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View Full Version : Guillen Rips Schoeneweis a New A-Hole


mendozaln
07-01-2004, 03:48 PM
Article in the Southtown about Schoe's reaction if he were moved to the bullpen: http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/011sd2.htm

And Guillen's reaction: http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20040701&content_id=785678&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp

Guillen's really letting him have it. He's got a right, it's just disappointing. Schoe looked really good at the beginning of the season, and a lefty starter is useful. I'm hoping for some fence-mending.

SEALgep
07-01-2004, 03:53 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20040701&content_id=785678&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp

Not a good time for a complainer, whether that's how you feel or not. Team attitude is a must, which I would expect from a player who was part of a WS winner.

Kadafi311
07-01-2004, 03:54 PM
Excerpt:

"Schoeney is always upset, he always has something to [complain] about," Guillen said emphatically. "I know what Coop had to say and why he said it. He's going to talk about the team first. I don't say [Schoeneweis] is selfish, but it sounds like that.

"But if you want to make a comment that if you're not a starting pitcher you want to be out of here, we'll find a way to get him out of here," Guillen added. "That's fine with me. We don't need him. There are a lot of pitchers -- good and bad -- who can fill that hole. We'll see what happens."
Link (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20040701&content_id=785678&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp)

fquaye149
07-01-2004, 03:54 PM
schoenweis' right that they shouldn't put him in the pen if it's close between him and the other two, b/c we don't need another lefty arm there.

BUT HE SHOULD KEEP HIS F'N TRAP SHUT ABOUT IT. ***!

We don't need this after a sweep in Minnesota. Complainers!:angry::angry::angry:

DaveIsHere
07-01-2004, 03:56 PM
Schoney better not ef up what this team has going on, you do what your boss tells you not what you want to do, if he causes any uneeded distractions because of his selfishness I will be really pissed!!:angry:

mmmmmbeeer
07-01-2004, 03:58 PM
Ozzie layeth the smacketh downeth. Very nice. I love the part about being the business of player development vs. winning, seems to ring true.

The_Floridian
07-01-2004, 04:01 PM
That's a shame. I was getting fond of old Schoe. Hope he's smart enough to come in and get humble REAL quick. Otherwise, he might have to get the old Rick White Bigmouth Heave-Ho.

I know it must be sad to consider moving back to the pen after waiting so long to start, but sheesh. Not good Schoe...I expect some major olive branches when you roll back into town.

Flight #24
07-01-2004, 04:02 PM
:KW


"Anyone interested in Scott Schoenweis should give me a call"

thecell
07-01-2004, 04:06 PM
**** him...he gone!!

daveeym
07-01-2004, 04:06 PM
Oh wow ozzie just didn't tell him to shut it but basically called him a bitch. Almost sounds personal. I thinks Schoe has pitched his last pitch in a sox uniform.

jackbrohamer
07-01-2004, 04:07 PM
IIRC he complained all the time about relieving when he was in Anaheim, on team that won the World Series.

It's off-topic, but this was in the same mlb.com article and it is pretty interesting:

"During the past three years, the White Sox's best memories of visiting Minneapolis have come from viewing the city in the background as their plane leaves town. They were 2-7 in the Metrodome during the 2001 season, 3-7 in 2002 and 2-7 in 2003.
"But there's a different feeling this year when the White Sox come to town. With Wednesday's 9-6 victory, the South Siders have a 5-1 record in the Metrodome in 2004. It's their most victories in Minneapolis since posting a 4-2 record in 2000, when the White Sox won the Central Division."

Hokiesox
07-01-2004, 04:07 PM
Get rid of Schoney. Couldn't we get a decent pen guy for him?

Flight #24
07-01-2004, 04:10 PM
Get rid of Schoney. Couldn't we get a decent pen guy for him?3-way trade:
Pirates send Jason Kendall, Brian meadows, and $10mil to the Sox, Kris Benson to the Yankees and receive Richard Nanita and Dioner Navarro.

Yanks send Navarro to the Pirates and $10mil to the Sox, and receive Benson & Schoeny

Sox Send Schoeny to the Yanks and Nanita to the Pirates, receive Kendall, Meadows, + $20mil (dropping his salary to $5mil/yr)

munchman33
07-01-2004, 04:13 PM
Perhaps it is time to reinstate Shoe's Foes.

Win1ForMe
07-01-2004, 04:14 PM
Get rid of Schoney. Couldn't we get a decent pen guy for him?
I wouldn't go that far just yet. Rauch and/or Diaz still have to prove themselves for more than one start. Losing Schoney would mean we're back to square one as far as the never ending search for a fifth starter. Still, I agree completely with Ozzie on this one.

mcfish
07-01-2004, 04:16 PM
what does this mean? Is Darensbourg released or is he being sent to a minor league club after clearing wavers?

Personnel move: The White Sox requested waivers on left-handed pitcher Vic Darensbourg for the purpose of granting his unconditional release. Darensbourg, 33, was designated for assignment by the club prior to Tuesday's game.

Flight #24
07-01-2004, 04:17 PM
what does this mean? Is Darensbourg released or is he being sent to a minor league club after clearing wavers?
IIRC - it means that any team can claim him (at his current contract). If he clears waivers, the Sox will release him and he'll become a free agent.

Uncle_Patrick
07-01-2004, 04:18 PM
Perhaps it is time to reinstate Shoe's Foes.
We may not have to. If he's gonna be a bitch like this, I can't see him sticking around very long. I understand his frustration, but keep it private! He's lucky he got a chance to start. Ozzie's 100% right: Its up to Schoenweiss to prove he belongs in the starting rotation.

patbooyah
07-01-2004, 04:18 PM
i heard that ozzie wears a tshirt with the "shoe's foes" logo on it under his uniform.


hey scott- today i had to go pick up ribs for 13 writers. i didn't get any! i didn't want to do it, but i didn't call up the los angeles times and whine about it.

love,
pat

daveeym
07-01-2004, 04:19 PM
I wouldn't go that far just yet. Rauch and/or Diaz still have to prove themselves for more than one start. Losing Schoney would mean we're back to square one as far as the never ending search for a fifth starter. Still, I agree completely with Ozzie on this one. I would go that far, no way ozzie makes those comments unless Schoe already had one foot out the door. He's being shopped no doubt.

markp8867
07-01-2004, 04:20 PM
**** him...he gone!!
Well put! I say trade Scott and some dufus prospects to Arizona for the Big Unit. The D-Backs would be happy to drop his salary and Reinsdorf has already said he is willing to spend the money to make this the best team possible. It's time to put your money where your mouth is Jerry and do it!

By the way, great sweep today against the Twins! Let's keep that momentum going in our direction. GO SOX GO!!!

munchman33
07-01-2004, 04:27 PM
Reinsdorf has already said he is willing to spend the money to make this the best team possible. It's time to put your money where your mouth is Jerry and do it!
:reinsy
"I never said that! I'll only add if it fits our budget. Kenny, you got that star free agent's phone number?"

:KW
"Right here boss."

:jaime
"I knew you'd coming crawling back."

