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Lip Man 1
06-27-2004, 11:04 PM
From White Sox.com: (partial)

"The White Sox were not the only ones interested in Garcia. The New York Yankees had been scouting him for several weeks. The Mariners called New York general manager Brian Cashman on Sunday and said they were prepared to trade Garcia, then called him back and said they had an offer they didn't think could be topped.

"We couldn't match that deal," Cashman told the Associated Press, adding that New York's prospects were not as close to being ready for the major leagues as Chicago's are.

The two-time All-Star is 76-50 in his six-year career with a 3.89 ERA.

"We have an opportunity to challenge for the division in a better way," White Sox general manager Ken Williams said.

Olivo was too upset after the game to comment, a team spokesman said.

"It was one of the hardest conversations I've ever had with a player," Williams said.

"We had to make a tough call today, but ultimately we had to decide whether or not it was in our best interests to get a top end of the rotation guy or hang on to a little bit of our future. As you all know, it's been a long time here in Chicago since we've done anything special in the postseason," Williams told ESPN Radio on Sunday night.

"We're just not looking at Freddie for this year. Hopefully we can sign him to an extension and he can be part of our future as well."

"They'll get a good pitcher," Mariners general manager Bill Bavasi said. "Freddy came into spring training very, very focused. He has maintained his focus under a very, very tough situation. There were a lot of rumors. He's dealt with those well."

"Ultimately, the decision I had to make was were we better positioned with Freddy Garcia on our roster or Miguel Olivo on our roster, and not just this year but hopefully for future years, as we have every intention of trying to sign Freddy to a long-term deal," Williams said.

"Today we made what we think is a good deal for us," Bavasi said. "The White Sox made a good deal. It puts them ahead in their division, as far as personnel and trying to win that division."

Lip

HomerCoach
06-28-2004, 12:01 AM
Good stuff, thanks Lip!:worship:

nasox
06-28-2004, 12:34 AM
Good stuff, thanks Lip!:worship:


Yes I second that!:thumbsup:

jabrch
06-28-2004, 12:35 AM
I am still of the opinion that this was a good move.

MRKARNO
06-28-2004, 12:40 AM
Lip, I assume that you're really happy about this deal. You've been looking for the Sox to go for it and get a pitcher and they did just that. Am I right in this assumption?

jeremyb1
06-28-2004, 01:35 AM
I feel these quotes underscore what I feel are a few of the most critical points regarding this deal.

1)

"We couldn't match that deal," Cashman told the Associated Press, adding that New York's prospects were not as close to being ready for the major leagues as Chicago's are.

We offered more than any other team would've considered giving up and even apparently more than the next best competitor could give up. Hence we drastically overpaid and have been made to look like fools.

2)

"Ultimately, the decision I had to make was were we better positioned with Freddy Garcia on our roster or Miguel Olivo on our roster, and not just this year but hopefully for future years, as we have every intention of trying to sign Freddy to a long-term deal,"

a) Williams horribly undervalued Reed. There are two schools of thought on Reed. One, which I happen to subscribe to, can be found via the Baseball Prospectus folks whose PECOTA rating systems list Tony Gwynn as the player most similar to Reed and ranked him as the number one prospect in all of baseball prior to the season. The second can be found from the tools based Baseball America (and is apparently shared by KW) which places little emphasis on Reed's amazing performance in the minors based on the fact that he doesn't flash a ton of tools. While I think we'd win more games if we adopted the former approach regardless, just because we instead employ the latter approach doesn't mean we should assume all other teams do. We could've received a lot more for Reed.

b) I doubt that Reisdorf agreed to raise payroll next season by however much it takes to resign Garcia. You can't evaluate Garcia and Olivo on the same scale because it will take 7-8 million at a minimum to resign Garcia (money that means we won't resign Maggs or acquire a top flight replacement) whereas Olivo and Reed will combine to make less than 2 million next season. Kenny, I might agree with you if our payroll was limitless but I think you know better.

kittle42
06-28-2004, 01:45 AM
We offered more than any other team would've considered giving up and even apparently more than the next best competitor could give up. Hence we drastically overpaid and have been made to look like fools.
Um, don't you generally have to offer "more" then your competitors to beat them out for a potential trade?

