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View Full Version : KW needs to be fired!


habibharu
06-21-2004, 01:06 PM
what the hell is this guy doin?! doesnt he realize by now that we need another SP outside of the organization?!! *** is he thinking? not only is he screwing with these young SP by having them come up and get rocked, we are losing every time they pitch. that is unacceptable. im not saying that he has to go out and get garcia, zito, or sheets right now, but at least get us a chuck finley, rick helling, paul abbot, somebody like that! and where the hell is our minor league SP talent? our farm system to me, looks like complete crap!! and im tired of garlands mental lapses! we'll be liucky to split with the tribe:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

DaveIsHere
06-21-2004, 01:07 PM
What do we know, another Bash KW thread...give it up people, the team, not KW, has sucked in the past week

Baby Fisk
06-21-2004, 01:08 PM
Jesus Murphy! Another "Kenny Must Go" Thread?! Give it a rest.:bs:

Flight #24
06-21-2004, 01:11 PM
what the hell is this guy doin?! doesnt he realize by now that we need another SP outside of the organization?!! *** is he thinking? not only is he screwing with these young SP by having them come up and get rocked, we are losing every time they pitch. that is unacceptable. im not saying that he has to go out and get garcia, zito, or sheets right now, but at least get us a chuck finley, rick helling, paul abbot, somebody like that! and where the hell is our minor league SP talent? our farm system to me, looks like complete crap!! and im tired of garlands mental lapses! we'll be liucky to split with the tribe:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

Yeah, because Chuck "out of baseball" Finley, Paul "whiplash" Abbot are the answers. Even the pitching-challenged Twins let Helling go..mean anything?

I'm sure KW's just sitting on his hands, yeah - that's what's going on.....:threadsucks

dpbyron
06-21-2004, 01:11 PM
:threadsucks

OMG enough... :angry: :angry:

habibharu
06-21-2004, 01:12 PM
dont tell me that you wouldnt rather have a veteran like abbot instead of munoz or rauch. without a legitimate 5th starter, this time isnt winning anything

Randar68
06-21-2004, 01:14 PM
dont tell me that you wouldnt rather have a veteran like abbot instead of munoz or rauch. without a legitimate 5th starter, this time isnt winning anything
shut up.

SOXSINCE'70
06-21-2004, 01:17 PM
KW's the messenger.This mess clearly belongs to ownership.:gulp: :gulp:

SEALgep
06-21-2004, 01:19 PM
dont tell me that you wouldnt rather have a veteran like abbot instead of munoz or rauch. without a legitimate 5th starter, this time isnt winning anythingAbbot went to the Phillies because that's where he wanted to go. As far as Munoz, I was excited to give him a shot. It's unfortunate that curve ball didn't curve, since that is his out pitch and best pitch. KW could hardly foresee that happening. Paying Abbot would have been a temporary solution and the Phillies assured him that wouldn't be the situation with them. We need a legit starter and it's no secret. KW is on it, what wuld you have him do? He needs a willing partner and it's no secret of our situation. Clubs are more than likely asking for way too much until the deadline approaches.

beckett21
06-21-2004, 01:19 PM
what the hell is this guy doin?! doesnt he realize by now that we need another SP outside of the organization?!! *** is he thinking? not only is he screwing with these young SP by having them come up and get rocked, we are losing every time they pitch. that is unacceptable. im not saying that he has to go out and get garcia, zito, or sheets right now, but at least get us a chuck finley, rick helling, paul abbot, somebody like that! and where the hell is our minor league SP talent? our farm system to me, looks like complete crap!! and im tired of garlands mental lapses! we'll be liucky to split with the tribe:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:
:bs: :nuts: :kukoo:

:threadsucks

WinningUgly!
06-21-2004, 01:31 PM
what the hell is this guy doin?! doesnt he realize by now that we need another SP outside of the organization?!! *** is he thinking? not only is he screwing with these young SP by having them come up and get rocked, we are losing every time they pitch. that is unacceptable. im not saying that he has to go out and get garcia, zito, or sheets right now, but at least get us a chuck finley, rick helling, paul abbot, somebody like that! and where the hell is our minor league SP talent? our farm system to me, looks like complete crap!! and im tired of garlands mental lapses! we'll be liucky to split with the tribe:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:
The "This Thread Sucks" Guy isn't enough for this one.

FarWestChicago
06-21-2004, 01:41 PM
The "This Thread Sucks" Guy isn't enough for this one.Done. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

:threadblows:

beckett21
06-21-2004, 01:44 PM
At least SOMETHING good came out of this thread! :tongue:

delben91
06-21-2004, 02:02 PM
what the hell is this guy doin?! doesnt he realize by now that we need another SP outside of the organization?!! *** is he thinking? not only is he screwing with these young SP by having them come up and get rocked, we are losing every time they pitch. that is unacceptable. im not saying that he has to go out and get garcia, zito, or sheets right now, but at least get us a chuck finley, rick helling, paul abbot, somebody like that! and where the hell is our minor league SP talent? our farm system to me, looks like complete crap!! and im tired of garlands mental lapses! we'll be liucky to split with the tribe:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

Wow...ridiculous...

Hokiesox
06-21-2004, 02:06 PM
Is this the obligatory "our team is having a rough time, so let's pick on everybody, including our friends on the website." thread? I'm with Delben...

Randar68
06-21-2004, 02:09 PM
Is this the obligatory "our team is having a rough time, so let's pick on everybody, including our friends on the website." thread? I'm with Delben...
No, this is the obligatory 3rd grade post of the day.

:chickenlittle

CyYoung5621
06-21-2004, 02:14 PM
I feel dumber after reading this thread.

Blob
06-21-2004, 02:16 PM
:threadblows:

Give it up already...

TornLabrum
06-21-2004, 02:27 PM
Done. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

:threadblows:
Perfect, except Louis could PLAY. Maybe Herb Alpert would be more appropriate.

Baby Fisk
06-21-2004, 02:30 PM
Perfect, except Louis could PLAY. Maybe Herb Alpert would be more appropriate.Agreed, TL. Somebody find a Kenny G. graphic! :cool:

Iguana775
06-21-2004, 02:33 PM
shut up.
LOL...short and to the point.

pinwheels3530
06-21-2004, 02:38 PM
what the hell is this guy doin?! doesnt he realize by now that we need another SP outside of the organization?!! *** is he thinking? not only is he screwing with these young SP by having them come up and get rocked, we are losing every time they pitch. that is unacceptable. im not saying that he has to go out and get garcia, zito, or sheets right now, but at least get us a chuck finley, rick helling, paul abbot, somebody like that! and where the hell is our minor league SP talent? our farm system to me, looks like complete crap!! and im tired of garlands mental lapses! we'll be liucky to split with the tribe:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

AHHHH..........the leader of the JERRY SPRINGER FACTION OF SOX FANS from SOX FEST!!!!!!:redneck :tsk:

jeremyb1
06-21-2004, 02:59 PM
:threadsucks

For once I agree. You can blame KW for failing to giver proper opportunities to any of our young pitchers thus creating the impression none of them can succeed in the fifth starters role but while I have no clue I'd guess Ozzie takes a lot of the blame there. It looks like we may finally be on the right track now that we've recalled Rauch. You can't snap your fingers and produce a top of the rotation starter at no cost.

beckett21
06-21-2004, 03:12 PM
For once I agree.
:o:

Finally a common ground......:)


:supernana:

kittle42
06-21-2004, 03:14 PM
shut up.
POTW!

delben91
06-21-2004, 03:15 PM
Any chance we can lock this sucker up or move it? Doesn't seem that anything productive is going to come of it other than perhaps discovering new tags to display our perceived "quality" of the topic...

Just a thought.

FarWestChicago
06-21-2004, 05:08 PM
Any chance we can lock this sucker up or move it? Doesn't seem that anything productive is going to come of it other than perhaps discovering new tags to display our perceived "quality" of the topic...

Just a thought.I wouldn't want to "over-react" to the thread. It's best to just do nothing I think.

doublem23
06-21-2004, 05:14 PM
I wouldn't want to "over-react" to the thread. It's best to just do nothing I think.
Yeah, we wouldn't dare take our jobs waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too seriously. :rolleyes:

Fridaythe13thJason
06-21-2004, 05:15 PM
Wow, this is the kind of thread you usually find over in my domain in the roadhouse. Yikes.

RedPinStripes
06-21-2004, 05:15 PM
I'm so sick of seeing **** like this. "Fire Kenny! Fire Ozzie! Trade Garland! "

Try finding a good fifth starter in your fantasy baseball league this time of year. If it's not easy in a simple game like that, how easy do you think it is to pull off a good trade in mlb?

And I dont think Garland should be ripped at all for yesterday. Ok, maybe Ozzie could have used Shingo in the 9th, but what happens if the game goes into extra innings? We need a closer for the next week! No off days coming up soon. Garland still has that one inning that gets him in trouble, but come on already! He pitched a perfect game through 5 1/2! Not too shabby. Just remember that his offense couldnt score 3 runs for him either vs. Montreal. Garland has made big strides this year imo.

I cant listen to sports radio or read some of the threads on here because of Sox fans crying before really thinking about the situation. I'd be willing to bet that Ozzie would have pulled Munos and Garland earlier if he had a rested bullpen and they didnt have to play 7 more games before an off day.

Dadawg_77
06-21-2004, 08:30 PM
What do we know, another Bash KW thread...give it up people, the team, not KW, has sucked in the past weekTrue, but Kenny has sucked since taking over. But I do think firing Kenny for lack of a fifth is extreme, but firing Kenny for his overall performance would be nice. I don't think this team is going to win anything with Kenny as its GM.

RKMeibalane
06-21-2004, 09:46 PM
:threadsucks

RedPinStripes
06-21-2004, 11:32 PM
:chunks

StockdaleForVeep
06-22-2004, 12:23 AM
what the hell is this guy doin?! doesnt he realize by now that we need another SP outside of the organization?!! *** is he thinking? not only is he screwing with these young SP by having them come up and get rocked, we are losing every time they pitch. that is unacceptable. im not saying that he has to go out and get garcia, zito, or sheets right now, but at least get us a chuck finley, rick helling, paul abbot, somebody like that! and where the hell is our minor league SP talent? our farm system to me, looks like complete crap!! and im tired of garlands mental lapses! we'll be liucky to split with the tribe:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

Yes, cuz its a well known fact that oakland and millwauke is wantin to deal, hell millwauke is only a few games out, maybe they'll white flag trade now HUH!! How about we trade mags and half our farm team for randy johnson, or maybe pedro martinez since he'll be a free agent!

Maybe jesus christ will ressurect to play SP\3B

:prozac

MRKARNO
06-22-2004, 01:07 AM
:threadsucks

and

:threadblows:

CWSGuy406
06-22-2004, 01:16 AM
habibharu, I can respect a person who has an argument and can back it up, but come on. You've posted your crap and just ran and hid.

I mean, come on...

:?:

habibharu
06-22-2004, 01:32 PM
Yes, cuz its a well known fact that oakland and millwauke is wantin to deal, hell millwauke is only a few games out, maybe they'll white flag trade now HUH!! How about we trade mags and half our farm team for randy johnson, or maybe pedro martinez since he'll be a free agent!

Maybe jesus christ will ressurect to play SP\3B

:prozac hey im not makin this crap up! i heard on the score that zito might be availible and also heard that a high sox official was at the cubs-A's game. and otis has told us that sheets might be availible.

habibharu
06-22-2004, 01:34 PM
True, but Kenny has sucked since taking over. But I do think firing Kenny for lack of a fifth is extreme, but firing Kenny for his overall performance would be nice. I don't think this team is going to win anything with Kenny as its GM. yes exactly, what has kenny done? i realize that he signed loaiza and got uribe, two very good moves. but we are not gonna win with this guy at GM. and dont gimme that crap about ownership tying his hands. look at beane in oakland!

habibharu
06-22-2004, 01:37 PM
Done. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

:threadblows:instead of posting crap like this, why dont you tell me what you disagree with about what i wrote?

Baby Fisk
06-22-2004, 01:44 PM
yes exactly, what has kenny done? i realize that he signed loaiza and got uribe, two very good moves. but we are not gonna win with this guy at GM. and dont gimme that crap about ownership tying his hands. look at beane in oakland!True, Oakland has been in the post-season more often than the Sox of late, but they have lost 6 straight playoff series going back to the 1990 WS. Beane has failed to deliver any post-season success to this team.

Flight #24
06-22-2004, 01:51 PM
instead of posting crap like this, why dont you tell me what you disagree with about what i wrote?How's this:

The team Beane started his run with had Mulder, Zito, Hudson, Giambi, Tejada, Chavez. He had the first 3 cheap, and has been able to maintain around them.

Kenny took over a team that had Frank, Maggs, Lee, and....... The difference in starting pitching between the team KW took over and the A's is the difference between making the playoffs and not.

To say Beane's made the playoffs and Keny'snot assumes taht they started with about the same resources on the field. I haven't seen Billy beane develop any studly young talent the last few years or trade for any. He's filled in with solid, serviceable offensive players. You can do that when you have dominant starting pitching. Kenny has not had that luxury.

Not to mention that your initial claim that KW should e firedbecausehe hasn't gone and gotten a new SP is ludicrous. They aren't exactly growing on trees, and no one's trading any right now. But I guess that's his fault!