SOXSINCE'70
07-01-2004, 04:28 PM
Got to side with Ozzie on this one.I give Schoeneweis 1 or 2 starts after he comes off the DL.If he's not getting the job done,down to the 'pen or trade his :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: butt outta here.

jordan23ventura
07-01-2004, 04:30 PM
Well put! I say trade Scott and some dufus prospects to Arizona for the Big Unit. The D-Backs would be happy to drop his salary and Reinsdorf has already said he is willing to spend the money to make this the best team possible. It's time to put your money where your mouth is Jerry and do it!

By the way, great sweep today against the Twins! Let's keep that momentum going in our direction. GO SOX GO!!!

En el mundo loco, los white Sox compran Randy Johnson y Jason Kendall y Braden Looper. Los ganadores del Division Central, ALCS, y Series del Mundo.

Tragg
07-01-2004, 04:33 PM
I wouldn't go that far just yet. Rauch and/or Diaz still have to prove themselves for more than one start. Losing Schoney would mean we're back to square one as far as the never ending search for a fifth starter. Still, I agree completely with Ozzie on this one.
Particularly since there was a lot of "get rid of Rauch" commentary a couple of months ago for unbecoming conduct.

thecell
07-01-2004, 04:35 PM
En el mundo loco, los white Sox compran Randy Johnson y Jason Kendall y Braden Looper. Los ganadores del Division Central, ALCS, y Series del Mundo.
That would be pretty crazy.

Philo-Sox-er
07-01-2004, 04:41 PM
Trade him. Make him part of the negotiations on bringing in another pitcher and a catcher.

Mohoney
07-01-2004, 04:44 PM
We may not have to. If he's gonna be a bitch like this, I can't see him sticking around very long. I understand his frustration, but keep it private! He's lucky he got a chance to start. Ozzie's 100% right: Its up to Schoenweiss to prove he belongs in the starting rotation.

Ozzie may be right, but WHY does he have so much faith in Jon Garland and so little in Schoenweis? Is it Schoenweis' lower ERA that's bothering Ozzie so much? What in God's name has Garland done to prove that he's a better starter this year than Schoenweis? Besides, doesn't Garland have an attitude problem, too?

If you're going to rip one guy, you need to rip both.

If not for Paulie and Jose throwing some serious leather and getting some extra outs when we needed them most, we would have lost today.

If I had to choose between Schoenweis and Garland on who to demote to the bullpen or trade for Kendall, I choose Garland.

Flight #24
07-01-2004, 04:49 PM
Ozzie may be right, but WHY does he have so much faith in Jon Garland and so little in Schoenweis? Is it Schoenweis' lower ERA that's bothering Ozzie so much? What in God's name has Garland done to prove that he's a better starter this year than Schoenweis? Besides, doesn't Garland have an attitude problem, too?

If you're going to rip one guy, you need to rip both.

If not for Paulie and Jose throwing some serious leather and getting some extra outs when we needed them most, we would have lost today.

If I had to choose between Schoenweis and Garland on who to demote to the bullpen or trade for Kendall, I choose Garland.
Unless I've missed something - has Garland said or done anything that could be deemed negative towards the team? IMO - Ozzie's commentary is more that Shoeney's acomplainer and isn't willing to take on for the team if that's what's best. Garland isn't getting ripped because he's apparently not a complainer.

RedPinStripes
07-01-2004, 04:50 PM
Alright Ozzie! Let him have it. **** shony! He wants to be a little bitch about it, let him be a starter on the Expos.

jordan23ventura
07-01-2004, 04:51 PM
Ozzie may be right, but WHY does he have so much faith in Jon Garland and so little in Schoenweis? Is it Schoenweis' lower ERA that's bothering Ozzie so much? What in God's name has Garland done to prove that he's a better starter this year than Schoenweis? Besides, doesn't Garland have an attitude problem, too?

If you're going to rip one guy, you need to rip both.

If I had to choose between Schoenweis and Garland on who to demote to the bullpen or trade for Kendall, I choose Garland.
That's retarded. Garland has been devloping... maybe not as fast as everyone would like, but he's developing. He has a much higher updside than Schoney, still young, and last time I checked this whole thing was about MAYBE, not definately but MAYBE, subbing in Diaz/Rauch for Schoney. If you take Garland out you are just screwing yourself.

"If not for Paulie and Jose throwing some serious leather and getting some extra outs when we needed them most, we would have lost today."

Above average defense is mandatory for any team that hopes to get past the first round in the playoffs. That IS what we are trying to accomplish, right?

34 Inch Stick
07-01-2004, 04:52 PM
You can understand SS sensitivity on the matter because of it happening to him in the past. He is also correct in that he has clearly pitched better than Diaz/Rauch/Cotts/Munoz/Wright throughout the year. In addition the Sox should not have brought up this subject while the guy is on the DL. Ultimately results are what will decide this move (which is what Ozzie said along with a lot of unecessary stuff).

It was handled poorly all around. In the end even if Diaz is lights out, SS should be in that starting rotation when he comes off the DL.

By the way, Diaz performance against the Cubs last week was acceptable but hardly something to base changes on.

Flight #24
07-01-2004, 04:57 PM
You can understand SS sensitivity on the matter because of it happening to him in the past. He is also correct in that he has clearly pitched better than Diaz/Rauch/Cotts/Munoz/Wright throughout the year. In addition the Sox should not have brought up this subject while the guy is on the DL. Ultimately results are what will decide this move (which is what Ozzie said along with a lot of unecessary stuff).

It was handled poorly all around. In the end even if Diaz is lights out, SS should be in that starting rotation when he comes off the DL.

By the way, Diaz performance against the Cubs last week was acceptable but hardly something to base changes on.
IMO an equal consideration to who would bemore effective as a starter is who would be a more effective reliever. I think Shoney's experience in the 'pen makes him the more attractive candidate as a reliever (despite being our 3d lefty). If things are close based on Shoney's last few starts being weaker and if Rauch/Diaz's net start or 2 are similar to their last ones, I'd put Shoney in the pen for that reason.

Then if Rauch/Diaz flop later, you can always have him start for a while again. He may not like the yoyo, but that's part of being on a team - filling in where needed. Kind of like Tim Wakefield on the BoSox.

Mohoney
07-01-2004, 04:57 PM
Unless I've missed something - has Garland said or done anything that could be deemed negative towards the team? IMO - Ozzie's commentary is more that Shoeney's acomplainer and isn't willing to take on for the team if that's what's best. Garland isn't getting ripped because he's apparently not a complainer.

I remember several posters on these boards griping about Garland's attitude, lack of urgency and intensity, etc...

All I'm saying is that BOTH guys have obvious flaws, and Schoenweis' ERA is better as of now than Garland's.

Give both guys an ultimatum: pitch your way in, or pitch your way out.

Maybe this whole incident will light a fire under Schoney's ass, the same way Rauch's incident lit a fire under his. If Schoenweis goes 6+ innings and gives up 2 or 3 runs, I'm willing to bet that all is forgiven.

markp8867
07-01-2004, 04:58 PM
:reinsy
"I never said that! I'll only add if it fits our budget. Kenny, you got that star free agent's phone number?"
LOL! This is what was written in one of the papers:



"Guillen's feel-good influence in the clubhouse extends to the executive offices, where general manager Ken Williams is getting a thumbs-up from Reinsdorf to make whatever deals he and the team believe can make the contending Sox not only a playoff team but a World Series contender."


