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jeremyb1
06-16-2004, 01:50 AM
Rauch had his second strong start after returning to AAA tonight going 8 innings giving up just one run on 5 hits in 8 innings with 6 k's against no walks, lowering his league leading ERA to 2.30. Personally I think the fifth starter talk has become overblown as well as Munoz, Rauch, and even Diaz are throwing. Yeah it'd be great to have another top of the rotation starter but give any of these three guys an extended trial and I think they'd probably be at least average for a fifth starter.

http://milb.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=minorbaseball&page=milb-intl/scores/final/boxscore.aspx?GAMEID=13907

OurBitchinMinny
06-16-2004, 01:53 AM
I see your point, but you can never have too many good starters. Id love if one of those guys would step in, but the fact in schoenweis is starting to get hit and loaiza is giving up too many runs and you never know what you are gonna get from garland and even buerhle is not always lights out. A guy like sheets or garcia would be great, as long as you dont have to give up too much

OEO Magglio
06-16-2004, 02:04 AM
Rauch had his second strong start after returning to AAA tonight going 8 innings giving up just one run on 5 hits in 8 innings with 6 k's against no walks, lowering his league leading ERA to 2.30. Personally I think the fifth starter talk has become overblown as well as Munoz, Rauch, and even Diaz are throwing. Yeah it'd be great to have another top of the rotation starter but give any of these three guys an extended trial and I think they'd probably be at least average for a fifth starter.

http://milb.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=minorbaseball&page=milb-intl/scores/final/boxscore.aspx?GAMEID=13907I hope Jon continues to pitch real well and then he can be used as trade bait. Jon might be descent one day but it won't happen here.

idseer
06-16-2004, 08:49 AM
I hope Jon continues to pitch real well and then he can be used as trade bait. Jon might be descent one day but it won't happen here.
i hope it DOES happen here. no sense in having a guy with his ability finally starting to mature into a pitcher and then turning around and dumping him for .....what? another pitcher?

get over your anger. :smile:

Iguana775
06-16-2004, 09:24 AM
i hope it DOES happen here. no sense in having a guy with his ability finally starting to mature into a pitcher and then turning around and dumping him for .....what? another pitcher?

get over your anger. :smile:
They should bring him back up and put him in the pen like they did with burly. He could take Jacksons spot....couldn't do much worse than him. lol.

Fungo
06-16-2004, 09:39 AM
i hope it DOES happen here. no sense in having a guy with his ability finally starting to mature into a pitcher and then turning around and dumping him for .....what? another pitcher?

get over your anger. :smile:
Agreed. Perhaps the episode that occurred in Chicago was the best thing that could have happened for him. Oddly enough, situations like that can often be reality checks. Maybe this was a real eye-opener for Jon.

minastirith67
06-16-2004, 10:16 AM
Jon Rauch can **** off. I hope he finishes his career elsewhere, the disrespectful *******.

idseer
06-16-2004, 10:17 AM
Jon Rauch can **** off. I hope he finishes his career elsewhere, the disrespectful *******.
well .....

i guess you can say that seeing as how you're a perfect person.

minastirith67
06-16-2004, 10:26 AM
well .....

i guess you can say that seeing as how you're a perfect person.
Far from it. I guess you can say that I'm still reeling from that little stunt he pulled after his one game in the show earlier. If you find this episode excusable, I'd like to know why.

Blob
06-16-2004, 10:36 AM
I would still like to see Jon do well here. He just needs some movement on his fastball. Ala Loiza.


What do you call a 94 MPH fastball that doesn't break???

A HOME RUN!

gosox41
06-16-2004, 10:45 AM
I hope Jon continues to pitch real well and then he can be used as trade bait. Jon might be descent one day but it won't happen here.

Why? Is it because KW won't give him a second chance or because the Sox are doing a bad job developing pitching?



Bob

SoxOnTop
06-16-2004, 10:48 AM
Jon Rauch can **** off. I hope he finishes his career elsewhere, the disrespectful *******.
I agree. If the kid couldn't even handle the pressure one spot start in the big leagues how is he going to handle a full season. The kid has "headcase" written all over him.

Deal him.

idseer
06-16-2004, 10:55 AM
Far from it. I guess you can say that I'm still reeling from that little stunt he pulled after his one game in the show earlier. If you find this episode excusable, I'd like to know why.
it's not so much i find it excusable as forgivable. players have done a whole lot worse.
he probably should have been reprimanded to some extent and he was. but my god, he didn't hurt anyone, he didn't steal anything, he didn't give signs to the other team. he wasn't going to play again that day, he didn't feel like a part of the team knowing he was being shipped back out, he pitched crappy and was down about it, he knew it didn't make a damn bit of difference for him to sit there throughout the game only to be uncomfotably whispered about when it was over.

the bigger question is why in the world would YOU be REELING and bitter over this small incident?

idseer
06-16-2004, 10:59 AM
I agree. If the kid couldn't even handle the pressure one spot start in the big leagues how is he going to handle a full season. The kid has "headcase" written all over him.

Deal him.
what did pressure have to do with it? why does him leaving early to be with his parents equal pressure?
the stuff people pile on others because of ONE stupid incident is sickening.
i'll say it again ... are you so damn perfect you never screwed up?

Randar68
06-16-2004, 11:08 AM
Far from it. I guess you can say that I'm still reeling from that little stunt he pulled after his one game in the show earlier. If you find this episode excusable, I'd like to know why.
Lol. Maybe we should rephrase it then...

"i guess you can say that seeing as how you're all omniscient."

Tell us more about the details of the event, since you must have been there. After all, if you're all-knowing, you must have the real scoop...

34 Inch Stick
06-16-2004, 11:42 AM
The better Rauch and Rowand do the more attractive the offer is to the Mariners.

GoSox2K3
06-16-2004, 11:44 AM
Back on topic.....

I'm not going to get excited about Rauch, Munoz, Diaz or anyone else until they show at least some success with the White Sox. The Sox organization must lead the league over the past 10 years in pitchers that are awesome in AAA but are total washouts in the majors.

gogo59
06-16-2004, 01:15 PM
Rauch had his second strong start after returning to AAA tonight going 8 innings giving up just one run on 5 hits in 8 innings with 6 k's against no walks, lowering his league leading ERA to 2.30. Personally I think the fifth starter talk has become overblown as well as Munoz, Rauch, and even Diaz are throwing. Yeah it'd be great to have another top of the rotation starter but give any of these three guys an extended trial and I think they'd probably be at least average for a fifth starter.

http://milb.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=minorbaseball&page=milb-intl/scores/final/boxscore.aspx?GAMEID=13907
I couldn't agree more. Rauch's early departure against the Angels was wrong, but it doesn't justify the Sox dumping him after almost a 6-year investment in him. He obviously had stellar stuff a few years ago when he was the Minor League POY. Granted, that was pre-injury, but his numbers this year suggest he may be getting back near his old form. He may have bombed in his one ML start this year, but I'd like to see the Sox give him an extended chance. If he succeeds, they'll have a potentially significant contributor for at least several years to come. If they trade for Garcia, at best they get a talented pitcher for a few months and, at worst, they have to give up a top-line prospect in addition to Rowand and Rauch to get him.