CHISOXFAN13
06-28-2004, 01:45 AM
I feel these quotes underscore what I feel are a few of the most critical points regarding this deal.

1)



We offered more than any other team would've considered giving up and even apparently more than the next best competitor could give up. Hence we drastically overpaid and have been made to look like fools.

2)



a) Williams horribly undervalued Reed. There are two schools of thought on Reed. One, which I happen to subscribe to, can be found via the Baseball Prospectus folks whose PECOTA rating systems list Tony Gwynn as the player most similar to Reed and ranked him as the number one prospect in all of baseball prior to the season. The second can be found from the tools based Baseball America (and is apparently shared by KW) which places little emphasis on Reed's amazing performance in the minors based on the fact that he doesn't flash a ton of tools. While I think we'd win more games if we adopted the former approach regardless, just because we instead employ the latter approach doesn't mean we should assume all other teams do. We could've received a lot more for Reed.

b) I doubt that Reisdorf agreed to raise payroll next season by however much it takes to resign Garcia. You can't evaluate Garcia and Olivo on the same scale because it will take 7-8 million at a minimum to resign Garcia (money that means we won't resign Maggs or acquire a top flight replacement) whereas Olivo and Reed will combine to make less than 2 million next season. Kenny, I might agree with you if our payroll was limitless but I think you know better.
You seem to be forgetting about the 6.25 mildo that's off the books with Koch and the likely 5 million more from Valentin's contract next season.

That is more than enough to sign Garcia to a ltd and still have some left over.

jeremyb1
06-28-2004, 01:50 AM
You seem to be forgetting about the 6.25 mildo that's off the books with Koch and the likely 5 million more from Valentin's contract next season.

That is more than enough to sign Garcia to a ltd and still have some left over.

Well first of all Uribe and Garland at a minimum are looking at substantial raises as arbitration elligble players most likely. Second of all, that means that we're not resigning Loaiza and that Garcia is not replacing the fifth starters spot with the 11 ERA next season he's replacing the guy with the 4.2 ERA instead which makes it a much lesser upgrade. Third, I've noticed the argument that Harris is better than Valentin has dissapeared lately since they have pretty comperable AVG/OBP while Jose has 15 homers and a huge SLG to Harris's zero home runs and sub .400 SLG so we're going to have a huge dropoff if Jose departs. Finally I maintain that we could find better options on the free agent market such as Beltran if we're really going to free up 23 million in salary next season.

Bisco Stu
06-28-2004, 02:07 AM
How often do "prospects" pan out, anyway? Olivo is beyond a prospect, but the other two, meh. Remember all the prospects JR was salivating over after the White Flag trade. And that trade actually produced an above average player, Foulke, which is surprising. Usually prospects generally never rise above just that, and it's a career in the minors, Meat.

We need arms, so this trade hadda be done. I still want Ortiz, too. We've got the O to win the Series. Now we need the arms.

jeremyb1
06-28-2004, 02:14 AM
How often do "prospects" pan out, anyway? Olivo is beyond a prospect, but the other two, meh. Remember all the prospects JR was salivating over after the White Flag trade. And that trade actually produced an above average player, Foulke, which is surprising. Usually prospects generally never rise above just that, and it's a career in the minors, Meat.

We need arms, so this trade hadda be done. I still want Ortiz, too. We've got the O to win the Series. Now we need the arms.

This post typifies the problem. You're writing about how often "prospects" pan out. Regarding all prospects as equal is the same as regarding all MLB players as equal. So saying about Reed "how often to prospects pan out" is the same as me saying about Barry Bonds "how often are baseball players really hall of fame players". Well it depends on how good the prospect (player) is and I'm telling you that Reed is a once in a decade prospect at least as far as our organization goes.

