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View Full Version : Frank to 2000 this year?


jenmcm76
06-12-2004, 01:53 AM
I was looking at Frank's numbers, and barring any injuries, it looks like he's going to collect his 2000th hit either late this season or early next year.

If he continues at his current pace this year (not unreasonable since he traditionally heats up in the summer months) and doesn't miss any more games, he'll end up with 155 hits this year. That'll put him at 2006 hits at the end of the regular season. If he misses a few games - in proportion to what he's missed so far this year - he'll hit #1999 at the end of the year.

So, here's what I'm wondering:

1.) Do you think he'll hit #2000 by the end of the regular season?
2.) How many hits will he have by the end of his career?
3.) Will it be enough to make Frank a first ballot Hall of Famer?


My thoughts are that yes he will get 2000 this year, that he'll likely end up with 2300-2400 hits for his career, and that (grudgingly) no, he will not be first ballot. He's never gotten the kind of media recognition he deserves, I don't see why that will change.

Daver
06-12-2004, 01:57 AM
If Frank Thomas retired tomorrow he would be a first ballott hall of famer.

Railsplitter
06-12-2004, 01:58 AM
1 believe he got it last year.

Huisj
06-12-2004, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by jenmcm76
I was looking at Frank's numbers, and barring any injuries, it looks like he's going to collect his 2000th hit either late this season or early next year.

If he continues at his current pace this year (not unreasonable since he traditionally heats up in the summer months) and doesn't miss any more games, he'll end up with 155 hits this year. That'll put him at 2006 hits at the end of the regular season. If he misses a few games - in proportion to what he's missed so far this year - he'll hit #1999 at the end of the year.

So, here's what I'm wondering:

1.) Do you think he'll hit #2000 by the end of the regular season?
2.) How many hits will he have by the end of his career?
3.) Will it be enough to make Frank a first ballot Hall of Famer?


My thoughts are that yes he will get 2000 this year, that he'll likely end up with 2300-2400 hits for his career, and that (grudgingly) no, he will not be first ballot. He's never gotten the kind of media recognition he deserves, I don't see why that will change.

if i'm not mistaken, didn't he pick up hit #2000 last year already?

Nellie_Fox
06-12-2004, 02:10 AM
As of the end of last year, Frank had 2048 hits. He has 52 hits so far this year, total 2100.

He should be a first-ballot, but I think the bias against players who are predominantly DH will work against him.

nasox
06-12-2004, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
As of the end of last year, Frank had 2048 hits. He has 52 hits so far this year, total 2100.

He should be a first-ballot, but I think the bias against players who are predominantly DH will work against him.

As much as I think Frank is worthy of being a first ballot HOFer, I don't think we can decide who should or should not be one. We do not have a vote so we cannot declare or decide that. However, I believe we can decide if he is worthy of a first ballot induction.

RKMeibalane
06-12-2004, 02:44 AM
Frank collected his two thousanth hit last season, on August 4. He deserves to be in the HOF, and anyone who follows baseball should be able to understand that. Sadly, a number of people in the media can't quite comprehend the idea that Frank is an excellent all-around hitter, and this is what makes him great. He's not just about home runs. He also takes walks and drives in runs. His knowledge of the strike zone is second-to-none. Big Frank is one of the greatest hitters of all time. Period.

RKMeibalane
06-12-2004, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by nasox
As much as I think Frank is worthy of being a first ballot HOFer, I don't think we can decide who should or should not be one. We do not have a vote so we cannot declare or decide that. However, I believe we can decide if he is worthy of a first ballot induction.

I actually think that fans should have a say in who is inducted into the HOF. The media vote only for players who kiss everyone's ass. Fans aren't perfect, but at least most Sox fans know enough to understand that Frank has been a great player throughout his career and deserves a spot in the Hall of Fame.

OEO Magglio
06-12-2004, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by Daver
If Frank Thomas retired tomorrow he would be a first ballott hall of famer.
He better be.

nasox
06-12-2004, 02:59 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I actually think that fans should have a say in who is inducted into the HOF. The media vote only for players who kiss everyone's ass. Fans aren't perfect, but at least most Sox fans know enough to understand that Frank has been a great player throughout his career and deserves a spot in the Hall of Fame.

