PDA

View Full Version : Gammons- Ordonez for Jones


Jurr
06-28-2004, 04:15 PM
"There are rumors that Ordonez may be traded this week to Atlanta for Andruw Jones. That would get the Braves out from underneath the last three years of Jones' contract which runs through 2007. Ordonez is still a great player and will be one of the most important players on the market this winter. Whether or not he gets traded remains to be seen, but Ken Williams did say last night that he's working on another major trade. "

soltrain21
06-28-2004, 04:19 PM
It can't be straight up, atleast I hope not.

itsnotrequired
06-28-2004, 04:21 PM
Straight-up would be horrible.

pearso66
06-28-2004, 04:21 PM
Maybe it will be Andruw jones, Russ Ortiz and Johnny Estrada for Maggs and Rauch

gobears1987
06-28-2004, 04:24 PM
The major trade being worked on would be for a catcher.

Kadafi311
06-28-2004, 04:28 PM
"...Ken Williams did say last night that he's working on another major trade. "
Great news! Although I'd really hate to lose Maggs, as he is a pretty major impact player, I do like it when KW starts going ape-**** :D: Exciting stuff.

Hangar18
06-28-2004, 04:29 PM
Andruw Jones has "lost a step, Put on a lot of weight, and his swing has slowed down" "Hes definitely NOT the Jones of a couple yrs ago and now Atlanta is trying DESPERATELY to unload him"
This would go down as one of the WORST trades in SOX history. Russ Ortiz
has a HIGH ERA .....and thats in the NATIONAL LEAGUE. That would SURELY
balloon even higher in the American League. Atlanta knows the SOX are suckers, and are CHEAP. Theyre trying to DUMP Russ O. on the SOX and FORCING the SOX to also take JONES in exchange. Hmmmmmmmm
AllStar, Hot Hitting, RF'er with power, for a now bad hitting, SLOWER (Already has hit into 15dp's, An Olivo-less SOX lineup would get EVEN SLOWER with Konerko, Thomas, Crede and Jones regularly hitting into 6-4-3's)
suspect defensively. This trade is RIDICULOUS if it goes down.
WE MUST KEEP MAGGS.

Dadawg_77
06-28-2004, 04:29 PM
If Kenny does that move, well hopefully the deal would include at least one if not a couple, strong pitchers like Smoltz, Ortiz, Wright or Cruz. Jones is having a bad year at the plate and isn't Mags even when at the top of his game and owed a lot of money. If the Sox trade Mags and get a pitcher back, I would love to see them some how work Drew instead of Jones.

How that deal would work with our lineup would be fun to watch. Jones would be the CF, so Rowand, Perez, Gload in right. Harris would either move back to second or become an util man, Uribe would either stay at second or become an util man.

Tragg
06-28-2004, 04:29 PM
"By the way, I would be careful throwing "Andruw Jones" and "Hall of Fame" in the same sentence"

The most accurate words ever spoken by Gammons.

Please don't, KW- this guy has been getting worse.


The Braves announcers- particularly Simpson, Carey and Sutton- are hype artists. You listen to them, you think every player on the Braves is a future hall of famer.

Hangar18
06-28-2004, 04:31 PM
Id rather have CHIPPER. HE could then play the outfield AND 3B

Dadawg_77
06-28-2004, 04:32 PM
The major trade being worked on would be for a catcher.
I Rod? Tigers would give him up for prospects and I Rod may liked to be re united with Ozzie. His going to Detroit seemed a compete or bait one when it happened.

jabrch
06-28-2004, 04:33 PM
Andruw Jones has "lost a step, Put on a lot of weight, and his swing has slowed down" "Hes definitely NOT the Jones of a couple yrs ago and now Atlanta is trying DESPERATELY to unload him"
This would go down as one of the WORST trades in SOX history. Russ Ortiz
has a HIGH ERA .....and thats in the NATIONAL LEAGUE. That would SURELY
balloon even higher in the American League. Atlanta knows the SOX are suckers, and are CHEAP. Theyre trying to DUMP Russ O. on the SOX and FORCING the SOX to also take JONES in exchange. Hmmmmmmmm
AllStar, Hot Hitting, RF'er with power, for a now bad hitting, SLOWER (Already has hit into 15dp's, An Olivo-less SOX lineup would get EVEN SLOWER with Konerko, Thomas, Crede and Jones regularly hitting into 6-4-3's)
suspect defensively. This trade is RIDICULOUS if it goes down.
WE MUST KEEP MAGGS.

Is there a method to how you chose to capitalize words?

Baby Fisk
06-28-2004, 04:33 PM
I Rod? Tigers would give him up for prospects and I Rod may liked to be re united with Ozzie. His going to Detroit seemed a compete or bait one when it happened.
I-Rod would be a stunning coup, but would cost us huge. Is this even thinkable? :o:

OG4LIFE
06-28-2004, 04:34 PM
This would be a terrible move. Over the next 3 years, Jones is to be paid an average of 15 MILLION (final year is close to 20 mil i believe). For a below average hitter who is a strikeout machine, who has gotten fat over the last two years and cant play center or steal bases like he used to, it would be a dumb*** move to pay a guy like this more than 5 mil a year.

i dont get why we would be willing to take on a huge contract like that for someone who isnt worth it, but let ordonez walk when he is close to worth 15 mil a year. let alone how much of a fan favorite ordonez is. in fact, just for salary considerations and the fact that jones is marginally an above average center fielder, i dont think we should have anything to do with him.