Bisco Stu
06-28-2004, 03:52 AM
I mean "prospects" in the sense of someone hyped (rightly or wrongly) as opposed to a given minor leaguer, who theoretically, has a "shot" at the bigs.

This trade may burn us, yes, but when you are contending and you can get a proven major leaguer vs. prospects, you go with the proven.

BTW, I agree with you & others that we gave up too much, but we need pitching if we want a shot at winning a playoff series for the first time since '17.

Hokiesox
06-28-2004, 07:58 AM
You seem to be forgetting about the 6.25 mildo that's off the books with Koch and the likely 5 million more from Valentin's contract next season.

That is more than enough to sign Garcia to a ltd and still have some left over.

His agent is still Scott Boras. We're not resigning him. The Yankees probably couldn't match that deal because they'll just wait for him to be a free agent. Unfortunately, I too feel we overpaid for this. I can part with Reed to make us better, but Olivo is too much for me. I hope Ben Davis never catches a game for the Sox.

Paulwny
06-28-2004, 02:05 PM
Well, this is nice to see, King George isn't happy with the trade.

From Newsday:
With George Steinbrenner at Yankee Stadium, it wasn't a pleasant day for the Yankees' general manager, even as his club swept the Mets in a day-night doubleheader. The Yankees had targeted Garcia as their top option in upgrading their starting rotation, but they didn't have the prospects to make the righthander theirs - infuriating The Boss. :D:

DaveIsHere
06-28-2004, 02:08 PM
His agent is still Scott Boras. We're not resigning him. The Yankees probably couldn't match that deal because they'll just wait for him to be a free agent. Unfortunately, I too feel we overpaid for this. I can part with Reed to make us better, but Olivo is too much for me. I hope Ben Davis never catches a game for the Sox.Boras is not his agent, I forgot the name of his agant, but I will edit when I find it

delben91
06-28-2004, 02:08 PM
His agent is still Scott Boras.

Actually, it's not Boras.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=35898

Rocky Soprano
06-28-2004, 02:09 PM
His agent is still Scott Boras. We're not resigning him. The Yankees probably couldn't match that deal because they'll just wait for him to be a free agent. Unfortunately, I too feel we overpaid for this. I can part with Reed to make us better, but Olivo is too much for me. I hope Ben Davis never catches a game for the Sox.
Scott Boras is NOT Garcia's agent.

AnkleSox
06-28-2004, 02:24 PM
Remember, Ozzie and Freddy are best friends. Depending on his personality (how hungry for money he really is), how much he enjoys Chicago, and how much more payroll the Sox free up by next year, I think there is a good chance he will stay here after this year.

Flight #24
06-28-2004, 02:30 PM
His agent is still Scott Boras. We're not resigning him. The Yankees probably couldn't match that deal because they'll just wait for him to be a free agent. Unfortunately, I too feel we overpaid for this. I can part with Reed to make us better, but Olivo is too much for me. I hope Ben Davis never catches a game for the Sox.
His agent is not Boras. And FWIW: Rick utcliffe in his chat on ESPN today posted that as far back as ST, he was expecting Freddy to sign with the Sox after becoming an FA, and he feels it's a virtual certainty that he sticks around now.

Flight #24
06-28-2004, 02:38 PM
We offered more than any other team would've considered giving up and even apparently more than the next best competitor could give up. Hence we drastically overpaid and have been made to look like fools.
You're reading into the comments. All Cashman says is that they can't match the offer. You interpret that to mean "we can't come close to the offer". The fact that we got him already means that we beat out other offers....otherwise they'd have him. Unless you expected Seattle to trade him for the 2d best offer?:smile:



