PDA

View Full Version : Centerfield Solution


infohawk
06-18-2004, 02:59 PM
I know many of you would like to see the Sox acquire Carlos Beltran. While Beltran would certainly be a tremendous and exciting addition to the club, I think there might be another option that makes more sense for the Sox. I recently read an article stating that the Devil Rays may be making Carl Crawford available. Apparently the Phillies are interested. Crawford is quickly emerging as a legitimate lead-off threat who is very adept at stealing bases. So far in 2004, Crawford is hitting .304 with an OBP of .343 and 29 stolen bases in 38 attempts. Over the last seven days, Crawford has an OBP of .433. Crawford has the electrifying speed and raw athleticism that could benefit the team both offensively and defensively. He could easily cover the vast expanse of center field and therefore improve our overall outfield defense. Furthermore, Crawford provides the additional left-handed bat we need. A line-up beginning with Carl Crawford and Willie Harris would place significant pressure on opposing defenses. Uribe could be moved down in the order into a position more condusive to run-producing (I'm assuming that Uribe would play third base). The reason I think that Crawford might be a great option for the Sox is because he is in his third year and is making only $320,000. He is approaching his arbitration years, but he certainly wouldn't be a rental player. If we are going to part with any prospects, I'd prefer not to see the player the Sox acquired walk before next season. I'd also prefer not to send our prospects to a division rival. I'm sure the Devil Rays would be primarily interested in young pitching. If we traded for Crawford, we would most probably still have the prospects necessary to go after an impact starting pitcher. I'm not sure if the same could be said if we traded for Beltran. All this said, I certainly wouldn't be disappointed if the Sox were to acquire Carlos Beltran.

delben91
06-18-2004, 03:00 PM
I would absolutely love for the Sox to get Carl Crawford.

sas1974
06-18-2004, 03:03 PM
I agree that Carl Ca-raw-ford would be a nice addition. I haven't considered him as a possibility. Frankly, I don't know why the frugal D-rays would part w/ someone of his talent and tax bracket.

itsnotrequired
06-18-2004, 03:03 PM
Interesting idea. Lord knows the Sox could use another left-handed bat. When you couple Crawford's "affordability" with JR freeing up salary for KW, could it be possible for the Sox to pick up Crawford and stil have enough wiggle room to get a bigger star?

Flight #24
06-18-2004, 03:04 PM
I know many of you would like to see the Sox acquire Carlos Beltran. While Beltran would certainly be a tremendous and exciting addition to the club, I think there might be another option that makes more sense for the Sox. I recently read an article stating that the Devil Rays may be making Carl Crawford available. Apparently the Phillies are interested. Crawford is quickly emerging as a legitimate lead-off threat who is very adept at stealing bases. So far in 2004, Crawford is hitting .304 with an OBP of .343 and 29 stolen bases in 38 attempts. Over the last seven days, Crawford has an OBP of .433. Crawford has the electrifying speed and raw athleticism that could benefit the team both offensively and defensively. He could easily cover the vast expanse of center field and therefore improve our overall outfield defense. Furthermore, Crawford provides the additional left-handed bat we need. A line-up beginning with Carl Crawford and Willie Harris would place significant pressure on opposing defenses. Uribe could be moved down in the order into a position more condusive to run-producing (I'm assuming that Uribe would play third base). The reason I think that Crawford might be a great option for the Sox is because he is in his third year and is making only $320,000. He is approaching his arbitration years, but he certainly wouldn't be a rental player. If we are going to part with any prospects, I'd prefer not to see the player the Sox acquired walk before next season. I'd also prefer not to send our prospects to a division rival. I'm sure the Devil Rays would be primarily interested in young pitching. If we traded for Crawford, we would most probably still have the prospects necessary to go after an impact starting pitcher. I'm not sure if the same could be said if we traded for Beltran. All this said, I certainly wouldn't be disappointed if the Sox were to acquire Carlos Beltran.
Given financials, I'd actually prefer Crawford to Beltran. However, I can't for the life of me see why the DRays would make CC available - I thought he, Huff, & Baldelli were their offensive cornerstones. Got a link or quote from the article? Not that I doubt you, but I would love to see what they say is the rationale behind trading a young, cheap, awesome OF.

If available, I'd give up one of Reed/Borchard along with pretty much any pitching prospect we have for him.

ndgt10
06-18-2004, 03:06 PM
No way the D-Rays give up Carl Crawford.

ndgt10
06-18-2004, 03:07 PM
If available, I'd give up one of Reed/Borchard along with pretty much any pitching prospect we have for him.
Count me out if we have to give up Reed or Borchard.

Frater Perdurabo
06-18-2004, 03:11 PM
This would be a fantastic move. I've been on the Steve Finley bandwagon but Crawford would be around for a while and allow the Sox to have a very good -- and fast -- leadoff hitter in the event that either Uribe or Harris falls back to Earth (which has been the case during the last several games).

