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PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2004, 08:22 PM
Booooooooo!

:angry:

JRIG
06-16-2004, 08:24 PM
Hi. Scott Schoeneweis? This is Earth. Welcome back. We hope you enjoy your stay.

LongLiveFisk
06-16-2004, 08:25 PM
No win, Lee's hit streak over....boo!! :whiner:

I can only pray that Montreal holds on against the Twins so the day won't be a complete loss.

valposoxfan
06-16-2004, 08:27 PM
Hi. Scott Schoeneweis? This is Earth. Welcome back. We hope you enjoy your stay.
Come on. Four runs. Absolutely no run support. It was rough at times, but I think he had a good start. This is a game that we just got owned at the plate. Go get 'em tomorrow.

MRKARNO
06-16-2004, 08:28 PM
If Thomas is not in the lineup in any other game this year save for health problems then Ozzie is a Bleeping Idiot. THis game just proved how essential he is to this team. I really dont credit Pavano all that much. He was good, but we didnt have our best two hitters in Maggs and Thomas and ALomar was there instead of Olivo. It's a much different lineup when you have Thomas, Maggs then Lee instead of just Lee and then the rest.

BigEdWalsh
06-16-2004, 08:28 PM
:corpseball

C'mon Expo's, hang on!!

OurBitchinMinny
06-16-2004, 08:30 PM
If Thomas is not in the lineup in any other game this year save for health problems then Ozzie is a Bleeping Idiot.
Not the reason they lost. Plus he said his foot was sore. Konerko has been pretty solid this year and is a vastly better fielder. A day off could be good for him.

Jjav829
06-16-2004, 08:30 PM
If Thomas is not in the lineup in any other game this year save for health problems then Ozzie is a Bleeping Idiot.
Please, Frank or no Frank, we weren't going to win this game with the way Pavano was dealing. I love how everyone always has to find a reason for the loss. The Sox were playing corpseball, Frank wasn't in the lineup, blah, blah, blah. Pavano was dominant out there! Nothing more to say. Move onto tomorrow and hope Beckett struggles in his first start back.

Win1ForMe
06-16-2004, 08:31 PM
Flaccid.

The loss itself isn't really bad; it's Schoenweiss' performance (or string of) that should be the concern. Getting a starter and another power reliever would seem like priority 1 and 1A.

SoxxoS
06-16-2004, 08:32 PM
The best teams lose 60 games a year. Chalk this one up as "one of those games." Step back from the bridge.

JRIG
06-16-2004, 08:32 PM
Come on. Four runs. Absolutely no run support. It was rough at times, but I think he had a good start. This is a game that we just got owned at the plate. Go get 'em tomorrow.
How about the last 6 starts then? 23 runs allowed in 36 1/3 IP. A 5.70 ERA. 61 baserunners allowed for a 1.68 WHIP.

This is far more indicative of his talents than the beginning of the season.

Nard
06-16-2004, 08:32 PM
At least Lee can stop fretting about the streak and just stand back and swing freely now. Let's hope he continues the success though.

What's up with Willie? I hope this little slump takes less time to break out of than his beginning-of-the-season drawl.

Schoe's had some bad starts but this one was really not bad at all. He could've done better but give the man some freakin' run support. This one was better than his last few...

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2004, 08:32 PM
I smell a fight a brewin'.


:)

Jjav829
06-16-2004, 08:33 PM
I smell a fight a brewin'.


:)An argument for what? Pavano was dominant. Unless we had 9 Barry Bonds in our lineup, we weren't going to win this game.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2004, 08:34 PM
An argument for what? Pavano was dominant. Unless we had 9 Barry Bonds in our lineup, we weren't going to win this game.
Holy Cow! Ease up! I'm joking already!

Yeesh...

:gulp:

OurBitchinMinny
06-16-2004, 08:35 PM
This years interleague schedule really screws the sox IMO. I hate the cubs, but they are a better team than the brewers. Plus the twins miss the marlins and braves who are pretty good teams and get to play the mets and expos. I say give interleague a break for a few years, except for the natural rivalry games. Although that gives the twinkies 6 against the brewers. The sox just have to make it through june within striking distance

dpbyron
06-16-2004, 08:35 PM
Exactly. Pavano was filthy tonight. This game reminds me of the first week of the season when Javier Vazquez shut down the Sox.

Ozzie is already blasting the music in clubhouse. Lets get em tommorrow! :D:

BigEdWalsh
06-16-2004, 08:36 PM
Please, Frank or no Frank, we weren't going to win this game with the way Pavano was dealing. I love how everyone always has to find a reason for the loss. The Sox were playing corpseball, Frank wasn't in the lineup, blah, blah, blah. Pavano was dominant out there! Nothing more to say. Move onto tomorrow and hope Beckett struggles in his first start back.
Nothing wrong with complaining about a loss. We're NOT Cub fans!

JRIG
06-16-2004, 08:36 PM
At least Lee can stop fretting about the streak and just stand back and swing freely now. Let's hope he continues the success though.


I would be a bit concerned with Lee. His hit streak covered up the fact he hasn't been doing anything else well. He's not hitting for power (1 HR last 41 games) and not walking (6 BB last 29 games).

Jjav829
06-16-2004, 08:38 PM
Nothing wrong with complaining about a loss. We're NOT Cub fans!
There's nothing wrong with complaining about a loss, but making up reasons why we lost is ridiculous. There is no shame in just admitting that the other team was flat out better as was the case tonight.

OurBitchinMinny
06-16-2004, 08:39 PM
I would be a bit concerned with Lee. His hit streak covered up the fact he hasn't been doing anything else well. He's not hitting for power (1 HR last 41 games) and not walking (6 BB last 29 games).
He still has hit .380 during the streak. I would like him to hit for more power and maybe that will come now that the streak is over. I just think its amazing he raised his average from .230 to .300+. Now crede needs to try the same thing. And uribe needs to stop swinging out of his shoes at times. Yes he does have some power, but does not need a HR every time. The top two hitters are slumping a little.

Jjav829
06-16-2004, 08:39 PM
I would be a bit concerned with Lee. His hit streak covered up the fact he hasn't been doing anything else well. He's not hitting for power (1 HR last 41 games) and not walking (6 BB last 29 games).
That's part of the reason that I am sort of glad that the hitting streak was snapped. He's really been pressing of late to just get hits. Hopefully now that he doesn't have the pressure of a hitting streak going, he'll be more relaxed at the plate and look to drive the ball more.

Jjav829
06-16-2004, 08:40 PM
Holy Cow! Ease up! I'm joking already!

Yeesh...

