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View Full Version : To anyone who believes Miguel is a future all star catcher...


MRKARNO
06-29-2004, 07:24 PM
Do you believe that he will be better than the following catchers will be in a few years? Of these catchers, I believe at least 2 or 3 will likely than him in a given year:

Victor Martinez
Jorge Posada
Jason Varitek
Ivan Rodriguez
Joe Mauer
Bengie Molina (defensively)

brewerfan
06-29-2004, 07:53 PM
Joe Mauer has no cartilage in his knees now because of his surgery for his injury earlier this year. He won't be catching much longer.

fquaye149
06-29-2004, 07:58 PM
Do you sincerely believe that he will be better than the following catchers will be in a few years? Of these catchers, I believe at least 2 or 3 will be better than him in a given year:

Victor Martinez
Jorge Posada
Jason Varitek
Ivan Rodriguez
Joe Mauer
Bengie Molina (defensively)
Posada will only be playing catcher for a few more years
Varitek is not a great catcher, though his numbers might be good because of fenway plus he plays in boston so miguel might not be able to beat him out
Victor Martinez has more talent than Miguel probably, of course it's always a toss up with young catchers (miguel included)
I-Rod will not be playing catcher in 3 or 4 years. if he is i'll be shocked.
Mauer is the same as martinez
molina maybe be good defensively, but is not an allstar catcher

Martinez and Mauer are the best young catchers and probably will always be better than miguel, but you never can tell with these young players

pudge
06-29-2004, 08:03 PM
Jesus, Karno, if the Sox traded Mark Buehrle, you'd be telling us how much of a decline he's in and what a great trade it was for the Sox.

Personally, I think Olivo will be recognized as an All-Star catcher in the coming years. He's already known as one of the top defensive guys, and if his bat continues to mature, he could definitely be there. I believe Dan Wilson was an All-Star catcher once, it's not that tough to achieve.

MRKARNO
06-29-2004, 08:05 PM
Jesus, Karno, if the Sox traded Mark Buehrle, you'd be telling us how much of a decline he's in and what a great trade it was for the Sox.

Personally, I think Olivo will be recognized as an All-Star catcher in the coming years. He's already known as one of the top defensive guys, and if his bat continues to mature, he could definitely be there. I believe Dan Wilson was an All-Star catcher once, it's not that tough to achieve.
OK so maybe he can make a few all star games in his career, but some people made it sound like we surely traded away the next Ivan Rodriguez/Carlton Fisk (see Perrennial All Star catchers). Just like we traded Cys Fogg and Wells to Pittsburgh

champagne030
06-29-2004, 08:07 PM
Do you sincerely believe that he will be better than the following catchers will be in a few years? Of these catchers, I believe at least 2 or 3 will be better than him in a given year:

Victor Martinez
Jorge Posada
Jason Varitek
Ivan Rodriguez
Joe Mauer
Bengie Molina (defensively)
Posada, Varitek and Rodriquez are all 7 years older than Olivo. Molina is 2 years older and Martinez is the same age as Olivo. Martinez and Mauer are the only two that a rebuilding team(2+ years) would take instead of Olivo. And that doesn't consider salary.....

Daver
06-29-2004, 08:10 PM
Ivan Rodriguez is an All star because of his bat, not because of his skills behind the plate.

RedPinStripes
06-29-2004, 08:19 PM
Ivan Rodriguez is an All star because of his bat, not because of his skills behind the plate.
Best arm behind the plate. He won a WS. He does something right back there with those pitchers.

mendozaln
06-29-2004, 08:20 PM
OK so maybe he can make a few all star games in his career, but some people made it sound like we surely traded away the next Ivan Rodriguez/Carlton Fisk (see Perrennial All Star catchers). Just like we traded Cys Fogg and Wells to Pittsburgh
I think both sides exaggerated. He's not the best young catcher in the league, but he's good, and most teams are eager just to find someone solid. I was a very big Olivo fan, but I would have been very happy w/ an all-star game or 2. Or none, as long as he would have cut down the K's a bit, hit .260-.280 w/ 15-20 hrs a year. It's easy to find catchers who are black holes at the end of the lineup, so that type of production along w/ his defense seems quite valuable.

Isn't the Ritchie trade a bad example? Even if Wells and Fogg aren't tearing it up, that still ranks as the worst trade I can remember.

Daver
06-29-2004, 08:24 PM
Best arm behind the plate. He won a WS. He does something right back there with those pitchers.
If your calling pitches based solely on padding your throwing stats you are not doing something right, you are doing your pitching staff a disservice.