ESPN.com Scouting Report (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6870)

2003 Season
Carl Crawford made pretty big news by stealing 55 bases. But it was what he did to get on base, specifically hitting .306 over the final 80 games, along with his development as a leadoff hitter, that generated more excitement within the organization. Crawford had three hitting streaks of 10 or more games, and he came through when it mattered, hitting .309 with runners in scoring position and a team-best .316 with men in scoring position and two outs.

Hitting
Crawford is a tremendous athlete, and the Rays are refining his skills to make him a successful major leaguer. A midseason adjustment by hitting coach Lee Elia to open up Crawford's stance allowed him to take better swings, make contact on a more consistent basis and make better use of his electrifying speed by hitting the ball on a line or on the ground. Crawford still is prone to stretches where he chases pitches off the plate and gets himself out, though with less frequency than before. He also is improving as a bunter.

Baserunning & Defense
Crawford is so fast that defenses have to adjust to him, creating holes for other Rays to take advantage of. He should produce even more triples as he improves his turn at second base, and he will pile up even more stolen bases as he learns pitchers and improves his jumps. The same athleticism that enables Crawford to be an offensive force gives him the ability to be a plus defensive player. He covers vast amounts of ground in left field and throws well.

2004 Outlook
In manager Lou Piniella's opinion, Crawford has the ability to add a Gold Glove and a batting title to what could be a series of stolen-base crowns. If Crawford can continue the improvement he showed in the second half of 2003, a .300-10-75 showing would be a reasonable goal for 2004, along with 60 stolen bases. There is a chance the Rays could shift Crawford to center field and move Rocco Baldelli to right.


Playing center for the Sox, Crawford would get to lots of balls in the gaps that Rowand and even Harris might not reach. This would help the pitchers as well. Adding left-handed hitting to the top of the order would help as well.

Frater Perdurabo
06-18-2004, 03:13 PM
I'd even consider Reed or LTP as part of a package for Crawford, as either Reed or LTP would become "expendable" with the addition of a long-term OF solution in Crawford. This also would make re-signing Maggs more likely.

Lead off with Crawford, Uribe bats second and Harris can drop to nine to turn over the lineup. With Olivo batting eighth, that's some serious speed on base for boppers like Maggs, Hurt, Lee and Konerko. Maggs and Frank will see more fastballs and the pitchers would be distracted. This lineup could manufacture runs with small ball, bat around with lots of doubles and triples and hit plenty of three-run homers.

If Reed goes, in 2005 Lee becomes expendable as Maggs could move to LF to allow LTP to play right. If LTP goes, Lee again is expendable as Reed could take over in LF. Imagine a lineup with Crawford leading off and Reed batting second. Even if (heaven forbid) Maggs leaves via free-agency, CF would be set for years and the money that would have been spent of Maggs could be used to get more pitching. After a few years, Anderson will be ready and Crawford could move over to left.

Dadawg_77
06-18-2004, 03:14 PM
Given financials, I'd actually prefer Crawford to Beltran. However, I can't for the life of me see why the DRays would make CC available - I thought he, Huff, & Baldelli were their offensive cornerstones. Got a link or quote from the article? Not that I doubt you, but I would love to see what they say is the rationale behind trading a young, cheap, awesome OF.

If available, I'd give up one of Reed/Borchard along with pretty much any pitching prospect we have for him.
Josh Hamilton is still rehab and comes off suspension next year. If he turns it around, he will or should play in front of any of their outfielders. An OF with sub 800 OPS won't cut it, which is what Tampa Bay has and a main reason they suck.

IlliniSox
06-18-2004, 03:14 PM
No way the D-Rays give up Carl Crawford.
Yeah. No way in hell. He's a borderline all-star already in his second full year. I'd love him, but Sweet Lou thinks the guy has a batting title in him before too long. Newsday must be working late on friday.

Dadawg_77
06-18-2004, 03:15 PM
I'd even consider Reed or LTP as part of a package for Crawford.
That is greatly overpaying for Crawford. Reed is a better player and both should continue to develop but I don't see Crawford surpassing Reed.

infohawk
06-18-2004, 03:16 PM
Here is the relevant passage from the article in the Philadelphia Daily News.

[/QUOTE] There is always a trade, of course. There continues to be word in the back channels that Bowa's pal Lou Piniella would make leadoff blur Carl Crawford available. Lou's Devil Rays are making a run and Piniella might settle for Vicente Padilla and Double A slugger Ryan Howard for Crawford. The D-Rays are eager to get exciting Triple A shortstop B.J. Upton installed as their leadoff hitter of the future. Stay tuned.

