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JRIG
06-20-2004, 02:02 PM
Ugh. :(:

Brian26
06-20-2004, 02:03 PM
Unbelievable.:angry:

MRKARNO
06-20-2004, 02:04 PM
It's a long season....

Nard
06-20-2004, 02:05 PM
Pull your starter when he gives up a double in the 9th.

Was there even anyone warming up when the inning started?

I understand having confidence in your starter, but that was ridiculous.

And a final question, would PK have snatched that one?

Oh well. At least there shouldn't be any damage in the standings. The Indians and Twinkies are both ahead. So are the Flubs. :dtroll: :dtroll: :dtroll:

ND_Sox_Fan
06-20-2004, 02:05 PM
It's a long season....
Made even longer when you lose two out of three to the Expos...

RKMeibalane
06-20-2004, 02:05 PM
Somebody needs to tell Darrin Jackson to keep his mouth shut... :angry:

A.T. Money
06-20-2004, 02:05 PM
Nice road trip.....

Way to shoot yourself Jon.

BigEdWalsh
06-20-2004, 02:05 PM
Ugh. :(:
Ya stole my thunder......ugh.
That's all I got to say.

Brian26
06-20-2004, 02:05 PM
Well, tell me if this isn't the story of our season....

14 runs last night wasn't enough to win.

Tonight, 3 runs would have won it, and we couldn't get the job done.

One day the pitching doesnt show up, the next day the hitting is MIA.

Expos win it on their third hit of the night? That's ****ing pathetic.

balboner
06-20-2004, 02:06 PM
Ozzie has become a joke of a manager. He continues to make awful decisions. First, Frank should have never benen in the field for that last inning. He should have been replaced by Konerko after he batted. Also, why didn't he have Willie bunt after Garland's single in the 9th? Also, Timo has been one of our main catalyst lately. Therefore, Gload played and had a terrible game.

ndgt10
06-20-2004, 02:07 PM
A bunch of stupid things went on in that 9th inning.

1)Garland should not have gone out to pitch it. This was the hitter's 4th time around and we all know that Garland doesn't have that "Good" of stuff.

2) 2-0 count on their number 4 hitter and you lay him a fastball down the middle with first base open. ****ing ridiculous.

Brian26
06-20-2004, 02:07 PM
I don't think you can blame Garland on this one at all.

A.T. Money
06-20-2004, 02:07 PM
Ozzie has become a joke of a manager. He continues to make awful decisions. First, Frank should have never benen in the field for that last inning. He should have been replaced by Konerko after he batted. Also, why didn't he have Willie bunt after Garland's single in the 9th? Also, Timo has been one of our main catalyst lately. Therefore, Gload played and had a terrible game.
Why don't you go manage? Obviously you know everything.

RKMeibalane
06-20-2004, 02:07 PM
And for the record... keep Frank at first base. I don't want to see Konerko out there for the remaining National League games.

ND_Sox_Fan
06-20-2004, 02:07 PM
Somebody needs to tell Darrin Jackson to keep his mouth shut... :angry:
I completely agree - I'd rather have a drunk off the street up there. He has no clue about baseball and its traditions. He continually talks about no hitters and perfect games or other streaks.

It is definitely time for a replacement - it is like someone told him to talk more lately, and it has only turned into a bunch of nonsense.

BearSox
06-20-2004, 02:07 PM
Lets get the #$%@ away from national league parks!! :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

kittle42
06-20-2004, 02:07 PM
With the hprrendous schedule we have coming up over the next few weeks (sure the Indians suck - but it's awfully hard to win a 4-game series), it would have been nice (re: expected) to take at least 2 from the worst team in baseball, but I guess that's too much to ask.

A.T. Money
06-20-2004, 02:08 PM
I don't think you can blame Garland on this one at all.
Did you see the 6th inning? Whose fault was that?

mdep524
06-20-2004, 02:08 PM
What a frickin' joke. Who the hell loses two out of three to the EXPOS??? This is just like the 2003 Tigers thing. Minnesota comes in and sweeps the Expos, the Sox drop 2 out of 3.

The Sox scored 14 runs in one game, and nearly had a no-hitter in the next game AND THEY WON NEITHER GAME!!!! :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

How is that possible???

Frankfan4life
06-20-2004, 02:08 PM
Unfortunately, I am beginning to see a familiar pattern here. No consistency, no dominance, just uncertainty.

I can't tell from one game to the next what to expect.

JRIG
06-20-2004, 02:08 PM
Ozzie has become a joke of a manager. He continues to make awful decisions. First, Frank should have never benen in the field for that last inning. He should have been replaced by Konerko after he batted. Also, why didn't he have Willie bunt after Garland's single in the 9th? Also, Timo has been one of our main catalyst lately. Therefore, Gload played and had a terrible game.
:ozzie
"Hey! I make the #$%@* lineup!

