PDA

View Full Version : Breaking News: Braves Confirm Trade Talks


jabrch
06-27-2004, 01:39 PM
Braves pregame confirms talk about a big deal which would be Orondez and "pitching prospects" for Jones and Ortiz. They said that Sox scouts were at Atlanta on Saturday, but not Friday. They saw Ortiz pitch a gem of a game yesterday. Scheuholtz and KW are talking and there is a chance something could happen this week.

So lets say the deal is Rauch and Ordonez for Jones and Ortiz?

If I'm KW/JR, I give Magglio one more chance. Here it is - your best offer. The best you would get from us today, tomorrow or any time in the future. [over exaggeration of the harshness] It is, at this point, non-negotiable. You have 24 hours to talk it over with your family and your representation. By noon on Monday, if you do not accept this deal, as is, you will be the starting RF for the Atlanta Braves.

I'm in. At this point, if Ordonez doesn't want to take what we are willing to offer him (provided that is a fair amount of money based on the Garrett Anderson contract) then we need to do something to help us both today and in the futrure. Ortiz is a solid #3 who could be a decent #2 if he is on. I'd do this deal - provided Magglio says he won't take 4/48.

CWSGuy406
06-27-2004, 01:40 PM
Ugh - this is not a good trade at all...

JRIG
06-27-2004, 01:43 PM
Braves pregame confirms talk about a big deal which would be Orondez and "pitching prospects" for Jones and Ortiz. They said that Sox scouts were at Atlanta on Saturday, but not Friday. They saw Ortiz pitch a gem of a game yesterday. Scheuholtz and KW are talking and there is a chance something could happen this week.

So lets say the deal is Rauch and Ordonez for Jones and Ortiz?

If I'm KW/JR, I give Magglio one more chance. Here it is - your best offer. The best you would get from us today, tomorrow or any time in the future. [over exaggeration of the harshness] It is, at this point, non-negotiable. You have 24 hours to talk it over with your family and your representation. By noon on Monday, if you do not accept this deal, as is, you will be the starting RF for the Atlanta Braves.

I'm in. At this point, if Ordonez doesn't want to take what we are willing to offer him (provided that is a fair amount of money based on the Garrett Anderson contract) then we need to do something to help us both today and in the futrure. Ortiz is a solid #3 who could be a decent #2 if he is on. I'd do this deal - provided Magglio says he won't take 4/48.
I changed the headline to make it a bit more clear.

On a related note, I like this deal quite a bit.

owensmouth
06-27-2004, 01:45 PM
Why is it that people are willing to pay Andrew Jones 13.5 million, but only 12 million to Magglio?

WinningUgly!
06-27-2004, 01:48 PM
Why is it that people are willing to pay Andrew Jones 13.5 million, but only 12 million to Magglio?
Maggs is getting 14 million right now.

WSox8404
06-27-2004, 01:50 PM
Braves pregame confirms talk about a big deal which would be Orondez and "pitching prospects" for Jones and Ortiz. They said that Sox scouts were at Atlanta on Saturday, but not Friday. They saw Ortiz pitch a gem of a game yesterday. Scheuholtz and KW are talking and there is a chance something could happen this week.

So lets say the deal is Rauch and Ordonez for Jones and Ortiz?

If I'm KW/JR, I give Magglio one more chance. Here it is - your best offer. The best you would get from us today, tomorrow or any time in the future. [over exaggeration of the harshness] It is, at this point, non-negotiable. You have 24 hours to talk it over with your family and your representation. By noon on Monday, if you do not accept this deal, as is, you will be the starting RF for the Atlanta Braves.

I'm in. At this point, if Ordonez doesn't want to take what we are willing to offer him (provided that is a fair amount of money based on the Garrett Anderson contract) then we need to do something to help us both today and in the futrure. Ortiz is a solid #3 who could be a decent #2 if he is on. I'd do this deal - provided Magglio says he won't take 4/48.

I like it. I think Jones, hitting in this lineup, would see his average jump at least 40 points. And his power numbers at the cell would be the same as Mags. Bring it on!!

idseer
06-27-2004, 01:52 PM
Maggs is getting 14 million right now.
well ... only technically, right? i mean, if you look at the lopsided contract he signed he's really being paid an average of like 8 or 9 mil for 3 years?

owensmouth
06-27-2004, 01:52 PM
Maggs is getting 14 million right now.
Yes, and he wants five more years at the same price. From everything I've read so far, the Sox offer was for 4 years at 12 million. Taking on Jones we'd be paying more than we've offered Maggs for a similar amount of time.

idseer
06-27-2004, 01:53 PM
also, some on 'another board' is saying williams is denying that magglio is a part of these particular talks. maybe they're just talking about our young guys?

Philo-Sox-er
06-27-2004, 01:54 PM
Switching leagues might take some time for Jones to get to know pitchers, and vice versa I suppose...


I think this is a very fair deal--that is why I am having such a hard time deciding if I like it or not. I'd prefer if we were fleecing them and gettign a whole lot in return...

I say we give Maggs one more chance to accept an offer; he is one of my favorite players.

viagracat
06-27-2004, 01:55 PM
Braves pregame confirms talk about a big deal which would be Orondez and "pitching prospects" for Jones and Ortiz. They said that Sox scouts were at Atlanta on Saturday, but not Friday. They saw Ortiz pitch a gem of a game yesterday. Scheuholtz and KW are talking and there is a chance something could happen this week.

So lets say the deal is Rauch and Ordonez for Jones and Ortiz?

If I'm KW/JR, I give Magglio one more chance. Here it is - your best offer. The best you would get from us today, tomorrow or any time in the future. [over exaggeration of the harshness] It is, at this point, non-negotiable. You have 24 hours to talk it over with your family and your representation. By noon on Monday, if you do not accept this deal, as is, you will be the starting RF for the Atlanta Braves.

I'm in. At this point, if Ordonez doesn't want to take what we are willing to offer him (provided that is a fair amount of money based on the Garrett Anderson contract) then we need to do something to help us both today and in the futrure. Ortiz is a solid #3 who could be a decent #2 if he is on. I'd do this deal - provided Magglio says he won't take 4/48.
I guess it depends on Ordonez's position, which of course I'm not privy to. If he has stated to Williams that he absolutely will not re-sign with the White Sox, it makes more sense to get something for him now instead of nothing at all for him when he leaves for free agency this winter. Ortiz and Jones doesn't sound bad, but I would go for it if and only if Maggs has explicitly stated he is not coming back next year under any circumstances.

Lip Man 1
06-27-2004, 01:56 PM
Here's my take...

By all accounts (including comments from Maggs himself to the Southtown's Joe Cowley) he is leaving after this year.

I'm not going to get into why he's leaving... we'll discuss that at another time but the bottom line is that if you keeps Maggs now, next season the Sox are going to need a quality right fielder AND a quality center fielder.

If you make the trade you'll have Jones for next season, maybe two seasons, I don't know the terms of his contract. That means you only have to try to find a new quality right fielder (no not Aaron Rowand or Ross Gload.)

Russ Ortiz is a free agent after the season and I think it's safe to say the Sox are going to lose him as well since they don't re-sign their free agent pitchers especially when they want to be compensated accordingly for pitching being at a premium. However they still get him for the rest of this season and who knows, maybe a miracle can take place and they can lock him up next year.

So you get at least a half season from Ortiz plus at least a year and a half (maybe more) from Jones in exchange for a half season from Maggs.

If you do the math there's no question the Sox have to do the deal.

I don't like it but there it is.

Like I said we'll discuss the reasons why Maggs was going to leave when he actually departs and the facts start to come out.

Lip

South Side
06-27-2004, 01:57 PM
Braves pregame confirms talk about a big deal which would be Orondez and "pitching prospects" for Jones and Ortiz. They said that Sox scouts were at Atlanta on Saturday, but not Friday. They saw Ortiz pitch a gem of a game yesterday. Scheuholtz and KW are talking and there is a chance something could happen this week.