Here is the link to the entire story.

http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/sports/8952791.htm

Apparently the D-Rays have another viable lead-off hitter for which they would like to make room. Not mentioned in the story is how Crawford is approaching his arbitration years. The D-Rays would like to retain their core players, but they are on a very tight budget. It would seem to make sense that they might let Crawford go to avoid arbitration and instead put the money toward the Baldelli's and Huff's. They also need pitching and Crawford could probably be used to obtain it.

MRKARNO
06-18-2004, 03:16 PM
Crawford probably isnt going anywhere unless we grossly overpay, so let's stop with this pipedream

JDP
06-18-2004, 03:23 PM
It has been noted that Lou Piniella would make leadoff Carl Crawford available as the Devil Rays are attempting to make a run at something significant this year. Lou Piniella has mentioned that a Vicente Padilla and (AA) slugger Ryan Howard for Carl Crawford swap to the Phils would suffice for him. The D-Rays would be interested in such an offer if it were to officially arise, as they are more than willing to bring up BJ Upton and put him in the leadoff role.

On the other hand, the organization has also started the "preliminary" talks with Crawford, Baldelli and Huff in extending them into the future to build around them.

sendimjoey
06-18-2004, 03:41 PM
as the Devil Rays are attempting to make a run at something significant this year.
I know the Devil Rays have been playing better as late (they're up to third place), but the PDN should have printed this part in this color. The D-Rays are still 13 games down in the loss column to the second-place Red Sox, and they're not going anywhere unless they at least pass them.

Flight #24
06-18-2004, 03:42 PM
That is greatly overpaying for Crawford. Reed is a better player and both should continue to develop but I don't see Crawford surpassing Reed.
Crawford's a lot faster than Reed, and plays pretty good D. And he's batting .300 and Piniella supposedly thinks he's a potential BA champ. I like Reed, but I think the slight tradeoff in potential avg and pwoer is offset by the speed factor and the fact that he's a true CF. And they're both pretty cheap.

Crawford's current production is what we hope to get out of Reed. To say Reed is a better player RIGHT NOW is a tough sell.

Dadawg_77
06-18-2004, 03:44 PM
Crawford's a lot faster than Reed, and plays pretty good D. And he's batting .300 and Piniella supposedly thinks he's a potential BA champ. I like Reed, but I think the slight tradeoff in potential avg and pwoer is offset by the speed factor and the fact that he's a true CF. And they're both pretty cheap.

Crawford's current production is what we hope to get out of Reed. To say Reed is a better player RIGHT NOW is a tough sell.
I completely disagree. Speed has some value but no where near the value of OBP and SLG has. Reed will beat Crawford there if he was called up.

Flight #24
06-18-2004, 03:44 PM
There is always a trade, of course. There continues to be word in the back channels that Bowa's pal Lou Piniella would make leadoff blur Carl Crawford available. Lou's Devil Rays are making a run and Piniella might settle for Vicente Padilla and Double A slugger Ryan Howard for Crawford. The D-Rays are eager to get exciting Triple A shortstop B.J. Upton installed as their leadoff hitter of the future. Stay tuned.

Here is the link to the entire story.

http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/sports/8952791.htm

Apparently the D-Rays have another viable lead-off hitter for which they would like to make room. Not mentioned in the story is how Crawford is approaching his arbitration years. The D-Rays would like to retain their core players, but they are on a very tight budget. It would seem to make sense that they might let Crawford go to avoid arbitration and instead put the money toward the Baldelli's and Huff's. They also need pitching and Crawford could probably be used to obtain it.
If there's a shred of truth to that, we should be able to put together a better package. Padilla's nice, but not exactly dominant (and currently injured).

And since Carl would be around for a while, I think we could definitely afford to give up one of LTP/Reed since CC'd effectively take their place (and give us a true CF, not a corner who can play a decent CF).

Frater Perdurabo
06-18-2004, 03:47 PM
That is greatly overpaying for Crawford. Reed is a better player and both should continue to develop but I don't see Crawford surpassing Reed.

I'm not saying give up both Reed AND LTP for Crawford. One of them plus a pitching prospect (Cotts?) should suffice.

However, Crawford already has surpassed anything Reed has done, and he's two months younger than Reed. Don't get me wrong, I love Reed, but he still has not proven anything at the MLB level. Crawford has already proven himself at the MLB level and is still improving.

With all due respect to Reed, I've never heard Reed projected to be a Gold Glove-caliber CF nor have the capability to steal 50 bases with 42 doubles and 25! triples (Crawford is on pace for that this year). Yes, Reed seems to have much better plate discipline and take lots of walks, but is there any guarantee that he'll get that many walks in the majors? Crawford seems to strike out a lot, but it appears that he's made quantum leaps in that department this year.

