PDA

View Full Version : *Official* Sox/Tribe Postgame rant: June 21


FarWestChicago
06-21-2004, 09:45 PM
Have at it...

cheeses_h_rice
06-21-2004, 09:46 PM
Gee, that was a sad showing, wasn't it?

PaleHoseGeorge
06-21-2004, 09:46 PM
Grrrr.... rrrr.... Gggrrrrr.....

This ought to be good.

Viva Magglio
06-21-2004, 09:46 PM
...we suck! Well, we are right now at least, and we better turn it around quick (fifth starter acquired or not).

ndgt10
06-21-2004, 09:46 PM
I must say that a Valentin K was an appropriate end to that game.

A.T. Money
06-21-2004, 09:47 PM
The ship is sinking, and at the wrong time (Cubs series is coming).

Seems like we keep having games vs. good pitchers.

This sucks......

AnkleSox
06-21-2004, 09:49 PM
I've lost all playoff hope. A team this inconsistent can never reach the playoffs, let alone get anywhere in them.

Hawk and DJ are on the post-game show right now, of course talking about how the sox have seen such amazing pitching. What a load of crap.

duke of dorwood
06-21-2004, 09:49 PM
Nice wuss plaY by Alomar on the play at home.

Just a bit too much tinkering lately. And I've had enuf Timo Perez

Philo-Sox-er
06-21-2004, 09:51 PM
This team is moody. For awhile, the Ozzie-ball positive attitude seemed to be carrying the team--they were clicking and playing good baseball. Now, something has dampened the fire and can't put it together. How come our team seems more sensitive than the rest of the contending teams, such that it effects their onfield performance?

PaleHoseGeorge
06-21-2004, 09:51 PM
:firejerry

duke of dorwood
06-21-2004, 09:52 PM
I'd like to see Carlos rested before the weekend-he dont look real good at bat. Nice catch tonite though

Daver
06-21-2004, 09:53 PM
:firejerry

Ozzie was supposed to be the man to step in and make us forget JM.


He hasn't proven a damn thing yet.

I'm right till Ozzie proves me wrong.

duke of dorwood
06-21-2004, 09:54 PM
And looking real mortal without Magglio

idseer
06-21-2004, 09:54 PM
I've lost all playoff hope. A team this inconsistent can never reach the playoffs, let alone get anywhere in them.

Hawk and DJ are on the post-game show right now, of course talking about how the sox have seen such amazing pitching. What a load of crap.
i won't list the number of teams who had worse records at this juncture and went on to win the world series. but you should think about it.

whitesoxwilkes
06-21-2004, 09:54 PM
There's some nights when you just know we're gonna be flat...and this was one of them. Once our guys saw Sabathia the second time thru the order and still couldn't get to him, I knew it was hopeless.

Fungo
06-21-2004, 09:55 PM
I wonder which teams are looking at us for a fifth starter?

:dunno:

idseer
06-21-2004, 09:55 PM
Ozzie was supposed to be the man to step in and make us forget JM.


He hasn't proven a damn thing yet.

I'm right till Ozzie proves me wrong.
forget who?

samram
06-21-2004, 09:55 PM
This team is moody. For awhile, the Ozzie-ball positive attitude seemed to be carrying the team--they were clicking and playing good baseball. Now, something has dampened the fire and can't put it together. How come our team seems more sensitive than the rest of the contending teams, such that it effects their onfield performance?
That's how it's been for three, now four years. This is not a mentally tough team. The other difference between the Sox and other contenders is that they are incapable of 8-10 game winning streaks. The Yankees, Twins, A's, Red Sox, and Angels have all had streaks around that long this year. The Sox can't do it because of the fifth starter situation and an inconsistent offense. To win 90 games, there has to be at least 2 or 3 long winning streaks or spans of 12 out of 13, etc. This team doesn't seem to have that type of streak or span in it. Losing 7 out of 8 seems far more likely.

duke of dorwood
06-21-2004, 09:56 PM
And why isnt Olivo catching 2 of every 3 games? These pitchers should be used to working with him by now.

Philo-Sox-er
06-21-2004, 09:56 PM
There's some nights when you just know we're gonna be flat...and this was one of them. Once our guys saw Sabathia the second time thru the order and still couldn't get to him, I knew it was hopeless.
I agree...but last night it was against the Expos too!

PaleHoseGeorge
06-21-2004, 09:57 PM
:fireward

inta
06-21-2004, 09:58 PM
actually the sox are playing pretty much how i expected them to before this season started.

mediocre. at best.

unfortunately the cubs are now starting to play the way everyone expected them to.

:angry:

mdep524
06-21-2004, 09:58 PM
The ship is sinking, and at the wrong time (Cubs series is coming).

Seems like we keep having games vs. good pitchers.

This sucks......I want to comment on that "good pitcher" thing. Yes, Sabathia is good, but he was NOT as "locked in" as the numbers show tonight. It is convenient for Hawk, DJ and big Damen to write this game off as a dominating effort by CC, but frankly, a pithcing machine could have beat the Sox tonight. The Sox had several pitches to hit that they flat out missed, and they had a couple situations to score where they failed. The reason the Sox lost tonight is not good pitching, it is bad hitting.

Put a pitching machine out there and you'd've gotten the same result. I can see it now:

:hawk
2-1 count. Pitching machine looks in for the sign, even though he only has one pitch. 88 mph fastball down the middle....

