't been in position where a true impact trade would vault them to/near the top. He's also not been in position to take on salary until this year.

Hard to have a trade for an impact guy if you're not trying to (i.e. there's no point since your'e not in the race), or you can't add his salary.

Blob
07-02-2004, 10:42 AM
Of course how many impact players did he let get away? Kep Wells. Anyone else?

There's no doubt that Williams is not a great bargainer. When he's a buyer he generally pays a lot more than what he got when he was a seller.
I would NOT say Kip was an impact palyer. He has had two winning seasons in the majors....One with the Sox 4 - 1 and last year with the Pirates 10 - 9. He is 3 - 5 this year, that's not exactly impact...

Brian26
07-02-2004, 10:46 AM
As has already been pointed out, the writer was from the Minneapolis paper.

The amazing thing that struck me was that they stated Kenny has made 31 trades since he took over! WOW!

Do we even attempt to start listing them?

I'll give it a start....anyone who can help w/ a media guide, feel free to post.

1. Garcia for Olivo, Reed, Morse.
2. Koch to Florida
3. Glover for Schoenweis
4. Uribe for Miles
5. Lofton to SF for propects
6. Durham to Oakland for prospects
7. Howry to Boston for prospects
8. Sandy to Colorado for prospects
9. Singleton for Willie Harris
10. Sirotka for Wells
11. Almonte for Robbie Alomar
12. Prospects for Carl Everett
13. Hummel for Scott Sullivan
14. Foulke, MJ for Koch
15. Guerrier for Marte
16. Wells, Lowe, Fogg for Ritchie
17. Osuna to NY for El Duque
18. El Duque, Leifer and Biddle for Colon
19. Chad Bradford for Olivo
20. That trade with the Dodgers when he got the last names mixed up.
21. Did he trade with Texas to acquire Royce Clayton?
22. -31?????

Tragg
07-02-2004, 10:48 AM
But he makes up for it by getting some very solid mid to low level deals. Players like Uribe, Harris, Timo.

As for impact players, I'd argue Olivo was one. Cotts could be one. And of course, Garcia. David Wells would count, as would Colon.

One problem with looking at his trades and trying to ID "impact players" is the for many of the years KW's been GM, the team hasn't been in position where a true impact trade would vault them to/near the top. He's also not been in position to take on salary until this year.

Hard to have a trade for an impact guy if you're not trying to (i.e. there's no point since your'e not in the race), or you can't add his salary.Overall, I have no problem with him- and he's certainly better than his predecessor.
But some of the "little players" he's dealt away have done some things (not impact- but Timo, uribe and Harris aren't impact either). Ginter's had a decent year; Francisco had a nice year in the pen for the Rangers (we could use him)- now we got Francisco for Howry so that washes I guess. Olivo fine, but Bradford is still an effective set-up man.

Still, I must say that he rarely gets the best of it- on paper, in any pressure trade, he gives up more than he gets; and when the seller he really got very little.

Brian26
07-02-2004, 10:49 AM
As has already been pointed out, the writer was from the Minneapolis paper.

The amazing thing that struck me was that they stated Kenny has made 31 trades since he took over! WOW!

Do we even attempt to start listing them?

I'll give it a start....anyone who can help w/ a media guide, feel free to post.

1. Garcia for Olivo, Reed, Morse.
2. Koch to Florida
3. Glover for Schoenweis
4. Uribe for Miles
5. Lofton to SF for propects
6. Durham to Oakland for prospects
7. Howry to Boston for prospects
8. Sandy to Colorado for prospects
9. Singleton for Willie Harris
10. Sirotka for Wells
11. Almonte for Robbie Alomar
12. Prospects for Carl Everett
13. Hummel for Scott Sullivan
14. Foulke, MJ for Koch
15. Guerrier for Marte
16. Wells, Lowe, Fogg for Ritchie
17. Osuna to NY for El Duque
18. El Duque, Leifer and Biddle for Colon
19. Chad Bradford for Olivo
20. That trade with the Dodgers when he got the last names mixed up.
21. Did he trade with Texas to acquire Royce Clayton?
22. -31?????