FarWestChicago
06-22-2004, 02:04 PM
instead of posting crap like this, why dont you tell me what you disagree with about what i wrote?I didn't post "any crap". They asked me to make a tag of an uploaded image and I did it. You need to settle down. Your depression is making you obnoxious. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/angryfire.gif

jabrch
06-22-2004, 02:09 PM
yes exactly, what has kenny done? i realize that he signed loaiza and got uribe, two very good moves. but we are not gonna win with this guy at GM. and dont gimme that crap about ownership tying his hands. look at beane in oakland!
A) in addition to Loaiza and Uribe, add Marte, Takatsu, Olivo, Harris, etc. to the list

B) Why won't we win with him as GM?

C) Beane has been blessed to have 3 aces and 3 top tier hitters (who were drafted by the scouts whom he fired) that developed into all-stars all in the same general timeframe. He did well to get there. But what has he done in terms of trading for, or signing FAs? Where is the list of players that Beane has brought into Oakland who are better than the players KW has brought to Chicago?

KW has done a decent job trying to build a team, while staying a competitive team. Maybe that's the problem. We have never been bad enough where we could dump players, stockpile TOP draft picks, and develop young talent. (Oakland was LAST in their division 3 of 4 and 5 of 7 years and last in the AL West in the last year before realignment. They had no single season over .500, and in fact had only 2 seasons above 68 wins during that 7 year stretch. )

KW is by no means a great GM. But he is not what is stopping this team from winning.

Randar68
06-22-2004, 02:58 PM
instead of posting crap like this, why dont you tell me what you disagree with about what i wrote?
When you post something that merits a valid response, you'll get one. Post tripe and expect:

:threadsucks

Get over it.

habibharu
06-22-2004, 03:16 PM
How's this:

The team Beane started his run with had Mulder, Zito, Hudson, Giambi, Tejada, Chavez. He had the first 3 cheap, and has been able to maintain around them.

Kenny took over a team that had Frank, Maggs, Lee, and....... The difference in starting pitching between the team KW took over and the A's is the difference between making the playoffs and not.

To say Beane's made the playoffs and Keny'snot assumes taht they started with about the same resources on the field. I haven't seen Billy beane develop any studly young talent the last few years or trade for any. He's filled in with solid, serviceable offensive players. You can do that when you have dominant starting pitching. Kenny has not had that luxury.

Not to mention that your initial claim that KW should e firedbecausehe hasn't gone and gotten a new SP is ludicrous. They aren't exactly growing on trees, and no one's trading any right now. But I guess that's his fault! if you correctly read my original post, i didnt say that KW has to go out and get a stud SP. i just said that he has to go out and get a 5TH STARTER, NOT AN ALLSTAR STARTER. how hard is that. im not sure who is on the waiver wire right now, but there has to be people who have a better ERA than 10!

mcfish
06-22-2004, 03:16 PM
yes exactly, what has kenny done? i realize that he signed loaiza and got uribe, two very good moves. but we are not gonna win with this guy at GM. and dont gimme that crap about ownership tying his hands. look at beane in oakland!
Anyone who could find another GM to take Billy Koch off this team for anything at all is a good GM in my book. As far as I'm concerned the trade was Koch for a minor league infielder and $2 million cash - any money we don't have to spend of Koch is just a hugh bonus at this point.

So in addition to all the other things KW has done - Loaiza, Uribe, Harris, Schoenweis, Marte, Takatsu, Olivo, Perez, etc. - he just made a very good trade just last week. KW will get a pitcher when a pitcher is available. It's not like any of the guys you mentioned have been traded anywhere else - nobody's trading right now.

Frater Perdurabo
06-22-2004, 03:17 PM
I guarantee that if The Sox had Mulder, Hudson and Zito, they would have gone deep in the playoffs each of the past four seasons and KW would look like a genius.

habibharu
06-22-2004, 03:20 PM
Anyone who could find another GM to take Billy Koch off this team for anything at all is a good GM in my book. As far as I'm concerned the trade was Koch for a minor league infielder and $2 million cash - any money we don't have to spend of Koch is just a hugh bonus at this point.

So in addition to all the other things KW has done - Loaiza, Uribe, Harris, Schoenweis, Marte, Takatsu, Olivo, Perez, etc. - he just made a very good trade just last week. KW will get a pitcher when a pitcher is available. It's not like any of the guys you mentioned have been traded anywhere else - nobody's trading right now. yeah well you know what? they dont need to trade. if you look at the twins, they dont have a reliable fifth starter either. they had gresinger, but he failed so they dipped into their system, which unlike ours, has studs, and brought up guerrier, who has been good so far. the scrubs dont have a fifth starter either, but found rusch on the scrap heap. the yanks are outhitting everybody. so why the hell cant KW find a cheap starter?? and by the way, getting perez, scho., and harris is not that big of a deal.

habibharu
06-22-2004, 03:20 PM
I guarantee that if The Sox had Mulder, Hudson and Zito, they would have gone deep in the playoffs each of the past four seasons and KW would look like a genius. yeah well thats cuz KW already had maggs, lee, hurt, and PK here. beane didnt have that luxury.

habibharu
06-22-2004, 03:24 PM
True, Oakland has been in the post-season more often than the Sox of late, but they have lost 6 straight playoff series going back to the 1990 WS. Beane has failed to deliver any post-season success to this team. yeah well i would rather lost 6 straight playoff series, rather than make the playoffs once every 5 or 6 years

Baby Fisk
06-22-2004, 03:27 PM
yeah well i would rather lost 6 straight playoff series, rather than make the playoffs once every 5 or 6 yearsNeither option is the mark of a great GM.

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 03:28 PM
Neither option is the mark of a great GM.
Really?

Randar68
06-22-2004, 03:29 PM
yeah well thats cuz KW already had maggs, lee, hurt, and PK here. beane didnt have that luxury.
No, he ONLY had Chavez, Giambi, Tejada, etc.

Randar68
06-22-2004, 03:31 PM
yeah well you know what? they dont need to trade. if you look at the twins, they dont have a reliable fifth starter either. they had gresinger, but he failed so they dipped into their system, which unlike ours, has studs, and brought up guerrier, who has been good so far. the scrubs dont have a fifth starter either, but found rusch on the scrap heap. the yanks are outhitting everybody. so why the hell cant KW find a cheap starter?? and by the way, getting perez, scho., and harris is not that big of a deal.
Guerrier???? A stud?????

*****!!!!! Now I've heard it all.

:whoflungpoo

Baby Fisk
06-22-2004, 03:32 PM
Really?I don't see a World Series in either option. Maybe my standards are higher...:cool:

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 03:32 PM
Can anyone answer when Billy Beane became the General Manager of the Oakland A's? Anyone?

habibharu
06-22-2004, 03:33 PM
I don't see a World Series in either option. Maybe my standards are higher...:cool: you know what, i will take my chances with beane anyday. look at his offense: durazo, byrnes, dye? come on this guy is amazing.

habibharu
06-22-2004, 03:34 PM
Guerrier???? A stud?????

*****!!!!! Now I've heard it all.

:whoflungpoo i didnt call guerrier a stud. i said that he has been good so far. when i said studs i was referring to their minor league system. (mauer, morneau)

Baby Fisk
06-22-2004, 03:36 PM
you know what, i will take my chances with beane anyday. look at his offense: durazo, byrnes, dye? come on this guy is amazing.Until he wins a WS, he's a losing GM.

beckett21
06-22-2004, 03:36 PM
Can anyone answer when Billy Beane became the General Manager of the Oakland A's? Anyone?
Ask habibharu. He seems to be the new resident Beane expert.

habibharu
06-22-2004, 03:37 PM
Until he wins a WS, he's a losing GM. agreed, but im just saying that i would take him anyday over our guy

delben91
06-22-2004, 03:40 PM
agreed, but im just saying that i would take him anyday over our guy

And I'd venture that about 1/3 or more of the teams in MLB would take our guy over their guy anyday as well. Disapprove of KW or not, he's definitely done some good things. We coud be in a lot worse shape right now.

And let the flaming begin.

Randar68
06-22-2004, 03:40 PM
i didnt call guerrier a stud. i said that he has been good so far. when i said studs i was referring to their minor league system. (mauer, morneau)
You're bitching about pitching. Nice backpedal.

habibharu
06-22-2004, 03:41 PM
And I'd venture that about 1/3 or more of the teams in MLB would take our guy over their guy anyday as well. Disapprove of KW or not, he's definitely done some good things. We coud be in a lot worse shape right now.

And let the flaming begin. 1/3??????!!!!! are you crazy?? maybe 3 or 4 teams would take KW over their guy

Randar68
06-22-2004, 03:45 PM
1/3??????!!!!! are you crazy?? maybe 3 or 4 teams would take KW over their guy
The grass is always greener, and it takes an open mind to look at the big picture objectively....


*chirp*... *chirp*...

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 03:45 PM
1/3??????!!!!! are you crazy?? maybe 3 or 4 teams would take KW over their guy
When did the Clippers become a MLB team?

habibharu
06-22-2004, 03:46 PM
guys i would take over KW: beane, epstein, beinfest, cashman, hendry, ryan, shapiro, schuerholz, jocketty. those are just off the top of my head

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 03:48 PM
The grass is always greener, and it takes an open mind to look at the big picture objectively....


*chirp*... *chirp*...
Ok, how about since Beane took over in 1997, the A's drafted Zito and Mulder. Their winning percentage has been the 5th highest in the Majors over that time span. Since 2000 when the Big Three arrived, they have second highest winning percentage, only trailing the 116 win Mariners by one game.

Kenny's team have been mired in a .500 record.

Randar68
06-22-2004, 03:48 PM
guys i would take over KW: beane, epstein, beinfest, cashman, hendry, ryan, shapiro, schuerholz, jocketty. those are just off the top of my head
Cashman has absolutely NO farm system, and operates at a organizational budget 3 or 4 times what the White Sox do. *****. Jocketty? Their division has been as weak as ours the past 5 or 6 years and *** have they done?

Randar68
06-22-2004, 03:50 PM
Ok, how about since Beane took over in 1997, the A's drafted Zito and Mulder. Their winning percentage has been the 5th highest in the Majors over that time span. Since 2000 when the Big Three arrived, they have second highest winning percentage, only trailing the 116 win Mariners by one game.

Kenny's team have been mired in a .500 record.
And Kenny inherited NO pitching staff. Your point? Beane's scouts were still in place when he drafted those guys before implementing his "system".

habibharu
06-22-2004, 03:50 PM
Ok, how about since Beane took over in 1997, the A's drafted Zito and Mulder. Their winning percentage has been the 5th highest in the Majors over that time span. Since 2000 when the Big Three arrived, they have second highest winning percentage, only trailing the 116 win Mariners by one game.

Kenny's team have been mired in a .500 record. beane also got harden, who is gonna be really good. do you see that kind of future for our team? we got no SP whatsoever! buehrle, maybe loaiza, then what? garland? diaz? rauch?grili? munoz? those guys havent done jack!

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 03:51 PM
And Kenny inherited NO pitching staff. Your point? Beane's scouts were still in place when he drafted those guys before implementing his "system".
Yeah, he also had to overrule his trusty scouts to take Zito.

habibharu
06-22-2004, 03:51 PM
Cashman has absolutely NO farm system, and operates at a organizational budget 3 or 4 times what the White Sox do. *****. Jocketty? Their division has been as weak as ours the past 5 or 6 years and *** have they done? no way their divison has been has weak has ours! we got the freaking tigers, royals, and indians, who have all sucked for the better part of the last 5 years!

Randar68
06-22-2004, 03:51 PM
beane also got harden, who is gonna be really good. do you see that kind of future for our team? we got no SP whatsoever! buehrle, maybe loaiza, then what? garland? diaz? rauch?grili? munoz? those guys havent done jack!
:nuts:

You and DaDawg have fun doign the doe-see-doe. Been there done that. Horse is dead.

Flight #24
06-22-2004, 03:52 PM
guys i would take over KW: beane, epstein, beinfest, cashman, hendry, ryan, shapiro, schuerholz, jocketty. those are just off the top of my head
Most of these guys have 1 big advantage that KW did not: high draft pick ace pitchers. Then there's cashman, who has the bottomless wallet. Or epstein, who took a very good team and hasn't gotten them any farther than they were before.

Seriously - what "great" moves has Billy Beane made in the past 4 years? How great would those moves have been if he didn't already have the big 3? Answer: not great at all.

Start KW with the big 3 and the Sox are looking at a few years in the playoffs, and based on his end-of-rotation pitching and young offensive talent acquisitions, I'd bet they have more success than the A's.

Start Billy Beane with the pitchers KW had in 2001 and I bet he's contending with the Tigers for worst record.

The analogy here is MJ & Jerry Krause. Krause didn't draft MJ, he inherited him. However, what he has done that Beane has not is translate that into championships by adding the right pieces around him.

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 03:53 PM
And Kenny inherited NO pitching staff. Your point? Beane's scouts were still in place when he drafted those guys before implementing his "system".
He did inherit Mark Buehrle and Jon Garland.

habibharu
06-22-2004, 03:53 PM
Most of these guys have 1 big advantage that KW did not: high draft pick ace pitchers. Then there's cashman, who has the bottomless wallet. Or epstein, who took a very good team and hasn't gotten them any farther than they were before.

Seriously - what "great" moves has Billy Beane made in the past 4 years? How great would those moves have been if he didn't already have the big 3? Answer: not great at all.

Start KW with the big 3 and the Sox are looking at a few years in the playoffs, and based on his end-of-rotation pitching and young offensive talent acquisitions, I'd bet they have more success than the A's.

Start Billy Beane with the pitchers KW had in 2001 and I bet he's contending with the Tigers for worst record.

