PDA

View Full Version : Thoughts about the trade......


chisox1388
06-27-2004, 06:55 PM
When I first heard the trade, I was very upset to see we gave up Olivo. I knew that Reed (whose value is at a high and will probably not be a superstar) was going to be included in any deal that we would make for a good starter, but giving up a possible star catcher and a young power hitting SS(Morse)? But thinking about it, if Davis can hold down the catching duties for two more years, Donald Lucy (the catcher we just drafted from Stanford) should be ready, who I absolutely love and sounds like he has the same tool set as Olivo (Great defense and arm, some speed, big hitting potential). And if we can resign Garcia, which sounds like we have a very good chance to do, it would give us another really strong pitcher for the next 4-5 years.

Tragg
06-27-2004, 07:01 PM
There's probably a 75% chance that a player we just drafted won't pan out- just the odds. Miguel himself too a few years and we got him with some minor league experience under his belt.

I like Miguel, but after simmering down, he wasn't an offensive "force" so his loss probably won't be felt this year.

Does anyone have any info on Davis?

valposoxfan
06-27-2004, 07:04 PM
There's probably a 75% chance that a player we just drafted won't pan out- just the odds. Miguel himself too a few years and we got him with some minor league experience under his belt.

I like Miguel, but after simmering down, he wasn't an offensive "force" so his loss probably won't be felt this year.

Does anyone have any info on Davis?
I was so sad to hear Miguel was traded but after thinking about it for awhile I realize that this is a good deal. We have a ton of talented outfielders in our system including Brian Anderson who I think will be a great player, and we really needed a pitcher to shore up the staff. Ozzie and him are best friends and this could be a sort of "renaissance" for Freddy when all is said and done. I trust KW did what was best and I believe that this will pan out well. We just have to get healthy now.

Brian26
06-27-2004, 07:05 PM
There's probably a 75% chance that a player we just drafted won't pan out- just the odds.
Just remember, Mark Johnson was our #1 draft pick in 1994.

mendozaln
06-27-2004, 07:24 PM
Does anyone have any info on Davis?
Be careful what you wish for. Davis was a top draft pick and considered a very good prospect, but he's been a complete bust, getting worse every year. This season he's hitting less than most pitchers do (0.091). That's a small sample size, 33 abs, but that's b/c Seattle finally gave up on him. Seattle and basically everyone else who was watching. Despite being awful, he's getting $1.4 mil this year. Hopefully that's ALL covered by the cash we get from Seattle (???).

FoulkeTheIndians
06-27-2004, 07:26 PM
But thinking about it, if Davis can hold down the catching duties for two more years, Donald Lucy (the catcher we just drafted from Stanford) should be ready, who I absolutely love and sounds like he has the same tool set as Olivo (Great defense and arm, some speed, big hitting potential).
I'll be the first to admit that I don't know all that much about Davis, but I sure hope he gets the job done. If he can be semi-productive for the next few years, then we got the best of this deal.

I know Donnie Lucy personally (he lived across the hall from me my freshman year of college) so I'm totally biased, but I think he'll be ready to go in a few years. He is just like Miguel, fast, strong arm, but with more power. I'm excited to see what he does when he gets his shot.

That said, Miguel was quickly developing into one of the best catchers in the game. He'll be deeply missed and I hope he does well in Seattle (just not agisnt us!).

Lip Man 1
06-27-2004, 08:56 PM
The knock on Davis from a story on him in Sports Illustrated two years ago was that he was 'lazy,' and concerned himself more with his off the field interests (He's worked as a model)

He's a physical specium built like a linebacker but he's just not a good baseball player. For the past few years the Mariners were hoping he'd take Dan Wilson's job. It never happened. At best he's a career backup.

Lip

fuzzy_patters
06-27-2004, 09:08 PM
Why isn't anyone talking about the cash? I think that could be the most important part of this trade. That cash might have been the extra cash KW needed to resign Maggs or pull off a bigger trade. I do not think we can judge this deal until we see what the next move is.