Just remembered..

22. Ginter for Timo.

delben91
07-02-2004, 10:50 AM
22. -31?????

22. Ginter for Timo Perez

Brian26
07-02-2004, 10:51 AM
22. Ginter for Timo Perez

23. Someone to the Marlins for Julio Ramirez.

Tragg
07-02-2004, 10:56 AM
Just remembered..

22. Ginter for Timo.Scott Eyre for Glover (Eyre became an effective relief pitcher for the Giants)

Gary Glover for Scho

Baldwin to dodgers for prospects (I think that was the trade where he screwed up the guys name).

Prospect for Alan Embre

He did trade a couple of prospects for Clayton

delben91
07-02-2004, 10:56 AM
He got Gary Glover and Julio Ramirez in deals it seems...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/2001/spring_training/news/2001/02/13/whitesox_preview/

Flight #24
07-02-2004, 10:57 AM
1. Garcia for Olivo, Reed, Morse. -- Good
2. Koch to Florida -- Great!
3. Glover for Schoenweis -- Good
4. Uribe for Miles -- Good
5. Lofton to SF for Felix Diaz -- Good
6. Durham to Oakland for Adkins -- Good
7. Howry to Boston for prospects -- Eh.
8. Sandy to Colorado for prospects -- Good
9. Singleton for Willie Harris -- Good
10. Sirotka for Wells -- Good (not KW's fault Wells got hurt)
11. Almonte for Robbie Alomar -- Good
12. Prospects for Carl Everett -- Wash
13. Hummel for Scott Sullivan -- Good
14. Foulke, MJ for Koch, Cotts -- Terrible
15. Guerrier for Marte -- Great
16. Wells, Lowe, Fogg for Ritchie -- Terrible
17. Osuna to NY for El Duque -- Great ( in conjunction with 18)
18. El Duque, Leifer and Biddle for Colon -- Great ( in conjunction with 17)
19. Chad Bradford for Olivo -- Good
20. That trade with the Dodgers when he got the last names mixed up. -- Eh.
21. Royce Clayton for Aaron Myette -- Bad or Eh.
22. ?? for Jimenez
23. Jimenez to Cinci -- Eh.
24. Prospects for Politte -- Eh.
25. Ginter for Timo -- Good or Eh.
26. Scott Eyre for ??? - Eh
27. Prospects for Alan Embree - bad

Net - 2 Bad, 2 terrible. 10 Good, 3 Great (counting Colon as 2).

(Eh = who cares?)

delben91
07-02-2004, 11:01 AM
26. player to be named to Florida for Amury Garcia (2001)
27. Scott Eyre to Blue Jays for Gary Glover
28. Minor Leaguers to Dodgers for Antonio Osuna
29. Derek Hasselhoff to Giants for Alan Embree
30. McKay Christensen to Dodgers for Wade Parrish
31. ???

Tragg
07-02-2004, 11:02 AM
1. Garcia for Olivo, Reed, Morse. -- Good
2. Koch to Florida -- Great!
3. Glover for Schoenweis -- Good
4. Uribe for Miles -- Good
5. Lofton to SF for Felix Diaz -- Good
6. Durham to Oakland for Adkins -- Good
7. Howry to Boston for prospects -- Eh.
8. Sandy to Colorado for prospects -- Good
9. Singleton for Willie Harris -- Good
10. Sirotka for Wells -- Good (not KW's fault Wells got hurt)
11. Almonte for Robbie Alomar -- Good
12. Prospects for Carl Everett -- Wash
13. Hummel for Scott Sullivan -- Good
14. Foulke, MJ for Koch, Cotts -- Terrible
15. Guerrier for Marte -- Great
16. Wells, Lowe, Fogg for Ritchie -- Terrible
17. Osuna to NY for El Duque -- Great ( in conjunction with 18)
18. El Duque, Leifer and Biddle for Colon -- Great ( in conjunction with 17)
19. Chad Bradford for Olivo -- Good
20. That trade with the Dodgers when he got the last names mixed up. -- Eh.
21. Royce Clayton for Aaron Myette -- Bad or Eh.
22. ?? for Jimenez
23. Jimenez to Cinci -- Eh.
24. Prospects for Politte -- Eh.
25. Ginter for Timo -- Good or Eh.
26. Scott Eyre for ??? - Eh
27. Prospects for Alan Embree - bad

Net - 2 Bad, 2 terrible. 10 Good, 3 Great (counting Colon as 2).

