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View Full Version : Why trade El Caballo?


PaleHoseGeorge
09-22-2001, 01:06 PM
I've read several posts suggesting we should trade away Carlos Lee but I'm not sure exactly why.

What has El Caballo done to now give up on him?

Bmr31
09-22-2001, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I've read several posts suggesting we should trade away Carlos Lee but I'm not sure exactly why.

What has El Caballo done to now give up on him?


He went in a slump. Fairweather fans turn on players and teams very quickly. Carlos has a great upside, and he should not be traded.

Paulwny
09-22-2001, 01:23 PM
Many don't like his "D" but are willing to live with >30 errors at ss, I don't get it.

Bmr31
09-22-2001, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Many don't like his "D" but are willing to live with >30 errors at ss, I don't get it.


LOL well said......

oldcomiskey
09-22-2001, 01:38 PM
Ill be glad to explain the ss situation to you--- Manos is more of a team player than Royce will ever be...and second---Manos is more of a MAN than Clayton will ever be---and third I hate Royce Clayton because he takes ABs away from last years hero Herb Perry

Paulwny
09-22-2001, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
Ill be glad to explain the ss situation to you--- Manos is more of a team player than Royce will ever be...and second---Manos is more of a MAN than Clayton will ever be---and third I hate Royce Clayton because he takes ABs away from last years hero Herb Perry

What's that have to do with trading Lee.

oldcomiskey
09-22-2001, 01:58 PM
Im not anti-caballo by any means but you have to make room for rowand and leifer--and Caballo is a highly marketable player. We cant just be stand pat and blame this season on injuries

Paulwny
09-22-2001, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
Im not anti-caballo by any means but you have to make room for rowand and leifer--and Caballo is a highly marketable player. We cant just be stand pat and blame this season on injuries

Package Clayton and Durham, see what ss you can get, put Valentin at 2nd, put Liefer, Crede or Perry at 3rd (righty-lefty match ups) and keep Lee.

oldcomiskey
09-22-2001, 02:48 PM
got no problem with that but who needs a 2b and ss thats got any pitching==Boston maybe---but to get a good starter youll have to include Lee or Konerko

LongDistanceFan
09-22-2001, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny


Package Clayton and Durham, see what ss you can get, put Valentin at 2nd, put Liefer, Crede or Perry at 3rd (righty-lefty match ups) and keep Lee. a lot of teams could use durham, but who would want clayton?

LongDistanceFan
09-22-2001, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I've read several posts suggesting we should trade away Carlos Lee but I'm not sure exactly why.

What has El Caballo done to now give up on him? I am by all means not a fair weather fan. I see what lee can bring to the team via a trade. Young prospects that can shore up glaring holes that we have in the system. A cat and SS are needed. Lee can be that person who can bring in one or both prospects, but i doubt that any team has both kind of prospects in the minors.

Second, with lee gone, we can open a position up for what is a crowded OF. Lee is a good talent, i will not counter that, but what are we to do with all the DH'ers we have?

PaleHoseGeorge
09-22-2001, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
Second, with lee gone, we can open a position up for what is a crowded OF. Lee is a good talent, i will not counter that, but what are we to do with all the DH'ers we have?

Actually, I think our DH problems aren't complicated at all. Frank Thomas plays there for the rest of this career because nobody even comes close to him offensively.

Anybody who can't wear a glove becomes expendable. The question remains, should Lee be the one that goes?

PaleHoseGeorge
09-22-2001, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Many don't like his "D" but are willing to live with >30 errors at ss, I don't get it.

Wow. Mind if I parry?

Are you equating good defense with errors committed?

Just wondering.

doublem23
09-22-2001, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Actually, I think our DH problems aren't complicated at all. Frank Thomas plays there for the rest of this career because nobody even comes close to him offensively.

Anybody who can't wear a glove becomes expendable. The question remains, should Lee be the one that goes?

Well, said...

I think we should keep Lee because he could have a MONSTER bat in 1-2 years. For Christ's sake, he's only like 24 years old!

I think we should start giving him some of Sammy's magical "Flinstone chewable vitamins."

doublem23
09-22-2001, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Wow. Mind if I parry?

Are you equating good defense with errors committed?

Just wondering.

Of, course, PHG...

Errors and fielding percentage are the tell-all stats to how good a player is defensively.... LOL....