Blueprint1
06-20-2004, 02:09 PM
It shows how bad Ozzie really is watching these national league games. I HATE inner league play this has to end. I know the cubs sox games are fun but i cant stand these games we play against florida and the expos who wants to watch this crap. :angry:

RKMeibalane
06-20-2004, 02:09 PM
Ozzie has become a joke of a manager. He continues to make awful decisions. First, Frank should have never benen in the field for that last inning. He should have been replaced by Konerko after he batted. Also, why didn't he have Willie bunt after Garland's single in the 9th? Also, Timo has been one of our main catalyst lately. Therefore, Gload played and had a terrible game. A few quick points:

1. It was not Ozzie's fault the Sox lost. The men on the field deserve blame for this one.

2. As has been stated over and over, Frank Thomas is not a bad first baseman. His problem is throwing, not fielding. He actually moves better around the bag than Konerko, and has better range. He probably should have gotten to that ball, but he didn't. That's part of baseball.

3. And finally... :troll

SSN721
06-20-2004, 02:09 PM
I wish I could find some silver lining, I almost threw up watching this game. I dont get this team, they seem to want you to hate them. Then they come back and play awesome :-( Ugh, this team drives me crazy. Nearly a wasted effort by Garland, but I dont hink he should have finished the ninth. Bring in Shingo ater the double, there is no reason Shingo cant work more then 2/3s of an inning, I just dont understand why we never think he can pitch more then an inning when he seems to retire a side on 5-10 pitches. I am not saying that would guarantee victory, but I would be willing to say they would make it through the ninth still tied and another shot, and bring him back in to sloe it out. This is just disgusting, losing 2 out of 3, then I am sure give the spos there largest run total for a series, just sickening. Watching this team is like playing ro-sham-bo with yourself. Ugh :angry::angry::angry::angry::whiner::whiner::whine r::whiner::whiner:

CubKilla
06-20-2004, 02:10 PM
And for the record... keep Frank at first base. I don't want to see Konerko out there for the remaining National League games.
Konerko could have gone 1.000 in this series with 10 HR's and you'd say the same thing :rolleyes:

kittle42
06-20-2004, 02:11 PM
Unfortunately, I am beginning to see a familiar pattern here. No consistency, no dominance, just uncertainty.

I can't tell from one game to the next what to expect.
Now *this* is really POTW. Right on the head. One thing that's good about a lack of consistency (if there is anything good) is that you generally don't go into long losing streaks. However, you also don't get many winning steaks, either.

It really is a coin toss with this team, and I would not be surprised if they continue to hover just over .500 all season.

Brian26
06-20-2004, 02:11 PM
Also, why didn't he have Willie bunt after Garland's single in the 9th?
Willie loves to lay the bunt down only when it's the most in-opportune time. When we really need it, he'll swing away. But, if he's got two strikes on him or the bases are loaded, you can bet he'll be trying to bunt at something over his head. :angry:

the_valenstache
06-20-2004, 02:11 PM
3 walks in one inning lost this game. Forget the ninth. Forget who was playing first base. Jon Garland lost this game. I don't care if he was throwing a perfect game. At some point, you man up and throw strikes. Pathetic. And this guy's our number 3.

RKMeibalane
06-20-2004, 02:11 PM
Did you see the 6th inning? Whose fault was that?
If the offense had done its part, that wouldn't have mattered. There are a number of Sox hitters who didn't accomplish a single thing at the plate today. Those guys are the ones deserving of blame. Garland did the best he could. It just wasn't enough.

Brian26
06-20-2004, 02:13 PM
Did you see the 6th inning? Whose fault was that?
This team leads the universe in runs scored. They scored 14 last night. Holding the opposition to 2 runs over 8 innings should be enough to win (and Shingo could have mopped up the 9th). End of story. The game was pitched well enough to win.

RKMeibalane
06-20-2004, 02:14 PM
Konerko could have gone 1.000 in this series with 10 HR's and you'd say the same thing :rolleyes:
No, I wouldn't. As long as Frank is not hurting the team, he should play first. All of this tinkering by Ozzie is what caused these three games to turn out as strangely as they did. That, and Munoz not having a clue what he was. KW needs to pull the trigger on a trade soon, or else the Sox are going to be in trouble. They can't afford to give every fifth game away because of terrible pitching.

kittle42
06-20-2004, 02:14 PM
If the offense had done its part, that wouldn't have mattered. There are a number of Sox hitters who didn't accomplish a single thing at the plate today. Those guys are the ones deserving of blame. Garland did the best he could. It just wasn't enough.
Serioulsy - I mean, we all know Garland's M.O. by now. If you told me Garland would have one bad inning in the first 8, I would tell you we'd win.

Not today....

mdep524
06-20-2004, 02:15 PM
A few quick points:

1. It was not Ozzie's fault the Sox lost. The men on the field deserve blame for this one.

2. As has been stated over and over, Frank Thomas is not a bad first baseman. His problem is throwing, not fielding. He actually moves better around the bag than Konerko, and has better range. He probably should have gotten to that ball, but he didn't. That's part of baseball.
Gotten to the ball? It was hit RIGHT TO HIM. He physically moved OUT OF THE WAY of the ball and let it go by. I am a big Frank fan, but that was absolutely pathetic. No excuses for that one.

