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ondafarm
06-30-2004, 10:57 PM
Takatsu-san's scoreless streak went by the wayside tonight and I am convinced that Ozzie is not utilizing him properly. Takatsu began as a starter many years ago and bounced back and forth between the minors and majors until he caught on as a reliever. But he never was a classic closer like Forster, Gossage or Lee Smith. These men threw heat and nothing much but. They got better with work every day or nearly. Takatsu is more like a starter than that. He needs a day off between outings and Ozzie seems convinced to use him like a flameballing closer.

Will he wise up?

lowesox
06-30-2004, 11:00 PM
Well, I think the fact that Takatsu got used last night with a 5 run lead goes to show 1) how badly we need solid bullpen help 2) that Ozzie is a little quick to just call Takatsu's name.

doublem23
06-30-2004, 11:00 PM
The all-time saves leader in Japan is more starter-like than closer-like?

:whoflungpoo

He's given up ONE run in his last 27 or so innings.

MRKARNO
06-30-2004, 11:01 PM
Well, I think the fact that Takatsu got used last night with a 5 run lead goes to show 1) how badly we need solid bullpen help 2) that Ozzie is a little quick to just call Takatsu's name. It was a four run leadand were it a five run lead, Cotts would have come out instead

owensmouth
06-30-2004, 11:03 PM
It also says how important Ozzie thinks these games are for the Sox.

AnkleSox
06-30-2004, 11:03 PM
It's obvious he's going to give up some runs some time, if he's going to be used in a tired situation, or in a situation when he's gone so long that its inevitable he's going to give up a run sometime soon, its better to have it done when the sox have a decent lead.

kevingrt
06-30-2004, 11:05 PM
I have no problem with the way Ozzie is utilizing Shingo, but this be a little over-analyzing by you guys. He's our closer, he's coming in to close out games. Save opportunity or not, he's getting the job done.

MeanFish
06-30-2004, 11:06 PM
It's a four run lead against the Twins. That's certainly a bit different than a four run lead against more or less any other team.

I'll get nervous if we use him too much against OTHER teams, but with the Twins, when we've got them down we've got to kick em in the throat. If that means using Takatsu if Marte is already used up, then that's just what it means. Having said that, I won't be at all surprised if we get Urbina or someone similar very soon.

Jerry_Manuel
06-30-2004, 11:06 PM
Minnesota doesn't go away, these games are big. No need to mess around with Cotts or Action Jackson.

MeanFish
06-30-2004, 11:07 PM
You certainly don't think like your namesake :)

voodoochile
06-30-2004, 11:08 PM
Okay, the Sox are up by 4 with a chance to go up a game on the Twins in the standings and keep the road sweep of their top division rival alive going into the ninth.

Ozzie brings out the closer in a "non-save" situation. Let's ask the former manager what he would have done...

:jerry
"He should have used Cotts."

:KW
"And that's why you got fired, dumbass..."

:ozzie
"That's why I make out the ****ing lineup!"

:fans
"Oz-Zie Oz-Zie, Oz-Zie

MRKARNO
06-30-2004, 11:09 PM
Some people just dont know how to be happy...

You want to put Adkins in there? I wouldnt. If it's a 5 run lead thats one thing, but 4 run lead is not an assured victory

chisoxjk
06-30-2004, 11:09 PM
Before Shingo came in yesterday, he had not pitched since Saturday. Before that you have to go back to last Tuesday.

Like any other closer, he needs to keep pitching to develop a rhythm. I don't think he is being overused or incorrectly used at all.

Soxzilla
06-30-2004, 11:10 PM
Minnesota doesn't go away, these games are big. No need to mess around with Cotts or Action Jackson.
Exactly.

As a Sox fan, seeing shingo come out is a becoming a tradition of knowing we have this game under wraps.

Not too mention the more experience he gets in the majors the better. Like he said in his interview with rooney or farmer, he still gets butterflies in his stomach when the call to the pen comes in for him.