RedPinStripes
06-29-2004, 08:33 PM
If your calling pitches based solely on padding your throwing stats you are not doing something right, you are doing your pitching staff a disservice.
I agree he wants to pad his put out stats, but it could have been just Josh Beckett, Pavano and Penny making him look good. If that's the kind of catcher that will win you a series, I'll take it. It did help that he was on fire in the playoffs offensively too.

poorme
06-29-2004, 09:10 PM
If your calling pitches based solely on padding your throwing stats you are not doing something right, you are doing your pitching staff a disservice.
Funny he left Texas and their ERA went up.
He went to FLA and their ERA went down.
He went to DEt and their ERA went down too.

Daver
06-29-2004, 09:11 PM
Funny he left Texas and their ERA went up.
He went to FLA and their ERA went down.
He went to DEt and their ERA went down too.
How many pitchers have ever been quoted as saying they miss Ivan behind the plate?

ode to veeck
06-29-2004, 09:29 PM
you know that is a good question on Mo, was Sandy favored more by guys like Mark etc because of his tons of behind the plate experience in calling a game or because Mo don't have it? --I dunno the answer on that one, but we will certainly miss Mo both at the plate and defensively behind it, best guy we had there since Charles Johnson, the human backstop from '00

poorme
06-29-2004, 10:05 PM
How many pitchers have ever been quoted as saying they miss Ivan behind the plate?
How many pitchers have ever been quoted as saying they miss any catcher behind the plate?

Do you have some quotes from pitchers criticizing him in the last few years?

soxtalker
06-29-2004, 10:14 PM
I thought that Buerhle seemed a bit upset by the the loss of Olivo when he was interviewed right after the trade.

idseer
06-29-2004, 10:19 PM
I-Rod will not be playing catcher in 3 or 4 years. if he is i'll be shocked.

prepare to be shocked. irod doesn't want to do anything BUT catch.

idseer
06-29-2004, 10:21 PM
Personally, I think Olivo will be recognized as an All-Star catcher in the coming years. He's already known as one of the top defensive guys, and if his bat continues to mature, he could definitely be there. I believe Dan Wilson was an All-Star catcher once, it's not that tough to achieve.
sorry to tell you this but his bat is NOT continuing to mature. why do people keep saying this?

mendozaln
06-29-2004, 10:44 PM
sorry to tell you this but his bat is NOT continuing to mature. why do people keep saying this?Why do you say this? His K/BB ratio is better than last year, his BA is better, and he already has more HRs. Plus, he just isn't taking those ridiculous cuts like he was last year. He looks MUCH better to me. It's only his 2nd big league season, you can't really look for long-run trends here.

idseer
06-29-2004, 10:49 PM
Why do you say this? His K/BB ratio is better than last year, his BA is better, and he already has more HRs. Plus, he just isn't taking those ridiculous cuts like he was last year. He looks MUCH better to me. It's only his 2nd big league season, you can't really look for long-run trends here.
i say this because all those nice things you mentioned are against left handers.
he's batting .190 against righties ... no power 27 k's vs 7 walks.

he's a platoon player and i see no reason for that to change and his career splits are just as bad. that's why he's only appeared in 45 games.

mendozaln
06-29-2004, 11:04 PM
i say this because all those nice things you mentioned are against left handers.
he's batting .190 against righties ... no power 27 k's vs 7 walks.

he's a platoon player and i see no reason for that to change and his career splits are just as bad. that's why he's only appeared in 45 games.
That's true, and it is a big weakness, but he's still young enough to adjust for that. And the fact that he's hitting much better overall (even if a good deal of the improvement is vs lefties), and just seems to be not quite as predictable on that breaking ball away :rolleyes: , makes me think that he could learn to bring his numbers against righties up.

idseer
06-29-2004, 11:50 PM
That's true, and it is a big weakness, but he's still young enough to adjust for that. And the fact that he's hitting much better overall (even if a good deal of the improvement is vs lefties), and just seems to be not quite as predictable on that breaking ball away :rolleyes: , makes me think that he could learn to bring his numbers against righties up.
?????????
still young enough to adjust for that? what kind of theory is that?

so any young guy that can't hit will 'adjust' to that? it seems to me that if you cannot hit righthanders and you never could it's a good bet you never will!
if everyone could adjust .... they all would!

doublem23
06-30-2004, 12:17 AM
I thought that Buerhle seemed a bit upset by the the loss of Olivo when he was interviewed right after the trade.
Maybe off the field, but on, Buehrle preferred Sandy to catch his games.

bennyw41
06-30-2004, 12:28 AM
I don't like how people are trying to justify how "bad" miguel is now that he's not on the team. I think its classless. Wills was doing it tonight too, I just don't think you need to bad mouth him, its not like he ditched the team for more money or soemthing.

doublem23
06-30-2004, 12:34 AM
Saying that Miguel may not ever be in the same class of the Rodriguezs and Posadas of the league isn't bad-mouthing him, IMO. I think Miguel will eventually get to an All-Star game of few, but that doesn't mean that thinking he won't is some sort of slam.