As much as I agree for your reasons, I don't think letting fans have a say is the answer. Look at the All Star Game voting, especially this year. Granted, the HOF and All Star Game are two very, very different things, there is a certain connection between the two. THis year, many players are getting snubbed in positions that they deserve to be in, while the people taking their positions are merely so-called "fan favorites" who have done jack this year.

If we had fans have a part in voting for the HOF, who is going to say the same brain-dead moron who knows nothing about baseball (the very same who frequents the Shrine) will vote for many undeserving players into the HOF, just like they do to the ASG. Who is to determine which fan voter is a knowledgeable baseball guy and which is a Cub fan? You can't let part of the fans vote and other "fans" not vote. To quote a great Miller beer commercial, "I thought this was a democracy..."

Keep the fans out of this, and keep the voting process the way it has always been.

Nellie_Fox
06-12-2004, 03:03 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
The media vote only for players who kiss everyone's ass. Actually, there is no evidence to support this. Ted Williams hated sportswriters, and they hated him. He's in. Is there a bigger jerk in baseball than Barry Bonds? Do you think that will stop him from getting in? There are many, many examples of players who didn't get along with the press, but who are nonetheless enshrined.

RKMeibalane
06-12-2004, 04:12 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Actually, there is no evidence to support this. Ted Williams hated sportswriters, and they hated him. He's in. Is there a bigger jerk in baseball than Barry Bonds? Do you think that will stop him from getting in? There are many, many examples of players who didn't get along with the press, but who are nonetheless enshrined.

Bonds will get in because he stands a good chance of becoming the all-time leader in home runs. The media can't keep him out for fear that they'll look stupid. The same was true of Ted Williams, who was the last man to hit .400 over the course of a full season.

As far as Frank is concerned, in spite of everything he has done, nothing sticks out as an achievement that is worthy of special attention. Therefore, because Thomas has never kowtowed to the media, it may be difficult for him to get in. A damn shame if you ask me. Frank deserves better.

RKMeibalane
06-12-2004, 04:15 AM
Originally posted by nasox
As much as I agree for your reasons, I don't think letting fans have a say is the answer. Look at the All Star Game voting, especially this year. Granted, the HOF and All Star Game are two very, very different things, there is a certain connection between the two. THis year, many players are getting snubbed in positions that they deserve to be in, while the people taking their positions are merely so-called "fan favorites" who have done jack this year.

If we had fans have a part in voting for the HOF, who is going to say the same brain-dead moron who knows nothing about baseball (the very same who frequents the Shrine) will vote for many undeserving players into the HOF, just like they do to the ASG. Who is to determine which fan voter is a knowledgeable baseball guy and which is a Cub fan? You can't let part of the fans vote and other "fans" not vote. To quote a great Miller beer commercial, "I thought this was a democracy..."

Keep the fans out of this, and keep the voting process the way it has always been.

I've actually given this matter some thought, and my solution to the "Cub fan" problem is this: have those interested in voting for HOF candidates take a baseball knowledge exam. The test may be taken only once, and participants must score within a certain range in order to be eligible to vote for the HOF. It's not a perfect solution, but it's a start.

jenmcm76
06-12-2004, 10:57 AM
Sorry about the dumb 2000 hits rambling - that's what I get for trying to put two and two together on no sleep (I have a new puppy that's keeping me up nights). I was looking at his stats and got his games played mixed with his hits, and just went from there. Doh! (BTW, unless injured, he will get to 2000 games played this year) :D:

I live out of the Chicago area, so the majority of Sox games I see are on MLB Extra Innings. Half of the I get Hawk and DJ, and the other half of the time I get the opposing team's broadcasters. Different teams have brought up the HOF and the general consensus seems to be that he will NOT he first ballot. Bonds and Williams might have both been jerks to the media, but at least they were widely recognized in their time as being among the best ever.

SoxxoS
06-12-2004, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Actually, there is no evidence to support this. Ted Williams hated sportswriters, and they hated him. He's in. Is there a bigger jerk in baseball than Barry Bonds? Do you think that will stop him from getting in? There are many, many examples of players who didn't get along with the press, but who are nonetheless enshrined.

Nellie! Long time to see. What you been up to?