Again, I'd rather not trade Reed at all, but Crawford is one of the few players for whom I would consider trading Reed.

With his speed -- and more importantly the threat of his speed -- can you imagine what kind of damage Maggs, Hurt, Lee and Paulie could do with Crawford spreading havoc on the basepaths?

Flight #24
06-18-2004, 03:53 PM
I completely disagree. Speed has some value but no where near the value of OBP and SLG has. Reed will beat Crawford there if he was called up.
OK, in AAA, Reed currently sports a .276avg, .343OBP and .783OPS
in the AL, Crawford runs with a .304avg, .343OBPO and .767OPS. He's also got 29SB and plays a better CF than Reed.

Now I'm not saying that Reed's #s won't improve, but I think discounting AAA stats to the majors, even a reasonable improvement will at best match Crawford's current stats. Carl's also not exactly over the hill, so he's not maxed out. And as I noted, he's much more of a true CF whereas Reed's really a corner guy who can play CF.

Frater Perdurabo
06-18-2004, 03:55 PM
Josh Hamilton is still rehab and comes off suspension next year. If he turns it around, he will or should play in front of any of their outfielders. An OF with sub 800 OPS won't cut it, which is what Tampa Bay has and a main reason they suck.

The main reason they suck is that they have no one to drive in Crawford when he gets on base, steals second and then steals third. Imagine how many runs he would score with Uribe, Maggs, Hurt and Lee batting behind him.

If the D-Rays are planning to deploy Josh Hamilton in the OF, (making Crawford expendable) then perhaps they wouldn't want Reed or LTP anyway. I'd be willing to part with any pitching prospects in the minors to make a deal for Crawford, because eventually it would make Lee expendable for pitching when Reed comes up to play left, his projected position anyway. Can you imagine a lineup with Crawford followed by Reed? Crawford would be on third with a 2-0 count to Reed, with Maggs and Frank on deck. Uribe and Harris would be the best #8 and #9 hitters in the majors, and the Sox would be the best defensive team --with the best speed -- up the middle in the American League. The Sox pitchers would be so much better with Crawford chasing down and snagging fly balls in the gaps as well.

Frater Perdurabo
06-18-2004, 03:56 PM
OK, in AAA, Reed currently sports a .276avg, .343OBP and .783OPS
in the AL, Crawford runs with a .304avg, .343OBPO and .767OPS. He's also got 29SB and plays a better CF than Reed.

Now I'm not saying that Reed's #s won't improve, but I think discounting AAA stats to the majors, even a reasonable improvement will at best match Crawford's current stats. Carl's also not exactly over the hill, so he's not maxed out. And as I noted, he's much more of a true CF whereas Reed's really a corner guy who can play CF.

Even more impressive is that Crawford is two months younger than Reed! He won't be 23 until August 5!

Dadawg_77
06-18-2004, 03:57 PM
I'm not saying give up both Reed AND LTP for Crawford. One of them plus a pitching prospect (Cotts?) should suffice.

However, Crawford already has surpassed anything Reed has done, and he's two months younger than Reed. Don't get me wrong, I love Reed, but he still has not proven anything at the MLB level. Crawford has already proven himself at the MLB level and is still improving.

With all due respect to Reed, I've never heard Reed projected to be a Gold Glove-caliber CF nor have the capability to steal 50 bases with 42 doubles and 25! triples (Crawford is on pace for that this year). Yes, Reed seems to have much better plate discipline and take lots of walks, but is there any guarantee that he'll get that many walks in the majors? Crawford seems to strike out a lot, but it appears that he's made quantum leaps in that department this year.

Again, I'd rather not trade Reed at all, but Crawford is one of the few players for whom I would consider trading Reed.

With his speed -- and more importantly the threat of his speed -- can you imagine what kind of damage Maggs, Hurt, Lee and Paulie could do with Crawford spreading havoc on the basepaths?
Crawford barely broke .300 OBP last year, while young, that is wretched. I don't care what type of speed you have if you can't get on base it is useless. So its hard to imagine the havoc since it is somewhat hard to imagine Crawford on base. So far this year he is at .348 which is very poor for a leadoff man and average for a bottom of the lineup hitter. There is no question Crawford will continue to develop but I think Reed is surpassed him and will always be a better player.

Reed hit .400 in AA last year, when discounted to become a major league equivalent, his average is better the Crawford's OBP. Walking ability in the minors translates very well into walking ability in the majors.

If you trade Reed for Crawford, it will become a deal you will live to regret.

Frater Perdurabo
06-18-2004, 03:58 PM
Carl Crawford playing CF and leading off for the Sox, plus another starting pitcher, makes the Sox a serious World Series contender. Book it.