OG4LIFE!!

Randar68
06-28-2004, 04:35 PM
The major trade being worked on would be for a catcher.
That basically leaves the Jason Kendall possibility, considering he's the only major-deal type of catcher known to be available at the moment.

Again, I wouldn't mind a deal with Atlanta if it meant getting Estrada, but I'm not too thrilled with Ortiz or Jones...

Dadawg_77
06-28-2004, 04:36 PM
I-Rod would be a stunning coup, but would cost us huge. Is this even thinkable? :o:
Thinkable? Yes, we just gave up our best prospect so why not sell the rest of the farm. If the Sox are going for broke, might as well push all the chips into the pot. The Tigers could use anything and everything so no one area they would be looking at.

Kadafi311
06-28-2004, 04:36 PM
Andruw Jones:

1997
.231 / .329 / .416

1998
.271 / .321 / .515

1999
.275 / .365 / .483

2000
.303 / .366 / .541

2001
.251 / .312 / .461

2002
.264 / .366 / .513

2003
.277 / .338 / .513

2004
.243 / .333 / .470

Hardly worth 12.5M per over the next three years IMO.

Hangar18
06-28-2004, 04:38 PM
KW better not make this trade. He and Uncle Jerry deserve a SLAP
in the face for the Garcia "trade". Had we gone out and GOTTEN a pitcher
when we lost COLON, they wouldnt be getting significantly SLOWER by Trading the Future and Losing Miguel Olivo. This trade will slowly hurt us in the long run, but we can OFFSET our offseason FOOLISHNESS by Signing Garcia LongTerm.

Dadawg_77
06-28-2004, 04:38 PM
That basically leaves the Jason Kendall possibility, considering he's the only major-deal type of catcher known to be available at the moment.

Again, I wouldn't mind a deal with Atlanta if it meant getting Estrada, but I'm not too thrilled with Ortiz or Jones...
Kendall would be bad move unless Pitt picks up most of that contract. He will be paid 9.5 million next year, I Rod 8 million.

Baby Fisk
06-28-2004, 04:40 PM
A definite anti-Andruw sentiment is forming here.

Hangar18
06-28-2004, 04:41 PM
Andruw Jones:

1997
.231 / .329 / .416

1998
.271 / .321 / .515

1999
.275 / .365 / .483

2000
.303 / .366 / .541

2001
.251 / .312 / .461

2002
.264 / .366 / .513

2003
.277 / .338 / .513

2004
.243 / .333 / .470

Hardly worth 12.5M per over the next three years IMO.
POST OF THE WEEK. When teams are Clamoring for YOUR PLAYERS,
you dont let them Leave them and trade for WORSE players. Rule of THumb.
Thats chapter 7 of "Hangars building a winning organization"

Tragg
06-28-2004, 04:41 PM
I wouldn't waste time, money or players on a catcher. They cost way too much for what you get. It's not like we were getting huge offensive production from Olivo.

We need pitching and bullpen help more. An a left-handed hitter.

DaveIsHere
06-28-2004, 04:41 PM
DOn't get rid of Maggs at least not for Jones




Maybe he would turn around here, but if we are going to pay him that kind of money might as well give it to Maggs

Baby Fisk
06-28-2004, 04:43 PM
Thinkable? Yes, we just gave up our best prospect so why not sell the rest of the farm. If the Sox are going for broke, might as well push all the chips into the pot. The Tigers could use anything and everything so no one area they would be looking at.I think it's well high time we DO go for broke for a change. Isn't everyone sick of perpetually being 2nd or 3rd, always "3 to 5" years away from the WS? I say hell yeah let's go for broke.

If the Yankees sweep us in the first round, you can tell us all you told us so. :cool:

TomParrish79
06-28-2004, 04:44 PM
It would really surprise me if the sox are involved in another huge trade. I think Kenny will make some smaller moves, and then we will be done with our wheelin and dealin.

Mickster
06-28-2004, 04:45 PM
KW better not make this trade. He and Uncle Jerry deserve a SLAP
in the face for the Garcia "trade". Had we gone out and GOTTEN a pitcher
when we lost COLON, they wouldnt be getting significantly SLOWER by Trading the Future and Losing Miguel Olivo. This trade will slowly hurt us in the long run, but we can OFFSET our offseason FOOLISHNESS by Signing Garcia LongTerm.Sorry Hangar. It is well known that had we signed Colon, Maggs would have been gone. Plain and simple. Who did you want since Colon signed that albatros of a contract with Anaheim? Ponson? Yeah, you would not be here whinning about Ponson making 3yr/$21M for his stats now would you?

