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lowesox
06-27-2004, 10:27 PM
will those of you who like this Garcia trade still like it? I'll admit, if this trade wins us the WS, I'll take back every bad thing I said about Kenny and this trade - just wondering what some of you will think if we don't win it all this year.

AFter all, we gave up A LOT of the future.

doublem23
06-27-2004, 10:30 PM
I'm happy that KW is trying to win now, rather than a few years from now. And really, who's to say Reed will ever amount to anything? Remember the great Brian Simmons who was supposed to be our centerfielder of the future?

DSpivack
06-27-2004, 10:32 PM
If we to the ALCS I think I might be happy enough with this trade.

As for WS, I'm a little skeptical they can make it that far, but that is one of the great joys of sports, you never know.

1951Campbell
06-27-2004, 10:34 PM
The Garcia trade represents trying, in a serious way, to win it all. And that's a big improvement over past years.

And I'm sick of hearing about the future. Too many minor-league nerds think that going for it in the season that you're currently in is worse than sitting around and waiting for a bunch of "can't miss" prospects to come toegther 5 years down the road.

inta
06-27-2004, 10:34 PM
will those of you who like this Garcia trade still like it? I'll admit, if this trade wins us the WS, I'll take back every bad thing I said about Kenny and this trade - just wondering what some of you will think if we don't win it all this year.

AFter all, we gave up A LOT of the future.

that's a dumb question, of course everyone will look back at this trade with scorn.
but hindsight's 20/20.

I'd much rather try to win it all this year, than do nothing and wonder "what if?"


"wait till next year" is not a southside mantra...

MRKARNO
06-27-2004, 10:53 PM
This was a deal we had to do and if we could just get to the ALCS, I would be ecsatic. If we won the pennant, then forget the future. We havent done that in 45 years! The fact that we are going for it is great I think.

JRIG
06-27-2004, 10:56 PM
will those of you who like this Garcia trade still like it? I'll admit, if this trade wins us the WS, I'll take back every bad thing I said about Kenny and this trade - just wondering what some of you will think if we don't win it all this year.

AFter all, we gave up A LOT of the future.
Of course people won't like it. But they'll still praise KW's "aggresiveness" and "going for the jugular," which has worked out just great since he became GM, right? Oh, wait. We haven't made the playoffs since KW's been GM.

beckett21
06-27-2004, 10:57 PM
will those of you who like this Garcia trade still like it? I'll admit, if this trade wins us the WS, I'll take back every bad thing I said about Kenny and this trade - just wondering what some of you will think if we don't win it all this year.

AFter all, we gave up A LOT of the future.
I feel that our chances for this year have improved.

There are a lot of factors involved in actually winning the World Series, so falling short of that would not change my opinion. I now feel we have a more formidable rotation to allow us the opportunity to go deep into the playoffs. That's all one can ask for. Now the whole team, Garcia included, needs to perform. But Garcia is a big piece of the puzzle.

beckett21
06-27-2004, 10:59 PM
We haven't made the playoffs since KW's been GM.
I'm afraid that little refrain will be obsolete after this season. :cool:

JRIG
06-27-2004, 11:05 PM
I'm afraid that little refrain will be obsolete after this season. :cool:
We shall see, we shall see. If we make the World Series this year -- we don't even have to win it -- I'll take back every bad thing I've ever said about KW. In the meantime, I don't think he's earned the benefit of the doubt on these type of deals -- Ritchie, Wells, Koch...

beckett21
06-27-2004, 11:08 PM
We shall see, we shall see. If we make the World Series this year -- we don't even have to win it -- I'll take back every bad thing I've ever said about KW. In the meantime, I don't think he's earned the benefit of the doubt on these type of deals -- Ritchie, Wells, Koch...
I too agree that results are what counts. We'll know in a few months.

StockdaleForVeep
06-27-2004, 11:09 PM
Should we not make the world series or even playoffs, i wont hate this trade. Olivo was a stud catcher but burke is showing hes a great offensive player. Every time i seem to put on the game and see him at bat he gets rbis. Ben davis is a decent catcher and sandy is sandy and can coach em some more. Garcia only strengthens this team, regardless of who we give up

Remember a prospect is a prospect, doesnt guarentee you anything. It means nothing till they prove themselve in mlb play

nitetrain8601
06-27-2004, 11:12 PM
MrKano you'll now have to change your sig so it includes Freddy-G, baby!!! I still will like this deal if we don't win the WS. As long as Freddy does his job and we win, that's all I can ask. KW is trying. The Sox as an orginazation is trying hard to compete. KW is not trying to acquire bootleg players. He's trying to go after anyone he can. I would not like this deal if he didn't resign, but him being engaged with Ozzie's daughter will probably mean he does. Else no familey visits for him:angry: .