OEO Magglio
06-16-2004, 01:23 PM
i hope it DOES happen here. no sense in having a guy with his ability finally starting to mature into a pitcher and then turning around and dumping him for .....what? another pitcher?

get over your anger. :smile:I'm not angry at all. The fact is he won't be able to succeed with the sox, he needs a change of scenery. The better he pitches the more and more likely it could be to use him as a centerpiece around a deal. Gosox41, leave it to you to take a thread about Jon Rauch and get a bashing of kw in.

From blob:What do you call a 94 MPH fastball that doesn't break???
A billy koch fastball.:D:

Iguana775
06-16-2004, 02:19 PM
I'm not angry at all. The fact is he won't be able to succeed with the sox, he needs a change of scenery. The better he pitches the more and more likely it could be to use him as a centerpiece around a deal. Gosox41, leave it to you to take a thread about Jon Rauch and get a bashing of kw in.

From blob:What do you call a 94 MPH fastball that doesn't break???
A billy koch fastball.:D:
Fastballs arent suppose to break. that is what a breaking ball is for. now a fastball that doesnt have movement would have been more appropriate.

OEO Magglio
06-16-2004, 02:25 PM
Fastballs arent suppose to break. that is what a breaking ball is for. now a fastball that doesnt have movement would have been more appropriate.Yes, well I think that's what he meant so that's why I put that.

Iguana775
06-16-2004, 02:27 PM
Yes, well I think that's what he meant so that's why I put that.
lol...yea....i know. just being a smart ass.

:tongue:

hold2dibber
06-16-2004, 02:34 PM
I'm not angry at all. The fact is he won't be able to succeed with the sox, he needs a change of scenery. The better he pitches the more and more likely it could be to use him as a centerpiece around a deal. Gosox41, leave it to you to take a thread about Jon Rauch and get a bashing of kw in.

From blob:What do you call a 94 MPH fastball that doesn't break???
A billy koch fastball.:D:
It's hardly a "fact" that he won't succeed with the Sox - hell, he's succeeding right now with the Sox AAA team right now. So why does he need a change of scenery? If you think his teammates will never, ever be able to forgive him for his single dumb ass move, you're nuts. He comes in, acts contrite, apologizes and then kicks some rear end on the mound, and all is forgiven in a heart beat.

jeremyb1
06-16-2004, 02:42 PM
Back on topic.....

I'm not going to get excited about Rauch, Munoz, Diaz or anyone else until they show at least some success with the White Sox. The Sox organization must lead the league over the past 10 years in pitchers that are awesome in AAA but are total washouts in the majors.

Well that makes sense but you shouldn't assume by default they won't succeed. You can read basically next to nothing from the conbined three starts made by the trio so I wouldn't assume any of them can't get it done. All three deserve shots in my opinion.

jeremyb1
06-16-2004, 02:44 PM
They should bring him back up and put him in the pen like they did with burly. He could take Jacksons spot....couldn't do much worse than him. lol.

Great point. I don't trust a single pitcher in the pen outside of Shingo and Marte really and we have Munoz, Diaz, Rauch, Majewski, and Bajarneau dominating in the minors.

OEO Magglio
06-16-2004, 02:45 PM
It's hardly a "fact" that he won't succeed with the Sox - hell, he's succeeding right now with the Sox AAA team right now. So why does he need a change of scenery? If you think his teammates will never, ever be able to forgive him for his single dumb ass move, you're nuts. He comes in, acts contrite, apologizes and then kicks some rear end on the mound, and all is forgiven in a heart beat.Ok, maybe it's not a fact but it's probably most likely. He's succeeding in the minors but imo he won't succeed in the big leagues with the sox, I hope I'm wrong but as of right now I'd rather him be used as the centerpiece of a deal that could land Garcia.

jackbrohamer
06-16-2004, 03:37 PM
Agreed. Perhaps the episode that occurred in Chicago was the best thing that could have happened for him. Oddly enough, situations like that can often be reality checks. Maybe this was a real eye-opener for Jon.
To me it's similar to a few years when Andruw Jones totally jaked it on a flyball, Bobby Cox pulled him out of the game right then and there, totally humiliating Jones. It was stupid of Jones to do it, everyone got mad at him temporarily then everyone got over it & he's having a great career.

minastirith67
06-16-2004, 08:54 PM
A lot has been invested (time, money, patience, training) in Jon Rauch, despite injury, and what does he have to prove for it? A Terrible outing and then disrespect to his teammates. Did he even officially apologize for what he did? I'm not saying the White Sox can't get over what he did, I just personally do not like him and would love to see him traded for as much as we can get. Good riddance.

beckett21
06-16-2004, 09:04 PM
A lot has been invested (time, money, patience, training) in Jon Rauch, despite injury, and what does he have to prove for it? A Terrible outing and then disrespect to his teammates. Did he even officially apologize for what he did? I'm not saying the White Sox can't get over what he did, I just personally do not like him and would love to see him traded for as much as we can get. Good riddance.
Gee how forgiving.

I don't know how poor Jon will ever sleep at night knowing you hate him.

He made a mistake. Big deal. Get over it. He was thrown into a situation where he pitched once in 9 days IIRC, with very little preparation. He left early because he was presumably going straight back down to AAA right after the game anyway. He did call the postgame show and apologize for his actions saying that it was a misunderstanding on his part. Maybe he didn't know he owed you a personal apology. I'm sure he'll get right on that.

Anyway this was a nice topic about a month ago. Feel free to go back and peruse the 800-or-so post thread regarding this topic if you still feel you are owed your pound of flesh.

Glass houses.....(with respect to Randar)

Rex Hudler
06-16-2004, 09:36 PM
It's hardly a "fact" that he won't succeed with the Sox - hell, he's succeeding right now with the Sox AAA team right now. So why does he need a change of scenery? If you think his teammates will never, ever be able to forgive him for his single dumb ass move, you're nuts. He comes in, acts contrite, apologizes and then kicks some rear end on the mound, and all is forgiven in a heart beat.
This has been discussed before, but it is not like Rauch has been angelic up until this past incident. I am not judging what they should do with him, but I don't think it is accurate to look at this as a one-time incident. It is more of a pattern, I am afraid.