Also, I've about had it with Garland. It seems ridiculous to be angry at a pticher who just gave up 3 hits (one of which was basically an error on Frank) over 9 innings, and yet Garland still seems like the most frustrating pitcher in the world.

ndgt10
06-20-2004, 02:15 PM
This game was Garland's fault. When you have a perfect game going into the 6th, you don't walk the bases loaded. And when the game is on the line in the 9th, you don't lay a meatball to the expos #4 hitter with 1st base open. Garland needs to get his head out of his ass and learn how to pitch.

greenpeach
06-20-2004, 02:16 PM
Pull your starter when he gives up a double in the 9th.

Was there even anyone warming up when the inning started?

I understand having confidence in your starter, but that was ridiculous.

And a final question, would PK have snatched that one?

Oh well. At least there shouldn't be any damage in the standings. The Indians and Twinkies are both ahead. So are the Flubs. :dtroll: :dtroll: :dtroll:
Ozzie was in a tough spot. The bullpen has been shakey at best this season & your starter has given up only two hits all day. In addition, you're coming off of a game where you used 5 pitchers & gave up 17 runs. It was really a case of picking your poison.

mdep524
06-20-2004, 02:17 PM
Also, whenever the Sox hitters decide to show up and actually put up a fight against good pitching instead of "tipping their cap," fine by me.

RKMeibalane
06-20-2004, 02:17 PM
Serioulsy - I mean, we all know Garland's M.O. by now. If you told me Garland would have one bad inning in the first 8, I would tell you we'd win.

Not today....
Exactly. If people honestly expect Garland to pitch well every single inning of every single game, then they're going to be dissapointed. Even Buerhle, who has been one of the best starters in the AL this season, has had his rough moments (Friday). The offense was asleep this afternoon for reasons I can't begin to explain. I'm just glad the team will be home for the next week, playing under American League rules.

But Ozzie, leave Frank at first.

Iguana775
06-20-2004, 02:18 PM
Isnt Day a pretty good pitcher? i thought he was.

ndgt10
06-20-2004, 02:19 PM
So whenever the offense fails to score 4 or more, it's there fault? We can't expect to win a game 1-0, 2-1, etc? That's some of the biggest bull**** i've ever heard.

ND_Sox_Fan
06-20-2004, 02:19 PM
Isnt Day a pretty good pitcher? i thought he was.
Yeah - you said it pretty good.

Win1ForMe
06-20-2004, 02:20 PM
Watching Jon Garland pitch is like walking on egg shells. You're always a few pitches away from an implosion.

And here's our record on the last 4 road trips:
2-4 (BAL, TOR)
5-2 (CLE, MIN)
1-4 (OAK, SEA)
2-4 (FLA, MON)

That's a first place team right there. Seriously, we'll be lucky to be above .500 at the All-Star break.

ndgt10
06-20-2004, 02:20 PM
Isnt Day a pretty good pitcher? i thought he was.
Not when he lasted less than 2 innings 5 days ago against the twins.

RKMeibalane
06-20-2004, 02:20 PM
Gotten to the ball? It was hit RIGHT TO HIM. He physically moved OUT OF THE WAY of the ball and let it go by. I am a big Frank fan, but that was absolutely pathetic. No excuses for that one.

Also, I've about had it with Garland. It seems ridiculous to be angry at a pticher who just gave up 3 hits (one of which was basically an error on Frank) over 9 innings, and yet Garland still seems like the most frustrating pitcher in the world.
Garland had one bad inning today. If the offense shows up at all, we're not having this discussion. As for Frank, he blew it. **** happens. That's not an excuse to start saying that he shouldn't be playing first base. There are still a number of players on this team who aren't getting the job. Frank is not one of these individuals.

balboner
06-20-2004, 02:20 PM
It seemed like Frank Robinson was playing for the win much more than Ozzie was. A perfect example was when he pinch-hit Sledge for Carroll in the 6th inning. He was being proactive, rather than reactive like Ozzie in the 9th. With the 2-0 count on Cabrera, Garland should have walked him and let Marte come into face Johnson. Instead, we know exactly what happened. Ozzieball, it will get you 1.5 games out.

OEO Magglio
06-20-2004, 02:21 PM
With the hprrendous schedule we have coming up over the next few weeks (sure the Indians suck - but it's awfully hard to win a 4-game series), it would have been nice (re: expected) to take at least 2 from the worst team in baseball, but I guess that's too much to ask.The indians DON'T suck. They're going to be 3 games in back of the sox by tomorrow so the Indians are no cakewalk. I can't believe anyone around here is blaming garland for this loss, he pitched one heck of a game but the offense was shut down. I know there are people here who hate Jon but he pitched great tonight and there is no way this game was his fault.

ndgt10
06-20-2004, 02:23 PM
Isnt Day a pretty good pitcher? i thought he was.
So I guess whenever we face a good pitcher we should just pack it in and take the loss. This team has extreme trouble hitting good to great pitchers. If you expect to win in the playoffs, you need to learn how to hit against that type of pitchers. Teams won't be throwing their junk out there.