South Side
06-27-2004, 11:14 PM
MrKano you'll now have to change your sig so it includes Freddy-G, baby!!! I still will like this deal if we don't win the WS. As long as Freddy does his job and we win, that's all I can ask. KW is trying. The Sox as an orginazation is trying hard to compete. KW is not trying to acquire bootleg players. He's trying to go after anyone he can. I would not like this deal if he didn't resign, but him being engaged with Ozzie's daughter will probably mean he does. Else no familey visits for him:angry: .
Ozzie's daughter? I thought he said to one of his kid's friend who was LIKE a daughter?

lowesox
06-28-2004, 01:36 AM
I'm afraid that little refrain will be obsolete after this season. :cool:
I'm not so sure. Let me go on the record as saying I think this trade makes this team worse right now - meaning, take Jeremy Reed out and we still lose this trade in my eyes.

jeremyb1
06-28-2004, 01:46 AM
I'm happy that KW is trying to win now, rather than a few years from now. And really, who's to say Reed will ever amount to anything? Remember the great Brian Simmons who was supposed to be our centerfielder of the future?

This is exactly what I'm talking about. No one who had any clue whatsoever ever thought Brian Simmons could be anything more than an average outfielder at best and that's probably being generous. The fact that some idiot on a message board or the local sports page made a comment to that degree OR that you were unable to temper your expectations about a prospect with "upside" you heard about in the organization HAS NO REFLECTION ON REED'S FUTURE!!! I could easily list a number of reasons that the two players are absolutely nothing alike. As a said in another thread I challenge you or any other poster to find a White Sox prospect as good as Reed since Frank Thomas. Find me a prospect anywhere near as good as Reed that didn't pan out or even one (Carlos for instance perhaps) that became good that was anywhere near as good a prospect as Reed.

doublem23
06-28-2004, 01:54 AM
Say what you will, but I'll take a team with Freddy Garcia over a team with Jeremy Reed in AAA. I said it in the other thread, too... When you haven't won the World Series since 1917, having a team in your system that won the AAA championship just doesn't make it feel better.

MRKARNO
06-28-2004, 01:57 AM
MrKano you'll now have to change your sig so it includes Freddy-G, baby!!!
I just did, but thanks for the heads up! Now the only question is whether Rauch or Diaz is the one deleted from that line

inta
06-28-2004, 01:58 AM
I'm not so sure. Let me go on the record as saying I think this trade makes this team worse right now - meaning, take Jeremy Reed out and we still lose this trade in my eyes.
please explain how
?

this tightened up our pitching IMMENSELY while detracting next to nothing from our offense.

MRKARNO
06-28-2004, 02:00 AM
As a said in another thread I challenge you or any other poster to find a White Sox prospect as good as Reed since Frank Thomas. Find me a prospect anywhere near as good as Reed that didn't pan out or even one (Carlos for instance perhaps) that became good that was anywhere near as good a prospect as Reed. Rauch was a very highly valued prospect before his Torn Labrum surgery, probably about as good as Reed. Oh wait, I know you're reply, "TINSTAAPP"

Reed wasnt even a very good prospect until last year. Maybe that .400 in AA was just a matter of small sample size?

jeremyb1
06-28-2004, 02:31 AM
Rauch was a very highly valued prospect before his Torn Labrum surgery, probably about as good as Reed. Oh wait, I know you're reply, "TINSTAAPP"

Reed wasnt even a very good prospect until last year. Maybe that .400 in AA was just a matter of small sample size?

Well again I think comparing young pitchers versus young hitters is insane. Labrum surgery basically ruins the careers of almost any pitcher it effects while no such injury really exists for position players.

Reed only had 220 plate appearances prior to last season so of course he wasn't a very good prospect. He wasn't a prospect at all because he hadn't played yet. In those 220 at bats he hit .320 and walked at a strong clip so he did nothing to hurt his prospect status. Prior to that he was drafted in the second round after a highly successful three seasons at Long Beach State. This season is probably the most he's ever struggled in his entire career but he is at the closest level to the majors and may or may not be suffering from his previous wrist injury so I don't think it's a huge concern.

Batting .400 wasn't a huge sample size (270 PA) but it wasn't tiny and what if it was a fluke? He should've only hit .370. Hehe. He couldn't have hit that far over his head. His peripherals were good and he hit .319 and .333 at the two stops prior to that with strong plate discipline (.431 OBP!!!).

A. Cavatica
06-28-2004, 08:22 AM
Rauch was a very highly valued prospect before his Torn Labrum surgery, probably about as good as Reed. Oh wait, I know you're reply, "TINSTAAPP"

Reed wasnt even a very good prospect until last year. Maybe that .400 in AA was just a matter of small sample size?
Rauch had a serious injury. You can't compare his projections to his play after the injury. And yes, if Reed gets injured he might never play a day in the major leagues.

Guess what? Garcia could get injured too. And then we'd be left with Ben Davis for Olivo and Reed.

As for Reed's sample size last year, his combined average from A and AA (a full season) was .373 -- highest in all the minors. But it's not just the average that impressed me, it's everything else: plate judgment, power, baserunning, defense, hustle. He has such a well-rounded, mature game, that he's never going to be benched even if he has a batting slump.