The analogy here is MJ & Jerry Krause. Krause didn't draft MJ, he inherited him. However, what he has done that Beane has not is translate that into championships by adding the right pieces around him. beane got harden, traded for foulke, got chavez signed, got crosby, and got redman

delben91
06-22-2004, 03:54 PM
beane also got harden, who is gonna be really good. do you see that kind of future for our team? we got no SP whatsoever! buehrle, maybe loaiza, then what? garland? diaz? rauch?grili? munoz? those guys havent done jack!

Garland won't be light's out great, but I don't have any doubts he'll be a serviceable #3 guy. I don't think anyone was really counting on much from Grilli, I know I wasn't. Rauch still has potential, though his window is probably starting to close more rapidly in KW's mind after that last incident, a solid start Thursday would help his standing immensely.

As for Diaz and Munoz, they have 3 major league starts between them. Granted they weren't too impressive, but how about we give them a bit more time before saying they'll never be anything. The ability is there, how about more than one shot per prospect. Are we only going to give Reed 2 ABs when he comes up and if he doesn't hit 2 HRs label him a failure?

habibharu
06-22-2004, 03:54 PM
beane got harden, traded for foulke, got chavez signed, got crosby, and got redman epstein got schilling, no reason why we couldnt have done that

Randar68
06-22-2004, 03:55 PM
beane got harden, traded for foulke, got chavez signed, got crosby, and got redmanOlivo, Uribe, Loaiza, Schoenweiss, Harris, Marte, Shingo, Tom Gordon, etc etc.



:worship:Beane

habibharu
06-22-2004, 03:56 PM
Garland won't be light's out great, but I don't have any doubts he'll be a serviceable #3 guy. I don't think anyone was really counting on much from Grilli, I know I wasn't. Rauch still has potential, though his window is probably starting to close more rapidly in KW's mind after that last incident, a solid start Thursday would help his standing immensely.

As for Diaz and Munoz, they have 3 major league starts between them. Granted they weren't too impressive, but how about we give them a bit more time before saying they'll never be anything. The ability is there, how about more than one shot per prospect. Are we only going to give Reed 2 ABs when he comes up and if he doesn't hit 2 HRs label him a failure? dont even start with the hitters man. Moron KW gives borchard a 5M signing bonus and what the hell has he done? you dont make dumbass moves like that, especially with our financial situation

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 03:56 PM
:nuts:

You and DaDawg have fun doign the doe-see-doe. Been there done that. Horse is dead.
LOL, your Bull **** has been refuted and you realize you can't win so you retreat. Trying to say Kenny is better or just as good as Beane is a losing battle any day. Can't believe you still try to fight it.

Randar68
06-22-2004, 03:56 PM
epstein got schilling, no reason why we couldnt have done that
Yeah, $$$$ had nothing to do with it. Or the fact that Schilling would veto any trade to the Sox because of his history with JR.


Don't let reality get in the way of your fantasies, though.

Randar68
06-22-2004, 03:57 PM
dont even start with the hitters man. Moron KW gives borchard a 5M signing bonus and what the hell has he done? you dont make dumbass moves like that, especially with our financial situation
Isn't 4th grade computer class over for the day?

habibharu
06-22-2004, 03:57 PM
Olivo, Uribe, Loaiza, Schoenweiss, Harris, Marte, Shingo, Tom Gordon, etc etc.



:worship:Beane scho. is not that great anymore. harris is starting to struggle. flash was good, but where the hell is he now? KW couldnt get him signed! we could have used him and sullivan big time this year.

Randar68
06-22-2004, 03:57 PM
LOL, your Bull **** has been refuted and you realize you can't win so you retreat. Trying to say Kenny is better or just as good as Beane is a losing battle any day. Can't believe you still try to fight it.
Yeah, because we need to have another 30 pages of rehashing the same tired argument. Remind me again...

Randar68
06-22-2004, 03:58 PM
scho. is not that great anymore. harris is starting to struggle. flash was good, but where the hell is he now? KW couldnt get him signed! we could have used him and sullivan big time this year.
KW got 2 draft picks for him. Sullivan's been no better than Politte this year.

habibharu
06-22-2004, 03:58 PM
LOL, your Bull **** has been refuted and you realize you can't win so you retreat. Trying to say Kenny is better or just as good as Beane is a losing battle any day. Can't believe you still try to fight it. i gurantee that if we were in the west with the M's and angels, not only would we have not made the playoffs under KW, we would have probably not gotten more than 85 wins any year.

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 03:59 PM
Olivo, Uribe, Loaiza, Schoenweiss, Harris, Marte, Shingo, Tom Gordon, etc etc.



:worship:Beane

Olivo still hasn't done anything to merit your praise.

Uribe one hot month doesn't make him good. His regression is June is just as bad as his April was good.

Schoe, yeah great pickup a fifth starter. Rather have a pitcher like Redman.

Marte, Gordon, Shingo were great pickups. Maybe Kenny should stick to the pen.

Harris turning out to be a good pickup.

E Lo another great pickup.

Flight #24
06-22-2004, 03:59 PM
beane also got harden, who is gonna be really good. do you see that kind of future for our team? we got no SP whatsoever! buehrle, maybe loaiza, then what? garland? diaz? rauch?grili? munoz? those guys havent done jack!
here's 2 pitchers:

A - 5-4 / 1.33WHIP / 4.67ERA / 8 of 14 quality starts

B - 3-5 / 1.48WHIP / 4.54 ERA / 7 of 13 quality starts

One's Rich Harden, the other Jon Garland. Pretty similar, no? But one's "gonna be really good" and the other's "no SP whatsoever".

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 04:00 PM
Yeah, because we need to have another 30 pages of rehashing the same tired argument. Remind me again...
We don't still doesn't mean your argument is any better.

delben91
06-22-2004, 04:01 PM
dont even start with the hitters man. Moron KW gives borchard a 5M signing bonus and what the hell has he done? you dont make dumbass moves like that, especially with our financial situation

Oh, right, how foolish of me...

Later.

mcfish
06-22-2004, 04:01 PM
yeah well you know what? they dont need to trade. if you look at the twins, they dont have a reliable fifth starter either. they had gresinger, but he failed so they dipped into their system, which unlike ours, has studs, and brought up guerrier, who has been good so far. the scrubs dont have a fifth starter either, but found rusch on the scrap heap. the yanks are outhitting everybody. so why the hell cant KW find a cheap starter?? and by the way, getting perez, scho., and harris is not that big of a deal.
By "nobody's trading," I didn't mean our division rivals, I meant the teams that have the players the White Sox could get. Seattle is dragging their heals trying to a) see if they can go on a winning streak or b) get as much as possible in a bidding war. Milwaukee is only 4.5 back and I don't think they'll trade Sheets anyway. Cleveland's 4 back and looking to the future, so CC isn't going anywhere soon. Who else is there. I wouldn't want the Sox to go for a crappy 5th starter from a crappy team - what good would that do? We need a good pitcher, not someone mediocre to fill in for the time being.

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 04:01 PM
here's 2 pitchers:

A - 5-4 / 1.33WHIP / 4.67ERA / 8 of 14 quality starts

B - 3-5 / 1.48WHIP / 4.54 ERA / 7 of 13 quality starts

One's Rich Harden, the other Jon Garland. Pretty similar, no? But one's "gonna be really good" and the other's "no SP whatsoever".
But Garland can't be good since Kenny inherited NO pitchers.

habibharu
06-22-2004, 04:02 PM
KW got 2 draft picks for him. Sullivan's been no better than Politte this year. what are you talking about??!! maybe you should check the facts before you post: sullivan had a 3.6 ERA in about 65 IP last years. pollitte has a what, 6 ERA this year? and he was just as bad last year? why the hell would you sign this guy?

Flight #24
06-22-2004, 04:03 PM
beane got harden, traded for foulke, got chavez signed, got crosby, and got redman
Resigning Chavez doesn't count for much. That's basd purely on how mch $$$ you have to spend.

Harden, Foulke do the A's no good if they don't already have the big 3

Redman.....are you serious? He of the 1.49WHIP and .294BAA?

habibharu
06-22-2004, 04:04 PM
here's 2 pitchers:

A - 5-4 / 1.33WHIP / 4.67ERA / 8 of 14 quality starts

B - 3-5 / 1.48WHIP / 4.54 ERA / 7 of 13 quality starts

One's Rich Harden, the other Jon Garland. Pretty similar, no? But one's "gonna be really good" and the other's "no SP whatsoever". the difference is that one has only been in the majors for what, 4 months? jon has been in the majors for over 3 years

Flight #24
06-22-2004, 04:05 PM
But Garland can't be good since Kenny inherited NO pitchers.
If you're trying to compare Jon Garland to Mulder, Hudson, Zito.......I want some of whatever you're smokin.

habibharu
06-22-2004, 04:05 PM
Resigning Chavez doesn't count for much. That's basd purely on how mch $$$ you have to spend.

Harden, Foulke do the A's no good if they don't already have the big 3

Redman.....are you serious? He of the 1.49WHIP and .294BAA? dont tell me the A's have more $$ than us. there is no way! KW is just wasting our money on guys like jose and lee

Flight #24
06-22-2004, 04:05 PM
the difference is that one has only been in the majors for what, 4 months? jon has been in the majors for over 3 yearsOne also came up as a 22-some year old, the other as a 19 or 20 year old. And Garland had Tinkerbell Jerry Manuel to deal with as well.

habibharu
06-22-2004, 04:06 PM
If you're trying to compare Jon Garland to Mulder, Hudson, Zito.......I want some of whatever you're smokin.we're just comparing jon to the guy you brought up, harden.

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 04:07 PM
:tomatoaward nm

habibharu
06-22-2004, 04:07 PM
Resigning Chavez doesn't count for much. That's basd purely on how mch $$$ you have to spend.

Harden, Foulke do the A's no good if they don't already have the big 3

Redman.....are you serious? He of the 1.49WHIP and .294BAA?id take redman over scho., garland, and whoever our 5th starter is, if KW ever gets one!

pearso66
06-22-2004, 04:08 PM
I can't believe this argument is going on again. KW doesnt have Mauer as the Twins do, because they havnt had a top 5 pick in the past however many years. They've always been a competitive team. They can't go out and get any of the Big 3's of this world, or Priors or Mauers, because they are always too good to get such a high pick. I also can't believe you want just any pitcher. We have guys that have under 10 ERA's too, IIRC Rauch is under 10, Diaz is under 10. I don't want him to make a move for just any iptcher. I'd rather wait a little while and get a good pitcher. What's the point of picking up someone who is just as good as what we already have?

Flight #24
06-22-2004, 04:09 PM
dont tell me the A's have more $$ than us. there is no way! KW is just wasting our money on guys like jose and lee
Huh? Are you trying to say that we could have gotten Chavez? Don't bogart that stuff man!

Billy Bane gets no credit for resigning Chavez because that does not take any evaluation ability, just a checkbook.

Flight #24
06-22-2004, 04:11 PM
we're just comparing jon to the guy you brought up, harden.let me reiterate:
Billy Beane begins use of his "system" with Mulder, Zito, Hudson already in place.

Kenny Williams begins use of his "system" with......Garland? Buehrle?

If you don't see the vast disparity in starting points, there's no point in continuing this discussion.

It's one thing to add some offense and relief pitching and remain highly competitive when you have great starting pitching as a base.

It's a whole other level of difficulty to do it when you do not.

How hard is that to understand?

habibharu
06-22-2004, 04:12 PM
I can't believe this argument is going on again. KW doesnt have Mauer as the Twins do, because they havnt had a top 5 pick in the past however many years. They've always been a competitive team. They can't go out and get any of the Big 3's of this world, or Priors or Mauers, because they are always too good to get such a high pick. I also can't believe you want just any pitcher. We have guys that have under 10 ERA's too, IIRC Rauch is under 10, Diaz is under 10. I don't want him to make a move for just any iptcher. I'd rather wait a little while and get a good pitcher. What's the point of picking up someone who is just as good as what we already have? what are you talkin about? rauchs ERA is 11, diaz is 12 and munoz's is 33!!! yeah im sure that paul abbot or rick helling could never do better than that!

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 04:13 PM
let me reiterate:
Billy Beane begins use of his "system" with Mulder, Zito, Hudson already in place.

Kenny Williams begins use of his "system" with......Garland? Buehrle?

If you don't see the vast disparity in starting points, there's no point in continuing this discussion.
Ummm that is incorrect. Mulder and Zito were drafted after Beane took over. Beane did over rule his scouts to take Zito. Plus they were all brought up in the system Beane put in place.

habibharu
06-22-2004, 04:14 PM
Huh? Are you trying to say that we could have gotten Chavez? Don't bogart that stuff man!

Billy Bane gets no credit for resigning Chavez because that does not take any evaluation ability, just a checkbook. actually it does take evaluation ability, since he could have signed tejada or giambi but chose to sign chavez, because he knew that he had viable replacements for those guys. KW could have signed maggs, but instead he signed lee and jose! and no, im not saying that we could have gotten chavez

habibharu
06-22-2004, 04:15 PM
let me reiterate:
Billy Beane begins use of his "system" with Mulder, Zito, Hudson already in place.

Kenny Williams begins use of his "system" with......Garland? Buehrle?

If you don't see the vast disparity in starting points, there's no point in continuing this discussion.

It's one thing to add some offense and relief pitching and remain highly competitive when you have great starting pitching as a base.

It's a whole other level of difficulty to do it when you do not.

How hard is that to understand? how does getting harden and redman have anything to do with the big 3?