Daver
06-27-2004, 09:10 PM
KW, for I beleive the first time, did something different, he dealt from a position of weakness instead of strength. In the past he has always traded from a position the Sox minor league system was strong in, this time he did not, the Sox have nothing in the minors for catching. I have not seen Donny Lucy play, but it would appear that he is closer to the majors than first expected.

Either that or Kenny is working on a trade for another catcher.

lowesox
06-27-2004, 09:33 PM
It's sad that so many of you think it's ok that we overpaid because we have other potential young talent. You're supposed to get equal talent for what you give up, otherwise, the franchise's cummulative value goes down. That happened with this trade.

I predict this will be Kenny's worst trade yet. Who would've guessed some of his other ones could be outdone?

FarWestChicago
06-27-2004, 09:37 PM
It's sad that so many of you think it's ok that we overpaid because we have other potential young talent. You're supposed to get equal talent for what you give up, otherwise, the franchise's cummulative value goes down. That happened with this trade.

I predict this will be Kenny's worst trade yet. Who would've guessed some of his other ones could be outdone?Yes, you're so much smarter than everybody else.

:whatever:

Tragg
06-27-2004, 09:49 PM
It's sad that so many of you think it's ok that we overpaid because we have other potential young talent. You're supposed to get equal talent for what you give up, otherwise, the franchise's cummulative value goes down. That happened with this trade.

I predict this will be Kenny's worst trade yet. Who would've guessed some of his other ones could be outdone?I'm not sold on this trade myself. BUT I don't think anyone said that we overpaid or that we should overpay from a position of depth. We traded a starter for a starter- we got the better starter so we threw in 2 prospects (one real prospect) and probably got one of their stiffs in return. If we overpaid, it wasn't by much.

The problem isn't that we gave up unfair value but we have nothing to replace what we gave up.

That said, I don't think it's that hard to find a mark johnston type to catch twice a week. It certainly would be nice to find one who can hit, but Olivo wasnt' a good hitter either (yet- I realize scouts believe he will hit- but it wouldn't be this year).
I'd like to see getting a cheap catcher and finding a lefty stick somewhere.

Nellie Comiskey
06-27-2004, 11:00 PM
my initial reaction to the trade was not favorable....I really like Olivo. He was the first "somewhat" homegrown(obtained in trade for Chad Bradford but really developed/blossomed in Sox org). He was very solid and getting better with time. It appears that Bavasi used the advice of Bob Fontaine to raid the Sox system. However, if this trade helps bring a world championship to the southside I obviously have no problem. And if a world championship occurs followed by a handful of years of mediocrity no problem....I want the Sox to be champs period end of sentence. We will find out soon enough if the Sox overpaid. I definitely, even today, have no problem with KW's '03 Everett & Alomar trades and his willingness to go after it and gamble on grabbing the brass ring. This one is a little tougher to stomach.
As noted in other threads, a deal had to be done for the Sox hopes to stay afloat(Shoenwis with tired arm).
I hope KW is done....I think we are good enough to play with this hand (of cards) the rest of the way.
:D:

BigMo
06-27-2004, 11:18 PM
Crap now I have to change my screen name after this trade.

South Side
06-27-2004, 11:23 PM
Crap now I have to change my screen name after this trade.
Nah, keep it in memory of him. :(:

Dadawg_77
06-27-2004, 11:42 PM
Why isn't anyone talking about the cash? I think that could be the most important part of this trade. That cash might have been the extra cash KW needed to resign Maggs or pull off a bigger trade. I do not think we can judge this deal until we see what the next move is.
Well if you look at the cash it negates the cash given to the Marlins in the Koch deal. So the Sox lost Koch, Reed, Olivo for Valdez, Davis and Garcia.

StepsInSC
06-27-2004, 11:49 PM
It's sad that so many of you think it's ok that we overpaid because we have other potential young talent. You're supposed to get equal talent for what you give up, otherwise, the franchise's cummulative value goes down. That happened with this trade.

I predict this will be Kenny's worst trade yet. Who would've guessed some of his other ones could be outdone?
I think its sad that you can jump all over something which will obviously take time for the full ramifications to become visible.

