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View Full Version : let's talk about rowand again.


idseer
06-21-2004, 08:05 PM
as i write this he's batting .301

i don't know where he'll end up, but i DO know he's obviously NOT the black hole certain memebers have made him out to be.
arguments?

SEALgep
06-21-2004, 08:09 PM
I'm not falling for that, Mr. Randar in disguise. :D:

illinibk
06-21-2004, 08:13 PM
I guess he didn't take a bad route on that inside fastball

infohawk
06-21-2004, 08:22 PM
Nice homer and heady defensive play to back up Perez. I think Aaron is at worst a solid major league player. What might give him a chance to be a little better than that is his intensity. I know it's cliche, but he is a grinder.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-21-2004, 08:31 PM
as i write this he's batting .301

i don't know where he'll end up, but i DO know he's obviously NOT the black hole certain memebers have made him out to be.
arguments?
I smell trouble a brewin'... and just as the 2nd Amendment debate was dying down in the Roadhouse, too.

:)

valposoxfan
06-21-2004, 08:40 PM
I smell trouble a brewin'... and just as the 2nd Amendment debate was dying down in the Roadhouse, too.

:)
Good call PaleHose. Until Rowand stops bobbling balls in the outfield and puts together consistent hitting, I will not believe he can be an everyday player for this team. He is on a good streak right now, but when he is bad, he is brutal. You heard it here first, he will not end the year at .300, period.

Jjav829
06-21-2004, 08:44 PM
Let me save everyone some time....

"Rowand sucks"

"Rowand is a good player"

"You don't know what you're talking about"

"No, you don't know what you're talking about"

"Aaron is a AAA player"

"Aaron is a very good major league"

"You know nothing followed by child insult"

"You know nothing followed by childish retort"

That about summarizes it and in 15 less pages. Carry on to the next thread. :smile:

Daver
06-21-2004, 08:53 PM
They are getting ready to start construction on the Aaron Rowand wing in Cooperstown as I type this.

valposoxfan
06-21-2004, 08:54 PM
They are getting ready to start construction on the Aaron Rowand wing in Cooperstown as I type this.
I heard his dirtbike will be on display.

ndgt10
06-21-2004, 08:59 PM
Rowand - 145 AB = 6 HR
Lee - 258 AB = 6 HR

:?:

valposoxfan
06-21-2004, 09:01 PM
Rowand - 145 AB = 6 HR
Lee - 258 AB = 6 HR

:?:
Yea, but look at the BA's in relation to at-bats...

ndgt10
06-21-2004, 09:06 PM
Yea, but look at the BA's in relation to at-bats...
What's BA's?

idseer
06-21-2004, 09:11 PM
Nice homer and heady defensive play to back up Perez. I think Aaron is at worst a solid major league player. What might give him a chance to be a little better than that is his intensity. I know it's cliche, but he is a grinder.
ok well ... one serious answer. about what i expected. :smile:

Let me save everyone some time....

"Rowand sucks"

"Rowand is a good player"

"You don't know what you're talking about"

"No, you don't know what you're talking about"

"Aaron is a AAA player"

"Aaron is a very good major league"

"You know nothing followed by child insult"

"You know nothing followed by childish retort"

That about summarizes it and in 15 less pages. Carry on to the next thread..
i guess we could do this for every thread here hey?

the fact is aaron is a great topic for discussion imo.
his fielding was trashed and yet his pct. and total chances seem to indicate otherwise. then his hitting was trashed and yet he's hitting .300+ with .900+ ops!

what does the guy have to do to pry open some closed minds around here?
isn't ANYONE willing to admit that maybe aaron is better than they thought?
a lot of folks have claimed that if only he was given some ab's he could produce. no one gave him the benefit of his injury as an excuse for his play last season (i seem to recall many bending over backwards to give frank the benefit of his injury the year before to explain his unfrank-like numbers).

i don't really expect him to end up with those numbers, but i DO think they'll be decent ... and better than a LOT of starting outfielders in the game today.

Randar68
06-21-2004, 09:18 PM
as i write this he's batting .301

i don't know where he'll end up, but i DO know he's obviously NOT the black hole certain memebers have made him out to be.
arguments?
THIS IS HIS PERFECT ROLE. Platoon player, part timer, 4th oF'er.

get over it Mrs. Rowand.

valposoxfan
06-21-2004, 09:21 PM
What's BA's?Batting average.

ndgt10
06-21-2004, 09:25 PM
Batting average.
That's what I thought:

Rowand BA = .310
Lee BA = .291

What's the point?

valposoxfan
06-21-2004, 09:28 PM
That's what I thought:

Rowand BA = .310
Lee BA = .291

What's the point?
Look how many more at bats Lee has and is still near .300. Nothing weird there to me like you were hinting at in your first post.

Randar68
06-21-2004, 09:29 PM
That's what I thought:

Rowand BA = .310
Lee BA = .291

What's the point?During his 'hot streak' he's been facing selected pitching. That's what a platoon player does. Timo/Willie play againist RH'ers, Rowand plays against LH'ers.

It's the best role for a ROLE PLAYER. I can't belive the FOC waited this long to re-appear. Everytime he get's to play everyday he is mediocre, but don't let that stop the "Rowand needs consistent playing time" train...

CHOO CHOO!!!!

:prozac

ndgt10
06-21-2004, 09:36 PM
No, I'm definitely not part of that FOC gang. However, I just thought that it was strange that Lee and Rowand have the same HR total when Rowand has about 100 less at bats.

To set the record straight, I like Rowand just as much as I like Sabathia's ****ed up hat.

idseer
06-21-2004, 09:38 PM
THIS IS HIS PERFECT ROLE. Platoon player, part timer, 4th oF'er.

get over it Mrs. Rowand.
mrs. rowand .... gosh that was funny.

anyway i don't completely disagree with you here. right now with THIS team it should be lee, willie and magglio. but then that wasn't really my point.
why can't you give the guy any credit? if he was still at .235 and .700 ops you'd have a point (at least about his hitting ... you've ALWAYS been wrong about his fielding).
as for lefty righty pitching ... did you always slam jose in like fashion? he always sucked against lefties (still does) and his fielding spoke for itself. i don't recall this hatred for him from you. what gives?