a) Williams horribly undervalued Reed. There are two schools of thought on Reed. One, which I happen to subscribe to, can be found via the Baseball Prospectus folks whose PECOTA rating systems list Tony Gwynn as the player most similar to Reed and ranked him as the number one prospect in all of baseball prior to the season. The second can be found from the tools based Baseball America (and is apparently shared by KW) which places little emphasis on Reed's amazing performance in the minors based on the fact that he doesn't flash a ton of tools. While I think we'd win more games if we adopted the former approach regardless, just because we instead employ the latter approach doesn't mean we should assume all other teams do. We could've received a lot more for Reed.
Reed had a great AA season last year. he's having a much more mediocre AAA season this year (lower Avg, OPS, & SLG than Borchard although higher OBP). There are also reports of a lingering wrist injury, who knows how long that will last or what the impact on him will be.

b) I doubt that Reisdorf agreed to raise payroll next season by however much it takes to resign Garcia. You can't evaluate Garcia and Olivo on the same scale because it will take 7-8 million at a minimum to resign Garcia (money that means we won't resign Maggs or acquire a top flight replacement) whereas Olivo and Reed will combine to make less than 2 million next season. Kenny, I might agree with you if our payroll was limitless but I think you know better.
The facts of attendance and payroll show that after attendance increases, payroll goes up. The myth that "JR is cheap" isn't borne out. He's not cheap, he's risk-averse and won't spend in hopes that revenues follow.

Attendance is up. This deal makes the team better right now AND creates a ton of buzz, which will lead to more attendance improvements. A playoff run will add to that (something that's more likely now than Saturday). All of that will translate to extra revenues, and history says those will be plowed into the team. With the loss of Koch, and either the loss of or reduction in Val's salary, we could theoretically increase payroll 10-12m and keep Freddy (net impact 0 after Koch & Vals' reduction), ELo (6M), Maggs (14m - net impact of 0), and other assorted raises (4-6m).

jeremyb1
06-28-2004, 03:02 PM
You're reading into the comments. All Cashman says is that they can't match the offer. You interpret that to mean "we can't come close to the offer". The fact that we got him already means that we beat out other offers....otherwise they'd have him. Unless you expected Seattle to trade him for the 2d best offer?:smile:

Well I guess I should've elaborated. Based on my knowledge of the Yank's farm system I don't think they could've offered a deal in the same ballpark. Navarro is their best prospect and he's probably about equal to Olivo since he's not as far along. Basically, Olivo and Morse is about the best deal the Yankees could offer taking their system into consideration. I agree I was reading into Cashman's comments, his language suggest we blew their offer out of the water not that it was slightly better.

Reed had a great AA season last year. he's having a much more mediocre AAA season this year (lower Avg, OPS, & SLG than Borchard although higher OBP). There are also reports of a lingering wrist injury, who knows how long that will last or what the impact on him will be.

You're absolutely correct but I refuse to disregard or severely discount 800 plate appearances at the expense of 230 especially when a nagging injury might be involved. As far as a "lingering wrist injury", I don't know of any chronic, career debilitating wrist injuries. Reed didn't figure to play in the majors until next season for us so it's pretty irrelevant.

The facts of attendance and payroll show that after attendance increases, payroll goes up. The myth that "JR is cheap" isn't borne out. He's not cheap, he's risk-averse and won't spend in hopes that revenues follow.

Attendance is up. This deal makes the team better right now AND creates a ton of buzz, which will lead to more attendance improvements.

I agree. One of the few bright spots I can think of with this deal is that it gives us a nice buzz in the national media and puts us in the forefront locally for a change.

A playoff run will add to that (something that's more likely now than Saturday). All of that will translate to extra revenues, and history says those will be plowed into the team.

Well that's what we all said in '00, right? But the attendance dropped the next season. Even before we burried ourselves we weren't drawing significantly bigger crowds. Everyone argued that increases in attendance based on winning seasons don't take affect until the next season and the first month or so we weren't selling all that many tickets. A simple one and done in the playoffs would have a minimal effect on attendance in my opinon, we need to go far to make a splash.