Daver
06-30-2004, 11:11 PM
Some people just dont know how to be happy...

You want to put Adkins in there? I wouldnt. If it's a 5 run lead thats one thing, but 4 run lead is not an assured victory
No lead is an assured victory.

That is why they play the games.

A. Cavatica
06-30-2004, 11:14 PM
Pray tell, how much lower would his ERA be if Ozzie was using him properly?

MRKARNO
06-30-2004, 11:15 PM
Oh no! Takatsu's ERA is up to 1.19!

kittle42
07-01-2004, 12:54 AM
Takatsu-san's scoreless streak went by the wayside tonight and I am convinced that Ozzie is not utilizing him properly.
:angry: :angry: :angry:

Grow up.

StockdaleForVeep
07-01-2004, 01:05 AM
Takatsu-san's scoreless streak went by the wayside tonight and I am convinced that Ozzie is not utilizing him properly. Takatsu began as a starter many years ago and bounced back and forth between the minors and majors until he caught on as a reliever. But he never was a classic closer like Forster, Gossage or Lee Smith. These men threw heat and nothing much but. They got better with work every day or nearly. Takatsu is more like a starter than that. He needs a day off between outings and Ozzie seems convinced to use him like a flameballing closer.

Will he wise up?

Its not like his velocity is gonna be affected from overworking. Hell it may even improve it.

gobears1987
07-01-2004, 01:09 AM
Seriously, this isn't overworking him. If he was once a starter than going a max of 3 innings in a week is nothing. If anything, he is underused, but I wouldn't use him more than this just to stay safe. I trust Ozzie and Coop's calls, after all if we knew more we would be the managers.

StockdaleForVeep
07-01-2004, 01:13 AM
Seriously, this isn't overworking him. If he was once a starter than going a max of 3 innings in a week is nothing. If anything, he is underused, but I wouldn't use him more than this just to stay safe. I trust Ozzie and Coop's calls, after all if we knew more we would be the managers.

Every pitcher was a starter at one time in their career. With the exception of the kid we traded then traded to the mets, nobody starts their career wanting to be a closer. Nearly every closer has been a failed starter.

TDog
07-01-2004, 01:28 AM
If you want a classic hard-throwing closer, there's Billy Koch. You might be able to pry him away from his new team. He throws harder than Foulke or Shingo.

Bob Howry just called called up by the Indians, so he's probably not available. But I'll bet Matt Karchner still throws harder than Shingo. But I doubt he could get most hitters out.

StockdaleForVeep
07-01-2004, 01:39 AM
If you want a classic hard-throwing closer, there's Billy Koch. You might be able to pry him away from his new team. He throws harder than Foulke or Shingo.

Bob Howry just called called up by the Indians, so he's probably not available. But I'll bet Matt Karchner still throws harder than Shingo. But I doubt he could get most hitters out.And karchner is arguably the worst pitcher the sox ever had with special consideration to Navarro. This is the worst misconception in baseball, that if you can throw mid 90's, your on a team. This led to the extreme watering down of minor league teams talent wise. Rarely do we see now a young pitcher come up who has finess, since now the focus is all heat heat heat. I have a friend in Nevada who is a decent pitcher(was very good on his high school team) and tried out for UNLV and other nearby schools and no coach would even look at him cuz his fast ball topped out 82-85.

The fireball pitchers today have heat but they also have excellent control and mastery of it. You look at this crop of new fireballin pitchers like wood, burnett, dempster, beckett,oswalt. All these young pitchers are taught is throw heat throw heat and all of them are sufferin horrid injuries, be it arm with most of them or other body areas that are vital to pitching.