FarWestChicago
06-21-2004, 09:40 PM
as for lefty righty pitching ... did you always slam jose in like fashion? he always sucked against lefties (still does) and his fielding spoke for itself. i don't recall this hatred for him from you. what gives?Geeze id, the FOB/BOM debates were years ago. You still mad about that? http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/confused.gif

idseer
06-21-2004, 09:44 PM
Geeze id, the FOB/BOM debates were years ago. You still mad about that? http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/confused.gif (http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/confused.gif) no, not a bit. was just an example. :smile:

Fungo
06-21-2004, 09:50 PM
Find a taker and trade AAAron while his stock is high. We need pitching.

JRIG
06-21-2004, 09:52 PM
Rowand can hit LHP very well. Always has.

He doesn't hit RHP at all. Never has.

It's pretty much as simple as that. Which is why he's a great platoon player.

owensmouth
06-21-2004, 09:54 PM
As long as he's hot, let him hit second. Uribe is continuing his downward spiral, so move him back to seventh.

Randar68
06-21-2004, 10:13 PM
anyway i don't completely disagree with you here. right now with THIS team it should be lee, willie and magglio. but then that wasn't really my point.
why can't you give the guy any credit? if he was still at .235 and .700 ops you'd have a point (at least about his hitting ... In a regular full-time role, I alwasy thought Rowand was a ~.265 hitter and with divisive splits in terms of RH/LH.


you've ALWAYS been wrong about his fielding). yeah, where are you, a remote Island in the pacific with internet and no TV? He's an average corner OF'er, and below average in CF. I'm glad he made a nice play tonight, the rarity with which that happens always makes me crack-up when they always seem to coincide witht the MONTHLY FOC thread.

as for lefty righty pitching ... did you always slam jose in like fashion? he always sucked against lefties (still does) and his fielding spoke for itself. i don't recall this hatred for him from you. what gives?Yes, i have criticized Jose's terrible splits in terms of RH/LH. Luckily for Jose, somewhere around 80% of IP in MLB are by RH'ers. I give Rowand props for doing well in a utility/4th OF'er role. It is where I have always said his best role is. So how am I wrong again? Oh yeah, all that darn "invalid observational data", right?


bla!

idseer
06-21-2004, 10:19 PM
yeah, where are you, a remote Island in the pacific with internet and no TV? He's an average corner OF'er, and below average in CF. I'm glad he made a nice play tonight, the rarity with which that happens always makes me crack-up when they always seem to coincide witht the MONTHLY FOC thread.

stats say you're wrong with your 'observational data'. i could be on mars and make that assessment. maybe he's not pretty, i don't know or care but stats show he gets the job done in center better than MOST cf'ers.
we'll continue to butt heads on that.

valposoxfan
06-21-2004, 10:23 PM
stats say you're wrong with your 'observational data'. i could be on mars and make that assessment. maybe he's not pretty, i don't know or care but stats show he gets the job done in center better than MOST cf'ers.
we'll continue to butt heads on that.
He's given up at least 3-4 runs on bobbled ground balls in the outfield so far this year. There is no excuse to bobble a single when you are playing corner outfield in the majors. It happens to him on a regular basis. The last time that comes to mind was in Oakland...

Randar68
06-21-2004, 10:26 PM
stats say you're wrong with your 'observational data'. i could be on mars and make that assessment. maybe he's not pretty, i don't know or care but stats show he gets the job done in center better than MOST cf'ers.
we'll continue to butt heads on that.stats are an absolutely ABSURD way to judge defensive ability or effectiveness, let alone for a generally part-time player. IMO, anybody who needs stats to judge defensive ability generally has zero knowledge for the game of baseball and evaluation.

idseer
06-21-2004, 10:28 PM
stats are an absolutely ABSURD way to judge defensive ability or effectiveness, let alone for a generally part-time player. IMO, anybody who needs stats to judge defensive ability generally has zero knowledge for the game of baseball and evaluation.
says you!:tongue:

Randar68
06-21-2004, 10:36 PM
says you!:tongue:
yep, along with just about everyone I respect in the baseball business.

beckett21
06-21-2004, 10:52 PM
Uribe is continuing his downward spiral, so move him back to seventh.
Yeah he only had 7 RBI's Saturday night.....:?:

jeremyb1
06-21-2004, 11:00 PM
They are getting ready to start construction on the Aaron Rowand wing in Cooperstown as I type this.

Just like he was being optioned down to Kannapolis a few months ago, right? I'd have to reread some old posts to be sure but I don't remember any of the Rowand haters conceeding he was a good fourth outfielder a while back.

Randar68
06-21-2004, 11:15 PM
Just like he was being optioned down to Kannapolis a few months ago, right? I'd have to reread some old posts to be sure but I don't remember any of the Rowand haters conceeding he was a good fourth outfielder a while back.
Many Sox fans are reactionary and so wishy-washy that they harp on everything one minute and vote guys into the HOF the next. Again, "haters" is such a strong word, but if that isi the only way you can make your point, have at it. I think Rowand is still bobbling those 2 balls in consectutive games in Oakland. You'd think he was a juggler.

CubKilla
06-21-2004, 11:24 PM
Just like he was being optioned down to Kannapolis a few months ago, right? I'd have to reread some old posts to be sure but I don't remember any of the Rowand haters conceeding he was a good fourth outfielder a while back.
No MLB team is going to be considered a legitimate threat to win a WS Title with Rowand in CF.

Blueprint1
06-21-2004, 11:39 PM
yeah were the joke of the league with rowand in center how about we move a second baseman out there that cant hit anything but singles. Oh yeah and is one of the fastest people in baseball but cant steal a base. Rowand is not a Great player but hes better than timo or Harris thats just my opinion.

Frater Perdurabo
06-22-2004, 08:47 AM
Find a taker and trade AAAron while his stock is high. We need pitching.

