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lowesox
06-19-2004, 05:03 PM
The SOx never seem to get a good ML Debut from their starters. So let's all send Arnie Munoz some good karma. Something tells me, he's going to be different.

MRKARNO
06-19-2004, 05:06 PM
Well this is the first time that we're throwing one of our best prospects out there now, so it would be real encouraging to see him throw the ball well. If he does, then he will not be treated as a stop-gap I hope, seeing that he is legitimately part of the future of this team. KW picked a good team for him to get his ML debut against, the worst scoring team in the bigs (though they will be better now that they are at full strength again). I really doubt that the expos can score 7+ runs a second game in a row.

SoxxoS
06-19-2004, 05:22 PM
I LOVE the fact he isn't doing one of those B.S. 3 inning relief stints...this is when he is scheduled to pitch. Add to that that he is facing a pretty inept offense and the fact that we could possibly get some runs early against Armas...I smell a good shot to do well.

IlliniSoxFan
06-19-2004, 05:23 PM
I've got the karma machine churning full-blast! Let's go Arnie!! Hopefully he won't be too nervous, and will be able to put the Expos away. The thing about him that I'm encouraged about is the talk of his having a phenom overhand curveball - that'll keep hitters honest. Here's hoping for a Sox winner and a Twins loser!!!
:dtroll:

Rex Hudler
06-19-2004, 05:26 PM
The SOx never seem to get a good ML Debut from their starters. So let's all send Arnie Munoz some good karma. Something tells me, he's going to be different.
Screw karma, let's get him some runs early!

MRKARNO
06-19-2004, 05:36 PM
I LOVE the fact he isn't doing one of those B.S. 3 inning relief stints...this is when he is scheduled to pitch. Add to that that he is facing a pretty inept offense and the fact that we could possibly get some runs early against Armas...I smell a good shot to do well.
Yeah it seems that we are actually putting him in the best position to succeed this time around. He even got to face Sammy Strikeout in his last start. The AA jump is fairly big, but I have confidence that he can go out and give us at least a 5 IP 4 ER performance, which would easily put us in position to win

Iguana775
06-19-2004, 05:41 PM
Wasnt the last guy to jump from AA Burly? lets how he has the same success....

Nick@Nite
06-19-2004, 05:47 PM
C'mon Arnie Munoz, keep it tight and Good Luck today! :bandance:

sas1974
06-19-2004, 05:53 PM
Proceed w/ caution, folks. That "inept offense" just scored 7 runs off of one of our best pitchers 24 hours ago.

PS - Good luck, Arnie!!

iwannago
06-19-2004, 06:04 PM
I think we're really overdue, good luck Arnie!:)

owensmouth
06-19-2004, 06:15 PM
Just what we need, a tricky little lefty. Been waiting for him to show up since he dominated in the Carribbean a year and a half ago. Let's go Arnie!

MRKARNO
06-19-2004, 06:40 PM
Just what we need, a tricky little lefty. Been waiting for him to show up since he dominated in the Carribbean a year and a half ago. Let's go Arnie!
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20030126&content_id=193947&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp

Thats an article from right after he ended his winter league season in 2002. A lot of talent (better than normal) went down to play there that year IIRC

Philo-Sox-er
06-19-2004, 07:48 PM
Shaky start. We need the bats to support the kid and hopefully he'll regain his composure...

Frank the Tank
06-19-2004, 08:02 PM
wow

Brian26
06-19-2004, 08:03 PM
Sox now down 10-1.

Arnie, your tickets for Birmingham will be waiting in your locker.

Meanwhile, hope KW is working the phones...

A.T. Money
06-19-2004, 08:05 PM
Montreal has scored 10 runs in a game once this year.

We just gave them 9 in ONE inning. Ouch.

Munoz was throwing meatballs out there.

Philo-Sox-er
06-19-2004, 08:06 PM
45.00 ERA.