Flight #24
06-18-2004, 04:02 PM
. Can you imagine a lineup with Crawford followed by Reed? Crawford would be on third with a 2-0 count to Reed, with Maggs and Frank on deck. Uribe and Harris would be the best #8 and #9 hitters in the majors, and the Sox would be the best defensive team --with the best speed -- up the middle in the American League. The Sox pitchers would be so much better with Crawford chasing down and snagging fly balls in the gaps as well.http://www.animated-gifs.co.uk/Simpsons/Homer_Simpson/homrsani.gif Woo-hoo!!

Frater Perdurabo
06-18-2004, 04:06 PM
If you trade Reed for Crawford, it will become a deal you will live to regret.

I don't disagree about Reed. I think he will be an excellent player. But Crawford already is an excellent player and he too is improving. He has better tools than Reed. The only thing he seems to lack is taking walks. That can be fixed.

Besides, if the Rays want to make room for Hamilton, they may not even want an outfielder like Reed or Borchard. So, the Sox should have the pitching prospects to get this deal done, if Crawford really is available, because for 2005 (the soonest any Sox pitching prospect would be ready to contribute), Lee could be traded as part of a package for a major league starting pitcher. Then the Sox would have an outfield of Reed, Crawford and Maggs. Crawford leads off with Reed batting second and Maggs third. Frank and Paulie would lead the league in RBI. Uribe and Harris would be the best #8 and #9 hitters in the majors as well. LTP would be expendable as well in a trade for a starting pitcher this year (Sheets?).

My goodness, the Sox could be a favorite for the Series if they make this pipedream deal now, and would be well-positioned with both players and payroll flexibility for the next several years.

Flight #24
06-18-2004, 04:21 PM
Crawford barely broke .300 OBP last year, while young, that is wretched. I don't care what type of speed you have if you can't get on base it is useless. So its hard to imagine the havoc since it is somewhat hard to imagine Crawford on base. So far this year he is at .348 which is very poor for a leadoff man and average for a bottom of the lineup hitter. There is no question Crawford will continue to develop but I think Reed is surpassed him and will always be a better player.

Reed hit .400 in AA last year, when discounted to become a major league equivalent, his average is better the Crawford's OBP. Walking ability in the minors translates very well into walking ability in the majors.

If you trade Reed for Crawford, it will become a deal you will live to regret.
In theory, I agree with your OBP argument, but Crawford's improved his every year in his short career, and he was brought up early. Reed's done well in the minors, but has not proven anything in the majors (although he hasn't had the opporutnity).

I'll take the guy who's shown that he's at least a decent MLB player and who has shown the ability to improve at the MLB level instead of the guy that like any top prospect, has as much chance of flopping in the bigs as being a star. I don't think it's unrealistic for CC to end up with a .370+OBP and an 800OPS while playing great D and creating havoc on the base paths.

thepaulbowski
06-18-2004, 04:22 PM
Carl Crawford playing CF and leading off for the Sox, plus another starting pitcher, makes the Sox a serious World Series contender. Book it.

As much as I think this should all be in deep pink I would give Reed or LTP up for Crawford. Crawford is proving his worth at the major league level, Reed could be LTP version 2.0, you never know. The Sox need to do something to make a serious run.

lowesox
06-18-2004, 04:25 PM
I think Crawford would be a killer pickup. For those who say they wouldn't give up Reed, why not? Crawfod is electric. The kind of guy who steals base like crazy. I love that. Personally, I'd be pleasantly surprised if Reeds ends up being as good as Crawford - so yeah, I'd trade them straight up.

That said, I would only deal for Crawford if we can get a front of the line rotations first. This team desperately needs one, especially since Garland and Shoenweiss both seem to be fading a bit after good starts. So I'd make sure that we have the prospects required to bring in a pitcher first. Although, for Crawford and an Ace pitcher, I'd be willing to trade both Reed and Borchard before the deadline.

akingamongstmen
06-18-2004, 04:26 PM
I don't disagree about Reed. I think he will be an excellent player. But Crawford already is an excellent player and he too is improving. He has better tools than Reed. The only thing he seems to lack is taking walks. That can be fixed.

Besides, if the Rays want to make room for Hamilton, they may not even want an outfielder like Reed or Borchard. So, the Sox should have the pitching prospects to get this deal done, if Crawford really is available, because for 2005 (the soonest any Sox pitching prospect would be ready to contribute), Lee could be traded as part of a package for a major league starting pitcher. Then the Sox would have an outfield of Reed, Crawford and Maggs. Crawford leads off with Reed batting second and Maggs third. Frank and Paulie would lead the league in RBI. Uribe and Harris would be the best #8 and #9 hitters in the majors as well. LTP would be expendable as well in a trade for a starting pitcher this year (Sheets?).