Look at pitchers like maddux and buehrle, guys who dont rely on overpowering, just finess and fine pitching.
The oakland quadruplets(this year hudson broke down) are not a fireballin team, they rely on offspeed\mix up pitches and look how sucessful they are.

knocko94
07-01-2004, 01:50 AM
And karchner is arguably the worst pitcher the sox ever had with special consideration to Navarro. This is the worst misconception in baseball, that if you can throw mid 90's, your on a team. This led to the extreme watering down of minor league teams talent wise. Rarely do we see now a young pitcher come up who has finess, since now the focus is all heat heat heat. I have a friend in Nevada who is a decent pitcher(was very good on his high school team) and tried out for UNLV and other nearby schools and no coach would even look at him cuz his fast ball topped out 82-85.

The fireball pitchers today have heat but they also have excellent control and mastery of it. You look at this crop of new fireballin pitchers like wood, burnett, dempster, beckett,oswalt. All these young pitchers are taught is throw heat throw heat and all of them are sufferin horrid injuries, be it arm with most of them or other body areas that are vital to pitching.

Look at pitchers like maddux and buehrle, guys who dont rely on overpowering, just finess and fine pitching.
The oakland quadruplets(this year hudson broke down) are not a fireballin team, they rely on offspeed\mix up pitches and look how sucessful they are.



If anything, throwing nothing but heat increases arm strength. Guys like Wood, etc have problems because they've been throwing wicked breaking stuff since they were 15 years old.

fuzzy_patters
07-01-2004, 02:40 AM
I cannot believe that anyone would suggest that Takatsu needs more days off because he was a starter year ago, if that is even true. By that logic if Takatsu needs more days off, the Dodgers must be horribly misusing Eric Gagne because he was a Major League starter just 3 or 4 years ago when he pitched for Toronto, and they trot him out there all the time.

StockdaleForVeep
07-01-2004, 02:46 AM
If anything, throwing nothing but heat increases arm strength. Guys like Wood, etc have problems because they've been throwing wicked breaking stuff since they were 15 years old.

What good is that arm strength when they have horrid control and just know how to throw it hard and straight.

kojak
07-01-2004, 04:16 AM
I think the real question here is What Would Jesus do?


So, let's find out:

http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Sacred_Heart/jesus.jpg

Verily I say unto thee, blessed be thy Shingo.
For whosever relieth upon thy Jackson shall not
take up thy Cotts and walk and he will surely perish.

StockdaleForVeep
07-01-2004, 04:23 AM
I think the real question here is What Would Jesus do?


So, let's find out:

http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Sacred_Heart/jesus.jpg

Verily I say unto thee, blessed be thy Shingo.
For whosever relieth upon thy Jackson shall not
take up thy Cotts and walk and he will surely perish.
What a terrifying curve ball

SSN721
07-01-2004, 07:19 AM
Some logical arguments, I was discussing this very subject last night. I thought he was used improperly as well, just because I thought with 4 run leads 2 nights in a row I didnt want him pitching against the same exact part of the lineup 2 nights in a row. But Mauer seems to be the only guy since Bubba Crosby (I think?) to figure Shingo out. And the more I think about it, the more I agree that we need to kick the Twinkies when they are down and go for the throat. So the more I think about it, the more I don't mind using him in this situation.

ondafarm
07-01-2004, 07:49 AM
I cannot believe that anyone would suggest that Takatsu needs more days off because he was a starter year ago, if that is even true. By that logic if Takatsu needs more days off, the Dodgers must be horribly misusing Eric Gagne because he was a Major League starter just 3 or 4 years ago when he pitched for Toronto, and they trot him out there all the time.
Power pitchers can make the transition to American style closers much easier than finesse guys. Gagne has always been a flameballer. Takatsu is not.

I'm probably the only person posting on this board who has faced Takatsu and he was a starter back when he came out of college. He had a small number of starts with Yakult in the majors as well. Finesse pitchers need their days off to restore fine muscle control.

Having said that, these games against Minnesota are absolutely critical and using your best pitchers, regardless of when they've pitched is a good thing.