This is really frustrating. We need a 5th starter or the Twins will put too much distance between us and them in the standings. If we would have won even half of the games our fifth starters lost, we'd have a several game lead in the division.

Don't any of these young guys want to make the big leagues? Farmer and Rooney questioned the minor league system since these guys all have good numbers down there and then come up here and suck. What gives?!?!

beckett21
06-19-2004, 08:06 PM
Ummmm......someone here tell me again that this was a good idea to shatter yet another young man's confidence......:?:


Rauch is looking like friggin' Cy Young now!

:o:

California Sox
06-19-2004, 08:07 PM
Arnie, your tickets for Birmingham will be waiting in your locker.


No they won't. After what happened with Rauch they're gonna wait until after the game is over to give him the ticket.

Getting Rocky Biddle back looks like a great move right now. Or maybe Kevin Hickey could still take the mound.

beckett21
06-19-2004, 08:09 PM
Montreal has scored 10 runs in a game once this year.

We just gave them 9 in ONE inning. Ouch.

Munoz was throwing meatballs out there.
Throwing meatballs.....or is a meatball? :(:

Honestly it isn't the kid's fault. Rauch should have been back in there. But then again, what the hell do I know?

This is a travesty.

<*beats dead horse*>

<*runs from lynch mob*>

:angry:

Viva Magglio
06-19-2004, 08:10 PM
Español: Arnie Muñoz = English: Jim Parque

PaulDrake
06-19-2004, 08:11 PM
Is he going to leave early? :?:

Frank the Tank
06-19-2004, 08:12 PM
Is he going to leave early? :?:
ha ha

beckett21
06-19-2004, 08:13 PM
45.00 ERA.


This is really frustrating.
Understatement of the year.


Don't any of these young guys want to make the big leagues? Farmer and Rooney questioned the minor league system since these guys all have good numbers down there and then come up here and suck. What gives?!?!
None of them are READY. They don't belong up here. Hopefully this kid has a strong character, because he is gonna be having some nightmares after this one. Never should have even been here. The guy who should have been here was run out of town on a rail, never to be heard from again

<*commences beating dead horse again*>

Rauch may not have fared any better, but my guess is that he would have. That was an absolute abomination.

Philo-Sox-er
06-19-2004, 08:13 PM
Twins up 1-0 in the top of the 5th. Go Brewers!

Daver
06-19-2004, 08:15 PM
I think perhaps the expectations out of a twenty two year old, that was a closer/setup pitcher until three months ago, were a little high to begin with.


But then again, what the hell do I know?

beckett21
06-19-2004, 08:16 PM
I think perhaps the expectations out of a twenty two year old, that was a closer/setup pitcher until three months ago, were a little high to begin with.


But then again, what the hell do I know?
I know one thing, you sure as hell know more than me. :redneck

Viva Magglio
06-19-2004, 08:18 PM
Twins up 1-0 in the top of the 5th. Go Brewers!
Great...1½ back again, potentially! As Maxine Nightingale is getting ready to sing "Right Back Where We Started From".

Daver
06-19-2004, 08:18 PM
I know one thing, you sure as hell know more than me. :redneck
I know nothing about baseball.

ndgt10
06-19-2004, 08:22 PM
Jason Grilli, you're the next contestant on the 5th starter roulette!

Win1ForMe
06-19-2004, 08:25 PM
Understatement of the year.



None of them are READY. They don't belong up here.
How long before Rauch is ready, then? When he's 30?

Brian26
06-19-2004, 08:25 PM
Anyone else think Munoz looks almost identical to a young Wilson Alvarez in his stature on the mound and his delivery?

California Sox
06-19-2004, 08:25 PM
It's the bottom of the third and they're already on an exhibition golf tournament from the seventies. What the heck are they going to be talking about by the eighth?

TornLabrum
06-19-2004, 08:27 PM
What we're witnessing are the fruits of KW's inaction this past offseason. Had we replaced Colon with a comparable pitcher, Schoeneweis would have been the fifth starter, and we'd have a nice lead over the Twins now, so I certainly hope I don't hear anyone defending the lack of action during the offseason.