Rowand to the Rays for Carl Crawford, straight up. Get on the phone, Kenny.

misty60481
06-22-2004, 08:51 AM
I agree with blueprint AAron is a much better ballplayer than both Harris & Timo

Randar68
06-22-2004, 10:36 AM
yeah were the joke of the league with rowand in center how about we move a second baseman out there that cant hit anything but singles. Oh yeah and is one of the fastest people in baseball but cant steal a base. Rowand is not a Great player but hes better than timo or Harris thats just my opinion.
Yeah, or play a guy there everyday that can't hit RH'ers, or judge a ball hit right at him, or set his feet before throwing home on a fly ball, or steal ANY bases

:dtroll:

Willie's been one of the few consistent contributors on offense, and you want to replace him with Rowand? *****... To steal a line from The Simpsons:

"Worst... Post... Ever..."

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 10:44 AM
says you!:tongue:
Well stats judging field work are weak at best currently, but there is work on improving metrics so we have better numbers to work with.

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 10:45 AM
yep, along with just about everyone I respect in the baseball business.
Well that isn't saying much, since you could respect them since you have the same point of view. Thus anyone who you disagree with, no matter of validity of their point, you disrespect.

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 10:46 AM
Yeah he only had 7 RBI's Saturday night.....:?:
one night means nothing in the greater scheme of things, overall this month his OBP is at .298 currently. That is abysmal and below replacement level.

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 10:50 AM
vs Southpaws .400/.476/.709
vs Righties .253/.284/.440

kjhanson
06-22-2004, 10:53 AM
It's funny how everyone continues to criticize Aaron. It's completely unwarranted. First off, he's not going to be playing everyday once Magglio is back. In the meantime, he has been more than serviceable. His defense is adequate. He has the best arm of any of our outfielders. As far as the four or so groundballs that he has bobbled in the outfield, he was only credited with an error on one of them (allowing an unearned run to score). The rest allowed a meaningless baserunner to advance a base. Granted, we don't want that happening in a late game situation, but he has been more than sufficient up to this point. He has 5 outfield assists, which is tied for Carlos for the team lead, and he has done it starting 22 less games. Need I mention that he has 16 doubles which is third on the team? He has 2 less extra-base hits than Carlos in 113 less at-bats. I'm not going to try to say he's as adequate as Carlos, but I think we should be comparing him to Timo Perez at the moment. Timo is slugging 150 points lower than Aaron, only has one outfield assists and NO stolen bases. Aaron is 6 for 7, which is second on the team. I also don't buy the arguement that Aaron has decent numbers because he faces favorable pitching. He's hitting a respectable .253 off of righthanders. Compare that to Timo hitting .200 off of lefties and only .299 off righthanders. At least Aaron is hitting .400 in his favorable matchups and 50 points higher in his non-favorable matchups. He runs well, throws well, and has decent pop. If we were able to move Jose for a middle reliever and afford to trade for a big name starter with the money saved on Jose, I'd be more than happy to have Aaron out there as my everyday centerfielder. He's not the reason we're losing games right now.

Randar68
06-22-2004, 10:54 AM
vs Southpaws .400/.476/.709
vs Righties .253/.284/.440
ergo, "platoon player"

beckett21
06-22-2004, 11:01 AM
one night means nothing in the greater scheme of things, overall this month his OBP is at .298 currently. That is abysmal and below replacement level.
By the same token 3 weeks means nothing in the greater scheme of a 6-month season.....you are not going to drag me down this path again. :rolleyes:

Two days prior he has 7 RBI, then he is *below replacement level* ? GMAB

<*going down path against my will*>

Let's stick to Rowand here for simplicity sake....I did not bring up Uribe in the first place.

eshunn2001
06-22-2004, 11:10 AM
It's funny how everyone continues to criticize Aaron. It's completely unwarranted. First off, he's not going to be playing everyday once Magglio is back. In the meantime, he has been more than serviceable. His defense is adequate. He has the best arm of any of our outfielders. As far as the four or so groundballs that he has bobbled in the outfield, he was only credited with an error on one of them (allowing an unearned run to score). The rest allowed a meaningless baserunner to advance a base. Granted, we don't want that happening in a late game situation, but he has been more than sufficient up to this point. He has 5 outfield assists, which is tied for Carlos for the team lead, and he has done it starting 22 less games. Need I mention that he has 16 doubles which is third on the team? He has 2 less extra-base hits than Carlos in 113 less at-bats. I'm not going to try to say he's as adequate as Carlos, but I think we should be comparing him to Timo Perez at the moment. Timo is slugging 150 points lower than Aaron, only has one outfield assists and NO stolen bases. Aaron is 6 for 7, which is second on the team. I also don't buy the arguement that Aaron has decent numbers because he faces favorable pitching. He's hitting a respectable .253 off of righthanders. Compare that to Timo hitting .200 off of lefties and only .299 off righthanders. At least Aaron is hitting .400 in his favorable matchups and 50 points higher in his non-favorable matchups. He runs well, throws well, and has decent pop. If we were able to move Jose for a middle reliever and afford to trade for a big name starter with the money saved on Jose, I'd be more than happy to have Aaron out there as my everyday centerfielder. He's not the reason we're losing games right now.

I agree, For people saying Rowand cannot hit Righties, He hits righties better than Valentin hit lefties better than Perez hits lefties, He is hitting righties better than Konerko, And Mags Is hittin .278 against righties. Damn Rowand is solid, Get over it.

Mohoney
06-22-2004, 11:17 AM
Let me save everyone some time....

"Rowand sucks"

"Rowand is a good player"

"You don't know what you're talking about"

"No, you don't know what you're talking about"

"Aaron is a AAA player"

"Aaron is a very good major league"

"You know nothing followed by child insult"

"You know nothing followed by childish retort"

That about summarizes it and in 15 less pages. Carry on to the next thread. :smile:

great list, but you forgot one thing.

"Rowand picture with childish mock gibe underneath"

Randar68
06-22-2004, 11:24 AM
vs Southpaws .400/.476/.709 (55 AB's)
vs Righties .253/.284/.440 (91 AB's)
Willie:
.319/.396/.375 vs RH'ers (163 AB's)
.156/.206/.188 vs LH'ers (32 AB's)

Timo:
.260/.299/.360 vs RH'ers (100 AB's) (.290/.325/.420 over last 3 years vs. RH'ers)
only 10 AB's against LH'ers, but is a career

Jose:
.281/.340/.630 vs RH'ers
.218/.283/.345 vs LH'ers


When Maggs is healthy, Willie and Jose should play vs. RH'ers, and Rowand (Jose should probably still play) should play vs. Lefties.