A. Cavatica
06-16-2004, 09:43 PM
If there's anyone out there who was hard on Rauch for leaving early, but was happy to see us go get Everett or Robbie Alomar or Belle or Cordero, you ought to think about it a bit more.

Rex Hudler
06-16-2004, 11:51 PM
If there's anyone out there who was hard on Rauch for leaving early, but was happy to see us go get Everett or Robbie Alomar or Belle or Cordero, you ought to think about it a bit more.
Explain please......

beckett21
06-16-2004, 11:59 PM
Explain please......
I'll offer my interpretation:

Everett=madman (see Boston days)

Robbie Alomar=spits on umpires

Albert Belle=model citizen (don't even know where to begin here)

Cordero=wife-beater=pathetic wretch



If these acts can be condoned/tolerated/accepted, why should Rauch be a pariah for his transgressions?

I thought Americans were so forgiving?

Not speaking for A. Cavatica, just my $0.02 take on his post. Take it FWIW.

Rex Hudler
06-17-2004, 12:46 AM
I'll offer my interpretation:

Everett=madman (see Boston days)

Robbie Alomar=spits on umpires

Albert Belle=model citizen (don't even know where to begin here)

Cordero=wife-beater=pathetic wretch



If these acts can be condoned/tolerated/accepted, why should Rauch be a pariah for his transgressions?

I thought Americans were so forgiving?

Not speaking for A. Cavatica, just my $0.02 take on his post. Take it FWIW.
I can't speak specifically about how these guys handled themselves within the clubhouse and how they handled their business as professionals, but I think that is the problem with Rauch. He has a tendency to alienate his teammates, coaches and the organization.

There is a difference. Also keep in mind, that organizations always seem to think they can overcome or fix other teams problems if the guy has talent. So a problem child in a different clubhouse is viewed more positively than one in their own. Not saying that is how it should be, but it is reality.

And FWIW, I didn't like the Everett pick up, thought Alomar would be good for the club based on his work ethic and professionalism and his brother, never cared for signing Albert Belle and Wil Cordero didn't seem important enough to evoke a response.

All this said, I am not trying to infer that Rauch is a terrible person and belongs in the penal system. Only that, using words a teacher might say to a parent, he seems to have trouble playing with others.

SoxOnTop
06-17-2004, 12:49 AM
what did pressure have to do with it? why does him leaving early to be with his parents equal pressure?
the stuff people pile on others because of ONE stupid incident is sickening.
i'll say it again ... are you so damn perfect you never screwed up?:smile:

I'm certainly far from perfect and have made more than my fair share of mistakes, but I'm not touting myself as a major league pitcher. I'm sure that Rauch is a good kid, but to be a successful starting pitcher in the major leagues takes a certain mental make-up. Top pitchers thrive on pressure and when they get shelled, they man up and meet the press. By skimming out before the game was even over he shows me that he has trouble dealing with the kind of pressure that comes with being an MLB starter. Fight or Flight. He flew and that tells me that to make him successfull he'll need to be coddled and I'd just as soon get something for him and let another organization hold his hand.

It's a tough business and you need to be mentally tough to be successful. His actions tell me that he doesn't have it.

idseer
06-17-2004, 01:01 AM
:smile:

I'm certainly far from perfect and have made more than my fair share of mistakes, but I'm not touting myself as a major league pitcher. I'm sure that Rauch is a good kid, but to be a successful starting pitcher in the major leagues takes a certain mental make-up. Top pitchers thrive on pressure and when they get shelled, they man up and meet the press. By skimming out before the game was even over he shows me that he has trouble dealing with the kind of pressure that comes with being an MLB starter. Fight or Flight. He flew and that tells me that to make him successfull he'll need to be coddled and I'd just as soon get something for him and let another organization hold his hand.

It's a tough business and you need to be mentally tough to be successful. His actions tell me that he doesn't have it.
he'd lost for the sox worse than that before. the one has nothing to do with the other. his reasons for leaving have nothing to do with 'tough makeup'.
too many people act like they really know just what happened and why.

beckett21
06-17-2004, 01:08 AM
I can't speak specifically about how these guys handled themselves within the clubhouse and how they handled their business as professionals, but I think that is the problem with Rauch. He has a tendency to alienate his teammates, coaches and the organization.

There is a difference. Also keep in mind, that organizations always seem to think they can overcome or fix other teams problems if the guy has talent. So a problem child in a different clubhouse is viewed more positively than one in their own. Not saying that is how it should be, but it is reality.

And FWIW, I didn't like the Everett pick up, thought Alomar would be good for the club based on his work ethic and professionalism and his brother, never cared for signing Albert Belle and Wil Cordero didn't seem important enough to evoke a response.

All this said, I am not trying to infer that Rauch is a terrible person and belongs in the penal system. Only that, using words a teacher might say to a parent, he seems to have trouble playing with others.
You are obviously in a position where you have access to inside information and/or players. I don't know you Rex, and maybe you have said before what your connection is with the Barons, or maybe you can't. If you did sorry if I missed it. I'll have to take your comments/opinions at face value, and there is obviously no way I can counter them.

That said, all I have to go on as a *common fan* is what I see on t.v. and what I can glean from the media. We all know how slanted the media can be. Take it for what it's worth, I guess. With a grain of salt.

No offense here, but I see no reason for me to hate Jon Rauch just because you tell me how miserable of a person he is. I don't know you, I don't know him. You say it is a pattern with him, and you obviously have your reasons. To me in my world, it is all heresy. I cannot prove or refute any of it. Based on the one incident which just occured, to me that was not a big deal. And that's the one which has been so blown up here. Perhaps you have listed other reasons here in the past, I don't expect you to re-hash them every other week just for my benefit. Going on what little information I have to go on, the whole thing was blown out of proportion IMO. And this is the only incident I am aware of.

Everyone has their own opinion. People usually also have agendas in expressing their opinions, so I choose to believe what is plausible to me.

I don't know the man, I was not in the clubhouse, therefore who am I to say what happened. Young men of his age tend to make foolish mistakes from time to time. Perhaps he is arrogant. I probably would be too. Who cares? All I want to know is, can he help this team or not? As a Sox fan that is my concern.

Now if he was beating his wife, or beating up little kids, doing drugs.....then I have a problem with that. Leaving a game early....slap on the wrist, don't do it again. Done.

