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Frater Perdurabo
06-22-2004, 12:43 PM
The recent Sox slump, while partially due to Maggs' injury, nevertheless has exposed some glaring weaknesses. We all knew about these deficiencies during the offseason; we've known about them for years. I understand Kenny may be trying to swing multiple deals, and other GMs aren't biting, but as a GM his job is not merely "to try."

The Sox not only need one stating pitcher; they need two. Get two quality starters, move Shoe to the pen and Garland to #5. I suggest Garcia and Livan Hernandez. Then, trade for Steve Finley and Carl Crawford. The only "untouchables" are Frank, Maggs, Loaiza, Buehrle, Garland, Olivo, Uribe, Harris, Crede, Shingo, Marte and Jeremy Reed. Otherwise everyone on the roster and in the minors is on the table. I think the Sox have enough assets to get all four deals done. These deals would set up the Sox to compete deep into the playoffs this year and for the next several seasons.

The lineup for the rest of the season is: Crawford (LF), Uribe (SS), Maggs (RF), Frank (1B/DH), Valentin/Lee (DH/1B), Finley (CF), Crede (3B), Olivo (C), Harris (2B). In 2005, Crawford moves to center to make room for Reed in left. Starters: Buehrle, E-Lo, Garcia, Hernandez, Garland. Pen: Shingo, Marte, Shoe and whoever is left over after the flurry of deals.

DaveIsHere
06-22-2004, 12:45 PM
The recent Sox slump, while partially due to Maggs' injury, nevertheless has exposed some glaring weaknesses. We all knew about these deficiencies during the offseason; we've known about them for years. I understand Kenny may be trying to swing multiple deals, and other GMs aren't biting, but as a GM his job is not merely "to try."

The Sox not only need one stating pitcher; they need two. Get two quality starters, move Shoe to the pen and Garland to #5. I suggest Garcia and Livan Hernandez. Then, trade for Steve Finley and Carl Crawford. The only "untouchables" are Frank, Maggs, Loaiza, Buehrle, Garland, Olivo, Uribe, Harris, Crede, Shingo, Marte and Jeremy Reed. Otherwise everyone on the roster and in the minors is on the table. I think the Sox have enough assets to get all four deals done. These deals would set up the Sox to compete deep into the playoffs this year and for the next several seasons.

The lineup for the rest of the season is: Crawford (LF), Uribe (SS), Maggs (RF), Frank (1B/DH), Valentin/Lee (DH/1B), Finley (CF), Crede (3B), Olivo (C), Harris (2B). In 2005, Crawford moves to center to make room for Reed in left. Starters: Buehrle, E-Lo, Garcia, Hernandez, Garland. Pen: Shingo, Marte, Shoe and whoever is left over after the flurry of deals.
What are you smoking?? Will you share?





That should all be in deep deep pink

Frater Perdurabo
06-22-2004, 12:49 PM
What are you smoking?? Will you share? That should all be in deep deep pink

I'm just saying what it is that they need. They have lots of work to do based on the fact that they have not filled the holes they have, and have a poorly-constructed team as is. Good general managers find ways to turn turn weaknesses into strenghts by dealing surplus assets. The Sox surplus assets are in right-handed power hitters and minor league OF and pitching prospects.

Malgar 12
06-22-2004, 12:54 PM
I don't see how the Sox could possibly land Garcia, Hernandez, and Steve Finley without completely mortgaging their future, especially with your list of untouchables. Finley is 38. Garcia will only be around 3 months, and Hernandez is a #3 starter in an ideal world.