(Eh = who cares?)6. was not good- he got waay too little in that deal.

12. was not good- one of the THREE prospects we gave up is already helping the Rangers.

11. I don't see what good came out of it.

13. Eyre ultimately for Scho- wash at this time.

14. I'd call it bad, not terrible- (Wasn't mark Johnston part of that deal also? And valentine)Foulke was going to be gone the next year. Koch was signed for an extra year. It was a reasonable try by KW to end up with a reliever. I remember a lot of the angst was in the switch of the pitchers -"if Billy Beane doesn't like Cotts, then no way can he be good". No one knew that Koch would be a NEGATIVE player. That appears to have been the trade's salvation.

delben91
07-02-2004, 11:02 AM
31. Herb Perry to Rangers for player to be named

voodoochile
07-02-2004, 11:02 AM
I forgot you can't disagree with Kenny at all or else you are troll. The Marte trade is the only trade Kenny got impact player. In 36 trades that is a poor percentage.
Okay, define "impact player" before I respond, so I won't get into another stupid argument about the meaning of words...

Just to be clear, I define an impact player as one who increases the teams odds of winning regular season and post season games.

By my count that includes:

Everett
Marte
Schoeneweiss
Colon
Timo Perez
Robbie Alomar
Uribe
Harris

I am sure I am missing some of them...

fuzzy_patters
07-02-2004, 11:06 AM
As has already been pointed out, the writer was from the Minneapolis paper.

The amazing thing that struck me was that they stated Kenny has made 31 trades since he took over! WOW!

Do we even attempt to start listing them?

I'll give it a start....anyone who can help w/ a media guide, feel free to post.

1. Garcia for Olivo, Reed, Morse.
2. Koch to Florida
3. Glover for Schoenweis
4. Uribe for Miles
5. Lofton to SF for propects
6. Durham to Oakland for prospects
7. Howry to Boston for prospects
8. Sandy to Colorado for prospects
9. Singleton for Willie Harris
10. Sirotka for Wells
11. Almonte for Robbie Alomar
12. Prospects for Carl Everett
13. Hummel for Scott Sullivan
14. Foulke, MJ for Koch
15. Guerrier for Marte
16. Wells, Lowe, Fogg for Ritchie
17. Osuna to NY for El Duque
18. El Duque, Leifer and Biddle for Colon
19. Chad Bradford for Olivo
20. That trade with the Dodgers when he got the last names mixed up.
21. Did he trade with Texas to acquire Royce Clayton?
22. -31?????
I believe Aaron Myette was in the Clayton trade. Also didn't he trade Kevin Bierne somewhere?

Dadawg_77
07-02-2004, 11:08 AM
Okay, define "impact player" before I respond, so I won't get into another stupid argument about the meaning of words...

Just to be clear, I define an impact player as one who increases the teams odds of winning regular season and post season games.

By my count that includes:

Everett
Marte
Schoeneweiss
Colon
Timo Perez
Robbie Alomar
Uribe
Harris

I am sure I am missing some of them...
WOW, if you are including Alomar, Perez, Harris as impact players, we are planets apart in definitions.

voodoochile
07-02-2004, 11:11 AM
WOW, if you are including Alomar, Perez, Harris as impact players, we are planets apart in definitions.
On the surface, no.

But, Perez has definitely been an impact player this year especially over the last month with Maggs out.

Harris too.

No, they aren't all stars, but they aren't chopped liver either and all of them made solid contributions to the Sox team when they played here.

Still, only Marte is definitely the opposite side of the coin, extreme to the opposite end of the spectrum.

samram
07-02-2004, 11:14 AM
On the surface, no.

But, Perez has definitely been an impact player this year especially over the last month with Maggs out.

Harris too.