A.T. Money
06-19-2004, 08:27 PM
Why are we embarrassing this kid? Geez.

beckett21
06-19-2004, 08:27 PM
How long before Rauch is ready, then? When he's 30?
For the record, I have been calling for Rauch since Wright went down. But after the GM goes on record as saying he will never pitch for the club again, apparently he is not an option.

Thanks for paying attention though.

balboner
06-19-2004, 08:31 PM
By far, the biggest problem that Diaz, Rauch, and Munoz has had is striking batters out. All 3 of them were unable to get that last strike, and that's why the Sox are 0-7 from the 5th starters position.

DrummerGeorgefan
06-19-2004, 08:31 PM
Its never good when the announcers are kinda heckling you, saying sarcastically that giving up 1 run is a victory for yourself.

Win1ForMe
06-19-2004, 08:32 PM
For the record, I have been calling for Rauch since Wright went down. But after the GM goes on record as saying he will never pitch for the club again, apparently he is not an option.

Thanks for paying attention though.
But you just said he wasn't ready. Now you're changing your tune into blaming Kenny for not giving him an opportunity? I think he deserves another chance (so I agree with you on that), but to say that we can't expect him to be ready is a joke.

beckett21
06-19-2004, 08:38 PM
But you just said he wasn't ready. Now you're changing your tune into blaming Kenny for not giving him an opportunity? I think he deserves another chance (so I agree with you on that), but to say that we can't expect him to be ready is a joke.
Sorry. I lumped him in there with the others but I do think he is as ready as he is going to be. I haven't changed my tune, I still think it should be Rauch's job--given the other options. But after the way KW and the majority of the collective fan base jumped all over him, it was obviously not a viable option at this time. I do think the Diaz and now Munoz experiments should never even have taken place....should have been Rauch all the way.

Hopefully Kenny either swallows his pride and brings him back up, or makes a move before we need another fifth starter. I haven't really changed my tune, sorry if I made it sound that way. But for the long haul, this needs to be settled from outside the organization, bottom line.

Wasn't trying to jump on you, sorry for the confusion.

NonetheLoaiza
06-19-2004, 08:40 PM
This is just a terrible situation. I have to think that there may be something wrong with the pitch instruction in the minors. Anybody know anything about this? What is the problem?

Daver
06-19-2004, 08:43 PM
This is just a terrible situation. I have to think that there may be something wrong with the pitch instruction in the minors. Anybody know anything about this? What is the problem?
It could have something to do with the fact that they do not face MLB quality hitters in the minors.


But then again, what the hell do I know?

Flight #24
06-19-2004, 08:44 PM
I've got the karma machine churning full-blast!

Looks like Arnie got run over by the Sox 5th starter Kar-ma.

beckett21
06-19-2004, 08:45 PM
But then again, what the hell do I know?
You forgot your little copyright thingy there, boss. :)

beckett21
06-19-2004, 08:47 PM
Looks like Arnie got run over by the Sox 5th starter Kar-ma.
The Expos Kar-ma ran over the Sox Dog-ma.

(Yes indeed I did steal that from a bumper sticker, no way am I this clever.)

woodenleg
06-19-2004, 08:48 PM
The beginning of this thread is hilarious. He's 'different', alright.

Daver
06-19-2004, 08:54 PM
You forgot your little copyright thingy there, boss. :)
The code for it no longer works since the changeover to the new forum.

Jjav829
06-19-2004, 08:59 PM
The code for it no longer works since the changeover to the new forum.©Character map is your friend. :smile:

Flight #24
06-19-2004, 09:09 PM
Sorry. I lumped him in there with the others but I do think he is as ready as he is going to be. .
Yeah, he really showed that he was ready his last time out.......