Flight #24
06-22-2004, 04:15 PM
Ummm that is incorrect. Mulder and Zito were drafted after Beane took over. Beane did over rule his scouts to take Zito. Plus they were all brought up in the system Beane put in place.
IIRC, Beane became GM, but did not implement his "moneyball" system until a few years later. Until then he used a more traditional method incorporating scouts as well as some stats. It is in the past 5 years or so that he's relied primarily on Moneyball.

In that time, I have not seen any major improvements in the A's talent level. Their success is due primarily to the players acquired BEFORE he made the change.

Combine that with a number of high draft picks, something that KW has not had the benefit of, and you still have a significant disparity in resource base.

Flight #24
06-22-2004, 04:18 PM
actually it does take evaluation ability, since he could have signed tejada or giambi but chose to sign chavez, because he knew that he had viable replacements for those guys. KW could have signed maggs, but instead he signed lee and jose! and no, im not saying that we could have gotten chavez
Yeah, that Erubiel Durazo and Scott Hatteberg are doing great. How's the fat catcher Jeremy Brown looking these days?

There is no linkage between Konerko, Valentin, and Maggs. Val's contract is up after this year......so that's somehow preventing him from resigning Maggs?

Oh, I guess the problem is that we should be offering Maggs $15 or $17million a year but that money's going to Konerko.

pearso66
06-22-2004, 04:18 PM
what are you talkin about? rauchs ERA is 11, diaz is 12 and munoz's is 33!!! yeah im sure that paul abbot or rick helling could never do better than that!
Ok, sorry, I got the numbers wrong. But Rauch only had 1 start, I guarantee that if he has 5-6 starts under his belt his ERA drops below 10. Diaz has 2 starts, and I make the same Guarantee. Stick them in a regular rotation, with 4 days rest, and they will improve. Paul Abbott must be great pitcher since he was released by TB. I'd rather give our guys a better shot then sign an old guy who wasn't good enough for TB.

Flight #24
06-22-2004, 04:19 PM
how does getting harden and redman have anything to do with the big 3?
Once more, very slowly......


Without the big 3, the acquisitions of Harden and Redman mean nothing. Loaiza+Colon> Harden+Redman. The major difference is that KW didn't ahve Mulder, Hudson, Zito to add his acquisitions to.

habibharu
06-22-2004, 04:19 PM
IIRC, Beane became GM, but did not implement his "moneyball" system until a few years later. Until then he used a more traditional method incorporating scouts as well as some stats. It is in the past 5 years or so that he's relied primarily on Moneyball.

In that time, I have not seen any major improvements in the A's talent level. Their success is due primarily to the players acquired BEFORE he made the change.

Combine that with a number of high draft picks, something that KW has not had the benefit of, and you still have a significant disparity in resource base. fine you can keep thinking that KW is a good GM. im not gonna say anything else. ill revisit this thread in a month, when we are out of it and then tell me what you think of KW

Flight #24
06-22-2004, 04:20 PM
fine you can keep thinking that KW is a good GM. im not gonna say anything else. ill revisit this thread in a month, when we are out of it and then tell me what you think of KWAnd I'm sure when we're still contending, you'll be nowhere near this thread.

For the record: KW is a good, but not great GM. Billy Beane is also good, but not great. And certainly nowhere near the "standard bearer" that he's made out to be.

Actually, I take it back - Billy Beane is great...at creating a reputation for himself and self-promotion.

Randar68
06-22-2004, 04:25 PM
fine you can keep thinking that KW is a good GM. im not gonna say anything else. ill revisit this thread in a month, when we are out of it and then tell me what you think of KW
*****!

:chickenlittle

Classic.

beckett21
06-22-2004, 04:27 PM
fine you can keep thinking that KW is a good GM. im not gonna say anything else. ill revisit this thread in a month, when we are out of it and then tell me what you think of KW
And when the Sox are in First Place you will be driving the bandwagon. :rolleyes:

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 04:35 PM
Yeah, that Erubiel Durazo and Scott Hatteberg are doing great. How's the fat catcher Jeremy Brown looking these days?

There is no linkage between Konerko, Valentin, and Maggs. Val's contract is up after this year......so that's somehow preventing him from resigning Maggs?

Oh, I guess the problem is that we should be offering Maggs $15 or $17million a year but that money's going to Konerko.
Durazo
.325/.397/.529

Hatteberg
.325/.401/.514

I think we agree that Hatteberg and Durazo are doing great this year, the numbers speak for themselves.

mcfish
06-22-2004, 04:36 PM
what are you talkin about? rauchs ERA is 11, diaz is 12 and munoz's is 33!!! yeah im sure that paul abbot or rick helling could never do better than that!Helling's 33, he hasn't pitched this year, and is 1 game under .500 over the last three years. And Paul Abbot, there's a diamond in the rough - a 36 year old who's 1-4 on the year with a 8.02 ERA. Why don't we just bring back Danny Wright instead?

I'd rather see Rauch or Diaz get a more stable opportunity and not pitch on short rest as Diaz had to before I would like to see KW go after a pitcher way past his prime who will do us very little good this year and no good in the future.

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 04:39 PM
IIRC, Beane became GM, but did not implement his "moneyball" system until a few years later. Until then he used a more traditional method incorporating scouts as well as some stats. It is in the past 5 years or so that he's relied primarily on Moneyball.

In that time, I have not seen any major improvements in the A's talent level. Their success is due primarily to the players acquired BEFORE he made the change.

Combine that with a number of high draft picks, something that KW has not had the benefit of, and you still have a significant disparity in resource base.
Not exactly, the system was slowly put into place and elements where there before the "Moneyball" draft. Beane did over rule his scouts to draft Zito based on statistical evidence. BTW, that draft could very well help the A's land Beltran this year.

MRKARNO
06-22-2004, 04:40 PM
fine you can keep thinking that KW is a good GM. im not gonna say anything else. ill revisit this thread in a month, when we are out of it and then tell me what you think of KW
After reading this thread I am convinced that you are incapable of being able to rationalize your opinion because it's an incorrect one.

Randar68
06-22-2004, 04:41 PM
After reading this thread I am convinced that you are incapable of being able to rationalize your opinion because it's an incorrect one.
:roflmao:

well said.

Baby Fisk
06-22-2004, 04:44 PM
The circle jerk should end here... unless the Haters of Kenny want to post another 400 manifestations of their obsession.

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 04:45 PM
The circle jerk should end here... unless the Haters of Kenny want to post another 400 manifestations of their obsession.
Actually its yours guys obsession with defending him.

Baby Fisk
06-22-2004, 04:46 PM
Actually its yours guys obsession with defending him.Who started this thread? Gaa, forget about it. Enjoy the stroking.

beckett21
06-22-2004, 04:50 PM
Who started this thread?
It appears it was the same person who started this one:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=32972

Methinks someone needs to take a chill pill and follow their own advice....or stop swaying in whatever way the prevailing winds are blowing.

But hey BabyFisk, this is an easy way to pad your stats in your quest to become a Church Elder! :redneck

Baby Fisk
06-22-2004, 04:55 PM
But hey BabyFisk, this is an easy way to pad your stats in your quest to become a Church Elder! :redneck
No, I seriously feel it is right and necessary to defend our GM from yahoos who attack him with the kind of visceral hatred that would make Michael Moore blush, and furthermore...

...oh hell, yeah I'm busted. :cool:

beckett21
06-22-2004, 04:59 PM
No, I seriously feel it is right and necessary to defend our GM from yahoos who attack him with the kind of visceral hatred that would make Michael Moore blush, and furthermore...

...oh hell, yeah I'm busted. :cool:
Carry on.....

:cheers:

jabrch
06-22-2004, 05:02 PM
yeah well thats cuz KW already had maggs, lee, hurt, and PK here. beane didnt have that luxury.
Oh really? He had Chavez, Tejada and Giambi - seems like quite a luxury to me.

jabrch
06-22-2004, 05:05 PM
beane also got harden, who is gonna be really good. do you see that kind of future for our team? we got no SP whatsoever! buehrle, maybe loaiza, then what? garland? diaz? rauch?grili? munoz? those guys havent done jack!

Garland hasn't done jack - but Harden is "gonna be really good"?

Do you hear yourself?

Flight #24
06-22-2004, 05:07 PM
Garland hasn't done jack - but Harden is "gonna be really good"?

Do you hear yourself?
Give it up jabrch.....pretty soon your head will start hurting from this brick wall.

jabrch
06-22-2004, 05:07 PM
beane got harden, traded for foulke, got chavez signed, got crosby, and got redman
I'd take Loaiza, Uribe, Harris, Takatsu, etc. etc. etc. over Harden, a trade for Foulke whom he decided wasn't worth keeping at his 2004 cost, resigning ONLY Chavez from all the FAs he has lost so far, and Crosby/Redman.

jabrch
06-22-2004, 05:09 PM
epstein got schilling, no reason why we couldnt have done that
Huh?

1) Schilling won't go anywhere near JR.
2) Schilling was unaffordable given our budget. We'd have lost Magglio in order to get someone of his ilk - and the Magglio trade we had in place never happened.
3) Ownership doesn't sign pitchers to long term deals
etc. etc. etc.

You must not get it. That was just a silly comment.

jabrch
06-22-2004, 05:16 PM
KW could have signed maggs, but instead he signed lee and jose!
huh? He still has the same money to offer Magglio what he feels is fair. If Magglio wants 14mm, he aint getting it here. We have plenty of money next year to do that - but we wont. Cuz KW isnt' going to pay Ordonez some stupid-a$$ amount of money just cuz he asks for it.

beckett21
06-22-2004, 05:16 PM
Huh?

1) Schilling won't go anywhere near JR.
2) Schilling was unaffordable given our budget. We'd have lost Magglio in order to get someone of his ilk - and the Magglio trade we had in place never happened.
3) Ownership doesn't sign pitchers to long term deals
etc. etc. etc.

You must not get it. That was just a silly comment.
You, sir, are on a roll.

I hear Billy's minions approaching..... :duck:

:)

jabrch
06-22-2004, 05:20 PM
I feel dumber for having read and contributed to this thread.

At least my ignore list got one person bigger!

maurice
06-22-2004, 05:40 PM
It's one thing to say that Beane is better than KW. That's a reasonable argument. It's completely ridiculous to say that KW "sucks" or that he's a below-average GM. KW teams have never finished below .500 and never finished in the lower half of the division.

Also, it's extremely disingenuous to call "sample size" with respect to Sox players having good years and then pretend that Durazo (who became a full-time player at age 29 becasue he couldn't beat out Mark Grace) and Hatteberg (.253 / .342 / .383 last season) are locks to continue hitting well.

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 05:44 PM
It's one thing to say that Beane is better than KW. That's a reasonable argument. It's completely ridiculous to say that KW "sucks" or that he's a below-average GM. KW teams have never finished below .500 and never finished in the lower half of the division.

Also, it's extremely disingenuous to call "sample size" with respect to Sox players having good years and then pretend that Durazo and Hatteberg are locks to continue hitting well.
I am not pretending they are, but when one want to sarcastically use an example, one should make sure that example fits the message.

jabrch
06-22-2004, 05:46 PM
It's one thing to say that Beane is better than KW. That's a reasonable argument. It's completely ridiculous to say that KW "sucks" or that he's a below-average GM. KW teams have never finished below .500 and never finished in the lower half of the division.

Also, it's extremely disingenuous to call "sample size" with respect to Sox players having good years and then pretend that Durazo (who became a full-time player at age 29 becasue he couldn't beat out Mark Grace) and Hatteberg (career .267 / .357 / .411 coming into this season) are locks to continue hitting well.
That's Standard Operating Procedure #212 in the FOBB Handbook. Sample size can be used as an advantage when those in the stone age try to use statistics to prove a point. After saying sample size, call them idiots and tell them they don't understand.

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 05:46 PM
You, sir, are on a roll.

I hear Billy's minions approaching..... :duck:

:)
Jabrch, reason means nothing to him.

I jumped in because habibharu was doing a bad job arguing the case and people started to say Kenny is a better GM then Kenny, a laughable suggestion at best.

Dadawg_77
06-22-2004, 05:46 PM
That's Standard Operating Procedure #212 in the FOBB Handbook. Sample size can be used as an advantage when those in the stone age try to use statistics to prove a point. After saying sample size, call them idiots and tell them they don't understand.
Lol, if you only had a clue what the arguement was....

Flight #24
06-22-2004, 05:47 PM
I am not pretending they are, but when one want to sarcastically use an example, one should make sure that example fits the message.
Yeah, that was my bad. I was thinking of Durazo's last year stats. I still dont' think Beane's acquired anyone in the past few years that I'd build an offense around, but that he has a lot of nice complementary parts - kind of like a donut.

That works because he's got the big3. If/when they start leaving, I wouldn't hold out much hope for the A's to maintain their performance.

RedPinStripes
06-22-2004, 06:37 PM
Cashman has absolutely NO farm system, and operates at a organizational budget 3 or 4 times what the White Sox do. *****. Jocketty? Their division has been as weak as ours the past 5 or 6 years and *** have they done?Stienbrenner: Brian you little jerk! Go get me A-Rod! Here's 200 million to take with you. Get Kevin Brown, Giambi, And anyone the Redsox want. Here's more money.

cashman: Ok boss..............




I can do that job!

pearso66
06-22-2004, 07:02 PM
Stienbrenner: Brian you little jerk! Go get me A-Rod! Here's 200 million to take with you. Get Kevin Brown, Giambi, And anyone the Redsox want. Here's more money.

cashman: Ok boss..............