I'll be happy if they land just one legitmate starter. Period.

joeynach
06-22-2004, 01:04 PM
I'm just saying what it is that they need. They have lots of work to do based on the fact that they have not filled the holes they have, and have a poorly-constructed team as is. Good general managers find ways to turn turn weaknesses into strenghts by dealing surplus assets. The Sox surplus assets are in right-handed power hitters and minor league OF and pitching prospects.
Everyone is missing the point. All of this is relavent to Maggs contract thing. Ownerships inability to offer him something worth taking is going to mess this season up. You see if Maggs is signed then we have an abudnace of OF in Reed and Borchard. We already have two great OF on the roster and center field is still rowands mainly with maybe a chance for borchard or something. So then you can deal on of our prospects in a package for a new reliver and starter (who are under contract through next year). Now we have the solid lineup we need and the soldified pitching and pen. However since ownership are cheap and wont give a proven producer the reward he deserves we will be looking to move borchard and reed to the team next year. Instead of solidfying a proven power hitter we will gamble with unproven youth, thus making it that much harder to offer something worth while in a competetive trade market. Since we wont make an effort to lock up Maggs we have to keep Reed/Borchard, which means in terms of getting the help we need now on the open market we will be near the bottom offering not such high talent. Indirectly ownership is killing this team once again, for years now and once again. No wonder its been 22 years of failure in a row.

CWSGuy406
06-22-2004, 01:08 PM
Schoenwies gives up four runs (should have been three, but bad defense screwed him) in seven innings to the Indian offense and that is bad? He a fourth starter, and should be the fifth starter. Once Kenny gets us another starter, we will have our rotation set, as that will then bump Schoeney down to the fifth spot, and maybe even Garland down to four.

delben91
06-22-2004, 01:15 PM
Schoenwies gives up four runs (should have been three, but bad defense screwed him) in seven innings to the Indian offense and that is bad? He a fourth starter, and should be the fifth starter. Once Kenny gets us another starter, we will have our rotation set, as that will then bump Schoeney down to the fifth spot, and maybe even Garland down to four.

Exactly. The offense ran into a buzz saw in Sabathia yesterday. There were only two hard hit balls, Valentin's line out to right after Sabathia screamed at the ump, and then Rowand's single to center off of McDonald's glove. Rowand's other single was off the end of the bat, his home run, based on where he hit it (in close to his body with a tight swing) had no business staying fair, and Crede's double was a looper that just was close enough to the line to fall in.

This doesn't excuse the last two losses to Montreal when the pitching and offense didn't show up, in that order. Last night though I think was a case of Cleveland winning and not so much the Sox losing.

A little 3 game win streak and the Sox are fine again. Start it with one tonight boys, and get that confidence back.

Flight #24
06-22-2004, 02:22 PM
The recent Sox slump, while partially due to Maggs' injury, nevertheless has exposed some glaring weaknesses. We all knew about these deficiencies during the offseason; we've known about them for years. I understand Kenny may be trying to swing multiple deals, and other GMs aren't biting, but as a GM his job is not merely "to try."

The Sox not only need one stating pitcher; they need two. Get two quality starters, move Shoe to the pen and Garland to #5. I suggest Garcia and Livan Hernandez. Then, trade for Steve Finley and Carl Crawford. The only "untouchables" are Frank, Maggs, Loaiza, Buehrle, Garland, Olivo, Uribe, Harris, Crede, Shingo, Marte and Jeremy Reed. Otherwise everyone on the roster and in the minors is on the table. I think the Sox have enough assets to get all four deals done. These deals would set up the Sox to compete deep into the playoffs this year and for the next several seasons.

The lineup for the rest of the season is: Crawford (LF), Uribe (SS), Maggs (RF), Frank (1B/DH), Valentin/Lee (DH/1B), Finley (CF), Crede (3B), Olivo (C), Harris (2B). In 2005, Crawford moves to center to make room for Reed in left. Starters: Buehrle, E-Lo, Garcia, Hernandez, Garland. Pen: Shingo, Marte, Shoe and whoever is left over after the flurry of deals.
So if I understand you correctly, you just traded Lee, Valentin, Konerko, Borchard, Sweeney, Anderson, Honel, Rauch, Diaz, Munoz and somehow got back Crawford, Finley, Garcia, Hernandez?:?:


Did you also establish a not-for-profit fund to care for the families of out of work GMs from Montreal, Seattle, Tampa, and Arizona?
:cheers: :gulp:

Frater Perdurabo
06-22-2004, 02:26 PM
I don't see how the Sox could possibly land Garcia, Hernandez, and Steve Finley without completely mortgaging their future, especially with your list of untouchables. Finley is 38. Garcia will only be around 3 months, and Hernandez is a #3 starter in an ideal world.