No, they aren't all stars, but they aren't chopped liver either and all of them made solid contributions to the Sox team when they played here.

Still, only Marte is definitely the opposite side of the coin, extreme to the opposite end of the spectrum.
Not to mention that Timo wasn't brought in to hit 20 HRs and drive in 70 runs. He was brought in as a fourth outfielder, a role he has filled very well.

Randar68
07-02-2004, 11:14 AM
I forgot you can't disagree with Kenny at all or else you are troll. The Marte trade is the only trade Kenny got impact player. In 36 trades that is a poor percentage.
You pointing to that article as truth is like Rush Limbaugh citing a Fox News Report.

samram
07-02-2004, 11:14 AM
I believe Aaron Myette was in the Clayton trade. Also didn't he trade Kevin Bierne somewhere?
I think Beirne was part of the Sirotka-Wells trade.

Flight #24
07-02-2004, 11:16 AM
6. was not good- he got waay too little in that deal.

12. was not good- one of the THREE prospects we gave up is already helping the Rangers.

11. I don't see what good came out of it.

13. Eyre ultimately for Scho- wash at this time.

14. I'd call it bad, not terrible- (Wasn't mark Johnston part of that deal also? And valentine)Foulke was going to be gone the next year. Koch was signed for an extra year. It was a reasonable try by KW to end up with a reliever. I remember a lot of the angst was in the switch of the pitchers -"if Billy Beane doesn't like Cotts, then no way can he be good". No one knew that Koch would be a NEGATIVE player. That appears to have been the trade's salvation.6. You're right, brain fart on the Durham deal. - obviously bad.
12. Everett was a solid player for us last year, and sans Manuel, woud likely have helped get us to the playoffs. We gave up 3 relatively low level guys for that instead of 1 better prospect. That seems OK to me.
11. Robbie contributed a lot more than Edwin Almonte ever will, that's a net plus in my book. Not a huge one, but still a plus.
13. Shoney's been pretty solid this year, not to mention that we're rating trades individually, so while Ginter for Eyre may have been bad, Shoney for Ginter was good.
14. I actually agree with you, but Koch was so bad, and Cotts hasn't provided the value yet to outweigh that. I feel pretty confident that this time next year we'll be looking at this trade differently and Cotts will be the reason why.

STill - net positive in my book. Not amazing, but pretty solid. Combine that with solid drafting and working within the revenue constraints of the franchise, and I stand by my sentiment that KW's an above average GM.

Dadawg_77
07-02-2004, 11:22 AM
You pointing to that article as truth is like Rush Limbaugh citing a Fox News Report.
LOL, that is good.

Dadawg_77
07-02-2004, 11:24 AM
On the surface, no.

But, Perez has definitely been an impact player this year especially over the last month with Maggs out.

Harris too.

No, they aren't all stars, but they aren't chopped liver either and all of them made solid contributions to the Sox team when they played here.

Still, only Marte is definitely the opposite side of the coin, extreme to the opposite end of the spectrum.AS for you first question, my definition is based say win shares. For Starting pitchers and hitters, you need above 20. Relievers would probally be above 10.

For mis season trades, pro-rate over a 162 game season

HebrewHammer
07-02-2004, 11:36 AM
I forgot you can't disagree with Kenny at all or else you are troll. The Marte trade is the only trade Kenny got impact player. In 36 trades that is a poor percentage.Juan Uribe? Freddy Garcia? Bartolo Colon? Robbie Alomar? Carl Everett?

voodoochile
07-02-2004, 11:44 AM
AS for you first question, my definition is based say win shares. For Starting pitchers and hitters, you need above 20. Relievers would probally be above 10.

For mis season trades, pro-rate over a 162 game season
And for those of us who fail to understand winshares (or even care to) how many players in the Majors had 20 win shares last year? How many relievers had 10?

I think Everett had a bunch for the Sox last year, what was his prorated total?

doctor30th
07-02-2004, 11:49 AM
here's a small portion of the transactions from the 2000 off season to the begining of 2002

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2001_trans.shtml

Flight #24
07-02-2004, 11:54 AM
And for those of us who fail to understand winshares (or even care to) how many players in the Majors had 20 win shares last year? How many relievers had 10?