I can do that job!
lol RPS, I was thining the same thing. But in that you can add Epstein and Hendry. As they both basically have whatever money they want to spend. Just not quite as much. Its real easy to be a good GM when you have that kind of money to throw around

CanOfCorn
06-22-2004, 09:00 PM
It appears it was the same person who started this one:


http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=32972

Methinks someone needs to take a chill pill and follow their own advice....or stop swaying in whatever way the prevailing winds are blowing.


If this was posted earlier, this thread could've come to a stop a long time ago.

gosox41
06-23-2004, 01:07 AM
True, Oakland has been in the post-season more often than the Sox of late, but they have lost 6 straight playoff series going back to the 1990 WS. Beane has failed to deliver any post-season success to this team.
So based on that logic the 98 wins they've averaged 4 years in a row and the fact they at least had a chance to go the Series means nothin?


Bob

gosox41
06-23-2004, 01:08 AM
let me reiterate:
Billy Beane begins use of his "system" with Mulder, Zito, Hudson already in place.

Kenny Williams begins use of his "system" with......Garland? Buehrle?

If you don't see the vast disparity in starting points, there's no point in continuing this discussion.

It's one thing to add some offense and relief pitching and remain highly competitive when you have great starting pitching as a base.

It's a whole other level of difficulty to do it when you do not.

How hard is that to understand?
Beane was GM when 2 of their big 3 was drafted.


Bob

gosox41
06-23-2004, 01:11 AM
IIRC, Beane became GM, but did not implement his "moneyball" system until a few years later. Until then he used a more traditional method incorporating scouts as well as some stats. It is in the past 5 years or so that he's relied primarily on Moneyball.

In that time, I have not seen any major improvements in the A's talent level. Their success is due primarily to the players acquired BEFORE he made the change.

Combine that with a number of high draft picks, something that KW has not had the benefit of, and you still have a significant disparity in resource base.
This can go on forever. The fact is Beane drafted 2 of his big 3 starters. Whatever systen was in place developed Hudson, Zito, and Mulder as well as Harden and I also think Blanton will be a good one.

The A's have had set up for years that a player must walk 10% of the time before being promoted to a higher level of minor league ball.

Beane didn't do his whole 'Moneyball' routine until 2002 but he deserves credit for making the playoffs 4 years in a row.


Bob

FarWestChicago
06-23-2004, 01:14 AM
This can go on forever. The fact is Beane drafted 2 of his big 3 starters. Whatever systen was in place developed Hudson, Zito, and Mulder as well as Harden and I also think Blanton will be a good one.

The A's have had set up for years that a player must walk 10% of the time before being promoted to a higher level of minor league ball.

Beane didn't do his whole 'Moneyball' routine until 2002 but he deserves credit for making the playoffs 4 years in a row.


BobWhat I want to know is which poster is over your bed, Beane, Mulder, Hudson or Zito :smokin: ?

I don't know any A's fans that love the A's as much as you. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/mg.gif

pearso66
06-23-2004, 01:15 AM
The biggest question is in what draft position were the Athletics in when they drafted the big 3? If they were near the top, then of course there is a better shot at getting a top notch player. KW has never picked above 15 IIRC. Sure he can find good players, but generally they arent of the caliber of Prior, Mulder, etc.

gosox41
06-23-2004, 01:25 AM
What I want to know is which poster is over your bed, Beane, Mulder, Hudson or Zito :smokin: ?

I don't know any A's fans that love the A's as much as you. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/mg.gif
I acknowledge and respect the job they've done over there. I think it's fascinating how they can consistently beat the system and do so much with so little.




Bob

FarWestChicago
06-23-2004, 01:32 AM
I acknowledge and respect the job they've done over there. I think it's fascinating how they can consistently beat the system and do so much with so little.




BobAhhh, you're no fun. I had you figured for a party kind of guy and it had to be Zito :smokin:

http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/gulp.gif

MarkEdward
06-23-2004, 01:42 AM
The biggest question is in what draft position were the Athletics in when they drafted the big 3? If they were near the top, then of course there is a better shot at getting a top notch player. KW has never picked above 15 IIRC. Sure he can find good players, but generally they arent of the caliber of Prior, Mulder, etc.
Both Barry Zito and Mark Mulder were highly-rated talents going into their respective drafts. Zito was the ninth overall pick in the 1999 draft and Mulder was selected second in the 1998. Tim Hudson was a sixth-round pick in the 1997 draft. Although he had decent numbers at Alabama, scouts were turned off by his lack of stature. Oddly enough, Hudson's probably been the best of the big three (139 ERA+, averages 230 innings per season).

delben91
06-23-2004, 07:54 AM
Though we've digressed a bit into the pros and cons of Billy Beane, here's a little something KW related from today's Tribune.

The Article. (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040622soxbits,1,4461355.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines)

Williams denied published reports that contract talks with Ordonez and his representatives have ended. "The door is not closed," Williams said. "It's not closed on our part and it's not closed on his part."

and...


If what the Sox have been offered in trade talks was better than what they have been using as a fifth starter, Williams said he would make a deal as a "stop-gap" while still pursuing a bigger trade. Williams said money hasn't been an issue in his inability to swing a deal for another starting pitcher

Seems he's at least trying on the Magglio and starting pitcher front. If that counts for anything...

jabrch
06-23-2004, 09:14 AM
The biggest question is in what draft position were the Athletics in when they drafted the big 3? If they were near the top, then of course there is a better shot at getting a top notch player. KW has never picked above 15 IIRC. Sure he can find good players, but generally they arent of the caliber of Prior, Mulder, etc.
Mulder - #2 overall pick
Zito - #9 overall pick
Chavez - #10 overall
Grieve - #2 overall

Hudson was a 6th round pick back in the days before Beane decided he didn't need scouts to select players.

gosox41
06-23-2004, 09:42 AM
Ahhh, you're no fun. I had you figured for a party kind of guy and it had to be Zito :smokin:

http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/gulp.gif
Actually it's Mulder since he's a local guy. But I am looking for Hudson in a swimsuit. :tongue:


Bob

Flight #24
06-23-2004, 10:12 AM
Though we've digressed a bit into the pros and cons of Billy Beane, here's a little something KW related from today's Tribune.

The Article. (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040622soxbits,1,4461355.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines)
And just as interesting a comment from the Southtown:




Williams, who has been searching frantically for a starting pitcher, said more teams seem eager to make a deal.

"Things are heating up. The landscape is certainly starting to change shape," he said. Williams was adamant in pointing out the club is in the position to assume added salary, unlike last year, when the Sox couldn't make a deal without another team taking some salary off their hands.
Maybe we can finally see a temporary cessation of the "JR's too cheap to trade for any REAL players" talk....

Flight #24
06-23-2004, 10:46 AM
Looks like the rumored Garcia to Dodgers is more unlikely (good news for us!).

From that bastion of good journalism, rotoworld:
The Dodgers are still refusing to part with Guillermo Mota, and that may cost them a shot at a hitter or a starting pitcher.
There's little question it would hurt to give up Mota, who could be a dominant closer and is part of the reason the Dodgers always win when leading after six innings. However, the Dodgers are also reluctant to part with the top pitching prospects in their minor league system, and they just aren't gonna get Carlos Beltran or Freddy Garcia for free. Jun. 23 - 9:26 am et
Source: Los Angeles Times (http://www.latimes.com/sports/baseball/mlb/dodgers/la-sp-dodrep23jun23,1,7227672.story?coll=la-headlines-sports-mlb-dodger)

Lip Man 1
06-23-2004, 11:43 AM
Joe Cowley in a story today in the Daily Southtown, talks about the Ordonez contract situation and quotes Williams as saying the door on it has not been closed.

However Cowley also reports that it was Ordonez himself who gave Cowley the information that discussions were over and also told a reporter for the Sun-Times that same thing. Cowley also reports that Ordonez gave him specific reasons why the discussions had ended and why he would be testing the free agent market. Cowley did not print those reasons because Magglio gave them to him 'off the record.'

For what it's worth.

Lip

Flight #24
06-23-2004, 11:50 AM
Joe Cowley in a story today in the Daily Southtown, talks about the Ordonez contract situation and quotes Williams as saying the door on it has not been closed.

However Cowley also reports that it was Ordonez himself who gave Cowley the information that discussions were over and also told a reporter for the Sun-Times that same thing. Cowley also reports that Ordonez gave him specific reasons why the discussions had ended and why he would be testing the free agent market. Cowley did not print those reasons because Magglio gave them to him 'off the record.'

For what it's worth.

Lip
That could mean that Maggs thinks it's highly unlikely because they're far apart, or it could mean Williams is lying. Given history, my guess is it's the former. or he was trying to get Cowley to stop bugging him.

tstrike2000
06-23-2004, 11:52 AM
Maybe KW will actually make a move for another starter if still hovering around 1st place after the all-star break. Who knows, perhaps KW will sit on his hands, perhaps he won't. One can never tell. Cleveland and Detroit are also both much improved this year and along with the Twins, if any of those teams get hot it could not only make for an interesting second half, it might also move KW to get another starter sooner rather than later.

mcfish
06-23-2004, 02:02 PM
Maybe KW will actually make a move for another starter if still hovering around 1st place after the all-star break. Who knows, perhaps KW will sit on his hands, perhaps he won't. One can never tell. Cleveland and Detroit are also both much improved this year and along with the Twins, if any of those teams get hot it could not only make for an interesting second half, it might also move KW to get another starter sooner rather than later.As was said earlier in this thread, Kenny Williams is not sitting on his hands. Kenny is trying to find a fair trade for a quality starter with all of his time and energy. The reason that trade has not been made yet is because it is more than a month away from the trading deadline. Teams that have pitchers we want are not completely convinced they have no shot this year. Also, there are a number of teams looking for pitching, i.e. the Yankees and Dodgers, which means that teams with pitchers to trade are working all sides trying to get more for less. Yes, we could have picked up Paul Abbott or some other old washed up pitcher, but KW is probably thinking he would rather hope for a prospect to succeed than bring in a stopgap until the trade he wants to make is available.

Say it with me, "in any trade you need TWO willing participants." KW is not the one keeping us from making a trade.

tstrike2000
06-26-2004, 10:02 AM
As was said earlier in this thread, Kenny Williams is not sitting on his hands. Kenny is trying to find a fair trade for a quality starter with all of his time and energy. The reason that trade has not been made yet is because it is more than a month away from the trading deadline. Teams that have pitchers we want are not completely convinced they have no shot this year. Also, there are a number of teams looking for pitching, i.e. the Yankees and Dodgers, which means that teams with pitchers to trade are working all sides trying to get more for less. Yes, we could have picked up Paul Abbott or some other old washed up pitcher, but KW is probably thinking he would rather hope for a prospect to succeed than bring in a stopgap until the trade he wants to make is available.

Say it with me, "in any trade you need TWO willing participants." KW is not the one keeping us from making a trade.
Now say it with me, "It's going to take more than a fifth starter for this team to win anything." He can wait to the trading deadline if he wants. For the next two weeks, we have two AAA pitchers starting for us with two other starters with ERA's in the high 4's.

habibharu
06-26-2004, 12:54 PM
As was said earlier in this thread, Kenny Williams is not sitting on his hands. Kenny is trying to find a fair trade for a quality starter with all of his time and energy. The reason that trade has not been made yet is because it is more than a month away from the trading deadline. Teams that have pitchers we want are not completely convinced they have no shot this year. Also, there are a number of teams looking for pitching, i.e. the Yankees and Dodgers, which means that teams with pitchers to trade are working all sides trying to get more for less. Yes, we could have picked up Paul Abbott or some other old washed up pitcher, but KW is probably thinking he would rather hope for a prospect to succeed than bring in a stopgap until the trade he wants to make is available.

Say it with me, "in any trade you need TWO willing participants." KW is not the one keeping us from making a trade. dont ever confuse activity with accomplishment. KW could spend 15 hours a day on his phone, but if he doesnt get anybody, he has failed

SEALgep
06-26-2004, 12:59 PM
dont ever confuse activity with accomplishment. KW could spend 15 hours a day on his phone, but if he doesnt get anybody, he has failedHe can get about anyone if he were willing to pay any price. That is what deserves a firing, not your defintion of failure. There is a lot you are not considering.

habibharu
06-26-2004, 01:38 PM
how can you guys keep thinking that this guy deserves to stay?!! forget about the starters, look at the bullpen he's built!

Flight #24
06-26-2004, 01:40 PM
how can you guys keep thinking that this guy deserves to stay?!! forget about the starters, look at the bullpen he's built!
You mean Cotts, Marte, Shingo? Sure they need some addition, but KW's the reason we have some pretty good performers in there.

habibharu
06-26-2004, 01:41 PM
You mean Cotts, Marte, Shingo? Sure they need some addition, but KW's the reason we have some pretty good performers in there. oh yeah, who wouldnt want cotts in the bullpen, with this 5.5 ERA.

habibharu
06-26-2004, 01:43 PM
You mean Cotts, Marte, Shingo? Sure they need some addition, but KW's the reason we have some pretty good performers in there. did you forget to mention the guys that really matter, the 6th, 7th inning guys, jackson and politte. quite possbile the worst 6, 7 inning tandem in baseball!

WinningUgly!
06-26-2004, 01:46 PM
did you forget to mention the guys that really matter, the 6th, 7th inning guys, jackson and politte. quite possbile the worst 6, 7 inning tandem in baseball!Could you please list the top 10 best 6, 7 inning tandems in baseball?