:)

Jjav829
09-22-2001, 05:58 PM
Are you equating good defense with errors committed?

I think I'll join in this conversation. I don't think errors are the only indication of whether someone is good defensively. But without a low amount of errors and decent fielding percentage you sure can't make an arguement that someone is a good defender.

FarWestChicago
09-22-2001, 06:00 PM
I think we should start giving him some of Sammy's magical "Flinstone chewable vitamins."
:shammy

I have no idea what you are talking about.

:moron

That's right, Sammy. You don't even know how to spell Nandrolone.

Paulwny
09-22-2001, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Wow. Mind if I parry?

Are you equating good defense with errors committed?

Just wondering.

Not really, I realize there's more to outfield "D" then just errors, getting to a ball , quickness charging a ball, etc. My question is to the many posters who want Lee traded because his "D" is unsettling to a young staff but for some reason don't think >30 errors at short are unsettling.
I'm not a Clayton fan, package him and RAY.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-22-2001, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Not really, I realize there's more to outfield "D" then just errors, getting to a ball , quickness charging a ball, etc. My question is to the many posters who want Lee traded because his "D" is unsettling to a young staff but for some reason don't think >30 errors at short are unsettling.
I'm not a Clayton fan, package him and RAY.

Okay, I can see that. I think the problem with Lee isn't errors as much as his positioning, his inability to cover ground, and his lack of improvement handling pop flies the past two years. He really ought to be doing better.

Him standing with his hands in the air in the Hump Dome while the ball landed in the seats behind him really sums it up.

Personally, I would stick him at first base. He's too good to trade, though.

Paulwny
09-22-2001, 07:27 PM
Is it our organization, is it all organization , or are the yankmes different? Knoblauch is sent to left fied, for 2hrs a day for an entire week a coach hits to him every type of fly ball and line drive to acquaint him with the position. I heard this on their broadcasts. Soriano is switched to 2nd base and the same training is done with him. Jeter stays out with him to get a better feel for DP's.
What do we use OJT?

CerberusWG
09-22-2001, 07:47 PM
I really think we should trade Carlos. Not just because of this year, but his defensive skills SHOULD have improved, like PHG said. He does not have a good arm, and does not cover ground well at all. Ive seen him take some absolutley horrible routes, and drop routine flyballs which should be caught. I guess I'd just rather have Liefer out in LF.

MikeKreevich
09-22-2001, 08:10 PM
Bottom line, Carlos must improve his defence. Sox management must not be stressing it strongly enough.

GASHWOUND
09-22-2001, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Many don't like his "D" but are willing to live with >30 errors at ss, I don't get it.

Exactly. He is sluping for the first time in his young career and people want to give him the boot. The guy is a natural hitter and has MVP capabilities.

Rowand doesn't. Lee has always hit over .300 in the minors, .between .290 and .300 in the big leagues and shows that he can make solid plays in left. ray Durham syndrome? Perhaps, but this guy is the cornerstone of this organization and trading him for unproven pitching will make us regret the move.
The guy just look dangerous and intimidating at the plate. Thats a sign of a future GREAT hitter.

LongDistanceFan
09-22-2001, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Personally, I would stick him at first base. He's too good to trade, though. what would you do with the crowded OF with jeff, rowand, mags, chris, and even the young borchard.

With lee going to 1base, that means trade paulie right?

PaleHoseGeorge
09-22-2001, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
With lee going to 1base, that means trade paulie right?

Probably. Given a choice between trading Lee or trading Konerko, I'll take my chances El Caballo learns to take a walk.

Randar68
09-22-2001, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by CerberusWG
He does not have a good arm


*****!!! He has one of the best arms from LF to 2B or 3B in all of baseball, and is accurate. No, he's not a RF'er, but he has a very above avergae arm IMO....can't argue about range, or looking like a caveman playing flyballs. He hasn't figured out how to run to a spot, he just runs with/to the ball....

Randar68
09-22-2001, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
what would you do with the crowded OF with jeff, rowand, mags, chris, and even the young borchard.

With lee going to 1base, that means trade paulie right?

Bottom line, ou don't trade a guy who's considered by several scouts to be one of the most promising young hitters in the game....let alone to make room for Rowand or Liefer...

FarWestChicago
09-22-2001, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Bottom line, ou don't trade a guy who's considered by several scouts to be one of the most promising young hitters in the game....let alone to make room for Rowand or Liefer... Thank you for saying that.