With the loss of Koch, and either the loss of or reduction in Val's salary, we could theoretically increase payroll 10-12m and keep Freddy (net impact 0 after Koch & Vals' reduction), ELo (6M), Maggs (14m - net impact of 0), and other assorted raises (4-6m).

This argument was made elsewhere. Let's assume we keep Maggs and pay him the same as we did this last season (14 million) so we'll just look at the rest of the roster and the remaining 11 million we free up from Koch and Valentin. .75 million increase to Konerko, 2.25 million increase for Buehrle, 2 million increase for Carlos, 1.75 million increase to Shingo if he stays plus arbitration for Uribe and Garland which has to add up to at least 3 million. By that estimate we've increased the budget 9.75 million almost completely offsetting the the 11 million we gain in losing Koch and Valentin and by swapping Jose for either Harris or Rowand in CF, we've also lost quite a bit of talent. That means we can either resign Garcia and ELo (or bullpen help, a CF, a C which we now lack, etc) or Maggs not both unless JR is willing to up payroll at least 10 million.

lowesox
06-28-2004, 03:10 PM
From White Sox.com: (partial)

Olivo was too upset after the game to comment, a team spokesman said.

"It was one of the hardest conversations I've ever had with a player," Williams said.
Lip
I think Olivo was so upset because this is a tight unit that he's a big part of. This is going to be a giant knock to our chemistry.

...one other reason why this trade is stupid.

daveeym
06-28-2004, 03:14 PM
I think Olivo was so upset because this is a tight unit that he's a big part of. This is going to be a giant knock to our chemistry.

...one other reason why this trade is stupid.
Oh please. This team wants to win, this team knew moves were going to be made, they are all professionals, there will be no chemistry problems.

Flight #24
06-28-2004, 03:18 PM
Well I guess I should've elaborated. Based on my knowledge of the Yank's farm system I don't think they could've offered a deal in the same ballpark. Navarro is their best prospect and he's probably about equal to Olivo since he's not as far along. Basically, Olivo and Morse is about the best deal the Yankees could offer taking their system into consideration. I agree I was reading into Cashman's comments, his language suggest we blew their offer out of the water not that it was slightly better.
The earlier rumors were Navarro+Morse+Contreras (who looked nasty yesterday)+cash (for Jose's contract). That's a pretty good offer, and I wouldn't say that our winning bid blows it out of the water by any means.



You're absolutely correct but I refuse to disregard or severely discount 800 plate appearances at the expense of 230 especially when a nagging injury might be involved. As far as a "lingering wrist injury", I don't know of any chronic, career debilitating wrist injuries. Reed didn't figure to play in the majors until next season for us so it's pretty irrelevant.
While true, isn't much of Reed's "promise" based on his 242ABs at AA last year where he hit .409/.474OBP/1.065OPS? His prior numbers are very good, but not exactly HOF material. Neither is his play so far this year in 276 ABs.



I agree. One of the few bright spots I can think of with this deal is that it gives us a nice buzz in the national media and puts us in the forefront locally for a change.
Which is why my personal opinion of this trade is that it could well end up being Garcia+Elo+Maggs for Olivo+Reed since the boost in attendance and buzz is what can fuel revenues that enable the resigning of the 3 mentioned. That's an added benefit of going to win now rather than holding on for the future.


Well that's what we all said in '00, right? But the attendance dropped the next season. Even before we burried ourselves we weren't drawing significantly bigger crowds. Everyone argued that increases in attendance based on winning seasons don't take affect until the next season and the first month or so we weren't selling all that many tickets. A simple one and done in the playoffs would have a minimal effect on attendance in my opinon, we need to go far to make a splash.IIRC, the team started off horrifically in 2001. Could that happen again? Sure, but it's unlikely. That was pretty much a cursed year with JM's terrible managing, Well's injury, Frank's injury all happening at once.