Paulwny
06-26-2004, 01:49 PM
did you forget to mention the guys that really matter, the 6th, 7th inning guys, jackson and politte. quite possbile the worst 6, 7 inning tandem in baseball!
If KW isn't given the $$ to sign decent players this is what you have to live with. There were plenty of people on this board, at the begging of the season, saying middle relievers were a dime a dozen. We need an owner who'll spend 25 cents.

habibharu
06-26-2004, 01:52 PM
Could you please list the top 10 best 6, 7 inning tandems in baseball? no i cant, but the point was the jackson and politte are terrbile and shouldnt be in the bullpen of a team trying to make the playoffs!

habibharu
06-26-2004, 01:52 PM
If KW isn't given the $$ to sign decent players this is what you have to live with. There were plenty of people on this board, at the begging of the season, saying middle relievers were a dime a dozen. We need an owner who'll spend 25 cents. why couldnt he have resigned sullivan? oh wait thats rightm sullivan makes rivera and foulke money!

Flight #24
06-26-2004, 02:05 PM
oh yeah, who wouldnt want cotts in the bullpen, with this 5.5 ERA.
Allow me to introduce you to the vagaries of bullpen ERAs, which are difficult to gather a lot of info from only a few months into the season.

Eliminate his start, and his bullpen ERA drops to 4.5
Take away one bad outing against Oakland (.1IP, 2ER) and it's a respectable 3.8.

For a rookie, that's decent. And if you watched yesterday's game, he pitched VERY well. He's had a couple of rough outings, but has generally pitched well.

Flight #24
06-26-2004, 02:07 PM
why couldnt he have resigned sullivan? oh wait thats rightm sullivan makes rivera and foulke money!
Not so much to do with the money, more to do with the fact that in September last year, when the games counted most, he had a 5.79ERA.

habibharu
06-26-2004, 02:08 PM
Allow me to introduce you to the vagaries of bullpen ERAs, which are difficult to gather a lot of info from only a few months into the season.

Eliminate his start, and his bullpen ERA drops to 4.5
Take away one bad outing against Oakland (.1IP, 2ER) and it's a respectable 3.8.

For a rookie, that's decent. And if you watched yesterday's game, he pitched VERY well. He's had a couple of rough outings, but has generally pitched well. yeah well you know what, you cant take away those numbers. thats like saying that if you take out all of the games in which buehrle gave up 6 or more runs, his ERA would be 3.

habibharu
06-26-2004, 02:09 PM
Not so much to do with the money, more to do with the fact that in September last year, when the games counted most, he had a 5.79ERA.

yeah but overall, his ERA was in the mid 3's

Flight #24
06-26-2004, 02:09 PM
did you forget to mention the guys that really matter, the 6th, 7th inning guys, jackson and politte. quite possbile the worst 6, 7 inning tandem in baseball!
No - the point was that like most teams, we have some very good relievers, and a couple of holes. I might suggest that we see if and how they're filled before deciding that KW doesn't know what he's doing.

Flight #24
06-26-2004, 02:09 PM
yeah but overall, his ERA was in the mid 3's
Majority of that in the NL. Add .5 to 1 to that.

habibharu
06-26-2004, 02:09 PM
No - the point was that like most teams, we have some very good relievers, and a couple of holes. I might suggest that we see if and how they're filled before deciding that KW doesn't know what he's doing. what "very good relivers do we have"?

Flight #24
06-26-2004, 02:13 PM
yeah well you know what, you cant take away those numbers. thats like saying that if you take out all of the games in which buehrle gave up 6 or more runs, his ERA would be 3.
The point is that a relief pitcher can be very good, and have a couple of bad days. That doesn't make him a bad pitcher.

Also, taking out starts for a reliever is pretty common since the 2 roles are very different and not all guys can do both well.

but hey - don't let any actual reasoning get in the way of your argument.

Flight #24
06-26-2004, 02:15 PM
what "very good relivers do we have"?
Allow me to introduce you to Shingo Takatsu. You may have heard of him. Then there's Damaso Marte, the best lefty reliever in the AL last year, and after a rough start, back on track to be that this year. And Neal Cotts, a rookie who's had a couple of tough outings, but in general been very good.

habibharu
06-26-2004, 02:16 PM
Allow me to introduce you to Shingo Takatsu. You may have heard of him. Then there's Damaso Marte, the best lefty reliever in the AL last year, and after a rough start, back on track to be that this year. And Neal Cotts, a rookie who's had a couple of tough outings, but in general been very good. neal cotts is terrible!! dont tell me that this is the guy you want pitching down the stretch in september!

Flight #24
06-26-2004, 02:18 PM
neal cotts is terrible!! dont tell me that this is the guy you want pitching down the stretch in september!
Wow, I bow down in the face of your superior logic and reasoning.

Dadawg_77
06-26-2004, 02:18 PM
but hey - don't let any actual reasoning get in the way of your argument.
You guys are the ones rationalizing we have a good pen.

habibharu
06-26-2004, 02:19 PM
Wow, I bow down in the face of your superior logic and reasoning. alright you can argue that cotts is decent, now i wanna see your thoughts on jackson and politte. im sure than you could make them look like studs by taking out outings that you dont like from their stats!

SEALgep
06-26-2004, 02:21 PM
how can you guys keep thinking that this guy deserves to stay?!! forget about the starters, look at the bullpen he's built!Could you have done better with the money he had left? He needs help to do his job, otherwise he has to piece together the best he can. Under the circumstances, he took some good calculated risks, and initially it paid off. If KW were given the payroll flexibility he desires, I'm pretty confident we would see one hell of a team.

habibharu
06-26-2004, 02:23 PM
Could you have done better with the money he had left? He needs help to do his job, otherwise he has to piece together the best he can. Under the circumstances, he took some good calculated risks, and initially it paid off. If KW were given the payroll flexibility he desires, I'm pretty confident we would see one hell of a team. yes, i agree that he needs more payroll, but come on you cant tell me that KW couldnt have found better RPs than a guy who's ERA was over 5 last year and another guy who didnt play baseball last year!

MRKARNO
06-26-2004, 02:24 PM
You guys are the ones rationalizing we have a good pen.
We have a good back end of a pen at least. If our starters are able to turn it around and go 6-7 innings like they were, then we'll be in fine shape. Politte has been decent the last month except the debacle in Montral. COtts has a 4.50 ERA as a reliever and is very reliable in high leverage situations. It's going longer than 1 inning where I dont trust him, though he did a fine job of it yesterday. Adkins usually does the job if he's not called into a high leverage situation. Jackson is just garbage. Darensbourg is an unknown commodity. Shingo and Marte are just awesome. If we had one more set-up man, then I think we'd be in decent shape.

Paulwny
06-26-2004, 02:24 PM
Could you have done better with the money he had left? He needs help to do his job, otherwise he has to piece together the best he can. Under the circumstances, he took some good calculated risks, and initially it paid off. If KW were given the payroll flexibility he desires, I'm pretty confident we would see one hell of a team.
Yep, KW can't spend what JR won't give him.

Cubbiesuck13
06-26-2004, 02:25 PM
yes, i agree that he needs more payroll, but come on you cant tell me that KW couldnt have found better RPs than a guy who's ERA was over 5 last year and another guy who didnt play baseball last year!
and what really bugs me is how he went out on a limb and let someone who no one else wanted try out in st last year. e-lo sucks too!!!:whiner:

habibharu
06-26-2004, 02:26 PM
We have a good back end of a pen at least. If our starters are able to turn it around and go 6-7 innings like they were, then we'll be in fine shape. Politte has been decent the last month except the debacle in Montral. COtts has a 4.50 ERA as a reliever and is very reliable in high leverage situations. It's going longer than 1 inning where I dont trust him, though he did a fine job of it yesterday. Adkins usually does the job if he's not called into a high leverage situation. Jackson is just garbage. Darensbourg is an unknown commodity. Shingo and Marte are just awesome. If we had one more set-up man, then I think we'd be in decent shape. you're right our back of the bullpen is solid. but thats where the problem lies. to get to the back of the BP politte and jackson have to shut the opponent down, which is not happening

SEALgep
06-26-2004, 02:26 PM
yes, i agree that he needs more payroll, but come on you cant tell me that KW couldnt have found better RPs than a guy who's ERA was over 5 last year and another guy who didnt play baseball last year!He could have maybe, but they cost money. Jackson, Politte, Adkins, Cotts, and even Shingo this year are making squat. You can get some good pen pitchers, and they are fairly cheap in comparison to other players, but that still adds up as well. I can only hope that next year we'll add an extra $10 mill to the payroll in addition to the money saved on other players.

habibharu
06-26-2004, 02:28 PM
and what really bugs me is how he went out on a limb and let someone who no one else wanted try out in st last year. e-lo sucks too!!!:whiner: hey dont try to spin what im saying! i have never said that ELO was a bad move. if you read through this thread, (which might take you while, especially after looking at your name), you will see that i gave KW props for elo, shingo, marte, and uribe

habibharu
06-26-2004, 02:28 PM
He could have maybe, but they cost money. Jackson, Politte, Adkins, Cotts, and even Shingo this year are making squat. You can get some good pen pitchers, and they are fairly cheap in comparison to other players, but that still adds up as well. I can only hope that next year we'll add an extra $10 mill to the payroll in addition to the money saved on other players. politte is makin 800 grand. i dont think that that is squat.

Dadawg_77
06-26-2004, 02:29 PM
Could you have done better with the money he had left? He needs help to do his job, otherwise he has to piece together the best he can. Under the circumstances, he took some good calculated risks, and initially it paid off. If KW were given the payroll flexibility he desires, I'm pretty confident we would see one hell of a team.
Yes

habibharu
06-26-2004, 02:31 PM
Could you have done better with the money he had left? He needs help to do his job, otherwise he has to piece together the best he can. Under the circumstances, he took some good calculated risks, and initially it paid off. If KW were given the payroll flexibility he desires, I'm pretty confident we would see one hell of a team. i dont care if we doesnt have payroll flexibility. he has to get the job done. if he cant, we have to find someone who can

SEALgep
06-26-2004, 02:31 PM
politte is makin 800 grand. i dont think that that is squat.Shingo is making $750,000 and I included him as well. Besides arbitration players, who is in the realm of last year FA pen guys that you would consider fit for our team and what are they making?

SEALgep
06-26-2004, 02:32 PM
i dont care if we doesnt have payroll flexibility. he has to get the job done. if he cant, we have to find someone who canWell if you can find someone to work miracles like that, there's about every team out there looking to get you to do it for them.

habibharu
06-26-2004, 02:32 PM
Shingo is making $750,000 and I included him as well. Besides arbitration players, who is in the realm of last year FA pen guys that you would consider fit for our team and what are they making? well, honestly, i dont remember who the FA RPs were last year. but if you could find them, i will guarantee that there are guys in there who are better than poliite making about the same money

habibharu
06-26-2004, 02:33 PM
Well if you can find someone to work miracles like that, there's about every team out there looking to get you to do it for them. it doesnt really take a miracle. im sure you have heard of billy beane and terry ryan

Cubbiesuck13
06-26-2004, 02:34 PM
hey dont try to spin what im saying! i have never said that ELO was a bad move. if you read through this thread, (which might take you while, especially after looking at your name), you will see that i gave KW props for elo, shingo, marte, and uribemy name? does it imply i am a slow reader? please explain. the reason it would take me while is because there are a million of these idiotic threads going 8 pages long. so no, i will not go back and read everyones responses when i am reffering to 1 thing that you said.

your stance on kw letting pitchers who have no track record of winning makes me thing you are the slow one. you are infavor of letting e-lo try out last year because he did well but are not infavor of anyone else trying to do the same thing? even after sho pitched like a quality number 3 for 2 months(?). makes for sense to me!:redneck

SEALgep
06-26-2004, 02:35 PM
YesYa but even with your awesome pen Dadawg, you would have your work cut out for yourself acquiring guys on offense to walk in 10 runs a game in order to score runs. :dtroll:

SEALgep
06-26-2004, 02:35 PM
it doesnt really take a miracle. im sure you have heard of billy beane and terry ryanWhat WS were they in?

SEALgep
06-26-2004, 02:36 PM
well, honestly, i dont remember who the FA RPs were last year. but if you could find them, i will guarantee that there are guys in there who are better than poliite making about the same moneyI don't do others dirty work. :tongue:

habibharu
06-26-2004, 02:45 PM
What WS were they in?well they were in something called the playoffs, but us sox fans really wouldnt know about that

habibharu
06-26-2004, 02:45 PM
my name? does it imply i am a slow reader? please explain. the reason it would take me while is because there are a million of these idiotic threads going 8 pages long. so no, i will not go back and read everyones responses when i am reffering to 1 thing that you said.

your stance on kw letting pitchers who have no track record of winning makes me thing you are the slow one. you are infavor of letting e-lo try out last year because he did well but are not infavor of anyone else trying to do the same thing? even after sho pitched like a quality number 3 for 2 months(?). makes for sense to me!:redneck well you must be like 10 or 11 years old with a name like cubbiessuck

Dadawg_77
06-26-2004, 02:46 PM
Ya but even with your awesome pen Dadawg, you would have your work cut out for yourself acquiring guys on offense to walk in 10 runs a game in order to score runs. :dtroll:lol Seal you love affair with Kenny is wide know and blinds you to his faults, If any is a troll it is you. I could sit here and list the names available this off season, but it be pointless since you would never agree Kenny has done any thing wrong. No need for me to enter the temple worshiping Kenny.

