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View Full Version : is kw going to aquire another catcher?


ScottyTheSoxFan
06-27-2004, 11:32 PM
obviously alomar, burke, and davis are not exactly an excellent catching trio. jason kendall is way overpaid and really not an option unless pittsburgh would pick up a VERY significant portion of his contract. who else is available? colorado is going to put charles johnson on the market. i dont know about bringing him back, he is hitting .254 with 10 homers, and half of that is at Coors. CJ is a good defensive catcher as well. but he did do good for the sox in 2000. he is making 9 million this year but colorado would probably pick up alot of that. does anybody know when cj's contract expires, because if it ended at the end of season, he would be cheaper to get. what do you all think? yay, nay, may(be)???

SoxFan76
06-27-2004, 11:36 PM
Well, Burke sure has made the most of his playing time. And Alomar is still very valuable even at his age. He is still such a great hitter, in that he knows how to get a runner over, and he doesn't strike out much. He also calls a great game from behind the plate.

Bear with me, I'm very depressed about Olivo being gone. I'm trying to think positive.

idseer
06-27-2004, 11:38 PM
Well, Burke sure has made the most of his playing time. And Alomar is still very valuable even at his age. He is still such a great hitter, in that he knows how to get a runner over, and he doesn't strike out much. He also calls a great game from behind the plate.

Bear with me, I'm very depressed about Olivo being gone. I'm trying to think positive.
poor old alomar doesn't have the legs OR arms of a catcher anymore. all that's left is the savvy.
we NEED a catcher.

doublem23
06-27-2004, 11:40 PM
I would rank catcher as now the #1 weakness for the Sox, both organizationally and now at the MLB level, too, so I assume KW will be dealing for some help behind the plate.

SoxxoS
06-27-2004, 11:42 PM
Maybe Burke can have a career year and we can worry about the catching position in the offseason.

DSpivack
06-27-2004, 11:42 PM
Off the top of my head, Charles Johnson and Brent Mayne seem most likely.

Any others?

ScottyTheSoxFan
06-27-2004, 11:45 PM
Off the top of my head, Charles Johnson and Brent Mayne seem most likely.

Any others?
there are really no other catchers on the market, nor does it seem like there will be any.

doublem23
06-27-2004, 11:45 PM
Off the top of my head, Charles Johnson and Brent Mayne seem most likely.

Any others?
You got to think KW is looking at Jason Kendall, but I would assume Pittsburgh would have to pick up some of his contract. Who knows?

ScottyTheSoxFan
06-27-2004, 11:49 PM
You got to think KW is looking at Jason Kendall, but I would assume Pittsburgh would have to pick up some of his contract. Who knows?
well it was posted that kendall is owed like 42 million still. i dont think there is anyway in hell they pickup that, and kendall is not worth 12 mill a year in 3 years or whatever.

doublem23
06-27-2004, 11:51 PM
well it was posted that kendall is owed like 42 million still. i dont think there is anyway in hell they pickup that, and kendall is not worth 12 mill a year in 3 years or whatever.
Depends... I've seen weirder things happen.

SoxxoS
06-27-2004, 11:53 PM
Kendall is a pipedream, that contract is untradeable. This isn't Billy Koch, here. There is A LOT left on that deal. I think it's 4 years 40 million...??? Something rediculous.

Anyway, how about our favorite trading buddies, the Expos?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6480


Charles Johnson if they pick up some of the remaining contract...
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5228

Greg Zaun?
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5427

Toby Hall would be a good option as well...
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6599

WinningUgly!
06-27-2004, 11:54 PM
does anybody know when cj's contract expires, because if it ended at the end of season, he would be cheaper to get. what do you all think? yay, nay, may(be)???Charles Johnson...
2004: $9.0M
2005: $9.0M
-Includes complete no-trade clause between 2001 and 2004
-If traded 2005 salary rises to $10.0M

WinningUgly!
06-27-2004, 11:57 PM
Jason Kendall...
2004: $8.0M
2005: $10.0M
2006: $11.0M
2007: $13.0M

-$0.5M each year deferred with interest
-Includes complete no-trade clause
-Possible $475K each year in award bonuses (added to next year's salary)

ScottyTheSoxFan
06-27-2004, 11:57 PM
Charles Johnson...
2004: $9.0M
2005: $9.0M
-Includes complete no-trade clause between 2001 and 2004
-If traded 2005 salary rises to $10.0M
thats alot next year for a guy who hasnt hit above .259 since he played with the sox in 2000.

Tragg
06-28-2004, 12:01 AM
Johnson would be silly- 9mill for a player with diminished skills- come on.


Kendall has a horrible contract situation.

Personally, I think that since really good catchers are generally so overpriced (because they are so rare) punt that position (find a Mark Johnson type on the cheap) and concentrate on areas where we can improve for a reasonable price- pitching, left handed stick. IF you can grab a catching prospect somehow, do it, realizing it's down the road.

Jjav829
06-28-2004, 12:05 AM
It's probably a pipe dream but I would like to see Brandon Inge in a Sox uniform. He isn't catching much in Detroit with Rodriguez there and has been moved around a lot. I don't know what his price would be as I guess the Mariners recently offered Gil Meche and were turned down. It's worth a look into though.

rmusacch
06-28-2004, 12:09 AM
It's probably a pipe dream but I would like to see Brandon Inge in a Sox uniform. He isn't catching much in Detroit with Rodriguez there and has been moved around a lot. I don't know what his price would be as I guess the Mariners recently offered Gil Meche and were turned down. It's worth a look into though.
I think that Inge just went on the DL.