Yes, he's done well since his last start, but so's Arnie. The 5th starter will not be coming from within.

What's frustrating is that not only do our guys come up and not get the job done...they absolutely blow chunks. Maybe Coop's missed in the minors more than one would have thought?

A.T. Money
06-19-2004, 09:12 PM
Montreal on a mission!

We can't stop them.

beckett21
06-19-2004, 09:14 PM
Yeah, he really showed that he was ready his last time out.......

Yes, he's done well since his last start, but so's Arnie. The 5th starter will not be coming from within.

What's frustrating is that not only do our guys come up and not get the job done...they absolutely blow chunks. Maybe Coop's missed in the minors more than one would have thought?
Rip Rauch all you want. At least the guy has MLB experience. Diaz and Munoz have no business on a MLB mound at this stage of their development.

Ultimately, I agree that this cannot be fixed from within. Of the three, however, Rauch did show the most composure IMO. He was not in a position to succeed, IIRC he pitched once in 9 days and was coming out of the pen. Feel free to correct me on those facts, but he had to have some rust on him.

Viva Magglio
06-19-2004, 09:17 PM
The Brewers put a crooked number up on that board and lead Minnesota 6-5 going into the 8th inning.

Flight #24
06-19-2004, 09:18 PM
Rip Rauch all you want. At least the guy has MLB experience. Diaz and Munoz have no business on a MLB mound at this stage of their development.

Ultimately, I agree that this cannot be fixed from within. Of the three, however, Rauch did show the most composure IMO. He was not in a position to succeed, IIRC he pitched once in 9 days and was coming out of the pen. Feel free to correct me on those facts, but he had to have some rust on him.

IMO it was a tossup based on performance between Munoz & Rauch. And FWIW, I don't know that experience being knocked around in MLB is worth much (otherwise, the same argument could be made for Arnie after this start!).

To quote Elton John....the 5th starter.....HE SHALL BE LIVAN!!!

beckett21
06-19-2004, 09:23 PM
IMO it was a tossup based on performance between Munoz & Rauch. And FWIW, I don't know that experience being knocked around in MLB is worth much (otherwise, the same argument could be made for Arnie after this start!).
Rauch did have some good starts, problem is they were pre-injury. I'll admit he is questionable at this point, but it would have served us better to give him a couple more tries given how he has performed in Charlotte. It's decision-time for Rauch; we have plenty of time on Arnie.

Munoz and Diaz should not have been thrown into the fire yet. Just my opinion.

Flight #24
06-19-2004, 09:33 PM
Rauch did have some good starts, problem is they were pre-injury. I'll admit he is questionable at this point, but it would have served us better to give him a couple more tries given how he has performed in Charlotte. It's decision-time for Rauch; we have plenty of time on Arnie.

Munoz and Diaz should not have been thrown into the fire yet. Just my opinion.
I can see your point. IMO, Diaz should have gotten at least one more start. I wuld have said the same for Rauch, but the much-discussed "travel plans" incident made that more difficult.

OurBitchinMinny
06-19-2004, 09:36 PM
wow I just got home from worked and flipped on WGN. Talk about let downs. Oh well, the kid shouldnt have been thrown. They are putting too much pressure on these young guys. Help has to come from outside so SS or garland becomes the #5.

Philo-Sox-er
06-19-2004, 09:54 PM
Yes! The Twins lost to the Brew Crew!

Viva Magglio
06-19-2004, 09:55 PM
Brew Crew wins 7-6. Cards win 9-2 too.

jeremyb1
06-19-2004, 10:06 PM
Rauch did have some good starts, problem is they were pre-injury.