That's what a 4th OF'er is. Unfortunately, we basically have Gload, Harris, Rowand and Timo as 4th OF'ers, and we don't have a 3rd (with Maggs Hurt we don't have a 2nd).

Look slike a bunch of platoon players to me. Nothing wrong with that, but making any of them out to be anything more than that is ignoring reality.

idseer
06-22-2004, 03:15 PM
vs Southpaws .400/.476/.709
vs Righties .253/.284/.440
dadawg ... where did you find those stats?

maurice
06-22-2004, 03:17 PM
So, everybody finally is in agreement that Rowand is a solid 4th OF and a pretty good platoon player, and that he's not going to become an All Star. It's well established that anybody who claims he's an All Star will be derided and shouted down. From here on out, I expect that anybody who claims that Rowand is not a MLB player (e.g., calling him a AAA or AA player) similarly will be derided and shouted down by FOC and Rowand-haters alike.

It also would be nice if, the next time Rowand has a good game, nobody responds, "yeah, but once he booted two balls in one series."

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 03:18 PM
dadawg ... where did you find those stats?
ESPN, just play with their spilts.

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 03:20 PM
By the same token 3 weeks means nothing in the greater scheme of a 6-month season.....you are not going to drag me down this path again. :rolleyes:

Two days prior he has 7 RBI, then he is *below replacement level* ? GMAB

<*going down path against my will*>

Let's stick to Rowand here for simplicity sake....I did not bring up Uribe in the first place.
Trust me, you don't have to preach sample size to me, I was merely pointing out Uribe's June has been bad.

Randar68
06-22-2004, 03:23 PM
It also would be nice if, the next time Rowand has a good game, nobody responds, "yeah, but once he booted two balls in one series."
Nobody's done that in weeks that wasn't brought on by somebody posting a FOC thread after one good game, which is about once every 2 weeks.

the "Rowand haters" have always said he's a good 4th OF'er, and a bad starting CF'er. I really don't know where the debate lies now, since that has been proved to have been 100% accurate.

idseer
06-22-2004, 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by Dadawg_77
vs Southpaws .400/.476/.709
vs Righties .253/.284/.440


ergo, "platoon player"

frank thomas

vs southpaws .244/.466/.512
vs righties .310/.458/.658

ergo "platoon player"

only difference is frank walks more against lefties.

Flight #24
06-22-2004, 03:26 PM
I agree, For people saying Rowand cannot hit Righties, He hits righties better than Valentin hit lefties better than Perez hits lefties, He is hitting righties better than Konerko, And Mags Is hittin .278 against righties. Damn Rowand is solid, Get over it.
The problem is that righties make up what - 80% of MLB pitching? So Rowand hitting lefties and hitting .250 v. righties v. Perez hitting .300 v. righties and .200 v. lefties is a battle that Perez wins almost every day (well, 80% of days).

As I believe Randar put it....hence platoon player

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 03:27 PM
Willie:
.319/.396/.375 vs RH'ers (163 AB's)
.156/.206/.188 vs LH'ers (32 AB's)

Timo:
.260/.299/.360 vs RH'ers (100 AB's) (.290/.325/.420 over last 3 years vs. RH'ers)
only 10 AB's against LH'ers, but is a career

Jose:
.281/.340/.630 vs RH'ers
.218/.283/.345 vs LH'ers


When Maggs is healthy, Willie and Jose should play vs. RH'ers, and Rowand (Jose should probably still play) should play vs. Lefties.

That's what a 4th OF'er is. Unfortunately, we basically have Gload, Harris, Rowand and Timo as 4th OF'ers, and we don't have a 3rd (with Maggs Hurt we don't have a 2nd).

Look slike a bunch of platoon players to me. Nothing wrong with that, but making any of them out to be anything more than that is ignoring reality.
You might want to include Uribe or Konerko.

Uribe
.262/.338/.492 LH 65
.326/.374/.547 RH 55

Konerko
.327/.415/.673 LH 181
.248/.351/.461 RH 165

But to really get a platoon going we need to see break out by pitch types. I would be Konerko is worlds better facing righties whose main pitch is a fastball then guys who have good breaking balls.

Flight #24
06-22-2004, 03:27 PM
Originally Posted by Dadawg_77
vs Southpaws .400/.476/.709
vs Righties .253/.284/.440




frank thomas

vs southpaws .244/.466/.512
vs righties .310/.458/.658

ergo "platoon player"

only difference is frank walks more against lefties.
Yeah, because Frank has no history of hitting lefties......

Rowand's career splits mimic his splits this year. There's no reason to believe that's likely to change.

Frater Perdurabo
06-22-2004, 03:28 PM
Can't we all just acknowledge that Rowand's average has improved thanks to the fact that Ozzie has been playing him for the most part against left-handed pitching? I know I'm not the first one to post this, even in this thread.

We all knew that Uribe wasn't going to hit .340 for the whole season. He's not as bad as he looked in Colorado but he's not a .340 hitter, either.

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by Dadawg_77
vs Southpaws .400/.476/.709
vs Righties .253/.284/.440




frank thomas

vs southpaws .244/.466/.512
vs righties .310/.458/.658

ergo "platoon player"

only difference is frank walks more against lefties.
The thing is that is not in line with his past thus you can be safe to ignore it at this point of the season. Plus a OPS over 850 on your bad side prevents you from being listed as a platoon player.