BeerHandle
07-01-2004, 09:19 AM
Takatsu-san's scoreless streak went by the wayside tonight and I am convinced that Ozzie is not utilizing him properly. Takatsu began as a starter many years ago and bounced back and forth between the minors and majors until he caught on as a reliever. But he never was a classic closer like Forster, Gossage or Lee Smith. These men threw heat and nothing much but. They got better with work every day or nearly. Takatsu is more like a starter than that. He needs a day off between outings and Ozzie seems convinced to use him like a flameballing closer.

Will he wise up?
I don't think Ozzie used Mr. Zero properly yesterday.

First, he faced the same batters as the night before

Second, we have a four run lead

Third, we have a day game today (12:10 p.m.) where we will probably need him

Fourth, Adkins could have used some work and if he let in a run then bring in Mr. Zero.

PEACE OUT!

hawkjt
07-01-2004, 09:32 AM
Yes these games are very important. But will Shingo be available today if we have a one run lead in the 8th? I doubt it. Be a little more selective in his use ,Oz. Plus it is another look for the twins at his tricky stuff. They are not going anywhere (twins). This is going to come down to those six in late sept. Will Shingo be alive by then?

MRKARNO
07-01-2004, 09:34 AM
I don't think Ozzie used Mr. Zero properly yesterday.

First, he faced the same batters as the night before

Second, we have a four run lead

Third, we have a day game today (12:10 p.m.) where we will probably need him

Fourth, Adkins could have used some work and if he let in a run then bring in Mr. Zero.

PEACE OUT!
I agree with most of those points, but you dont want to mess around with the Twins. Shingo has meant game over recently and I think it was better to ensure the victory than to take a gamble and possibly have Takatsu come on with the tying run on base.

Blob
07-01-2004, 09:38 AM
Is anyone ever happy about the Sox? When Koch was here all the posts were put in Shingo. Now he puts him in a people still bitch. :angry: We needed him last night, the Stinkies could have come back on us in a heartbeat last night. You should know by now, they are NEVER out of the game. I felt ALOT better knowing Shingo was in there and even after he gave up the homer I was still secure in the fact he was going to close it out for a win.


ENJOY THE WINS!!!!!!!!!! HOWEVER THEY COME!!!!!!

pczarapa
07-01-2004, 09:41 AM
Takatsu-san's scoreless streak went by the wayside tonight and I am convinced that Ozzie is not utilizing him properly. Takatsu began as a starter many years ago and bounced back and forth between the minors and majors until he caught on as a reliever. But he never was a classic closer like Forster, Gossage or Lee Smith. These men threw heat and nothing much but. They got better with work every day or nearly. Takatsu is more like a starter than that. He needs a day off between outings and Ozzie seems convinced to use him like a flameballing closer.

Will he wise up?

Hmm, an ERA in the low 1's with 30 innings pitched doesn't seem too bad to me. I don't think it matters if you're a flame thrower or not, it all depends on whether or not you can sit down three people in an inning. I like the way Ozzie's been using him, and I don't think he was tired last night, Mauer was just hot.

Mickster
07-01-2004, 10:28 AM
Hmm, an ERA in the low 1's with 30 innings pitched doesn't seem too bad to me. I don't think it matters if you're a flame thrower or not, it all depends on whether or not you can sit down three people in an inning. I like the way Ozzie's been using him, and I don't think he was tired last night, Mauer was just hot.While I do think that Mauer is hot, I don't think that this is the particular reason that he's able to hit Shingo with some consistancy. Younger hitters, (think Mauer, Crosby) aren't at the point of thinking like a major league batter.

If you remember back to spring training, Shingo was getting lit up quite a bit. When facing batters in ST, you are generally facing a lot of younger hitters, some AA and quite a few AAA players who, quite frankly, don't think like major league hitters yet. To be a successful major league hitter, you have to be able to see the ball out of the pitchers hand, see the rotation and be able to "guess" (for the lack of a better word) what type of pitch will be thrown in a particular situation or pitch count. You always hear the expression "he was looking for the fastball and got the change-up", etc... Shingo is able to out-think major league hitters....

That being said, Shingo threw a meatball over the plate and it got crushed. No biggie.

SoxFan78
07-01-2004, 10:29 AM
Is anyone ever happy about the Sox? When Koch was here all the posts were put in Shingo. Now he puts him in a people still bitch. :angry: We needed him last night, the Stinkies could have come back on us in a heartbeat last night. You should know by now, they are NEVER out of the game. I felt ALOT better knowing Shingo was in there and even after he gave up the homer I was still secure in the fact he was going to close it out for a win.


ENJOY THE WINS!!!!!!!!!! HOWEVER THEY COME!!!!!!
Hell yeah!!

People bitch if we lose, now we bitch when we win? When are you guys gonna be happy? I bet you there would be a bigger thread if Adkins would of come in and let up 3 runs. There would be threads like.

HOW COME SHINGO WASN'T BROUGHT IN?

FIRE OZZIE, HE HAS NO CONFIDENCE IN SHINGO!

VERY IMPORTANT SERIES, WHERE IS SHINGO???

You can't have it both ways people. I loved when Shingo came in. I have total confidence, no matter what. A home run by Maurer. Oh well, no worries at all.

Be happy, the White Sox are in first by 1 game!!

SoxBoy14
07-01-2004, 10:35 AM
I'm happy with the win yesterday. Although sadly Shingo allowed a run, something he hasn't done in about 33 innings, he still finished the game with a Sox win.

rdivaldi
07-01-2004, 10:38 AM
If you guys can believe it, the White Sox bullpen is actually the 2nd LEAST used bullpen in the entire major leagues. Our pen has only pitched 199 innings for the entire season, which is 7 behind league leading Oakland.

I don't think we need to worry about overuse.

Over By There
07-01-2004, 10:41 AM
I don't really have a problem with it, but I have to admit thinking that maybe we should have held him back so that the Twins hitters don't get a look at him until we're in a really tight save situation somewhere down the line. Games against the Twins are huge, though, and I can't fault Ozzie for not screwing around and making sure we win.

daveeym
07-01-2004, 11:31 AM
Takatsu-san's scoreless streak went by the wayside tonight and I am convinced that Ozzie is not utilizing him properly. Takatsu began as a starter many years ago and bounced back and forth between the minors and majors until he caught on as a reliever. But he never was a classic closer like Forster, Gossage or Lee Smith. These men threw heat and nothing much but. They got better with work every day or nearly. Takatsu is more like a starter than that. He needs a day off between outings and Ozzie seems convinced to use him like a flameballing closer.

Will he wise up? :kukoo: :kukoo: :kukoo: :kukoo: Leave the tin foil hat in the roadhouse where i'll have your back.

daveeym
07-01-2004, 11:32 AM
I don't really have a problem with it, but I have to admit thinking that maybe we should have held him back so that the Twins hitters don't get a look at him until we're in a really tight save situation somewhere down the line. Games against the Twins are huge, though, and I can't fault Ozzie for not screwing around and making sure we win. Ok the perception that it's all trickery and Shingo will be figured out is BS. He can flat out pitch, this idea needs to be put to rest.

rmusacch
07-01-2004, 11:34 AM
It was a four run leadand were it a five run lead, Cotts would have come out instead
Why send him out there with a four run lead? Ozzie has used our "closer" two nights in a row in non-save situations. He may not be available today if we need him in a save situation. If he is the closer, use him like a closer.

kittle42
07-01-2004, 11:38 AM
Why send him out there with a four run lead? Ozzie has used our "closer" two nights in a row in non-save situations. He may not be available today if we need him in a save situation. If he is the closer, use him like a closer.
I hate all of you people. :smile:

Blob
07-01-2004, 11:39 AM
Ok the perception that it's all trickery and Shingo will be figured out is BS. He can flat out pitch, this idea needs to be put to rest.
I believe the more a batter that faces him, the harder it will be to hit off him next time! The more you have seen his stuff up front the more thinking the batter has to do next time. Which pitch will I get this time...

If someone can be figured out by pitching him too much, then the MLB has no need for closers period. Everyone would close games...

daveeym
07-01-2004, 11:43 AM
I believe the more a batter that faces him, the harder it will be to hit off him next time! The more you have seen his stuff up front the more thinking the batter has to do next time. Which pitch will I get this time...

If someone can be figured out by pitching him too much, then the MLB has no need for closers period. Everyone would close games...
Agreed, some people have your number but if you can pitch you can pitch. If every pitcher got figured out clemens, pedro, johnson, and every other pitcher would be out of the game by the age of 35.

SoxFan78
07-01-2004, 11:54 AM
Agreed, some people have your number but if you can pitch you can pitch. If every pitcher got figured out clemens, pedro, johnson, and every other pitcher would be out of the game by the age of 35.
Hey, those pitchers are terrible! All of those pitchers have let up more then one run every 24 innings!

maurice
07-01-2004, 12:15 PM
How quickly some have forgotten the Jose Paniagua fiasco.

Over By There
07-01-2004, 12:20 PM
Ok the perception that it's all trickery and Shingo will be figured out is BS. He can flat out pitch, this idea needs to be put to rest.
Wasn't nesessarily implying that he is all smoke and mirrors, I have just as much faith in Shingo long-term as anyone.

Shingo or anyone else though, I think there is probably something to the theory about seeing a guy for the first time. Just take a look at some of our historical performances when we face a pitcher for the first time. Every little bit helps was my thinking. Again, all that said, I don't have a problem with Oz running him out there the last two nights. Being in first place right now is what matters! :cool:

daveeym
07-01-2004, 12:27 PM
Wasn't nesessarily implying that he is all smoke and mirrors, I have just as much faith in Shingo long-term as anyone.

Shingo or anyone else though, I think there is probably something to the theory about seeing a guy for the first time. Just take a look at some of our historical performances when we face a pitcher for the first time. Every little bit helps was my thinking. Again, all that said, I don't have a problem with Oz running him out there the last two nights. Being in first place right now is what matters! :cool: You're post was just a good one to touch on the smoke and mirrors group.

kojak
07-01-2004, 12:37 PM
Ozzie felt last night's game was of critical psychological importance to use his Money Piece. We needed to set ourselves up for a title run by starting the Freddy Garcia era with a big win.


And that is precisely what we did!

professionalfan
07-01-2004, 12:42 PM
Ozzie felt last night's game was of critical psychological importance to use his Money Piece. We needed to set ourselves up for a title run by starting the Freddy Garcia era with a big win.


And that is precisely what we did!


Totally agree with you. Sometimes you need your closer to guarantee a big win even if it is not a save situation.

RustyKuntz
07-01-2004, 01:08 PM
http://i.myspace.com/00/02/1502000/12444672_l.jpg

Mickster
07-01-2004, 01:10 PM
http://i.myspace.com/00/02/1502000/12444672_l.jpg
***??? :D:

jeremyb1
07-01-2004, 02:23 PM
Now what? It's still somewhat early but we actually have a close game (1 run) right now and we threw Shingo and Marte in a not so close game last night. I hope they're both still available or that Politte continues his recent hot streak.

sendimjoey
07-01-2004, 03:21 PM
Okay, the Sox are up by 4 with a chance to go up a game on the Twins in the standings and keep the road sweep of their top division rival alive going into the ninth.

Ozzie brings out the closer in a "non-save" situation. Let's ask the former manager what he would have done...

:jerry
"He should have used Cotts."

:KW
"And that's why you got fired, dumbass..."

:ozzie
"That's why I make out the ****ing lineup!"

:fans
"Oz-Zie Oz-Zie, Oz-Zie
Funniest post this week!