Furthermore, he's strongest where the Sox are weakest: getting on base, and power from the left side.

white sox bill
06-28-2004, 09:43 AM
In todays baseball enviroment, team dynasties are a thing of the past. The way players come & go, salary considerations and so on, when you see a chance to win and win today you take it. Tomorrow may never come. Back in '96, don't you wish we woulda unloaded Scott Ruffcorn and a few other "can't miss" prospects? Sure, we we sucked that yr, just an example.

jabrch
06-28-2004, 09:49 AM
This was a deal we had to do and if we could just get to the ALCS, I would be ecsatic. If we won the pennant, then forget the future. We havent done that in 45 years! The fact that we are going for it is great I think.
DITTO - 100%

Dan H
06-28-2004, 10:22 AM
I have been hearing about the future for a long time. The Sox needed pitching and they had to give up something to get it. I don't want to hear anything about the future. Cub fans are into a future that never happens. Great trade.

lowesox
06-28-2004, 10:38 AM
I find it interesting how sold everybody is that this team will make the playoffs. Hasn't everybody seen how awful they've played in the last week? And the Twins really do look like a better team right now. Our biggest weakness is our bullpen. If we had got Soriano back in this trade, I think it wouldn't have been such a fleecing, but we didn't.

I hope we make the playoffs, but judging by what we've seen lately, I'm skeptical.

VenturaSoxFan23
06-28-2004, 10:54 AM
I find it interesting how sold everybody is that this team will make the playoffs. Hasn't everybody seen how awful they've played in the last week? And the Twins really do look like a better team right now. Our biggest weakness is our bullpen. If we had got Soriano back in this trade, I think it wouldn't have been such a fleecing, but we didn't.

I hope we make the playoffs, but judging by what we've seen lately, I'm skeptical.

I've always said that back in 2000, "If we were matched against the Yankees instead of the Mariners, we'd be playing for the pennant." This team is better than the Central Division champions of 2000.
We have to beat the AL West to get anywhere. We need to show up against teams like Cleveland and Detroit instead of taking them lightly. Pitching and hitting should be working together. They have to get in that rhythm again.

Maximo
06-28-2004, 11:07 AM
As has been stated many times by some of the older members of this forum........time is running out for a lot of us. Personally, I've been waiting for the future since 1959.

Somehow.....in spite of their lack of activity to acquire help during the off-season... the Sox find themselves still in the position to win something. I don't care if part of the reason is that the AL Central is weak.....they have an opportunity to take the division and advance quite far into the playoffs. The acquisition of Garcia gives makes that possiblity even better. We weren't going to hit ourselves into the World Series.

Losing Olivo is tough....I remember Earl Battey. Say what you want about Reed, but he was a prospect....that's all. If they both go on to be Hall of Famers, so be it. But that's tomorrow.....always tomorrow.......and with the history of the Sox organization, tomorrow never comes.

Kenny is doubling down with a soft 18 against the dealer's 6 on this one. I say go for it. As a matter of fact, if you can pull one more starting pitcher out of someone's bag, then do that too.

The time is now.....especially with the Cubs ready to take over sole control of Chicago baseball. Should the Sox let them do that....all the Reeds and Olivos in the world won't make a helluva lot of difference.

lowesox
06-28-2004, 11:35 AM
As has been stated many times by some of the older members of this forum........time is running out for a lot of us. Personally, I've been waiting for the future since 1959. Great post Maximo, you really did put a lot into perspective for me. But the thing is, I think everybody at WSI and their brother is happy to see that the Sox are trying to get better. I think though, some of us think that it could have been done without giving up quite so much. Kenny overpays for players because he's not patient. I'm happy to see Garcia here, but I really believe another GM could have brought him or an equally effective pitcher here for far less.

We still need 2 solid bullpen arms and I'm very nervous of who we'll give up for them.

A. Cavatica
06-28-2004, 12:18 PM
I think though, some of us think that it could have been done without giving up quite so much. Kenny overpays for players because he's not patient. I'm happy to see Garcia here, but I really believe another GM could have brought him or an equally effective pitcher here for far less.
Well said, lowesox.

Compare what Kenny gave up for Garcia with what he got for Ray Durham when the shoe was on the other foot.

maurice
06-28-2004, 02:47 PM
KW definitely overpaid to get the deal done early and to keep Garcia away from other teams. He also created a big hole at C, which he will need to fill with somebody from outside of the Sox system.

If we win the WS with Garcia at the top of the rotation, nobody should ever complain about this trade. If we make the playoffs and resign Garcia, it's a decent deal. If we miss the playoffs and don't resign him, it's an unmitigated disaster. As in all things, time will tell.

JRIG
06-28-2004, 02:54 PM
Well said, lowesox.

Compare what Kenny gave up for Garcia with what he got for Ray Durham when the shoe was on the other foot.
Or what the Royals got for Carlos Beltran, a superior player.