:gulp:
I didn't see any teal! :rolleyes: :smile:

MRKARNO
06-16-2004, 08:40 PM
Please, Frank or no Frank, we weren't going to win this game with the way Pavano was dealing. I love how everyone always has to find a reason for the loss. The Sox were playing corpseball, Frank wasn't in the lineup, blah, blah, blah. Pavano was dominant out there! Nothing more to say. Move onto tomorrow and hope Beckett struggles in his first start back.
Well had we Frank I think we would have had at least 1 or two more baserunners. Things might have been different. You cant know but I bet THomas would have at least had some better at bats than Konerko who looked awful almost every time up.

BigEdWalsh
06-16-2004, 08:40 PM
There's nothing wrong with complaining about a loss, but making up reasons why we lost is ridiculous. There is no shame in just admitting that the other team was flat out better as was the case tonight.
True enough. But we've beat better pitchers than Pavano. It's just discouraging to see the Sox so dominated. Oh well, go get 'em tomorrow!

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2004, 08:41 PM
There's nothing wrong with complaining about a loss, but making up reasons why we lost is ridiculous. There is no shame in just admitting that the other team was flat out better as was the case tonight.
Well sure, if you put a line up out there minus Frank Thomas and Magglio Ordonez, and put Sandy behind the plate and Shoney on the mound, naturally we can expect the other team to be better.

<PHG runs like hell for cover>

:)

SoxFan76
06-16-2004, 08:42 PM
My first reaction to this game was that it was "just one of those you are going to lose". HOWEVER, I got to thinking, yesterday was some sort of win. You think they would be able to keep that momentum going. I don't know whether to blame Ozzie or commend McKeon for not letting his team get down. It's just frustrating how inconsistent this team has been on offense and with their pitching. As a result of this off and on play, the Sox have not strung together a big win streak yet this year. (Unless I forgot a stretch this year.) But they also have not had a nasty losing streak, which is good.

OurBitchinMinny
06-16-2004, 08:42 PM
Damn expos are in the process of blowing it. Looks like sox will be back in second

beckett21
06-16-2004, 08:43 PM
Please, Frank or no Frank, we weren't going to win this game with the way Pavano was dealing. I love how everyone always has to find a reason for the loss. The Sox were playing corpseball, Frank wasn't in the lineup, blah, blah, blah. Pavano was dominant out there! Nothing more to say.
Exactly. Give credit where it is due. We were completely and utterly dominated tonight. Tip of the cap to Pavano, go get 'em tomorrow.

Move onto tomorrow and hope Beckett struggles in his first start back.
It's probably in my best interests to just stay off this board tomorrow! :redneck

Just in case anyone questions where my allegiance lies....Let's go SOX!!!

Jjav829
06-16-2004, 08:43 PM
True enough. But we've beat better pitchers than Pavano. It's just discouraging to see the Sox so dominated. Oh well, go get 'em tomorrow!
It's not about how good of a pitcher he is. Sure, we've beaten better pitchers but there are going to be games where you're just going to run into a pitcher that has everything working for him. This was one of those games.

Jjav829
06-16-2004, 08:44 PM
Well sure, if you put a line up out there minus Frank Thomas and Magglio Ordonez, and put Sandy behind the plate and Shoney on the mound, naturally we can expect the other team to be better.

<PHG runs like hell for cover>

:)
True, but everyone looked bad up there tonight. That leads me to believe that it says more about how good Pavano was than how bad our hitters were.

Nard
06-16-2004, 08:45 PM
Well in case you're missing it, Frenchie Jones homered and it's 4-3 Montreal in the 9th... bases loaded 1 out for Guzman.

SEALgep
06-16-2004, 08:45 PM
Well in case you're missing it, Frenchie Jones homered and it's 4-3 Montreal in the 9th... bases loaded 1 out for Guzman.The Expos suck horribly.

BigEdWalsh
06-16-2004, 08:46 PM
It's not about how good of a pitcher he is. Sure, we've beaten better pitchers but there are going to be games where you're just going to run into a pitcher that has everything working for him. This was one of those games.
I agree. And it sucks!!!

OurBitchinMinny
06-16-2004, 08:46 PM
tied up in top 9 north of the border. Damn expos. Sox better sweep them

Nard
06-16-2004, 08:46 PM
Montreal botches an easy double play... Minny ties it up, 2 outs bases loaded.

MRKARNO
06-16-2004, 08:46 PM
Well in case you're missing it, Frenchie Jones homered and it's 4-3 Montreal in the 9th... bases loaded 1 out for Guzman.
Tied at 4

Say hello to second place.

Maybe this was a game that the Twins were definately going to lose?

You just cant think that way. There's almost always a way to win. Tonight included for the Sox

Jjav829
06-16-2004, 08:46 PM
Well had we Frank I think we would have had at least 1 or two more baserunners. Things might have been different. You cant know but I bet THomas would have at least had some better at bats than Konerko who looked awful almost every time up.
Maybe but I don't see one Frank walk making a significant difference in this game. Hell, it wouldn't have surprised me if Pavano broke Frank's streak of reaching base had Frank started.

BigEdWalsh
06-16-2004, 08:50 PM
Maybe but I don't see one Frank walk making a significant difference in this game. Hell, it wouldn't have surprised me if Pavano broke Frank's streak of reaching base had Frank started.
I was a little disappointed that Ozzie didn't pinch hit Frank for either Valentin or Konerko. Nothing was working and you got Frank Thomas on the bench. Use him for crissakes!

MRKARNO
06-16-2004, 08:51 PM
Maybe but I don't see one Frank walk making a significant difference in this game. Hell, it wouldn't have surprised me if Pavano broke Frank's streak of reaching base had Frank started.
But Frank almost certainly would have seen more pitches than Konerko. It might have led to Pavano being pulled earlier and us getting a shot against their bullpen where we might have been able to pull off some magic. You just dont know

BigEdWalsh
06-16-2004, 08:52 PM
Bottom of the ninth, Expos need any old kinda run. :D:

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2004, 08:52 PM
So... double-A callup versus world series MVP tomorrow. Let's get some freakin' run support.I know what a certain somebody would say...

:jerry
"We need to tighten up the defense! I'm playing Julio Ramirez, Royce Clayton, and Mark Johnson. We'll won't score any runs but we'll use our gloves to hold the other team to -1."

:redneck

SEALgep
06-16-2004, 08:53 PM
But Frank almost certainly would have seen more pitches than Konerko. It might have led to Pavano being pulled earlier and us getting a shot against their bullpen where we might have been able to pull off some magic. You just dont knowAnd we could have PK get into last years funk by sidelining him for all interleague games, you just don't know.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2004, 08:56 PM
And we could have PK get into last years funk by sidelining him for all interleague games, you just don't know.
This is called playing to lose. "Royce Clayton might hit better than Jose Valentin, you just don't know."

Oh yes, we do.