:walnuts
<pops up to first base>

:hawk
Looking for it, got it, and just underneath it. Mercy! Paulie just missed that one!

idseer
06-21-2004, 09:59 PM
To win 90 games, there has to be at least 2 or 3 long winning streaks or spans of 12 out of 13, etc. This team doesn't seem to have that type of streak or span in it.
i don't recall that requirement.

geez ... who can throw their towel the farthest?

infohawk
06-21-2004, 10:00 PM
Yeah, the Sox are going through a tough time right now. All in all, losing two of three to the Marlins isn't anything to be ashamed about. Neither is losing this game against Sabathia. I kind of figured we probably would. What hurt was the Expos series. More specifically, game two. We're going to go through some rough stretches, but also some pretty dominant ones. I said on my very first post back in April that if the Sox were to just be around .500 by the All-Star break they would be in pretty good shape. This is the first year since 2003 were we haven't buried ourselves by now. Keep that in mind. This team has shown a propensity to crank it up a couple of notches in the second half. The Sox are up against some pretty tough pitching for the duration of the week. It could be a difficult time, but it will pass. I have no doubt that this team will get on a roll several times this season. Who knows, we may win more than our share over the next several days.

bartmanisgod
06-21-2004, 10:00 PM
I've lost all playoff hope. A team this inconsistent can never reach the playoffs, let alone get anywhere in them.

Hawk and DJ are on the post-game show right now, of course talking about how the sox have seen such amazing pitching. What a load of crap.

Not a load of crap at all! Florida's pitching staff was also on fire last week and tonight Sabathia had electric stuff. He had 3 or 4 out pitches everytime. Did the offense suck against the Exposes? YES
Did the Offense suck against Sabathia? Yes, but he had alot to do with it!

Relax we will pick up the next three and heat things up for the scrubs!

mdep524
06-21-2004, 10:00 PM
That's how it's been for three, now four years. This is not a mentally tough team. The other difference between the Sox and other contenders is that they are incapable of 8-10 game winning streaks. The Yankees, Twins, A's, Red Sox, and Angels have all had streaks around that long this year. The Sox can't do it because of the fifth starter situation and an inconsistent offense. To win 90 games, there has to be at least 2 or 3 long winning streaks or spans of 12 out of 13, etc. This team doesn't seem to have that type of streak or span in it. Losing 7 out of 8 seems far more likely.
Great post. I agree.

duke of dorwood
06-21-2004, 10:02 PM
I still have had enuf Timo Perez

Daver
06-21-2004, 10:03 PM
:fireward

Somewhere Von Joshua is smiling.

Jjav829
06-21-2004, 10:03 PM
:firejerryAhahaha thanks PHG! That was needed after this game. While we're at it, let's can Von Joshua!

Philo-Sox-er
06-21-2004, 10:03 PM
I think the Crosstown could be what the doctor ordered. Hopefully the team will come to plate hungry and get the first win and start on a tear.

THE_HOOTER
06-21-2004, 10:04 PM
The top 3 starters for the Sox are doing a damn good job--Loiaza, Buerhle, and even garland.

Schoenweiss and the bullpen are showing their lack of talent--

I know this sounds ridiculous, but we really need Rauch to pitch effectively badly.

As a starter or bullpen guy, we need a couple more pitchers who can get guys out.

I think the offense will be a little more solid once Maggs comes back.

bartmanisgod
06-21-2004, 10:04 PM
I wonder which teams are looking at us for a fifth starter?

:dunno:

This could be the worst post ever! If we had a "this post sucks" picture I would apply it!

Dadawg_77
06-21-2004, 10:04 PM
Not a load of crap at all! Florida's pitching staff was also on fire last week and tonight Sabathia had electric stuff. He had 3 or 4 out pitches everytime. Did the offense suck against the Exposes? YES
Did the Offense suck against Sabathia? Yes, but he had alot to do with it!

Relax we will pick up the next three and heat things up for the scrubs!
Thing is there has been way too many pitchers who we have said, "Oh they were on the Sox didn't have a chance." After the 10th time you start to wonder if it really is the pitchers.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-21-2004, 10:05 PM
:firepettis

Daver
06-21-2004, 10:05 PM
The top 3 starters for the Sox are doing a damn good job--Loiaza, Buerhle, and even garland.

Schoenweiss and the bullpen are showing their lack of talent--

I know this sounds ridiculous, but we really need Rauch to pitch effectively badly.

As a starter or bullpen guy, we need a couple more pitchers who can get guys out.

I think the offense will be a little more solid once Maggs comes back.
Thought you left.

nasox
06-21-2004, 10:05 PM
:fireward
You're really going out to clear house here aren't you?:smile:

Fungo
06-21-2004, 10:06 PM
The Sox are now 0-3 since I purchased the #27 Brian Simmons jersey at the annual Yard Sale.

idseer
06-21-2004, 10:07 PM
The Sox are now 0-3 since I purchased the #27 Brian Simmons jersey at the annual Yard Sale.

do the right thing. BURN IT!:redneck

PaleHoseGeorge
06-21-2004, 10:07 PM
Oh God, Wills is taking phone calls. This is going to be priceless...

FarWestChicago
06-21-2004, 10:08 PM
do the right thing. BURN IT!:redneckYou got that right!! http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/eek.gif

Jjav829
06-21-2004, 10:08 PM
The Sox are now 0-3 since I purchased the #27 Brian Simmons jersey at the annual Yard Sale.
Somewhere Brian Simmons just pulled up with a hammy.