Randar68
06-22-2004, 03:31 PM
Originally Posted by Dadawg_77
vs Southpaws .400/.476/.709
vs Righties .253/.284/.440




frank thomas

vs southpaws .244/.466/.512
vs righties .310/.458/.658

ergo "platoon player"

only difference is frank walks more against lefties.
I don't think "more" is a strong enough word. In addition, Frank has killed lefties over a long illustrious career. His OBP is 222 points higher than his average vs. lefties. "more" should be substituted with "ridiculously higher and more valuable rate of walks" His OPS vs lefties is just a hair short of 1.000!!!! LOL!

ode to veeck
06-22-2004, 03:34 PM
correction: the error charged to Rowand on a bobbled ball was in Oakland because he allowed the batter to reach 2nd on a single, not an unearned run to score. Nobody is charged with an error on a single these days when (for whatever reason) the runner scores from 2nd

Randar68
06-22-2004, 03:35 PM
Can't we all just acknowledge that Rowand's average has improved thanks to the fact that Ozzie has been playing him for the most part against left-handed pitching? I know I'm not the first one to post this, even in this thread.
That's all I've tried to get people to recognize (4th OF'er/platoon player) for the better part of 6 months. If you can do it in one day, I think I might erect a temple of worship for you...

Randar68
06-22-2004, 03:36 PM
correction: the error charged to Rowand on a bobbled ball was in Oakland because he allowed the batter to reach 2nd on a single, not an unearned run to score. Nobody is charged with an error on a single these days when (for whatever reason) the runner scores from 2nd
And the bobble the previous day allowed a runner to advance a base with no error charged the day before, the eventual winning run.

Nevermind.

:beatsheadagainstwall

TimoPerez
06-22-2004, 03:37 PM
Forget my name for the moment and just listen to what I am saying. Timo and Rowand are each guaranteed to hit opposite handed pitching for a .300 average, and an OBP of at least .040 higher. Platoon them. They are both very good defensively, have very strong arms, and will hit a lot of doubles. Also, both can steal bases. Although Timo has not been extremely successful, he said that he can steal at least 25 in a season. It's not like Rowand will never play if he is only starting against lefties. The entire Royals staff is left handed! The Indians have some lefties as well. I think a lefty/righty platoon would definitely be the best for the team.

Randar68
06-22-2004, 03:38 PM
You might want to include Uribe or Konerko.

Uribe
.262/.338/.492 LH 65
.326/.374/.547 RH 55

Konerko
.327/.415/.673 LH 181
.248/.351/.461 RH 165

But to really get a platoon going we need to see break out by pitch types. I would be Konerko is worlds better facing righties whose main pitch is a fastball then guys who have good breaking balls.
Your Uribe numbers are wrong and his 3-year splits show that he has historically hit LH'ers better than RH'ers until this year.

idseer
06-22-2004, 03:38 PM
The thing is that is not in line with his past thus you can be safe to ignore it at this point of the season. Plus a OPS over 850 on your bad side prevents you from being listed as a platoon player.
the thing is aaron doesn't have much of a past. not one whole season yet in fact. i KNOW i was being absurd making that comparison but it was to show how absurd randars post was. almost EVERY player is weaker one way than the other. that doesn't mean they're all platoon players.

the fact is randar is NOW saying aaron is a good 4th of'er. i just tried looking up his earlier posts where he suggests aaron is not a major league caliber player period but he has too many posts and it's not worth the search. my original intent was simply to say aaron is doing a damn good job and wouldn't it be nice if some haters acknowledged it.

guess it was too much to expect.

Frater Perdurabo
06-22-2004, 03:38 PM
That's all I've tried to get people to recognize (4th OF'er/platoon player) for the better part of 6 months. If you can do it in one day, I think I might erect a temple of worship for you...

I know. I just hope that you don't really beat your head into the wall, because your insights, especially into the Sox prospects, are great and much appreciated.

maurice
06-22-2004, 03:39 PM
the "Rowand haters" have always said he's a good 4th OF'er, and a bad starting CF'er.
You know that's simply not true. Plenty of folks over the years have posted that he's not a MLB player, that he's a AAAA player, that he's should be called AAAron, etc. None of these things are true if everybody agrees that he's a good 4th OF.

I really don't know where the debate lies now
I guess it lies with the distinction between "bad" and "adequate," but that's been beaten to death, often in a subjective manner. Otherwise, there's no debate at all . . . just sniping ad nauseum. In any event, Crash has taken much more of a beating than he's deserved.


:KW
"Lay off him. He's a grinder."

JRIG
06-22-2004, 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by Dadawg_77
vs Southpaws .400/.476/.709
vs Righties .253/.284/.440




frank thomas

vs southpaws .244/.466/.512
vs righties .310/.458/.658

ergo "platoon player"

only difference is frank walks more against lefties.
Ridiculous. I stopped laughing long enough to take the 10 seconds necessary to pull up Frank splits against LHP in his career:

.334/.459/.659 for an OPS of 1.118

Last year?

.315/.446/.732 for an OPS of 1.177

Rowand, career, against RHP is .257/.303/.400 for an OPS of .703

Frater Perdurabo
06-22-2004, 03:40 PM
I think a lefty/righty platoon would definitely be the best for the team.

Best for the short-term until the Sox can make a deal for Steve Finley or Carl Crawford. :smile:

TimoPerez
06-22-2004, 03:43 PM
Best for the short-term until the Sox can make a deal for Steve Finley or Carl Crawford. :smile:Well, obviously either of those would be nice, but because I like Timo so much, I would rather see him play. I know it is selfish, but I just like the guy too damn much.

idseer
06-22-2004, 03:43 PM
Ridiculous. I stopped laughing long enough to take the 10 seconds necessary to pull up Frank splits against LHP in his career:

.334/.459/.659 for an OPS of 1.118

Last year?

.315/.446/.732 for an OPS of 1.177

Rowand, career, against RHP is .257/.303/.400 for an OPS of .703
not my fault you couldn't figure out what i was doing.

Randar68
06-22-2004, 03:51 PM
You know that's simply not true. Plenty of folks over the years have posted that he's not a MLB player, that he's a AAAA player, that he's should be called AAAron, etc. None of these things are true if everybody agrees that he's a good 4th OF.


I guess it lies with the distinction between "bad" and "adequate," but that's been beaten to death, often in a subjective manner. Otherwise, there's no debate at all . . . just sniping ad nauseum. In any event, Crash has taken much more of a beating than he's deserved.

When people prop him up to God-like status and post giddy crap like "he's a great CF'er", I'm compelled to point out the evidence to the contrary. Unfortunately, I've basically been at my wit's end goving over and over the undisputable "observational data" that he isn't anything more than a mediocre fielder, or that he's anything better than a ~.265 or so hitter if he played every day.