My goodness, the Sox could be a favorite for the Series if they make this pipedream deal now, and would be well-positioned with both players and payroll flexibility for the next several years.
Wow. That's quite the pipe dream, now isn't it? There is NO WAY that the D-Rays are giving up a phenomenal athelete like Crawford when he's making next to nothing. I repeat...NO WAY. Plus, the Ben Sheets stuff needs to stop. Unless KW has some incriminating photos of the Brewers' GM (maybe one with him wearing an Al Qaeda T-shirt while he's grilling brats in his back yard)...then maybe something could happen. This entire thread needs to be in deep pink.

eurotrash35
06-18-2004, 04:35 PM
sorry if this is a stupid question, but could somebody clue me in on who LTP is?

Frater Perdurabo
06-18-2004, 04:37 PM
Wow. That's quite the pipe dream, now isn't it? There is NO WAY that the D-Rays are giving up a phenomenal athelete like Crawford when he's making next to nothing. I repeat...NO WAY. Plus, the Ben Sheets stuff needs to stop. Unless KW has some incriminating photos of the Brewers' GM (maybe one with him wearing an Al Qaeda T-shirt while he's grilling brats in his back yard)...then maybe something could happen. This entire thread needs to be in deep pink.

Maybe it is a deep pink fantasy, but I was just arguing that I would make a deal for Crawford to include Reed if the Rays would agree, that they may not have to give up Reed, and that such a deal would make the Sox significantly better.

Frater Perdurabo
06-18-2004, 04:37 PM
sorry if this is a stupid question, but could somebody clue me in on who LTP is?

Joe Borchard. Allegedly he has "Light Tower Power."

mdep524
06-18-2004, 04:44 PM
The main reason they suck is that they have no one to drive in Crawford when he gets on base, steals second and then steals third. Imagine how many runs he would score with Uribe, Maggs, Hurt and Lee batting behind him.

If the D-Rays are planning to deploy Josh Hamilton in the OF, (making Crawford expendable) then perhaps they wouldn't want Reed or LTP anyway. I'd be willing to part with any pitching prospects in the minors to make a deal for Crawford, because eventually it would make Lee expendable for pitching when Reed comes up to play left, his projected position anyway. Can you imagine a lineup with Crawford followed by Reed? Crawford would be on third with a 2-0 count to Reed, with Maggs and Frank on deck. Uribe and Harris would be the best #8 and #9 hitters in the majors, and the Sox would be the best defensive team --with the best speed -- up the middle in the American League. The Sox pitchers would be so much better with Crawford chasing down and snagging fly balls in the gaps as well.
This sounds GREAT to me! And when you look at it realistically, it doesn't have to be in deep pink.
:)

eurotrash35
06-18-2004, 04:56 PM
Joe Borchard. Allegedly he has "Light Tower Power."
thanks :smile:

OurBitchinMinny
06-18-2004, 04:57 PM
That is greatly overpaying for Crawford. Reed is a better player and both should continue to develop but I don't see Crawford surpassing Reed.

I may be wrong in the long run, but there is no way right now you can say reed is better than crawford. Crawford is gonna be a star and I dont think reed is. Plus crawford is in the majors and last I checked reed was under .300 in AAA. I dont think reed should be untouchable at this point.

Dadawg_77
06-18-2004, 05:04 PM
I think Crawford would be a killer pickup. For those who say they wouldn't give up Reed, why not? Crawfod is electric. The kind of guy who steals base like crazy. I love that. Personally, I'd be pleasantly surprised if Reeds ends up being as good as Crawford - so yeah, I'd trade them straight up.

That said, I would only deal for Crawford if we can get a front of the line rotations first. This team desperately needs one, especially since Garland and Shoenweiss both seem to be fading a bit after good starts. So I'd make sure that we have the prospects required to bring in a pitcher first. Although, for Crawford and an Ace pitcher, I'd be willing to trade both Reed and Borchard before the deadline.
Personally I don't see Crawford higher then .320/.360/.390 hitter. Reed I see as a .300/.400/.500 hitter, thus I rather have Reed.

jabrch
06-18-2004, 05:14 PM
Is this where someone starts telling us his OPS is too low? (He's a leadoff hitter - who the F* cares?) Or is this where we hear he doesn't walk enough? (young kid is improving) Or do we hear that his stats in the minors were terrible?)

Crawford can lead off. My question is how good of a CF can he be? He hasn't played the position much at all in the majors.

Dadawg_77
06-18-2004, 05:36 PM
Is this where someone starts telling us his OPS is too low? (He's a leadoff hitter - who the F* cares?) Or is this where we hear he doesn't walk enough? (young kid is improving) Or do we hear that his stats in the minors were terrible?)