I'll be happy if they land just one legitmate starter. Period.

Tampa Bay and Montreal would want pitching prospects; the Sox have plenty if they include Cotts, Rauch and Munoz in addition to prospects in the low minors. Arizona should like to unload Finley for prospects to rid themselves of his contract. Tampa Bay and Seattle need power; the Sox have plenty to spare. Borchard is still a top prospect and Konerko's value has to be up over last season. Lee's value has to be high right now as well.

Would this gut the minors for a while? Sure, but with Crawford, Maggs and Reed, the Sox outfield and pitching staff would be set for years, giving time for this year's draft class to develop. The Sox infield also is set for now and the future, with the exception of 1B, which is among the easiest positions to fill via free agency. In the meantime, Frank can platoon with Gload at 1B, getting the rest of his at-bats at DH.

Frater Perdurabo
06-22-2004, 02:28 PM
So if I understand you correctly, you just traded Lee, Valentin, Konerko, Borchard, Sweeney, Anderson, Honel, Rauch, Diaz, Munoz and somehow got back Crawford, Finley, Garcia, Hernandez?:?:


Call me mad, but yes. Don't forget Cotts. All four teams are done for this year.

Lee, Cotts and Honel to Tampa Bay for Crawford.
Borchard, Munoz and Rauch to Seattle for Garcia.
Konerko, Anderson, Diaz to Montreal for Hernandez.
Sweeney and Valentin to Arizona for Finley.

Switch out players as needed.

Plus there are other B-rate prospects in the Sox system that can be included to sweeten the pot as needed. Deeppink? Maybe, maybe not.

wilburwood
06-22-2004, 03:03 PM
As far as I'm concerned all this team needs to win our didvision would be a servicable starter to eat up some innings and hopfully get us up to say 500 ball from our 5th starter slot. If and when the playoffs come you go down to 4 starters anyway. I for one would hate to see Cotts go unless we really got something good in return. I think his upside is tremendous. But I still feel (and have posted before) we really need something solid in center field. I like strength up the middle. We surely have holes but I feel were damn close and it is definately do-able. We get that and stay relatively injury free I feel we can compete with ANYBODY........

Frater Perdurabo
06-22-2004, 03:11 PM
As far as I'm concerned all this team needs to win our didvision would be a servicable starter to eat up some innings and hopfully get us up to say 500 ball from our 5th starter slot. If and when the playoffs come you go down to 4 starters anyway. I for one would hate to see Cotts go unless we really got something good in return. I think his upside is tremendous. But I still feel (and have posted before) we really need something solid in center field. I like strength up the middle. We surely have holes but I feel were damn close and it is definately do-able. We get that and stay relatively injury free I feel we can compete with ANYBODY........

I agree that we need to be strong up the middle and add pitching. But I'm concerned that Shoe is reverting to form and would be better off in the Sox bullpen, which is really struggling outside of Shingo and Marte. My proposal is to pro-actively deal with the holes and to re-make the team on the fly to be able to both score with the long ball and manufacture runs. The improved outfield defense with Crawford and Finley also would greatly help the pitching staff. My point is that with these trades, the Sox could go for the jugular and be a top contender for the World Series yet also be set for the next few years. They would be pretty close without the fourth deal for Finley, but then we're stuck with a Reed/ Rowand platoon in left for the rest of this season. Reed will be ready next year, but this year is just a bit too early to count on him for a deep playoff push. And Rowand is best as a fourth outfielder who only bats against lefties.

Flight #24
06-22-2004, 03:15 PM
Call me mad, but yes. Don't forget Cotts. All four teams are done for this year.

Lee, Cotts and Honel to Tampa Bay for Crawford.
Borchard, Munoz and Rauch to Seattle for Garcia.
Konerko, Anderson, Diaz to Montreal for Hernandez.
Sweeney and Valentin to Arizona for Finley.