SoxOnTop
06-17-2004, 07:38 AM
he'd lost for the sox worse than that before. the one has nothing to do with the other. his reasons for leaving have nothing to do with 'tough makeup'.
too many people act like they really know just what happened and why.
What exactly do you know about his reasons for leaving that I don't? It's not like I've spoken to the kid, but I didn't hear anything about a family emergency which would obviously explain his departure.

Yes, this was not the first time he'd had as bad outing for the Sox, so he should have understood that he was expected to hang around.

hold2dibber
06-17-2004, 09:09 AM
This has been discussed before, but it is not like Rauch has been angelic up until this past incident. I am not judging what they should do with him, but I don't think it is accurate to look at this as a one-time incident. It is more of a pattern, I am afraid.
But I still don't see what that has to do with his ability to get hitters out? I don't see the connection. He is mowing 'em down in AAA right now, and he mowed 'em down in '00, despite his "less than angelic" make-up. So who cares?

hold2dibber
06-17-2004, 09:10 AM
Ok, maybe it's not a fact but it's probably most likely. He's succeeding in the minors but imo he won't succeed in the big leagues with the sox, I hope I'm wrong but as of right now I'd rather him be used as the centerpiece of a deal that could land Garcia.
Explain what has happened to make you think that he won't succeed in the big leagues with the Sox. That's what I don't get.

gosox41
06-17-2004, 09:52 AM
I'm not angry at all. The fact is he won't be able to succeed with the sox, he needs a change of scenery. The better he pitches the more and more likely it could be to use him as a centerpiece around a deal. Gosox41, leave it to you to take a thread about Jon Rauch and get a bashing of kw in.

From blob:What do you call a 94 MPH fastball that doesn't break???
A billy koch fastball.:D:
I just call them as I see them. :tongue:

Seriously, I've been an advocate of using Rauch as our fifth starter since the beginning of the season ahead of Grilli and whoever. It's time to make a decision. There is a gaping hole in the #5 spot in the rotation. Rauch has been damn good at AAA> Do you give him an extended chance to pitch in the majors or dump him for leaving the team early?

The guy is a 6 year minor leaguer. It's time to make a decision on him. Either KW has got to trade him while he's pitching great or bring him up. But leaving him in the minors is kind of stupid.

And for the record, I would trade Rauch for the right deal. As you know I will give my opinions an any and all deals KW makes at the time they are made and not a year from now. And it would be ignorant for anyone to expect me to automatically bash KW. I bash what I think are the bad deals and will continue to do so. If it's good I'll praise him.

For the record (maybe you're reading too much Randar) I do give JW credit. Please read my posts on the Everett trade and the Alomar trade. I didn't think the Alomar trade was as significant an addition but show my where I bashed KW. Then see what I wrote about the Colon trade. I praised the trade. I didn't rip on KW for Shingo, though I did call it a minor move seeing as how he is a middle reliever.

And haven't I been saying that KW does a much better job drafting offensive players then he does pitching. Do you want to debate that issue? Did I not give him credit for Borchard, Sweeney, Reed, and Anderson and say he should play to his strengths the first 5 rounds of the draft?


Bob

Flight #24
06-17-2004, 10:53 AM
If there's anyone out there who was hard on Rauch for leaving early, but was happy to see us go get Everett or Robbie Alomar or Belle or Cordero, you ought to think about it a bit more.
None of those guys with the possible exception of Belle was a problem for his teammates, all of their "issues" were with management, media, fans, or (in Alomar's case) - umps. In fact, Everett was supposedly as exceptional teammate, and was the mentor for the young players in Texas prior to the trade.

In Albert's case, I think his hitting prowess was significantly greater than any clubhouse impact that he may have had (see Bonds, Barry).

Meanwhile, Rauch basically created a situation where his teammates had to answer for his poor performance. That's a bad clubhouse situation and from the comments by players is something that they took pretty seriously.

Like it or not, if you have a negative impact in the clubhouse, you'd better have some pretty awesome impact on the field. If you're already negative on the field, then you'd better do everything you can to be positive in the clubhouse or you're asking for trouble.

Blob
06-17-2004, 11:06 AM
Fastballs arent suppose to break. that is what a breaking ball is for. now a fastball that doesnt have movement would have been more appropriate.
Next time I'll get it right...

OEO Magglio
06-17-2004, 11:08 AM
Explain what has happened to make you think that he won't succeed in the big leagues with the Sox. That's what I don't get.In my opinion he's worn out prospect status with the white sox and has warn out his welcome with the white sox. Doesn't mean it's going to happen but I just think he needs a change of scenery. The best thing to do with Jon now is use him as trade bait. If he's dealing in aaa use him to get Freddy Garcia.

Randar68
06-17-2004, 11:32 AM
None of those guys with the possible exception of Belle was a problem for his teammates, all of their "issues" were with management, media, fans, or (in Alomar's case) - umps. In fact, Everett was supposedly as exceptional teammate, and was the mentor for the young players in Texas prior to the trade.

In Albert's case, I think his hitting prowess was significantly greater than any clubhouse impact that he may have had (see Bonds, Barry).

Meanwhile, Rauch basically created a situation where his teammates had to answer for his poor performance. That's a bad clubhouse situation and from the comments by players is something that they took pretty seriously.

Like it or not, if you have a negative impact in the clubhouse, you'd better have some pretty awesome impact on the field. If you're already negative on the field, then you'd better do everything you can to be positive in the clubhouse or you're asking for trouble.
Why are we still talking about this? Hasn't the KW hush-hush told you anything? There was clearly a misunderstanding between he and management. When he get's pulled from the game, goes into the clubhouse to blow off some steam, sees that someone else has packed all his stuff up, and has a plane ticket sitting in his locker, with his friends and family all in town to see him pitch, he left...

What would you do? Hard to judge someone when you can't walk a mile in their shoes, but some here love to do it anyways.

Flight #24
06-17-2004, 11:38 AM
Why are we still talking about this?
That's pretty much what we do!

Hasn't the KW hush-hush told you anything? There was clearly a misunderstanding between he and management. When he get's pulled from the game, goes into the clubhouse to blow off some steam, sees that someone else has packed all his stuff up, and has a plane ticket sitting in his locker, with his friends and family all in town to see him pitch, he left...
I don't read KW's "hush-hush" as anything more than 1)not piling on the kid and making his life MORE difficult since he is still a member of the Organization, and 2)not further reducing his trade value. It certainly isn't any tacit or explicit acceptance of his actions.

And regardless of what his locker situation was like, I still don't think you leave mid-game. That's one of the most basic principles of team ball that's present at every level from HS on up. Jon should know better.

What would you do? Hard to judge someone when you can't walk a mile in their shoes, but some here love to do it anyways.Isn't that what 99% of chat on the board is? Judging a GM's actions, judging a manager's moves, judging a player's performance and actions. I'm not advocating slamming Jon's character, but IMO it's fair game on a message board to judge his actions and estimate what it means for his future with the team or organization.

But that's just IMO, don't judge it unless you've walked a mile in my shoes!:)

Randar68
06-17-2004, 11:53 AM
That's pretty much what we do!
Isn't that what 99% of chat on the board is? Judging a GM's actions, judging a manager's moves, judging a player's performance and actions. I'm not advocating slamming Jon's character, but IMO it's fair game on a message board to judge his actions and estimate what it means for his future with the team or organization.
Unfortunately, many here have taken to slamming Jon as a person and his character. That is who/what I was directing that toward.

hold2dibber
06-17-2004, 11:53 AM
In my opinion he's worn out prospect status with the white sox and has warn out his welcome with the white sox. Doesn't mean it's going to happen but I just think he needs a change of scenery. The best thing to do with Jon now is use him as trade bait. If he's dealing in aaa use him to get Freddy Garcia.
I don't mean to belabor the point, but I still don't understand why you think he can't succeed with the Sox. Saying he has "worn out his welcome" seems to me to suggest that others in the organization don't like him and don't want him around. But that's not the same as saying "he can't succeed here" is it? You may be right that people in the organization are sick of him and don't want him around. But that sure isn't stopping him from kicking arse in AAA and I don't see why that would prevent him from succeeding in the majors.

None of which is to say that I wouldn't deal him in a heart beat for the right guy. As someone else posted here, his trade value is probably relatively high right now (notwithstanding KW's dumb ass public comments ripping Rauch after the club house departure incident). Either deal him, or give him a legit shot at the no. 5 spot (e.g., at least 4 or 5 starts).

minastirith67
06-17-2004, 12:04 PM
Gee how forgiving.

I don't know how poor Jon will ever sleep at night knowing you hate him.

He made a mistake. Big deal. Get over it. He was thrown into a situation where he pitched once in 9 days IIRC, with very little preparation. He left early because he was presumably going straight back down to AAA right after the game anyway. He did call the postgame show and apologize for his actions saying that it was a misunderstanding on his part. Maybe he didn't know he owed you a personal apology. I'm sure he'll get right on that.

Anyway this was a nice topic about a month ago. Feel free to go back and peruse the 800-or-so post thread regarding this topic if you still feel you are owed your pound of flesh.

Glass houses.....(with respect to Randar)
The only apology that I expected was one given to either KW or the White Sox organization as a whole, and I don't think he did that. As the post below yours says, Rauch has a history of stupid moves and alienation of teammates. His latest disrespect is icing on the cake.

3Pete
06-17-2004, 12:10 PM
If he's pitching well, call him up. Chemistry doesn't mean a thing, no matter what the just plain lucky Twins say. The Sox could use an extra 5th starter or at least good reliever.

Randar68
06-17-2004, 12:15 PM
The only apology that I expected was one given to either KW or the White Sox organization as a whole, and I don't think he did that. As the post below yours says, Rauch has a history of stupid moves and alienation of teammates. His latest disrespect is icing on the cake.
HUH??? And you know this how? People can stop with the heresay and ignorant comments considering they don't have a clue what has happenned behind the scenes.

:whoflungpoo

hold2dibber
06-17-2004, 01:41 PM
The only apology that I expected was one given to either KW or the White Sox organization as a whole, and I don't think he did that. As the post below yours says, Rauch has a history of stupid moves and alienation of teammates. His latest disrespect is icing on the cake.
How the heck would you know whether he apologized to KW or anyone else in the organization? That's nuts.

minastirith67
06-17-2004, 02:04 PM
How the heck would you know whether he apologized to KW or anyone else in the organization? That's nuts.
You're right in that it should have stayed with the organization the whole time. Since KW foolishly made it public, Rauch really had nowhere to go.

I base my personal dislike of Rauch on what i've heard from other posters and his oft-cited incident. As that is hearsay, I apologize for not basing my opinion off of the facts. Something about him puts me off, and the various things I hear about him don't help his image.

To those who know-What has Jon Rauch done (besides the infamous leaving-early episode against Anaheim) to be a bad teammate and a selfishly petty individual with the various minor league clubs he's been in? Personal experiences, published reports, and other reliable sources are acceptable.

If it turns out that he really is a good and respectful teammate, I will get off of his back and apologize to everyone. I realize that some people on this board really like Rauch...I guess I'd like to know why before I judge this time.

maurice
06-17-2004, 02:58 PM
:KW
"He's not a grinder."


It was reported that Rauch apologized to KW and everybody else who would listen within 24 hours of the incident.

jeremyb1
06-17-2004, 04:59 PM
Isn't that what 99% of chat on the board is? Judging a GM's actions, judging a manager's moves, judging a player's performance and actions. I'm not advocating slamming Jon's character, but IMO it's fair game on a message board to judge his actions and estimate what it means for his future with the team or organization.

I agree with you as far as performance, front office decision making, and even on the field action in some cases, however I draw a line at issues of morality. What is right and wrong is a much more complex answer with far less clear answers than whether or not a move helps improve the team or whether a player should've attempted a steal.

I'm curious what those still extremely upset with Rauch feel his thought process was. If you think he was just clueless and therefore didn't know better, I don't understand the point of holding a grudge. Personally, I find it quite plausible he simply misunderstood. Who hasn't misunderstood instructions from their supervisor at some point in their lives? People seem to believe he knew he was doing something incredibly inappropriate and disrespectful and yet was so angry about his start that he decided to do so anyway. That's certainly the one scenario that makes him incredibly guilty and might cast doubts about his future in the organization. My question though is why would he do such a thing? Why would any minor league player struggling to form a major league career make things so difficult for himself? If he knew what he did was wrong he knew his teammates, manager, GM, etc. would be very upset and it could have serious negative consequences for his career. It just doesn't really add up in my opinion.

Flight #24
06-17-2004, 05:06 PM
I agree with you as far as performance, front office decision making, and even on the field action in some cases, however I draw a line at issues of morality. What is right and wrong is a much more complex answer with far less clear answers than whether or not a move helps improve the team or whether a player should've attempted a steal.

I'm curious what those still extremely upset with Rauch feel his thought process was. If you think he was just clueless and therefore didn't know better, I don't understand the point of holding a grudge. Personally, I find it quite plausible he simply misunderstood. Who hasn't misunderstood instructions from their supervisor at some point in their lives? People seem to believe he knew he was doing something incredibly inappropriate and disrespectful and yet was so angry about his start that he decided to do so anyway. That's certainly the one scenario that makes him incredibly guilty and might cast doubts about his future in the organization. My question though is why would he do such a thing? Why would any minor league player struggling to form a major league career make things so difficult for himself? If he knew what he did was wrong he knew his teammates, manager, GM, etc. would be very upset and it could have serious negative consequences for his career. It just doesn't really add up in my opinion.
My own opinion is that staying with the team is a pretty basic point that's taught at all levels of the sport. To me, it sounds a lot like a guy who was POd that he pitched poorly, figured he was getting sent down, and left to be with his family - not thinking about the team at all. That's not being clueless, it's not really caring about the team in the first place - just yourself.

That's usually what the case is with "bad attitude" players (not that I'm saying that Jon is that, one incident isn't enough). Bad guys don't really think that they're bad, they just don't really consider the impact of their actions on others. Case in point: that schmoe who ran over the kid for the foul ball in Texas. I don't think he said "I'll run the kid over to get that ball", he jsut saw the ball, thought "I want that", and went for it without thinking about anything else.

As I said, just my .02. Regardless, I think if Jon's apologized to the team & GM and shown that he understands what he did wrong, and if he proves himself worthy of a callup (which he seems to be doing), then he deserves one.

beckett21
06-17-2004, 07:23 PM
Unfortunately, many here have taken to slamming Jon as a person and his character. That is who/what I was directing that toward.
Randar I agree 1000% with all of your posts in this thread.

My biggest beef has been with this character assasination which has gotten a life of it's own in regards to this foolish incident.

Personally, I tend to reserve HATE for terrorists, murderers, rapists, wife-beaters, and the like. I see no reason to hate Jon Rauch because he left a game early, no matter what his reasoning was. That is a ridiculous assertion to me.

And again, as you have mentioned, anyone who was not there does not know what happened. People can speculate all they want, but only a select few actually know EXACTLY what happened. Either he can play or he can't. I'll judge him on those merits, not on whether or not he qualifies for choirboy status. If someone says he has no talent, I can accept that; but to hate him over this incident which has not been fully explained is ludicrous.




As an aside, I just saw that *troll* tag for the first time, and it is scaring the living bejeezus out of me! :o:

beckett21
06-17-2004, 07:25 PM
It was reported that Rauch apologized to KW and everybody else who would listen within 24 hours of the incident.
As usual, the initial episode was sensationalized to epic proportions, and the apology was given nary a mention.




That troll thingy is hideous, yet I can't seem to stop staring at it.

FarWestChicago
06-17-2004, 07:28 PM
That troll thingy is hideous, yet I can't seem to stop staring at it.http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/troll.gif

I'm looking at you, Doc.

Randar68
06-17-2004, 07:29 PM
http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/troll.gif

I'm looking at you, Doc.
I thought he meant this one:

:troll

beckett21
06-17-2004, 07:30 PM
http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/troll.gif

I'm looking at you, Doc.
:o:.... :(:.... :whiner:

:)

FarWestChicago
06-17-2004, 07:31 PM
I thought he meant this one:I think he meant new school troll. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

beckett21
06-17-2004, 07:35 PM
I think he meant new school troll. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
They are both very frightening in their own respects, but yes I was referring to that new school troll....at first glance I thought it was supposed to be Southpaw!

Don't get me wrong, though, I'm quickly becoming fond of the new guy! :redneck

jeremyb1
06-17-2004, 07:35 PM
My own opinion is that staying with the team is a pretty basic point that's taught at all levels of the sport. To me, it sounds a lot like a guy who was POd that he pitched poorly, figured he was getting sent down, and left to be with his family - not thinking about the team at all. That's not being clueless, it's not really caring about the team in the first place - just yourself.

That's usually what the case is with "bad attitude" players (not that I'm saying that Jon is that, one incident isn't enough). Bad guys don't really think that they're bad, they just don't really consider the impact of their actions on others.

I feel like you're contradicting yourself. If staying with the team is a fundamental component of being on a baseball team whether it is little league or the majors then how could Rauch simply not think about it? If staying with the team is so incredibly clear that it is such an awful violation it couldn't have escaped Rauch's mind. It's not like you muder someone in cold blood because you simply weren't thinking about consequences of your actions for others. Either it's not that serious an offense or Rauch intentionally committed a major no no.

idseer
06-17-2004, 08:44 PM
:o:.... :(:.... :whiner:


one of the best uses of these smilies ever!

Rex Hudler
06-17-2004, 08:58 PM
You are obviously in a position where you have access to inside information and/or players. I don't know you Rex, and maybe you have said before what your connection is with the Barons, or maybe you can't. If you did sorry if I missed it. I'll have to take your comments/opinions at face value, and there is obviously no way I can counter them.

That said, all I have to go on as a *common fan* is what I see on t.v. and what I can glean from the media. We all know how slanted the media can be. Take it for what it's worth, I guess. With a grain of salt.

No offense here, but I see no reason for me to hate Jon Rauch just because you tell me how miserable of a person he is. I don't know you, I don't know him. You say it is a pattern with him, and you obviously have your reasons. To me in my world, it is all heresy. I cannot prove or refute any of it. Based on the one incident which just occured, to me that was not a big deal. And that's the one which has been so blown up here. Perhaps you have listed other reasons here in the past, I don't expect you to re-hash them every other week just for my benefit. Going on what little information I have to go on, the whole thing was blown out of proportion IMO. And this is the only incident I am aware of.

Everyone has their own opinion. People usually also have agendas in expressing their opinions, so I choose to believe what is plausible to me.

I don't know the man, I was not in the clubhouse, therefore who am I to say what happened. Young men of his age tend to make foolish mistakes from time to time. Perhaps he is arrogant. I probably would be too. Who cares? All I want to know is, can he help this team or not? As a Sox fan that is my concern.

Now if he was beating his wife, or beating up little kids, doing drugs.....then I have a problem with that. Leaving a game early....slap on the wrist, don't do it again. Done.
No offense taken. I never said I hated the guy, for what that is worth.

Suffice it to say that I go to most games at the Hoover Met and a few on the road. I have gotten to know people in the Barons org. as well as the Sox org. over the years. I am pretty careful about what I post, but I am very comfortable with the information I get. You can choose to agree with what I say or not, that is your choice. I am not here to say that I know everything, because I clearly do not. I just get juicy tidbits on occasion.

beckett21
06-17-2004, 09:10 PM
No offense taken. I never said I hated the guy, for what that is worth.