I mean, I point out a flaw in Uribe's game, as we see now it is coming back to haunt him. Yet you try to mock those statements, at least jabrch has back off it. But you continuing to beat a dead horse where you were wrong. just makes you and posts a bigger joke then I thought they/you were.

mcfish
06-26-2004, 02:46 PM
fine you can keep thinking that KW is a good GM. im not gonna say anything else. ill revisit this thread in a month, when we are out of it and then tell me what you think of KW
Whatever happened to this statement? It hasn't been a month and the White Sox are not out of it. And I still think KW is a fine GM.

habibharu
06-26-2004, 02:48 PM
Whatever happened to this statement? It hasn't been a month and the White Sox are not out of it. And I still think KW is a fine GM. yeah i had to go back on my words, after what people like randar, flight 24, and sealgep were saying, especially after what has been going on lately

Cubbiesuck13
06-26-2004, 02:48 PM
well they were in something called the playoffs, but us sox fans really wouldnt know about that
nope not if your younger than 4.

well you must be like 10 or 11 years old with a name like cubbiessuck
why? are you not alowed to use such words? or perhaps everyone walking out of a sox win over the cubs is also 'like 10 or 11'

son, you should try working on your reasoning on why KW sucks and needs to be fired before trying to reason a person's age by a SN. :o:

habibharu
06-26-2004, 02:50 PM
nope not if your younger than 4.


why? are you not alowed to use such words? or perhaps everyone walking out of a sox win over the cubs is also 'like 10 or 11'

son, you should try working on your reasoning on why KW sucks and needs to be fired before trying to reason a person's age by a SN. :o: what the hell kind of nickname is cubbiessuck? this is a freakin sox message board. stop worrying about the god damn cubs! no wonder cubs fans say that we care more about a cubs loss than a sox win

Cubbiesuck13
06-26-2004, 02:57 PM
what the hell kind of nickname is cubbiessuck? this is a freakin sox message board. stop worrying about the god damn cubs! no wonder cubs fans say that we care more about a cubs loss than a sox win

cubbiesuck reperesents what most true sox fans as well as cards fans feel which i am also one. so please don't tell me what i can or can't worry about. my name says nothing about hoping the cubs loose before a sox win. the cubs loosing is just wonderfull but seeing how there is no relation to a sox win other than when they play each other your point is non-existant.

Flight #24
06-26-2004, 03:05 PM
it doesnt really take a miracle. im sure you have heard of billy beane and terry ryan
Wow, if only we had a pen like the A's and the great Billy Beane put together. Arthur Rhodes closing...that's what this team misses!

jabrch
06-26-2004, 06:40 PM
Wow, if only we had a pen like the A's and the great Billy Beane put together. Arthur Rhodes closing...that's what this team misses!
That's just an aberration. Sample size is too small. Beane is brilliant. Stop trying to argue otherwise Flight - you don't understand statistics, moneyball, or baseball. It's entirely about some ridiculousass ratios that Beane and Co. make up - not about what tools a player has, or what he does on the field. If you had more megapixels in your calculator, you'd be smart enough to parrott that same crap too.


Stop banging your head into a wall Flight. It won't get you anywhere.

jabrch
06-26-2004, 06:42 PM
Wow, if only we had a pen like the A's and the great Billy Beane put together. Arthur Rhodes closing...that's what this team misses!and by the way, Beane will find that Dotel is a wreck as a closer. He did himself no favors getting Dotel for Wood and Teahen. And his vorp factor divided by the ratio of his ass to armpits should have made that clear to him.

Flight #24
06-26-2004, 09:57 PM
Stop banging your head into a wall Flight. It won't get you anywhere.
IIRC, that's familiar advice, no?:cool:

CWSGuy406
06-26-2004, 10:22 PM
That's Standard Operating Procedure #212 in the FOBB Handbook. Sample size can be used as an advantage when those in the stone age try to use statistics to prove a point. After saying sample size, call them idiots and tell them they don't understand.
Haha - I loved this post and had to make a notable mention of it, lol. :D:

CWSGuy406
06-26-2004, 10:27 PM
dont ever confuse activity with accomplishment. KW could spend 15 hours a day on his phone, but if he doesnt get anybody, he has failed
I thought you weren't going to post in this thread for a month... :rolleyes:

CWSGuy406
06-26-2004, 10:54 PM
Just for thought - let's compare the two bullpens, that of the Oakland Athletics, and that of the Chicago White Sox (in comparison of what the two GMs have both assembled):

I'll use 6 relievers from each team, using IP, ERA, and WHIP (My apologies for not including Inherited Runners Scored, I don't know where to find that stat):

Adkins - 24 IP, 2.63 ERA, 1.46 WHIP
Takatsu -28.1 IP, .95 ERA, .67 WHIP
Marte - 33.1 IP, 2.70 ERA, .99 WHIP
Politte - 25.1 IP, 4.97 ERA, 1.54 WHIP
Jackson - 28.2 IP, 5.65 ERA, 1.43 WHIP
Cotts - 28.1 IP, 5.40 ERA, 1.41 WHIP (Inflated because of the start.)

(Wow, this is taking a lot of time. :smile: )

Dotel - 35.2 IP, 4.00 ERA, 1.21 WHIP
Bradford - 31 IP, 5.23 ERA, 1.34 WHIP (I was really surprised about his high ERA. Cotts would even have a better ERA not including the start...)
Rhodes - 29 IP, 5.28 ERA, 1.83 WHIP (Yuck!)
Rincon - 17.1 IP, 6.23 ERA, 1.90 WHIP
Mecir - 25.1 IP, 5.68 ERA, 1.34 WHIP
(I couldn't find a sixth - I don't want to use Lehr because he's only pitched three innings this year.)


I was really surprised at how sucky Beane's bullpen is. I'm not missing anyone of real importance, am I? Honestly? I don't watch the A's much, am I missing one of their better relievers?

My gosh, habibharu, I know you love Billy Beane, but Williams has, in fact, assembled a better bullpen then him this year. If stats like this can't prove an argument, then I guess we (Kenny Williams backers) should just stop trying.

Understand me here, I don't like every move that Kenny has made, nor do I dislike Beane (I actually like him a lot), but his bullpen blows, plain and simple...

EDIT: Thinking about it now, Oakland is a much more pitcher-friendly than The Cell, too...

2nd EDIT: Dotel's ERA since then has changed, as in his first appearance as an Athletic, he blows the save, giving up four runs in one IP. That is noted above (Except for the WHIP).

But Billy Beane is god, and even though stats show otherwise, the Oakland Athletic bullpen is better than our bullpen, and how dare I show stats against Billy Beane.

pearso66
06-27-2004, 01:34 AM
I find it hilarious that Habibharu has resorted to personal attacks on Cubbiessuck.

CWSGuy406
06-27-2004, 01:42 AM
I find it hilarious that Habibharu has resorted to personal attacks on Cubbiessuck.
Me too. Even DaDawg said he is 'poorly arguing his arguement.'

Dadawg_77
06-27-2004, 12:26 PM
OAKLAND ATHLETICS Park Effect: +2.4%
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pitcher G (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#g) IP (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#ip) R (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#r) ARA (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#ara) APR (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#apr) IRnr/G (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#irnrg) EIRs/G (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#eirsg) IRP (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#eirp) BRS (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#ebrs) RRA (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#raarp) ARP (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#arp)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bradford,C 34 31.0 20 5.65 -3.0 0.50 0.13 -2.5 -2.3 5.98 -4.2
Duchscherer, 21 41.0 16 3.42 6.2 0.67 0.20 -0.3 -2.3 3.28 6.8
Hammond,C 20 27.3 18 5.77 -3.0 0.40 0.19 -0.3 2.1 6.40 -5.0
Harville,C 3 2.7 1 3.28 0.4 0.33 0.06 0.1 0.0 2.59 0.6
Lehr,J 3 3.0 0 0.00 1.6 0.00 0.00 0.0 0.0 0.00 1.6
Mecir,J 30 25.3 17 5.88 -3.1 0.23 0.10 1.5 0.5 5.80 -2.9
Rhodes,A 27 29.0 17 5.13 -1.2 0.19 0.06 0.6 0.2 5.42 -2.1
Rincon,R 25 17.3 12 6.06 -2.5 0.92 0.34 -0.8 -2.0 5.50 -1.4
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS 163 176.7 101 5.01 -4.6 0.46 0.16 5.10 -6.5CHICAGO WHITE SOX Park Effect: +0.3%
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pitcher G (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#g) IP (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#ip) R (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#r) ARA (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#ara) APR (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#apr) IRnr/G (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#irnrg) EIRs/G (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#eirsg) IRP (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#eirp) BRS (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#ebrs) RRA (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#raarp) ARP (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#arp)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adkins,J 17 24.0 8 2.95 4.9 0.24 0.08 0.4 0.7 3.07 4.5
Cotts,N 21 26.0 14 4.77 0.0 0.71 0.27 2.6 -1.2 3.59 3.4
Darensbourg, 2 1.3 0 0.00 0.7 0.00 0.00 0.0 0.0 0.41 0.6
Jackson,M 25 28.7 18 5.56 -2.5 0.60 0.20 -3.2 -0.6 6.60 -5.8
Koch,B 24 23.3 15 5.69 -2.4 0.25 0.09 -1.5 1.0 6.75 -5.1
Marte,D 29 33.0 10 2.68 7.7 0.66 0.23 1.5 -0.2 2.32 9.0
Politte,C 27 24.0 15 5.53 -2.0 0.48 0.11 -1.1 1.3 6.61 -4.9
Takatsu,S 25 27.0 3 0.98 11.4 0.44 0.14 2.2 0.0 0.30 13.4
Wunsch,K 3 2.0 0 0.00 1.1 1.00 0.30 -1.1 0.0 5.60 -0.2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS 173 189.3 83 3.88 18.8 0.50 0.16 4.06 14.9


Team Bullpen Totals (teams ranked by Adjusted Runs Prevented):
Team IP (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#ip) R (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#r) ARA (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#ara) APR (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#apr) RRA (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#raarp) ARP (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#arp)
CHW_____189.3___83___3.88___18.8____4.06___14.9
OAK_____176.7___101__5.01___-4.6____5.10___-6.5
ML______6622.3__3313_4.51___194.7___4.62___111.9
This looks a lot better in the editor then the post. Why does the program take out extra spaces, that is highly annoying.

jabrch
06-27-2004, 12:29 PM
IIRC, that's familiar advice, no?:cool:
yup...glad to pass it back!

jabrch
06-27-2004, 12:33 PM
and by the way, Beane will find that Dotel is a wreck as a closer. He did himself no favors getting Dotel for Wood and Teahen. And his vorp factor divided by the ratio of his ass to armpits should have made that clear to him.

Now I know one game does not make a season (insert stupid tired old sample size arguement here), but Beane just found out what kind of fun he is going to have with Dotel. His line yesterday speaks for itself.

2.2 IP
4 H
2 BB
1HR
1 BS

only the bottom of the order bailed him out of a loss also.

MRKARNO
06-27-2004, 12:34 PM
Hey Habibharu, how did you like Billy Beane's new prized acquisition Octavio Dotel blowing a 4 run lead last night? Dotel has a decent propensity for blowing saves. Billy Beane is clearly an infallible genious

jabrch
06-27-2004, 12:36 PM
Hey Habibharu, how did you like Billy Beane's new prized acquisition Octavio Dotel blowing a 4 run lead last night? Dotel has a decent propensity for blowing saves. Billy Beane is clearly an infallible genious
Karno -

A) Sample size
B) You cant observe things just by looking at a box score, we need a non-traditional statistic for Dotel.
C) It's an aberration (despite the fact that he has 5 BS and has been fairly bad all season)
D) Bad luck for Beane
E) KW is a stupid-head

I think that about covers it. I just saved the FOBB some time.

Dadawg_77
06-27-2004, 12:41 PM
Karno -

A) Sample size
B) You cant observe things just by looking at a box score, we need a non-traditional statistic for Dotel.
C) It's an aberration (despite the fact that he has 5 BS and has been fairly bad all season)
D) Bad luck for Beane
E) KW is a stupid-head

I think that about covers it. I just saved the FOBB some time.LOL, man if you had a clue. You just take snippets of arguments then try to mock them without ever considering the whole argument which was made.

Put it this way, the people who said trading for Koch was a good move defended the trade using traditional stats like saves. Those of us who look at non traditional stats said the move would be bad to a distaster. The people who said Frank was done the last couple of years, where the ones looking at traditional stats. While us looking at the non traditional ones, said Frank was still producing at a high level, just not as high as before and there is a chance his production could go up to his historical levels. You never bring this up when you talk about the superiority of looking at traditional stats. I wonder why?

MRKARNO
06-27-2004, 12:53 PM
Well I know that Beane must not have been looking at this year's stats when he traded for Dotel. Dotel only has an Adjusted Runs Prevented of 2.9. THat's lower than Jon Adkins and Neal Cotts and only about a quarter of former bullpen mate Brad Lidge.