When people are up in the clouds, the only way to argue is to point out the negatives. By pointing out the negatives, unfortunately having to do it over and over and over, it makes those people out to be "haters" or "unfair" or "mean" or whatever.

That is simply not the case. Now all the FOC see he's a 4th OF'er or platoon player, as I've been saying for years, and now the tune has changed. What a totally unsuspected course this has taken.

ode to veeck
06-22-2004, 03:51 PM
And the bobble the previous day allowed a runner to advance a base with no error charged the day before, the eventual winning run.

Nevermind.

:beatsheadagainstwall
Randar, Not sure what your point was, and I don't remember this happening the day before (but will check my scorebook from the game). Even if Durazo had gone to second on a single to Rowand in the 12th, such a bobble woulda been really immaterial in Kielty's 9 pitch AB walk off HR winning of the game ...

Randar68
06-22-2004, 03:52 PM
Randar, Not sure what your point was, and I don't remember this happening the day before (but will check my scorebook from the game). Even if Durazo had gone to second on a single to Rowand in the 12th, such a bobble woulda been really immaterial in Kielty's 9 pitch AB walk off HR winning of the game ...Sorry, I am having a hard time remebering the exact details, but his misplayed a grounder lat ein that game, maybe it was the tying run that scored in the first game due to it, via a later sac fly? I'll have to look back.

I remember it happenning in both games that he misplayed ground balls to him. I just can't remember the exact circumstances in either.

The one he was given an error on was a shallow hard-hit looper ove the IF that Rowand had a definite play at the plate. Again, I won't even detail his many numerous misplays of line-drives to CF.

Randar68
06-22-2004, 04:06 PM
I know. I just hope that you don't really beat your head into the wall, because your insights, especially into the Sox prospects, are great and much appreciated.
I appreciate the kind words. Unfortunately, a select group of immature posters calls that "hyping the prospects"

maurice
06-22-2004, 04:10 PM
I have no problem with sharp responses directed at folks who still think Rowand is an All Star. My only point is, to ensure fairness, the responses should be equally sharp to folks who claim he's not a MLB player.

It's not Rowand's fault that lots of folks have badly miscalculated his value over the years. After taking a step back from the context of the FOC debates, one recognizes that it's quite an accomplishment to be a career .280 hitter with decent pop in the show at the age of 26 and after four years of part-time duty, while apparently remaining an all-around good guy. At his salary, that's a pretty good guy to have on your roster, though less than ideal as a starting OF

idseer
06-22-2004, 04:33 PM
I have no problem with sharp responses directed at folks who still think Rowand is an All Star. My only point is, to ensure fairness, the responses should be equally sharp to folks who claim he's not a MLB player.


the whole thing is bull and i can't believe you bought into it.

please ... point out just ONE poster who claimed aaron is/was an allstar. just one. and anyone who elevated him to 'god-like status!
if you can find none then your whole premise is flawed.

the fact is it's hyperbole intended to make ANY one who thinks aaron is a good player to have on this team look like an ignorant bozo. that might work in some neighborhoods, but not mine. this is all about
not being able to admit you're (and i don't mean you maurice) wrong about a player. wrong in the trash you've piled on and wrong about those who've defended his value.

frankly it's chickenstool.

Randar68
06-22-2004, 05:02 PM
the whole thing is bull and i can't believe you bought into it.

please ... point out just ONE poster who claimed aaron is/was an allstar. just one. and anyone who elevated him to 'god-like status!
if you can find none then your whole premise is flawed.

the fact is it's hyperbole intended to make ANY one who thinks aaron is a good player to have on this team look like an ignorant bozo. that might work in some neighborhoods, but not mine. this is all about
not being able to admit you're (and i don't mean you maurice) wrong about a player. wrong in the trash you've piled on and wrong about those who've defended his value.

frankly it's chickenstool.
If you insist.

"Aaron is a great CF'er" - Posted MANY times by the likes of SEALgep and others.

Others with indirect quotes were:

- he needed regular playing time and people were looking for him to hit .300.
- the 100 AB or so at the end of 2002(IIRC) where he had a decent walk rate, would be the norm under regular PT
- the great defensive CF'er horse patooey

The trend of ignoring the significant minor league and major league history of him at the plate in addition to this false labeling of him as a "great defensive CF'er" is what drew the ire.

However, I just can't put it quite as eloquent as you...

Randar68
06-22-2004, 05:03 PM
I have no problem with sharp responses directed at folks who still think Rowand is an All Star.
I'm pretty sure nobody is of that thought any longer, but I wouldn't be surprised...

jeremyb1
06-22-2004, 05:25 PM
I'm pretty sure nobody is of that thought any longer, but I wouldn't be surprised...

Well I realize people did characterize Rowand as a potential All-Star in the past but I think it's a bit revisionist to suggest that was common in the past. It was quite race and IIRC those comments were not coming from frequent posters. I'm pretty confident far more posters have referred to him as AAAron (which even happens in this thread!) and suggested we cut him or send him to the minors. I've said for sometime that his best role is as a fourth outfielder due to his ability to play all three outfield spots and mash against lefties but I don't feel like there's been so much agreement until now.

RedPinStripes
06-22-2004, 05:29 PM
Damn, whenever Rowand's name is typed, Randar is all over it. LOL!:D:

ode to veeck
06-22-2004, 05:30 PM
The one he was given an error on was a shallow hard-hit looper ove the IF that Rowand had a definite play at the plate. Again, I won't even detail his many numerous misplays of line-drives to CF
the error was for the runner that went to 2nd on the single not any possible play at the plate, the single although shallow, also was a looper with more time in the air than a sharpy lined ball. Aaron may have had the opportuntiy for a play at the plate, but also arguable there vs keeping the runner at 1st-

personally I like him in right better than center, but when maggs is back, he'll probably platoon mostly in CF

idseer
06-22-2004, 06:34 PM
If you insist.

The trend of ignoring the significant minor league and major league history of him at the plate in addition to this false labeling of him as a "great defensive CF'er" is what drew the ire.


yeah ... i was ignoring his triple a stats of .295 16 hr's and 48 rbi's in 82 games in 2001.