Jjav829
06-16-2004, 08:56 PM
But Frank almost certainly would have seen more pitches than Konerko. It might have led to Pavano being pulled earlier and us getting a shot against their bullpen where we might have been able to pull off some magic. You just dont know
Konerko saw 16 pitches. Frank averages 4.24 pitches per plate appearance. Assuming that held, we'd be talking about a pitch. It just wasn't going to happen tonight. Frank Thomas or no Frank Thomas. Magglio Ordonez or no Magglio Ordonez.

kittle42
06-16-2004, 08:56 PM
If Thomas is not in the lineup in any other game this year save for health problems then Ozzie is a Bleeping Idiot. THis game just proved how essential he is to this team. I really dont credit Pavano all that much. He was good, but we didnt have our best two hitters in Maggs and Thomas and ALomar was there instead of Olivo. It's a much different lineup when you have Thomas, Maggs then Lee instead of just Lee and then the rest.
I have heard this type of argument before by fans clad in blue and red.....

chisoxfan79
06-16-2004, 08:57 PM
Bottom of the ninth, Expos need any old kinda run. :D: I think the Expos got their run Quota for the week in tonights game.

RedPinStripes
06-16-2004, 08:57 PM
I would hope Olivo and Frank are in the lineup tomorrow. Magg's injury really shows up in the NL parks. Did i mention i HATE NL ball? Walk the catcher to get to the AL pitcher.......... Bitch ball!

SEALgep
06-16-2004, 08:58 PM
This is called playing to lose. "Royce Clayton might hit better than Jose Valentin, you just don't know."

Oh yes, we do.No it's not. PK has the most rbi's on the team and has been swinging the bat well too. You can hardly compare the two scenerios.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2004, 09:01 PM
You can hardly compare the two scenerios.
I just did.

Kudos to PK and his RBI's. Without somebody getting on base in front of him, it doesn't mean jack.

MRKARNO
06-16-2004, 09:01 PM
I have heard this type of argument before by fans clad in blue and red.....
OK fine, but unlike the Cubs we had the option of putting Frank in the game. It's more about Frank being in the game than Maggs in my opinion. Our lineup without Maggs I wont complain about, but when we put TImo out there instead of Gload, who is a better hitter, and we put Alomar behind the plate in a little under half of the games, we're not putting out the best lineup that we possibly can. Frank is the key to this offense and him not being in the lineup just absolutely kills this team. Whenever you bench a hall of famer who is hitting about .300, gets on base more than any other player in the league and leads the league in homers in favor of a pretty good, but not nearly as good hitter, you're gonna be worse offensively. When Thomas is at first and in the three spot, he seems at home and he hits about as well as he can.

OEO Magglio
06-16-2004, 09:02 PM
No it's not. PK has the most rbi's on the team and has been swinging the bat well too. You can hardly compare the two scenerios.Pavano was just flat out awesome tonight they would have won no matter what. PK has been good but I hate benching frank, you can't bench arguably the best hitter in the al right now it's just not smart.

SEALgep
06-16-2004, 09:02 PM
I just did.

Kudos to PK and his RBI's. Without somebody getting on base in front of him, it doesn't mean jack.Lol, so his rbi's don't mean a thing, but Frank batting third or fourth count more than his?

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2004, 09:05 PM
Lol, so his rbi's don't mean a thing, but Frank batting third or fourth count more than his?
I said nothing of the sort.

Benching your best hitter because "you don't know" the other guy won't hit better than him is playing to lose. That's what I said.

MRKARNO
06-16-2004, 09:05 PM
Pavano was just flat out awesome tonight they would have won no matter what.
I dissagree with this notion that a team is going to win no matter what. I mean, they had a damn good chance of winning this game. We killed their bullpen last night and having Frank in there would have improved our chances of getting to the bullpen. Maybe we only win that game 5 times out of 100, but the Sox werent in the best position to win that game tonight.

SEALgep
06-16-2004, 09:06 PM
Pavano was just flat out awesome tonight they would have won no matter what. PK has been good but I hate benching frank, you can't bench arguably the best hitter in the al right now it's just not smart.He's not benching him, he's rotating them. They both need at bats. I want Frank in the lineup as much as anyone, but I don't PK to get into a funk when he's been playing well. Besides, part of the reason PK was in tonight was because he wanted the better defense for the left hander on the mound. It allows for pick offs where the first baseman can throw out runners, which we did tonight.

SEALgep
06-16-2004, 09:07 PM
I said nothing of the sort.

Benching your best hitter because "you don't know" the other guy won't hit better than him is playing to lose. That's what I said.You're not looking at the whole picture, there is more to it than that.

SEALgep
06-16-2004, 09:08 PM
I dissagree with this notion that a team is going to win no matter what. I mean, they had a damn good chance of winning this game. We killed their bullpen last night and having Frank in there would have improved our chances of getting to the bullpen. Maybe we only win that game 5 times out of 100, but the Sox werent in the best position to win that game tonight.What about the added runs that would have possibly been allowed due to Frank's lack of throwing ability? If you're going to measure possible scenerios, be sure to consider that, because there were many plays tonight where it was needed.

OEO Magglio
06-16-2004, 09:09 PM
I dissagree with this notion that a team is going to win no matter what. I mean, they had a damn good chance of winning this game. We killed their bullpen last night and having Frank in there would have improved our chances of getting to the bullpen. Maybe we only win that game 5 times out of 100, but the Sox werent in the best position to win that game tonight.I agree benching frank isn't smart and they weren't in the best position to win this game but Pavano was dealing and most likely would have lost. The only possibility the sox win this game is if Franks presence in the lineup would have got Pavano's pitch count up and then maybe get to the pen. Losing no matter what probably wasn't the best way to put it but most likely losing. But I agree with you one hundred percent play frank he's the best hitter out there right now.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2004, 09:10 PM
You're not looking at the whole picture, there is more to it than that.
What? Konerko's defense? Oh crap... let's not go there. He's a ****ing firstbasemen. 90 percent of the job is impersonating a tree trunk, something for which Konerko's wheels are well-suited.

OEO Magglio
06-16-2004, 09:10 PM
You're not looking at the whole picture, there is more to it than that.SEAL, whats the whole picture to keep pk happy, screw that, put your best lineup out there, pk has been solid but frank has been awesome you don't bench your best hitter just to get another person atbats it's stupid.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2004, 09:12 PM
What about the added runs that would have possibly been allowed due to Frank's lack of throwing ability? If you're going to measure possible scenerios, be sure to consider that, because there were many plays tonight where it was needed.Man, cue the Twilight Zone theme.

Hey, let's start Ozzie Smith at first base. He's got an even better arm than Konerko's... and even in retirement better legs, too.

Nobody ever won a ballgame because their firstbasemen was a great defender, something Paul Konerko isn't.

SEALgep
06-16-2004, 09:13 PM
What? Konerko's defense? Oh crap... let's not go there. He's a ****ing firstbasemen. 90 percent of the job is impersonating a tree trunk, something for which Konerko's wheels are well-suited.There were several plays tonight where if Frank were out there the plays wouldn't have been made. I'm not trying to mock Frank, but him not being out there transforms the game more than just the offensive end. First inning double play wouldn't have happened. Pick off throw wouldn't have ended the inning. Those could have been big plays, but let's not consider that, they're just trees.

ndgt10
06-16-2004, 09:13 PM
Man, cue the Twilight Zone theme.

Hey, let's start Ozzie Smith at first base. He's got an even better arm than Konerko's... and even in retirement better legs, too.

Nobody ever won a ballgame because their firstbasemen was a great defender, something Paul Konerko isn't.
True, but teams have lost games because their firstbasemen was a poor defender.

soxwon
06-16-2004, 09:13 PM
damn twins tied it up, in the 10th now

SEALgep
06-16-2004, 09:14 PM
SEAL, whats the whole picture to keep pk happy, screw that, put your best lineup out there, pk has been solid but frank has been awesome you don't bench your best hitter just to get another person atbats it's stupid.It has nothing to do with happiness.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2004, 09:15 PM
True, but teams have lost games because their firstbasemen was a poor defender.
Start Ozzie Smith. Problem solved, right?

SEALgep
06-16-2004, 09:15 PM
Man, cue the Twilight Zone theme.

Hey, let's start Ozzie Smith at first base. He's got an even better arm than Konerko's... and even in retirement better legs, too.

Nobody ever won a ballgame because their firstbasemen was a great defender, something Paul Konerko isn't.But they sure have lost games for it.

JRIG
06-16-2004, 09:15 PM
But they sure have lost games for it.
Can you give even one example of that?

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2004, 09:16 PM
But they sure have lost games for it.
Start Ozzie Smith at 1B if you seriously believe this nonsense. I'll start Frank Thomas and kick your team's ass 90 percent of the time.

ndgt10
06-16-2004, 09:16 PM
Can you give even one example of that?
Buckner

OEO Magglio
06-16-2004, 09:16 PM
It has nothing to do with happiness.So please explain to me what you mean by that then?

SEALgep
06-16-2004, 09:17 PM
Start Ozzie Smith. Problem solved, right?You're not even making sense. Being irrational and distorting what was meant doesn't prove anything. The fact is it's a position, and defense matters where ever. And tonight it certainly did matter.

SEALgep
06-16-2004, 09:18 PM
So please explain to me what you mean by that then?I've been, it's in the other posts. You think Ozzie is doing this to be cute? There are legitimate reasons and they've been stated.

SEALgep
06-16-2004, 09:21 PM
Start Ozzie Smith at 1B if you seriously believe this nonsense. I'll start Frank Thomas and kick your team's ass 90 percent of the time.What's your obsession with Ozzie Smith starting first. You said that, not me. To say that a first baseman not being able to throw doesn't matter, especially against a team like the Marlins, doesn't make any sense. You make it sound like PK hasn't been hitting the ball. If this was last year PK, point taken, but it's not. PK has earned his right to play, and for the various reasons already stated, it made sense as well.

CHISOXFAN13
06-16-2004, 09:21 PM
damn twins tied it up, in the 10th nowBecoming painfully obvious tha Minnesota will win this one. Lord, they have escaped countless times in the late innings against awful teams. I just hope it comes back to bite them when their schedule gets more difficult in August and September.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2004, 09:21 PM
You're not even making sense. Being irrational and distorting what was meant doesn't prove anything. The fact is it's a position, and defense matters where ever. And tonight it certainly did matter.
Look, if you want to suggest Konerko is a superior ballplayer to Frank, and thus deserved to play tonight, I intend to make you look as foolish as possible for staking such a ridiculous position. When you make assertions that Paul's glove is more valuable than Frank's bat, that's precisely what you want everyone to believe. That's what makes it foolish, and that is why you are in the box you placed yourself into.

Pavano pitched great. Why don't you start from there like Jjav did. He makes sense. What you've been saying is nonsense.

SEALgep
06-16-2004, 09:24 PM
Look, if you want to suggest Konerko is a superior ballplayer to Frank, and thus deserved to play tonight, I intend to make you look as foolish as possible for staking such a ridiculous position. When you make assertions that Paul's glove is more valuable than Frank's bat, that's precisely what you want everyone to believe. That's what makes it foolish, and that is why you are in the box you placed yourself into.

Pavano pitched great. Why don't you start from there like Jjav did. He makes sense. What you've been saying is nonsense.Again you amazingly distort the argument. I didn't say PK was better or that his glove is more valuable than Franks bat. To say that PK should sit for the entire interleague series makes you sound foolish, not the other way around. Both are valuable and both should play. It's your choice not to listen to the reasoning behind it, but it doesn't make you right.

ndgt10
06-16-2004, 09:25 PM
Meanwhile, LUIS RIVAS HR's for the twinks in the 11th. 5-4

OEO Magglio
06-16-2004, 09:25 PM
What's your obsession with Ozzie Smith starting first. You said that, not me. To say that a first baseman not being able to throw doesn't matter, especially against a team like the Marlins, doesn't make any sense. You make it sound like PK hasn't been hitting the ball. If this was last year PK, point taken, but it's not. PK has earned his right to play, and for the various reasons already stated, it made sense as well.Of course defense matters but it's absurd to rather have pk out there because he can throw better then frank. Frank is the best hitter in the american league right now, he's been unbelievable, PK has been solid but is no where near the player frank is. You can put a first basemen out there that can throw, I'll take the guy who is tearing up every single pitcher out there.

MRKARNO
06-16-2004, 09:25 PM
The Twins just got a foul ball called a home run off the bat of Luis Rivas. Utter bull****. No foul pole in Montreal, but the ball was clearly foul. BULL**************************

CHISOXFAN13
06-16-2004, 09:26 PM
Meanwhile, LUIS RIVAS HR's for the twinks in the 11th. 5-4
Un freeking believable. If we don't sweep Montreal, I think I'll be sick.

MRKARNO
06-16-2004, 09:27 PM
Un freeking believable. If we don't sweep Montreal, I think I'll be sick.
If you saw it you'd be more upset. It was a foul ball

SEALgep
06-16-2004, 09:28 PM
Meanwhile, LUIS RIVAS HR's for the twinks in the 11th. 5-4BS call.

AnkleSox
06-16-2004, 09:28 PM
why the **** is montreal even in the mlb?

I really hope the sox dont fall any further behind than .5 games, and if the twins go on another big losing streak like they did the other week, which is doubtful, the sox better take advantage of it. I'm sick of this inconsistency; the same thing that killed us last year.