Randar68
06-28-2004, 12:11 AM
I will try to comment fully on the deal tomorrow. Flat out, I think KW overpayed, in essence giving up his 2 TOP prospects in this deal. the only way it makes sense is if the Sox can sign him to a below market multi-year deal. He's far better than Todd Ritchie, but even with olivo's mental problems with calling a game, you can't give up on that kind of pure talent IMO. Reed is a whole other can of worms...

Anyways! Kenny has absolutely got to have a back-up catcher plan in the works because Burke, Alomar, and Davis, even if they are all healthy equals about 1 Olivo in terms of offense. davis is a good defensive catcher and a good game-caller, but damn...

:whiner: and :(: and :mad: and :D: and :gulp: all at one time...

ScottyTheSoxFan
06-28-2004, 12:11 AM
It's probably a pipe dream but I would like to see Brandon Inge in a Sox uniform. He isn't catching much in Detroit with Rodriguez there and has been moved around a lot. I don't know what his price would be as I guess the Mariners recently offered Gil Meche and were turned down. It's worth a look into though.
sounds like they still like him in motown.
from espn.com
With the exception of pitching, Brandon Inge (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6681) has been Mr. Everything for the Tigers thus far in 2004. He added to his ever-increasing resume June 24 when Inge hit leadoff for the first time since his freshman year of college, he told The Detroit Free Press. The 27-year-old third baseman has played four positions and batted in six different lineup spots. He continued his torrid pace against the Royals with three hits and a walk in a 12-3 victory. Inge entered the game hitting .356 (19-for-56) in his last 18 games to raise his season average to .305. Defensively, he played 38 straight games without an error until June 24. "Brandon is playing at a very high level, offensively and defensively," Trammell told the newspaper. "His third-base play has been phenomenal."

bluestar
06-28-2004, 12:14 AM
I think that Inge just went on the DL.
He did. He has a fractured knuckle from being hit by a pitch, but he is only expected to miss the minimum 15 days. I would be very surprised if Detroit was willing to trade him to the Sox, though.

samram
06-28-2004, 12:16 AM
How about Ramon Hernandez? He is on the DL now, but is expected back July 6th. I believe the Padres have a catcher near major league ready and may deem Ramon expendable. Zaun, as posted earlier, could be a possibility.

jabrch
06-28-2004, 12:19 AM
well it was posted that kendall is owed like 42 million still. i dont think there is anyway in hell they pickup that, and kendall is not worth 12 mill a year in 3 years or whatever.
Pitt was willing to pick up half of his remaining deal when they were talking to SD during the offseason. Kendall has a .322 average with a .391 OBP so far this season. If he came here, he could play C 4 days a week and DH once or twice a week. It surely is possible. Pitt picks up half the remaining deal, I might jump on it if I were KW.

jabrch
06-28-2004, 12:21 AM
I am surprised Randar - look at Olivo's stats and compare them to Davis. Actually, other than power, Olivo hasn't outhit Davis this year, much less Sandy. I don't think this deal was all that bad. It gave us the front/middle of the rotation starter that we desperately needed.


I will try to comment fully on the deal tomorrow. Flat out, I think KW overpayed, in essence giving up his 2 TOP prospects in this deal. the only way it makes sense is if the Sox can sign him to a below market multi-year deal. He's far better than Todd Ritchie, but even with olivo's mental problems with calling a game, you can't give up on that kind of pure talent IMO. Reed is a whole other can of worms...

Anyways! Kenny has absolutely got to have a back-up catcher plan in the works because Burke, Alomar, and Davis, even if they are all healthy equals about 1 Olivo in terms of offense. davis is a good defensive catcher and a good game-caller, but damn...

:whiner: and :(: and :mad: and :D: and :gulp: all at one time...

Jjav829
06-28-2004, 12:22 AM
I think that Inge just went on the DL.
He did. I kinda forgot to mention that in my post. But yeah we'd have to wait until he is off the DL.

I know Detroit hasn't soured on him. They're not just going to give him away. But I think he could probably be had if a team was willing to give them young players at a position that's more of a need. It's not likely as I said. Just throwing it out there.

samram
06-28-2004, 12:23 AM
Pitt was willing to pick up half of his remaining deal when they were talking to SD during the offseason. Kendall has a .322 average with a .391 OBP so far this season. If he came here, he could play C 4 days a week and DH once or twice a week. It surely is possible. Pitt picks up half the remaining deal, I might jump on it if I were KW.
It all depends nowdays. If they want any decent prospects, they have to pick up salary. On the other hand, they got nothing from the Cubs last year for half their roster. However, if they give up their franchise player, they have to get something back, so more than likely they would be picking up salary.

ScottyTheSoxFan
06-28-2004, 01:04 AM
on the plus side, kendall is hitting .321 this year and would fit pretty well in the 2 hole.

OurBitchinMinny
06-28-2004, 02:46 AM
Maybe we can ship davis to the twinkies for mauer? KW just has to take terry ryan out to drinks and get him hammered first.