BTW, did you actually buy that at the sale or was Brian Simmons working a booth right outside the cell looking to pick up a little cash?

Lip Man 1
06-21-2004, 10:09 PM
I may be wrong but I think the Sox have scored three runs or less in seven of Scott's last nine starts.


Lip

mdep524
06-21-2004, 10:10 PM
This team is moody. For awhile, the Ozzie-ball positive attitude seemed to be carrying the team--they were clicking and playing good baseball. Now, something has dampened the fire and can't put it together. How come our team seems more sensitive than the rest of the contending teams, such that it effects their onfield performance?
:jerry
I saw how poorly the team played last week, so Ozzie asked me to give a speech to fire them up tonight, you know try things my way.... What do you mean you could already tell?

THE_HOOTER
06-21-2004, 10:10 PM
Thought you left.
I thought we were talking baseball?

:bandance:

PaleHoseGeorge
06-21-2004, 10:10 PM
:therapy:

Nard
06-21-2004, 10:11 PM
So this is what happens when a starter throws a Kerry Wood-type fit early in the game and gets a jumbo K-zone the rest of the night.

Man am I tired of us getting dominated by starters.

Who the **** is still whining about MJ? Martinez could've hit Gagne the way he was swinging the bat. The inning was over... it's not MJ's fault that Lee couldn't throw the ball home and Sandy couldn't hang on.

When I saw Martinez go I thought we would win the game... a baserunning mistake to end the inning is a great way to get some momentum to lead into some powerful offense.

Shame Lee can't throw the ****ing ball.

You gotta be ****ing kidding me on national TV too. It's all that **** Merloni's fault. If he doesn't stop "gangsta hat" Sabathia we sweep the series.

And for the love of God, CLEVELAND IS OUT OF CONTENTION. WE'RE catching up with THEM, not the other way around. They have no pen, and the media only loves them because they're young, a bunch of no-names, and go on tiny little win streaks. So a bunch of ESPN scrubs say they could win the central. Who gives a ****?

We better win the next three mother****ing games.

DickAllen72
06-21-2004, 10:12 PM
This is the first year since 2003 were we haven't buried ourselves by now. Keep that in mind.

ROFLMAO!
:)

idseer
06-21-2004, 10:13 PM
So this is what happens when a starter throws a Kerry Wood-type fit early in the game and gets a jumbo K-zone the rest of the night.

Man am I tired of us getting dominated by starters.

Who the **** is still whining about MJ? Martinez could've hit Gagne the way he was swinging the bat. The inning was over... it's not MJ's fault that Lee couldn't throw the ball home and Sandy couldn't hang on.

When I saw Martinez go I thought we would win the game... a baserunning mistake to end the inning is a great way to get some momentum to lead into some powerful offense.

Shame Lee can't throw the ****ing ball.
i saw that play a WHOLE LOT DIFFERENTLY. the throw was perfect! alomar just never looked at it long enough to catch it.
don't lay that on lee.

dickallen15
06-21-2004, 10:14 PM
This team relies on the long ball just as much as last years team. Smallball does not exist on the Southside. For all Ozzie said in his press conference about bunting etc. none of that exists. If the Sox aren't hitting the ball out of the ballpark they will lose.

infohawk
06-21-2004, 10:14 PM
Guys, we still have approximately 60% of the season to go. We'll have our share of hot streaks. Last year the Sox didn't really get it together until after the 4th of July. I still remember Bill Koch giving up that game-winning homer to Carl Crawford. At that point I didn't think they would end up winning even 86 games. The Sox had the second best record in baseball in the second half. Unfortunately, the Twins had the best. :mad:

Anyway, the Sox had some incredible winning streaks in the second half. Had they not been buried so far back last year, they would have won over 90 games and the division, even though they stumbled during that last stretch against the Twins. We are doing far better in the standings now than we did last year.

Remember, neither the Angels in 2002 nor the Marlins in 2003 really got it together until around the All-Star break. The Marlins had (and have) a great pitching staff. The Angels didn't have a staff as good as the Marlins, but they were good enough. They are also in tougher divisions. Let this thing play out. We will have the entire winter to analyze what, if anything, went wrong (and I'm sure we would.):whiner:

Nard
06-21-2004, 10:16 PM
i saw that play a WHOLE LOT DIFFERENTLY. the throw was perfect! alomar just never looked at it long enough to catch it.
don't lay that on lee.
Well I blame Sandy too. The announcers wouldn't shut the **** up about how brilliant a slide it was knocking the ball out of Sandy's mitt... too bad it was never in the stupid mitt in the first place. Sandy missed it entirely.

But the throw was far from perfect.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-21-2004, 10:17 PM
:firenardi

Nard
06-21-2004, 10:17 PM
This team relies on the long ball just as much as last years team. Smallball does not exist on the Southside. For all Ozzie said in his press conference about bunting etc. none of that exists. If the Sox aren't hitting the ball out of the ballpark they will lose.
You want them to do sac bunts when we're down 5-1?

Fungo
06-21-2004, 10:20 PM
i saw that play a WHOLE LOT DIFFERENTLY. the throw was perfect! alomar just never looked at it long enough to catch it.
don't lay that on lee.The throw was there, no question. If Lee were to be at fault at all, it would be that he didn't get behind the ball whatsoever to get himself in throwing position. That being said, the throw was still on the money and it should have been an out at the plate.

