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Lip Man 1
06-26-2004, 10:31 PM
Mike brings up an interesting point in his column today. I post it for discussions purposes:

"Ozzie Guillen sure gets a heap of praise for a manager of a team with a record of 37-33.

With all of that fabulous enthusiasm he supposedly brings to this club, Guillen's Sox barely have won more games than the Devil Rays, Brewers and Mets, three of 2003's worst teams.

Jerry Manuel's Sox were 50-50 last season after 100 games. Let's see where Guillen's club is at the 100 mark before hailing him as such a magnificent managerial replacement, OK?"

Personally I think Ozzie will be a fine manager however even the greatest manager can't win if he doesn't have the talent to do it with. I don't think you can fault him for some of the shortcomings and problems on the field. That belongs much higher up in the organization.

Lip

doublem23
06-26-2004, 10:32 PM
Agreed, Lip, but your observation is lost on a bufoon like Ozzie.

Maybe someone should have informed Downey that JM had a healthy Bartolo Colon and Cy Young-caliber Esteban Loaiza last year. Had Ozzie had these tools, I think the Sox would have been 10 games up on Minnesota already.

Daver
06-26-2004, 10:34 PM
Can we fault him for his rookie mistakes?

Should we overlook the huge mistakes he has made concerning his starting pitchers and the way he handles the bullpen, or should it wait till there are a hundred games played?

rwcescato
06-26-2004, 10:36 PM
Mike brings up an interesting point in his column today. I post it for discussions purposes:

"Ozzie Guillen sure gets a heap of praise for a manager of a team with a record of 37-33.

With all of that fabulous enthusiasm he supposedly brings to this club, Guillen's Sox barely have won more games than the Devil Rays, Brewers and Mets, three of 2003's worst teams.

Jerry Manuel's Sox were 50-50 last season after 100 games. Let's see where Guillen's club is at the 100 mark before hailing him as such a magnificent managerial replacement, OK?"

Personally I think Ozzie will be a fine manager however even the greatest manager can't win if he doesn't have the talent to do it with. I don't think you can fault him for some of the shortcomings and problems on the field. That belongs much higher up in the organization.

Lip
I agree with you Mark. What doesn't the media complain about. I had to laugh when he wrote about the 305 starts. Don't the cubs start at 3 sometimes? They start at a lot of different times. The only thing I haven't heard them complain about is Nancy Faust and our food.
Rich

doublem23
06-26-2004, 10:38 PM
Can we fault him for his rookie mistakes?

Should we overlook the huge mistakes he has made concerning his starting pitchers and the way he handles the bullpen, or should it wait till there are a hundred games played?
Maybe, but he makes a mean sandwich. :cool:

cheeses_h_rice
06-26-2004, 10:43 PM
Mike brings up an interesting point in his column today. I post it for discussions purposes:

"Ozzie Guillen sure gets a heap of praise for a manager of a team with a record of 37-33.

With all of that fabulous enthusiasm he supposedly brings to this club, Guillen's Sox barely have won more games than the Devil Rays, Brewers and Mets, three of 2003's worst teams.

Jerry Manuel's Sox were 50-50 last season after 100 games. Let's see where Guillen's club is at the 100 mark before hailing him as such a magnificent managerial replacement, OK?"

Personally I think Ozzie will be a fine manager however even the greatest manager can't win if he doesn't have the talent to do it with. I don't think you can fault him for some of the shortcomings and problems on the field. That belongs much higher up in the organization.

Lip
How about this for a riposte:

"The Cubs are 41-33 and 4 games back of first place while the White Sox are 38-33 and 2 games back of first, yet based on the disparate media coverage given the two teams, you'd think the Cubs walked on gilded ducksh*t while the Sox were busy huffing anal vapors from the majority of their AL Central brethren."

And please, what do those 3 teams' 2003 records have to do with anything? The 2004 Mets are 2 back of first, just like the Sox.

As for Guillen, I don't think anyone here is ready to proclaim him Manager of the Year material, but there have been indications that the style of play of this team has undergone a mild transformation since the Jerry Manuel era. Just wait to see what he can do with an actual professional lineup, day in, day out.