Rauch went under the knife about a month into the '01 season and made his major league debut at the beginning of the '02 season with his two best starts coming against the Twins in September '02 so he never faced a major league hitter "pre injury".

jeremyb1
06-19-2004, 10:20 PM
2.0 IP, 8 H, 8 ER, 2 BB, 1 K
6.0 IP, 10 H, 7 ER, 1 HR, 1 BB, 4 K

4 IP, 8 H, 10 ER, 3 HR, 4 BB, 1 K

5.1 IP, 10 H, 6 ER, 1 HR, 4 BB, 4 K

6 IP, 8 H, 6 ER, 2 HR, 3 BB, 6 K

Those are lines on starts for Buehrle, Garland, Schoeneweis, and Loaiza. So, even our strong top four starters have all been brutalized at some point this season, in some cases (Buehrle's and Garland's) worse than others. The difference is, their poor starts have been outweighed by other good starts. For all we know this would be the case with Munoz, Rauch, and Diaz as well but they are only allowed one or two starts so who knows?

Munoz obviously did particularly poorly tonight but a large part of that is Ozzie's fault. You just don't leave a 21 year old pitcher making his major league debut in to allow 12 runs and throw 91 pitches in only 3 innings. It's dangerous physically and mentally.

One start tells you a very limited amount no matter how well or how poorly a guy pitches. Making your major league debut is often quite hard. You're unaccustomed to the level, you're nervous, guys probably often try to do to much and to be too perfect with their pitches getting away from what was successful for them in the minors.

If we have no choice than to deal that's KW and Ozzie's fault in my opinion. Wright has been down for quite a while and although we've seen four pitchers start since then we have absolutely no clue whether or not any of them could succeed in the role because we haven't given any one of them a fair shot. I find it ridiculous to write comments about sending Munoz back to the minors and concerns about the state of our minor league pitching because we don't have any clue about the ability of any minor league pitcher in the system to step in since none have been given a good look.

A. Cavatica
06-19-2004, 10:24 PM
All I know is, if we pull this one out, I'll be "All right! A win from the #5 spot!"

Philo-Sox-er
06-19-2004, 10:26 PM
From jeremy

Munoz obviously did particularly poorly tonight but a large part of that is Ozzie's fault. You just don't leave a 21 year old pitcher making his major league debut in to allow 12 runs and throw 91 pitches in only 3 innings. It's dangerous physically and mentally.



Now that the game comes down to a one run difference in the ninth, you couldn't be more correct on the decision to leave him in for the 3rd inning, at the very least!

Viva Magglio
06-19-2004, 10:29 PM
This was a terribly managed game by Ozzie tonight. And that bad bunt by Willie killed our momentum

Montreal Alouettes 17, Chicago Bears 14 (Final)

Lip Man 1
06-19-2004, 10:42 PM
I got home at 8PM Mountain time flipped on WGN and then flipped out. At first I thought someone opearating the chyron generator punched up the wrong number.


17 runs?
To Montreal???

That's more then they get in a week...that is embarassing.

Wow.

Lip

beckett21
06-19-2004, 10:46 PM
Rauch went under the knife about a month into the '01 season and made his major league debut at the beginning of the '02 season with his two best starts coming against the Twins in September '02 so he never faced a major league hitter "pre injury".
Oops. Thanks, glad someone was paying attention. My bad.

All the more reason he should have been the 5th starter all along.

Flight #24
06-19-2004, 10:48 PM
I got home at 8PM Mountain time flipped on WGN and then flipped out. At first I thought someone opearating the chyron generator punched up the wrong number.


17 runs?
To Montreal???

That's more then they get in a week...that is embarassing.

Wow.

LipMore embarrassing: 25runs to them in 2 games......I heard their scoreboard operator pulled muscle because he's not used to the level of effort he's been putting in the past 2 days.

By the way - isn't Olympic stadium supposed to be a pitcher's park?

Oh well, still only .5 out!!!:gulp: :bandance: :gulp: :bandance: :gulp:

Mohoney
06-19-2004, 10:51 PM
Español: Arnie Muñoz = English: Jim Parque

Yup. No legit third pitch.

A starter with only 2 pitches is dead at the major league level.