Adding the Big Unit, although ridiculous and delusional on my part for even thinking it, would give the Sox 4 #1 starters and Garland, who pitched a masterpiece today, would be #5. Obviously it would be a rent-a-player scenario but I wouldn't mind renting the Big Unit for a few months!

SEALgep
07-01-2004, 05:01 PM
You can understand SS sensitivity on the matter because of it happening to him in the past. He is also correct in that he has clearly pitched better than Diaz/Rauch/Cotts/Munoz/Wright throughout the year. In addition the Sox should not have brought up this subject while the guy is on the DL. Ultimately results are what will decide this move (which is what Ozzie said along with a lot of unecessary stuff).

It was handled poorly all around. In the end even if Diaz is lights out, SS should be in that starting rotation when he comes off the DL.

By the way, Diaz performance against the Cubs last week was acceptable but hardly something to base changes on.What was unneccesary was SS giving us a ultimatum before anything had even been decided. You can say what Ozzie said was unneccessary, but I would disagree. This has obviously been foreseen by what Ozzie said. If SS is becoming a vocal problem, there is an easy solution. We didn't necessarily say Diaz is going to take SS spot, but if we make an another addition for a starter, guess what, SS becomes a reliever. He has a problem with it, I heard the Yanks are looking for pitching, and the fact that he is a cheap lefty, the Yanks would probably take a gamble on him until a better solution came along. Either way, if he wants out, we can oblige. Hopefully he has a change of heart and none of this is necessary.

Flight #24
07-01-2004, 05:05 PM
I remember several posters on these boards griping about Garland's attitude, lack of urgency and intensity, etc...

All I'm saying is that BOTH guys have obvious flaws, and Schoenweis' ERA is better as of now than Garland's.

Give both guys an ultimatum: pitch your way in, or pitch your way out.

Maybe this whole incident will light a fire under Schoney's ass, the same way Rauch's incident lit a fire under his. If Schoenweis goes 6+ innings and gives up 2 or 3 runs, I'm willing to bet that all is forgiven.
You missed the point. Ozzie's not really complaining about Shoney's performance on the field (which is what you're pointing to with Garland). He's discussing complaining off the field and the fact that when presented with a move to the pen as an option, not a decision - he complained and basically gave the team an ultimatum.

I cannot recall anything siilar being said about Garland. People have questioned his competitiveness, aggressiveness, mental toughness, etc. But not his attitude relative to the team or his being a whiner/complainer.

Ozzie's saying: Do what's best for the team or get out. You haven't exactly dominated recently as a starter, so it's an option worth discussing to make you back into a reliever. If you won't do that even though it might be best for the team - get out.

There's really no comparison to Garland from an attitude perspective, which is what this is all about.

Mohoney
07-01-2004, 05:07 PM
That's retarded. Garland has been devloping... maybe not as fast as everyone would like, but he's developing. He has a much higher updside than Schoney, still young, and last time I checked this whole thing was about MAYBE, not definately but MAYBE, subbing in Diaz/Rauch for Schoney. If you take Garland out you are just screwing yourself.

"If not for Paulie and Jose throwing some serious leather and getting some extra outs when we needed them most, we would have lost today."

Above average defense is mandatory for any team that hopes to get past the first round in the playoffs. That IS what we are trying to accomplish, right?

Garland was INCHES away from self-destruction on more than one occasion today, and Paulie TOTALLY bailed him out. That was not above-average, that was spectacular.

Garland has progressed? He's already had close to 700 IP at the big league level, and is always right around .500 with an ERA in the mid 4s when the season ends. I don't call that slow progression, I call that NO progression.

If Garland gets me a heavy discount on Kendall, I do it in a heartbeat. 2004 is the last chance with this core. I'm not entirely worried about losing a perennial .500, 4.50+ ERA pitcher for our rebuilding effort in '05-'08.

Save this post. When Garland EVER posts a 17-20 win, sub 4 ERA season, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. Just don't hold your breath.

Mohoney
07-01-2004, 05:12 PM
You missed the point. Ozzie's not really complaining about Shoney's performance on the field (which is what you're pointing to with Garland). He's discussing complaining off the field and the fact that when presented with a move to the pen as an option, not a decision - he complained and basically gave the team an ultimatum.

I cannot recall anything siilar being said about Garland. People have questioned his competitiveness, aggressiveness, mental toughness, etc. But not his attitude relative to the team or his being a whiner/complainer.

Ozzie's saying: Do what's best for the team or get out. You haven't exactly dominated recently as a starter, so it's an option worth discussing to make you back into a reliever. If you won't do that even though it might be best for the team - get out.

There's really no comparison to Garland from an attitude perspective, which is what this is all about.

Ok. Valid point. But let's say that Ozzie tells Garland that he might be headed to the bullpen. I'll bet Garland raises a stink, too.

Flight #24
07-01-2004, 05:20 PM
Ok. Valid point. But let's say that Ozzie tells Garland that he might be headed to the bullpen. I'll bet Garland raises a stink, too.
Impossible to say for sure, but I'd bet not. Jon's supposedly pretty calm & low key. I think even if he was upset, he'd take it up with Ozzie/Coop directly, not the media.

Kadafi311
07-01-2004, 05:21 PM
i heard that ozzie wears a tshirt with the "shoe's foes" logo on it under his uniform.


hey scott- today i had to go pick up ribs for 13 writers. i didn't get any! i didn't want to do it, but i didn't call up the los angeles times and whine about it.

love,
pat
mmmmmmmmm ribs

jabrch
07-01-2004, 05:26 PM
3-way trade:
Pirates send Jason Kendall, Brian meadows, and $10mil to the Sox, Kris Benson to the Yankees and receive Richard Nanita and Dioner Navarro.

Yanks send Navarro to the Pirates and $10mil to the Sox, and receive Benson & Schoeny

Sox Send Schoeny to the Yanks and Nanita to the Pirates, receive Kendall, Meadows, + $20mil (dropping his salary to $5mil/yr)
Where do I sign?

Now why exactly would the yankees give up 10$mm and their best prospect for Schoenweis and Benson?

Mohoney
07-01-2004, 05:28 PM
Impossible to say for sure, but I'd bet not. Jon's supposedly pretty calm & low key. I think even if he was upset, he'd take it up with Ozzie/Coop directly, not the media.

That's probably the real sin on Schoenweis' part. The media has no place in this type of situation.

Maybe this will all turn out for the best, with Schoenweis coming back with solid performances.

34 Inch Stick
07-01-2004, 05:35 PM
i heard that ozzie wears a tshirt with the "shoe's foes" logo on it under his uniform.


hey scott- today i had to go pick up ribs for 13 writers. i didn't get any! i didn't want to do it, but i didn't call up the los angeles times and whine about it.

love,
pat
That is because you were hired as the piss boy. It would be expected by both you and your employer that you do the job of the piss boy. If you cannot perform the task of piss boy they would promote the jizz moper and give you his position.

SS was hired, by KW's own admission, to be a starter. He has met the employers expectations as a starter. Therefore he has a reasonable expectation to continue in that position.

Flight #24
07-01-2004, 05:37 PM
Where do I sign?

Now why exactly would the yankees give up 10$mm and their best prospect for Schoenweis and Benson?