AnkleSox
06-28-2004, 03:46 AM
I'm just hoping Burke's early success with the Sox isn't the same as Uribe's early success with the Sox.

mdep524
06-28-2004, 05:16 AM
on the plus side, kendall is hitting .321 this year and would fit pretty well in the 2 hole.This is exactly what I'm thinking. If Pittsburgh is willing to take on a sizeable portion of his contract (a realistic possibility), I think this would be a GREAT move for the Sox. I really liked Olivo and it is hard seeing him go right now, but put Kendall on this team and I'd be very happy.

dickallen15
06-28-2004, 05:34 AM
Pitt was willing to pick up half of his remaining deal when they were talking to SD during the offseason. Kendall has a .322 average with a .391 OBP so far this season. If he came here, he could play C 4 days a week and DH once or twice a week. It surely is possible. Pitt picks up half the remaining deal, I might jump on it if I were KW.
The Sox don't need someone to DH. We have the best DH in baseball.

soxtalker
06-28-2004, 08:29 AM
It is hard to know what KW is thinking. However, I wouldn't be surprised if there is NOT a plan to get another catcher. It may simply be that they've decided that they can go with Burke for now. The radio/TV voices have been very positive on him. And Sandy is clearly the first choice of many of the pitchers as well as the staff.

It isn't a trade that I would have made, but now we have to live with it. Garcia will be good for a few months -- better if we can sign him. But I think that we could be struggling with the hole at catcher for a long time.

harwar
06-28-2004, 08:41 AM
If Pittsburgh is willing to take on a sizeable portion of his contract (a realistic possibility), I think this would be a GREAT move for the Sox. I really liked Olivo and it is hard seeing him go right now, but put Kendall on this team and I'd be very happy.
Getting Kendall is one thing that would make me feel a little better about losing Olivo and who knows,the pirates were desperate to get rid of him last year which is why it took so long to trade Brian Giles.They were selling them(giles&kendall) as a package,but they fiinally gave up on that.
I guess it all depends on how Kendall fits into their future plans,both player-wise and financially.

akingamongstmen
06-28-2004, 09:58 AM
I don't believe it...we finally land a really good pitcher, and all anybody can do is whine about catchers. Look, I really liked Olivo, but you can't get a Freddy Garcia without giving something up in return. We'll be fine with the three guys that we've got (at least for the rest of the season). Jason Kendall isn't going to happen. Enough with the pipe dreams.

Philo-Sox-er
06-28-2004, 10:30 AM
I think the best options for a replacement catcher are:

1) Ramon Castro (Florida)
2) Toby Hall (Tampa)
3) J. Estrada (Atlanta if we make a Maggs deal with them)
4) J. Phelps (Toronto)

I know there are some other verteran guys out there, like Zaun, Mayne, etc., but I think we should get someone mor elong term since that is what we gave up. All of these players are comparatively low salary acquisitions too.

VenturaSoxFan23
06-28-2004, 10:33 AM
We're supposed to be thrilled the Sox made any type of deal. We have a team capable of making the playoffs right now. Why not go all the way while we still have the firepower? I wouldn't throw up a "For Sale" sign on our farm system for Jason Kendall, but we have expendable minor league talent for halfway decent players.
Catching is not exactly a high priority, but if you're really that hard-up for one, I know Kansas City is having a fire sale on anybody and everybody on their roster if you have a 3B worthy of starting in their line-up next year. Benito Santiago may not be the best choice available, but it gives you a solid veteran who can still get the job done behind the plate. (No, I'm not saying trade Crede, but I'm sure somewhere we can dig up a guy in the system.)
All we need is a few more days where the pitching and hitting work as one in the same game; then we can consider ourselves a serious threat for the pennant. I can't handle days where Schoenweis throws a 4-hitter yet we lose 4-1 because our offense took a day off.
We don't need big-time trades to get the Sox on the back page of the Sun-Times, just win the games and the rest will take care of itself. :cool:

mdep524
06-28-2004, 12:15 PM
I don't believe it...we finally land a really good pitcher, and all anybody can do is whine about catchers. Look, I really liked Olivo, but you can't get a Freddy Garcia without giving something up in return. We'll be fine with the three guys that we've got (at least for the rest of the season). Jason Kendall isn't going to happen. Enough with the pipe dreams.
I don't see how Jason Kendall is pipe dream. Pittsburgh is desperate to unload him, and have been for a long time, so they would be more than accomodating in picking up a huge chunk of his salary. When you get past his contract, he is a very solid catcher who would be a perfect fit on this team in the #2 hole.

It probably wouldn't cost the Sox more than a mid-range prospect or two, and maybe we could get the Pirates to throw Brian Meadows in as well for some bullpen help. Makes sense all the way around, and definitely not just a pipe dream.

Tragg
06-28-2004, 12:24 PM
I don't see how Jason Kendall is pipe dream. Pittsburgh is desperate to unload him, and have been for a long time, so they would be more than accomodating in picking up a huge chunk of his salary. When you get past his contract, he is a very solid catcher who would be a perfect fit on this team in the #2 hole.

It probably wouldn't cost the Sox more than a mid-range prospect or two, and maybe we could get the Pirates to throw Brian Meadows in as well for some bullpen help. Makes sense all the way around, and definitely not just a pipe dream.He should come free- his salary is ridiculous.
That's tying up too much money for someone who isn't that great.
Get a functional body and find a LF hitter and more pitching.

fuzzy_patters
06-28-2004, 12:31 PM
Although some have said Charles Johnson's numbers benefit from Coors Field, I looked them up, and he has hit better on the road. Of course, whether or not the Sox need or can afford him is a different discussion.

Johnson at home .244-5-12-.367-.463-.831

Johnson away .263-5-16-.352-.537-.889

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=5228

mrzerofan
06-28-2004, 01:01 PM
I think the best options for a replacement catcher are:

1) Ramon Castro (Florida)
2) Toby Hall (Tampa)
3) J. Estrada (Atlanta if we make a Maggs deal with them)
4) J. Phelps (Toronto)

I know there are some other verteran guys out there, like Zaun, Mayne, etc., but I think we should get someone mor elong term since that is what we gave up. All of these players are comparatively low salary acquisitions too.
I don't know because Castro has legal problems.