Crawford can lead off. My question is how good of a CF can he be? He hasn't played the position much at all in the majors.Crawford isn't a good leadoff hitter, he doesn't get on base enough. He could become one, but I think he is more a back of a lineup hitter. His speed will dissipate over the years, as it is the first thing to go. I know you want too
(see attached image) but you are wrong. If a leadoff man doesn't get on base, he is useless.

Flight #24
06-18-2004, 06:16 PM
His speed will dissipate over the years, as it is the first thing to go.
I'm sorry DD77 - but this is about the most ludicrous thing I've heard in a while. While it's true that speed is the first thing to go, CC's 23, not exactly at the point where he'll start losing speed. That won't happen for at least 4-5 years (and I'd bet longer), and projecting a guy out farther than that is tough to do in most cases.

jabrch
06-18-2004, 06:39 PM
That won't happen for at least 4-5 years (and I'd bet longer), and projecting a guy out farther than that is tough to do in most cases.
And frankly, I am not concerned about anything outside of the next year or two Flight. That said, I don't know that I want to bench Harris either - so unless this is being done to move Harris to 2B and Uribe to SS or 3B in place of Manos (free up salary in a trade) or Crede (but I am not ready to write him off yet), I don't necesarily think CF is a spot of major need. I'd rather focus on SP.

However, the arguements against a guy like Crawford, as you pointed out, are fairly weak. They are based on the concept that you can accurately predict his stats to be mediocre based on his minor league and his first 2-3 years of major league experience and that he is not a .300 hitter and that he will regress, rather than continue to progress. They put more weight in the past and in projections based on them than in the current production today. Don't argue with 'em Flight. You won't change their mind.

Flight #24
06-18-2004, 07:14 PM
They put more weight in the past and in projections based on them than in the current production today. Don't argue with 'em Flight. You won't change their mind.
Don't forget the weight put into the sterling record of guys with minor league success becoming ML stars!

Regardless, I see this with less chance of happening than us getting Sheets...which ain't happ'nin'.

Philo-Sox-er
06-19-2004, 08:47 AM
Given financials, I'd actually prefer Crawford to Beltran. However, I can't for the life of me see why the DRays would make CC available - I thought he, Huff, & Baldelli were their offensive cornerstones. Got a link or quote from the article? Not that I doubt you, but I would love to see what they say is the rationale behind trading a young, cheap, awesome OF.

If available, I'd give up one of Reed/Borchard along with pretty much any pitching prospect we have for him. Well, the D-Rays have one of the best stocked minor league systems in baseball--including Delmon Young, Dmitri's younger brother who is 19 and tearing up minor league ball right now. They will have a log jam in the outfield and can afford to trade some of that depth. Sweet Lou wants to win sooner (he promised to not finish last or under .500 this year...), as opposed to later and hence if they were to deal C.C. I'd expect that they'd want someone to contribute now, not a prospect--definately not an outfield prospect either. So I am not certain what the Sox would give up, except maybe Valentin?

Philo-Sox-er
06-19-2004, 09:04 AM
Hamilton is not the guy the Rays are eyeing. Here are some of their top outfield prospects: Delomon Young (corner outfielder--Baldelli will play CF); Joey Gathright (See comments below); Wes Bankston; and Jonny Gomes.


Gathright is projected as starting CF as soon as 2005:


Gathright began the year with Bakersfield in the California League but earned a promotion to Double-A after hitting .324 with 57 stolen bases. He was even hotter in Orlando, where he posted a .376 average and 12 more steals in 22 games before a dislocated shoulder ended his season. Gathright is a gifted athlete with the kind of foot speed -- his 69 steals were the fifth-highest total throughout the minors -- that enables him to impact the game on the basepaths and in the field. He rehabbed his shoulder relentlessly in St. Petersburg and should be ready to go for Spring Training. The 32nd-round draft pick in 2001 should head to Montgomery for some more Double-A seasoning, but could be ready to step in as the Devil Rays' leadoff man by 2005.

He has more speed than C.C.; hence making C.C. expendable.

I'd love to see the Sox get C.C. and keep Reed and LTP. The D-Rays will want some veteran presence (Valentin?) and pitching (Rauch?)...

Frater Perdurabo
06-19-2004, 10:00 AM
Hamilton is not the guy the Rays are eyeing. Here are some of their top outfield prospects: Delomon Young (corner outfielder--Baldelli will play CF); Joey Gathright (See comments below); Wes Bankston; and Jonny Gomes.


Gathright is projected as starting CF as soon as 2005:


He has more speed than C.C.; hence making C.C. expendable.

I'd love to see the Sox get C.C. and keep Reed and LTP. The D-Rays will want some veteran presence (Valentin?) and pitching (Rauch?)...
I would do that deal (Valentin and Rauch for Crawford) in a heartbeat. I'd also deal Lee straight up for Crawford, although I don't know if they want another LF. It seems that the Sox could make a deal for whatever the Rays would need in return, unless they expect the Sox to grossly overpay (Maggs, Honel and Cotts, for example) for Crawford, in which case of course it is not worth it. I hope Kenny at least is exploring the availability of Crawford. Would they take Konerko and a pitching prospect in return in order to try to win now?