Furthermore, with the Yankees and BoSox being the front runners for Garcia (according to Gammons all this time) Garcia's value is going to be higher. He was the best pitcher on the market. As a fan of a certain team it can be hard to judge what is fair and what's not, honestly I think it is impossible for any of us to truly be objective and make a fair assessment of this deal.

TaylorStSox
06-27-2004, 11:54 PM
I think its sad that you can jump all over something which will obviously take time for the full ramifications to become visible.

Furthermore, with the Yankees and BoSox being the front runners for Garcia (according to Gammons all this time) Garcia's value is going to be higher. He was the best pitcher on the market. As a fan of a certain team it can be hard to judge what is fair and what's not, honestly I think it is impossible for any of us to truly be objective and make a fair assessment of this deal.

The Yankees don't have a whole lot to give up. Even though they can afford everybody, Cashman has to be very creative to get anything done.

gobears1987
06-28-2004, 12:08 AM
I personally like Olivo and am sad to see him go, but I see this trade as one that will greatly benifit our Sox. We need pitching and this helps. If we want to be a contender, this is what we had to do.

There is also another bright side here, that means there is no deal with the Braves and Mags isn't going anywhere. I think Burke can be a good catcher. I like what I'm seeing there and Alomar is good at calling pitches. We are fine now. I mean, Olivo had not offensive pop.

NOW LETS GO KILL SOME TWINS!!!

kittle545feet
06-28-2004, 12:09 AM
i just wanna go on the record here as being against this trade. i can see the obvious that we now have another good starter, but i think we plugged one hole and opened another. sure garcia has a decent 3.20 era this year but the 2 previous seasons he was over 4.50 and having one year where he won 18 games. now, he played on some great mariner teams and with that in mind, i think his numbers should have been better. yes, this year they are but he never seemed to be the stud everyone says he is. as for olivo, i think we just traded one of the best catchers we have since fisk. he seemed tobe getting better every game and he has yet to reach his full potential. great arm, great speed, good situational hitter, great bunter, calls a good game, all around good defensive catcher and getting better. the same could be said about his hitting. take a look at his numbers and realize those are from limited action. sure we have a better staff now, but we are truly weak at catcher. i think this one will come back to haunt us. reed was ranked on many lists as the number one prospect in baseball. just seems like a lot to give up for someone of garcia's talents.:?:

gobears1987
06-28-2004, 12:11 AM
Garcia's win-loss record is crappy because he gets no run support. The most important number here is his ERA, which beats any Sox starter, including our two aces.

If he can keep pitching the way he has he can become one of the best pitchers if not the best on our team. KW regained some of the faith lost in previous moves.

OurBitchinMinny
06-28-2004, 12:32 AM
I like that KW has the balls to go out and try and make the team better. You cant say he just sits on his hands. This trade will likely benefit us for the rest of the year. I am upset that olivo had to be included and I think he could be pretty damn good. Reed was expendable. He wasnt tearing it up at AAA this year and we have other outfield prospects. Dont know much about morse, but reading Walkers comments, he may be a big loss too. Ben Davis? Not too thrilled about him. We gave up an awful lot and are weak at C, but at least something got done. Who leaves the rotation? IM guessing Diaz for now, although he pitched a quality game Sat.

TaylorStSox
06-28-2004, 12:42 AM
Garcia's win-loss record is crappy because he gets no run support. The most important number here is his ERA, which beats any Sox starter, including our two aces.

If he can keep pitching the way he has he can become one of the best pitchers if not the best on our team. KW regained some of the faith lost in previous moves.
It's not like I don't understand the value of ERA. I was a bit over the top. I realize that. However, I feel that really good pitchers find a way to win games. Also, really good pitchers might have a somewhat inflated ERA because they throw strikes when their team is ahead.

Some guys have a knack for winning, even on poor teams. Garcia doesn't have that quality. He's not a true ace. He can't shut you down when your team's struggling at the plate. He'll effectively eat up innings but he's not going to shut anyone down in the big game. I hope I'm wrong but I don't see it.