Because it's my deep pink dream, dammit! Or maybe we can get Big Stein excited about the attraction of the NY fan base to Kris (and Anna) Benson and their "hobbies"

fquaye149
07-01-2004, 05:39 PM
Where do I sign?

Now why exactly would the yankees give up 10$mm and their best prospect for Schoenweis and Benson?
he meant to type "jamie" navarro

doublem23
07-01-2004, 05:40 PM
You guys are insane. We're talking about sticking him in the rotation behind Felix Diaz. I'd ****ing bitch, too. Schoeneweis has given us nothing but his best all year and now they want to stick him in the 'pen behind a guy who after this weekend will, at best, have 2 good starts and 2 terrible ones.

Losing a job due to injury is lowballing Scott enough, but sticking him behind Diaz is just terrible. Ozzie and Cooper are way out of line here.

Mickster
07-01-2004, 05:42 PM
You guys are insane. We're talking about sticking him in the rotation behind Felix Diaz. I'd ****ing bitch, too. Schoeneweis has given us nothing but his best all year and now they want to stick him in the 'pen behind a guy who after this weekend will, at best, have 2 good starts and 2 terrible ones.

Losing a job due to injury is lowballing Scott enough, but sticking him behind Diaz is just terrible. Ozzie and Cooper are way out of line here.
Agreed. The job should be Scotts to lose. If he pitches like crap, then it is a different story. :(:

viagracat
07-01-2004, 05:42 PM
You can understand SS sensitivity on the matter because of it happening to him in the past. He is also correct in that he has clearly pitched better than Diaz/Rauch/Cotts/Munoz/Wright throughout the year. In addition the Sox should not have brought up this subject while the guy is on the DL. Ultimately results are what will decide this move (which is what Ozzie said along with a lot of unecessary stuff).

It was handled poorly all around. In the end even if Diaz is lights out, SS should be in that starting rotation when he comes off the DL.

By the way, Diaz performance against the Cubs last week was acceptable but hardly something to base changes on.
Yeah, but he picked a bad time to go off. The Sox just got Garcia, and Buehrle and Loiaza aren't going anywhere for awhile. Rauch may have learned a BIG lesson recently and I always thought he had potential. Granted, Diaz did a hell of a job vs the Cubs and it's awfully early, but he'll get another chance, which he should. Schoenweiss is nothing more than a #5 starter on most teams anyway. I don't think you test Ozzie this way. Expect a very emphatic "I was taken out of context" kind of comment from Shoeny tomorrow as well as a "let's go and get 'em" kind of comment as well, but it may be too late.

Flight #24
07-01-2004, 05:50 PM
You guys are insane. We're talking about sticking him in the rotation behind Felix Diaz. I'd ****ing bitch, too. Schoeneweis has given us nothing but his best all year and now they want to stick him in the 'pen behind a guy who after this weekend will, at best, have 2 good starts and 2 terrible ones.

Losing a job due to injury is lowballing Scott enough, but sticking him behind Diaz is just terrible. Ozzie and Cooper are way out of line here.
As I understood it, they didn't tell him he's out of the rotation, they told him that one option was sending him to the pen. He blew.

IMO, as a bottom of the rotation starter who's not been dominating of late, when the team's winnign and they say "if it makes the team better, would you go to the pen", you say "I'd rather start, but I'll do what we need to to win games".

I dont' care if he was brought here as a starter, or the ballboy. You do what's best for the team, and you sure as hell don't raise a stink in the media. Especially not when the team seems to be getting on a roll.

Mickster
07-01-2004, 05:54 PM
As I understood it, they didn't tell him he's out of the rotation, they told him that one option was sending him to the pen. He blew.

IMO, as a bottom of the rotation starter who's not been dominating of late, when the team's winnign and they say "if it makes the team better, would you go to the pen", you say "I'd rather start, but I'll do what we need to to win games".

I dont' care if he was brought here as a starter, or the ballboy. You do what's best for the team, and you sure as hell don't raise a stink in the media. Especially not when the team seems to be getting on a roll.He was our best pitcher the first 6 weeks into the season. If elbow problems caused him to throw like he has the past few starts then he at least deserves a few starts when he gets recalled from the DL to reclaim his spot. JMHO.

OurBitchinMinny
07-01-2004, 06:01 PM
I agree schoeny should not have gone public with this, but what the hell is ozzie doing? Why in the hell would he put diaz or rauch into the rotation over schoenweis? After two okay starts. Schoeny has kept the white sox in pretty much every game this year. He has pitched better than buerhle for most of the last month sans buerhles start tuesday. Schoeny should have kept quiet, but what the hell is ozzie doing stirring the pot. I just dont get it. If schoeny is the 5th starter, they are in pretty good shape. Diaz and rauch had two ok starts. They havent proved to be worthy of the #5 spot yet. I just dont get it. You win 5 in a row and ozzie starts shooting off his mouth and then schoeny does too. Why does something always have to be wrong with this team?

OurBitchinMinny
07-01-2004, 06:03 PM
I dont understand all the SS bashing. Dont forget for the first seven weeks he was the most consistent pitcher. And even recently when he has not been as good, he still has kept the team in games. He pitched better than buerhle, but buerhle got run support.

SEALgep
07-01-2004, 06:07 PM
You guys are insane. We're talking about sticking him in the rotation behind Felix Diaz. I'd ****ing bitch, too. Schoeneweis has given us nothing but his best all year and now they want to stick him in the 'pen behind a guy who after this weekend will, at best, have 2 good starts and 2 terrible ones.

Losing a job due to injury is lowballing Scott enough, but sticking him behind Diaz is just terrible. Ozzie and Cooper are way out of line here.Get back to table cleaning. :dtroll:

Flight #24
07-01-2004, 06:08 PM
IMO - the key points are this:

1) Ozzie didn't kick him to the pen, he mentioned it as an option. IMO as manager, Ozzie needs to look into all options. If Shoney's our best bet as a reliever due to his prior experience, it's worth considering. So all the talk about "why is he going to the pen" is premature. They're figuring out what to do and evaluating options (as they should). No decision has been made yet. If Diaz goes out and dominates the Cubs again, given Shoney's struggles of late, it's silly to just assume he'd be the better pitcher. Again - it's an option worth discussing.

2) Shoney basically said "I dont' care if you think that's best for the team, I'm not doing it. You can trade me instead". That's a TERRIBLE attitude. Especially for a team that seems to have pretty good chemistry and is getting on a roll.

3) Shoney goes to the media instead of Ozzie's office. That compounds point #2.

Daver
07-01-2004, 06:09 PM
Get back to table cleaning. :dtroll:
Calling one of the moderators here a troll is not usually a good idea.

jordan23ventura
07-01-2004, 06:13 PM
Garland was INCHES away from self-destruction on more than one occasion today, and Paulie TOTALLY bailed him out. That was not above-average, that was spectacular.

Garland has progressed? He's already had close to 700 IP at the big league level, and is always right around .500 with an ERA in the mid 4s when the season ends. I don't call that slow progression, I call that NO progression.

If Garland gets me a heavy discount on Kendall, I do it in a heartbeat. 2004 is the last chance with this core. I'm not entirely worried about losing a perennial .500, 4.50+ ERA pitcher for our rebuilding effort in '05-'08.