How many pennants have we won in the last 80 years? How many? Yet we all sit here and talk about the future like we'll contend for the next 10 years. People have to realize that there are teams in our division (see Tribe) that will be young and strong for years to come. Would you give up 10 years of .500 ball to have 2 WS titles sandwiched between 7 crappy years ala Florida Marlins? I sure would. We're making a run for it. Sit back and enjoy it. Worry about the future or lack thereof when this season ends........

That being said, I DO NOT support Maggs for Jones. Keep Maggs this year and use him for the run. If we resign him, fine. If not, 2 picks....

harwar
06-28-2004, 04:46 PM
Another bad thing about Jones besides his weight gain,bad hitting,bad knees,oad so forth is the fact that he refuses to play deep.He and Cox used to go round and round about that.
If he tries playing shallow at the cell with the way the ball is carrying there now,he'll spend an awful lot of time chasing balls.

gobears1987
06-28-2004, 04:47 PM
If we get A Jones the Sox will suck, hell I'd rather have Aaron Rowand (and that's saying alot)

Baby Fisk
06-28-2004, 04:48 PM
Sorry Hangar. It is well known that had we signed Colon, Maggs would have been gone. Plain and simple. Who did you want since Colon signed that albatros of a contract with Anaheim? Ponson? Yeah, you would not be here whinning about Ponson making 3yr/$21M for his stats now would you?

How many pennants have we won in the last 80 years? How many? Yet we all sit here and talk about the future like we'll contend for the next 10 years. People have to realize that there are teams in our division (see Tribe) that will be young and strong for years to come. Would you give up 10 years of .500 ball to have 2 WS titles sandwiched between 7 crappy years ala Florida Marlins? I sure would. We're making a run for it. Sit back and enjoy it. Worry about the future or lack thereof when this season ends........
Correct, correct, correct, and correct! :nod:

mantis1212
06-28-2004, 04:49 PM
I Rod? Tigers would give him up for prospects and I Rod may liked to be re united with Ozzie. His going to Detroit seemed a compete or bait one when it happened.
Wow. I would be absolutely blown away. Just for fun, who would the tigers take? Borchard, Rauch, and Diaz?

rdivaldi
06-28-2004, 04:50 PM
KW better not make this trade. He and Uncle Jerry deserve a SLAP
in the face for the Garcia "trade". Had we gone out and GOTTEN a pitcher
when we lost COLON, they wouldnt be getting significantly SLOWER by Trading the Future and Losing Miguel Olivo. This trade will slowly hurt us in the long run, but we can OFFSET our offseason FOOLISHNESS by Signing Garcia LongTerm.
Yeah Hangar, I hate to pile on, but this is a real bad argument. There was no one out there for us to get when we lost Colon, except Ponson (shudder).

Saying we traded the FUTURE is quite a stretch as well.

Chisox_cali
06-28-2004, 05:09 PM
Andruw Jones has "lost a step, Put on a lot of weight, and his swing has slowed down" "Hes definitely NOT the Jones of a couple yrs ago and now Atlanta is trying DESPERATELY to unload him"
This would go down as one of the WORST trades in SOX history. Russ Ortiz
has a HIGH ERA .....and thats in the NATIONAL LEAGUE. That would SURELY
balloon even higher in the American League. Atlanta knows the SOX are suckers, and are CHEAP. Theyre trying to DUMP Russ O. on the SOX and FORCING the SOX to also take JONES in exchange. Hmmmmmmmm
AllStar, Hot Hitting, RF'er with power, for a now bad hitting, SLOWER (Already has hit into 15dp's, An Olivo-less SOX lineup would get EVEN SLOWER with Konerko, Thomas, Crede and Jones regularly hitting into 6-4-3's)
suspect defensively. This trade is RIDICULOUS if it goes down.
WE MUST KEEP MAGGS.
Sorry, I know that yelling from the mountain top about the Sox Cheapness is your "thing", but how would taking on Jones' $39 contract be cheap? Never mind what caliber of player he is now, I'm just talking about the pure money aspect and payroll issue.

doublem23
06-28-2004, 05:11 PM
Are these the same people who noted that Freddy Garcia was going to end up in New York? :rolleyes:

rmusacch
06-28-2004, 05:14 PM
I Rod? Tigers would give him up for prospects and I Rod may liked to be re united with Ozzie. His going to Detroit seemed a compete or bait one when it happened.

The Tigers are not going to trade him to a team within the division. Plus his agent is Boras.

longshot7
06-28-2004, 05:15 PM
I'm not for this deal, RIGHT NOW.

but I don't think Jones is as bad as people are making him out to be. His average isn't great, but his hrs and rbis are pretty respectable. 36 hrs and 116 rbis last year. not bad. if you factor in his defense... it might be a wash.

Still, trading Maggs has got to be a last resort. Sign him, or keep him and let him walk at the end of the year. The PR hit is not worth it.

btw - the Tigers are not trading IRod. they just signed him!