34 Inch Stick
06-12-2004, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Actually, there is no evidence to support this. Ted Williams hated sportswriters, and they hated him. He's in. Is there a bigger jerk in baseball than Barry Bonds? Do you think that will stop him from getting in? There are many, many examples of players who didn't get along with the press, but who are nonetheless enshrined.

Welcome back.

Hangar18
06-12-2004, 02:32 PM
Frank already got his 2000th hit. I was on tv with my 2000 sign

santo=dorf
06-12-2004, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Frank already got his 2000th hit. I was on tv with my 2000 sign

Yeah, I was wondering was this was all about. I was at that game too and I was about 2 sections over from where his homer landed. I bet Hangar doesn't remember how some drunk Cubs fans started some fights up in the upper deck during that game either.

HomeFish
06-12-2004, 02:41 PM
I thought somebody had invented a new verb -- "to 2000", defined as "to play as one did during the 2000 season."

I don't mind at all of Frank decides to 2000 this year.

FoulTerritory
06-12-2004, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Actually, there is no evidence to support this. Ted Williams hated sportswriters, and they hated him. He's in. Is there a bigger jerk in baseball than Barry Bonds? Do you think that will stop him from getting in? There are many, many examples of players who didn't get along with the press, but who are nonetheless enshrined.

I agree with most of what you say, but I do think that sportswriters right now have less dignity than they used to have, and are far more proned to letting personal feelings dictate, not only HOF voting, but also the voting for other major awards, as well as the tone of their coverage.

Case in point, Albert Belle, in 1995, had one of the most dominant season's in the history of the league, with 50 doubles and 50 homeruns in a shortened season, and his team dominated the division. He did not win the MVP. Instead it was given to Mo Vaughn who had a substantially inferior season. The media rationalized that Belle being an ass must in some way be a detriment to the team, despite the fact that the Indians nearly won the World Series.

And then, this year, you had the "on the media" sportswriter for the Sun-times (Jackson is his name I think), who wrote an article saying point blank that he voted for Tim Duncan for MVP this year, instead of Kevin Garnett, merely because he thinks Garnett is a jerk. That just about floored me . . . he should have his ap voting credentials taken away for something so unabashadly unprofressional. But, of course, he believes he "did the right thing" in taking his vote from Garnett, and seemed to think highly of himself for slapping KG on the wrist for being such a meany.


So, bottom line, I think a lot (not all) of media members need to wake up and realize that sports is not a popularity contest, and I also think that there is more bias NOW than ever against non-media friendly players such as Big Frank . . . so it wouldn't surprise me at all if he has to wait awhile to get into the Hall.

RKMeibalane
06-12-2004, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by FoulTerritory
I agree with most of what you say, but I do think that sportswriters right now have less dignity than they used to have, and are far more proned to letting personal feelings dictate, not only HOF voting, but also the voting for other major awards, as well as the tone of their coverage.

Case in point, Albert Belle, in 1995, had one of the most dominant season's in the history of the league, with 50 doubles and 50 homeruns in a shortened season, and his team dominated the division. He did not win the MVP. Instead it was given to Mo Vaughn who had a substantially inferior season. The media rationalized that Belle being an ass must in some way be a detriment to the team, despite the fact that the Indians nearly won the World Series.

And then, this year, you had the "on the media" sportswriter for the Sun-times (Jackson is his name I think), who wrote an article saying point blank that he voted for Tim Duncan for MVP this year, instead of Kevin Garnett, merely because he thinks Garnett is a jerk. That just about floored me . . . he should have his ap voting credentials taken away for something so unabashadly unprofressional. But, of course, he believes he "did the right thing" in taking his vote from Garnett, and seemed to think highly of himself for slapping KG on the wrist for being such a meany.


So, bottom line, I think a lot (not all) of media members need to wake up and realize that sports is not a popularity contest, and I also think that there is more bias NOW than ever against non-media friendly players such as Big Frank . . . so it wouldn't surprise me at all if he has to wait awhile to get into the Hall.

I completely agree. The media can no longer be counted on to provide unbiased coverage of any sporting events, or any sports-related material, including HOF voting. There are too many sports writers with egos the size of Jupiter, and brains the size of crumbs, to understand that someone such as Frank Thomas undoubtedly deserves to be elected to the HOF on the first ballot.