And as for the "splash", I think this deal puts us in significantly greater position to do that. This team stacks up against any in the AL. Offensively, even without Olivo as good or better than anyone but the Yanks. Pitching wise - anyone but Oakland.



This argument was made elsewhere. Let's assume we keep Maggs and pay him the same as we did this last season (14 million) so we'll just look at the rest of the roster and the remaining 11 million we free up from Koch and Valentin. .75 million increase to Konerko, 2.25 million increase for Buehrle, 2 million increase for Carlos, 1.75 million increase to Shingo if he stays plus arbitration for Uribe and Garland which has to add up to at least 3 million. By that estimate we've increased the budget 9.75 million almost completely offsetting the the 11 million we gain in losing Koch and Valentin and by swapping Jose for either Harris or Rowand in CF, we've also lost quite a bit of talent. That means we can either resign Garcia and ELo (or bullpen help, a CF, a C which we now lack, etc) or Maggs not both unless JR is willing to up payroll at least 10 million.
I don't think a 10mil increase is that farfetched, given that we look like we'll have a 30%+ increase in attendance (it's 20-25%now, and that should only increase), plus playoff revenues (and added buzz for that). CF will go to Rowand/Borchard, and there are C's that can be had cheaply - guys like Zaun, etc who are decent offensively and pretty solid defensively.

JRIG
06-28-2004, 03:20 PM
I think Olivo was so upset because this is a tight unit that he's a big part of. This is going to be a giant knock to our chemistry.
What are you talking about? He only starts "two out of every five days!"

Paulwny
06-28-2004, 03:28 PM
I think Olivo was so upset because this is a tight unit that he's a big part of. This is going to be a giant knock to our chemistry.

...one other reason why this trade is stupid.I've always heard 2 meanings for " team chemistry"
1) everyone gets along, "happy campers"
2) the right mix of players, good sp, good pen, singles and doubles hitters, some speed, good defense and hr hitters. Put it all together, similar to mixing chemicals, and this = a great experiment.

I choose the latter, but I feel many here choose no 1. They weren't called the "battling A's"because of their play on the field and they won a few WS.

jeremyb1
06-28-2004, 03:50 PM
The earlier rumors were Navarro+Morse+Contreras (who looked nasty yesterday)+cash (for Jose's contract). That's a pretty good offer, and I wouldn't say that our winning bid blows it out of the water by any means.

I have a hard time believing that the Yanks were going to throw 15 million or so the M's way to cover Contreras' deal. One start by Contreras does not a great career make. He's older, he's in his prime, his ERA is still over five. He's not a very intriguing player for a club in rebuilding mode. Furthremore, the M's don't really need pitching. They have tons of young pitchers that put Morse to shame. I think Contreras is close to worthless for the Mariners in that deal so lets call him equivalent to Mike Morse in our deal which is generous, Navarro is no more valuable than Olivo. That leaves us with Reed, arguably the top prospect in the game entering the season vs. Morse. I'd say that's a night and day difference in the calliber of the two different deals. The Yankees just don't have any top flight building blocks outside of Navarro and we gave up two.

While true, isn't much of Reed's "promise" based on his 242ABs at AA last year where he hit .409/.474OBP/1.065OPS? His prior numbers are very good, but not exactly HOF material. Neither is his play so far this year in 276 ABs.

Nope. His Winston Salem batting average wasn't as high but he walked at a much higher clip when he wasn't batting .400. Again we're talking 500 great PAs, 280 out of this world plate appearances, and 250 mediocre PAs. I don't see why we'd place the emphasis on the 250 mediocre PAs or weight them for more than what they are, a mere quarter of Reed's minor league time.

Which is why my personal opinion of this trade is that it could well end up being Garcia+Elo+Maggs for Olivo+Reed since the boost in attendance and buzz is what can fuel revenues that enable the resigning of the 3 mentioned. That's an added benefit of going to win now rather than holding on for the future.

I'd just be flabergasted if we upped payroll in the neighborhood of 10 million short of a World Series victory and I view Reinsdorf far less negatively than most posters on this message board.