Dadawg_77
06-28-2004, 05:18 PM
The Tigers are not going to trade him to a team within the division. Plus his agent is Boras.
He won't be a free agent next year and the Sox wouldn't look to re-do a deal, so the Boras factor would be small. If the Tigers get the best offer from the Sox, they might take it.

pinwheels3530
06-28-2004, 05:21 PM
Andruw Jones has "lost a step, Put on a lot of weight, and his swing has slowed down" "Hes definitely NOT the Jones of a couple yrs ago and now Atlanta is trying DESPERATELY to unload him"
This would go down as one of the WORST trades in SOX history. Russ Ortiz
has a HIGH ERA .....and thats in the NATIONAL LEAGUE. That would SURELY
balloon even higher in the American League. Atlanta knows the SOX are suckers, and are CHEAP. Theyre trying to DUMP Russ O. on the SOX and FORCING the SOX to also take JONES in exchange. Hmmmmmmmm
AllStar, Hot Hitting, RF'er with power, for a now bad hitting, SLOWER (Already has hit into 15dp's, An Olivo-less SOX lineup would get EVEN SLOWER with Konerko, Thomas, Crede and Jones regularly hitting into 6-4-3's)
suspect defensively. This trade is RIDICULOUS if it goes down.
WE MUST KEEP MAGGS.
I agree 100% WE HAVE TO KEEP MAGGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jabrch
06-28-2004, 05:29 PM
It would really surprise me if the sox are involved in another huge trade. I think Kenny will make some smaller moves, and then we will be done with our wheelin and dealin.
We had money to spare in the budget before this deal. We didn't take on too much in this deal. There is still money to spare. Attendance has been good. I would be shocked if KW didn't have something else big - likely even bigger than this, up his sleeve.

Blueprint1
06-28-2004, 05:32 PM
I hate Andrew Jones. I hope this trade does not happen. I wish we would just resign Maggs

Iguana775
06-28-2004, 05:33 PM
I Rod? Tigers would give him up for prospects and I Rod may liked to be re united with Ozzie. His going to Detroit seemed a compete or bait one when it happened.
I would lose control of my bowel movements if that happened!!! :)

(wow, gross visual...)

OfficerKarkovice
06-28-2004, 05:56 PM
Andruw Jones is getting a worse rap than he deserves here. Regardless of whether he's lost a step or not (which is arguable) he is still one of the top two defensive center fielders in the majors...along with our buddy Torri Hunter. He he had 36 HR and 116 RBI last year...and lest we not forget that speaking of losing a step Jones is 3 years YOUNGER than Maggs (27 vs. 30). Let's look at their power numbers since 2000:

2000:
Maggs 32 HR - 126 RBI
Jones 36 HR - 104 RBI

2001:
Maggs 31 HR - 113 RBI
Jones 34 HR - 104 RBI

2002:
Maggs 38 HR - 135 RBI
Jones 35 HR - 94 RBI

2003:
Maggs 29 HR - 99 RBI
Jones 36 HR - 116 RBI

Granted Jones has hit for a lesser average than Ordonez but I don't see where you get the idea that Maggs is so far superior to Jones...especially considering that Maggs was hitting cleanup in a much better lineup giving him many more RBI opportunities. Throwing in the fact that Jones can drastically change games defensively, IMHO Andruw Jones, not Ordonez (as much as I like the guy) is the better player.

If I'm KW I call up Atlanta today and offer them:

Maggs
Diaz
Prospect

for

Jones
Ortiz
Estrada

I don't know if there is any way ATL does this with Estrada in the deal but it'd be worth a shot.

JoseCanseco6969
06-28-2004, 05:57 PM
Sorry Hangar. It is well known that had we signed Colon, Maggs would have been gone. Plain and simple. Who did you want since Colon signed that albatros of a contract with Anaheim? Ponson? Yeah, you would not be here whinning about Ponson making 3yr/$21M for his stats now would you?

How many pennants have we won in the last 80 years? How many? Yet we all sit here and talk about the future like we'll contend for the next 10 years. People have to realize that there are teams in our division (see Tribe) that will be young and strong for years to come. Would you give up 10 years of .500 ball to have 2 WS titles sandwiched between 7 crappy years ala Florida Marlins? I sure would. We're making a run for it. Sit back and enjoy it. Worry about the future or lack thereof when this season ends........

That being said, I DO NOT support Maggs for Jones. Keep Maggs this year and use him for the run. If we resign him, fine. If not, 2 picks....
POST OF THE SEASON! Very well said.

jabrch
06-28-2004, 06:01 PM
Andruw Jones is getting a worse rap than he deserves here. Regardless of whether he's lost a step or not (which is arguable) he is still one of the top two defensive center fielders in the majors...along with our buddy Torri Hunter. He he had 36 HR and 116 RBI last year...and lest we not forget that speaking of losing a step Jones is 3 years YOUNGER than Maggs (27 vs. 30). Let's look at their power numbers since 2000:

2000:
Maggs 32 HR - 126 RBI
Jones 36 HR - 104 RBI

2001:
Maggs 31 HR - 113 RBI
Jones 34 HR - 104 RBI

2002:
Maggs 38 HR - 135 RBI
Jones 35 HR - 94 RBI

2003:
Maggs 29 HR - 99 RBI
Jones 36 HR - 116 RBI

Granted Jones has hit for a lesser average than Ordonez but I don't see where you get the idea that Maggs is so far superior to Jones...especially considering that Maggs was hitting cleanup in a much better lineup giving him many more RBI opportunities. Throwing in the fact that Jones can drastically change games defensively, IMHO Andruw Jones, not Ordonez (as much as I like the guy) is the better player.