Save this post. When Garland EVER posts a 17-20 win, sub 4 ERA season, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. Just don't hold your breath.First off, he's a number 4 starter! He doesn't need to post a 17-20 win season.

And not progressing? Numbers don't tell the whole truth. In 16 starts, 8 have been 7innings with 3 runs or less. Here are the other 8:
Apr 14: 6.2 IP, 5 ER vs. KC - No decision, Sox won
Apr 27: 6.0 IP, 5 ER vs. CLE - No decision, Sox pen gave up 4 ER in 9th to lose
May 7: 6.0 IP, 4 ER vs. TOR - No decision, Politte blows save in 9th
May 23: 7.0 IP, 6 ER vs. MIN - WON
Jun 9: 4.0 IP, 10 ER vs. PHI - LOST
Jun 15: 6.2 IP, 3 ER vs. FLA - No decision, Sox won
Jun 20: 8.1 IP, 4 ER vs. MON - LOST, but because Garland gave up a 2-run HR in 9th. Going 8 IP and giving up 2 ER is NOT bad
Jun 25: 5.1 IP, 5 ER vs. CHC - LOST

So altogether, Garland really only cost us 2 games: the game vs. Philly (which really messed up his ERA, and the game vs. the Cubs. In the game vs. Montreal, it was Ozzie who made the mistake telling him to go nine. With Shingo or Marte closing that game would have been won.

I don't see the reason for all the negativity towards Garland. STOP only looking at numbers! He hasn't pitched badly this season.

mendozaln
07-01-2004, 06:13 PM
As I understood it, they didn't tell him he's out of the rotation, they told him that one option was sending him to the pen. He blew.
And Ozzie did promise at least one more start. But maybe no more than one.

I dont' care if he was brought here as a starter, or the ballboy. You do what's best for the team, and you sure as hell don't raise a stink in the media. Especially not when the team seems to be getting on a roll.
The only problem I have with this is that the Sox (I believe) told him that he could compete for a starter spot, and he signed under that pretense (his contract has bonuses for number of starts). If elbow problems explained his bad showings, you should let him prove that he's recovered. I don't think it's fair to treat one start after a layoff as being proof either way.

The wrench in all this is that you don't want to throw Diaz off-kilter by putting him in the bullpen while they test Schoeney. It would have been nice if Schoe could have gotten some work out of the bullpen before getting back to the rotation. It gets him back throwing in a real game environment, and you get one more chance to see Diaz.

SoxFan14
07-01-2004, 06:14 PM
What don't you get? SS is being bashed for being a public crybaby and looking very selfish. I don't care if he has every right to be angry, HE STILL SHOULD NOT HAVE WHINED ABOUT IT TO THE MEDIA.

If he doesn't want to be a team player than he shouldn't be on our team. End of story.

maurice
07-01-2004, 06:14 PM
The last time Schoeneweis got booted to the pen in favor of a young starter, it worked out pretty well for the team (http://anaheim.angels.mlb.com/images/2002/10/30/gfiybQD5.jpg). His recent comments show that he only cares about himself and would be upset to win the WS if it meant that his greatness would have to pitch out of the pen.

Hey, Scooter . . . ****.

Hey, Ozzie . . . keep up the good work.

Wanne
07-01-2004, 06:25 PM
Man...no kiddin'...just shut your mouth Shoney and do your job. I thought that was funny that Ozzie said he complains about everything. Hell...send him down to AAA for a rehab start or 2 then. I'd rather not test his elbow out during a pennant race.

SEALgep
07-01-2004, 06:26 PM
Calling one of the moderators here a troll is not usually a good idea.It was a joke.

minastirith67
07-01-2004, 06:31 PM
It was a joke.

:rolleyes:

If there were a laughing icon, I'd put it there too. You deserve a laugh.

:dtroll:

SEALgep
07-01-2004, 06:40 PM
:rolleyes:

If there were a laughing icon, I'd put it there too. You deserve a laugh.

:dtroll:Alright, this is already out of hand. Who are you to say anything?:rolleyes:

pearso66
07-01-2004, 06:41 PM
I dont get all the Garland bashing. Sure he could have lost today's game, but its not like the offense gave him 5-6 runs of support and he almost lost it, heck, they didnt even give him 3, he got 2 runs. If he gives up 3 runs and they lose, thats still a good pitched game. I didnt see the game, so I can't make any comments about it, but he did give up 1 run to a good team. are you the same guy who said he'd rather have a guy with a winning record and a high ERA vs. a losing record and an ERA of 1? Because thats what it sounds like

beckett21
07-01-2004, 08:33 PM
You guys are insane. We're talking about sticking him in the rotation behind Felix Diaz. I'd ****ing bitch, too. Schoeneweis has given us nothing but his best all year and now they want to stick him in the 'pen behind a guy who after this weekend will, at best, have 2 good starts and 2 terrible ones.

Losing a job due to injury is lowballing Scott enough, but sticking him behind Diaz is just terrible. Ozzie and Cooper are way out of line here.
Agreed Doub.

While Schoney should just keep his mouth shut, I can see his point of view clearly. Personally I agree with the line of thinking that says a player should not lose his job due to injury. It would be one thing to say that Diaz or Rauch have clearly outpitched him--but they have not. One good start each is just not good enough for me.

If in fact the injury affects his ability to start, then obviously that is a different story. But Schoeneweis deserves a chance to keep his slot in the rotation. If he falters, demote him. Diaz and Rauch did well in their last outings, but not enough to displace Schoeneweis by any stretch of the imagination.

Again Schoeneweis would be best served keeping his trap shut and staying away from Joe Cowley and friends. We don't need a malcontent, and we certainly don't need the Joe Cowleys of the world trying to start controversy in order to sell papers. At least Schoe is passionate about his job and confident in his ability. He was the most consistent guy we had the first two months; that should count for something.

As for the Garland haters, that is just plain ridiculous. Garland is 24 and the potential future of this franchise for many years to come. He should not, cannot, and WILL NOT be demoted. He is going to get the benefit of every doubt, he is going to get every possible chance to succeed. For anyone to suggest that he should be demoted is absurd. I did not get to see the game today, so I don't know how often he was *teetering on the edge.* But apparently we won 2-1, so it's good enough for me. If you don't like Garland, go ahead and jump off the bandwagon now because he is not going anywhere.

RichFitztightly
07-01-2004, 09:11 PM
I agree with Mohoney. If I have a choice between a healthy Schoenweis and Garland I'll take Schoenweis. Garland just strikes me as, for lack of a better word, a *****cat. Um... without the cat part. I don't know what it is with him. He pitched well today, but I never get comfortable watching him. I have a feeling he's going to have one year where he wins 18+ games and everybody is going to use that as an example of him turning the corner and realizing his potential. However, he'll never sustain that success and hindsight will prove it was a career year as opposed to the start of something great.

I've heard a lot of people compare Garland to Kevin Brown and it's not a bad comparison. Brown has been largely underwhelming in his career. I think Garland is reserved to the same fate.