Suffice it to say that I go to most games at the Hoover Met and a few on the road. I have gotten to know people in the Barons org. as well as the Sox org. over the years. I am pretty careful about what I post, but I am very comfortable with the information I get. You can choose to agree with what I say or not, that is your choice. I am not here to say that I know everything, because I clearly do not. I just get juicy tidbits on occasion.
Rex,

I appreciate the clarification. As I said, I don't know you or what you know, so I am not refuting your posts so to speak. You are in a advantageous position compared to most people here as far as discussing said player's character, apparently. Not saying I don't believe you, but I certainly don't believe all of the media spin put on this situation either.

I can only possibly know for sure what I see for myself. The rest is conjecture. But I do respect your opinions and willingness to share inside information/anecdotal evidence. I'm not questioning your credibility as a source. I'm just taking everything with a grain of salt, and forming my own opinion. But I do take exception with people who only know what KW said and what was initially reported as *gospel* and crucifying the guy for it. I just think he took a lot of unwarranted abuse here. My opinion. (and I am not implying you did this; but others have)

Please continue to share your information as you see fit---hopefully you see I was not taking a dig at you. I appreciate any insider insights. :D:

A. Cavatica
06-17-2004, 09:27 PM
Not speaking for A. Cavatica, just my $0.02 take on his post. Take it FWIW.
You got it.

The examples I cited were guilty of far worse than Rauch. Yet because they had some history of prior success in the big leagues, the Sox organization overlooked their radioactive pasts and in some cases even promoted them to the fans!

Pedro and Rocket both had well-publicized incidents where they left the park after being knocked out of games. They got away with it because they're Hall of Famers; if their teammates resented the incidents, they shut up about them.

The double standard is not fair, but it is real, and Rauch deserved to be raked over the coals for leaving early. He doesn't deserve to be written off.

Rex Hudler
06-17-2004, 09:39 PM
Rex,

I appreciate the clarification. As I said, I don't know you or what you know, so I am not refuting your posts so to speak. You are in a advantageous position compared to most people here as far as discussing said player's character, apparently. Not saying I don't believe you, but I certainly don't believe all of the media spin put on this situation either.

I can only possibly know for sure what I see for myself. The rest is conjecture. But I do respect your opinions and willingness to share inside information/anecdotal evidence. I'm not questioning your credibility as a source. I'm just taking everything with a grain of salt, and forming my own opinion. But I do take exception with people who only know what KW said and what was initially reported as *gospel* and crucifying the guy for it. I just think he took a lot of unwarranted abuse here. My opinion. (and I am not implying you did this; but others have)

Please continue to share your information as you see fit---hopefully you see I was not taking a dig at you. I appreciate any insider insights. :D:
Sounds more than fair to me.... FWIW, I think this past situation with Rauch was overblown, if not in the media, at the very least amongst Sox fans on message boards. I just think Rauch seems to irritate enough people to cause himself to fight an uphill battle. It's not something that can't be overcome, but he won't get endlesss chances in my mind.

A. Cavatica
06-17-2004, 09:59 PM
None of those guys with the possible exception of Belle was a problem for his teammates, all of their "issues" were with management, media, fans, or (in Alomar's case) - umps. In fact, Everett was supposedly as exceptional teammate, and was the mentor for the young players in Texas prior to the trade.
Understand that I put down the first "problem" players who came to mind. However, they've all had problems with teammates or coaches.

Belle: Issues with media, fans, world in general. "Bud Black, a Cleveland Indians teammate, nicknamed Belle 'Snapper.' Others simply called him crazy. Belle could flare up at any time, even at friends, and often turned violent. 'Albert's snapped at me. He's gone off at other coaches,' said Indians coach Dave Nelson in 1996. 'You never know which Albert's going to show up.'" -- http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Belle_Albert.html

Everett: Loathed and feared in the Boston clubhouse. "Everett has been the cancer of this team since he came aboard last winter. When teammates, who request to remain nameless when discussing the issue, struggle to find positive things to say about their star centerfielder, there is a serious problem that needs to be assessed. Everett's best description -­ a loose cannon -­ fits him perfectly. Let's review. He embarrassed the team when he blew his top and bumped an umpire and was suspended for 10 games in the middle of July for doing so. He lashed out at his manager, telling reporters in the locker room that he "never liked that guy anyway" in front of teammates. He howled at one of the Boston Globe's most prominent writers, Gordon Edes, after Edes simply asked if he was going to play. And most recently, he almost came to blows with Darren Lewis, one of the classiest and most respected players in the game." -- http://www.barnstablepatriot.com/09-28-00-news/frye.html

Cordero: Issues with wife, police. Also, "Cordero at one point in his career was considered a clubhouse nuisance. Not that he didnít get along with his fellow teammates, but rather that his famous temper would occasionally cause problems between him and the manager." -- http://marlins.theinsiders.com/2/242267.html

Alomar: "Roberto Alomar has eventually worn out his welcome every place he's played, and has been involved in several controversial episodes which have tarnished his image. With the O's on September 27, 1996, he was called out on strikes by home plate umpire John Hirschbeck. Alomar responded with a tirade, and spit in the arbiter's face, drawing an ejection, and later a fine and suspension by Major League Baseball. The spitting incident hung like a cloud over Alomar for the remainder of his time in Baltimore, as opposing fans booed him frequently. Later, Alomar complained that his teammates were not retaliating when he was thrown at by opposing teams, even though he acknowledged several of the pitches were unintentional. In 1999, when Indians' teammate Manny Ramirez was accused of using a corked bat, Alomar stirred controversy by suggesting other players, specifically Derek Jeter, may also be cheating. In Cleveland he blasted ex-teammates Kenny Lofton and Albert Belle after they left the team, and was vocal about John Rocker's arrival in 2001. His arrival in Arizona in 2004 marked his third team in four years." -- http://www.thebaseballpage.com/past/pp/alomarroberto/

Flight #24
06-18-2004, 08:41 AM
Understand that I put down the first "problem" players who came to mind. However, they've all had problems with teammates or coaches.