Dadawg_77
06-21-2004, 10:21 PM
Is Uribe in a slump yet?

idseer
06-21-2004, 10:21 PM
Well I blame Sandy too. The announcers wouldn't shut the **** up about how brilliant a slide it was knocking the ball out of Sandy's mitt... too bad it was never in the stupid mitt in the first place. Sandy missed it entirely.

But the throw was far from perfect.the only imperfect thing about the throw was that it was 2 bounces. but the bounce was good ... it was perfectly placed ... it beat the runner ... and alomar choked!

Nard
06-21-2004, 10:23 PM
The throw was there, no question. If Lee were to be at fault at all, it would be that he didn't get behind the ball whatsoever to get himself in throwing position. That being said, the throw was still on the money and it should have been an out at the plate.Heh, that's what I was thinking right when he was about to catch it. He's not going, is he? I think the run caught everyone off guard. I sure as hell didn't think he was going, considering how shallow the pop was, and Lee looked kinda surprised too.

Yeah it's dissapointing Sandy wasn't on the ball. Especially after his brilliant play earlier in the game.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-21-2004, 10:23 PM
Is Uribe in a slump yet?
We should have traded Manos two dozen times by now in preparation for raising funds to construct Juan Uribe's wing in Cooperstown.
:wink:

Philo-Sox-er
06-21-2004, 10:24 PM
:pudge

Put me in coach!

DSpivack
06-21-2004, 10:24 PM
Since no one has put it here yet, I figure I'll be the first tonight:

:chickenlittle

:sahaf "I know nothing of this falling. And there is no sky."

infohawk
06-21-2004, 10:24 PM
Correction to my earlier post. What I intended to say is that this is the first year since 2001 (not 2003) that we haven't buried ourselves.:redface:

idseer
06-21-2004, 10:27 PM
Correction to my earlier post. What I intended to say is that this is the first year since 2001 (not 2003) that we haven't buried ourselves.:redface:
it was funnier the other way. :smile:

SOXPHILE
06-21-2004, 10:27 PM
C.C. just has their number it seems. I think he's 7-1 lifetime against the Sox now. Not a good time to go into a slump guys....(Not that there ever is one):mad:

PaleHoseGeorge
06-21-2004, 10:28 PM
:violin:

Jjav829
06-21-2004, 10:30 PM
:flameswing

nasox
06-21-2004, 10:31 PM
Last year the Sox didn't really get it together until after the 4th of July.
Maybe you forgot we didn't make the playoffs last year.

valposoxfan
06-21-2004, 10:32 PM
The top 3 starters for the Sox are doing a damn good job--Loiaza, Buerhle, and even garland.

Schoenweiss and the bullpen are showing their lack of talent--

I know this sounds ridiculous, but we really need Rauch to pitch effectively badly.

As a starter or bullpen guy, we need a couple more pitchers who can get guys out.

I think the offense will be a little more solid once Maggs comes back.
Schoenweiss hasn't given up more than four runs in his last three or four starts. I think he is still doing a damn good job. He's just not getting the offense Buehrle has.

mmmmmbeeer
06-21-2004, 10:33 PM
This team is moody. For awhile, the Ozzie-ball positive attitude seemed to be carrying the team--they were clicking and playing good baseball. Now, something has dampened the fire and can't put it together. How come our team seems more sensitive than the rest of the contending teams, such that it effects their onfield performance?
I think you've got to look at our pitching for the answer. The hitting is sucking but we KNOW that this team can hit. That's why I agree with you that if these guys don't have the confidence, or have something dampen their mood, they don't hit. The fact that we have a 5th starter in the 4th spot, no 5th starter, and a BP that is absolutely awful, has really put a whole lotta stress on this offense, who BTW is without Maggs and just finished up a 6 game stretch also without either Frank or PK. How motivated can you really get when KW has failed to even pick up a used up veteran off the waiver wire to atleast fill the 5th spot void until an effective trade can be accomplished. Schoeneweiss should not be pitching every 5th day. He looked a bit better today, and his first inning troubles appeared to be due to a strikezone the size of a shoebox, but he's not a guy that needs to be a 4th starter. Garland is a #4, not a #3.

I'm confident this team will get it going. We need Maggs back badly and KW absolutely NEEDS to get something done QUICK to get a top 3 starter and some RH BP help. If he has to overpay, so be it. You cannot watch a team skid like this because you don't want to give up a prospect. It's ridiculous.

OurBitchinMinny
06-21-2004, 10:36 PM
We is in big trouble ladies and gentlemen. The tribe is coming and coming quick. IMO Cleveland will win this division and probably regain a stranglehold on it like the late '90s. We blew our chances and let the twins have the division while cleveland was down. Im not optimistic about this club. We have few ML ready prospects and if we dont win it this year, cleveland just has more and more ready. I hope to God Im wrong, but I doubt I am. I know people say clevelands bullpen will be their downfall, but ours sucks too and they have more consistent hitting and pitching. If cleveland does falter which they may, I think once again the twins will win it. Of course KW could go out and fix the situation with a few moves, but I doubt he will and his trades tend to bite us in the ass down the road. Im probably overreacting and there is still plenty of time, but its time to pull the head out of the ass.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-21-2004, 10:38 PM
:firejauron

TornLabrum
06-21-2004, 10:41 PM
And looking real mortal without Magglio
I say trade Magglio now! We can get along just fine without him!

DSpivack
06-21-2004, 10:42 PM
:firejauron
If I was more creative I'd come up with a Mike McCaskey/Dave McGinnis joke here.