Bottomline, Schoenweis was wrong to phrase his comments in such a way. I've read the Southtown for a while and I'm pretty certain that Joe Cowley was pretty accurate in his portrayal of the comment. However, I'd be willing to bet he didn't quite convey the true meaning of Cooper's quote to Schoenweis prompting Schoenweis's "outburst."

I'd be willing to bet everything gets smoothed out before too long.

pboy
07-01-2004, 09:27 PM
All of those blasting Schoeneweis for his actions have no idea of what really happened. Ozzie never talked to the guy. Both of them made the dumb mistake of talking to the media instead of each other. The guy has the same quality starts as the rest. The same or better era and he's got brains. More than Ozzie obviously if Ozzie can't keep his mouth shut. I 'd say Shoney was disappointed but Ozzie flew off the handle same as he did with Rausch.:o: That's not a big league manager, that's little league.

OEO Magglio
07-01-2004, 09:31 PM
All of those blasting Schoeneweis for his actions have no idea of what really happened. Ozzie never talked to the guy. Both of them made the dumb mistake of talking to the media instead of each other. The guy has the same quality starts as the rest. The same or better era and he's got brains. More than Ozzie obviously if Ozzie can't keep his mouth shut. I 'd say Shoney was disappointed but Ozzie flew off the handle same as he did with Rausch.:o: That's not a big league manager, that's little league.Well I don't know who Rausch is. The problem is I don't think there is serious talk about sticking shoney in the bullpen, it sounds like as if it's just an option no one told him he's going down there and he just went off, good for ozzie not to take that crap from any player.

Flight #24
07-01-2004, 09:34 PM
All of those blasting Schoeneweis for his actions have no idea of what really happened. Ozzie never talked to the guy. Both of them made the dumb mistake of talking to the media instead of each other. The guy has the same quality starts as the rest. The same or better era and he's got brains. More than Ozzie obviously if Ozzie can't keep his mouth shut. I 'd say Shoney was disappointed but Ozzie flew off the handle same as he did with Rausch.:o: That's not a big league manager, that's little league.
Coop never said anything about a decision, just that they're looking at options. Shoney certainly hasn't done anything to lock down the starting spot, and of the 3 guys, he's the one with successful bullpen experience.....you don't think that's worth discussion as an option?

Shoney can be as disappointed as he wants, but to say "I start or I'm out of here" is 100% uncalled for. If the manager tells him to shag flies in the OF because it's best for the team, he should be saying OK. Instead he spouts off to the media. And from the comments about his "always complaining about something", it doesn't seem like it's the first time he's been a negative influence.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-01-2004, 09:59 PM
Shoney hasn't pitched well in weeks and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find out he is seriously hurt, or that he spends significant time on the DL sometime later this season.

With the addition of Garcia there are no more free rides for marginal pitchers to get starts on the 2004 White Sox. If Shoney expects to start, he needs to beat out the guys who've earned a shot, too. That's Diaz and Rauch. Even then I would recommend skipping the #5 pitcher's starts whenever the schedule permits it.

As a group our #5's are still awfully weak. At least having three choices gives Ozzie the chance to pick the one that might be heating up a bit. Right now this definitely isn't Shoney.

OurBitchinMinny
07-01-2004, 10:04 PM
I dont see how one decent start for each of the two rauch and diaz is enough. Schoenweis has had 15 decent starts. Even the ones he is not great in he at least keeps them in the game. Id be pissed too if a rookie manager threatened to give away my spot to a two guys who have been awful way more than they have been good. Schoeny shouldnt have gone public, but ozzie should have handled it and not made the ridiculous statement in the first place. If we acquire another pitcher SS is the likely canidate to go to the pen, but if not there is no way diaz or rauch deserves to start over him unless they prove it over a larger sample than just one game. Dont forget rauch was in trouble almost every inning and the cubs arent exactly the 1927 yankees. SS has at times been the best pitcher. Dont forget elo, buerhle and garland all have eras over 4 and buerhle pitched horrible for a month straight but SS didnt get the run support that buerhle did.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-01-2004, 10:17 PM
I dont see how one decent start for each of the two rauch and diaz is enough. Schoenweis has had 15 decent starts. Even the ones he is not great in he at least keeps them in the game. Id be pissed too if a rookie manager threatened to give away my spot to a two guys who have been awful way more than they have been good. Schoeny shouldnt have gone public, but ozzie should have handled it and not made the ridiculous statement in the first place. If we acquire another pitcher SS is the likely canidate to go to the pen, but if not there is no way diaz or rauch deserves to start over him unless they prove it over a larger sample than just one game. Dont forget rauch was in trouble almost every inning and the cubs arent exactly the 1927 yankees. SS has at times been the best pitcher. Dont forget elo, buerhle and garland all have eras over 4 and buerhle pitched horrible for a month straight but SS didnt get the run support that buerhle did.Personally I don't believe *any* of them deserve a regular spot in the rotation. That's why I'm glad Ozzie has three choices. He can roll the dice by starting whoever has pitched the best most recently. That's definitely not Shoney.

Of course I'm glad to know Shoney is pissed he isn't starting. I wouldn't give a warm bucket of goo for a ballplayer who was content to sit on the bench or wait in the bullpen. That still doesn't excuse him going to the media with his beef.

owensmouth
07-01-2004, 10:21 PM
Anybody notice that it was a reporter from the Daily Southtown that wrote the initial article? The editor must be teaching his employees to jam a sharp stick in someone's ass and then write a negative story based on what the guy says. First it was Frank and the paycheck. Then it was asking Konerko and Crede how they liked not being scheduled to start. Now it's Schoenweis speaking up about starting/not starting. And of course we have our seemingly weekly story about how JR is trying to screw Ordonez.

It's beginning to sound to me like the cancer in the clubhouse is in the form of
Daily Southtown reporters. Someone needs to warn the players not to talk with those people.

SEALgep
07-01-2004, 11:23 PM
Agreed Doub.

While Schoney should just keep his mouth shut, I can see his point of view clearly. Personally I agree with the line of thinking that says a player should not lose his job due to injury. It would be one thing to say that Diaz or Rauch have clearly outpitched him--but they have not. One good start each is just not good enough for me.

If in fact the injury affects his ability to start, then obviously that is a different story. But Schoeneweis deserves a chance to keep his slot in the rotation. If he falters, demote him. Diaz and Rauch did well in their last outings, but not enough to displace Schoeneweis by any stretch of the imagination.

Again Schoeneweis would be best served keeping his trap shut and staying away from Joe Cowley and friends. We don't need a malcontent, and we certainly don't need the Joe Cowleys of the world trying to start controversy in order to sell papers. At least Schoe is passionate about his job and confident in his ability. He was the most consistent guy we had the first two months; that should count for something.