I think Everett had a bunch for the Sox last year, what was his prorated total?Per this site
AL: http://www.baseballgraphs.com/winshares/alwinshares.html
NL: http://www.baseballgraphs.com/winshares/nlwinshares.html

Seems to indicate 32 AL players with WS>=20 and 44 NL. That includes pitchers and hitters....and our very own (in 2003), Carl Everett.

voodoochile
07-02-2004, 12:01 PM
Per this site
AL: http://www.baseballgraphs.com/winshares/alwinshares.html
NL: http://www.baseballgraphs.com/winshares/nlwinshares.html

Seems to indicate 32 AL players with WS>=20 and 44 NL. That includes pitchers and hitters....and our very own (in 2003), Carl Everett.
So there are about 2 per team and the Sox have two on their team and KW acquired a third (Everett) at least once in the past another guy with 17 (Colon) another guy with 14.5 last year (Wells) and also signed Tom Gordon (who qualifies under the reliever forumula).

Now I get it, KW truly does blow...:rolleyes:

Flight #24
07-02-2004, 12:03 PM
So there are about 2 per team and the Sox have two on their team and KW acquired a third (Everett) at least once in the past another guy with 17 (Colon) another guy with 14.5 last year (Wells) and also signed Tom Gordon (who qualifies under the reliever forumula).

Now I get it, KW truly does blow...:rolleyes:
One note is that the list is really (as expected), populated with pretty much stud players. Some samples of low 20s WS guys: Sosa, Vazquez, Prior, Edmonds, Kent, Kendall, Foulke, Pedro.

The only ones I can recall being traded in the past few years are: Arod, Soriano, Everett, Winn, Foulke, Beltran, Hidalgo, S. Green, K. Brown, Pierszynski. These guys tend to stick with their team or move as FAs.

Subtracting the Yankee moves (which are really not comparable to other teams since they tend to take on so much salary), you have 7 players that I can recall being traded in the past few years. We got one of them.

Tragg
07-02-2004, 01:43 PM
STill - net positive in my book. Not amazing, but pretty solid. Combine that with solid drafting and working within the revenue constraints of the franchise, and I stand by my sentiment that KW's an above average GM. I agree

Dadawg_77
07-02-2004, 02:20 PM
So there are about 2 per team and the Sox have two on their team and KW acquired a third (Everett) at least once in the past another guy with 17 (Colon) another guy with 14.5 last year (Wells) and also signed Tom Gordon (who qualifies under the reliever forumula).

Now I get it, KW truly does blow...:rolleyes:
Sox had three, Frank, Mags, E Lo before Kenny got Carl. Now if a team has four players whose in the top 10% of the players in the game and you don't win the weakest division in baseball, one has to ask what made up the rest of your roster. When you include relievers like Gordond and Marte it makes it look even worse.

Dadawg_77
07-02-2004, 02:24 PM
Juan Uribe? Freddy Garcia? Bartolo Colon? Robbie Alomar? Carl Everett?
Uribe is smoke and mirrors. I think his performance in June is closer to his level then his performance in April.

Alomar is Willie Mays on the Mets, just Alomar wasn't as good and Mays wasn't as bad.

Everett was a good pick up offensively but he couldn't play center. Instead of using Everett in the corners or at DH, Kenny and Jerry managed to put him in his worst postion in the field.

The book still remains to be written on Garcia, while I don't think it will be War and Peace but rather something form the pen of Tom Clancy.

Colon was good last year, just not great. Still a great pickup on the Expos salary dump.

Flight #24
07-02-2004, 02:57 PM
Sox had three, Frank, Mags, E Lo before Kenny got Carl. Now if a team has four players whose in the top 10% of the players in the game and you don't win the weakest division in baseball, one has to ask what made up the rest of your roster. When you include relievers like Gordond and Marte it makes it look even worse.
Or what made up your coaching staff.


:jerry
"All I know is...I came ready to play!"


:ozzie
"Which is why now I make out the f**in lineup!"