Nard
06-21-2004, 10:45 PM
Are you ****ing around with me here? I thought everyone had a love-fest with the unbeatable Twinkies, but now the Tribe is in the picture?

They have two good starting pitchers. The rest are 0-6, 2-5, and Westbrook who is 6-3 but slumping. We have four very solid starters. Don't even get me started on whether Schoey is good or not. After all, tonight he held the lovable, amazing, exploding, AL Central-winning Cleveland offense to only 4 runs in 7 innings.

Their bullpen is garbage. People who say ours stinks need to take a look around. Politte is slumping but has potential and is decent most of the time. MJ had one bad game and everyone wants to crucify him even though he's solid. Cotts is consistently decent. Adkins is dominating. Marte is dominating. And Shingo is the best reliever in the league.

On the ESPN broadcast tonight they must've said 200 times "there's no way Cleveland is supposed to be this close at this time of the year." That's true. It's true because they suck; they're a garbage team that we're catching up with, not the other way around.

They don't stand a chance. If we're gonna have love fests with division opponents can we at least keep it to one team?

samram
06-21-2004, 10:47 PM
I'm confident this team will get it going. We need Maggs back badly and KW absolutely NEEDS to get something done QUICK to get a top 3 starter and some RH BP help. If he has to overpay, so be it. You cannot watch a team skid like this because you don't want to give up a prospect. It's ridiculous.
The problem is you need someone to trade with. No team is willing to throw in the towel quite yet just for the chance to have Jeremy Reed, John Rauch or Joe Borchard. What we're seeing is an increasingly bad situation due to almost a complete failure either by the Sox scouting or player development people develop talent for the major league team. You would think there would be one guy down there that could throw five innings without completely eliminating any chance of winning the game, but apparently not.

TornLabrum
06-21-2004, 10:48 PM
The Sox are now 0-3 since I purchased the #27 Brian Simmons jersey at the annual Yard Sale.
Now we know! It's all YOUR fault!

FarWestChicago
06-21-2004, 10:49 PM
No team is willing to throw in the towel quite yet...Plenty of Sox fans are. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

PaleHoseGeorge
06-21-2004, 10:49 PM
:fireshoop

MRKARNO
06-21-2004, 10:53 PM
:selljerry:thechoice:sellreinsy:JMstays:wh1tesox00

TornLabrum
06-21-2004, 10:57 PM
Schoenweiss hasn't given up more than four runs in his last three or four starts. I think he is still doing a damn good job. He's just not getting the offense Buehrle has.
It's not doing such a good job, though, when you have your team down by 3 runs before they even come to bat. Hell, they were down by one before we even got to our seats!

CubKilla
06-21-2004, 11:08 PM
Schoe is now under .500

The Sox didn't have one in 2003 and they still don't have a 5th starter worth a damn in 2004.

Politte and Jackson are gas cans whom, I'm afraid, have just had the rags that were stuffed into their mouths during Spring Training lit, and they are ready to explode.

Cotts isn't fooling nobody anymore.

Darensbourg?????

Ozzie's managing has become suspect.

The Sox are finally playing to my pre-season expectations. You get what you pay (or, in JR's case, DON'T) for, huh JR?

THE_HOOTER
06-21-2004, 11:10 PM
Are you ****ing around with me here? I thought everyone had a love-fest with the unbeatable Twinkies, but now the Tribe is in the picture?

They have two good starting pitchers. The rest are 0-6, 2-5, and Westbrook who is 6-3 but slumping. We have four very solid starters. Don't even get me started on whether Schoey is good or not. After all, tonight he held the lovable, amazing, exploding, AL Central-winning Cleveland offense to only 4 runs in 7 innings.

Their bullpen is garbage. People who say ours stinks need to take a look around. Politte is slumping but has potential and is decent most of the time. MJ had one bad game and everyone wants to crucify him even though he's solid. Cotts is consistently decent. Adkins is dominating. Marte is dominating. And Shingo is the best reliever in the league.

On the ESPN broadcast tonight they must've said 200 times "there's no way Cleveland is supposed to be this close at this time of the year." That's true. It's true because they suck; they're a garbage team that we're catching up with, not the other way around.

They don't stand a chance. If we're gonna have love fests with division opponents can we at least keep it to one team?

Adkins is dominating????? Try looking at the inherited runs allowed.

Jackson has had several horrible outings in a row.

Cotts has not been effective since his start.

according to the stats, Politte is horrible most of the time, and I believe a late 20's reliever has run our of potential.

Besides Marte and Shingo, the entire bullpen makes me turn the TV off.

smithin
06-21-2004, 11:19 PM
White Sox starters are 24-21, 4.87 ERA ranked 10th AL

Cleveland starters are 19-16, 4.34 ERA ranked 3rd AL

Overall White Sox pitching is ranked 9th in AL with a 4.57 era

Cleveland is 10th with a 4.64 ERA.

I'm not sure the whole the White Sox have better starters is a valid argument.

DSpivack
06-21-2004, 11:25 PM
White Sox starters are 24-21, 4.87 ERA ranked 10th AL

Cleveland starters are 19-16, 4.34 ERA ranked 3rd AL

Overall White Sox pitching is ranked 9th in AL with a 4.57 era

Cleveland is 10th with a 4.64 ERA.

I'm not sure the whole the White Sox have better starters is a valid argument.
Just for fun, take away the fifth starter. Then the Sox starters are something like 24-13, not sure on the ERA.