Nellie_Fox
06-13-2004, 02:36 AM
Thanks for the welcome back folks. I've missed it.

I think that Frank is more likely to not be a first ballot HOFer because most of his career has been as a DH rather than because he doesn't always get along with the press. However, he's only 36 and is showing signs of becoming the Frank of old. Everyone is back to talking about Griffey Jr. challenging the all-time homerun record, yet people have not yet given Frank the same respect, when both are showing signs of returning to form from major injuries. If Frank goes back to putting up monster numbers for the next four or five years, all of this will be academic; they won't be able to ignore him.

fquaye149
06-13-2004, 03:57 AM
Thanks for the welcome back folks. I've missed it.

I think that Frank is more likely to not be a first ballot HOFer because most of his career has been as a DH rather than because he doesn't always get along with the press. However, he's only 36 and is showing signs of becoming the Frank of old. Everyone is back to talking about Griffey Jr. challenging the all-time homerun record, yet people have not yet given Frank the same respect, when both are showing signs of returning to form from major injuries. If Frank goes back to putting up monster numbers for the next four or five years, all of this will be academic; they won't be able to ignore him.
I agree that generally the sportswriters make the right choice on hall of famers (though do think Sandburg should be in the hall). However it's true that sportswriters have been known to make decisions on awards and honors based on their personal feelings on players behavior (Williams in the MVP race, for instance) or feelings regarding politics that have little to do with the criteria of the award (Matsui losing out on the ROTY because some people felt that Japanese veterans didn't deserve the award although the rules clearly stated that they were eligible).

Therefore I believe that there is a good possibility that some sportswriters will be swayed by Frank's "attitude"(which is an illusion created by the Chicago media) and by his preponderance to DH in the latter half of his career (not precluded by the loose definition of a Hall of Famer).

pinwheels3530
06-13-2004, 04:58 AM
Frank should be a first Ballot Hall of famer, If a jerk like Marriotti has a vote it will be hard to get him in, but the numbers don't lie he should be in there.
Go SOX!!!!

Corked
Used
By
Sammy

Voice of Reason
06-13-2004, 05:33 AM
Is there a bigger jerk in baseball than Barry Bonds? Do you think that will stop him from getting in?
How about all the guys that have gotten caught beating their wives or driving drunk? Barry Bonds is the biggest jerk in baseball because he isn't nice to the media but no one cares about the fact that guys like Wil Cordero beat their wives? Or how about a bigot like Todd Jones and his anti-gay comments? Biggest jerk in baseball you ask? I think thats Ben Christensen hands down for his malicious attack on Anthony Molina in college. Yeah Barry Bonds, biggest jerk in baseball, right.

fquaye149
06-13-2004, 05:36 AM
How about all the guys that have gotten caught beating their wives or driving drunk? Barry Bonds is the biggest jerk in baseball because he isn't nice to the media but no one cares about the fact that guys like Wil Cordero beat their wives? Or how about a bigot like Todd Jones and his anti-gay comments? Biggest jerk in baseball you ask? I think thats Ben Christensen hands down for his malicious attack on Anthony Molina in college. Yeah Barry Bonds, biggest jerk in baseball, right.
I think his point was that as far as the media is concerned, no one is a bigger jerk than Barry Bonds and despite their mutual animosity, Bonds will still be a first ballot slam dunk.



But as far as jerks in baseball go, how about vince coleman and his firecracker hijinx?

Voice of Reason
06-13-2004, 05:36 AM
I agree that generally the sportswriters make the right choice on hall of famers (though do think Sandburg should be in the hall). However it's true that sportswriters have been known to make decisions on awards and honors based on their personal feelings on players behavior (Williams in the MVP race, for instance) or feelings regarding politics that have little to do with the criteria of the award (Matsui losing out on the ROTY because some people felt that Japanese veterans didn't deserve the award although the rules clearly stated that they were eligible).

I'm pretty sure Matsui lost out on ROY because his numbers weren't special for a corner outfielder. Matsui was a big dissapointment last year (although this year he's stepped it up to the level expected of him). Berroa deserved the ROY last year. Biases didn't seem to keep Ichiro away from the trophy.

fquaye149
06-13-2004, 05:44 AM
I'm pretty sure Matsui lost out on ROY because his numbers weren't special for a corner outfielder. Matsui was a big dissapointment last year (although this year he's stepped it up to the level expected of him). Berroa deserved the ROY last year. Biases didn't seem to keep Ichiro away from the trophy.
Right but I remember one voter in particular who specifically said he voted for Berroa because of that reason and didn't vote for matsui at any place, which is pretty much proves his vote precluded Matsui for reasons unrelated to his performance.

Sorry I dont' remember any specifics (as is usually the case with me :redface:) but i'm sure some people might be able to back me up on it.

Anyway, it doesn't have all that much to do with frank. I was more concerned with the media's poor relationship with him.

RKMeibalane
06-13-2004, 11:01 AM
Right but I remember one voter in particular who specifically said he voted for Berroa because of that reason and didn't vote for matsui at any place, which is pretty much proves his vote precluded Matsui for reasons unrelated to his performance.

Sorry I dont' remember any specifics (as is usually the case with me :redface:) but i'm sure some people might be able to back me up on it.

Anyway, it doesn't have all that much to do with frank. I was more concerned with the media's poor relationship with him.
A lot of writers said they weren't willing to vote for Matsui because in their minds, he wasn't really a rookie, having played in Japan for years. I'm not sure if I agree with that stance or not, but I think that was the reason the writer didn't vote for him.

TheBull19
06-14-2004, 07:45 AM
Is there a bigger jerk in baseball than Barry Bonds? Do you think that will stop him from getting in?
Isn't Sosa in baseball anymore?

I know Bonds comes off as an ego-maniac, but what exactly has he done that's so bad? Is it just because he's a cocky black guy that gives him this bad reputation, like I suspect, or has he actually done something to make him such a jerk?

CanOfCorn
06-14-2004, 09:34 AM
I don't think the DH will hurt Frank as much as some might think. He's not like Edgar Martinez, who physically couldn't play a defensive position without missing 120 games a year. Frank could easily be our everyday first baseman if we didn't have Konerko. For all the stuff that's made about him being a disaster on defense, I haven't seen it. He's below-average, but I'd trust him in the field over the course of a season.

The HOF is also kind to right-handed hitters, and for about eight years or so, Frank was the greatest right-handed hitter since Rogers Hornsby. Also, thanks to sabermetrics and the like, walks have more meaning to writers than before.

If he keeps up what he's doing, for another year or so, I can't imagine while he wouldn't receive at least 75% of the vote the first time around.

StepsInSC
06-14-2004, 10:38 AM
Isn't Sosa in baseball anymore?

I know Bonds comes off as an ego-maniac, but what exactly has he done that's so bad? Is it just because he's a cocky black guy that gives him this bad reputation, like I suspect, or has he actually done something to make him such a jerk?
Bonds is a 'jerk' because he doesn't cooperate with the media too often. Sosa, on the other hand, is a media darling.

Thus, in our reality Sosa = good guy, Bonds = jerk. Yup, its pretty warped.

Nellie_Fox
06-15-2004, 01:48 AM
Bonds is a 'jerk' because he doesn't cooperate with the media too often. Sosa, on the other hand, is a media darling.That was pretty much my meaning. There are a lot of players who are or will be in the hall who have been jerks in their dealings with the press and the public. Bonds pretty much doesn't like anybody, and is not just uncooperative with the press, but usually nasty. He ridicules perfectly reasonable questions if he isn't just ignoring them. He makes stupid statements about how physically hard his job is, being on the bases and in the field all the time, and about how he could never get the same deal about road games that Clemens got because of his race (ignoring the fact that a pitcher is only in the lineup every fifth day instead of every day.)

Sosa cultivates a public image, Bonds goes out of his way to show he doesn't care about his image. When the HOF vote comes around, I really don't think that will matter. And I do think that Frank having played most of his career as a DH will matter to some sportswriters who have a serious bias against the rule, much less the players who play it. If he's not first ballot, I think it will be more due to anti-DH bias than any perception of Frank being a bad guy with the press. That's the only point I was trying to make.

doublem23
06-15-2004, 01:49 AM
As of the end of last year, Frank had 2048 hits. He has 52 hits so far this year, total 2100.

He should be a first-ballot, but I think the bias against players who are predominantly DH will work against him.
Hopefully Paul Molitor's induction will set a more DH-friendly precident.

Nellie_Fox
06-15-2004, 02:08 AM
Hopefully Paul Molitor's induction will set a more DH-friendly precident.I hope you're right, but Molitor was hardly ever a DH from 78-90 and was predominately a DH from 91-98, while Frank has had more games as a DH than at 1B every year except 96 and 97.

Frank has been a career DH, while Molitor became a late-career DH after already being an established star while playing 2nd, SS and 3rd.

I don't think being a DH should be held against you, but I think it is by many sportswriters, who see a DH as an incomplete player.

batmanZoSo
06-15-2004, 02:10 AM
Frank will go down as one of the top 20 hitters who ever lived. There's almost no arguing that. It's silly to even debate his HOF ticket.

He'll end up with the following

.300 lifetime average (he's at .310 right now)
550 home runs
Number ten all time in on-base percentage, second among righties

There are many other stats I can't think of right now that by the end, he'll be way up on the all-time list. Let's not forget that he had probably 4/5ths of all his at-bats vs. right handed pitchers.

Only struck out 100 times once before age 34. That's awesome. He also played during the era of relief and specialty pitchers. Guys that come in fresh, often with great stuff, right-handers on right-handers. Ted Williams and others around and before his time got a lot of at-bats against worn out starters pitching 350 innings a year and 180 pitches a game, not to mention the lack of hispanic, asian, and black pitchers. The league was just as watered down then as it is now. Thomas is simply one of the all-time greats.

MisterB
06-15-2004, 02:30 AM
I hope you're right, but Molitor was hardly ever a DH from 78-90 and was predominately a DH from 91-98, while Frank has had more games as a DH than at 1B every year except 96 and 97.

Frank has been a career DH, while Molitor became a late-career DH after already being an established star while playing 2nd, SS and 3rd.

I don't think being a DH should be held against you, but I think it is by many sportswriters, who see a DH as an incomplete player.
Coming into this season, FT had 100 more games at 1B than as a DH. That's almost 45% DH-ing compared to Molitor who wound up with 44% of his games as a DH. Obviously Frank's percentage will go up by the time he retires.

Nellie_Fox
06-15-2004, 02:34 AM
Frank will go down as one of the top 20 hitters who ever lived. There's almost no arguing that. It's silly to even debate his HOF ticket. Just to clarify what the argument was: it was proposed that he might not be a first-ballot choice because he doesn't get along with the press, and the press do the voting. My counter was that if there was anything to stand in the way of first-ballot, it would be an anti-DH bias rather than personality.

I don't think anyone is arguing that he doesn't belong in the Hall. With the numbers he has just up to now he deserves it, and he is showing every sign of being nearly the Frank of old, able to put up monster numbers again and for several more years.

Nellie_Fox
06-15-2004, 02:40 AM
Coming into this season, FT had 100 more games at 1B than as a DH. That's almost 45% DH-ing compared to Molitor who wound up with 44% of his games as a DH. Obviously Frank's percentage will go up by the time he retires.You're right. I misread the columns on his career records. My apologies.

Deadguy
06-15-2004, 04:04 PM
In other news, Frank has tied Juan Gonzalez for 30th on the all-time homerun list, with 434 homeruns. He should pass him, and leave him in the dust. much like he has done to his twin, Jeff Bagwell, whose shoulder problems have led to a serious decline.

Frank, however, seems to be on a career upswing of sorts. His OBP and Slugging percentage are higher as of right now than they were in any of his peak years, outside of 1994. Of course, they will probably go down a bit, as maintaining a 1.100 OPS over the course of an entire season will be very hard to do. His career OPS has risen back to .999.

The HOF debate really only came about after his 2002 season, when many people thought he would continue to decline. But like Frank said in Spring Training, he knew he wasn't 100% that season, and he was laughing on the inside at all the critics who said he was finished.