As for the Garland haters, that is just plain ridiculous. Garland is 24 and the potential future of this franchise for many years to come. He should not, cannot, and WILL NOT be demoted. He is going to get the benefit of every doubt, he is going to get every possible chance to succeed. For anyone to suggest that he should be demoted is absurd. I did not get to see the game today, so I don't know how often he was *teetering on the edge.* But apparently we won 2-1, so it's good enough for me. If you don't like Garland, go ahead and jump off the bandwagon now because he is not going anywhere.The only issue is, what if Coop was referring to putting Schoney in the pen due to another pitcher acquired. That's where a problem lies. Sure, Schoney should take presidence over Diaz, but Ortiz or someone else, no way. The way he said it, he won't want to stick around regardless of the reason. If we are able to somehow add even another arm without too much given away, and Schoney were willing to go to the pen, while maybe have acquiring another bullpen arm, we could potentially have the best pitching depth anywhere. That's where cooperation on his part could go a long way. However if he isn't down with that, I feel that qualifies as an attitude problem. With how Ozzie stated his case, it appears Schoney's comments weren't very surprising, maybe stemming from other issues or problems. We don't know, but what we do know is that if anyone doesn't want to do what's best for the team, won't have a spot on the team very long. I just assume that's how we have it all the time.

doublem23
07-01-2004, 11:35 PM
The only issue is, what if Coop was referring to putting Schoney in the pen due to another pitcher acquired. That's where a problem lies. Sure, Schoney should take presidence over Diaz, but Ortiz or someone else, no way. The way he said it, he won't want to stick around regardless of the reason. If we are able to somehow add even another arm without too much given away, and Schoney were willing to go to the pen, while maybe have acquiring another bullpen arm, we could potentially have the best pitching depth anywhere. That's where cooperation on his part could go a long way. However if he isn't down with that, I feel that qualifies as an attitude problem. With how Ozzie stated his case, it appears Schoney's comments weren't very surprising, maybe stemming from other issues or problems. We don't know, but what we do know is that if anyone doesn't want to do what's best for the team, won't have a spot on the team very long. I just assume that's how we have it all the time.
Coop never mentioned any new starter, he said they may stick Shoeneweis in the bullpen to accomodate Felix Diaz... Not Russ Ortiz. No one is saying that Scott should start and Russ (if aquired) should be in the 'pen.

If they want Scott to work in the bullpen behind Diaz, he has every right to moan and whine about this. That's a really ****ty move. PS, if Ozzie doesn't see that keeping Scott in the rotation over Felix is better for the team, I don't know what to think, and that goes much deeper than the obvious gap in talent between the two. You think it's a good message to send to your pitchers that they're jobs are up for grabs if they go down with an injury?

SEALgep
07-01-2004, 11:42 PM
Coop never mentioned any new starter, he said they may stick Shoeneweis in the bullpen to accomodate Felix Diaz... Not Russ Ortiz. No one is saying that Scott should start and Russ (if aquired) should be in the 'pen.

If they want Scott to work in the bullpen behind Diaz, he has every right to moan and whine about this. That's a really ****ty move. PS, if Ozzie doesn't see that keeping Scott in the rotation over Felix is better for the team, I don't know what to think, and that goes much deeper than the obvious gap in talent between the two. You think it's a good message to send to your pitchers that they're jobs are up for grabs if they go down with an injury?I think it's sending a message to the players that we want to win and the best people at their positions are going to play. Schoney implied that under any circumstance of not being a starter he would want out. If Diaz pitches really well, I have no problem with him starting over Schoney. If you think it's ******, well that's your opinion. I think it's dedicating this season to winning wioth no ego involved. The majority of the team agrees, and the one guy doesn't like it, with a history of crying about not getting his way, despite being on a WS winner, somehow doesn't draw sympathy from me. I want to win, the rest of the team wants to win, it's up to managment to put the best team on the field with the best players at their respected positions. If you have a problem with that, talk to Ozzie, not to the papers sounding like a whiner.

Flight #24
07-01-2004, 11:45 PM
Coop never mentioned any new starter, he said they may stick Shoeneweis in the bullpen to accomodate Felix Diaz... Not Russ Ortiz. No one is saying that Scott should start and Russ (if aquired) should be in the 'pen.
So you're saying that if Diaz goes out and throws a gem against the Cubs that he should get sent to the 'pen for Shoney....who's not exactly been dominant in the past month (ERA over 6 in June)? I'm not saying Shoney shouldn't get his job back, but it's at least a VERY viable option that should be considered.

If they want Scott to work in the bullpen behind Diaz, he has every right to moan and whine about this. That's a really ****ty move. PS, if Ozzie doesn't see that keeping Scott in the rotation over Felix is better for the team, I don't know what to think, and that goes much deeper than the obvious gap in talent between the two. You think it's a good message to send to your pitchers that they're jobs are up for grabs if they go down with an injury?
Setting aside the "obvious gap in talent" line, which basically throws away a ton of success by Diaz for 2 bad starts (really 2 bad innings).....

Might it not be better for the team to have the more experienced reliever in the 'pen? If the dropoff from Shoney to Diaz as a starter is less than the dropoff from Diaz to Shoney as a reliever.....sounds like the right move to me. The 2 roles are different, and like it or not - Shoney's had some success in each whereas IIRC, Diaz has only been a starter, and certainly at the ML level only a starter. That makes Scott more valuable due to his flexibility - you can give Diaz a try and if it doesn't work out, bring Scott back in. That's much less likely to work for Diaz. There are a lot of reasons why you'd consider moving Shoney to the 'pen. That's what it sounds like they were doing...but he had to go and throw a hissy fit.

All Scott should be thinking about is how he can best help the team out.....but it seems to be more about how he can benst help out Scott Schoenweis.

DickAllen72
07-01-2004, 11:48 PM
Anybody notice that it was a reporter from the Daily Southtown that wrote the initial article? The editor must be teaching his employees to jam a sharp stick in someone's ass and then write a negative story based on what the guy says. First it was Frank and the paycheck. Then it was asking Konerko and Crede how they liked not being scheduled to start. Now it's Schoenweis speaking up about starting/not starting. And of course we have our seemingly weekly story about how JR is trying to screw Ordonez.

It's beginning to sound to me like the cancer in the clubhouse is in the form of
Daily Southtown reporters. Someone needs to warn the players not to talk with those people.

My thoughts exactly.

WSox8404
07-02-2004, 12:15 AM
Well, if Shoney actually feels this way, then he can go ride himself. He obviously cares more about himself then he does the team, and that just plain sucks. But it may just be the reporting. Who knows. Why can't we just make it through a damn year without having to hear about stupid stuff like this?

doublem23
07-02-2004, 12:31 AM
A baseball player thinking about himself and wanting to play? What a team cancer!

This thread started at ridiculous, and 70+ posts later, it hasn't gotten any better.

FarWestChicago
07-02-2004, 12:36 AM
If they want Scott to work in the bullpen behind Diaz, he has every right to moan and whine about this.No he doesn't. Especially not when the team is playing the Twinkies and heading off to face the Evil Empire. Keep it in the Clubhouse, not on the Internet.

ma_deuce
07-02-2004, 12:38 AM
No offense, but Coop should lead by example in this case. You can't cut a guy's nuts off to the press and expect him to be thrilled with it. If I were in Schoens place, I would have told the press exactly how I felt too.

Schoen isn't playing any worse than the rest of our starters, so why should he be benched/penned up? Because he is a complainer? Come on. If complaining was a benchable offense, then Frank Thomas' carreer would have ended years ago.

IMO, everyone should just shut up and win some ball games.

Deuce

SEALgep
07-02-2004, 12:40 AM
A baseball player thinking about himself and wanting to play? What a team cancer!