Belle: Issues with media, fans, world in general. "Bud Black, a Cleveland Indians teammate, nicknamed Belle 'Snapper.' Others simply called him crazy. Belle could flare up at any time, even at friends, and often turned violent. 'Albert's snapped at me. He's gone off at other coaches,' said Indians coach Dave Nelson in 1996. 'You never know which Albert's going to show up.'" -- http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Belle_Albert.html

Everett: Loathed and feared in the Boston clubhouse. "Everett has been the cancer of this team since he came aboard last winter. When teammates, who request to remain nameless when discussing the issue, struggle to find positive things to say about their star centerfielder, there is a serious problem that needs to be assessed. Everett's best description -­ a loose cannon -­ fits him perfectly. Let's review. He embarrassed the team when he blew his top and bumped an umpire and was suspended for 10 games in the middle of July for doing so. He lashed out at his manager, telling reporters in the locker room that he "never liked that guy anyway" in front of teammates. He howled at one of the Boston Globe's most prominent writers, Gordon Edes, after Edes simply asked if he was going to play. And most recently, he almost came to blows with Darren Lewis, one of the classiest and most respected players in the game." -- http://www.barnstablepatriot.com/09-28-00-news/frye.html

Cordero: Issues with wife, police. Also, "Cordero at one point in his career was considered a clubhouse nuisance. Not that he didnít get along with his fellow teammates, but rather that his famous temper would occasionally cause problems between him and the manager." -- http://marlins.theinsiders.com/2/242267.html

Alomar: "Roberto Alomar has eventually worn out his welcome every place he's played, and has been involved in several controversial episodes which have tarnished his image. With the O's on September 27, 1996, he was called out on strikes by home plate umpire John Hirschbeck. Alomar responded with a tirade, and spit in the arbiter's face, drawing an ejection, and later a fine and suspension by Major League Baseball. The spitting incident hung like a cloud over Alomar for the remainder of his time in Baltimore, as opposing fans booed him frequently. Later, Alomar complained that his teammates were not retaliating when he was thrown at by opposing teams, even though he acknowledged several of the pitches were unintentional. In 1999, when Indians' teammate Manny Ramirez was accused of using a corked bat, Alomar stirred controversy by suggesting other players, specifically Derek Jeter, may also be cheating. In Cleveland he blasted ex-teammates Kenny Lofton and Albert Belle after they left the team, and was vocal about John Rocker's arrival in 2001. His arrival in Arizona in 2004 marked his third team in four years." -- http://www.thebaseballpage.com/past/pp/alomarroberto/
Not sure why we're still arguing this since nothing you posted contradicts my points.

Belle: Yes, he had problems, occasionally with teammates. But his performance more than drowned out anything (se Bonds, Barry).

Everett: Had problems in Boston, but in Texas and before Boston (Houston, IIRC) was not a problem. In fact in Texas he was supposedly an EXCELLENT teammate and mentor for young players. And most of the notes you cite above relate to problems with umps or management, not players.

Cordero: "Not that he didnít get along with his fellow teammates, but rather that his famous temper would occasionally cause problems between him and the manager" - that basically supports my contention that he wasn't a problem with teammates.

Alomar: Most of the "worn out his welcome" is with management, not with the team. Also - he was acquired because it was felt any potential clubhouse issues would be mitigated by his brother being here.

None of these is at all similar to the way Rauch left his teammates out to dry. That's the "problem" he'll have to overcome. And from the quotes in today's Cub-Times, it's still an issue.




''I know he would have to feel pretty weird,'' veteran shortstop Jose Valentin said Thursday. ''You can't show up your teammates like that. He would have to come in here and apologize. ''The guy probably wants to come here and do his best. I don't know how his teammates will respond. The damage is done. He is the one in a tough spot right now.''



Though players seem upset, the general feeling is Rauch could return -- after he explains himself. ''This is a job like any other job,'' Valentin said. ''You get paid for it, you're not doing it for free. If you were doing it for free, then you could do whatever you want. It's unacceptable, no matter where you play.''



But is leaving before the final out acceptable at any level?

''It's pretty universal that you don't do that,'' Konerko said.

So it seems like 1)it is an issue for the players, and 2)whoever Rauch has or hasn't apologized to, he hasn't done it for the guys who matter most: his teammates.



That said, I believe that he should get another shot, but he'll certainly have to show some real contrition in the clubhouse upon his arrival and show by his actions that he's learned from his mistake.

Hopefully it won't even be an issue because Munoz will make the "revolving door" 5th starter obsolete. More likely, we'll have traded for someone before Arnie can make start #2.

Randar68
06-18-2004, 11:20 AM
So it seems like 1)it is an issue for the players, and 2)whoever Rauch has or hasn't apologized to, he hasn't done it for the guys who matter most: his teammates.
What number do you wear in the clubhouse? *****!

Flight #24
06-18-2004, 11:30 AM
What number do you wear in the clubhouse? *****!
Don't need to be in the clubhouse to read quotes from players. I believe that Jose IS in the clubhouse with some regularity, so again - here's HIS take

''I know he would have to feel pretty weird,'' veteran shortstop Jose Valentin said Thursday. ''You can't show up your teammates like that. He would have to come in here and apologize.
Another guy who I believe has been around the clubhouse a bit is Paul Konerko

''It's pretty universal that you don't do that,'' Konerko said.
Note Jose's usage of "would have to", implying that he has not already done so.

Randar - are you somehow interpreting these direct player quotes as guys saying "it's no big deal"? It's not like I'm conjecturing anything or even reading into it.

Randar68
06-18-2004, 11:46 AM
Don't need to be in the clubhouse to read quotes from players. I believe that Jose IS in the clubhouse with some regularity, so again - here's HIS take


Another guy who I believe has been around the clubhouse a bit is Paul Konerko


Note Jose's usage of "would have to", implying that he has not already done so.

Randar - are you somehow interpreting these direct player quotes as guys saying "it's no big deal"? It's not like I'm conjecturing anything or even reading into it.
First of all, none of the players in the clubhouse know what dialog transpired between management and Rauch.

Secondly, unless these are recent quotes, some significant time has passed since they were transcribed

Thirdly, of course he would have to apologize, in person, in private, to the whole team. It is AWFULLY hard to do that from Charlotte.

If you want to keep bitching on and on about it, lock youself in a padded cell, IT HAS BEEN COVERED...

Flight #24
06-18-2004, 01:58 PM
First of all, none of the players in the clubhouse know what dialog transpired between management and Rauch.Which is not anything that I touched on - what's your point here?

Secondly, unless these are recent quotes, some significant time has passed since they were transcribed.Ummm.....Those comments were from players yesterday and reported in today's paper.

If you want to keep bitching on and on about it, lock youself in a padded cell, IT HAS BEEN COVERED...Where do you see me bitching about it? The comment was in response to a discussion on a comparison of what Rauch did with other "transgressions" by players. In fact, if you re-read my comments, I say he SHOULD get another chance but that he's got some clubhouse hurdles to overcome. That's a statement of fact based on recent, direct quotes from players.

You think it's old news, don't read the thread. I was responding to something from Cavatica (posted yesterday), not you.