I can't understand why so many people are dismissing the importance of a dominant catcher. Is a catcher like Olivo worth a 3 starter? I don't think so. Then, you throw in one of our 4 big OF's, the one that was MLPoY, and this trade looks bad.

We really hurt our future for a guy that doesn't make us an instant contender. Every independent site I've been on has agreed. We gave up too much.


Another thing that I don't like is shaking up chemistry. It would have been different if Olivo was still in AA. He's contributing well now. You don't move position players that are playing well to improve your team. You move prospects.

It's bad I tell ya. We gave up alot. I'm 25. I don't buy this tradition of losing crap. I can take waiting if it means having a constant contender. I don't want to get into the playoffs and be out in the division series.

You guys think Estaban's gonna shut teams down in the playoff's? Do you trust Garland? This is bad guys.

freshdill
06-28-2004, 01:00 AM
However, I feel that really good pitchers find a way to win games.
Freddy Garcia is 10th among active pitchers in win-loss percentage. I'd say that's finding a way to win games.

Also, really good pitchers might have a somewhat inflated ERA because they throw strikes when their team is ahead.
Wh-?

I can't understand why so many people are dismissing the importance of a dominant catcher.
Nobody is dismissing the importance of a dominant catcher. Miguel Olivo is a long, long, LONG way from being a dominant catcher.

We really hurt our future for a guy that doesn't make us an instant contender. Every independent site I've been on has agreed.
I presume these are the same independent sites you and everybody else in here rails on because they don't pay attention to the Sox. Yep, they're qualified to comment.

I'm 25. I don't buy this tradition of losing crap. I can take waiting if it means having a constant contender.
You don't have to buy the tradition of losing crap if you don't want to. That doesn't mean it isn't true. I probably thought the same way when I was 15. And 20. And 25. And 30. And 31. And 32. And 33...

You guys think Estaban's gonna shut teams down in the playoff's? Do you trust Garland?
Nope, which is EXACTLY why we made a trade for a guy with significantly better stats than either of those guys. Sheesh!

nasox
06-28-2004, 01:26 AM
Nah, keep it in memory of him. :(:
You could just change your explanation of why you have BigMo. Maybe...BigMo as in Big$
:payrod
"I like that idea"

gobears1987
06-28-2004, 01:32 AM
When my only objection to this trade is sentimental feelings for Miguel you realize that this can be a good trade.

Garcia has a good ERA and if the Sox can give him the usual run support we can have a 20 game winner. Seattle couldn't give it to him. His ERA would make him the ace of the squad. He is 5th in the AL right now.

CWSGuy406
06-28-2004, 01:54 AM
It's not like I don't understand the value of ERA. I was a bit over the top. I realize that. However, I feel that really good pitchers find a way to win games. Also, really good pitchers might have a somewhat inflated ERA because they throw strikes when their team is ahead.

Some guys have a knack for winning, even on poor teams. Garcia doesn't have that quality. He's not a true ace. He can't shut you down when your team's struggling at the plate. He'll effectively eat up innings but he's not going to shut anyone down in the big game. I hope I'm wrong but I don't see it.

I can't understand why so many people are dismissing the importance of a dominant catcher. Is a catcher like Olivo worth a 3 starter? I don't think so. Then, you throw in one of our 4 big OF's, the one that was MLPoY, and this trade looks bad.

We really hurt our future for a guy that doesn't make us an instant contender. Every independent site I've been on has agreed. We gave up too much.


Another thing that I don't like is shaking up chemistry. It would have been different if Olivo was still in AA. He's contributing well now. You don't move position players that are playing well to improve your team. You move prospects.

It's bad I tell ya. We gave up alot. I'm 25. I don't buy this tradition of losing crap. I can take waiting if it means having a constant contender. I don't want to get into the playoffs and be out in the division series.

You guys think Estaban's gonna shut teams down in the playoff's? Do you trust Garland? This is bad guys.
If you're saying Garcia is our number 3 - putting up a 3.20 ERA or so, damn, I can't wait to see what our number 2 and number 1 starters are going to do!

I'm giddy I tell ya, I'm giddy! :bandance: