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View Full Version : Glad we got rid Colon.


SoxBoy14
06-13-2004, 12:29 PM
Bartolo is 4-5 with and era of 6.24. That's worse than our number 3 and 4 pitchers. I'm glad the Sox didn't pay the 5 million to keep him. Anyone else concur?

Brian26
06-13-2004, 12:39 PM
Bartolo is 4-5 with and era of 6.24. That's worse than our number 3 and 4 pitchers. I'm glad the Sox ddin't pay the 5 million to keep him. Anyone else concur?
That's on a GOOD team, too.

It's hard to say. Colon would still look nice in our starting five as opposed to the guys we've had coming out of the 5-spot. I'm curious why he's been hit so hard this year. Are people catching up with his heat?

A.T. Money
06-13-2004, 12:42 PM
I'm glad he's gone too. He's just been getting stomped this year.

He started off bad with us too, but that was due to lack of run support last year.

This year, no excuse. Angels overpaid.

JB98
06-13-2004, 12:48 PM
Colon has gotten fat and lazy, and his back is acting up on him. He's the classic case of an athlete who got his money, then figured he didn't have to put in the work anymore. I'm glad he's gone.

HomerCoach
06-13-2004, 12:50 PM
How was he ever good?

mdep524
06-13-2004, 12:55 PM
That's on a GOOD team, too.

It's hard to say. Colon would still look nice in our starting five as opposed to the guys we've had coming out of the 5-spot. I'm curious why he's been hit so hard this year. Are people catching up with his heat?
Out of curiosity, I watched him pitch last night against the Cubs and he looked AWFUL. Not only were the Cubs catching up to his fastball, but he seemed afraid to throw any breaking balls and, as Steve Stone also pointed out, he has no off speed pitch to throw hitters off his heater. So he is, in a way, like a Bily Koch lite. Hittable fastball, poor location, no off speed pitch, etc. (excpet Bartolo's fastball is better than Koch's- it has some movement and it's faster).

Anyways, the point is I am glad we passed on him for the money he was being offered. We would have really regretted sinking that much money into him.

Jjav829
06-13-2004, 12:56 PM
That's on a GOOD team, too.

It's hard to say. Colon would still look nice in our starting five as opposed to the guys we've had coming out of the 5-spot. I'm curious why he's been hit so hard this year. Are people catching up with his heat?He's trying too hard to strike guys out. That's one of his biggest problems. He's getting ahead of guys 0-2, 1-2 but not putting them away. Part of it is because of hitters catching up to his fastball. When you're constantly relying on that fastball to finish hitters, they're sit on it and good enough hitters will hit it. He isn't making use of his curve or changeup to finish hitters, but just throwing heat. I have to wonder if the weight is catching up to him as well.

DrCrawdad
06-13-2004, 12:57 PM
Large Bart has given up 18 HRs, leading baseball in that negative stat. It maybe that all those innings that Large Bart logged last year and in prevous seasons have taken a toll on him.

johnny_mostil
06-13-2004, 01:12 PM
Out of curiosity, I watched him pitch last night against the Cubs and he looked AWFUL. Not only were the Cubs catching up to his fastball, but he seemed afraid to throw any breaking balls and, as Steve Stone also pointed out, he has no off speed pitch to throw hitters off his heater. So he is, in a way, like a Bily Koch lite. Hittable fastball, poor location, no off speed pitch, etc. (excpet Bartolo's fastball is better than Koch's- it has some movement and it's faster).

Apart from quibbling with your thesis that Colon's fastball "has some movement" and "is faster" (an unlikely combination since velocity above 90mph severely reduces movement because the airflow around the ball is completely turbulent at those speeds rather than turbulent on one side and smooth on the other), and apart from pointing out that Colon has, in the past, had a serviceable changeup and that Stone was literally talking out of his league, I agree with you.

Koch's fastball will lack movement because he throws too hard to have any. 95 is a no-man's land because the major league hitter can still catch up with it but it's going to be pretty much arrow straight no matter who throws it. Koch needs a 99mph fastball to be successful. He has Rob Dibble disease -- a pitcher who relies on straight heat cannot lose even 3-4mph in velocity without accepting that he must re-learn how to pitch. He would be better off throwing 88mph two seamers because those can still ride in and out. At 94 the ball enters a different physical range and the difference in air pressure from the rotation is actually reduced. [See Robert Adair's Physics of Baseball book for more information...]

Colon's location was much better two years ago with Montreal -- it was pretty much perfect. My guess is he hasn't quite figured out how to control his new girth and his mechanics are messed up. He probably has stuck the change in his pocket because he can't throw it for strikes. Usually, this leads to injury rather than adjustment, but we'll see.

As long as Bartolo is downing cases of cerveza and eating at the Argentine restaurant every night, he's going to continue to balloon like the Fat Man in The Meaning of Life. Hide the mints in the clubhouse.

Huisj
06-13-2004, 01:31 PM
Apart from quibbling with your thesis that Colon's fastball "has some movement" and "is faster" (an unlikely combination since velocity above 90mph severely reduces movement because the airflow around the ball is completely turbulent at those speeds rather than turbulent on one side and smooth on the other), and apart from pointing out that Colon has, in the past, had a serviceable changeup and that Stone was literally talking out of his league, I agree with you.

Koch's fastball will lack movement because he throws too hard to have any. 95 is a no-man's land because the major league hitter can still catch up with it but it's going to be pretty much arrow straight no matter who throws it. Koch needs a 99mph fastball to be successful. He has Rob Dibble disease -- a pitcher who relies on straight heat cannot lose even 3-4mph in velocity without accepting that he must re-learn how to pitch. He would be better off throwing 88mph two seamers because those can still ride in and out. At 94 the ball enters a different physical range and the difference in air pressure from the rotation is actually reduced. [See Robert Adair's Physics of Baseball book for more information...]

Colon's location was much better two years ago with Montreal -- it was pretty much perfect. My guess is he hasn't quite figured out how to control his new girth and his mechanics are messed up. He probably has stuck the change in his pocket because he can't throw it for strikes. Usually, this leads to injury rather than adjustment, but we'll see.

As long as Bartolo is downing cases of cerveza and eating at the Argentine restaurant every night, he's going to continue to balloon like the Fat Man in The Meaning of Life. Hide the mints in the clubhouse.
actually i believe it is possible for someone to throw hard and have movement and for someone to throw slower and not have much movement. besides velocity, movement has lots to do (maybe even more) with the spin of the ball, because that contributes greatly to the way the air flows around the ball. It also has to do with the grip and the arm angle (which affect the angle of the spin and the alignment of the ball). I won't argue with you that generally when a pitcher tries to throw harder than he normal he loses some movement, but i will argue that just because a guy throws harder than someone else, it doesn't mean that he has less movement than that other person.

mdep524
06-13-2004, 01:54 PM
Apart from quibbling with your thesis that Colon's fastball "has some movement" and "is faster" (an unlikely combination since velocity above 90mph severely reduces movement because the airflow around the ball is completely turbulent at those speeds rather than turbulent on one side and smooth on the other), and apart from pointing out that Colon has, in the past, had a serviceable changeup and that Stone was literally talking out of his league, I agree with you.

Koch's fastball will lack movement because he throws too hard to have any. 95 is a no-man's land because the major league hitter can still catch up with it but it's going to be pretty much arrow straight no matter who throws it. Koch needs a 99mph fastball to be successful. He has Rob Dibble disease -- a pitcher who relies on straight heat cannot lose even 3-4mph in velocity without accepting that he must re-learn how to pitch. He would be better off throwing 88mph two seamers because those can still ride in and out. At 94 the ball enters a different physical range and the difference in air pressure from the rotation is actually reduced. [See Robert Adair's Physics of Baseball book for more information...]

Colon's location was much better two years ago with Montreal -- it was pretty much perfect. My guess is he hasn't quite figured out how to control his new girth and his mechanics are messed up. He probably has stuck the change in his pocket because he can't throw it for strikes. Usually, this leads to injury rather than adjustment, but we'll see.

As long as Bartolo is downing cases of cerveza and eating at the Argentine restaurant every night, he's going to continue to balloon like the Fat Man in The Meaning of Life. Hide the mints in the clubhouse.
Last year, Bartolo had nice movement on his fastball- his riding or rising fastball was his best pitch. Koch has literally nothing on his heater.

iwannago
06-13-2004, 02:28 PM
Bartolo is 4-5 with and era of 6.24. That's worse than our number 3 and 4 pitchers. I'm glad the Sox didn't pay the 5 million to keep him. Anyone else concur?
I thought it was 11 or 12 M. Plus if he would have been a bust we would have to wait along time to sign another high dollar FA.:)

white sox bill
06-13-2004, 02:30 PM
But with the Halo's, different team, different run suport, differnt pitching coach,catcher,game situation etc. Nobody really knows how well he would be doing w/us right now. Purely speckulation. But everyone's got very good points, glad we didn't pull a Billy Koch on this guy

TDog
06-13-2004, 02:32 PM
Some pitchers sign big contracts and aren't very good pitchers anymore. Colon may not be doing his Navarro impression, and there are other pitchers who sign big multi-year contracts who don't pitch so badly, but when an example like this comes along, it reinforces the views of the baseball people that you don't want to sign pitchers for big money and big years.

CanOfCorn
06-13-2004, 04:27 PM
And in related news, Sidney Ponson's ERA actually went up today.

Vs. San Francisco:

S Ponson (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5984) 6.2 13 H, 6 R 6 ER, 3 BB, 3 K 1 HR 110-69 6.60

1951Campbell
06-13-2004, 04:45 PM
And in related news, Sidney Ponson's ERA actually went up today.

Vs. San Francisco:

S Ponson (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5984) 6.2 13 H, 6 R 6 ER, 3 BB, 3 K 1 HR 110-69 6.60
:KW
"Admit it...I am a genius! Maggs, pass the churros."

TaylorStSox
06-13-2004, 04:55 PM
Colon's pitched an awful lot of innings in his career as well. He's always had the reputation of being a horse. I think that's taking it's toll more than anything else.

I haven't seen him enough to know whether it's his mechanics or a dead arm that's cost him to lose some of his stuff.

Colon vs. Koch
Some guys have heavy/weighty fastballs. It's like the opposite of a live bat. Colon threw a real heavy heater. Koch's, while being completely straight, has no weight. His 99 and Colon's 99 are somewhat different in that way. Colon will be much more likely to survive.

Also, Koch reminds me of a right handed Embree. They throw quick, straight fastballs. MLB hitters can handle those.

johnny_mostil
06-13-2004, 05:24 PM
actually i believe it is possible for someone to throw hard and have movement and for someone to throw slower and not have much movement. besides velocity, movement has lots to do (maybe even more) with the spin of the ball, because that contributes greatly to the way the air flows around the ball...

It does, but my point is that the Magnus effect (the force that makes the ball curve, move, whatever) which comes from the spin of the ball actually maximizes at around 70mph, because one side of the ball is in turbulent flow and the other in normal flow. At 95mph it is difficult to get any movement from the ball because both sides are in turbulent flow -- that is, the spin is no longer having the influence it does at 75 or even 88 mph. (Of course, at 88mph you need jiggawatts of power to accomplish what you're really trying to do...)

batmanZoSo
06-13-2004, 08:08 PM
It does, but my point is that the Magnus effect (the force that makes the ball curve, move, whatever) which comes from the spin of the ball actually maximizes at around 70mph, because one side of the ball is in turbulent flow and the other in normal flow. At 95mph it is difficult to get any movement from the ball because both sides are in turbulent flow -- that is, the spin is no longer having the influence it does at 75 or even 88 mph. (Of course, at 88mph you need jiggawatts of power to accomplish what you're really trying to do...)
He's a bum, plain and simple. He's still better than our fifth starter, whoever it is, but had we kept him we'd be totally screwed money-wise.

johnny_mostil
06-13-2004, 10:17 PM
He's (Colon) a bum, plain and simple. He's still better than our fifth starter, whoever it is, but had we kept him we'd be totally screwed money-wise.
The other name everybody wanted to go after was Ponson, and he's dog meat too.

elrod
06-13-2004, 10:29 PM
Colon looked AWFUL. He was throwing batting practice up there. I'm actually quite shocked how bad he is this year. I was really angry we didn't re-sign him so I won't take any "told you so" credit. But boy am I glad we didn't get stuck with him.

batmanZoSo
06-14-2004, 01:12 AM
The other name everybody wanted to go after was Ponson, and he's dog meat too.
I never wanted him. He's a lot like Bartolo, though he did drop a little weight.

It's nice when that "moves you don't make" axiom goes your way.

serena
06-14-2004, 02:12 AM
He supposedly has an ankle injury that has messed up his mechanics. (?)

bartmanisgod
06-14-2004, 02:16 AM
He supposedly has an ankle injury that has messed up his mechanics. (?)
He supposedly has a weight problem that has messed up his mechanics.

StockdaleForVeep
06-14-2004, 02:42 AM
Bartolo is 4-5 with and era of 6.24. That's worse than our number 3 and 4 pitchers. I'm glad the Sox didn't pay the 5 million to keep him. Anyone else concur?

His numbers are still better than all of our fifth starters combined.

SSN721
06-14-2004, 08:03 AM
His numbers are still better than all of our fifth starters combined.

Is that worth 11-12 mil a year for 3-4 years? I mean, this is his first year into this contract and he looks awful. If he is this bad now, how bad will he be in his fourth year of this contract. It might turn out to be one of the worst pitching contracts ever signed. Thank god we didnt do it. :cool:

elrod
06-14-2004, 09:39 AM
It's silly to compare Colon to our #5. Colon is paid to be an ace, not a #5. I'd rather have our troubles at #5, knowing we don't throw him every week, than have a genuine loser out there every fifth starter. Colon is Anaheim's Todd Ritchie.

SoxBoy14
06-14-2004, 12:37 PM
His numbers are still better than all of our fifth starters combined.
His salary is better than all our fifth starters combined.