So lets say the deal is Rauch and Ordonez for Jones and Ortiz?

If I'm KW/JR, I give Magglio one more chance. Here it is - your best offer. The best you would get from us today, tomorrow or any time in the future. [over exaggeration of the harshness] It is, at this point, non-negotiable. You have 24 hours to talk it over with your family and your representation. By noon on Monday, if you do not accept this deal, as is, you will be the starting RF for the Atlanta Braves.

I'm in. At this point, if Ordonez doesn't want to take what we are willing to offer him (provided that is a fair amount of money based on the Garrett Anderson contract) then we need to do something to help us both today and in the futrure. Ortiz is a solid #3 who could be a decent #2 if he is on. I'd do this deal - provided Magglio says he won't take 4/48.


BOOOO!! :angry:

jabrch
06-27-2004, 02:00 PM
I changed the headline to make it a bit more clear.

On a related note, I like this deal quite a bit.

you bastard...j/k

I do too. Just a side note - Jones is from Curacao. For those not familiar with it, it is a small Dutch island just north of Venezuela. With Ozzie being a Venezuelan, and a former Brave - a former teammate of Jones, I am sure he has a relationship of some sort with him. I like this deal more and more when I think about it. If Jones can reach his potential, and succeed hitting between Frank and Carlos, while playing GG CF, this team could be awesome. RF could be a toss up for Rowand, Timo, Borchard, Reed, Gload, etc. Whomever can do it can have the spot.

Realistically, we aren't gonna come close to getting Carlos Beltran in FA. Finley is old. We don't know about Reed really being a CF, do we? He is more a corner OF. This could shore up CF for a long time to come - certainly if either the Braves would pick up a few million of salary, or Jones signs an extension to move some of the money out a few years.

I'd miss Magglio - but he is bringing this whole thing onto himself. He had (and still has) a chance to end all this talk - if he just signs a contract. If he chooses not to, this might be the best we can get for him.

WinningUgly!
06-27-2004, 02:01 PM
Yes, and he wants five more years at the same price. From everything I've read so far, the Sox offer was for 4 years at 12 million. Taking on Jones we'd be paying more than we've offered Maggs for a similar amount of time.
IMO, a GG CF that puts up the kind of offensive numbers that Andruw Jones has over the last several seasons, in a pitcher's park, is worth more money.

jabrch
06-27-2004, 02:02 PM
Actually Lip, Jones is signed through 2007. So we have him for this year, plus 3 more years - signed through his prime - until he is 31

Here's my take...

By all accounts (including comments from Maggs himself to the Southtown's Joe Cowley) he is leaving after this year.

I'm not going to get into why he's leaving... we'll discuss that at another time but the bottom line is that if you keeps Maggs now, next season the Sox are going to need a quality right fielder AND a quality center fielder.

If you make the trade you'll have Jones for next season, maybe two seasons, I don't know the terms of his contract. That means you only have to try to find a new quality right fielder (no not Aaron Rowand or Ross Gload.)

Russ Ortiz is a free agent after the season and I think it's safe to say the Sox are going to lose him as well since they don't re-sign their free agent pitchers especially when they want to be compensated accordingly for pitching being at a premium. However they still get him for the rest of this season and who knows, maybe a miracle can take place and they can lock him up next year.

So you get at least a half season from Ortiz plus at least a year and a half (maybe more) from Jones in exchange for a half season from Maggs.

If you do the math there's no question the Sox have to do the deal.

I don't like it but there it is.

Like I said we'll discuss the reasons why Maggs was going to leave when he actually departs and the facts start to come out.

Lip

JRIG
06-27-2004, 02:05 PM
Actually Lip, Jones is signed through 2007. So we have him for this year, plus 3 more years - signed through his prime - until he is 31
Yep. $12.5 next year, $13 in 2006 and $13.5 in 2007.

CHISOXFAN13
06-27-2004, 02:06 PM
IMO, a GG CF that puts up the kind of offensive numbers that Andruw Jones has over the last several seasons, in a pitcher's park, is worth more money.

Totally agree.

Jones is one of, if not, the best defensive centerfielders in the game, and he can also hit.

We shore up our defense and rotation all in one shot. Seems like a smart deal to me.

Voice of Reason
06-27-2004, 02:06 PM
I can't imagine the Braves sending us Jones for Magglio but if they did, I'd love it.

gobears1987
06-27-2004, 02:09 PM
**** NO! on this deal. Someone stop KW now. Use whatever means neccesary. I will be through if they make this ****ing trade. I would even root for the flubs if KW does this. Jones sux balls. And for what a 5-4 pitcher? I think I would rather have Rauch.:angry: :whiner: :angry:

gobears1987
06-27-2004, 02:10 PM
Totally agree.

Jones is one of, if not, the best defensive centerfielders in the game, and he can also hit.

We shore up our defense and rotation all in one shot. Seems like a smart deal to me.
If you want a defensive centerfielder look at Aaron, he has been doing well on offense too. We don't need a better defense, Mags is good, Lee is good and Rowand is awesome, apparently you didn't see Thursday's game if you think we need defense.

Flight #24
06-27-2004, 02:11 PM
Why is it that people are willing to pay Andrew Jones 13.5 million, but only 12 million to Magglio?
I think the point is that people are not willing to pay more than 14 to Maggs (the deal he's supposedly turned down). Jones is overpaid, but Maggs seems like he wants more. Not to mention that getting a solid #3 SP in Ortiz as well as Jones is a nice plus.

That said, I'd still like Maggs to stay - but if' he's going, this isn't a terrible deal.

TaylorStSox
06-27-2004, 02:12 PM
Put this in perspective guys. If this happens, we'll be trading a premier RF for the best CF in the game. Jones would hit a ton of homers in this park. The offense isn't even the biggest part. We'd be getting speed, defense and a cannnon in CF.

habibharu
06-27-2004, 02:13 PM
theres a bit more to this trade. according to levine, the braves are looking at marte, and the sox are lookin at juan cruz. i would still probably do the deal, depending on which minor leaguers were sent out

TaylorStSox
06-27-2004, 02:16 PM
I just don't see how this makes sense for Atlanta. The only way it does is if they have a deal on the table already that Maggs is willing to accept.

20 game winner (maybe worst in the mondern era) + Best CF
for
Premier RF + Prospect

I don't know. This should all be in deep pink right?

Flight #24
06-27-2004, 02:17 PM
theres a bit more to this trade. according to levine, the braves are looking at marte, and the sox are lookin at juan cruz. i would still probably do the deal, depending on which minor leaguers were sent out
that's intriguing. I hate to lose Marte, but Cruz has a ton of talent, & could be a more talented version of Shoney for next year (i.e. move him to the rotation).

Anyone know how he's pitched in relief this year?

Tragg
06-27-2004, 02:17 PM
Braves pregame confirms talk about a big deal which would be Orondez and "pitching prospects" for Jones and Ortiz. They said that Sox scouts were at Atlanta on Saturday, but not Friday.
Don't know what they were watching in Atlanta, considering that the Braves are in Baltimore.

This would be a horrible deal.
Ortiz has a bigger chance of turning into a Ritchey than a #2.
Jones has had mediocre OBPs three of the last 4 seasons and is expensive

idseer
06-27-2004, 02:17 PM
theres a bit more to this trade. according to levine, the braves are looking at marte, and the sox are lookin at juan cruz. i would still probably do the deal, depending on which minor leaguers were sent out
now see ... including marte would not thrill me at all. he's a strength in an area we're in short supply of.

TaylorStSox
06-27-2004, 02:21 PM
People's reactions really show me how much we undervalue defense.