IIRC, the team started off horrifically in 2001. Could that happen again? Sure, but it's unlikely. That was pretty much a cursed year with JM's terrible managing, Well's injury, Frank's injury all happening at once.

Yeah but what I was emphasizing in that post was our attendance at the beginning of the season before the season was in the tank. Coming off a division title you'd expect a huge increase in season tickets, sell outs for the first few series, etc., no?

This team stacks up against any in the AL. Offensively, even without Olivo as good or better than anyone but the Yanks. Pitching wise - anyone but Oakland.

Sorry man but I think that's pure insanity. Boston has two of the best pitchers in baseball in Pedro and Schilling. We might have a third and even fifth starter but with an improving Lowe they're just as good as we are with our four and they just smash us to pieces in the top two spots. The Yanks are only worse if Brown stays injured and Mussina somehow manages to post an ERA of 5 the rest of the way. I wouldn't count on that.

I don't think a 10mil increase is that farfetched, given that we look like we'll have a 30%+ increase in attendance (it's 20-25%now, and that should only increase), plus playoff revenues (and added buzz for that). CF will go to Rowand/Borchard, and there are C's that can be had cheaply - guys like Zaun, etc who are decent offensively and pretty solid defensively.

Again I find it next to impossible that this trade and this trade alone triggers at 10 million dollar increase in the payroll next season short of us advancing to the World Series.

hawkjt
06-28-2004, 03:57 PM
It pains me greatly to see Miguel go but I agree with Flight 24 on the impact possibilities. I agree that Reinsdorf will spend if revenues go up a little. He wants to win as much as anyone but he has partners who might not let him lose too much mony. If this team is in contention all the way attendance will be up. The latin market in this town is huge and marketing to them will help attendance and more importantly help Garcia and Maggs in endorsement opportunities making the sox a more attractive team to play for. Any reasonable shortfall on a longterm deal will be more than made up with outside income. I miss Mo already.

akingamongstmen
06-28-2004, 04:17 PM
His agent is still Scott Boras. We're not resigning him. The Yankees probably couldn't match that deal because they'll just wait for him to be a free agent. Unfortunately, I too feel we overpaid for this. I can part with Reed to make us better, but Olivo is too much for me. I hope Ben Davis never catches a game for the Sox.
What do you have against Ben Davis??? :dunno:

JRIG
06-28-2004, 04:22 PM
What do you have against Ben Davis??? :dunno:
A career OPS of .671? Never having an OPB more than .337? His second best OBP year being .313? Having one season in his career with a SLG better than .400? Striking out once every 3.9 at bats in his career?

Where would you like to start?

Hokiesox
06-28-2004, 04:40 PM
An .091 average for this year?

The only thing this guy is notable for is breaking up a Schilling's perfect game by bunting in the eigth inning a few years ago.

longshot7
06-28-2004, 05:06 PM
I think Olivo was so upset because this is a tight unit that he's a big part of. This is going to be a giant knock to our chemistry.

...one other reason why this trade is stupid.


Whatever dude. Winning breeds chemistry. Look at Bonds & Kent who hated each other and still took the Giants to the Series in 02.

Lip Man 1
06-28-2004, 10:18 PM
Karno:

As I said in the thread when the deal was announced I was shocked and very sorry to see Olivo go, but the Mariners weren't going to just give Garcia away.

What choice did the Sox have? The 5th starters have been garbage, Schowenweis is out two weeks and the other guys were struggling.

From what I heard on the phone yesterday speaking to some folks in Chicago Williams is not done, he wants still more pitching and will pay to get it. then if needed he feels he can unload some of it at the deadline for either a catcher, left handed stick or center fielder.

If the Sox have solved their pitching depth problem over the winter perhaps they wouldn't be in this spot but that's not how they operate. And remember they now have three potential free agent starters off the club for next winter. It'll be very interesting to see what they do.

We'll see.

Lip