If I'm KW I call up Atlanta today and offer them:

Maggs
Diaz
Prospect

for

Jones
Ortiz
Estrada

I don't know if there is any way ATL does this with Estrada in the deal but it'd be worth a shot.

Very well said. I think there is a lot of love around here for Magglio. He has earned it during his time here. However, he is the one who is choosing not to stay by not signing a contract. If that's the route he chooses to go, we should and will trade him. If we can get the best defensive cf in the game (only 27 years old) a terrific young catcher, and a possible 5th starter for Ordonez, I am all for it!

Randar68
06-28-2004, 06:02 PM
Kendall would be bad move unless Pitt picks up most of that contract. He will be paid 9.5 million next year, I Rod 8 million.
Ken Rosenthal, aka "Captain Obvious", is that you? :D:

OBVIOUSLY Pittsburg would have to pick up a significant portion of the contract for ANY of this to make sense, but if any major deal is to be had out there involving a catcher, PLEASE tell me who it is, then.

Tragg
06-28-2004, 06:05 PM
If I'm KW I call up Atlanta today and offer them:

Maggs
Diaz
Prospect

for

Jones
Ortiz
Estrada

I don't know if there is any way ATL does this with Estrada in the deal but it'd be worth a shot.
That is at least interesting. Is Atlanta stacked at catcher (they just let Lopez go).? Otherwise, why would they want to give up a cheap quality young catcher when getting out of contracts is what they are trying to do

Randar68
06-28-2004, 06:12 PM
That is at least interesting. Is Atlanta stacked at catcher (they just let Lopez go).? Otherwise, why would they want to give up a cheap quality young catcher when getting out of contracts is what they are trying to do
The Sox would be taking the long-term money from the Braves and Maggs being gone at the end of the year would basically give the Braves 2 draft picks and a TON of money to use over the next several years. In order to entice a team to do that, much like a rent-a-player trade where the team trading away the star eats the contract, the team trying to save the $$$ has to give up some talent/prospects to accomplish that feat.

CWSGuy406
06-28-2004, 06:16 PM
Since we're playing armchair GM, let me join in the fun:

If I am Kenny Williams, I go to the Atlanta GM and say:

"Look - Andruw Jones is a solid player, but tell me about JD Drew."

And put an offer of Maggs/Rauch for Drew/Estrada/Cruz.

JW - what do you think of that deal, DD77? I think this team improves our team, strengthens us at three positions, and could really put us over the top. I'm a little biased because I'm a pretty big fan of JD Drew, but what do you guys think?

Tragg
06-28-2004, 06:17 PM
The Sox would be taking the long-term money from the Braves and Maggs being gone at the end of the year would basically give the Braves 2 draft picks and a TON of money to use over the next several years. In order to entice a team to do that, much like a rent-a-player trade where the team trading away the star eats the contract, the team trying to save the $$$ has to give up some talent/prospects to accomplish that feat.True- one would hope so.
But while we are willing to make trades, "value" isn't something I'd ascribe to the major trades we have made. The "extra" player rarely seems to come from the other team.

jabrch
06-28-2004, 06:18 PM
Since we're playing armchair GM, let me join in the fun:

If I am Kenny Williams, I go to the Atlanta GM and say:

"Look - Andruw Jones is a solid player, but tell me about JD Drew."

And put an offer of Maggs/Rauch for Drew/Estrada/Cruz.

JW - what do you think of that deal, DD77? I think this team improves our team, strengthens us at three positions, and could really put us over the top. I'm a little biased because I'm a pretty big fan of JD Drew, but what do you guys think?

Dew is a FA after this season. I don't think Atlanta is going to do this.

depy48
06-28-2004, 06:38 PM
i'm more comfortable in forgetting about atlanta, letting the maggs issue play itself out, and platooning rowand and timo in center...
i really dont think that ortiz/jones would improve take this team to a level where maggs cant, if anything maggs can this team a level well beyond any team with jones

habibharu
06-28-2004, 06:41 PM
why wouldnt you want to do this trade? you get a quality pitcher in ortiz, and a very good OF in jones. and IMO id rather take jones than maggs since jones hasnt even reached is prime yet and is the premeir CF in baseball. and he only makes about 12 mil per year. maggs will probably make 14 or 15 per.

SS_Hitmen
06-28-2004, 06:51 PM
KW better not make this trade. He and Uncle Jerry deserve a SLAP
in the face for the Garcia "trade". Had we gone out and GOTTEN a pitcher
when we lost COLON, they wouldnt be getting significantly SLOWER by Trading the Future and Losing Miguel Olivo. This trade will slowly hurt us in the long run, but we can OFFSET our offseason FOOLISHNESS by Signing Garcia LongTerm.