Even without Maggs this team is an offensive powerhouse. It's not like Jones is bad at the plate. He's a 30/100 guy in a pitcher's park.

pearso66
06-27-2004, 02:21 PM
including marte for cruz scares me. Cruz has been anything but consistant up until this year, I don't know what he has done this year, but the past makes me not want him, especially if we give up marte. If we are able to get rid of say jackson with marte for cruz and another one of their bullpen guys, maybe, but I don't think that Cruz will be all that good.

jabrch
06-27-2004, 02:23 PM
including marte for cruz scares me. Cruz has been anything but consistant up until this year, I don't know what he has done this year, but the past makes me not want him, especially if we give up marte. If we are able to get rid of say jackson with marte for cruz and another one of their bullpen guys, maybe, but I don't think that Cruz will be all that good.
Now that would make it a bad deal. We don't have the extra depth in the pen to give up Marte.

jabrch
06-27-2004, 02:26 PM
**** NO! on this deal. Someone stop KW now. Use whatever means neccesary. I will be through if they make this ****ing trade. I would even root for the flubs if KW does this. Jones sux balls. And for what a 5-4 pitcher? I think I would rather have Rauch.:angry: :whiner: :angry:

Go ahead and root for the Cubs - what's that? A threat?

If you think Jones "sux balls" you obviously don't watch much baseball.

habibharu
06-27-2004, 02:26 PM
cruz's stats: 31 IP, 15 BB, 31 K, 1.55 WHIP, 3.77 ERA. not too bad.

ChiWhiteSox1337
06-27-2004, 02:28 PM
Now that would make it a bad deal. We don't have the extra depth in the pen to give up Marte. and we just signed him in the offseason to a 3 year extension at a bargain price. I'd be okay with the trade without marte in it, but if marte is in it, our bullpen is going to look awful without a lefty like marte

Philo-Sox-er
06-27-2004, 02:29 PM
If you want a defensive centerfielder look at Aaron, he has been doing well on offense too. We don't need a better defense, Mags is good, Lee is good and Rowand is awesome, apparently you didn't see Thursday's game if you think we need defense.
A. Jones currently has a Fielding percentage of: 1.000 (no errors!)
A. Rowand: .958

habibharu
06-27-2004, 02:29 PM
Go ahead and root for the Cubs - what's that? A threat?

If you think Jones "sux balls" you obviously don't watch much baseball. jones' stats for last 4 years: 03- 36 HR, 116 RBI, .277 AVG ,02-35 and 94, .264 AVG, 01- 34 and 104, .251 AVG, 00-36 and 104, .303 AVG

mrzerofan
06-27-2004, 02:31 PM
I think that this deal should be done, but don't the sox need more left handed hitting power hitters than righties? That was the whole reason why we were even interested in beltran.:smile:

:gulp:

ChiWhiteSox1337
06-27-2004, 02:32 PM
Isn't Turner Field a pitchers park? I'm sure his offensive stats would go up at the cell. His glove is amazing(i've heard experts say he's the best in CF since willie mays) and since we play the twins a lot, we know how much a GG center fielder can hurt you.

habibharu
06-27-2004, 02:32 PM
id take jones over maggs. jones is younger, better at defense, and plays CF. maggs is more consistent, but worse defensively, older, and plays a corner OF spot

Flight #24
06-27-2004, 02:33 PM
Now that would make it a bad deal. We don't have the extra depth in the pen to give up Marte.
If there's a way to get Ortiz, Cruz, Jones without giving up any ML but Maggs or Reed/Borchard/Anderson, I do it now. Cruz can be the RH middle innings guy, an dwith Coop, could be a MUCH better Shoney next year as a starter.

If we give up Marte, we need another very good lefty.

habibharu
06-27-2004, 02:38 PM
If there's a way to get Ortiz, Cruz, Jones without giving up any ML but Maggs or Reed/Borchard/Anderson, I do it now. Cruz can be the RH middle innings guy, an dwith Coop, could be a MUCH better Shoney next year as a starter.

If we give up Marte, we need another very good lefty.
:kelly "Did somebody call"?

Flight #24
06-27-2004, 02:39 PM
:kelly "Did somebody call"?

I thought about that - but isnt he on th DL for something?

soxtalker
06-27-2004, 02:39 PM
I thought this a reasonable, if not intriguing, deal until a couple of hours ago. That's when WSCR replayed an interview of an Atlanta newspaper sportswriter from earlier in the morning. His comments about Jones, while not that negative, didn't do anything to get me excited. Basically, he hasn't been playing very well -- living up to expectations -- for the past 1-1/2 years. I fear another situation like Konerko last year. And the comments about Ortiz really turned me off. He characterized Ortiz as a pitcher who manages to find a way to win 15-20 games per year, but walks a lot of people and gives up a lot of runs. The sportswriter thought that he'd be a good fit for the Sox, because we score so many runs. Experience is worth something, but it doesn't sound like an upgrade from Rauch / Diaz.

Given those characterizations, I'd rather have Maggs for half a year, Rauch, any other prospects KW is giving up, and the two draft picks that Maggs would bring. I'm not against getting something for Maggs now, though I'd prefer that we sign him. But Ortiz and Jones did not sound like anything close to sure things, and, quite frankly, most likely to have significant chances of being bad acquisitions.

habibharu
06-27-2004, 02:40 PM
I thought about that - but isnt he on th DL for something? i think he's in the minors

JRIG
06-27-2004, 02:42 PM
We don't have an answer for center field in our organization right now, except maybe Anderson or Sweeney who are still at least a season away. On the other hand, we have a ton of corner outfield guys -- Reed, Borchard, Rowand vs. LHP, etc. This seems like the reverse of the Konerko/Cameron swap. It is much tougher to find a CF who can be an impact player than a RF who can do the same.

JRIG
06-27-2004, 02:44 PM
I thought this a reasonable, if not intriguing, deal until a couple of hours ago. That's when WSCR replayed an interview of an Atlanta newspaper sportswriter from earlier in the morning. His comments about Jones, while not that negative, didn't do anything to get me excited. Basically, he hasn't been playing very well -- living up to expectations -- for the past 1-1/2 years. I fear another situation like Konerko last year. And the comments about Ortiz really turned me off. He characterized Ortiz as a pitcher who manages to find a way to win 15-20 games per year, but walks a lot of people and gives up a lot of runs. The sportswriter thought that he'd be a good fit for the Sox, because we score so many runs. Experience is worth something, but it doesn't sound like an upgrade from Rauch / Diaz.

Given those characterizations, I'd rather have Maggs for half a year, Rauch, any other prospects KW is giving up, and the two draft picks that Maggs would bring. I'm not against getting something for Maggs now, though I'd prefer that we sign him. But Ortiz and Jones did not sound like anything close to sure things, and, quite frankly, most likely to have significant chances of being bad acquisitions.
No offense, but would you believe anything our beat writers said about Sox players? Just because he's a beat writer doesn't mean he knows what's going on. We should learn a lesson from the guys in this town.

SoxxoS
06-27-2004, 02:44 PM
I think this would be a fantastic deal for the Sox. First off, CF is a harder position to fill than RF. We would be getting the best defensive CF in the past DECADE. Andrew Jones makes his LF and RF that much better as well.

Russ Ortiz is just what the doctor ordered for this rotation. A solid arm that will do more than keep us in games. He will help win them.

The only thing is, we can't trade Marte for Cruz. That would be no good. I think it's written in the baseball bible that you don't trade solid lefty relievers for OK righty relievers. I read that somewhere.

Maggs is as good as gone, so at least give me Andrew Jones until 2007.

mjmcend
06-27-2004, 02:45 PM
i think he's in the minors
He is on the DL in AAA.