CWSGuy406
06-30-2004, 01:00 AM
Just an observation here:

I think a lot of people are looking a lot more at what we gave up, rather than we got. We got one of the two prized 'diamonds' in this year's Trade Deadline. Olivo will be missed; Reed will be missed.

But pitching is what will get us the rings.

We'll see in a couple of months...

TaylorStSox
06-30-2004, 04:45 AM
First, MB didn't work with Olivo because he pitches so fast. He needs a guy that doesn't look over to the dugout for pitch selection.


Anybody that doesn't see the tools of Olivo and the potential he has are just drinking the black/silver kool-aid. He's a GOOD MLB catcher right now. He has the potential to be a stud.

Any of the guys named in this thread are REALLY good. Right now, catcher is the hardest position on the diamond to fill, even more than SS. Good catchers are extremely rare. We had one. He's gone. Now, we need to find somebody to fill his role.


We'll miss Olivo for years. That's a promise.

As far as IROD, he has the quickest feet I've ever seen from the C position. Compound that with his arm, and you have greatness(defensively). His bat is just a bonus.

Piazza, along with Frank and Manny, is the best RH hitter most of us will ever see.

TaylorStSox
06-30-2004, 04:52 AM
BTW, I can't believe that one of the arguments in this thread was "a few all star games." We're talking about a catcher. A CATCHER. Any AS games you get out of that spot is a huge bonus. I really can't believe I'm reading some of the posts in this thread.


Regardless of what you heard or thought/ Miguel Olivo is one of the best catchers in the game RIGHT NOW. It hurts to lose that.

Catcher/SS/CF are the most valuable positions on the field. You keep any defensive studs from those positions. Offense is a bonus/icing on the cake.

mendozaln
06-30-2004, 09:56 AM
?????????
still young enough to adjust for that? what kind of theory is that?

so any young guy that can't hit will 'adjust' to that? it seems to me that if you cannot hit righthanders and you never could it's a good bet you never will!
if everyone could adjust .... they all would!
"Never could" is just based off last year? You don't get to the majors, you don't hit like Olivo did in the minors, heck, you don't even get noticed in a camp, if at every level you hit .200 against righties. He's obviously had a hard time developing patience in the ML. Last year he just couldn't resist that junk low and away from a rhp. But he was more patient in the minors, and if he can develop that in the ML his numbers will improve. Almost 1/3 of his outs against righties is on K's. But his aggregate K/BB ratio is much worse now (about 4/1) than in the minors (about 1.5/1 in his last couple years). Moreover, his patience in the minors improved over time, which shows that he has been able to improve that aspect of his game, unlike many other players (Borchard, eg).

Now I did not say "everyone could adjust", and maybe he won't. However, IMHO minor league stats are useful indicators. On the other hand, using one (rookie) season as a long history seems pretty bizarre.

Randar68
06-30-2004, 10:48 AM
?????????
still young enough to adjust for that? what kind of theory is that?

so any young guy that can't hit will 'adjust' to that? it seems to me that if you cannot hit righthanders and you never could it's a good bet you never will!
if everyone could adjust .... they all would!
He didn't have those decisive splits in the minor leagues. Oh well. I'm not going to beat my head against this wall.

MRKARNO
06-30-2004, 10:52 AM
Regardless of what you heard or thought/ Miguel Olivo is one of the best catchers in the game RIGHT NOW. It hurts to lose that.

I'm going to refute that statement. Catchers I think are better right now, either for their bat, game calling or defensive ability:

Victor Martinez
Jorge Posada
Jason Varitek
Ivan Rodriguez
AJ Pierzynski
Damian Miller
Mike Matheny
Brad Ausmus
Bengie Molina
Jason Kendall
Johnny Estrada
Brian Schneider (impossible to run on)
Paul Lo Duca

But I do think Olivo falls right behind these catchers. He still has a lot of work to do in orde to bypass any of these catchers for various reasons. If he could ever learn to hit right handed pitching, then I think he could be very good, but I dont think that he'll hit .270 this year or get a lot of homers because of that ballpark and the amount of time they'll play Dan Wilson.

Olivo does have the athletic ability that most catchers dont: He is fast and has a lot of power, but he will never be a great hitter unless he figures out right handed pitching, which he has shown no signs of improvement against.

Plus he has to earn the confidence of pitchers. It really says a lot to me that Buehrle wasnt willing to pitch to Olivo, but he had no problem pitching to Burke last night. What does that say about Olivo's game calling ability or a pitchers' confidence in him behind the plate?

idseer
06-30-2004, 11:42 AM
"Never could" is just based off last year? You don't get to the majors, you don't hit like Olivo did in the minors, heck, you don't even get noticed in a camp, if at every level you hit .200 against righties. He's obviously had a hard time developing patience in the ML. Last year he just couldn't resist that junk low and away from a rhp. But he was more patient in the minors, and if he can develop that in the ML his numbers will improve. Almost 1/3 of his outs against righties is on K's. But his aggregate K/BB ratio is much worse now (about 4/1) than in the minors (about 1.5/1 in his last couple years). Moreover, his patience in the minors improved over time, which shows that he has been able to improve that aspect of his game, unlike many other players (Borchard, eg).

Now I did not say "everyone could adjust", and maybe he won't. However, IMHO minor league stats are useful indicators. On the other hand, using one (rookie) season as a long history seems pretty bizarre.
i tried to find his splits for the minors and couldn't. can you tell me where i might get them?

also it wasn't just for one season. it was for this year and last year.

hawkjt
06-30-2004, 11:51 AM
I loved Mo and it pained me to see him go. He showed much more discipline at the plate this year and was over .300 for most of the year. He had a nice hit against a righthander(maddux) on sunday. If he contiues to improve at this pace he will be a major offensive force for years with his power and speed. However, I was disapointed in his ball - handling this year. He dropped a ton of balls behind the plate this year. Maybe that was a minor glitch but his defense should have improved. He will be good but we are going for it and pitching still rules in Sept and october.

mendozaln
06-30-2004, 12:01 PM
i tried to find his splits for the minors and couldn't. can you tell me where i might get them?

also it wasn't just for one season. it was for this year and last year.
I don't have the splits, that's why I just used the overall numbers, especially the K numbers. Randar might know them. (As far as I can tell, they're only available in the once-a-year compendiums, not online. I think Baseball America prints up a collection of minor league stats like this.)

You said he can't hit righties (now) and never could (in the past). I was only arguing the second part. I guess you can consider earlier this season as the past, too, but I usually think of that as current production.

idseer
06-30-2004, 06:12 PM
I don't have the splits, that's why I just used the overall numbers, especially the K numbers. Randar might know them. (As far as I can tell, they're only available in the once-a-year compendiums, not online. I think Baseball America prints up a collection of minor league stats like this.)

You said he can't hit righties (now) and never could (in the past). I was only arguing the second part. I guess you can consider earlier this season as the past, too, but I usually think of that as current production.
by 'never could' i mean in his major league career. if someone can prove to me he hit righties just fine in the minors then you will have a decent point. if not, then i will feel safe in assuming he has always had trouble with them and will be quite surprised if he suddenly starts hittting them well. if i'm right, then everyone predicting all these great offensive things from miguel are just whistling in the dark.
bet i never see that proof tho. :smile:

Daver
06-30-2004, 06:15 PM
by 'never could' i mean in his major league career. if someone can prove to me he hit righties just fine in the minors then you will have a decent point. if not, then i will feel safe in assuming he has always had trouble with them and will be quite surprised if he suddenly starts hittting them well. if i'm right, then everyone predicting all these great offensive things from miguel are just whistling in the dark.
bet i never see that proof tho. :smile:
If you want the proof look up his minor league splits. The answer is out there.

idseer
06-30-2004, 06:29 PM
If you want the proof look up his minor league splits. The answer is out there.
i have found his minor league numbers ... but no splits, daver.

i'll keep looking tho.

idseer
06-30-2004, 09:12 PM
He didn't have those decisive splits in the minor leagues. Oh well. I'm not going to beat my head against this wall.
you know that or just throwing more garbage around?
i've looked and can't find any minor league splits.

Daver
06-30-2004, 09:19 PM
you know that or just throwing more garbage around?
i've looked and can't find any minor league splits.
You may have to search the archives at BA, Randar is correct on his splits though.

idseer
06-30-2004, 09:53 PM
You may have to search the archives at BA, Randar is correct on his splits though.
if you KNOW that ... why can't you show me? and what's BA?

Daver
06-30-2004, 10:10 PM
if you KNOW that ... why can't you show me? and what's BA?
BA is Baseball America.


I have them on paper, kind of hard to link my filing cabinet.

idseer
06-30-2004, 10:21 PM
BA is Baseball America.


I have them on paper, kind of hard to link my filing cabinet.
lol ok thanks :)

doublem23
06-30-2004, 10:26 PM
Catcher/SS/CF are the most valuable positions on the field. You keep any defensive studs from those positions. Offense is a bonus/icing on the cake.
I guarantee you, any team that has Gold Glove winners at C, SS, and CF that can't hit won't win anything in the American League.

Plus, Starting pitching is more important than any position player, anyway, so that point is moot. It's not like KW brought in Edgar Martinez.