I really despise losing Olivo, but what's done is done. What is the status of Jaime Burke? Hasn't he been producing when given the chance? Why would we even consider using Ben Davis with him (Burke) waiting in the wings?

habibharu
06-28-2004, 06:52 PM
I really despise losing Olivo, but what's done is done. What is the status of Jaime Burke? Hasn't he been producing when given the chance? Why would we even consider using Ben Davis with him (Burke) waiting in the wings? what do you mean waiting in the wings? burkes not a prospect, he's like 32

SS_Hitmen
06-28-2004, 06:59 PM
what do you mean waiting in the wings? burkes not a prospect, he's like 32
Right on, I wasn't quite sure what was up with Burke....but he has been producing of late....are you sure he's that old?

habibharu
06-28-2004, 07:00 PM
Right on, I wasn't quite sure what was up with Burke....but he has been producing of late....are you sure he's that old? yeah something like that

Randar68
06-28-2004, 07:00 PM
Right on, I wasn't quite sure what was up with Burke....but he has been producing of late....are you sure he's that old?
Yes, he's that old, and no, he's not a prospect or anyone to be conted on for anything but emergency C-duties. Davis isn't much of a hitter either though. Sox have got to be shopping for a C out there...

SS_Hitmen
06-28-2004, 07:09 PM
Yes, he's that old, and no, he's not a prospect or anyone to be conted on for anything but emergency C-duties. Davis isn't much of a hitter either though. Sox have got to be shopping for a C out there...
If I were KW I just don't know how much I would offer for the catchers available right now--couldn't we just accept that our C position is weak--and fill other holes (not that I can really think of any others) By the way what do you think the odds of Olivo coming back are (al la Sandy)?

Randar68
06-28-2004, 07:11 PM
By the way what do you think the odds of Olivo coming back are (al la Sandy)?
That's a long ways off from even being a possibility. I love Olivo, but who knows what any of the situations will be at that time?

There aren't a ton of catchers available, but I'd take a good defensive Catcher that drew walks and worked the count. Kendall is the high end of the spectrum althogh he's not terrific behind the plate defensively...

Still, unless you are going to pack Sandy's knees in dry ice and cryogenically unfreeze them right before the playoffs, they need to shore-up that position soon, IMO.

SS_Hitmen
06-28-2004, 07:18 PM
Maybe we could just ask Fisk to come on back then, he still looks in pretty good shape. Seriously there doesn't look like theres many good options available, most are either to expensive (Kendall) or deteriorating (Johnson) or unrealistic (IROD).

Soxfest
06-28-2004, 07:43 PM
Maybe it will be Andruw jones, Russ Ortiz and Johnny Estrada for Maggs and Rauch

I say do the deal today that would be sweeeeeeeet.

habibharu
06-28-2004, 07:48 PM
i dont think that a maggs/rauch for ortiz/jones/estrada is out of the question if we add in marte who i have heard the braves like

poorme
06-28-2004, 07:52 PM
i dont think that a maggs/rauch for ortiz/jones/estrada is out of the question if we add in marte who i have heard the braves like
Holy Christmas, can you imagine our pen w/o marte?:o:

SEALgep
06-28-2004, 07:53 PM
i dont think that a maggs/rauch for ortiz/jones/estrada is out of the question if we add in marte who i have heard the braves likeWe're trying to add to our pen, not trade one of the best components of it. Besides, I just assume the trade doesn't go down. Jone's appears washed up to me, especially for that kind of money.

habibharu
06-28-2004, 07:53 PM
Holy Christmas, can you imagine our pen w/o marte?:o: :kelly "I can fill his spot!!"

SoxxoS
06-28-2004, 08:10 PM
I guess I am in the minority who would love to see Andruw Jones on the Southside. First off, his defense is breathtaking. He makes everyone in the outfield better...by a longshot. The ground he covers is just staggering. He is a career .843 OPS hitter...and he is in his prime with a guesstimate of 5 years left. Maggs has got .50 OPS on him, but I think Andruw's defense more than makes up for it.

And since we are going for it this year, we would also be getting Russ Ortiz who would give us arguably the best starting 5 in baseball (Second to the Cubs, although I hate to say it). I love Maggs, but I think Andruw Jones would benefit from a change in scenery, and Ortiz is solid. Bring it.

Tragg
06-28-2004, 08:14 PM
why wouldnt you want to do this trade? you get a quality pitcher in ortiz, and a very good OF in jones. and IMO id rather take jones than maggs since jones hasnt even reached is prime yet and is the premeir CF in baseball. and he only makes about 12 mil per year. maggs will probably make 14 or 15 per.

Maggs is a far better hitter- that's why I wouldn't take it.
As for reaching prime- looking at Jones' numbers, that may have happened as well- he's been heading downhill for a while.

TomParrish79
06-28-2004, 08:17 PM
I'll be the first to admit I dont like Andruw's lack of hustle. The kid could steal 35+ bases a year because he has speed, but he doesnt hustle and thats one of the problems I have with him.

That being said, other than Tori Hunter there isnt a better defensive centerfielder than Andruw, he reads the balls so well off the bat that he makes the hard plays look easy. I dont see how anyone can find fault in his defense.