A. Cavatica
06-22-2004, 08:07 PM
point out just ONE poster who claimed aaron is/was an allstar.
I've never claimed this, though you could read one of my arguments that way.

I've maintained Aaron was a better player than Carl Everett at the time KW went and got Everett (considering offense, defense, character, and age). IMHO Everett did not deserve to be an All-Star outfielder last season. For the record, Rowand didn't either.

Philo-Sox-er
06-23-2004, 07:32 AM
Aaron Rowand is leading the majors in hitting this past month.
He has hit .455 (25-for-55) since May 23rd in a part-time capacity. Perhaps manager Ozzie Guillen should consider playing Rowand a little more frequently than three times a week. Jun. 23 - 7:49 am et
Source: Chicago Sun-Times (http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-doug231.html)


from rotoworld.com

comiskey
06-23-2004, 09:24 PM
Well, after the grand slam by Cleveland tonight, another great bullpen outing was witnessed. Iit was a matter of time, but our starting pitching can't go 7.0 to 8.0 innings every single night. In comes the bullpen.....Mike Jackson.....Cliff Politte....Neal Cotts.....Jon Adkins......DOES THIS BULLPEN SCARE ANYONE??!!

You can all thank Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams for another season of fading divisional title hopes. You could see the slide coming the second the Sox finished their West Coast trip (flop) again a couple of weeks ago. Again, because everyone thought Koch could get the job done. He SUCKS!! If not for a game saving 2-run homer by Valentin last evening, the Sox would be tied with the Tribe for second place. This isn't Cleveland of 6 or 7 years ago.....this is a rebuilding squad that has no right to be competing with the White Sox for a division crown. But, here they are. Thanks to horrific daily outings by the Sox bullpen, and tomorrow's pending loss via the 5th starter role (again!!!!!) the Sox will lose again - thanks again to the mangerial brass for being stubborn and cheap not to get a 5th pitcher. Thanks guys. What has it been, weeks? Weeks since we talked about getting a 5th starter and nothing to show for it. How many games do we need to fall back of Minnesota to realize that our farm system pitching just sucks (or at least, isn't ready for the majors) and the only way we can win this year is to acquire a proven winner see: Livan Hernandez, Freddy Garcia, etc. This much is clear: The Tribe will be leaving Chicago a game behind the Sox. Rauch will get hammered tomorrow by hot Cleveland hitting. The Sox and Kenny Williams will say, "we're looking, just nothing there" for starting pitching. And the Sox will be 5 games out of first place by the end of the second Cubs series in a little over a week. Mark my words!!!.....this is the beginning of the end for our team.

THANKS AGAIN REINSDORF, YOU CHEAP ASS!! THANKS AGAIN WILLIAMS, YOU PUPPET!! ENJOY THE SOUTH SIDE, OZZIE. THIS IS THE **** WE PUT UP WITH EVERY SINGLE YEAR. WHAT A DISGRACE!!

Daver
06-23-2004, 09:27 PM
Have you considered switching to decaf?

OurBitchinMinny
06-23-2004, 09:29 PM
you know what bugs me about rowand? Its nothing personal, but its his situational hitting. Bases loaded in the second with 2 outs and he pops up. And then when they are down with no one on base he will hit an occassional solo shot. But I wont deny that hes been playing better as of late

idseer
06-23-2004, 09:29 PM
Well, after the grand slam by Cleveland tonight, another great bullpen outing was witnessed. Iit was a matter of time, but our starting pitching can't go 7.0 to 8.0 innings every single night. In comes the bullpen.....Mike Jackson.....Cliff Politte....Neal Cotts.....Jon Adkins......DOES THIS BULLPEN SCARE ANYONE??!!

You can all thank Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams for another season of fading divisional title hopes. You could see the slide coming the second the Sox finished their West Coast trip (flop) again a couple of weeks ago. Again, because everyone thought Koch could get the job done. He SUCKS!! If not for a game saving 2-run homer by Valentin last evening, the Sox would be tied with the Tribe for second place. This isn't Cleveland of 6 or 7 years ago.....this is a rebuilding squad that has no right to be competing with the White Sox for a division crown. But, here they are. Thanks to horrific daily outings by the Sox bullpen, and tomorrow's pending loss via the 5th starter role (again!!!!!) the Sox will lose again - thanks again to the mangerial brass for being stubborn and cheap not to get a 5th pitcher. Thanks guys. What has it been, weeks? Weeks since we talked about getting a 5th starter and nothing to show for it. How many games do we need to fall back of Minnesota to realize that our farm system pitching just sucks (or at least, isn't ready for the majors) and the only way we can win this year is to acquire a proven winner see: Livan Hernandez, Freddy Garcia, etc. This much is clear: The Tribe will be leaving Chicago a game behind the Sox. Rauch will get hammered tomorrow by hot Cleveland hitting. The Sox and Kenny Williams will say, "we're looking, just nothing there" for starting pitching. And the Sox will be 5 games out of first place by the end of the second Cubs series in a little over a week. Mark my words!!!.....this is the beginning of the end for our team.

THANKS AGAIN REINSDORF, YOU CHEAP ASS!! THANKS AGAIN WILLIAMS, YOU PUPPET!! ENJOY THE SOUTH SIDE, OZZIE. THIS IS THE **** WE PUT UP WITH EVERY SINGLE YEAR. WHAT A DISGRACE!!
not sure what any of this has to do with rowand ... but.....:dunno:

idseer
06-23-2004, 09:31 PM
you know what bugs me about rowand? Its nothing personal, but its his situational hitting. Bases loaded in the second with 2 outs and he pops up. And then when they are down with no one on base he will hit an occassional solo shot. But I wont deny that hes been playing better as of latetruthfully i think you can point out that every hitter in the game has done that. fact is tho some of rowands hits have been VERY timely.

maybe you're thinking of konerko?

OurBitchinMinny
06-23-2004, 09:32 PM
Well, after the grand slam by Cleveland tonight, another great bullpen outing was witnessed. Iit was a matter of time, but our starting pitching can't go 7.0 to 8.0 innings every single night. In comes the bullpen.....Mike Jackson.....Cliff Politte....Neal Cotts.....Jon Adkins......DOES THIS BULLPEN SCARE ANYONE??!!