Switch out players as needed.

Plus there are other B-rate prospects in the Sox system that can be included to sweeten the pot as needed. Deeppink? Maybe, maybe not.
I don't think tampa makes that deal. Honel's got some potential injury concerns, and in Lee they take on a big salary for a few years whereas IIRC, Crawford makes near the minimum.

Seattle gives up Garcia in a heartbeat for that package

Montreal won't come within 3 states of Konerko's contract, not when they have Nick Johnson who's younger, cheaper, and arguably as good or better.

Does 'Zona value Sweeney enough to deal Finley for him AND assume Valentin's contract? I dont' think so.

The other piece that this requires is that you resign Garcia & Finley (you have no ready replacements). Since Maggs appears to be gone, you need to have a backup in mind, and signing Steve Finley to a multi-year deal is not a good answer IMO.

You also still lack a true closer. I like Shingo, but he's unproven over the long haul. To gut your system like you propose, you'd better be damn sure you're going to win. Otherwise, you end up with nothing and everyone's pissed because "that nut Kenny traded away all our young talent". Of course, many of those same posters will say "Wow - despite Kenny's ludicrous moves, we won" if we actually got to a WS!

Malgar 12
06-22-2004, 03:15 PM
[/QUOTE] Would this gut the minors for a while? Sure, but with Crawford, Maggs and Reed, the Sox outfield and pitching staff would be set for years, giving time for this year's draft class to develop. The Sox infield also is set for now and the future, with the exception of 1B, which is among the easiest positions to fill via free agency. In the meantime, Frank can platoon with Gload at 1B, getting the rest of his at-bats at DH.[/QUOTE]
You're assuming Maggs re-signs, Crawford is not much of an upgrade over Lee, if any, Reed may not pan out, Loazia need be resigned, and in you're scenario we'll have traded every potential pitching prospect.

Garcia will not re-sign! Hernandez is only got one more year I believe. Where does that leave us 05? Dont get me wrong, Im all for trying to win now, but let's be sane about it. I'd like to be competitive long term as well.

Trade Borchard, or Reed and a pitching prospect for one good starter and let the chips fall where they may. If you can somehow land beltran, or some relief help, bonus.

Frater Perdurabo
06-22-2004, 03:35 PM
I don't think tampa makes that deal. Honel's got some potential injury concerns, and in Lee they take on a big salary for a few years whereas IIRC, Crawford makes near the minimum.

Seattle gives up Garcia in a heartbeat for that package

Montreal won't come within 3 states of Konerko's contract, not when they have Nick Johnson who's younger, cheaper, and arguably as good or better.

Does 'Zona value Sweeney enough to deal Finley for him AND assume Valentin's contract? I dont' think so.

The other piece that this requires is that you resign Garcia & Finley (you have no ready replacements). Since Maggs appears to be gone, you need to have a backup in mind, and signing Steve Finley to a multi-year deal is not a good answer IMO.

You also still lack a true closer. I like Shingo, but he's unproven over the long haul. To gut your system like you propose, you'd better be damn sure you're going to win. Otherwise, you end up with nothing and everyone's pissed because "that nut Kenny traded away all our young talent". Of course, many of those same posters will say "Wow - despite Kenny's ludicrous moves, we won" if we actually got to a WS!

Fair enough. They don't have to get Finley. Tampa reportedly is willing to deal Crawford as they have another potential leadoff hitter waiting in the minors. What they need is a bat and pitching prospects. Maybe cash would sweeten the deal. Perhaps the Sox wouldn't have to give up such a generous package for Garcia, who could be persuaded to re-sign next season. A deal for Hernandez is doable with prospects.

How about this:
Lee, Cotts, Honel plus cash to Tampa for Crawford.
Borchard and Rauch to Seattle for Garcia.
Anderson, Munoz, Diaz and another prospect to Montreal for Hernandez.