I really dont know what to think about this trade, I love Maggs and dont wanna lose him, however I dont wanna see him walk at the end of the season and us not get anything for him.

Ahh hell the trade isnt gonna happen, so I dont know why we're all racking our brains on this anyway.

I just hope Freddy pitches well and we can give him run support. We are gonna need this kid to pitch good if we are gonna win the division.

OfficerKarkovice
06-28-2004, 08:26 PM
As for reaching prime- looking at Jones' numbers, that may have happened as well- he's been heading downhill for a while.
Again...

2000:
Maggs 32 HR - 126 RBI
Jones 36 HR - 104 RBI

2001:
Maggs 31 HR - 113 RBI
Jones 34 HR - 104 RBI

2002:
Maggs 38 HR - 135 RBI
Jones 35 HR - 94 RBI

2003:
Maggs 29 HR - 99 RBI
Jones 36 HR - 116 RBI

...downhill where???

StepsInSC
06-28-2004, 08:43 PM
We are one game out of first with the team that we've had since the beginning of the year (since Garcia has yet to play for us). Let's see what happens now that we have Garcia...there is no need to be impatient and make another move when we are obviously a better team now than we were yesterday.

Please KW hold off a bit on making another huge move. There's no reason to think we can't win with what we have now.

StepsInSC
06-28-2004, 08:46 PM
Again...

2000:
Maggs 32 HR - 126 RBI
Jones 36 HR - 104 RBI

2001:
Maggs 31 HR - 113 RBI
Jones 34 HR - 104 RBI

2002:
Maggs 38 HR - 135 RBI
Jones 35 HR - 94 RBI

2003:
Maggs 29 HR - 99 RBI
Jones 36 HR - 116 RBI

...downhill where???
You chose homeruns and RBIs...why? Are you insinuating that HRs and RBIs are the bottom line in judging a player?

TaylorStSox
06-28-2004, 08:48 PM
Again...

2000:
Maggs 32 HR - 126 RBI
Jones 36 HR - 104 RBI

2001:
Maggs 31 HR - 113 RBI
Jones 34 HR - 104 RBI

2002:
Maggs 38 HR - 135 RBI
Jones 35 HR - 94 RBI

2003:
Maggs 29 HR - 99 RBI
Jones 36 HR - 116 RBI

...downhill where???

Andruw Jones doesn't get paid to get on base. He gets paid to drive in runners. He does that well. He's having a down year. However, everyone on Atlanta is having a down year sans Estrada and Drew. Chipper is having the worst season of his career. He's a liability anywhere in the field. He's lost more than a step. He's getting old. His stroke looks horrible. He's injury prone. I've been a huge fan but his best years are probably behind him.

Let's not forget that he put up these numbers in a pitchers park.

He also gets paid to run down balls and throw people out. Hunter is Jones Lite.

CF > RF. Add that to the fact that he's cheaper than Maggs.

Being added to a team with a heavy Latino influence could potentially do wonders for his career.

I'd probably do it.

TaylorStSox
06-28-2004, 08:49 PM
You chose homeruns and RBIs...why? Are you insinuating that HRs and RBIs are the bottom line in judging a player?
RBI's are the most important stat for a guy that hits in the middle of the line up. Obviously, OBP. is more important for your 1,2,7-9 hitters.

MRKARNO
06-28-2004, 08:53 PM
RBI's are the most important stat for a guy that hits in the middle of the line up. Obviously, OBP. is more important for your 1,2,7-9 hitters.
RBI are an outgrowth of OBP, BA, and SLG%

Randar68
06-28-2004, 09:18 PM
RBI are an outgrowth of OBP, BA, and SLG%
I agree. It's amazing what a day or 2 can do. Olivo has gone from being a future all-star catcher and a great young exciting player to a platoon-partner bum, Reed is a disappointing minor league veteran bust of a former top prospect, and now Maggs has gone from must re-sign to expendable.

I haven't been able to convince myself that trading maggs for jones straight-up is a great idea, but man, any kind of combo deal along these lines filling some of our other holes would be probably push me...

Maggs is consistent, isn't streaky, dependably solid hitter. he's not going to win HR titles or steal 40 bases or win a gold glove. Jones has as much power plays gold glove defense (well, in the past) and is younger and cheaper than what they'll be able to sign Maggs for most likely...

Again, I'm glad I'm not KW...

bluestar
06-28-2004, 09:21 PM
What's in this hypothetical deal for Atlanta? Why do they want Maggs for the rest of this year? They are almost certainly not going to sign him to anything long term; they are looking to cut payroll, not add to it.

I suspect Atlanta just wants to dump Jones' contract and get a good outfielder in return for the rest of this season to keep the fans from thinking they are giving up. The Atlanta GM said yesterday he wouldn't make any move that would weaken the team, but I assume he meant for the remainder of this year.

Furthermore, if they think they may still have a shot at winning their division, why would they consider trading Ortiz? Ortiz isn't a Cy Young candidate, but his numbers aren't terrible, although he is definitely working in a pitcher's park.