OEO Magglio
06-16-2004, 09:28 PM
Again you amazingly distort the argument. I didn't say PK was better or that his glove is more valuable than Franks bat. To say that PK should sit for the entire interleague series makes you sound foolish, not the other way around. Both are valuable and both should play. It's your choice not to listen to the reasoning behind it, but it doesn't make you right.PK is not Frank. PK is solid, Frank is the best hitter in the al right now, Frank should be playing every single game.

JRIG
06-16-2004, 09:28 PM
Buckner
But Buckner should have been out of that game long before that play ever happened, just as was happening that entire season. Buckner was routinely replaced late in ballgames to defensive purposes that year.

ndgt10
06-16-2004, 09:28 PM
BS call.
Was it pretty obvious or close?

Jjav829
06-16-2004, 09:30 PM
Was it pretty obvious or close?
It was obvious. The umps screwed it up big time. Awful call.

SEALgep
06-16-2004, 09:30 PM
Of course defense matters but it's absurd to rather have pk out there because he can throw better then frank. Frank is the best hitter in the american league right now, he's been unbelievable, PK has been solid but is no where near the player frank is. You can put a first basemen out there that can throw, I'll take the guy who is tearing up every single pitcher out there.That's fine, but it would have cost us tonight. PK has to play too during this interleague play, and since there was a left hander on the hill, it made sense to have a first baseman who could throw. Plus PK was out two straight days without seeing live pitching. It would have been nice if Frank could play too, but you have to take everything into consideration. That's what Ozzie's doing.

MRKARNO
06-16-2004, 09:30 PM
Was it pretty obvious or close?
It was foul by 2-5 feet. None of the umps had a good view of it and the ball was called fair at first so there was nothing to overturn it.

SEALgep
06-16-2004, 09:31 PM
Was it pretty obvious or close?Close for a blind man, obvious to the rest of the stadium.

MRKARNO
06-16-2004, 09:31 PM
Close for a blind man, obvious to the rest of the stadium.
Obvious enough to protest the outcome, which I would were I Omar Minaya or Frank Robinson.

ndgt10
06-16-2004, 09:32 PM
Close for a blind man, obvious to the rest of the stadium.
ROFL

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2004, 09:32 PM
Again you amazingly distort the argument. I didn't say PK was better or that his glove is more valuable than Franks bat. To say that PK should sit for the entire interleague series makes you sound foolish, not the other way around. Both are valuable and both should play. It's your choice not to listen to the reasoning behind it, but it doesn't make you right.
Frank is more valuable. Unless he is truly hurt (and I don't believe for a minute he is), the notion he should be benched for Paul Konerko is silly. It's even sillier based on the "good defense" reasons you've been clinging to. I'm willingly to go along with Jjav's "unhittable Pavano" theory which basically states it wouldn't make any difference who played.

Konerko needs at-bats. He can get his at-bats pinch hitting, but not at the expense of any hitter as hot as Frank Thomas is right now.

SEALgep
06-16-2004, 09:33 PM
PK is not Frank. PK is solid, Frank is the best hitter in the al right now, Frank should be playing every single game.That's fine, but there are consequences to that. If PK were to go into a major funk after that, would you restrain from complaining about his poor at bats?

SEALgep
06-16-2004, 09:35 PM
Konerko needs at-bats. He can get his at-bats pinch hitting, but not at the expense of any hitter as hot as Frank Thomas is right now.If you think pinch hitting would suffice, you've obviously never played, especially at their level.

ndgt10
06-16-2004, 09:36 PM
Obvious enough to protest the outcome, which I would were I Omar Minaya or Frank Robinson.
What happens when you protest an outcome? Has anybody successfully done this before?

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2004, 09:37 PM
That's fine, but there are consequences to that. If PK were to go into a major funk after that, would you restrain from complaining about his poor at bats?
What *if* PK goes into a major funk?

Hey, I don't have to insert "if" in this sentence: The Sox aren't a good team with Frank Thomas and Magglio Ordonez missing from the line up.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2004, 09:38 PM
If you think pinch hitting would suffice, you've obviously never played, especially at their level.
Oh I'm sorry. I didn't realize you had. Yeah, that's a meaningful assertion coming from you...

<rolls eyes>

JRIG
06-16-2004, 09:41 PM
What *if* PK goes into a major funk?

Hey, I don't have to insert "if" in this sentence: The Sox aren't a good team with Frank Thomas and Magglio Ordonez missing from the line up.
What *if* Frank goes into a major funk because he sat out a game after an incredible hot streak? Can we afford to take that kind of chance? I think not.

And if you don't think a player can go into a funk after just one day off, you've obviously never played in the major leagues.

StockdaleForVeep
06-16-2004, 09:41 PM
Technically this is the second straight day our offense got mowed down by starting pitching. Yesterday we didnt do jack till they brought in relief. Second this game started i wished lee woulda been benched for today and tomorrow to keep the streak cuz i knew he wouldnt get a lucky at bat like last nite.

SEALgep
06-16-2004, 09:42 PM
Oh I'm sorry. I didn't realize you had. Yeah, that's a meaningful assertion coming from you...

<rolls eyes>I'm on the same page as Ozzie, you are disagreeing with him. Last I checked, Ozzie played the game.

SEALgep
06-16-2004, 09:44 PM
What *if* Frank goes into a major funk because he sat out a game after an incredible hot streak? Can we afford to take that kind of chance? I think not.

And if you don't think a player can go into a funk after just one day off, you've obviously never played in the major leagues.Take it up with Ozzie. He's trying to give them both at bats, but as you can see, you aren't going to satisfy everyone.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2004, 09:46 PM
I'm on the same page as Ozzie, you are disagreeing with him. Last I checked, Ozzie played the game.
And last I checked the team he put on the field this evening garnered exactly two hits while getting shutout. His firstbasemen was 0 for 4 with 2 K's and the hottest hitter in the league sat on the bench, allegedly for a foot injury *AND* because there was a lefty on the mound. Yea, sure...

A. Cavatica
06-16-2004, 09:48 PM
If PK were to go into a major funk after that, would you restrain from complaining about his poor at bats?
With PK, it's not if, but when. And I hope we trade him before he does.

Lip Man 1
06-16-2004, 09:49 PM
I think there have been a few very rare cases where a game had to be restarted from the point of protest but again it's extremely rare.

Montreal is the worst team in baseball...frankly I don't think they care one way or another so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on a protest.

I just can't stop thinking about the fact that by the time the Twins play the Yankees towards the end of the season those games won't mean anything to New York and they won't have their top lineup in place. It could make a major difference in the Central race.

Lip

soxwon
06-16-2004, 09:49 PM
oh great night sox lose, cubs win, twins just won.
cant catch a break.

OEO Magglio
06-16-2004, 09:49 PM
That's fine, but there are consequences to that. If PK were to go into a major funk after that, would you restrain from complaining about his poor at bats?I can throw what if's out there also. You Do NOT sit the hottest hitter in baseball right now to give another guy at bats, it's a dumb thing to do. I love ozzie but he can't do this again. Pavano was awesome but when maggs and frank aren't in that lineup it's much, much weaker and I'm sure you realize that.

MRKARNO
06-16-2004, 09:50 PM
What happens when you protest an outcome?
I really dont know but that was the most bull**** game/call I have ever seen. The Twins are just that though, a Bull**** team. If they win the division, by 4 or 5 games even then we know their bull**** worked yet again. I just hope they get buried in the second half like they should because of their tough schedule

HomerCoach
06-16-2004, 09:53 PM
A little late:
:tomatoaward

FarWestChicago
06-16-2004, 09:56 PM
A little late:
:tomatoawardLOL, George gets wound up and here comes the tomato. Who would have thunk it? http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2004, 09:56 PM
LOL, George gets wound up and here comes the tomato. Who would have thunk it? http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
My work here is done.

Good night everybody!

:supernana:

CapeFish
06-16-2004, 10:08 PM
You guys shouldn't be so hard on your players.

Showenwies had an average game, but our offense came alive and Pavano was really pitching good tonight.

Tomorrow really worries me. Which Beckett will we see? The World Series MVP or The Scrub?

Nick@Nite
06-16-2004, 10:12 PM
Tomorrow really worries me. Which Beckett will we see? The World Series MVP or The Scrub?
The Scrub.

flo-B-flo
06-16-2004, 10:18 PM
I was a little disappointed that Ozzie didn't pinch hit Frank for either Valentin or Konerko. Nothing was working and you got Frank Thomas on the bench. Use him for crissakes!
This I agree with. If you got nothin' from your offense all game USE FRANK THOMAS!!

doublem23
06-16-2004, 10:39 PM
I smell a fight a brewin'.


:)
Things have been too good around here lately... Some people need to freak out.

beckett21
06-16-2004, 10:43 PM
You guys shouldn't be so hard on your players.
Things tend to get pretty ugly around here after a loss, especially on a night when the Twins win. Not to mention falling out of first place.

But I agree with you.

Showenwies had an average game, but our offense came alive and Pavano was really pitching good tonight.
No shame there. Pavano had our number. Our best hope was getting the bullpen involved, but after last night Jack knew better.

Tomorrow really worries me. Which Beckett will we see? The World Series MVP or The Scrub?
SCRUB?:?:

I guess the question is whether or not he has his command after the layoff. Should be a fun one to watch.

Go Sox! :D:

ND_Sox_Fan
06-16-2004, 11:41 PM
You guys shouldn't be so hard on your players.

Showenwies had an average game, but our offense came alive and Pavano was really pitching good tonight.

Tomorrow really worries me. Which Beckett will we see? The World Series MVP or The Scrub?
The problem here is we lost without our best lineup on the field and that just is unacceptable! You have to do all you can to give your team the best chance to win the game, and it didn't happen here.

I think we are being more hard on the stupid-arce decision to sit Frank....

Cubbiesuck13
06-17-2004, 12:01 AM
oh great night sox lose, cubs win, twins just won.
cant catch a break.

cards won! i think right?

doublem23
06-17-2004, 12:24 AM
cards won! i think right?
6-2 over Oakland.

mdep524
06-17-2004, 12:39 AM
I have to agree with the argument that if Frank is a better hitter than Paul Konerko, he should get all the starts at 1B, otherwise you are not putting your best line up on the field.

One other point:
A game like tonight illustrates again the Sox' need for a moer flexible offense. This is not alarmist or anything- I really think Pavano was just amazing tonight. Plus Willie and Juan are struggling at the top a bit- and if they're not getting on base the only way for the Sox to score is homeruns. Well, homeruns are much more difficult when a.) you are facing a great pitcher (like Vazquez in April and Pavano tonight) and b.) you are playing in stadium that is not homer happy (and Pro Player is one of the least homer happy in the league.)
Are the Sox doomed if they lose to Vazquez and Pavano? Definitely not. But all I am saying is there is room for improvement there beyond just "tipping your cap," and come playoff time if we face Vazquez or Pavano and they're on their game, I hope the Sox have the right game plan, and the right players, to put up a fight.

Deadguy
06-17-2004, 01:03 AM
Lol, so his rbi's don't mean a thing, but Frank batting third or fourth count more than his?Actually, a lot of Konerko's RBIs really don't mean a thing. I swear, he is the king of the the garbage time RBI. He's had a couple games where he has singlehandley won the game for the Sox, but a lot of his RBIs have occurred when the Sox are up by 7 or 8 runs in the late innings, and Konerko's teeing off against some mop up guy. I'd rather see him get RBIs in the 2nd or 4th innings, when the score is ussually still close, and the game is still in doubt.

I remember a game against the Twins in which Konerko actually threw a hissy fit after drawing a 3rd walk in a game, when the Sox were up 9-3, late in the game. What the hell was that all about?

compy75
06-17-2004, 01:17 AM
Actually, a lot of Konerko's RBIs really don't mean a thing. I swear, he is the king of the the garbage time RBI. He's had a couple games where he has singlehandley won the game for the Sox, but a lot of his RBIs have occurred when the Sox are up by 7 or 8 runs in the late innings, and Konerko's teeing off against some mop up guy. I'd rather see him get RBIs in the 2nd or 4th innings, when the score is ussually still close, and the game is still in doubt.

I remember a game against the Twins in which Konerko actually threw a hissy fit after drawing a 3rd walk in a game, when the Sox were up 9-3, late in the game. What the hell was that all about?
I wouldn't even worry about it. Clearly the guy who said Pauly led the team in RBIs has no clue and isn't a big tiem fan b/c for the past 4 days Frank has overtaken PK in team RBIs 43-38.

I just hope Frank doesn't cool from sitting out AND not even freakin pinch hitting. Just doesn't make sense. What's irritating is that Ozzie seems to see Frank and Konerko on the same level.

OurBitchinMinny
06-17-2004, 02:00 AM
I said nothing of the sort.

Benching your best hitter because "you don't know" the other guy won't hit better than him is playing to lose. That's what I said.
Franks off to a good start, but lets not forget our best hitter is maggs. Has been since 2000.

OurBitchinMinny
06-17-2004, 02:01 AM
I wouldn't even worry about it. Clearly the guy who said Pauly led the team in RBIs has no clue and isn't a big tiem fan b/c for the past 4 days Frank has overtaken PK in team RBIs 43-38.

I just hope Frank doesn't cool from sitting out AND not even freakin pinch hitting. Just doesn't make sense. What's irritating is that Ozzie seems to see Frank and Konerko on the same level.
Frank and konerko, at this point of their careers are very similar players. They have similar #'s and the only major difference is that frank is a liability in the field. Now in Franks prime he was a much better player than pk is in his prime

delben91
06-17-2004, 06:56 AM
Wow, the level of freaking out on this thread amazes me. A good pitcher, who came into the game hot and with a sub-3.00 ERA dominated the Sox tonight. It happens. There was the game in Tampa where Loaiza was unhittable. And amazing though it may sound, I'll bet any amount of money that there will be some games before the end of the year where the Twins face real pitching and they too are absolutely shut down. It happens to every team.

Whatever, today is a new day and we still go in with the chance to take a series from the defending world series champs in their house.

GO SOX!!

MRKARNO
06-17-2004, 08:37 AM
Franks off to a good start, but lets not forget our best hitter is maggs. Has been since 2000.
I have to fundamentally dissagree with you. Who is the franchise leader for Homers? Who has a career .429 OBP? Who has the 2 MVPs? Hell, who is the current AL Leader in OPS and the current AL home run leader? Not maggs, it's Frank. Frank is definately a better hitter than Maggs. While Maggs has been more consistant, in the years that Frank has produced, his numbers have been much better than those of Maggs' best years. Frank is on pace for a great year and even a 100% healthy Magglio could not match what Frank is going to do this year.

SEALgep
06-17-2004, 09:19 AM
I wouldn't even worry about it. Clearly the guy who said Pauly led the team in RBIs has no clue and isn't a big tiem fan b/c for the past 4 days Frank has overtaken PK in team RBIs 43-38.

I just hope Frank doesn't cool from sitting out AND not even freakin pinch hitting. Just doesn't make sense. What's irritating is that Ozzie seems to see Frank and Konerko on the same level.I'm not a fan? Lol. Anyway, what's irritating is people simply ignoring why the move was made. It's real easy to say Frank should be in the lineup everyday and PK should just sit out for a couple weeks. Baseball doesn't work that way if you want to have a good lineup throughout the long term. As a "super fan" you should have probably realized that already.

OEO Magglio
06-17-2004, 09:26 AM
I'm not a fan? Lol. Anyway, what's irritating is people simply ignoring why the move was made. It's real easy to say Frank should be in the lineup everyday and PK should just sit out for a couple weeks. Baseball doesn't work that way if you want to have a good lineup throughout the long term. As a "super fan" you should have probably realized that already.SEAL, would you bench bonds, would you bench arod, would you bench pujols ever just to give a guy at bats?? You have to put your best players out there every game and especially with Maggs out you can't bench frank.

SEALgep
06-17-2004, 09:43 AM
SEAL, would you bench bonds, would you bench arod, would you bench pujols ever just to give a guy at bats?? You have to put your best players out there every game and especially with Maggs out you can't bench frank.http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040616soxbits,1,5968686.story?coll=cs-home-headlines


You don't bench your best hitter, but you don't bench your second or third best hitter either. If it were as simple as keep Frank in for all the games and PK would come in back at AL games and not skip a beat, fine, even though Ozzie wanted the defense. However, the interleague games does hurt our club, but Ozzie is trying to minimize it. Ozzie doesn't want to risk putting PK into a major funk, I don't see why that is so bad? Frank is better, but PK is needed as well for us to go where we want.

Flight #24
06-17-2004, 09:44 AM
SEAL, would you bench bonds, would you bench arod, would you bench pujols ever just to give a guy at bats?? You have to put your best players out there every game and especially with Maggs out you can't bench frank.
I guarantee you those guys will all get days off now and then. IMO, there's no one reason why Frank was benched. There are a number of lesser reasons that by themselves would be ludicrous, but when added up are a bit more meaningful

1) Frank will sit out a few games this season just to get a break

2) Frank's not a great defender, Paulie's better. This increases in importance given our starting pitcher

3) Frank's not used to playing the field every day (i.e. he's going to have more aches & pains than your average player). So it's likely that he'll need to sit a game or 2 in interleague anyway

4) Paulie can't sit out for a week with 2-5 pinch hit ABs and be expected to continue to hit like he was.

Now personally, I think I'dve sat Frank against Montreal since they should be easier to beat than Florida. But it's Ozzie's call, and whether or not we may disagree, there is a reasonable argument to be made for sitting Frank - it's not like he made a completely boneheaded move.

compy75
06-17-2004, 09:50 AM
I'm not a fan? Lol. Anyway, what's irritating is people simply ignoring why the move was made. It's real easy to say Frank should be in the lineup everyday and PK should just sit out for a couple weeks. Baseball doesn't work that way if you want to have a good lineup throughout the long term. As a "super fan" you should have probably realized that already.
First of all, I didn't mean your not a fan literally. It was all tongue in cheek. What I am getting out here is that you potentially can get BOTH guys into a funk by alternating them. Anyway, you shake it out it if we alternate it might throw off both guys and it wasn't like Konerko was white hot. He was 5-18 with a single dinger in the past week.

I can appreciate why he chose that way but when you have the best hitter in the AL, it's hard to justify why he didn't even pinch hit him last night. I just hope that this alternating doesn't cool off Frank b/c Konerko wasn't exactly hot before these series.

Mickster
06-17-2004, 09:52 AM
I'm not a fan? Lol. Anyway, what's irritating is people simply ignoring why the move was made. It's real easy to say Frank should be in the lineup everyday and PK should just sit out for a couple weeks. Baseball doesn't work that way if you want to have a good lineup throughout the long term. As a "super fan" you should have probably realized that already.
A couple of weeks? We play 6 days in NL parks this week and this week only. Not even a week. We next play in the Urinal for 3 games next month. While Frank was busy hitting 4 homers in the last 3 games, you DO NOT take him out of the lineup, period. In fact, I'm worried more about Frank getting "cold" while on this torrid streak than GIDPaulie sitting for 6 games. If frank had a game going 0-4, then sit him for PK, until then.... DUMB MOVE.

Seal, you seem to get upset that people are picking on Ozzie. Yes he's been a great addition to this team, yes everyone loves him, but he's a 1st year manager who is bound to make a few mistakes. This being one of them.

OEO Magglio
06-17-2004, 09:53 AM
I guarantee you those guys will all get days off now and then. IMO, there's no one reason why Frank was benched. There are a number of lesser reasons that by themselves would be ludicrous, but when added up are a bit more meaningful

1) Frank will sit out a few games this season just to get a break

2) Frank's not a great defender, Paulie's better. This increases in importance given our starting pitcher

3) Frank's not used to playing the field every day (i.e. he's going to have more aches & pains than your average player). So it's likely that he'll need to sit a game or 2 in interleague anyway

4) Paulie can't sit out for a week with 2-5 pinch hit ABs and be expected to continue to hit like he was.