Mohoney
06-19-2004, 10:56 PM
This was a terribly managed game by Ozzie tonight. And that bad bunt by Willie killed our momentum

Montreal Alouettes 17, Chicago Bears 14 (Final)

100% correct. Shingo needed to start the 8th. Cotts looked like he was running on fumes after working back-to-back games.

If Ozzie learns a lesson from tonight, then it's not a total loss.

jeremyb1
06-19-2004, 11:26 PM
100% correct. Shingo needed to start the 8th.

Exactly. Did someone tell Ozzie that you shouldn't treat a 14-15 game as a one run game since the score is so high? A lot of good it does to let Cotts surrender two runs and then bring in Shingo. If you wouldn't bring him into a one run game why on earth would you bring him into a three run game?!?! Utter nonsense.

JB98
06-19-2004, 11:50 PM
Yup. No legit third pitch.

A starter with only 2 pitches is dead at the major league level.
You are correct that he doesn't have a third pitch, but I don't think that was really a factor tonight. A lot of times you'll see a two-pitch pitcher get through the lineup once and then get shelled the second or third time through. Obviously, the Expos were on Munoz from the very start. His curve ball sucked tonight. That's supposed to be his out pitch, but it looked like a hanger more often than not. His mid-80s fastball was straight and in the middle of the plate too. I felt bad for the kid. He should have been removed two batters before Rivera hit the slam to make it 10-1. I don't think I've ever seen any pitcher, let alone a 21-year-old kid, give up nine runs in an inning and then be allowed to start the next inning. Adkins should have been brought into this game. I was under the impression that he is our long reliever. Where the hell was he tonight?

hawkjt
06-20-2004, 02:55 AM
Everything Munoz threw was up in the zone. No strikes with the curveball and he was ripe for the picking. Ozzie was slow to react-I don't care what Hawk says. IF it was a good team with solid pitching and you are down 6-1 early maybe you let Arnie get some on the job training but not the very beatable Expos. You gotta figure you still have a good chance of coming back at 6-1. Diaz,Munoz and Rauch might be decent some day but none of them has a power arm that screams stuff. If they dont have total command they are in trouble. The bullpen is in shambles right now and we are trading(giving) away the guy with the biggest arm in on the team. We need pitching of all varieties.

The Cheat
06-20-2004, 03:37 AM
Munoz obviously did particularly poorly tonight but a large part of that is Ozzie's fault. You just don't leave a 21 year old pitcher making his major league debut in to allow 12 runs and throw 91 pitches in only 3 innings. It's dangerous physically and mentally.
Thank You.

I was beginning to think that I was the only one who thinks this loss falls more no Ozzie's shoulders than it does on Munoz.

From the first batter you could see that Munoz wasn't able to keep the ball down, and he was going to have trouble locating all day.

The fact is, Ozzie set the tone for his managerial style in the first game of the season. He overmanaged the pen in that game. He learned that didn't work. Since then he has gone the other extreme. He now undermanages. Sure that'll work with a veteran like Loaiza, but not a KID like munoz. It's just not fair to him.

No other manager in baseball would have let his pitcher, who's making his ML debut, face the same guy twice in an inning, the second time with the bases loaded, after he had already given up a HR to him earlier in the inning. No manager would have a guy to accumulate a line of 3IP 11ER in his ML debut.

Paulwny
06-20-2004, 02:39 PM
It could have something to do with the fact that they do not face MLB quality hitters in the minors.


But then again, what the hell do I know?
Yep, aka Scott Ruffcorn, noone could hit him in the minors, everyone hit him in the majors. Ruffcorn is perhaps the greatest bust of any White Sox pitching prospects. He is the one who finally stopped me from believing all the hype and discount minor league numbers.

Baby Fisk
06-21-2004, 11:42 AM
Anyone else think Munoz looks almost identical to a young Wilson Alvarez in his stature on the mound and his delivery?
I agree.

Wilson Alvarez...why can't we sign pitchers like THAT when they are young?