Flight #24
06-27-2004, 02:46 PM
I thought this a reasonable, if not intriguing, deal until a couple of hours ago. That's when WSCR replayed an interview of an Atlanta newspaper sportswriter from earlier in the morning. His comments about Jones, while not that negative, didn't do anything to get me excited. Basically, he hasn't been playing very well -- living up to expectations -- for the past 1-1/2 years. I fear another situation like Konerko last year.
Remember, Jones was supposed to become one of the alltime greats: speed, power, GG in CF. The main area he hasnt done that in is avg. But his other stats are pretty good, and hes probably the best CF in the game bar none. Not living up it expectations is at least partly due to them being astronomical.

mmmmmbeeer
06-27-2004, 02:46 PM
I thought this a reasonable, if not intriguing, deal until a couple of hours ago. That's when WSCR replayed an interview of an Atlanta newspaper sportswriter from earlier in the morning. His comments about Jones, while not that negative, didn't do anything to get me excited. Basically, he hasn't been playing very well -- living up to expectations -- for the past 1-1/2 years. I fear another situation like Konerko last year. And the comments about Ortiz really turned me off. He characterized Ortiz as a pitcher who manages to find a way to win 15-20 games per year, but walks a lot of people and gives up a lot of runs. The sportswriter thought that he'd be a good fit for the Sox, because we score so many runs. Experience is worth something, but it doesn't sound like an upgrade from Rauch / Diaz.

Given those characterizations, I'd rather have Maggs for half a year, Rauch, any other prospects KW is giving up, and the two draft picks that Maggs would bring. I'm not against getting something for Maggs now, though I'd prefer that we sign him. But Ortiz and Jones did not sound like anything close to sure things, and, quite frankly, most likely to have significant chances of being bad acquisitions.
Of course the Atlanta media will hype up Ordonez and talk down Jones/Ortiz. Maggs is on the DL. How much good is he doing us right now?

I don't like the Juan Cruz/Marte part if there's any truth to that. Cruz's #s aren't horrible but he's also got Leo Mazzone, aka "The Miracle Worker", as a pitching coach right now. Mazzone has made improvements but Cruz is still not a complete pitcher. I question how much further Coop could take Cruz. Marte is too integral of a part of this staff to trade. That'd break the deal if I were KW. Maggs/Rauch for Ortiz/Jones is a fleecing of ATL in my opinion. And there's no rule that states that this is the only deal that can be done. I'm pretty sure KW will still be looking for another pitcher, better than Ortiz, and now has the ability to toss in a Borchard to a non-contending team.

Flight #24
06-27-2004, 02:47 PM
The only thing is, we can't trade Marte for Cruz. That would be no good. I think it's written in the baseball bible that you don't trade solid lefty relievers for OK righty relievers. I read that somewhere.


IIRC, that's from the book of relievers, 1:12:)

idseer
06-27-2004, 02:49 PM
the closer i look at aj's numbers the less impressed i am with him. it's true his prior 3 years were 30+ hr's and 100+ rbi's .... but otoh, his lifetime ops isn't very impressive .... even just during those 3 years! he also k's more than twice as often as he walks.
i know his d is supposed to be great but does oz want another long ball or nothing guy on this team?

TaylorStSox
06-27-2004, 02:53 PM
the closer i look at aj's numbers the less impressed i am with him. it's true his prior 3 years were 30+ hr's and 100+ rbi's .... but otoh, his lifetime ops isn't very impressive .... even just during those 3 years! he also k's more than twice as often as he walks.
i know his d is supposed to be great but does oz want another long ball or nothing guy on this team?
The defense negates this though. He has tremendous range and a great arm. One thing that the Sox have been terrible at over the last few years is stopping runners from taking the extra base. Jones would definitely help this. Which in turn, really helps our pitchers.

SEALgep
06-27-2004, 02:54 PM
The only way I approve that deal is if the Braves pick up a portion of Jone's salary. I'll give him $10 mill a year, but no more over the rest of his contract. That's me though.

mendozaln
06-27-2004, 02:54 PM
Lots of names are getting tossed around here, sorry to throw in another. Is there any chance Rowand would be included? I'm wondering who the Braves anticipate in CF after the trade. No way you have hypochondriac Drew in a position where he's more likely to get injured, and I'm thinking Chipper is not a good fit (plus, they may want to move him back to 3B at some point). Just curious, in case anyone's heard better rumors than I have. :smile:

(To be clear, I'm a Rowand fan, although Jones is clearly a better player. I'm not someone looking to dump Rowand, just trying to look at this from Atlanta's point of view.)

JRIG
06-27-2004, 02:58 PM
Lots of names are getting tossed around here, sorry to throw in another. Is there any chance Rowand would be included? I'm wondering who the Braves anticipate in CF after the trade. No way you have hypochondriac Drew in a position where he's more likely to get injured, and I'm thinking Chipper is not a good fit (plus, they may want to move him back to 3B at some point). Just curious, in case anyone's heard better rumors than I have. :smile:
I don't mean to single you out, but let's try to keep this thread focused on discussing the trade that has been reported. Speculation and rumor goes over in "Talking Baseball." Because this has been reported by a media outlet as fact (Braves pre-game) it stays here. But let's try not to go into speculation mode. Thanks.

soxtalker
06-27-2004, 02:58 PM
No offense, but would you believe anything our beat writers said about Sox players? Just because he's a beat writer doesn't mean he knows what's going on. We should learn a lesson from the guys in this town.
Actually, I'd pay quite a bit of attention to what our beat writers would say about Sox players. That doesn't mean that I'd take it as absolute truth, but I'd pay attention. What I heard on WSCR was a view from someone who has been watching Jones and Ortiz for awhile. No doubt, he will have his bias. But I'd like to hear what a number of people from Atlanta have to say. If there is a message board that is equivalent to WSI, we should ask for comments from their fans.

I always remember the Koch trades. When we dealt him away recently, a glance at the Marlins fans message board indicated that they were confident that they had gotten a great deal. When we traded for him, I always remember the fans from Oakland trying to tell us what we were getting. (They were unfortunately right.) What I see here is that people are citing statistics and (fairly vague) reputations. Now, I'm a stat guy, but I also want to hear from the fans and writers who have seen these players perform recently.

JRIG
06-27-2004, 03:03 PM
Actually, I'd pay quite a bit of attention to what our beat writers would say about Sox players. That doesn't mean that I'd take it as absolute truth, but I'd pay attention. What I heard on WSCR was a view from someone who has been watching Jones and Ortiz for awhile. No doubt, he will have his bias. But I'd like to hear what a number of people from Atlanta have to say. If there is a message board that is equivalent to WSI, we should ask for comments from their fans.

I always remember the Koch trades. When we dealt him away recently, a glance at the Marlins fans message board indicated that they were confident that they had gotten a great deal. When we traded for him, I always remember the fans from Oakland trying to tell us what we were getting. (They were unfortunately right.) What I see here is that people are citing statistics and (fairly vague) reputations. Now, I'm a stat guy, but I also want to hear from the fans and writers who have seen these players perform recently.
Point taken, but I would imagine you've seen both of these players in action, wheher on TBS games or in the playoffs. You can take those observations into account too. My statement is that just becaus these guys have the "beat writer" label doesn't mean their word is gospel. I think you discount what Jones and, to a lesser extent, Ortiz have produced by letting a beat writer have a huge effect on your opinion.

Just my 2 cents.

mendozaln
06-27-2004, 03:04 PM
I don't mean to single you out, but let's try to keep this thread focused on discussing the trade that has been reported. Speculation and rumor goes over in "Talking Baseball." Because this has been reported by a media outlet as fact (Braves pre-game) it stays here. But let's try not to go into speculation mode. Thanks.
I don't think this is a fair criticism. This thread starts with "let's say the deal is..." That IS speculation, not fact. Moreover, early reports stated that 7 players were involved, and the main guess has only 6 -- Maggs, Marte, and Rauch for Ortiz, Jones, and Cruz. I've also heard guesses about Wunsch, but I doubt it would be Marte and Wunsch. Isn't it fair to ask who the extra player may be, if he exists at all?

fquaye149
06-27-2004, 03:06 PM
if torii hunter played for a non-central team would you trade magglio straight up for him?

now add about 5 million a year to hunter's contract.