CWSGuy406
06-22-2004, 12:03 AM
Guys, we still have approximately 60% of the season to go. We'll have our share of hot streaks. Last year the Sox didn't really get it together until after the 4th of July. I still remember Bill Koch giving up that game-winning homer to Carl Crawford. At that point I didn't think they would end up winning even 86 games. The Sox had the second best record in baseball in the second half. Unfortunately, the Twins had the best. :mad:

Anyway, the Sox had some incredible winning streaks in the second half. Had they not been buried so far back last year, they would have won over 90 games and the division, even though they stumbled during that last stretch against the Twins. We are doing far better in the standings now than we did last year.

Remember, neither the Angels in 2002 nor the Marlins in 2003 really got it together until around the All-Star break. The Marlins had (and have) a great pitching staff. The Angels didn't have a staff as good as the Marlins, but they were good enough. They are also in tougher divisions. Let this thing play out. We will have the entire winter to analyze what, if anything, went wrong (and I'm sure we would.):whiner:
In six pages of panic, this has been the best post. I know we're struggling now, but come on guys, put things in perspective a bit. A lot of us said, at the beginning of the year, that we would be happy to be at .500 by June's end.

Well, that's where we are at, actually above it, yet we're playing awful. And had it not been for one unnamed closer, we would be at the very least two games better.

We're struggling right now, that's a fact. But people saying 'we're out of it, we're done', things like that, IMO, is crazy...

CubKilla
06-22-2004, 12:06 AM
Just for fun, take away the fifth starter. Then the Sox starters are something like 24-13, not sure on the ERA.
"Just for fun," imagine that the White Sox are actually owned by someone who cares who signed a pitcher in the offseason to be a fifth starter, who won 3 or 4 of his starts..... up to this point..... and we may be 2, 3, 4, etc. games up in first place.

Nard
06-22-2004, 12:23 AM
Adkins is dominating????? Try looking at the inherited runs allowed.

Jackson has had several horrible outings in a row.

Cotts has not been effective since his start.

according to the stats, Politte is horrible most of the time, and I believe a late 20's reliever has run our of potential.

Besides Marte and Shingo, the entire bullpen makes me turn the TV off.Adkins:
May 27 vs TEX - 1.0 IP, 0 ER
May 29 vs ANA - 2.1 IP, 0 ER
Jun. 02 at OAK - 0.1 IP, 1 ER *** The man is not perfect, he's terrible!!!
Jun. 09 vs PHI - 1.1 IP, 0 ER
Jun. 13 vs ATL - 1.0 IP, 0 ER
Jun. 16 at FLO - 1.2 IP, 0 ER

Except for one bad outing, yeah I'd sure call that dominating.

What about inherited runs allowed? The R and ER columns are identical for his entire season, with the exception of one extra inherited run on April 27th. Oh God no.


MJ:
Jun. 02 at OAK - 1.0 IP, 0 ER
Jun. 05 at SEA - 1.0 IP, 0 ER
Jun. 06 at SEA - 0.1 IP, 0 ER
Jun. 08 vs PHI - 1.0 IP, 5 ER *** We were up by what 7 runs? Who cares?
Jun. 11 vs ATL - 1.1 IP, 0 ER
Jun. 15 at FLO - 1.0 IP, 1 ER *** Didn't get the job done, but not horrible. One run. Jesus Christ one run put him on waivers right now.
Jun. 18 at MON - 0.1 IP, 0 ER
Jun. 19 at MON - 1.0 IP, 1 ER *** They scored about 17 runs that game...
Jun. 21 vs CLE - 0.2 IP, 1 ER *** Not his fault Carlos/Sandy botched throw

I see two costly outings for MJ here, with the Florida one being the only significant one. Ever since the Philly game people have been calling for his head. Why? Look at the ****ing numbers. He's solid.

Yeah Cotts is slumping. But he dominated earlier, 1 earned run in about 12 innings before his start. Will he get back?

And I agree Politte is terrible.

WSox8404
06-22-2004, 12:32 AM
Schoenweiss hasn't given up more than four runs in his last three or four starts. I think he is still doing a damn good job. He's just not getting the offense Buehrle has.
Is that why he was 0 and 3 with a 6.75 ERA in his last three starts before tonight's game?

Nard
06-22-2004, 12:37 AM
What the **** was expected? Is he Roger Clemens?

Everyone was a Schoe's Foe at the start and he's been a pleasant surprise. He has had a small slump but even during that he was nowhere near how bad he was supposed to be. And he didn't do that terribly tonight; a little better than he's been doing lately.

4 runs in 7 innings. Not bad for a 4th starter facing the explosive offense of the projected AL central winner. Who cares if they were all in the first inning or spread throughout?

Fungo
06-22-2004, 08:12 AM
Now we know! It's all YOUR fault!I knew I should have went with the #62 Jim Bullard jersey. You're right, you can blame this funk we're in on me.

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 08:51 AM
Adkins:
May 27 vs TEX - 1.0 IP, 0 ER
May 29 vs ANA - 2.1 IP, 0 ER
Jun. 02 at OAK - 0.1 IP, 1 ER *** The man is not perfect, he's terrible!!!
Jun. 09 vs PHI - 1.1 IP, 0 ER
Jun. 13 vs ATL - 1.0 IP, 0 ER
Jun. 16 at FLO - 1.2 IP, 0 ER

Except for one bad outing, yeah I'd sure call that dominating.