For the remainder of the year, platoon Rowand and Valentin in left, with Reed taking over in 2005. The lineup is: Crawford (CF), Uribe (SS), Maggs (RF), Frank (DH), Konerko (1B), Rowand/Valentin (LF), Crede (3B), Olivo (C), Harris (2B). Combine that with a staff of Buehrle, E-Lo, Garcia, Hernandez and Garland; and Shingo, Shoe and Marte as the primary relievers; and this team is built for the short- and long-term.

Frater Perdurabo
06-22-2004, 03:41 PM
You're assuming Maggs re-signs, Crawford is not much of an upgrade over Lee, if any, Reed may not pan out, Loazia need be resigned, and in you're scenario we'll have traded every potential pitching prospect.

Garcia will not re-sign! Hernandez is only got one more year I believe. Where does that leave us 05? Dont get me wrong, Im all for trying to win now, but let's be sane about it. I'd like to be competitive long term as well.

Trade Borchard, or Reed and a pitching prospect for one good starter and let the chips fall where they may. If you can somehow land beltran, or some relief help, bonus.

Of course this is predicated on signing Maggs long-term. Trading Lee for Crawford breaks up the slow, right-handed logjam and gets a legitimate leadoff hitter who is young, uber-fast and hits .300 with lots of doubles and triples. Next year Reed takes over in left and bats second. Imagine Reed facing a 2-0 count with Crawford on third and Maggs and Frank on deck. Garcia can be persuaded to re-sign with Ozzie as the manager. Hernandez can be re-signed long-term. Given that the Sox should go deep in the playoffs, they will have lots more payroll with which to make it work.

Flight #24
06-22-2004, 03:43 PM
Fair enough. They don't have to get Finley. Tampa reportedly is willing to deal Crawford as they have another potential leadoff hitter waiting in the minors. What they need is a bat and pitching prospects. Maybe cash would sweeten the deal. Perhaps the Sox wouldn't have to give up such a generous package for Garcia, who could be persuaded to re-sign next season. A deal for Hernandez is doable with prospects.

How about this:
Lee, Cotts, Honel plus cash to Tampa for Crawford.
Borchard and Rauch to Seattle for Garcia.
Anderson, Munoz, Diaz and another prospect to Montreal for Hernandez.

For the remainder of the year, platoon Rowand and Valentin in left, with Reed taking over in 2005. The lineup is: Crawford (CF), Uribe (SS), Maggs (RF), Frank (DH), Konerko (1B), Rowand/Valentin (LF), Crede (3B), Olivo (C), Harris (2B). Combine that with a staff of Buehrle, E-Lo, Garcia, Hernandez and Garland; and Shingo, Shoe and Marte as the primary relievers; and this team is built for the short- and long-term.
If those deals were available, I think that woudl be nice. I'm not certain that they are out there, especially not the Crawford one. And without that deal, I'm concerned about trading Borchard+Rauch for a 3 month rental on Garcia.

Still, if you can work all of those, resign Maggs, and use the Koch/Valentin money to resign Garcia and cover Hernandez's salary......not bad.

Frater Perdurabo
06-22-2004, 04:13 PM
If those deals were available, I think that woudl be nice. I'm not certain that they are out there, especially not the Crawford one. And without that deal, I'm concerned about trading Borchard+Rauch for a 3 month rental on Garcia.

Still, if you can work all of those, resign Maggs, and use the Koch/Valentin money to resign Garcia and cover Hernandez's salary......not bad.

What do you think it would take to get Crawford, given that he reportedly is available and the Rays need power in the middle of their lineup and want pitching prospects (as they are set in the outfield and the Sox don't have much in the way of infield prospects)?

Flight #24
06-22-2004, 04:29 PM
What do you think it would take to get Crawford, given that he reportedly is available and the Rays need power in the middle of their lineup and want pitching prospects (as they are set in the outfield and the Sox don't have much in the way of infield prospects)?I find it hard to believe that Crawford ia available or that they'd give him up for anything less than a proven young pitcher or a proven young power hitter.

Ben Sheets would qualify. Mark Teixeira would qualify. Carlos Lee's too expensive and Neal Cotts is too unproven IMO. Crawford's young, cheap, and playing well = potential cornerstone. That means it'll take a lot to get him.