Is andruw jones for maggs a great deal? not really.


in the long run though, it's probably better than the nothing we'll get at the end of the year and time's a wastin'

JRIG
06-27-2004, 03:08 PM
I don't think this is a fair criticism. This thread starts with "let's say the deal is..." That IS speculation, not fact. Moreover, early reports stated that 7 players were involved, and the main guess has only 6 -- Maggs, Marte, and Rauch for Ortiz, Jones, and Cruz. I've also heard guesses about Wunsch, but I doubt it would be Marte and Wunsch. Isn't it fair to ask who the extra player may be, if he exists at all?
Yeah, OK. I went back and looked at the first post in the thread -- it's less specific than I had thought it was. Carry on.

TaylorStSox
06-27-2004, 03:09 PM
if torii hunter played for a non-central team would you trade magglio straight up for him?

now add about 5 million a year to hunter's contract.


Is andruw jones for maggs a great deal? not really.


in the long run though, it's probably better than the nothing we'll get at the end of the year and time's a wastin'
Sorry but Jones is better than Hunter at every part of the game. Hunter is Jones Lite.

Daver
06-27-2004, 03:10 PM
We don't have an answer for center field in our organization right now, except maybe Anderson or Sweeney who are still at least a season away. On the other hand, we have a ton of corner outfield guys -- Reed, Borchard, Rowand vs. LHP, etc. This seems like the reverse of the Konerko/Cameron swap. It is much tougher to find a CF who can be an impact player than a RF who can do the same.

Borchard can play center, he is more suited for RF because of his arm, not because he can't cover CF.

JRIG
06-27-2004, 03:12 PM
Borchard can play center, he is more suited for RF because of his arm, not because he can't cover CF.
Yeah, I know he can play center, and I am a big Borchard fan. As you said, I think he's probably better suited for RF, though. An outfield of Reed, Jones, and Borchard would look pretty darn good, IMO.

soxtalker
06-27-2004, 04:58 PM
Point taken, but I would imagine you've seen both of these players in action, wheher on TBS games or in the playoffs. You can take those observations into account too. My statement is that just becaus these guys have the "beat writer" label doesn't mean their word is gospel. I think you discount what Jones and, to a lesser extent, Ortiz have produced by letting a beat writer have a huge effect on your opinion.

Just my 2 cents.

I don't remember Jones and Ortiz in the play offs, so I'll take your word (and that of other WSI posters) that they have looked good there. Also, I understand that any trade is a risk. I'm sure that Colorado fans and writers would have had little good to say about Uribe. But the comments of the Atlanta sportswriter do give me reason to be concerned.

Your comments have motivated me to try to find an Atlanta equivalent of WSI. No success so far. The CBS Sportsline board is much more difficult to navigate that WSI.

California Sox
06-27-2004, 05:02 PM
Borchard can play a little center but Reed is average to slightly above and Anderson is the Torii Hunter starter kit. Granted Jones is an elite CF but at 13 million more per than any of those guys he'd better give you a lot more than defense.

Daver
06-27-2004, 05:06 PM
Borchard can play a little center but Reed is average to slightly above and Anderson is the Torii Hunter starter kit. Granted Jones is an elite CF but at 13 million more per than any of those guys he'd better give you a lot more than defense.
Reed is a converted infielder, best suited for LF.

Soxheads
06-27-2004, 05:07 PM
Reed is the LF at Charlotte...Torres plays CF....

Reed does look to be recovering somewhat after his collision and a few days off.

Soxheads
06-27-2004, 05:08 PM
Reed is a converted infielder, best suited for LF.


Yeah, what you said.... :cool:

Played 1B at LBSU, correct?

samram
06-27-2004, 05:22 PM
Reed is the LF at Charlotte...Torres plays CF....

Reed does look to be recovering somewhat after his collision and a few days off.
Actually, Reed is the CF. Torres plays CF when Reed sits. I think the Sox want him playing CF or RF because Carlos will most likely be around for at least another year.

Soxheads
06-27-2004, 05:34 PM
Actually, Reed is the CF. Torres plays CF when Reed sits. I think the Sox want him playing CF or RF because Carlos will most likely be around for at least another year.

Hmm....I dunno where I came up with that....both seem better suited for the other position.

samram
06-27-2004, 05:36 PM
Hmm....I dunno where I came up with that....both seem better suited for the other position.
I agree with that- they're just using his time in the minors to see if he can fill a pending (if not immediate) need at a premium position.

Soxheads
06-27-2004, 05:38 PM
I agree with that- they're just using his time in the minors to see if he can fill a pending (if not immediate) need at a premium position.

First he needs to shake out of this rut he's in.

Soxheads
06-27-2004, 05:42 PM
Although, the point can be made that Burke was sucking it up for Charlotte and he's doing a nice job up here.

doublem23
06-27-2004, 05:44 PM
Although, the point can be made that Burke was sucking it up for Charlotte and he's doing a nice job up here.
The point can also be made that he's had 19 plate appearances for the Sox. Give him 200, and he'll prove to be the dud he is.

samram
06-27-2004, 05:46 PM
Although, the point can be made that Burke was sucking it up for Charlotte and he's doing a nice job up here.
Of course, Burke is just filler in the majors. Reed will be expected to hit at least .280.

TomParrish79
06-27-2004, 05:48 PM
I think the deal is ok, especially if we're not gonna be able to re-sign Maggs. I would hate to see Maggs leave, but I got a feeling he is gonna be leaving after this season anyway and head to Boston.


I would take Andruw Jones in a heartbeat for his defense and his offense.

doublem23
06-27-2004, 06:04 PM
Well, I'm sure this is too positive for some people to handle, but according to the main site, Maggs can see himself in the pinstripes for a long time...

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20040627&content_id=781882&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp

JRIG
06-27-2004, 06:15 PM
I haven't seen this -- it's from the Atlanta Journal-Constitution on the trade.

Blockbuster Trade May Include Andruw Jones (http://www.ajc.com/braves/content/sports/braves/0604/27notes.html)
(Registration required)



The Jones and Ordonez portion, which was making the rounds in Chicago on Saturday, couldn't be confirmed by reliable sources with either team. But a White Sox official confirmed there have been ongoing discussions about Ortiz.

The Braves would likely get 6-foot-11 pitcher Jon Rauch in any deal for Ortiz. Rauch had his best major league start Thursday against the Cubs with Braves scout and special assistant Jim Fregosi in attendance.

The Braves have been offered Rauch and a couple of outfield prospects for Ortiz. However, general manager John Schuerholz indicated Friday, without talking about specific discussions, that he wouldn't make a deal that wouldn't help the Braves now.

idseer
06-27-2004, 06:17 PM
Well, I'm sure this is too positive for some people to handle, but according to the main site, Maggs can see himself in the pinstripes for a long time...

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20040627&content_id=781882&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jspyou know ... that is an interesting pic of magglio. it appears his eyes are about 5 or 6 feet behind the ball .... certainly not ON it.

i remember an old shot of mantle just as the ball makes contact with the bat his eyeballs are dead on that ball.

idseer
06-27-2004, 06:18 PM
I haven't seen this -- it's from the Atlanta Journal-Constitution on the trade.

Blockbuster Trade May Include Andruw Jones (http://www.ajc.com/braves/content/sports/braves/0604/27notes.html)
(Registration required)

CRAP!

jabrch
06-27-2004, 06:37 PM
I think the Garcia deal might put an end to the Magglio to Atlanta deal.

sox_fan_forever
06-27-2004, 06:42 PM
I think the Garcia deal might put an end to the Magglio to Atlanta deal.
I agree, and that makes me happy because I really wasn't thrilled with the Atlanta deal.

Kadafi311
06-27-2004, 06:46 PM
I think the Garcia deal might put an end to the Magglio to Atlanta deal.
Yup, I'd pretty much say this is a dead deal. Unless of course the Sox want to make roster space for 7 starting pitchers :D:

danjames
06-27-2004, 06:57 PM
How about Ordonez and Rauch for Estrada, Jones and Ortiz, moving Schoeney to the pen? Maybe this should be in deeppink.