Brian26
06-20-2004, 02:23 PM
I can't believe anyone around here is blaming garland for this loss, he pitched one heck of a game but the offense was shut down.
It boggles my mind. If Garland gets the run support today that Buehrle usually gets, this isn't even an issue.

RKMeibalane
06-20-2004, 02:23 PM
The indians DON'T suck. They're going to be 3 games in back of the sox by tomorrow so the Indians are no cakewalk. I can't believe anyone around here is blaming garland for this loss, he pitched one heck of a game but the offense was shut down. I know there are people here who hate Jon but he pitched great tonight and there is no way this game was his fault.
Agreed. This wasn't Garland's fault. Yes, he walked three men in the sixth. Yes, he was probably left in the game too long. Has it occurred to anyone that Ozzie might have been trying to save the bullpen after what's happened this weekend? As the manager, it's Guillen's responsiblity to make sure he doesn't overuse his bullpen. Considering how this weekend's games went, I'd say he was between a rock and hard place. Garland had nothing left in the tank, but the bullpen didn't have much, either.

HaroMaster87
06-20-2004, 02:24 PM
Freakin' DJ...He's up in the booth talking and here's what he says almost verbatim "Garland has handled Cabrera really well today". And of course I say to myself "thats it - game over". The very next pitch - homerun - game over. What a freakin' jinx...:angry:


Oh, and on John Garland...I'm a carpenter and my boss' favorite saying is one that pertains to John Garland "JUST GET IT DONE!!!!!!!" finish something for once...geeeeeeeeez:mad:

Brian26
06-20-2004, 02:25 PM
So I guess whenever we face a good pitcher we should just pack it in and take the loss. This team has extreme trouble hitting good to great pitchers. If you expect to win in the playoffs, you need to learn how to hit against that type of pitchers. Teams won't be throwing their junk out there.
I actually disagree with that. This team has feasted on GREAT pitchers over the past 3 or 4 years. We've pounded Clemens and Pedro and guys in between. The problem is that we get shut down on mediocre to crap pitchers. Zach Day isn't Cy Young. The guys the Tigers were running out there against us last year weren't very good.

mdep524
06-20-2004, 02:25 PM
The indians DON'T suck. They're going to be 3 games in back of the sox by tomorrow so the Indians are no cakewalk. I can't believe anyone around here is blaming garland for this loss, he pitched one heck of a game but the offense was shut down. I know there are people here who hate Jon but he pitched great tonight and there is no way this game was his fault.
I agree that it would be inaccurate to "blame" Garland for the loss. This is a game the Sox should have won and Garland did a good enough job to win.

BUT..I still think Garland is subject to criticism for his performance.

So we should change this thread from "blame" to constructive criticsm, otherwise this will just turn into a huge flame war.

Frankfan4life
06-20-2004, 02:25 PM
Now *this* is really POTW. Right on the head. One thing that's good about a lack of consistency (if there is anything good) is that you generally don't go into long losing streaks. However, you also don't get many winning steaks, either.

It really is a coin toss with this team, and I would not be surprised if they continue to hover just over .500 all season.Thanks for the comp. It seems to me that this team loses their focus so easily. You should be able to at least score 4 runs after scoring 14 the day before. You should be able to sustain a dominent pitching performance. You should be able to lay down a decent bunt. You should be able to beat the bad teams!

I believe your fears about this team may be correct.

What has changed? So far, NOTHING!

Brian26
06-20-2004, 02:27 PM
Moron caller on Willsy right now saying the Sox don't have a bench...

The Sox bench has played AMAZINGLY this year. Timo, Burke, Dransfeldt, Rowand, Gload...these guys have played pretty damn well.

kittle42
06-20-2004, 02:30 PM
If you expect to win in the playoffs...
Playoffs? What are those?

ND_Sox_Fan
06-20-2004, 02:30 PM
Moron caller on Willsy right now saying the Sox don't have a bench...

The Sox bench has played AMAZINGLY this year. Timo, Burke, Dransfeldt, Rowand, Gload...these guys have played pretty damn well.
Someone needs to explain to that caller that there is a difference between a bullpen and a bench. Bullpen - I would agree (outside of Shingo and Marte).

kittle42
06-20-2004, 02:33 PM
So whenever the offense fails to score 4 or more, it's there fault? We can't expect to win a game 1-0, 2-1, etc? That's some of the biggest bull**** i've ever heard.
If the Sox can't win 1-0, 2-1, etc., I wouldn't expect them to take too many from the Cubs the next few weekends.

By the way, how huge is that in between series in Minnesota?

mdep524
06-20-2004, 02:37 PM
Thanks for the comp. It seems to me that this team loses their focus so easily. You should be able to at least score 4 runs after scoring 14 the day before. You should be able to sustain a dominent pitching performance. You should be able to lay down a decent bunt. You should be able to beat the bad teams!