Dadawg_77
06-27-2004, 01:04 PM
Well I know that Beane must not have been looking at this year's stats when he traded for Dotel. Dotel only has an Adjusted Runs Prevented of 2.9. THat's lower than Jon Adkins and Neal Cotts and only about a quarter of former bullpen mate Brad Lidge.I think Beane is hoping that Dotel's year so far is just a blimp and he will return to pitching at the level he did last year and the years before. His components still look good, it just isn't translating so far.

santo=dorf
06-27-2004, 01:11 PM
what the hell kind of nickname is cubbiessuck? this is a freakin sox message board. stop worrying about the god damn cubs! no wonder cubs fans say that we care more about a cubs loss than a sox win

*****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is coming from someone who created this poll Habibharu contradicting himself (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=28723)

:whiner:
That's all you do Habib. Why don't you go root for another team if our GM is so bad?

jabrch
06-27-2004, 01:16 PM
Well I know that Beane must not have been looking at this year's stats when he traded for Dotel. Dotel only has an Adjusted Runs Prevented of 2.9. THat's lower than Jon Adkins and Neal Cotts and only about a quarter of former bullpen mate Brad Lidge.Beane is DESPERATE. He knows the same thing a lot of us have been saying here for a while. The window is quiclky closing on his team. Gone are the bats he had that could carry a team. Replacing Damon, Giambi and Tejada with Kotsay, Crosby and Hatteberg is not gonna do it. Next to go are his pitchers. Over the next two years, Mulder, Hudson and Zito will all be FAs and 2 of 3 will likely be gone. His minor league system is deep, but lacks #1 Grade A Studs like those guys. Beane knows that the window is quickly closing. Since he couldn't afford Smoltz, and since Seattle won't trade Guardado within the division, Beane did, smartly, the only thing he thought he'd be able to do to get anyone with closer makeup. For all he says that closers are made, not born, he went out and gave up two legit prospects for a guy with closer makeup, but not closer results. Seems like desperation to me - huh?

In two years, when Oakland is done, Beane will move on. He will take the money from someone else who buys into his story. Someone will give him big money to come in, fire the scouts, and bring his calculator. The problem is that without extraordinary luck (having 3 stud arms and 3 stud hitters all develop in the same 2-3 year period) he can not repeat the success he had the past 5 years. Having one player or two players succeed is skill. That is the mark of a good GM/personell guy. But having 6+ of them do it all at the same time is remarkable luck. I hope someday our GMs are that lucky.

habibharu
06-27-2004, 02:21 PM
Hey Habibharu, how did you like Billy Beane's new prized acquisition Octavio Dotel blowing a 4 run lead last night? Dotel has a decent propensity for blowing saves. Billy Beane is clearly an infallible genious its just one outing. how many times have we seen botch blow games like that?

habibharu
06-27-2004, 02:24 PM
*****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is coming from someone who created this poll Habibharu contradicting himself (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=28723)

:whiner:
That's all you do Habib. Why don't you go root for another team if our GM is so bad? if you notice the date of the thread, it was posted in january, when pretty much nothing was going on with the sox. it was just a curious question i had. at least my user name isnt based on bashing the cubs. and why the hell would i root for another team, im a sox fan. and FYI, i hope KW suceeds. i hope that at the end of the season i have to eat crow when we are in the playoffs. i would love to say that i was wrong about KW and that he is a good GM. but right now, i just dont feel that way

Flight #24
06-27-2004, 02:29 PM
its just one outing. how many times have we seen botch blow games like that?
Do we really need to go pull up Dotel's stats from this year? Doesn't he have like 5 BS? IIRC, that's pretty similar to Koch. Oh and IIRC, Dotel's signed for a few years, no?

Wow, Beane's got himself one heck of a pen with 2 setup men signed to decent deals.....only neither can finish games.

But hey, they have great "secondary stats".

MarkEdward
06-27-2004, 03:23 PM
Beane is DESPERATE. He knows the same thing a lot of us have been saying here for a while. The window is quiclky closing on his team.
Really? Folks said the same thing when Giambi,Isringhausen, and Damon left after 2001. Since then, the A's have won 240 games. They also said the A's were done when Tejada left this past off-season. Since then, the A's have come up with the third-best record in baseball.

Gone are the bats he had that could carry a team. Replacing Damon, Giambi and Tejada with Kotsay, Crosby and Hatteberg is not gonna do it.
Currently, Scott Hatteberg is the best hitter of all those players you mentioned (.315 EQA, ninth in MLB). Also, you conveniently left out Erubiel Durazo, who currently has a .312 EQA, good for 12th in baseball. Crosby's current EQA is .278. While that's not as good as Tejada, it's above-average for his position, and he's giving the A's this production for about thirteen millions dollars less than Tejada would (in case you haven't been paying attention, the A's have a budget).

Also, you forgot defense in your analysis. Beane believes Kotsay is one of the best defenders in baseball (and the stats would agree). Giambi rarely plays first base, and when he does, it's not very good. Beane considers Hatteberg to be one of the best defensive first baseman in the game (though the stats wouldn't neccessarily agree).

Next to go are his pitchers. Over the next two years, Mulder, Hudson and Zito will all be FAs and 2 of 3 will likely be gone.
Who knows? Maybe Schott will sell the team to an owner willing to put copious amounts of money into the A's, and they'll be able to keep Mulder and Hudson. I think it's wrong to assume that Mulder, Hudson, and Zito will be gone within three years.

His minor league system is deep, but lacks #1 Grade A Studs like those guys.
Except for Joe Blanton and Rich Harden. Also, both Michael Rogers and Jason Windsor look like decent pitchers, though it's obviously too early to tell.

Beane knows that the window is quickly closing.
Really?

Since he couldn't afford Smoltz, and since Seattle won't trade Guardado within the division, Beane did, smartly, the only thing he thought he'd be able to do to get anyone with closer makeup. For all he says that closers are made, not born, he went out and gave up two legit prospects for a guy with closer makeup, but not closer results. Seems like desperation to me - huh?
Mark Teahen is a B-/C+ prospect, at best. Decent OBP, no pop. With Chavez's new contract, there was little to no chance that he'd ever start at third for the A's. Wood has good walk and homer rates, but his K rate leaves something to be desired. He's a decent prospect, but the A's have better pitchers in their system.

Any way one looks at it, Octavio Dotel is a very good pitcher. 125 career ERA+ (196 as a reliever). He's a flyball pitcher, which should be to his advantage in the cavernous Network Associates Coliseum. Though his walk rate is a bit high (3.9), both his K and homer rates are great (13.0 and 1.0, respectively). Though his current ERA is 3.12, his fERA is 3.06, suggesting that he's been a bit unlucky.

In two years, when Oakland is done, Beane will move on. He will take the money from someone else who buys into his story.
Or maybe they'll be impressed with the fact that his teams have won an average of 90+ games per season.

Someone will give him big money to come in, fire the scouts, and bring his calculator. The problem is that without extraordinary luck (having 3 stud arms and 3 stud hitters all develop in the same 2-3 year period) he can not repeat the success he had the past 5 years. Having one player or two players succeed is skill. That is the mark of a good GM/personell guy. But having 6+ of them do it all at the same time is remarkable luck. I hope someday our GMs are that lucky.
So if Brian Anderson, Ryan Sweeney, Kris Honel, Josh Fields, Robert Valido, and Gio Gonzalez become decent MLB players, we'll just chalk it all up to luck. Hell, let's just chalk up every successful personnel decision ever made by every GM to luck. It's just easier that way.

jabrch
06-27-2004, 04:25 PM
So if Brian Anderson, Ryan Sweeney, Kris Honel, Josh Fields, Robert Valido, and Gio Gonzalez become decent MLB players, we'll just chalk it all up to luck. Hell, let's just chalk up every successful personnel decision ever made by every GM to luck. It's just easier that way.

If any one of them is great - that's skill. If two of them are great - that's skill. If ALL 6 of them are great - that's LUCK.

jabrch
06-27-2004, 04:26 PM
Do we really need to go pull up Dotel's stats from this year? Doesn't he have like 5 BS? IIRC, that's pretty similar to Koch. Oh and IIRC, Dotel's signed for a few years, no?

Wow, Beane's got himself one heck of a pen with 2 setup men signed to decent deals.....only neither can finish games.

But hey, they have great "secondary stats".
Flight, don't forget the great Chad Bradford - his ass to ankles ratio is extraordinary!

Flight #24
06-27-2004, 05:14 PM
Really? Folks said the same thing when Giambi,Isringhausen, and Damon left after 2001. Since then, the A's have won 240 games. They also said the A's were done when Tejada left this past off-season. Since then, the A's have come up with the third-best record in baseball. Look back at the primary argument here: He's had excellent success, but it's due primarily to having arguably the top 3-man rotation in baseball. All drafted using a more standard system incorporating traditional scouting and some use of stats rather than the primary focus on stats.



Except for Joe Blanton and Rich Harden. Also, both Michael Rogers and Jason Windsor look like decent pitchers, though it's obviously too early to tell.
2 years ago, the same was said about Jon Rauch. Means little to nothing.

Really?
I believe ESPN has a number of guys (along with other writers) who have said the A's window is closing soon and Beane knows it. Doesn't mean it's true, but it's much more likely that they'll lose 1 or 2 of them than keep them.


Any way one looks at it, Octavio Dotel is a very good pitcher. 125 career ERA+ (196 as a reliever). He's a flyball pitcher, which should be to his advantage in the cavernous Network Associates Coliseum. Though his walk rate is a bit high (3.9), both his K and homer rates are great (13.0 and 1.0, respectively). Though his current ERA is 3.12, his fERA is 3.06, suggesting that he's been a bit unlucky.
Dotel is a very good setup man, but there have been a number of those who just couldn't make the transition to closing (see Rhodes, Arthur). The rest of his pen also sucks, but I suppose they have excellent stats too?

So if Brian Anderson, Ryan Sweeney, Kris Honel, Josh Fields, Robert Valido, and Gio Gonzalez become decent MLB players, we'll just chalk it all up to luck. Hell, let's just chalk up every successful personnel decision ever made by every GM to luck. It's just easier that way.
It's not that he had picks that developed. It's that he not only had them develop at once, but he had 3 stud pitchers develop at once. Check stats of other teams, that's HIGHLY unlikely. 3 stud young (re: cheap) pitchers coming up at once is virtually unheard of. And look at Beane's record since then - he's good, but it's much more along the lines of one decent starter coming up every couple of years (and no studs since the big 3).

I'll say it again: Billy Beane is a good, not great GM. His system is yet to be proven to be able to do anything other than maintain a decent offense to support pre-existing stud pitchers.

MarkEdward
06-27-2004, 07:04 PM
Look back at the primary argument here: He's had excellent success, but it's due primarily to having arguably the top 3-man rotation in baseball. All drafted using a more standard system incorporating traditional scouting and some use of stats rather than the primary focus on stats.
Whether you like to admit it or not, Beane uses both stats and scouting in his analysis of players. The belief that he just uses a calculator is completely false. Three of Beane's former underlings (Paul Depodesta, Theo Epstein, and J.P. Riccardi) have past experience in scouting (Riccardi was a scout for many years before becoming the A's assistant GM under Beane).

Beane took over as GM of the A's after the 1997 season. As a general manager, he drafted both Mark Mulder and Barry Zito. Prior to becoming GM of the A's, Beane was the Director of Player Personell for Oakland. As the DPP, he oversaw the drafting of both Tim Hudson and Eric Chavez. The A's GM during this time, Sandy Alderson, is also considered a stathead and incorporated many sabermetric ideas into his teams.

2 years ago, the same was said about Jon Rauch. Means little to nothing.
Rauch was injured which ended his status as a prospect. Blanton has made it to AAA without experiencing a significant injury. The same can be said for Rich Harden (and he's currently in the majors). Also, as evidenced by the continued health of Zito, Mulder, and Hudson (among others), the A's training staff looks to be one of the best in baseball. As an A's fan, I don't fear for any of their prospects' health.

I believe ESPN has a number of guys (along with other writers) who have said the A's window is closing soon and Beane knows it. Doesn't mean it's true, but it's much more likely that they'll lose 1 or 2 of them than keep them.
I'd really like to see proof of Beane's 'desperation' before we continue arguing about speculations.

Dotel is a very good setup man, but there have been a number of those who just couldn't make the transition to closing (see Rhodes, Arthur).
Dotel's been a closer for 40 innings and we're already writing off his ability to close games?

The rest of his pen also sucks, but I suppose they have excellent stats too?
They've been a bit unlucky. Rhodes HR rate has shot through the roof, but aside from that, everyone else's rate stats are in line with their career totals. Aside from Rhodes, their dERAs are lower than their actual ERAs.


It's not that he had picks that developed. It's that he not only had them develop at once, but he had 3 stud pitchers develop at once.
So he shouldn't receive credit for drafting and developing these players?

Check stats of other teams, that's HIGHLY unlikely.
It was highly unlikely that Esteban Loaiza would post a 155 ERA+ at age 31. It was highly unlikely that Juan Uribe would have a .292 EQA going into July. Does that mean Kenny Williams should not receive credit for these acquisitions?

And look at Beane's record since then - he's good, but it's much more along the lines of one decent starter coming up every couple of years (and no studs since the big 3).
I'm looking at Beane's record since Zito was drafted in 1998- wait, I'll post it here:
'98: 74-88
'99: 87-75
'00: 91-70
'01: 102-60
'02: 103-59
'03: 96-66
'04: 41-32

I don't know about you, but that doesn't look too bad to me.

I'll say it again: Billy Beane is a good, not great GM.
Of the current GM's, who would you consider to be 'great?' Beane's right up there with John Schuerholz, Pat Gillick, and Brian Sabean as baseball's current 'great' GMs.

His system is yet to be proven to be able to do anything other than maintain a decent offense to support pre-existing stud pitchers.
John Schuerholz scout-heavy system is yet to be proven to be able to do anything other than maintain a decent offense to support pre-existing stud pitchers.

Brian Sabean's system is yet to be proven to be able to do anything other than maintain a decent pitching staff to support his pre-existing stud hitter.