TomParrish79
06-27-2004, 06:59 PM
Hell make the deal and lets get another pitcher and a centerfielder.

Loaiza, Buehrle,Garcia,Oriz

That would be a good starting rotation for the playoffs.

Philo-Sox-er
06-27-2004, 07:00 PM
Do you think they will make this trade now that they just made the Garcia trade?

ChiWhiteSox1337
06-27-2004, 07:02 PM
How about Ordonez and Rauch for Estrada, Jones and Ortiz, moving Schoeney to the pen? Maybe this should be in deeppink.The Braves can throw in John Smoltz for good terms :)

eurotrash35
06-27-2004, 07:18 PM
I say keep this trade alive, it still makes a lot of sense, minus losing Damaso. Get it done KW! :cool:

danjames
06-27-2004, 07:27 PM
The Braves can throw in John Smoltz for good terms :)
But surely they'll want Wunsch! I'm just not sure we need to be giving away all that talent!

cornball
06-27-2004, 07:30 PM
Borchard can play center, he is more suited for RF because of his arm, not because he can't cover CF.
Agreed and if this trade were to go through, Bourchard would be the RF with Rowand. IMHO.

kevingrt
06-27-2004, 07:32 PM
I'm all up for Magglio, Rauch, and whatever minor leaguer for Ortiz and Jones. I'd do it in a flash. Think Buerhle, Loaiza, Ortiz, Garcia, & Garland!!! AWAESOME, move Schoeey to the pen. Maybe pick up another right handed relief pitcher! We could win the division then!

ND_Sox_Fan
06-27-2004, 07:36 PM
I'm all up for Magglio, Rauch, and whatever minor leaguer for Ortiz and Jones. I'd do it in a flash. Think Buerhle, Loaiza, Ortiz, Garcia, & Garland!!! AWAESOME, move Schoeey to the pen. Maybe pick up another right handed relief pitcher! We could win the division then!
I completely agree - and not only the division ... we might even be able to win a playoff series.

Hokiesox
06-27-2004, 07:36 PM
Can KW really trade two of the most popular guys on the team in the same week? I hope not.

Daver
06-27-2004, 07:38 PM
Can KW really trade two of the most popular guys on the team in the same week? I hope not.
He can trade my Gramma if it makes the Sox a team that can contend for a WS win appearance.

Soxfest
06-27-2004, 07:48 PM
He can trade my Gramma if it makes the Sox a team that can contend for a WS win appearance.
I agree Daver :D:

TomParrish79
06-27-2004, 07:51 PM
I would make that trade in a heatbeat to get Andruw and Russ Ortiz.


Hell I would do anything to get to the World Series.

LASOXFAN
06-27-2004, 07:56 PM
He can trade my Gramma if it makes the Sox a team that can contend for a WS win appearance.
i have no choice but to agree. but this one hurts.

Tragg
06-27-2004, 08:02 PM
I'd like to see him get a left-handed hitter in here. I wouldn't have minded a Winn for Rowan throw-in in that trade although Winn's having a poor year (and not sure if he's a better lefty or righty).

HomeFish
06-27-2004, 08:04 PM
He can trade my Gramma if it makes the Sox a team that can contend for a WS win appearance.

My Gramma took Koch deep earlier this year. Long shot to center. Since he's in the NL East now, that may make her somewhat valuable to the Braves. Might be a good throw-in.

Lip Man 1
06-27-2004, 08:49 PM
From what I've been told on the phone tonight Williams is still looking for more pitching. He wants bullpen help but will take another starter as protection for Schowenweis and also to put him in a better position come the trade deadline. (i.e. teams will be coming to him with offers for the Sox 'surplus' pitchers.) It's possible Williams may be able to get a catcher, center fielder or a power hitting left handed stick out of it.


Lip

jordan23ventura
06-27-2004, 10:20 PM
I thought this a reasonable, if not intriguing, deal until a couple of hours ago. That's when WSCR replayed an interview of an Atlanta newspaper sportswriter from earlier in the morning. His comments about Jones, while not that negative, didn't do anything to get me excited. Basically, he hasn't been playing very well -- living up to expectations -- for the past 1-1/2 years. I fear another situation like Konerko last year. And the comments about Ortiz really turned me off. He characterized Ortiz as a pitcher who manages to find a way to win 15-20 games per year, but walks a lot of people and gives up a lot of runs. The sportswriter thought that he'd be a good fit for the Sox, because we score so many runs. Experience is worth something, but it doesn't sound like an upgrade from Rauch / Diaz.

Given those characterizations, I'd rather have Maggs for half a year, Rauch, any other prospects KW is giving up, and the two draft picks that Maggs would bring. I'm not against getting something for Maggs now, though I'd prefer that we sign him. But Ortiz and Jones did not sound like anything close to sure things, and, quite frankly, most likely to have significant chances of being bad acquisitions.

We all know how much sportswriters know. We can get a definate powerhouse CF for 3 years over Maggs, who is still a big maybe. Plus, we get a proven ML SP that would look very good at the back of the rotation. Diaz and Rauch look good, but I still would rather have Ortiz out there against the Twins in late August if we are only up 2 games in the division. Now with Garcia, and maybe Kendall by the end of the week, we would have one of the best lineups and rotations in the ML:

Harris 2B
Kendall C
Thomas DH
Jones CF
Lee LF
Konerko 1B
Uribe / Valentin SS
Crede 3B
Borchard / Rowand / Timo / Gload RF

Rotation: Buerhle, Garcia, Loaiza, Garland, Ortiz

Bullpen: Adkins/Rauch/Diaz, Cotts, Schoenweis, Jackson, Politte, Marte (set-up) Takatsu (closer)

Another good arm to replace Jackson and a set-up/closer type and we are set. Only one question though. Why didn't KW demand Guardado? It seems like we gave up too much for just Freddy, and Davis is trade bait.

dickallen15
06-27-2004, 10:41 PM
He can trade my Gramma if it makes the Sox a team that can contend for a WS win appearance.
What's her contract status?

Daver
06-27-2004, 11:01 PM
What's her contract status?
Dead for ten years.

illiniwhitesox
06-27-2004, 11:08 PM
If you want a defensive centerfielder look at Aaron, he has been doing well on offense too. We don't need a better defense, Mags is good, Lee is good and Rowand is awesome, apparently you didn't see Thursday's game if you think we need defense.
I would argue about Lee being good defensively. He has improved, but he never will be considered for a gold glove. Jones is the preeminent defensive CF in baseball. There simply is none better at this position defensively. If you believe in the premise that you build defense up the middle of the field and offense along the lines, then this transaction might make sense.

On that note, I would rather not see this deal happen as I love Mags and want to see him continue his career with the WS. Additionally, Borchard should be called up next year - meaning we have a quality minor leaguers in the wings.

One thing about Kenny - I have to admit - he doesn't sit on his hands.

A. Cavatica
06-28-2004, 12:05 AM
Dead for ten years.
Better than Ben Davis, anyway.

DSpivack
06-28-2004, 12:12 AM
One thing about Kenny - I have to admit - he doesn't sit on his hands.
Like him or not, this is certainly true.

His moves nearly remind me of me playing video games, I make trades so much.

39thandWallace
06-28-2004, 12:19 AM
I definetly say move Maggs and get something for him if he won't sign.

OurBitchinMinny
06-28-2004, 12:44 AM
I love maggs and I hope he finishes his career here, but if he will not sign a reasonable contract in the next few weeks you just got to trade him. You cannot let a player of his magnitude walk for nothing except maybe a draft pick. I wish he would sign on the dotted line tomorrow, but if he doesnt and wont the rest of the year what makes us sure he will after the season, especially if it ends in disappoinment? You just cant let him walk. and you know the yankees and red sox are gonna throw more money than JR will. What if the cubs get in the mix? I couldnt stomach to see maggs in a cubs uni

ma-gaga
06-28-2004, 12:54 AM
38-33, 102 games to go. Magic Number is 93
Something doesn't make sense in your signature.