VenturaSoxFan23
06-28-2004, 01:03 PM
The Sox didn't want to resign him for $4M/yr. Why would they take a $9M contract now?

Flight #24
06-28-2004, 01:09 PM
The Sox didn't want to resign him for $4M/yr. Why would they take a $9M contract now?
Because he can take them to a WS with the rst of the guys we got, and IIRC, he's an FA after this year. Rather than locking into a multi-year deal, you pay 1 year for his services. Plus I bet Colorado eats some cash in any deal.

jabrch
06-28-2004, 01:15 PM
I think the best options for a replacement catcher are:

1) Ramon Castro (Florida)
2) Toby Hall (Tampa)
3) J. Estrada (Atlanta if we make a Maggs deal with them)
4) J. Phelps (Toronto)

I know there are some other verteran guys out there, like Zaun, Mayne, etc., but I think we should get someone mor elong term since that is what we gave up. All of these players are comparatively low salary acquisitions too.
Hall has been fairly mediocre. I wouldn't be too thrilled with him. Estrada would be awesome - but I don't see Atlanta trading him to us. They let Milwood go to get him - and let Javy Lopez go because of him. Phelps doesn't catch much anymore - does he?

I wouldnt mind Zaun for the rest of the year. Kendall would be my #1 target if we could get Pitt to eat enough of his deal.

Frater Perdurabo
06-28-2004, 01:20 PM
If Kenny is "going for the jugular," a trade for Kendall would be the best possible move. He would instantly make the catcher position on the Sox a position of strength. The fact that he is a contact hitter who hits to all fields also would make the #2 spot in the lineup a strength. In terms of batting average, Kendall produces now what I had hoped to eventually see from Reed.

The only thing about him that is a negative -- and that makes Kendall a deeppink pipedream -- is his contract. But if it is true that JR will increase payroll as attendance increases, then paying his contract will not be a problem. Adding Garcia made the Sox the favorites in the AL Central. Adding Garcia AND Kendall makes the Sox a legitimate threat for the World Series. Attendance and therefore revenues will skyrocket.

If adding Kendall is "Part 2" of Kenny's deals this season, then my concern over the loss of Reed and Olivo for the future would be eliminated, because Kendall replaces both Reed's and Olivo's potential with proven MLB experience that can help the Sox now and in the future.

Because Kendall would make the Sox better now and for the future, I would be willing to deal prospects to get Kendall on the Sox.

mdep524
06-28-2004, 01:47 PM
If Kenny is "going for the jugular," a trade for Kendall would be the best possible move. He would instantly make the catcher position on the Sox a position of strength. The fact that he is a contact hitter who hits to all fields also would make the #2 spot in the lineup a strength. In terms of batting average, Kendall produces now what I had hoped to eventually see from Reed.

The only thing about him that is a negative -- and that makes Kendall a deeppink pipedream -- is his contract. But if it is true that JR will increase payroll as attendance increases, then paying his contract will not be a problem. Adding Garcia made the Sox the favorites in the AL Central. Adding Garcia AND Kendall makes the Sox a legitimate threat for the World Series. Attendance and therefore revenues will skyrocket.

If adding Kendall is "Part 2" of Kenny's deals this season, then my concern over the loss of Reed and Olivo for the future would be eliminated, because Kendall replaces both Reed's and Olivo's potential with proven MLB experience that can help the Sox now and in the future.

Because Kendall would make the Sox better now and for the future, I would be willing to deal prospects to get Kendall on the Sox.
Good points. In a way, Kendall would replace BOTH Olivo AND Reed. The more I think about it the more I really like this potential move, but KW would have his work cut out for him making the money work out.

Frater Perdurabo
06-28-2004, 01:54 PM
Good points. In a way, Kendall would replace BOTH Olivo AND Reed. The more I think about it the more I really like this potential move, but KW would have his work cut out for him making the money work out.

From what I understand, the Pirates are desperate to trade Kendall's contract. If so, there are two possibilities:

One: The Sox assume all of Kendall's contract but don't have to give much up in return.

Two: The Pirates agree to pay some of Kendall's contract, but the Sox have to give up more talent in return.

The cash the Mariners sent back to the Sox, plus the money saved by dealing Koch to Florida, allow the Sox to afford Kendall this year. The certain increase in attendance and revenues this year and next year allow the Sox to pay him in 2005 and 2006.

What players would Pittsburgh want in return for Kendall? I have to assume that the Sox have what it takes, player-wise, to get such a deal done.

Tekijawa
06-28-2004, 01:55 PM
How about: Ross Gload for Victor Martinez?

Randar68
06-28-2004, 02:03 PM
From what I understand, the Pirates are desperate to trade Kendall's contract. If so, there are two possibilities:

One: The Sox assume all of Kendall's contract but don't have to give much up in return.

Two: The Pirates agree to pay some of Kendall's contract, but the Sox have to give up more talent in return.

The cash the Mariners sent back to the Sox, plus the money saved by dealing Koch to Florida, allow the Sox to afford Kendall this year. The certain increase in attendance and revenues this year and next year allow the Sox to pay him in 2005 and 2006.

What players would Pittsburgh want in return for Kendall? I have to assume that the Sox have what it takes, player-wise, to get such a deal done.
I'm glad the Sox didn't give up Rauch or Diaz in that trade for Garcia, but they gave up WAY more than I thought they would have to. How could the Yankees have come anywhere near that offer? Olivo and Reed are both better prospects than Any player in the Yankees organization. ouch.

So, back to the Pittsburg idea: What would they have to give up? I don't have a clue, as it would be completely dependant on the $$$ issues. I think Pittsburg would take a bag of baseballs for him if they didn't have to eat much of the contract, but that's not going to happen.

Can the Sox trade a guy like Diaz/Rauch/Munoz? I have a hard time with these kinds of deals that bankrupt the organization at the higher levels, as this is the depth you dip into when you have injuries or problems at the major league level. I don't want to be like the Mets, who are in a continually state of confusion between rebuilding their organization and being litterred with mid-high-salary veterans past their prime.

Looking long-term, Konerko and lee are both FA's after 2005, IIRC, so the long-term money in Kendall's contract or in a possible Garcia deal could be buoyed a bit by those monies...

34 Inch Stick
06-28-2004, 02:09 PM
It would have been nice if we could have gotten Dan Wilson in this deal.

mdep524
06-28-2004, 02:11 PM
From what I understand, the Pirates are desperate to trade Kendall's contract. If so, there are two possibilities:

One: The Sox assume all of Kendall's contract but don't have to give much up in return.

Two: The Pirates agree to pay some of Kendall's contract, but the Sox have to give up more talent in return.

The cash the Mariners sent back to the Sox, plus the money saved by dealing Koch to Florida, allow the Sox to afford Kendall this year. The certain increase in attendance and revenues this year and next year allow the Sox to pay him in 2005 and 2006.

What players would Pittsburgh want in return for Kendall? I have to assume that the Sox have what it takes, player-wise, to get such a deal done.
The Pirates are definitely desperate to trade Kendall and shed at least some of his contract. They practically begged San Diego to take him last year.

I really don't think the Sox could justify picking up all of his contract- it is enormous. (what was Pittsburgh thinking when they offered that thing??) Maybe if KW offered a mid-range prospect the Pirates would pick up half the tab on Kendall's contract.

Also, I'm not exactly sure how this went (or if it would be worth it in this case), but wasn't there some deal last year in which three teams were paying parts of Mike Hampton's contract? Maybe, and this is just for the sake of discussion, the Yanks could get involved in this trade and ease some of the financial burden. Something along the lines of Kendall to the Sox, Kris Benson to the Yanks, prospects to the Pirates. Being made of money, the Yanks could certainly "subsidize" Jason Kendall's contract (indirectly). Not sure if it would work, just a thought.

Flight #24
06-28-2004, 02:52 PM
The Pirates are definitely desperate to trade Kendall and shed at least some of his contract. They practically begged San Diego to take him last year.

I really don't think the Sox could justify picking up all of his contract- it is enormous. (what was Pittsburgh thinking when they offered that thing??) Maybe if KW offered a mid-range prospect the Pirates would pick up half the tab on Kendall's contract.

Also, I'm not exactly sure how this went (or if it would be worth it in this case), but wasn't there some deal last year in which three teams were paying parts of Mike Hampton's contract? Maybe, and this is just for the sake of discussion, the Yanks could get involved in this trade and ease some of the financial burden. Something along the lines of Kendall to the Sox, Kris Benson to the Yanks, prospects to the Pirates. Being made of money, the Yanks could certainly "subsidize" Jason Kendall's contract (indirectly). Not sure if it would work, just a thought.
Not a bad idea there. In a way, Garcia could be both the pitcher we need, and the catalyst to get the Yanks to help us get Kendall cheaply (by making them look to guys like Benson).

maurice
06-28-2004, 03:27 PM
C clearly is a huge organizational hole right now. (Heck, it was a pretty darn large hole before we traded our best C.) OTOH, I'm not sure KW shares our concern (at least for the time being). He may not try to add another C before this offseason.

I get the impression that KW is okay with slotting a good-D / no-hit C like Davis in the #9 spot. The entire organization likes Alomar much more than any Sox fans do, and OG really seems to like Burke, and the idea of carrying three catchers.

:(:

soxtalker
06-28-2004, 04:10 PM
C clearly is a huge organizational hole right now. (Heck, it was a pretty darn large hole before we traded our best C.) OTOH, I'm not sure KW shares our concern (at least for the time being). He may not try to add another C before this offseason.

I get the impression that KW is okay with slotting a good-D / no-hit C like Davis in the #9 spot. The entire organization likes Alomar much more than any Sox fans do, and OG really seems to like Burke, and the idea of carrying three catchers.

:(:
I think that's a pretty accurate read on the situation. I share your concerns about catcher, but they'll probably give Burke and Davis a chance to show what they can do as back-ups to Alomar.

Randar68
06-28-2004, 04:17 PM
I think that's a pretty accurate read on the situation. I share your concerns about catcher, but they'll probably give Burke and Davis a chance to show what they can do as back-ups to Alomar.
Neither one of those guys can hit AAA pitching. Davis is a better defensive catcher, but you might as well have your pitcher bat when he comes up...

mcfish
06-28-2004, 05:14 PM
C clearly is a huge organizational hole right now. (Heck, it was a pretty darn large hole before we traded our best C.) OTOH, I'm not sure KW shares our concern (at least for the time being). He may not try to add another C before this offseason.

I get the impression that KW is okay with slotting a good-D / no-hit C like Davis in the #9 spot. The entire organization likes Alomar much more than any Sox fans do, and OG really seems to like Burke, and the idea of carrying three catchers.

:(:
I don't know. I like Alomar a lot. I think he's one of the most valuable players on the roster right now. His experience is huge, and he's always been a very smart player. I hope he continues on with the Sox as a coach/manager when his playing days are over.

On top of that, I think he is still a very good major league catcher. He might not play every game, but he is a more than adequate catcher when he does.

mdep524
06-28-2004, 05:32 PM
I don't know. I like Alomar a lot. I think he's one of the most valuable players on the roster right now. His experience is huge, and he's always been a very smart player. I hope he continues on with the Sox as a coach/manager when his playing days are over.

On top of that, I think he is still a very good major league catcher. He might not play every game, but he is a more than adequate catcher when he does.
Yeah, I don't know why Sandy gets such a bad rap from some fans. He's like a coach on the field, Sox pitchers clearly trust and feel comfortable with him, and that's probably the biggest thing with a catcher, especially when he is a #9 hitter. Plus he's hitting .278 to boot.

Tragg
06-28-2004, 06:33 PM
C clearly is a huge organizational hole right now. (Heck, it was a pretty darn large hole before we traded our best C.) OTOH, I'm not sure KW shares our concern (at least for the time being). He may not try to add another C before this offseason.

I get the impression that KW is okay with slotting a good-D / no-hit C like Davis in the #9 spot. The entire organization likes Alomar much more than any Sox fans do, and OG really seems to like Burke, and the idea of carrying three catchers.

:(:
We basically accepted that hole throughout the 90s- Kark--Johnston--signed Alomar. It's okay with me-I'd rather have a hole there than not have a lefty bat for the playoffs.

idseer
06-28-2004, 06:43 PM
I will try to comment fully on the deal tomorrow. Flat out, I think KW overpayed, in essence giving up his 2 TOP prospects in this deal. the only way it makes sense is if the Sox can sign him to a below market multi-year deal. He's far better than Todd Ritchie, but even with olivo's mental problems with calling a game, you can't give up on that kind of pure talent IMO. Reed is a whole other can of worms...

Anyways! Kenny has absolutely got to have a back-up catcher plan in the works because Burke, Alomar, and Davis, even if they are all healthy equals about 1 Olivo in terms of offense. davis is a good defensive catcher and a good game-caller, but damn...

:whiner: and :(: and :mad: and :D: and :gulp: all at one time...
randar, how can you say this when you feel the exact opposite about rowand?

olivo is MORE a platoon player than aaron anyday!

Randar68
06-28-2004, 06:47 PM
randar, how can you say this when you feel the exact opposite about rowand?

olivo is MORE a platoon player than aaron anyday!
Olivo is younger, plays a much more difficult defensive position at a higher level, is more talented physically, and has a much higher ceiling.

Sorry, I guess Miguel didn't run into as many walls as a catcher.

Gotta love all the ridiculous revisionist history by folks on here crying about Reed's .275 average in his first year in AAA one year removed from starting in A-ball, and Olivo, an improving catcher with a cannon arm, who brings speed to the basepaths a very high ceiling.

I like getting Garcia, but make no mistake, we paid a very high price. It's classless and inaccurate (not to mention hypocrisy) for people to marginalize the 2 of those kids now.

habibharu
06-28-2004, 06:50 PM
Olivo is younger, plays a much more difficult defensive position at a higher level, is more talented physically, and has a much higher ceiling.

Sorry, I guess Miguel didn't run into as many walls as a catcher.

Gotta love all the ridiculous revisionist history by folks on here crying about Reed's .275 average in his first year in AAA one year removed from starting in A-ball, and Olivo, an improving catcher with a cannon arm, who brings speed to the basepaths a very high ceiling.

I like getting Garcia, but make no mistake, we paid a very high price. It's classless and inaccurate (not to mention hypocrisy) for people to marginalize the 2 of those kids now. what about morse? looking at his stats he looks like a good player, does he have a major league future?

Mohoney
06-28-2004, 06:52 PM
I don't see how Jason Kendall is pipe dream. Pittsburgh is desperate to unload him, and have been for a long time, so they would be more than accomodating in picking up a huge chunk of his salary. When you get past his contract, he is a very solid catcher who would be a perfect fit on this team in the #2 hole.

It probably wouldn't cost the Sox more than a mid-range prospect or two, and maybe we could get the Pirates to throw Brian Meadows in as well for some bullpen help. Makes sense all the way around, and definitely not just a pipe dream.

Plus, if we give a good upper-tier pitching prospect (Cotts, Munoz), we can demand even more money from The Pirates. It seems that this is the way it works now.

Randar68
06-28-2004, 06:54 PM
what about morse? looking at his stats he looks like a good player, does he have a major league future?
This was the first year he's hit well in the Sox organization (this is his 5th year, IIRC) and he is currently in the middle of a 15-day suspension by the team for violation of team rules which would likely be either steroids or gambling, but I don't know the whole story there yet.

He's not a future SS, more like a 3B or a 1B, but I don't think he was in the top 10-15 in the organization.

MRKARNO
06-28-2004, 06:56 PM
Olivo is younger, plays a much more difficult defensive position at a higher level, is more talented physically, and has a much higher ceiling.

I'm going to disagree for the most part. Rowand has a lot of power (look at his opposite field home runs), has decent speed, a cannon arm, a lot of range and can hit righties a helluva lot better than Olivo. The only part on which I'll agree is about playing a more difficult defensive position. Rowand is only 1 year older than Olivo. They're both agressive and strikeout a lot, but Rowand still looks a lot better at the plate against pitchers that throw a good changeup.

I told you that I was becoming a FOC Randar....

Randar68
06-28-2004, 06:58 PM
I'm going to disagree for the most part. Rowand has a lot of power (look at his opposite field home runs), has decent speed, a cannon arm, a lot of range and can hit righties a helluva lot better than Olivo. The only part on which I'll agree is about playing a more difficult defensive position. Rowand is only 1 year older than Olivo. They're both agressive and strikeout a lot, but Rowand still looks a lot better at the plate against pitchers that throw a good changeup.

I told you that I was becoming a FOC Randar....
Well, you already own a pair of blinders, apparently...

idseer
06-28-2004, 07:00 PM
Olivo is younger, plays a much more difficult defensive position at a higher level, is more talented physically, and has a much higher ceiling.

Sorry, I guess Miguel didn't run into as many walls as a catcher.

Gotta love all the ridiculous revisionist history by folks on here crying about Reed's .275 average in his first year in AAA one year removed from starting in A-ball, and Olivo, an improving catcher with a cannon arm, who brings speed to the basepaths a very high ceiling.

I like getting Garcia, but make no mistake, we paid a very high price. It's classless and inaccurate (not to mention hypocrisy) for people to marginalize the 2 of those kids now.
sorry, i can't buy that. so he's 1 year younger than rowand. anyway, that wasn't my point. you said he had tremendous offensive potential. i don't see this at any stage of his pro career. he's never had more than 356 ab's in any season. he OBVIOUSLY cannot hit righthanders and yet you think he will. why?
i will agree his is a more demanding position but i also see nothing to show he's outstanding defensively. i know he has a strong arm but catching takes a heck of a lot more than that.
me thinks you just like him personally ... sort of the way you just hate rowand personally, cause i can't see ANY stat that backs up your feelings on him.

Randar68
06-28-2004, 07:04 PM
sorry, i can't buy that. so he's 1 year younger than rowand. anyway, that wasn't my point. you said he had tremendous offensive potential. i don't see this at any stage of his pro career. he's never had more than 356 ab's in any season. he OBVIOUSLY cannot hit righthanders and yet you think he will. why?
i will agree his is a more demanding position but i also see nothing to show he's outstanding defensively. i know he has a strong arm but catching takes a heck of a lot more than that.
me thinks you just like him personally ... sort of the way you just hate rowand personally, cause i can't see ANY stat that backs up your feelings on him.
Catchers ALWAYS develop later, particularly offensively, let alone the mental (defensive) aspect that only comes with MLB experience.

Sorry, but Olivo has the bat and the track record. Rowand tries his ass off, but he'll never be half the player Olivo will be, and you can take that to the bank.

habibharu
06-28-2004, 07:06 PM
Catchers ALWAYS develop later, particularly offensively, let alone the mental (defensive) aspect that only comes with MLB experience.

Sorry, but Olivo has the bat and the track record. Rowand tries his ass off, but he'll never be half the player Olivo will be, and you can take that to the bank. agreed. IMO, rowand will always be a quality bench OF, and big MO will be an allstar one day

idseer
06-28-2004, 07:13 PM
Catchers ALWAYS develop later, particularly offensively, let alone the mental (defensive) aspect that only comes with MLB experience.

Sorry, but Olivo has the bat and the track record. Rowand tries his ass off, but he'll never be half the player Olivo will be, and you can take that to the bank.so you feel he will magically start hitting right handers then. :rolleyes:

ok this is one of those things that gets saved for later consideration. we shall see. :cool:

Randar68
06-28-2004, 07:14 PM
so you feel he will magically start hitting right handers then. :rolleyes:

ok this is one of those things that gets saved for later consideration. we shall see. :cool:
He couldn't hit either last year according to everyone now...

Oh well. Maybe we should convert jose to a catcher, because it is such a trivial position... :rolleyes:

Jerome
06-28-2004, 07:16 PM
Doesn't the third Molina brother make Mike Matheny expendable? I bet St. Louis would love to have Rausch or Diaz, because the Cardinals don't have the pitching talent of Scrubs or Astros. Of course we'd have to give more than just one player, but I'm just throwing Matheny's name out there. Anyone got his contract info?


http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stl/stats/stl_sortable_player_stats.jsp?baseballScope=sln&subScope=pos&teamPosCode=2&statType=Overview&timeSubFrame=2004&sitSplit=&venueID=&Submit=Submit&timeFrame=1

Randar68
06-28-2004, 07:16 PM
ok this is one of those things that gets saved for later consideration. we shall see. :cool:
Yeah, who has to catalog anything you post, you clarify a new ridiculous post each week with some utterly incomprehensible "evaluation" of someone. Rowand is a stud, dude.

idseer
06-28-2004, 07:18 PM
He couldn't hit either last year according to everyone now...

Oh well. Maybe we should convert jose to a catcher, because it is such a trivial position... :rolleyes:
look at his numbers last year against righties. they are terrible.

interesting you should mention jose. i just started another thread with that very idea. .... half tongue in cheek, but i thought it was interesting.

idseer
06-28-2004, 07:20 PM
Yeah, who has to catalog anything you post, you clarify a new ridiculous post each week with some utterly incomprehensible "evaluation" of someone. Rowand is a stud, dude. man ... you are a real ****, you know that randar? the thing is, you seem to relish it.

habibharu
06-28-2004, 07:21 PM
i think that we can survive this year with just davis, alomar, and burke. as long as they are solid defesively and call a good game, their bats really arent needed, especially when maggs comes back. but next year or the year after that, it seems like we are screwed

FarWestChicago
06-28-2004, 07:22 PM
man ... you are a real ****, you know that randar? the thing is, you seem to relish it.id, personal insults are not allowed. I know you can clean it up.

Randar68
06-28-2004, 07:24 PM
man ... you are a real ****, you know that randar? the thing is, you seem to relish it.
Frankly, being insulted by someone who cherishes Rowand the way you do is a compliment. Thank you very much.

idseer
06-28-2004, 07:24 PM
id, personal insults are not allowed. I know you can clean it up.
sorry west but that pompous, self-important boob just keeps pushing.

i'll try to stay away from it like i used to.

silly me to think maybe we could converse like normal human beings.

Randar68
06-28-2004, 07:27 PM
sorry west but that pompous, self-important boob just keeps pushing.
"Sorry, but he's a **** mother**** Son of a ****"

Man, it takes some kind of big person to apologize like that.

silly me to think maybe we could converse like normal human beings.
Because normal people find a way to interject Aaron Rowand into every possible baseball discussion


BLA!

idseer
06-28-2004, 07:32 PM
"Sorry, but he's a **** mother**** Son of a ****"

Man, it takes some kind of big person to apologize like that.


Because normal people find a way to interject Aaron Rowand into every possible baseball discussion


BLA!
1st, i wasn't apologizing to you

second, rowand is a perfect example to point out how you feel a guy who can only hit lefties should be platoon players and thus how hypocritical it is to suggest someone who is even WORSE will be an all-star!
i know exaggeration is your strong point so i'll let the suggestion that my every post deals with rowand roll into the gutter where it belongs.

Philo-Sox-er
06-28-2004, 07:38 PM
Doesn't the third Molina brother make Mike Matheny expendable? I bet St. Louis would love to have Rausch or Diaz, because the Cardinals don't have the pitching talent of Scrubs or Astros. Of course we'd have to give more than just one player, but I'm just throwing Matheny's name out there. Anyone got his contract info?
The last contract Matheny signed was:

Mike Matheny CSTLSigned Apr 2001 - 3 years/$8.75M 2002: $2.5M
2003: $3.5M
2004: $2.75M

But I heard that Walt Jockety was not really looking to make any moves since they are playing so well now, except maybe a proven starting pitcher. They are in a playoff run too--so we can't give them what they want.

MRKARNO
06-28-2004, 07:38 PM
Well, you already own a pair of blinders, apparently...
Well if statistical evidence has been renamed "a pair of blinders" then I own that.

Rowands Range Factor This year: 2.86
Players that have played more than 300 CF innings that are higher on the list: 5 (Cameron, Beltran, Payton, Winn, Baldelli)

Rowand's Zone Rating this year: .912
Players that have played more than 300 CF innings that are higher on the list: 2 (Damon and Wells)

And while admittedly a lot of Rowand's good hitting stats do come from his unproportionally high number of at bats vs lefties to be honest, his lefty/righty splits are more propotionate than Olivo's

habibharu
06-28-2004, 07:39 PM
The last contract Matheny signed was:

Mike Matheny CSTLSigned Apr 2001 - 3 years/$8.75M 2002: $2.5M
2003: $3.5M
2004: $2.75M

But I heard that Walt Jockety was not really looking to make any moves since they are playing so well now, except maybe a proven starting pitcher. They are in a playoff run too--so we can't give them what they want. brent mayne would be a better fit. the dbacks should start dumping soon. maybe we could also get randy johnson

Philo-Sox-er
06-28-2004, 07:41 PM
Mayne is on the DL.

habibharu
06-28-2004, 07:43 PM
Mayne is on the DL. for how long?

habibharu
06-28-2004, 07:44 PM
i think the perfect guy would be greg zaun. the jays dont need him cuz he's old and he is pretty damn good http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5427

Philo-Sox-er
06-28-2004, 07:55 PM
I think he (Mayne) might be back in a week or two. No latest news on him since he went on the DL.

soxwon
06-28-2004, 08:45 PM
kw knows what he is doing.
he will get us a catcher
im banking on IROD

SoxxoS
06-28-2004, 08:49 PM
kw knows what he is doing.
he will get us a catcher
im banking on IROD
And I'm banking on UON CRACK.

Randar68
06-28-2004, 09:05 PM
And I'm banking on UON CRACK.
WE HAVE A WINNER!

soxwon
06-28-2004, 09:21 PM
soxxos why you being rude!
whats wrong with thinking we will get irod!
for god sakes were all sox fans.
i have a right to my opinion, so do you
but i dont get rude.
grow up

A. Cavatica
06-28-2004, 09:22 PM
what about morse? looking at his stats he looks like a good player, does he have a major league future?
Maybe...but he's probably not worth as much as the two first round picks we get in the deal (if Garcia leaves at the end of the season).

soxtalker
06-28-2004, 09:23 PM
Yeah, I don't know why Sandy gets such a bad rap from some fans. He's like a coach on the field, Sox pitchers clearly trust and feel comfortable with him, and that's probably the biggest thing with a catcher, especially when he is a #9 hitter. Plus he's hitting .278 to boot.
I don't know if it is so much a "bad rap." I see a couple of negatives on top of a lot of positives. One is that he has trouble throwing out runners. The other is a constant concern about possible injuries due to age.

harwar
06-28-2004, 09:26 PM
I don't know how much Javy Lopez is making but baltimore is 16 games out of first.

By the way,jeff suppan of the cardinals has a no-no thru 6 2/3 against the pirates.

Randar68
06-28-2004, 09:34 PM
I don't know how much Javy Lopez is making but baltimore is 16 games out of first.

By the way,jeff suppan of the cardinals has a no-no thru 6 2/3 against the pirates.
that was a pretty timely jinx there!

harwar
06-28-2004, 09:35 PM
yea,i feel terrible...