Tragg
06-26-2004, 10:47 PM
Can we fault him for his rookie mistakes?

Should we overlook the huge mistakes he has made concerning his starting pitchers and the way he handles the bullpen, or should it wait till there are a hundred games played?
Out of interest, what mistakes do you see (outside of the 5th starter merry-go-round)?

cheeses_h_rice
06-26-2004, 10:52 PM
Out of interest, what mistakes do you see (outside of the 5th starter merry-go-round)?
Gload in RF instead of Harris in CF and Rowand in RF yesterday? That's one off the top of my head.

Burke starting in RF the other night also stands out, though that didn't come back to haunt him.

CHISOXFAN13
06-26-2004, 10:55 PM
Out of interest, what mistakes do you see (outside of the 5th starter merry-go-round)?
How bout continuing to trot Koch to the mound in save situations when it was obvious that he wasn't getting the job done. Also, his constant use of Jackson is close games is a problem.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-26-2004, 11:00 PM
How bout continuing to trot Koch to the mound in save situations when it was obvious that he wasn't getting the job done. Also, his constant use of Jackson is close games is a problem.
Koch was here to be closer. If he was not the closer, his presence constituted hardly more than a wasted roster spot. He was given every opportunity to succeed, and he failed. Everyone is glad he is gone and he was a class act for facing the music and publicly stating he wishes he could have done better. Let it go.

On a more pleasant subject, I haven't heard anything recently from our Marlins fans friends.

:smile:

Tragg
06-26-2004, 11:01 PM
How bout continuing to trot Koch to the mound in save situations when it was obvious that he wasn't getting the job done. Also, his constant use of Jackson is close games is a problem.
Bullpen, sure- lots of ?able stuff.

Just wondered about the specific critique of handling starters- the first 4 seemed to be pencilled in to me.

cheeses_h_rice
06-26-2004, 11:04 PM
Koch was here to be closer. If he was not the closer, his presence constituted hardly more than a wasted roster spot. He was given every opportunity to succeed, and he failed. Everyone is glad he is gone and he was a class act for facing the music and publicly stating he wishes he could have done better. Let it go.

On a more pleasant subject, I haven't heard anything recently from our Marlins fans friends.

:smile:
George, I think I must have completely missed out on what happened on WSI when Koch was traded -- did we receive a bit of the ol' fabled Smack Talk from down Florida way at the time?

:gulp:

Tragg
06-26-2004, 11:09 PM
George, I think I must have completely missed out on what happened on WSI when Koch was traded -- did we receive a bit of the ol' fabled Smack Talk from down Florida way at the time?

:gulp:
Hell until reading these posts, I didn't know that he was traded.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-26-2004, 11:10 PM
George, I think I must have completely missed out on what happened on WSI when Koch was traded -- did we receive a bit of the ol' fabled Smack Talk from down Florida way at the time?

I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for digging around in the Roadhouse. It got pretty intense for a while with the Fish fans.

:wanne
"Everyone from Miami but me was here talking smack to the Chicago fans, too!"

cheeses_h_rice
06-26-2004, 11:13 PM
Hell until reading these posts, I didn't know that he was traded.
:o::o::o:

You mean you haven't missed those nailbiting 9th innings now that the Sox have a real closer?

CWSGuy406
06-26-2004, 11:27 PM
George, I think I must have completely missed out on what happened on WSI when Koch was traded -- did we receive a bit of the ol' fabled Smack Talk from down Florida way at the time?

:gulp:
They came here and were talking about how their situation was different, and that their situation turns pitchers into magic. Brought up Benitez and Fox IIRC. They said their pitching coaches have magic, and that Koch will dominate again.

Pretty funny, looking back on it. :redneck

Tragg
06-26-2004, 11:27 PM
:o::o::o:

You mean you haven't missed those nailbiting 9th innings now that the Sox have a real closer?
Hopefully I will enjoy those for the next 3 months. The wif and I went on a little vacation and she forbade me from doing anything else except checking scores- why haven't been all that stellar recently anyway.