Dadawg_77
06-19-2004, 11:53 AM
And frankly, I am not concerned about anything outside of the next year or two Flight. That said, I don't know that I want to bench Harris either - so unless this is being done to move Harris to 2B and Uribe to SS or 3B in place of Manos (free up salary in a trade) or Crede (but I am not ready to write him off yet), I don't necesarily think CF is a spot of major need. I'd rather focus on SP.

However, the arguements against a guy like Crawford, as you pointed out, are fairly weak. They are based on the concept that you can accurately predict his stats to be mediocre based on his minor league and his first 2-3 years of major league experience and that he is not a .300 hitter and that he will regress, rather than continue to progress. They put more weight in the past and in projections based on them than in the current production today. Don't argue with 'em Flight. You won't change their mind.
Well with in five years, we will see how wrong you are. Reed will be a better player then Crawford next year and following that.

johnny_mostil
06-19-2004, 12:21 PM
I may be wrong in the long run, but there is no way right now you can say reed is better than crawford. Crawford is gonna be a star and I dont think reed is. Plus crawford is in the majors and last I checked reed was under .300 in AAA. I dont think reed should be untouchable at this point.
I do. AAA statistics are subject to several powerful illusions, not the least of which is the International League's tough hitting conditions. Another is the tendency of coaches to tweak approaches dramatically and tell players to work on weak points of their game in a way they just never do in the majors. A minor league pitcher, for example, might throw his worst pitch 30 times in a game to work on it and get torched. Batters do the same kinds of things. Finally, don't forget the persistent rumors that he's playing hurt.

And don't forget that Reed just turned 23 this week. He could play for 15 years in the majors. Sounds like a Brock-Broglio situation if I ever saw one.

ndgt10
06-19-2004, 12:57 PM
I'd also deal Lee straight up for Crawford, although I don't know if they want another LF.
No way I'd trade Lee straight up for Crawford. If we were going to trade Lee, I would hope that he would be part of a bigger deal for a great player.

Flight #24
06-19-2004, 02:44 PM
And don't forget that Reed just turned 23 this week. He could play for 15 years in the majors. Sounds like a Brock-Broglio situation if I ever saw one.
IIRC, Crawford's actually a bit younger than Reed, and was called up early. So whereas jeremy's development has been in the minors, CC's has been in the bigs. Another factor that would lead me to believe that he'll only improve on the #s he's currently got, whereas Reed just hasn't proven that he can translate his AAA & more to the point - AA success to the bigs.

Reed: potential
Crawford: proven ability + potential.

jabrch
06-19-2004, 07:06 PM
I do. AAA statistics are subject to several powerful illusions, not the least of which is the International League's tough hitting conditions.

And don't forget that Reed just turned 23 this week. He could play for 15 years in the majors. Sounds like a Brock-Broglio situation if I ever saw one.

First off, if you think the IL has tough hitting conditions, how can you possibly compare that to the tough hitting conditions of having to face Martinez, Schilling, Vazquez, Loaiza, Buehrle, etc, etc.

Second, this has nothing to do with Brock for Broglio - this is a trade tomorrow for today. This is, if you want to compare it to a Cubs trade, Hall/Carter for Sutcliffe. This is putting a leadoff hitter in our lineup at the expense of a prospect who MAY some day be a good player. It's funny - people can project Crawford to suck, based on his minor league numbers and his lack of walks, but disregarding his MLB successes meanwhile they can say Reed is likely going be a star without ever seeing a MLB AB.

Now I am not proposing Reed for Crawford, but I am not saying we shouldn't consider it if it were offered. Or that we shouldn't consider trading Reed in the right deal.

I don't think CF/Leadoff is our #1 need right now. I am very happy with Harris in those roles. But I don't get why we shouldn't consider trading Reed.

jabrch
06-19-2004, 07:11 PM
IIRC, Crawford's actually a bit younger than Reed, and was called up early. So whereas jeremy's development has been in the minors, CC's has been in the bigs. Another factor that would lead me to believe that he'll only improve on the #s he's currently got, whereas Reed just hasn't proven that he can translate his AAA & more to the point - AA success to the bigs.

Reed: potential
Crawford: proven ability + potential.
Nope - Crawford doesn't walk enough. He can't be good. Ignore his .300 average - that isn't important. Ignore his .280 MLB career avg - he is going to regress to his minor league numbers. Ignore his 30 sb already this year - those aren't important. Ignore the fact that all this has been done in TAMPA, without much a team.