LongDistanceFan
09-22-2001, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Bottom line, ou don't trade a guy who's considered by several scouts to be one of the most promising young hitters in the game....let alone to make room for Rowand or Liefer... ok....... i can accept that. I may not agree with it all, but i see paulie as a valuable assest in dugout and has shown some leadership quality.

What is your take on jeff offensive game?

I am not for trading rowand or chris, i think we can get something for him. I just hate to lose paulie.



btw fwc, i can't get the spell checker to work again.....

FarWestChicago
09-22-2001, 09:59 PM
btw fwc, i can't get the spell checker to work again..... Check your URL. It's working fine. Your domain must be www.whitesoxinteractive.com. It can't be whitesoxinteractive.com or the IP.

LongDistanceFan
09-22-2001, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Check your URL. It's working fine. Your domain must be www.whitesoxinteractive.com. It can't be whitesoxinteractive.com or the IP. oh well, i tried everything and still no results............. must be me......... ok and thanks

FarWestChicago
09-22-2001, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
oh well, i tried everything and still no results............. must be me......... ok and thanks You entered the board through this URL http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/ and it didn't work?

Randar68
09-22-2001, 10:17 PM
I am not for trading rowand or chris, i think we can get something for him. I just hate to lose paulie.

Well, personally, I'm not the biggest fan of trading either Lee or Konerko. Konerko has been one of the best players, on and off the field this year and last. He's average defensively (which for our team, means outstanding). Liefer and Rowand can both bring some talent if packaged with a Durham-type player. Personally, I think it's going to take a Lee or Konerko to get a SS or catcher, they don't come cheap, as those 2 positions are 2 of the most in-demand in baseball.

Lee at first base, while I think he would be passable, scares me. Konerko is probably the best in the game in starting the 3-6-3 DP, and he's improved going to his left. Remember, he was drafted as a catcher, so It's not like he's played 1B forever.

Lee is a very proud man, and his follies in the field have likely been carried over to the plate.


One other comment, IMO, Konerko needs to get married or have a baby or something. He takes every at-bat personally and I think he let's it bother him throughout a game. He needs some perspective and to be on more of an even keel.




again, I will repeat, you don't trade a guy as productive as Konerko or as high-ceiling as Lee just to make room for a Rowand or Liefer.

Paulwny
09-23-2001, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by Randar68



One other comment, IMO, Konerko needs to get married or have a baby or something. He takes every at-bat personally and I think he let's it bother him throughout a game. He needs some perspective and to be on more of an even keel.




again, I will repeat, you don't trade a guy as productive as Konerko or as high-ceiling as Lee just to make room for a Rowand or Liefer.


Ranting and raving worked for Paul O'Neil for a long time.
Totally agree with you about Konerko and Lee.

LongDistanceFan
09-23-2001, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by Randar68



Lee at first base, while I think he would be passable, scares me. Konerko is probably the best in the game in starting the 3-6-3 DP, and he's improved going to his left. Remember, he was drafted as a catcher, so It's not like he's played 1B forever.

again, I will repeat, you don't trade a guy as productive as Konerko or as high-ceiling as Lee just to make room for a Rowand or Liefer. What do you think of jeff offensive game? Can he be productive as a starter?

Lee at 1 base is scary and i agree with you, but we already have a full-time dh in frank, so what are we to do with lee, keep him in the OF and put Borchard in CF when he is ready?

Rowand, in my gut feeling is not a starter, chris, is bye bye. The cat we have now are nothing but a stop gap fixture, can we live with what we have now? At ss i hope this kid we drafted last yr is the real deal as the hype is, besides him, we don't have nothing. This is a desperate situation but Jose can play another yr or 2. But what happen then. Ray durham, is a player by himself that can bring in a prospect or 2.

34 Inch Stick
09-24-2001, 01:16 PM
I don't think you trade Lee to make room for Liefer or Rowand. You may want to do it to make room for Borchard. I always am wary about can't miss prospects but it sounds like Borchard is really can't miss. If he can play center we only have to trade Singleton or Rowand in the off season... and Durham and Clayton.

Paulwny
09-24-2001, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
[B ... and Durham and Clayton. [/B]

Ah, finally another proponent of trading both Durham and Clayton.