What about inherited runs allowed? The R and ER columns are identical for his entire season, with the exception of one extra inherited run on April 27th. Oh God no.


MJ:
Jun. 02 at OAK - 1.0 IP, 0 ER
Jun. 05 at SEA - 1.0 IP, 0 ER
Jun. 06 at SEA - 0.1 IP, 0 ER
Jun. 08 vs PHI - 1.0 IP, 5 ER *** We were up by what 7 runs? Who cares?
Jun. 11 vs ATL - 1.1 IP, 0 ER
Jun. 15 at FLO - 1.0 IP, 1 ER *** Didn't get the job done, but not horrible. One run. Jesus Christ one run put him on waivers right now.
Jun. 18 at MON - 0.1 IP, 0 ER
Jun. 19 at MON - 1.0 IP, 1 ER *** They scored about 17 runs that game...
Jun. 21 vs CLE - 0.2 IP, 1 ER *** Not his fault Carlos/Sandy botched throw

I see two costly outings for MJ here, with the Florida one being the only significant one. Ever since the Philly game people have been calling for his head. Why? Look at the ****ing numbers. He's solid.

Yeah Cotts is slumping. But he dominated earlier, 1 earned run in about 12 innings before his start. Will he get back?

And I agree Politte is terrible.
When it comes to relievers, ERA and Runs isn't the most important thing to look at. How many inherited runs did he allow to score is the more important question? To answer that I turn to statsic page at baseball prospectus.
Adkins IRP is .4 and his ARP 4.0. For compasion, Takatsu ARP is 12.4 and IRP is 2.2. Politte's IRP is -1.8 and ARP -6.1.

Note Runs does not include iherhited runners bur earned and unearned runs charged to a pitcher, thus that extra run was an unearned run.



IRP -- Inherited Runs Prevented.

The expected number of inherited runners the reliever prevented from scoring. If this number is positive, the reliever is chopping points off his teammates' RAs; if it's negative, he's adding points to his teammates' RAs. It is calculated by looking at the runners on base when the reliever enters the game, figuring out how many would be expected to score given their location on the bases and the number of outs, and comparing that number to (1) the number of inherited runners who actually did score, plus (2) if any of those inherited runners were still on base when the reliever left the game, how many would be expected to score from that state. The formula for a reliever's IRP for a game is

(EIR(sS,P)-EIR(sF, P)-IR) / pe(P)

where

EIR(s,P) is the number of runners that (1) the reliever inherited and (2) are currently on base in state s, who would be expected to score starting from bases/outs state s in park P,
sS is the bases/outs state when the reliever entered the game,
sF is the bases/outs state when the reliever left the game (EIR(sF) is
automatically 0 if the reliever doesn't leave in the same inning he started),
IR is the number of inherited runners that scored while the reliever was in the game, and
pe(P) is the park effect for P.
The number of runs that the reliever prevented over an average pitcher, given the bases/outs situation when he entered and left each game, adjusted for league and park. The exact formula for a reliever's ARP for a game is

(ER(sS,P) - ER(sF,P) + IF*ER(s0,P) - R) / pe(P)
where

ER(s,P) is the expected number of runs that will score in the remainder of an inning starting in bases/outs state s in park P,
sS is the bases/outs state when the reliever entered the game,
sF is the bases/outs state when the reliever left the game,
IF is the number of innings the reliever finished,
s0 is a special state for the beginning of an inning (distinct from the state for no outs, none on),
R is the number of runs that scored while the reliever was in the game, and
pe(P) is the park effect for park P.

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 08:54 AM
Is that why he was 0 and 3 with a 6.75 ERA in his last three starts before tonight's game?
Remember ERA is divided by 9, so if you pitch less then 9 innings, you ERA is higher then the amount of earned runs given up. Thus you could have a 6.75 ERA but only give up 4 runs.

TornLabrum
06-22-2004, 08:56 AM
I knew I should have went with the #62 Jim Bullard jersey. You're right, you can blame this funk we're in on me.
You passed on a Jim Bullard???????? And you call yourself a Sox fan????? :angry:

I wonder if they have any old Jim Willoughby jerseys laying around anywhere....

dickallen15
06-22-2004, 09:00 AM
You want them to do sac bunts when we're down 5-1?
Be real. What I'm saying is they can't score runs without homeruns, at least consistently. Its pretty much the same team as last year. These streaks are going to happen. Manufacturing runs is doesn't occur with this team.

SoxFan78
06-22-2004, 09:10 AM
Im getting really sick of Juan Uribe going down to one knee and popping everything up. I understand he had a great beginning, but he's not as hot as he was before.

DONT KNEEL TO HIT THE BALL.

The sox better step it up before this weekend, or else its gonna be a long Monday morning.

On the bright side, I did get my Sox Pride shirt.

Frater Perdurabo
06-22-2004, 09:10 AM
In six pages of panic, this has been the best post. I know we're struggling now, but come on guys, put things in perspective a bit. A lot of us said, at the beginning of the year, that we would be happy to be at .500 by June's end.

Well, that's where we are at, actually above it, yet we're playing awful. And had it not been for one unnamed closer, we would be at the very least two games better.

We're struggling right now, that's a fact. But people saying 'we're out of it, we're done', things like that, IMO, is crazy...

I'm still on the bandwagon, but I also am a realist. The Angels and Marlins were better-built, multidimensional teams. They had more than just a few right-handed mashers in the middle of the lineup. They had better starting pitching and more speed. They could win with the long ball and with small ball. It is dishonest to think that with the collection of talent that the Sox have that they are on par with the 2003 Marlins and the 2002 Angles.

I really hope I'm wrong, but the Sox as a team are less than the sum of their parts. They lack offensive balance and a third starter (Garland should be #4 and Shoe should be #5) and their bullpen is suspect outside of Shingo and Marte. Harris and Uribe are cooling off fast and Rowand can't hit right-handed pitchers. Crede is improving but it's not enough to offset the slumps at the top of the order. Lee may have had a nice hitting streak, but I've never seen a more "empty" hitting streak than his. He has some nice multi-hit games during team-wide offensive outbursts, but when the offense sputters he's good for an oh-fer. With Maggs gone this team has been exposed for what it is: feast or famine. The fact that they are so right-handed means that when they start to struggle, they press and then pop up or hit into double plays.

I'm the biggest Sliver and Black Kool-Aid drinking Sox fan there is, but I'm honest about what this team is. They need to start moving assets to re-load for a stretch run via trades.

Paulwny
06-22-2004, 09:53 AM
Where is the teal icon ? Anyway this should be in teal.
Along with the sox not hitting last night, Farmio and rooney hit a new low. A !/2 inning discussion about cereal. Gimme a break !

skobabe8
06-22-2004, 09:53 AM
In 1993 entering July we were 39-36. we all know what happened that year. dont nobody go jumpin off any bandwagons just yet....

Cubbiesuck13
06-22-2004, 10:24 AM
Where is the teal icon ? Anyway this should be in teal.
Along with the sox not hitting last night, Farmio and rooney hit a new low. A !/2 inning discussion about cereal. Gimme a break !
what people fail to realize is that cereal can be a very complex and interesting subject. you have your different brands, and different styles and different marketing ideas. what amazes me most about cereal is that it can be had in milk or dry. cereal is truly a complex food. i have enjoyed cereal in all forms. once, in a hangover-haze i poored OJ in my cornflakes. it was not as bad as expected. another thing about cereal is, by definition, not limited to the conventional form. cereal can be any breakfast food. also, who doesn't love those little boxes? they are like big boxes but smaller. in my career as a cereal eater, i have found it advantagous to pick variaty when choosing little boxes over bigger boxes. sometimes, i will by the malto-meal cereal. you know, the kind in the bag witout the box. i am waiting for the fun size bags of those! holy cow! those are fun to eat when you are poor. like me. however, you usually don't get the 'cool' animals on the packaging like with boxed cereal. instead of a tiger, you may get a baby bear. a cub. who the hell wants a cub on the bag of their cereal! what kind of halfbrained idea is puting baby animals on cereal packages?! one day i will get to the bottom of that. in the meantime, enjoy your lucky charms. oh! lets discuss the new marshmellow....

Fungo
06-22-2004, 10:44 AM
You passed on a Jim Bullard???????? And you call yourself a Sox fan????? :angry:

I wonder if they have any old Jim Willoughby jerseys laying around anywhere....
I was trying to find the most obscure name they had. I had my hands on Nossek, Bullard and Simmons jerseys. I passed on Nossek because the jersey I found had a patch missing on one of the sleeves. I liked #27 better than #62, but in hindsight, I should have taken Jim's jersey for the simple fact that he still has a chance to be something whereas Simmons career is over.

Sorry no Willoughby's. No Nordhagen's or Nahorodny's either for that matter.

Frater Perdurabo
06-22-2004, 10:53 AM
:tomatoaward

Frater Perdurabo
06-22-2004, 10:56 AM
I said it in another thread but my point is worth repeating.

While it may be hard to manufacture five runs, it is infinitely easier to manufacture five runs with small ball than it is to hit a five-run homer with the bases empty.

gosox41
06-22-2004, 11:12 AM
In 1993 entering July we were 39-36. we all know what happened that year. dont nobody go jumpin off any bandwagons just yet....
Unfortunately, I don't have the confidence in this team that I had in the 1993 team.

Of course, give me 5 starters and I may change that opinion.


Bob

Lip Man 1
06-22-2004, 12:21 PM
Let's see that 1993 rotation had Jack McDowell, Alex Fernandez, Wilson Alvarez and Jason Bere. Alvarez and Bere combined went 13-2 after August 1st.
I don't think that's going to happen with the 'back end' of the Sox 2004 rotation do you?

Lip

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 01:05 PM
I said it in another thread but my point is worth repeating.

While it may be hard to manufacture five runs, it is infinitely easier to manufacture five runs with small ball than it is to hit a five-run homer with the bases empty.
Well since both are impossible, not sure how one is easier then the other.

skobabe8
06-22-2004, 02:23 PM
Let's see that 1993 rotation had Jack McDowell, Alex Fernandez, Wilson Alvarez and Jason Bere. Alvarez and Bere combined went 13-2 after August 1st.
I don't think that's going to happen with the 'back end' of the Sox 2004 rotation do you?

Lip
Do you think thats what its gonna take to win the division? I dont. Besides, I'm just tryin' to say I'm not packin it yet, thats all. And I won't pack it in until we're mathematically eliminated. I'm not trying to start a debate between the '93 sox and the '04 sox. Just putting some things in perspective. The '93 sox were in worse shape than we are now in the old AL west, went out and picked up another quality starter (Belcher), and found ways to win to clinch the division. You can get ready for your football fantasy draft if you want, as for me, I'm gonna stick by my sox.