You can all thank Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams for another season of fading divisional title hopes. You could see the slide coming the second the Sox finished their West Coast trip (flop) again a couple of weeks ago. Again, because everyone thought Koch could get the job done. He SUCKS!! If not for a game saving 2-run homer by Valentin last evening, the Sox would be tied with the Tribe for second place. This isn't Cleveland of 6 or 7 years ago.....this is a rebuilding squad that has no right to be competing with the White Sox for a division crown. But, here they are. Thanks to horrific daily outings by the Sox bullpen, and tomorrow's pending loss via the 5th starter role (again!!!!!) the Sox will lose again - thanks again to the mangerial brass for being stubborn and cheap not to get a 5th pitcher. Thanks guys. What has it been, weeks? Weeks since we talked about getting a 5th starter and nothing to show for it. How many games do we need to fall back of Minnesota to realize that our farm system pitching just sucks (or at least, isn't ready for the majors) and the only way we can win this year is to acquire a proven winner see: Livan Hernandez, Freddy Garcia, etc. This much is clear: The Tribe will be leaving Chicago a game behind the Sox. Rauch will get hammered tomorrow by hot Cleveland hitting. The Sox and Kenny Williams will say, "we're looking, just nothing there" for starting pitching. And the Sox will be 5 games out of first place by the end of the second Cubs series in a little over a week. Mark my words!!!.....this is the beginning of the end for our team.

THANKS AGAIN REINSDORF, YOU CHEAP ASS!! THANKS AGAIN WILLIAMS, YOU PUPPET!! ENJOY THE SOUTH SIDE, OZZIE. THIS IS THE **** WE PUT UP WITH EVERY SINGLE YEAR. WHAT A DISGRACE!!

I feel a lot of the same things you do and if there was a gun to my head I would bet on the sox finishing 3rd with this current team. Its not just the fifth starter anymore. Its all of them. However the season is still not over. I am really dreading this cubs series though and its usually the one I look most forward to. The way the sox are just not competing is getting old. Buerhle needs to get his **** together

FarWestChicago
06-23-2004, 09:33 PM
not sure what any of this has to do with rowand ... but.....:dunno:You got me. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/confused.gif

OurBitchinMinny
06-23-2004, 09:33 PM
truthfully i think you can point out that every hitter in the game has done that. fact is tho some of rowands hits have been VERY timely.

maybe you're thinking of konerko?
Id take konerko over rowand any day in a clutch situation, although Id rather have maggs than either one of them

comiskey
06-23-2004, 09:39 PM
Well, Daver, you're right. I guess we'll see what happens in the next 1 1/2 weeks. After that, maybe you'll be p.o.'d too? You can see it coming with this team.

idseer
06-23-2004, 09:40 PM
Id take konerko over rowand any day in a clutch situation, although Id rather have maggs than either one of them
i dunno. when paul goes cold he gets truly frigid.
rowand has been very steady the way he's been used. i'm liking him more and more.

minastirith67
06-24-2004, 12:04 AM
As much as I like his recent hitting, his fielding tonight was terrible. I was sitting in right-center field and he misjudged a line drive and couldn't throw to the cut-off guy, therefore letting in a run and allowing the runner to advance.

Rowand still wasn't as bad as Coco Crisp and Lawton, who managed to collide for an error. Dumbasses.

maurice
06-24-2004, 12:04 PM
WSI's very own Phil Rogers wrote a very flattering piece on Rowand and picked him over Patterson for the all city team.

Gumshoe
06-24-2004, 01:29 PM
The guy produces like we said he would.

Randar et al can suck it and keep making excuses. Be men and admit you were way off

Gumshoe

ps- of course - Phil knows what he's talking about

jabrch
06-24-2004, 02:27 PM
He took a nice route on Gerut's ball all the way to the wall.

jabrch
06-24-2004, 02:29 PM
Hey - a new Dumb Post of the Week!


Well, after the grand slam by Cleveland tonight, another great bullpen outing was witnessed. Iit was a matter of time, but our starting pitching can't go 7.0 to 8.0 innings every single night. In comes the bullpen.....Mike Jackson.....Cliff Politte....Neal Cotts.....Jon Adkins......DOES THIS BULLPEN SCARE ANYONE??!!

You can all thank Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams for another season of fading divisional title hopes. You could see the slide coming the second the Sox finished their West Coast trip (flop) again a couple of weeks ago. Again, because everyone thought Koch could get the job done. He SUCKS!! If not for a game saving 2-run homer by Valentin last evening, the Sox would be tied with the Tribe for second place. This isn't Cleveland of 6 or 7 years ago.....this is a rebuilding squad that has no right to be competing with the White Sox for a division crown. But, here they are. Thanks to horrific daily outings by the Sox bullpen, and tomorrow's pending loss via the 5th starter role (again!!!!!) the Sox will lose again - thanks again to the mangerial brass for being stubborn and cheap not to get a 5th pitcher. Thanks guys. What has it been, weeks? Weeks since we talked about getting a 5th starter and nothing to show for it. How many games do we need to fall back of Minnesota to realize that our farm system pitching just sucks (or at least, isn't ready for the majors) and the only way we can win this year is to acquire a proven winner see: Livan Hernandez, Freddy Garcia, etc. This much is clear: The Tribe will be leaving Chicago a game behind the Sox. Rauch will get hammered tomorrow by hot Cleveland hitting. The Sox and Kenny Williams will say, "we're looking, just nothing there" for starting pitching. And the Sox will be 5 games out of first place by the end of the second Cubs series in a little over a week. Mark my words!!!.....this is the beginning of the end for our team.

THANKS AGAIN REINSDORF, YOU CHEAP ASS!! THANKS AGAIN WILLIAMS, YOU PUPPET!! ENJOY THE SOUTH SIDE, OZZIE. THIS IS THE **** WE PUT UP WITH EVERY SINGLE YEAR. WHAT A DISGRACE!!

maurice
06-25-2004, 03:20 PM
:tomatoaward



A Rowand thread goes over 100? I'm shocked.