This thread started at ridiculous, and 70+ posts later, it hasn't gotten any better.You're seriously underestimating team chemistry and the benefits of a player who puts his ego aside for the good of their team. It's good Schoney wants to be the starter, but it's bad he feels the way to go about it is to whine to the media and give the Sox an ultimatum. When you're healthy, go out and pitch like the spot should be yours. Otherwise do what's best for the team. The problem with your statement is that it should read a baseball player wanting to play, which is fine, but what isn't okay is the thinking about himself. He can complain all he wants, but his new team may not appreciate it either.

SEALgep
07-02-2004, 12:44 AM
No he doesn't. Especially not when the team is playing the Twinkies and heading off to face the Evil Empire. Keep it in the Clubhouse, not on the Internet.Exactly, but judging Ozzie's response, maybe he tried it already and didn't like the results. I say too bad, it doesn't give you the right to make it public. You want a trade, KW will have anyone who wants out traded within the week. Ozzie seemed very annoyed and unsurprised. To me, Schoney needs a reality check. Being on a WS winner, you would think he would have a better attitude, and want to just be part of something special like that and be able to contribute however is best for the team. SS, you're a jag bag.:angry:

bigfoot
07-02-2004, 01:27 AM
Is it just my impression, or are we all assuming that the Daily Southtown reporter quoted the entire interview, including all the questions and answers from all parties involved? With little clever editing for space restrictions and content, any column can seem like the most flagrant or benign bunch of truths.
~1st and foremost, Shoney has to heal and come back after the A/S break. There's no certainty about that is there? 15-day D/L can be just a start. Let's hope not, but that's what the 'ace of the staff' up north has been on since May 13. Day-to-day was the first diagnosis. After Shoney comes back, then let's worry about having too many starters. What a nice problem.

Mohoney
07-02-2004, 01:40 AM
First off, he's a number 4 starter! He doesn't need to post a 17-20 win season.

And not progressing? Numbers don't tell the whole truth. In 16 starts, 8 have been 7innings with 3 runs or less. Here are the other 8:
Apr 14: 6.2 IP, 5 ER vs. KC - No decision, Sox won
Apr 27: 6.0 IP, 5 ER vs. CLE - No decision, Sox pen gave up 4 ER in 9th to lose
May 7: 6.0 IP, 4 ER vs. TOR - No decision, Politte blows save in 9th
May 23: 7.0 IP, 6 ER vs. MIN - WON
Jun 9: 4.0 IP, 10 ER vs. PHI - LOST
Jun 15: 6.2 IP, 3 ER vs. FLA - No decision, Sox won
Jun 20: 8.1 IP, 4 ER vs. MON - LOST, but because Garland gave up a 2-run HR in 9th. Going 8 IP and giving up 2 ER is NOT bad
Jun 25: 5.1 IP, 5 ER vs. CHC - LOST

If he stays a #4 starter the rest of his career, then fine. I would be glad to get .500 with a mid 4 ERA from my 4th guy. I'm just worried that I will be forcefed a rotation someday that has this guy penciled in at #2, in which case I DO need 17-20 wins and a sub 4 ERA.

P.S. He may not have actually cost us that many games, but 5 starts with 5+ ERs allowed is mediocre. I don't want mediocre from a guy who is evidently supposed to be our future stud. Future studs are usually putting up better numbers than this by this point in their careers.

Blob
07-02-2004, 10:16 AM
What an idot Shoney is. No one said he was going to lose his job. It's still his to win or lose! If he keeps winning hes got the starting nod, if he doesn't it's back to the pen.


Shoney, just shut your pie-hole and pitch damn it! Or get on the horse you rose in on and get out of town! He, right now, has no room to be mouthin' off to the press!

Flight #24
07-02-2004, 10:28 AM
A baseball player thinking about himself and wanting to play? What a team cancer!

This thread started at ridiculous, and 70+ posts later, it hasn't gotten any better.
Huh? It's not exactly like he'd be riding pine. ARod was willing to move to 3B despite being the best SS in the game. Craig Biggio's moved positions twice to accomodate the team. MANY players who want to do what's best for the team make sacrifices.

Especially when you're not a core player, you fill in where the team needs you. Aaron Rowand was platooning for a while. Did he b*tch & moan? No. Frank sat out a bunch of interleague games....not a peep out of him. But the great allstar starting pitcher Scott Schoenweis can't even consider going to the pen despite being the only one of the 3 options with experience and the ability to swing back and forth to the rotation if needed.

Sheesh.

RichFitztightly
07-02-2004, 01:23 PM
Anybody notice that it was a reporter from the Daily Southtown that wrote the initial article? The editor must be teaching his employees to jam a sharp stick in someone's ass and then write a negative story based on what the guy says. First it was Frank and the paycheck. Then it was asking Konerko and Crede how they liked not being scheduled to start. Now it's Schoenweis speaking up about starting/not starting. And of course we have our seemingly weekly story about how JR is trying to screw Ordonez.

It's beginning to sound to me like the cancer in the clubhouse is in the form of
Daily Southtown reporters. Someone needs to warn the players not to talk with those people.
I've been a pretty avid reader of the Southtown for a few years now. I've seen them be ton more accurate than any other paper in town. The issue with Frank and his paycheck wasn't started by the Southtown. They wrote the article and other newspapers took one line from the story and blew the negativity out of proportion. In the Southtown article Frank shows how he feels he's not getting paid what he feels he should, yet he's deferred his ego because Mags is the MVP of the team now. Without getting into this Frank arguement again, I'll just say that it isn't the Southtown's fault this goes down.

I've stated in an earlier post that this instance with Schoenweis may have been over blown because of the Southtown, but I'm just speculating and I have no proof. As it stands, the Southtown as been very fair from what I've seen and they deserve the benefit of the doubt for a little bit at least.

gosox41
07-02-2004, 01:26 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20040701&content_id=785678&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp

Not a good time for a complainer, whether that's how you feel or not. Team attitude is a must, which I would expect from a player who was part of a WS winner.

But I'd hate to lose a great starting pitcher like Schoenweis in a trade.

I can see where Scott is coming from after reading his comments on the net and in the Trib. But he needs to shut up and pitch better. If Diaz/Rauch do take his spot in the rotation and Scotty doesn't want to be here, don let the door hit him on the way out of town.


Bob

Flight #24
07-02-2004, 04:18 PM
Well, given Loaiza's struggles, having another starter to back people up looks more and more valuable. Between ELo, Garland, Rauch/Diaz all being inconsistent - I think we may end up being glad we've got some backup pitchers.

(Which makes me even more glad we got Garcia!)

tstrike2000
07-06-2004, 02:15 AM
Unfortunately, when someone has a 5.28 career ERA as a starter and has been 1-5 in his last 6 starts with about an 9.00 ERA, they should be happy that the team is letting them pitch at all. Unfortunately for us, Schoeneweis has sucked most of his career as a starter and for us as of late. Hopefully he can come out and at least keep his ERA around the lower 4's, but that may be asking alot. I don't think Diaz or Rauch are any kind of short term or long term answers. Garland also needs to get his head out of his rear oriface. Mr. Williams, since you picked up a very good starter but just traded away two potential future all-stars along with alot of others over the years with nothing to show for it, why not make another move and pick up another starter for this year. Garcia and/or Maggs won't be here next year anyway, so let's go for it!