TaylorStSox
06-28-2004, 09:23 PM
I agree. It's amazing what a day or 2 can do. Olivo has gone from being a future all-star catcher and a great young exciting player to a platoon-partner bum, Reed is a disappointing minor league veteran bust of a former top prospect, and now Maggs has gone from must re-sign to expendable.

I haven't been able to convince myself that trading maggs for jones straight-up is a great idea, but man, any kind of combo deal along these lines filling some of our other holes would be probably push me...

Maggs is consistent, isn't streaky, dependably solid hitter. he's not going to win HR titles or steal 40 bases or win a gold glove. Jones has as much power plays gold glove defense (well, in the past) and is younger and cheaper than what they'll be able to sign Maggs for most likely...

Again, I'm glad I'm not KW...
Right. How much of Jones have you seen this year? I've seen about 10 games. Not enough to really judge. Chipper's looking awful though. That's painfully obvious.

There are alot of factors that could go into Jones poor play. Nobody in Atlanta is really playing that well (sans Drew/Estrada). The Braves are really on a downward trend. They haven't been able to replace the pitching they've lost. The Braves aren't going anywhere. They were a playoff team last year, but not a good one. All of these things could factor into a general apathy. Which leads to poor play/weight gain etc. Maybe he needs new scenery?

Randar68
06-28-2004, 09:26 PM
What's in this hypothetical deal for Atlanta? Why do they want Maggs for the rest of this year? They are almost certainly not going to sign him to anything long term; they are looking to cut payroll, not add to it.

I suspect Atlanta just wants to dump Jones' contract and get a good outfielder in return for the rest of this season to keep the fans from thinking they are giving up. The Atlanta GM said yesterday he wouldn't make any move that would weaken the team, but I assume he meant for the remainder of this year.

Furthermore, if they think they may still have a shot at winning their division, why would they consider trading Ortiz? Ortiz isn't a Cy Young candidate, but his numbers aren't terrible, although he is definitely working in a pitcher's park.
Atlanta would be getting rid of a hefty long term contract, get some advanced prospect(s), and if they can't sign Maggs, they get 2 high draft picks. The Braves would basically turn an unsavory contract or 2 into a handful of prospects and a load of money to spend next year, possibly being able to sign Beltran?

Randar68
06-28-2004, 09:30 PM
Right. How much of Jones have you seen this year? I've seen about 10 games. Not enough to really judge. Chipper's looking awful though. That's painfully obvious.

There are alot of factors that could go into Jones poor play. Nobody in Atlanta is really playing that well (sans Drew/Estrada). The Braves are really on a downward trend. They haven't been able to replace the pitching they've lost. The Braves aren't going anywhere. They were a playoff team last year, but not a good one. All of these things could factor into a general apathy. Which leads to poor play/weight gain etc. Maybe he needs new scenery?I've only seen a handful of games, but given his history and age, i have no qualms about making a deal as long as expectations are founded in his past numbers. i see no reason why the motivation of an exciting clubhouse and new scenery couldn't help him get in better shape, but some guys do 'bloat' up when they start approaching 30 or so.

Basically, i'm lukewarm about it, but depending on the particulars of the money, prospects, other players involved (ortiz/estrada/etc), I could probabaly be convinced.

again, jones, when in shape, is a far superior defensive player and comes cheaper... both positives...

Lip Man 1
06-28-2004, 10:01 PM
Chipper has a very bad hamstring that according to The Sporting News is going to bother him for the rest of the season.
Lip

Hondo
06-28-2004, 10:03 PM
I'm going to pose this question again. I posed it yesterday with the caveat that I'm not being sarcastic, I'm geniunely drawing a blank.

I'm assuming with the Garcia trade it's a step in going for it this year.

When is the last time a team has traded away their best player midseason and won a world series??

A. Cavatica
06-28-2004, 10:10 PM
Please KW hold off a bit on making another huge move. There's no reason to think we can't win with what we have now.
Please KW, fill in the crater that is our catching position. Then you can sit back and enjoy the Garcia trade.

Daver
06-28-2004, 10:13 PM
Please KW, fill in the crater that is our catching position. Then you can sit back and enjoy the Garcia trade.
Gimme a break, this team made the playoffs with a catching tandem of Mark Johnson and Josh Paul.

MRKARNO
06-28-2004, 10:20 PM
Gimme a break, this team made the playoffs with a catching tandem of Mark Johnson and Josh Paul.
To be precise Mark Johnson (74 games), Josh Paul (34 games), Charles Johnson (43 games) and Brook Fordyce (40 Games), but outside of that quarter of the games in which we had Johnson, the catchers position was a joke that year.

OfficerKarkovice
06-28-2004, 10:30 PM
You chose homeruns and RBIs...why? Are you insinuating that HRs and RBIs are the bottom line in judging a player?
OK then pick a stat and you do the analysis. You guys act like this guy has fallen off the face of the earth and his career is over. He's going to hit homeruns, drive in runs, and I don't care what you say he's going to play the best defensive CF in the majors...just ask his pitchers. I think Andruw Jones is a more valuable asset than Maggs...but hey it's just one man's opinion.