I believe your fears about this team may be correct.

What has changed? So far, NOTHING!
So sad that I agree with this....:(:

AnkleSox
06-20-2004, 02:39 PM
After losing a series to the expos i'm losing hope for a division title. This is pathetic.

Garland looked to be pitching like an above-average pitcher for a while, but once again proved that walks will always overshadow and ruin any effort he puts out.

infohawk
06-20-2004, 02:40 PM
Yeah, it's unfortunate to say the least to lose two out of three to the Expos. I chalk this series loss up to the vacuum that is the 5th starter spot. If we have a credible 5th starter, we would have been playing for the sweep today. I have another way of looking at it though. While we were dropping two against the Expos, the Twins were dropping at least two against the Brewers. The Brewers aren't exactly world-beaters. Over the last couple of years, the Twins would have swept a weaker team while we were simultaneously dropping two or three to another weak team. As it stands, the Sox at worst will open the series against the Indians tomorrow 1.5 games back of the Twins. This is no different than when we began the Montreal series. Maybe we will get lucky and the Brewers will make another comeback like last night.

FYI -- I don't think the Indians are a bad team. They are just young and in need of experience, which they get each and every day. Let's not assume that if we don't win three or four that we are somehow terrible. We are better over a full season, but the Tribe can be a pretty dangerous offensive team.

OEO Magglio
06-20-2004, 02:44 PM
Yeah, it's unfortunate to say the least to lose two out of three to the Expos. I chalk this series loss up to the vacuum that is the 5th starter spot. If we have a credible 5th starter, we would have been playing for the sweep today. I have another way of looking at it though. While we were dropping two against the Expos, the Twins were dropping at least two against the Brewers. The Brewers aren't exactly world-beaters. Over the last couple of years, the Twins would have swept a weaker team while we were simultaneously dropping two or three to another weak team. As it stands, the Sox at worst will open the series against the Indians tomorrow 1.5 games back of the Twins. This is no different than when we began the Montreal series. Maybe we will get lucky and the Brewers will make another comeback like last night.

FYI -- I don't think the Indians are a bad team. They are just young and in need of experience, which they get each and every day. Let's not assume that if we don't win three or four that we are somehow terrible. We are better over a full season, but the Tribe can be a pretty dangerous offensive team.The brewers are very solid this year. I think there record might be close to the sox right about now. The expos suck and the sox sucked in this series.:angry:

OEO Magglio
06-20-2004, 02:46 PM
The brewers are very solid this year. I think there record might be close to the sox right about now. The expos suck and the sox sucked in this series.:angry:Actually right now the Brewers have the exact same record as the sox, 35 and 30.

Philo-Sox-er
06-20-2004, 02:49 PM
A comment and a question:


1) This is why we need to have A closer. If the Yankees had a 1 run lead going into the ninth and they let their starter go out there, as soon as he gave up a hit, Torre would send Rivera in. No questions asked. The game is more important than individual accomplishments.

2) Why is it that every time we have good pitching, the offense doesn't come to play and vice versa? This team is an enigma...

1951Campbell
06-20-2004, 02:50 PM
Wow, people are really falling off the bandwagon fast here.

infohawk
06-20-2004, 02:56 PM
I don't dispute that the Brewers are a much better team than the Expos. I guess I just have two points I'm trying to make.

As far as our competitiveness with the Twins is concerned, they are not taking advantage of our struggles as they have over the last two years.

I don't believe for a minute that the Sox are playing terrible baseball. I think that the lack of a 5th starter cost us the series. Fourteen runs usually wins games. I would have happily taken two out of three. It's hard to sweep anyone. The absence of a credible solution in the 5th starter position is an organizational/management issue that must be addressed. If it isn't addressed, we shouldn't expect the rest of the team to play over it. The ball is clearly is Kenny's court. Let's see what he does.

mdep524
06-20-2004, 02:57 PM
2) Why is it that every time we have good pitching, the offense doesn't come to play and vice versa? This team is an enigma...
It seems like whenever one part of the team is solid, the other part feels they don't need to carry the load and thus they don't show up at all. If the pitching is good, the hitters don't feel any pressure to produce because the pitching is keeping them in the game.

Some people have said this is why the Mariners and the Rangers actually played BETTER after ARod left- with their most dependable player gone, everyone knew they had to come to play everyday and that produced a more consistent effort. There is certainly NO consistency at all with this White Sox team.

mendozaln
06-20-2004, 02:57 PM
1) This is why we need to have A closer. If the Yankees had a 1 run lead going into the ninth and they let their starter go out there, as soon as he gave up a hit, Torre would send Rivera in. No questions asked. The game is more important than individual accomplishments.
I don't understand your point -- are you saying that Takatsu should have been brought in after the hit in the bottom of the ninth? The Sox were tied at that point, they didn't have a lead.

Also, Rivera is an unfair standard. We just don't have anyone that good, but I'm not sure any team but the Yankees does, either.

mmmmmbeeer
06-20-2004, 02:58 PM
Wow, people are really falling off the bandwagon fast here.
I'm still hanging on man. This team was built to compete in the AL. I think that we can compete in NL parks, but not when we're also without Maggs. You can't expect to beat a good pitcher, which Day is, with 2 of your 3 best hitters not in the game.

JRIG
06-20-2004, 03:02 PM
I don't understand your point -- are you saying that Takatsu should have been brought in after the hit in the bottom of the ninth? The Sox were tied at that point, they didn't have a lead.

Also, Rivera is an unfair standard. We just don't have anyone that good, but I'm not sure any team but the Yankees does, either.
The Red Sox do. :)

ndgt10
06-20-2004, 03:03 PM
I actually disagree with that. This team has feasted on GREAT pitchers over the past 3 or 4 years. We've pounded Clemens and Pedro and guys in between. The problem is that we get shut down on mediocre to crap pitchers. Zach Day isn't Cy Young. The guys the Tigers were running out there against us last year weren't very good.
I agree with Clemens, but here is a list of pitchers I quickly put together:
ERA W/L BAA
Clemens 7.44 1-2 .293

Mulder 2.31 4-1 .209
Zito 3.16 4-0 .226
Hudson 4.67 2-1 .240
Halladay 2.35 1-0 .221
Moyer 2.08 1-0 .136
Vazquez 1.13 2-0 .136
P. Martinez 1.80 0-0 .300
D. Lowe 3.00 1-1 .237
V. Zambrano 0.52 1-0 .167

I wouldn't exactly say that we "feast" off of the "so-called" top pitchers.

Philo-Sox-er
06-20-2004, 03:05 PM
From: mendozaln

I don't understand your point -- are you saying that Takatsu should have been brought in after the hit in the bottom of the ninth? The Sox were tied at that point, they didn't have a lead.

Also, Rivera is an unfair standard. We just don't have anyone that good, but I'm not sure any team but the Yankees does, either.

Right. Well there are some others out there like Gagne, Foulke, Wagner, Smoltz, et al. Granted there are fewer of them than there are teams and it makes sense that we don't have one of them.

I just was lementing on how I wish we had couple og go-to guys. There should be very little thinking involved when your starter goes into the ninth, has thrown over a 100 pitches, and gives up a double. You bring in a fresh arm. If you have to think about this, this is a clear indication the team is under-staffed. I guess that was my main point for which I used an ill-fitted example.

mendozaln
06-20-2004, 03:11 PM
Right. Well there are some others out there like Gagne, Foulke, Wagner, Smoltz, et al. Granted there are fewer of them than there are teams and it makes sense that we don't have one of them.

I just was lementing on how I wish we had couple og go-to guys. There should be very little thinking involved when your starter goes into the ninth, has thrown over a 100 pitches, and gives up a double. You bring in a fresh arm. If you have to think about this, this is a clear indication the team is under-staffed. I guess that was my main point for which I used an ill-fitted example.
OK, just wanted to understand. I don't disagree, and actually I was surprised Marte or Takatsu weren't brought in.

Gagne and Wagner, maybe. I'd put the other 2 behind Rivera, although they're both very good.

Lip Man 1
06-20-2004, 03:21 PM
My thanks to the White Sox for giving all of us a Happy Father's Day!

This club looks in great shape for the Indians and the Cubs... having now lost 11 of 18.

This comment was made earlier in the thread: "Unfortunately, I am beginning to see a familiar pattern here. No consistency, no dominance, just uncertainty."

I agree. It's hard to be dominant when you have some major holes on the roster. The Sox longest win streak this season has been four games. But all of us knew that coming into the season and so far unfortunately, nothing has been done to correct them. Being 'fiscally responsible' does have its drawbacks.

And with respect to the job done so far by some of the Sox bench players, in the long run you're not going to win a lot with guys like Kelly Dransfeld and Ross Gload and Jamie Burke on the bench.

Maybe getting back home will shake the club up (unless it's hot and humid in Chicago :smile: )

Don't look now but not only is Cleveland in the area record-wise but so is Tampa Bay.

By the way that's the second time Jackson has opened his mouth and almost as soon as he said his piece the hitter knocked the crapola out of the ball (first time in Oakland remember? Even Hawk was giving Jackson some garbage afterwards.)

Lip

Whisox1
06-20-2004, 03:42 PM
And with respect to the job done so far by some of the Sox bench players, in the long run you're not going to win a lot with guys like Kelly Dransfeld and Ross Gload and Jamie Burke on the bench.

Thanks for supporting my point with Dave Wills on the post-game show. Yes, that was me who went off on his argument that we lost to the worst team in baseball because of the lack of Mags and a DH. And I did not even get to the issue of the horrid shape of our bullpen (except for Marte and Shingo).

I am still steamed about the Sox performance this weekend. :angry:

Frater Perdurabo
06-20-2004, 04:02 PM
Wow, people are really falling off the bandwagon fast here.
I'm still on the bandwagon. But the Sox need some more horses, like a top-of-the-rotation starter, bullpen help and a left-handed CF. The Sox have enough in the minors to trade to fill all three holes. It certainly will help when Maggs comes back as well.

Deadguy
06-20-2004, 04:07 PM
Wow. I can't believe I just scrolled through a thread where there were numerous attacks on an announcer, suggesting that he cost us this game. :?:

Watch your back Nancy Faust, if we lose on Monday.

Lip Man 1
06-20-2004, 04:18 PM
Deadguy:

Baseball players and fans are very superstitious. There is no sense in tempting fate. DJ being a former player, should know better (especially with the Sox bullpen as currently constructed.)

Lip

RKMeibalane
06-20-2004, 04:32 PM
Deadguy:

Baseball players and fans are very superstitious. There is no sense in tempting fate. DJ being a former player, should know better (especially with the Sox bullpen as currently constructed.)

Lip
Yes, DJ should know better, but DJ has proven several times that he is an idiot. Thus, it's not surprising that he doesn't know better.

skobabe8
06-20-2004, 04:46 PM
All of these Garland bashers need to shut their mouths. It is LAUGHABLE that people are seriously gonna pin the blame on this guy. Jon pitched his butt off today, AND had a base hit.

Offense: Stop making excuses! Recognize when its time to stop swinging off your back foot!

Its funny how if we would have scored in double digits today, people would be kissing the ground upon which Jon Garland walks. But since the 'O' cant pick him up and do something to scratch a run across, Garland is all of a sudden terrible.

Gimme a break. :angry:

skobabe8
06-20-2004, 04:48 PM
And DJ has made these last 2 games even more sickening. Not sure if its been mentioned, but did anyone catch that joke he told saturday about the turtle and the snail????? :angry: :angry:

ND_Sox_Fan
06-20-2004, 05:56 PM
And DJ has made these last 2 games even more sickening. Not sure if its been mentioned, but did anyone catch that joke he told saturday about the turtle and the snail????? :angry: :angry:
Yeah, and Hawk was completely speechless after he said that... Hawk has to be getting tired of sharing the booth with such a complete idiot.

duke of dorwood
06-20-2004, 06:27 PM
Where's the Shout Box when I need it:angry:

FarWestChicago
06-20-2004, 06:37 PM
Where's the Shout Box when I need it:angry:Gone for good. I'm not installing many hacks to prevent difficulties with upgrading in the future. It was nothing but a crap box anyway.

TornLabrum
06-20-2004, 07:05 PM
Deadguy:

Baseball players and fans are very superstitious. There is no sense in tempting fate. DJ being a former player, should know better (especially with the Sox bullpen as currently constructed.)

Lip
Of course anyone with a lick of common sense knows that those superstitions are a lot of hogwash...which is why when I called my son this spring to let him know I was watching the 7th inning of a no-hitter at Kane Co., I said, "We're in the 7th inning, and the pitcher has faced one batter more than the minimum, and that was a walk."

Philo-Sox-er
06-20-2004, 07:10 PM
I was listening to the game on the radio: what was DJ's joke about the turtle and the snail?

skobabe8
06-20-2004, 09:06 PM
I was listening to the game on the radio: what was DJ's joke about the turtle and the snail?
Not sure what inning it was, but obvioulsy we were losing. Dj tells hawk he has a great joke:

Q: "What did the snail say when he was riding on the back of a turtle?"
A: "WHEEEEEEEEEEEE!"

It was so incredibly stupid, Hawk had absolutley no response, and it made an already frustrating game that much worse.

Viva Magglio
06-20-2004, 09:16 PM
As far as I'm concerned, the Polyannas do not have a leg to stand on.

FarWestChicago
06-20-2004, 09:19 PM
As far as I'm concerned, the Polyannas do not have a leg to stand on.I'm glad you think the season is over. I'm assuming you'll be leaving until next season when you can quit before the All Star break again. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

PaleHoseGeorge
06-20-2004, 09:25 PM
I'm glad you think the season is over. I'm assuming you'll be leaving until next season when you can quit before the All Star break again. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
We've already played twice as many games as the Bears, so the season *must* be over!!!

Oh, wait...

Viva Magglio
06-20-2004, 09:34 PM
I'm glad you think the season is over. I'm assuming you'll be leaving until next season when you can quit before the All Star break again. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
I didn't say the season is over. Don't be inferring I'm saying things I didn't say. As far as the Polyannas comment is concerned, I'm just tired of this Polyanna attitude where the Polyannas bristle everytime someone expresses a concern over how things are going.

We have lost 11 of our last 16 ballgames. While it's amazing that we're only 1 out at this point, we cannot be pleased with this and assume that things will be fine in the future.