I couldn't figure out why the magic number was a lot less than the games to go...

pinwheels3530
06-28-2004, 03:16 AM
Stupid Trade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

StepsInSC
06-28-2004, 11:29 AM
An article about this has been posted on the Braves' web site.

http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/atl/news/atl_news.jsp?ymd=20040627&content_id=781806&vkey=news_atl&fext=.jsp

But the Ortiz to Chicago rumors officially ended Sunday when the White Sox bolstered their pitching staff by landing the Mariners' Freddy Garcia in a trade.

greenpeach
06-28-2004, 11:38 AM
Stupid Trade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!
If you're not going to be able to re-sign him, then you've got to get a quality player for Maggs....now. While Andruw Jones is certainly struggling this year, he's still relatively young (27) & fills a position of need (CF) for the next three years. Personally, I think it's a good trade for both clubs. The Braves are in the process of rebuilding & can't unload Chipper (5-10) without his consent. Smoltz will be gone by the end of the season. This leaves Andruw as the last big salaried player that can be unloaded. They get Maggs for half a year & can evaluate him & see if they want to sign him to a long term deal. If not, this frees up money for them to make some deals during the off season.

gosox41
06-28-2004, 11:48 AM
Ugh - this is not a good trade at all...
I tend to agree. I just want to do a comparison (you can start the '1812 Overture' now.

Pitcher A Pitcher B

K/9: 6.14 6.85
WHIP 1.39 1.41
BAA .266 .243
ERA 4.77 3.97
K/BB 1.86 1.52
OBP .330 .330
SLG .472 .373
OPS .802 .704

Now keep in mind pitcher A pitched in the AL his whole career and pitcher B pitches in the NL his whole career. That does matter a bit.

Any guesses on the two pitchers?

Pitcher B is obviously Ortiz
Pitcher A is.....Rick Helling


Needless to say, I don't like this trade.


Bob

fuzzy_patters
06-28-2004, 11:54 AM
From the Daily Southtown:





Williams doesn't usually go into details when discussing trade rumors, but he found a recent radio report that had Ordonez going to Atlanta so far from the truth that he decided to comment on it Sunday.

"All I can say about that is I have not had one conversation about Magglio with (Atlanta GM) John Schuerholz," Williams said, "and I have spoken to (Schuerholz)."

The deal that Williams and Schuerholz have discussed involves Atlanta sending right-handed pitcher Russ Ortiz to the Sox for pitcher Jon Rauch and two minor league outfielders. Those talks weren't dead, either, even after the Sox landed Freddy Garcia from Seattle on Sunday, as Williams pointed out the trade deadline isn't until July 31.

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/281sd5.htm

ghost
07-01-2004, 01:04 PM
I kind of like the trade if they don't trade him he'll leave sooner or later.
but they should try to get a better offer after all he is one of the best RF in the AL if not the best.

SOXSINCE'70
07-01-2004, 01:11 PM
I definetly say move Maggs and get something for him if he won't sign.
Sad to see him leave,but if he won't accept KW's offer (lowball or not),the money can be used to resign Garcia,E-LO and possibly some bullpen help or another starting pitcher.

sendimjoey
07-01-2004, 01:53 PM
I don't like this deal at all. Ortiz is nothing special. I'm plenty happy with the starters we have right now (all six, if you include Diaz and Schoeneweis). They're plenty good enough. The top 3 are the ones that matter the most in the post-season, and Ortiz is not better than Garcia, Loiaza or Buehrle. Is it worth it not to have Ordonez to have Ortiz start a Game 4 instead of Garland? Not in my opinion.

Moreover, while I like Andruw Jones, I don't want his albatross contract on the Sox payroll. I'd rather lose Ordonez for the two draft picks the Sox would likely get (the first rounder of the team that signs him and a supplemental pick between the first and second rounds). The draft picks are determined by the contract Ordonez would sign, and I imagine it will be a big one that will net the Sox two draft picks. That restocks our prospect pool, making up for the Garcia trade. I'd prefer that than to lose the payroll flexibility.

Finally, one reason that I didn't mind giving up two good players/prospects in the Garcia deal was the idea that the Sox are going for it this year. If you're going to do that, then go for it full bore. Keep Ordonez. After the season, offer him arbitration. If he walks, you'll get draft picks. And I doubt a player at his age would accept arbitration, which would be an implied one-year deal between him and the Sox, and thereby risk injury. This deal is the one that will set him for life (not that he shouldn't already be in pretty good shape, having made $30 million over the last three years). He delayed free agency by a year with his last deal. I doubt he'd do that again.

Just my $2. :smile:

Rush20
07-01-2004, 02:30 PM
If Rauch can take over the #5, I like our pitching as is! Move Schowenweis (Hope I spelled that right :redface: ) back to the bullpen when he's off the DL and SIGN MAGS!!!!!

Keep Bouchard and move him into a Lee/Rowand/Bouchard Outfield/DH rotation. If they trade anyone, trade Konerko for pitching perhaps with the Dodgers who could throw Robin Ventura into the deal. He could then trade off with Frank at 1B and would be a great asset to the Clubhouse, plus a fan favorite.

I know Paulie is hot, so if they want to dump his salary, now is the time.

soxwon
07-01-2004, 06:56 PM
braves fans on their board think they would be getting ripped off.
how can they think this?
i thought an jones was a cancer? and ortiz so so
maggs is a bonified star.
why would they think they"d be getting shorted?

Randar68
07-01-2004, 07:03 PM
If Rauch can take over the #5, I like our pitching as is! Move Schowenweis (Hope I spelled that right :redface: ) back to the bullpen when he's off the DL and SIGN MAGS!!!!!

Keep Bouchard and move him into a Lee/Rowand/Bouchard Outfield/DH rotation. If they trade anyone, trade Konerko for pitching perhaps with the Dodgers who could throw Robin Ventura into the deal. He could then trade off with Frank at 1B and would be a great asset to the Clubhouse, plus a fan favorite.

I know Paulie is hot, so if they want to dump his salary, now is the time.
Who the **** is "Bouchard?"

harwar
07-01-2004, 07:36 PM
i thought an jones was a cancer? and ortiz so so...

Which is why i can't understand why some people want the Sox to jump on this trade.I know that KW is working on something but i would be shocked if he traded Maggs for Jones & Ortiz.

Frankfan4life
07-01-2004, 08:00 PM
Just going on record to say that I think the trade sux and if it went down like that, there will be a lot of sorry White Sox fans on this board pretty soon. Also, the Sox are playing very well right now. I think when Maggs comes back, we will have all we need to maintain our lead in the division and win in the playoffs. What we have right now has gotten us this far so there is no need to keep fishing for players when you are in first place. I say keep Maggs and next stop, World Series!

flo-B-flo
07-01-2004, 11:42 PM
Here's my take...

By all accounts (including comments from Maggs himself to the Southtown's Joe Cowley) he is leaving after this year.

I'm not going to get into why he's leaving... we'll discuss that at another time but the bottom line is that if you keeps Maggs now, next season the Sox are going to need a quality right fielder AND a quality center fielder.

If you make the trade you'll have Jones for next season, maybe two seasons, I don't know the terms of his contract. That means you only have to try to find a new quality right fielder (no not Aaron Rowand or Ross Gload.)

Russ Ortiz is a free agent after the season and I think it's safe to say the Sox are going to lose him as well since they don't re-sign their free agent pitchers especially when they want to be compensated accordingly for pitching being at a premium. However they still get him for the rest of this season and who knows, maybe a miracle can take place and they can lock him up next year.

So you get at least a half season from Ortiz plus at least a year and a half (maybe more) from Jones in exchange for a half season from Maggs.

If you do the math there's no question the Sox have to do the deal.

I don't like it but there it is.