Now personally, I think I'dve sat Frank against Montreal since they should be easier to beat than Florida. But it's Ozzie's call, and whether or not we may disagree, there is a reasonable argument to be made for sitting Frank - it's not like he made a completely boneheaded move.Of course everyone gets days off when they need a day off. This would have been frank's third game this whole year at first base, he's been the dh the whole year, he doesn't need a day off yet. You say frank's not a great defender but pauly is no where near a great defender. With your third point once again that would have been frank's third game all year playing first base, he can handle it. Once again you guys are just assuming pauly goes into a funk because of some games off. That's not necessarily going to happen and you have to put your best team on the field. If you must bench frank one game you don't do it against the defending world champs.

SEALgep
06-17-2004, 09:57 AM
First of all, I didn't mean your not a fan literally. It was all tongue in cheek. What I am getting out here is that you potentially can get BOTH guys into a funk by alternating them. Anyway, you shake it out it if we alternate it might throw off both guys and it wasn't like Konerko was white hot. He was 5-18 with a single dinger in the past week.

I can appreciate why he chose that way but when you have the best hitter in the AL, it's hard to justify why he didn't even pinch hit him last night. I just hope that this alternating doesn't cool off Frank b/c Konerko wasn't exactly hot before these series.I respect the concern, we certainly don't want to cool down Frank either. However, any approach has consequences potentially. Some people discount the defense portion of the decision, but last night could have been a different game for the worse if Frank were at first. There were several occasssions where throwing would be crucial to get out of innings and prevent them from being in scoring position. Again though, both these guys need at bats, and Frank probably should have at least pinched hit. However, throughout this interleague, we need to give both of these guys at bats. Your point is well taken.

Flight #24
06-17-2004, 10:07 AM
Of course everyone gets days off when they need a day off. This would have been frank's third game this whole year at first base, he's been the dh the whole year, he doesn't need a day off yet. You say frank's not a great defender but pauly is no where near a great defender. With your third point once again that would have been frank's third game all year playing first base, he can handle it. Once again you guys are just assuming pauly goes into a funk because of some games off. That's not necessarily going to happen and you have to put your best team on the field. If you must bench frank one game you don't do it against the defending world champs.
I'm not saying that I would have done the same thing (I'd have sat Frank against the Expos), but it's not a boneheaded move, it's a judgement call by Ozzie on a move that has rational reasons behind it.

What it comes down to is:
1) What does Ozzie think is the "necessary" ABs for Paulie
2) What does Ozzie think is the "right way" to get Frank time a 1B and time off?

None of the answers to these are cut and dry, Whichever move he chose has some potential negative consequences.

OEO Magglio
06-17-2004, 10:22 AM
I'm not saying that I would have done the same thing (I'd have sat Frank against the Expos), but it's not a boneheaded move, it's a judgement call by Ozzie on a move that has rational reasons behind it.

What it comes down to is:
1) What does Ozzie think is the "necessary" ABs for Paulie
2) What does Ozzie think is the "right way" to get Frank time a 1B and time off?

None of the answers to these are cut and dry, Whichever move he chose has some potential negative consequences.Sure, they all have consequences and that's why you go with the best possible lineup which is to put Frank out there every single day. You don't know if Pauly is going to get into a funk, like compy said by switching them each day, potentially you get them both going bad but it's all potentially, nothing is for sure. The fact is you don't sit the best hitter in the al just to get pauly at bats, you can't sit Frank against the world champs when your already missing maggs, it isn't smart.

SEALgep
06-17-2004, 10:24 AM
Sure, they all have consequences and that's why you go with the best possible lineup which is to put Frank out there every single day. You don't know if Pauly is going to get into a funk, like compy said by switching them each day, potentially you get them both going bad but it's all potentially, nothing is for sure. The fact is you don't sit the best hitter in the al just to get pauly at bats, you can't sit Frank against the world champs when your already missing maggs, it isn't smart.You have to weigh the consequences, and that's what Ozzie's doing. You obviously don't agree, so why don't you write him a letter?

SEALgep
06-17-2004, 10:26 AM
Of course everyone gets days off when they need a day off. This would have been frank's third game this whole year at first base, he's been the dh the whole year, he doesn't need a day off yet. You say frank's not a great defender but pauly is no where near a great defender. With your third point once again that would have been frank's third game all year playing first base, he can handle it. Once again you guys are just assuming pauly goes into a funk because of some games off. That's not necessarily going to happen and you have to put your best team on the field. If you must bench frank one game you don't do it against the defending world champs.Frank isn't used to playing first everyday. Remember when he got real sore from throwing the ball in ST and had to sit out a while? Ozzie is being cautious from a lot of different perspectives of the situation. I don't have a problem with that.

Dadawg_77
06-17-2004, 11:32 AM
I have heard this type of argument before by fans clad in blue and red.....
Kittle I blame you for the loss. You didn't do the welcome to second place thread. If you had done, the Sox would have won because of the reverse curse.

Dadawg_77
06-17-2004, 11:53 AM
Defense really doesn't matter a whole lot at first. Who would you rather have playing for you, JT Snow of Frank Thomas? To have defense be major portion of decision making for first base starter is just a bad process. Paul does need at bats, and this was only one game out of 162, so why not trying to lose the game, you need to make sure you have your guys ready to play for the entire marathon. But if it was the WS, Ozzie should be given the Brady Little treatment. Batting Paul against a lefty is a good move in the fact he will have trouble with righties so should produce more with a left on the hill.

Is great preformance by a pitcher caused by bad hitters or great pitching or most likely, a combination of the two. So I think saying, "no one could hit him," is a logical fallcy since no one else tried.

JRIG
06-17-2004, 12:56 PM
Frank and konerko, at this point of their careers are very similar players. They have similar #'s and the only major difference is that frank is a liability in the field. Now in Franks prime he was a much better player than pk is in his prime

And Frank gets on base more.

And Frank has more power.

And Frank is the best hitter in the AL.

Other than that, very similar.

JRIG
06-17-2004, 01:00 PM
Franks off to a good start, but lets not forget our best hitter is maggs. Has been since 2000.

Except for last year. And this year.

So the two seasons Frank has been injured (2001, most of 2002 recovering), yes, Mags has been a better hitter than him.

Deadguy
06-17-2004, 01:34 PM
Now in Franks prime he was a much better player than pk is in his prime
?

Wouldn't that make Frank much better than Konerko this year? His OBP and Slugging percentage at this point are higher than any season except for 1994, and he is leading the league in OPS. The Frank we are looking at right now is comparable to the Frank we saw from 1991-1997.

Flight #24
06-17-2004, 02:03 PM
?

Wouldn't that make Frank much better than Konerko this year? His OBP and Slugging percentage at this point are higher than any season except for 1994, and he is leading the league in OPS. The Frank we are looking at right now is comparable to the Frank we saw from 1991-1997.
Now...what could possibly have happened to Frank between 98-03?????

I have no idea.....

:jerry
Best hitter in the game? Hmmm....I'm sure I can find a way to "fix" him!