OurBitchinMinny
06-20-2004, 09:36 PM
Lots of negativity, but I guess I understand it. I didnt see any of the game cause I was working, but I assumed the expos would be a fairly easy sweep. I guess I was wrong. All teams go through bad stretches. Hopefully this is the white sox worst stretch. I hope so because if they have another one (and Im not sure this one is quite over, I dont have a good feeling about the cubs series) they likely wont be playing in october. But they are only 1.5 out and have owned the twins thus far.

This 4 game series against the tribe is very important too. Not only to get right for the cubs series and off this bad stretch, but also because cleveland is right there. They are a pretty solid club and will be tough next year especially, but take 3/4 or sweep and they go away for this year.

FarWestChicago
06-20-2004, 09:37 PM
I didn't say the season is over. Don't be inferring I'm saying things I didn't say. As far as the Polyannas comment is concerned, I'm just tired of this Polyanna attitude where the Polyannas bristle everytime someone expresses a concern over how things are going.OMG!! http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/eek.gif

For every positive post on this board there are at least 100 depressive rants. I'm sorry you're offended by people who aren't FOLIP's by nature. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/violin.gif

PaleHoseGeorge
06-20-2004, 09:44 PM
....
We have lost 11 of our last 16 ballgames. While it's amazing that we're only 1 out at this point, we cannot be pleased with this and assume that things will be fine in the future.
Oh, please... the converse of your statement is we cannot be DISPLEASED with being only 1-1/2 out after losing 11 of our last 16 games.

We've sucked since Magglio got hurt, the manager benched Frank, and the GM sat on his hands to prevent forfeiting games every fifth start.

Anyone who can't understand this is a bit of a pollyanna himself for failing to understand the nature of baseball's 162-game schedule.

Flight #24
06-20-2004, 10:47 PM
Oh, please... the converse of your statement is we cannot be DISPLEASED with being only 1-1/2 out after losing 11 of our last 16 games.

We've sucked since Magglio got hurt, the manager benched Frank, and the GM sat on his hands to prevent forfeiting games every fifth start.

Anyone who can't understand this is a bit of a pollyanna himself for failing to understand the nature of baseball's 162-game schedule.

Thank you. Imagine what will happen once Maggs comes back, and when (not if), we get a 5th starter.

Interleague play is done (except for 3 Cub games). That means we get our full O back, and in another week or so, Maggs completes it. The closer & short relief situation is very solid. Long relief and a 5th starter is what we need, and it'll be out there. We'll be fine.

Jjav829
06-20-2004, 11:01 PM
Thank you. Imagine what will happen once Maggs comes back, and when (not if), we get a 5th starter.

Interleague play is done (except for 3 Cub games). That means we get our full O back, and in another week or so, Maggs completes it. The closer & short relief situation is very solid. Long relief and a 5th starter is what we need, and it'll be out there. We'll be fine.
I agree that we'll be better once we get Maggs back and find a 5th starter. I'm still worried about the pen as a whole though. Marte is fine. I still don't know that you want to pin your playoff hopes on Shingo. I still worry about him but hopefully he continues to pitch well. I think KW has to acquire at least one more bullpen arm. As far as I'm concerned, Mike Jackson and Cliff Politte could have stayed in Montreal. Shingo, Marte, Adkins, and Cotts are ok. Now we need 2 more right handers out there who can actually get out of an inning without allowing a run.

ma-gaga
06-20-2004, 11:17 PM
Oh, please... the converse of your statement is we cannot be DISPLEASED with being only 1-1/2 out after losing 11 of our last 16 games.

We've sucked since Magglio got hurt, the manager benched Frank, and the GM sat on his hands to prevent forfeiting games every fifth start.

Anyone who can't understand this is a bit of a pollyanna himself for failing to understand the nature of baseball's 162-game schedule.
I think you should be ecstatic. The big picture for this weekend is that you no longer have Billy Koch to screw things up for your team. I think your team made a fantastic addition by subtraction move here...

:dtroll: <--- I love the dancing troll...

MRKARNO
06-20-2004, 11:18 PM
Now we need 2 more right handers out there who can actually get out of an inning without allowing a run.
I think that we should acquire one and give Jose Santiago from Charlotte a chance. He's had some good years with KC and last year with Cleveland and we're letting him sit around in AAA while we have two possibly worse options already pitching for us in Politte and Jackson. Santiago's numbers are fine in AAA and he is deserving of a call

starboy0
06-21-2004, 08:30 AM
This road trip made me sick. Alright... losing 2 out of 3 to the world champion Marlins can happen but losing 2 out of 3 to the Expos is sick. Minnesota swept them. We score 14 runs one day and can't win. Garland throws a 3-hitter and loses. Damn! Who knows if this year will follow the pattern of last year but perhaps this is the low point before things come together.

Last year at this time when we had Cubs-Twins-Cubs-Twins we won all 4 series. (Then Koch loses one to Tampa but no more Koch!) If we can get a quality starter (not 5th...more like a 3rd) things might start to click. Right now it's like pushing a cart and every 5th start a wheel falls off. Always a momentum killer.