Like I said we'll discuss the reasons why Maggs was going to leave when he actually departs and the facts start to come out.

Lip This is precisely why KW should do this. Losing another pitching prospect when you don't sign veteran free agent pitchers.................well I don't know. The future is now I guess.:gulp:

pissonthecubs
07-02-2004, 12:04 AM
I like it. I think Jones, hitting in this lineup, would see his average jump at least 40 points. And his power numbers at the cell would be the same as Mags. Bring it on!!
i see nothing about this trade that i can like. getting ortiz, without jones, i can maybe handle that. but ortiz with jones, not at all! sure maybe, and that is a big maybe, jones' number might go up slightly. 40 points on the BA, i'm not sure about that. maybe 5-7 more HR, and 20 points on the BA. lets also take into consideration that he leads the NL in double plays with 15 (as of monday) and we haven't even hit the all star break! also jones has two bad knees, and has gained a little more weight then your average speedy CF does in his prime... again just a few things to think about for everyone who really wants to get rid of Mags for these two guys.

ma-gaga
07-02-2004, 05:59 PM
braves fans on their board think they would be getting ripped off.
how can they think this?
i thought an jones was a cancer? and ortiz so so
maggs is a bonified star.
why would they think they"d be getting shorted?
Andrew is signed for another 3-4 years. Maggs walks away at the end of the year. That's a possible reason. Talent wise, they don't know how good Magglio is. He doesn't get the publicity. I bet most MLB fans would be shocked when they realize that Maggs is a 4 time all-star. Maybe they value Andrew's defense more than they should, he is a "name" player.

Who knows. Getting an corner OF for a CF is usually a bad deal if the hitting is close. It's not. Magglio is one of the quietest studs in the league.

ma-gaga
07-02-2004, 06:01 PM
I mean, we saw how excited the Marlins fans were to be getting Koch, because he is a "name" player.

44 saves! 100 mph heater! woohoo!

Same with Andrew's 'Gold Gloves' and 'Web Gems'. They make the player seem a little more valuable than he actually is.

MisterB
07-02-2004, 06:10 PM
Who the **** is "Bouchard?"
Joe Bouchard was the bass player for Blue Öyster Cult. He's gotta be in his 50's by now and I doubt if he can hit a ML fastball. :redneck

Jamieboy
07-09-2004, 07:13 PM
Come on now, this is getting a little ridecules. The point is this team has to get to the playoffs this year, period. The other point is that Maggs is not deserving of 5 years, 70mil. He's not Vladimir Guerrero.

This is Maggs career avg over a 162 game season
Years G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS6.12162617101190392301145469136.308.365.527.892


This is Vlad's
Years G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS6.711626101061983753811661781911.324.390.588.97 8

Nevermind that Vlad spent most of his career on Montreal, a team which generally didn't leave Vlad a whole bunch of protection, or with runners in front of him.

Now, there's all this .. no no no .. Maggs has to stay on the team, do not trade him, etc. But, what is Kenny suposed to do if Maggs basically tells him he's not staying for what the Sox are offering? Then of course, there's the talk of how the Sox are deferring so much money in the 5th year, its on the Sox, etc. Listen, this is a 70 million dollar deal roughly. Maggs will be 35 at the time of the contract. And this is the Chicago WhiteSox. At this point in time, we aren't raking in a ton of cash. So we have to find ways to make the money work. If the money doesn't work out to Magg's satisfaction, and Kenny has a chance to make a deal which would better the team, than do it. Period. I like Andruw Jones is this overpriced Golden Glove CF now. Listen, Andruw Jones is one of the most highly talented players in the game. Has he tapped into all that talent? No. However, these questions about his bat aren't up to snuff. This is Andruw Jones Avg at home, and then at home.
SplitABRH2B3BHRRBIBBHBPSOSBCSAVGOBPSLGOPSHome 14322341505212203612.238.339.448.787Away 161264510310302113612.280.364.565.929

Now imagine him hitting in the America League, and hitting in the cell. Oh yea, mine as well throw in Jone's career avg's.

Years G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS7.5216258796157324319663125166.268.342.495.837

None of that takes into account that Jone's is a golden glover CF, in fact a premier golden glover. Not to mention that Jones is 27, Maggs is 30. Jone's is just hitting his prime. Throw in the fact that Jones is under contract for a few more years, and its all good to me. People are so fast to look at Jones' contract, but hey, talent doesn't come cheaply, especially talent players coming into their primes. So i'd be quite happy if the Sox got Jones. He'd be in his prime for another 3-5 years, and for most of the years, under contract with the Sox, whats the problem with that?

Plus with Ortiz .... this trade is sick.YEARGGSCGIPHRHRBBSOK/9WLSvP/GSWHIPBAAERA200418181110.010145554877.12960103.31. 41.2483.44

A rotation of Freddy Garcia, Mark Buehrle, Estaban Loaiza, Jon Garland, and Ortiz, come on, that has to be a top 3, if not the best rotation in the American League. This for Maggs, the most consistent hitter on the team the past 5 years. Not to mention a quiet guy who has never made trouble for the team. However, ever since rumors leaked that KW would have traded Maggs for Nomar, at the time believing that Nomar would have been easier to resign than Maggs since JR is good friends with Nomar's agents. Further rumors had KW signing Juan Gonzalez had the deal gone through. But thats all in the past, and this is the future. With Frank hurting, this deal could become very interesting. I say if this were to go through, Sox 1, Braves 0 in the long running, and for the season.

Cowch44
07-09-2004, 07:14 PM
....this is a pretty old topic...:o:

JKryl
07-12-2004, 01:09 AM
:redneck The point is: We have to get something for Mags. If history (and KW's actions) says anything, it's that Mags is gone, because the Sox are not going to give him what he wants. This is not a whine, it's a fact. So, if this is the best KW can do, lets get it on.

StillMissOzzie
07-12-2004, 03:07 AM
:redneck The point is: We have to get something for Mags. If history (and KW's actions) says anything, it's that Mags is gone, because the Sox are not going to give him what he wants. This is not a whine, it's a fact. So, if this is the best KW can do, lets get it on.
With Frank's near term and longer term (for this season) in doubt, I disagree. I don't think that Maggs is going anywhere this year, not as long as the Sox are in the thick of a pennant race. Of course, I could be wrong.

SMO
:gulp:

TDog
07-12-2004, 03:46 AM
:redneck The point is: We have to get something for Mags. If history (and KW's actions) says anything, it's that Mags is gone, because the Sox are not going to give him what he wants. This is not a whine, it's a fact. So, if this is the best KW can do, lets get it on.

Actually, the Sox don't have to get anything for Maggs.

The Sox need his bat. Keeping Maggs is the same as trading for a player who will be a free agent, which is the type of player available to contenders, and probably what the Sox would have to do if they lose his bat. If Sox trade Maggs for prospects to "get something for him," are they trying to win this year?

Nellie_Fox
07-12-2004, 04:21 AM
If Sox trade Maggs for prospects to "get something for him," are they trying to win this year?But Jones and Ortiz are not "prospects." They're players who can help this year, and we'd be getting something for Maggs. You can't just let him walk away at the end of the year for nothing but a couple of draft picks. You just can't.

hose
07-12-2004, 07:27 AM
But Jones and Ortiz are not "prospects." They're players who can help this year, and we'd be getting something for Maggs. You can't just let him walk away at the end of the year for nothing but a couple of draft picks. You just can't.
Wasn't this whole Maggs for Jones/Ortiz a smoke screen to force Seattle's hand into dealing Freddy Garcia?

KW played them like a fiddle.:cool:

Basten
07-12-2004, 12:07 PM
I saw Andruw Jones eaten alive by quality pitching in last year's NLDS. 1 for 17 iirc. That's what a big swing and lousy pitch selection gets you come playoff time. Sox have a bunch of those on the roster, already.

For 12-13 Mill with bad knees and 'tude to boot? No thanks.