Of course now it's ridiculous to argue against Thomas being in the HOF. His peak numbers are comparable to the likes of Hank Greenburg and Johnny Mize, and he has already surpassed them in terms of career numbers. Also, in addition to his two MVPs, he has three other top three finishes in the MVP voting. That means he was voted one of the thre most valuable players in the league 5 different times. He has also lead the league in OPS 4 different times. Who has these credentials, and isn't in the HOF, as a 1st ballot HOFer no less. In the 1990s, he finished third in all of baseball in win shares, behind Bonds and Biggio, which means he was arguably the best player in the AL in the 90s, and he didn't even play in most of 1990.

I mentioned in the off season that Thomas could very well lead the league in OPS this season, since he possesses the two ingredients to producing a high OPS (Power and a great batter's eye), and was told that that should have probably been put in teal. Right now, it seems like it will come down to a race between Ramirez and Thomas, as only Mora is over .1000 OPS at this point.

rahulsekhar
06-15-2004, 04:51 PM
A lot of writers said they weren't willing to vote for Matsui because in their minds, he wasn't really a rookie, having played in Japan for years. I'm not sure if I agree with that stance or not, but I think that was the reason the writer didn't vote for him.
IIRC, Matsui lost out on a close vote, and there were some writers who did not include him at all because of their disagreement with the policy (despite his officially being eligible by the rules of the ROY award). In fact, I believe that it was determined that if those few writers had put him on their ballots at all - he would have won the award. Therefore the writers effectively changed the criteria for the award on their own. As I remember, big Stein was VERY pissed.

IMO - that's a farce. Those same writers will be the first to blast someone for using steroids or corking a bat, but don't see that their blatant flaunting of the written policy for the award amounts to basically the same thing.

rahulsekhar
06-15-2004, 04:55 PM
Frank will go down as one of the top 20 hitters who ever lived. There's almost no arguing that. It's silly to even debate his HOF ticket.

He'll end up with the following

.300 lifetime average (he's at .310 right now)
550 home runs
Number ten all time in on-base percentage, second among righties

There are many other stats I can't think of right now that by the end, he'll be way up on the all-time list. Let's not forget that he had probably 4/5ths of all his at-bats vs. right handed pitchers.

Only struck out 100 times once before age 34. That's awesome. He also played during the era of relief and specialty pitchers. Guys that come in fresh, often with great stuff, right-handers on right-handers. Ted Williams and others around and before his time got a lot of at-bats against worn out starters pitching 350 innings a year and 180 pitches a game, not to mention the lack of hispanic, asian, and black pitchers. The league was just as watered down then as it is now. Thomas is simply one of the all-time greats.
IMO if Jerry Manuel doesn't spend most of his time messing with Frank, we would currently be discussing whether or not Frank is the single greatest hitter in baseball history. As it ends up though, there's no debate that he's one of the best ever (and he's going to show that over the next couple of years with a resurgence under Ozzie).

However, given the egos and laziness of media personalities today, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he's not a 1st ballot HOFer. Many guys will say "Hey - the official word from the Chicago media as represented by Jay Mariotti is that he's a jerk, and he's a DH, so no way he gets in first try" It's shameful and makes a mockery of the voting, but it's likely to happen.

RKMeibalane
06-15-2004, 06:08 PM
IMO if Jerry Manuel doesn't spend most of his time messing with Frank, we would currently be discussing whether or not Frank is the single greatest hitter in baseball history. As it ends up though, there's no debate that he's one of the best ever (and he's going to show that over the next couple of years with a resurgence under Ozzie).

However, given the egos and laziness of media personalities today, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he's not a 1st ballot HOFer. Many guys will say "Hey - the official word from the Chicago media as represented by Jay Mariotti is that he's a jerk, and he's a DH, so no way he gets in first try" It's shameful and makes a mockery of the voting, but it's likely to happen. I am convinced that if Jerry Manuel had never been hired as Sox manager, Frank Thomas might be mentioned in the same category with Barry Bonds in terms of his ability to dominate a baseball game. During his prime, Frank was considered by many to be the most feared player in the game, because nobody knew how to get him out. The same is true today, as he is continuing to put up big numbers. Jerry Manuel may go down in baseball history as the only man who could stop Frank Thomas. What a damn shame.

****ing idiot ------------------------------------> :jerry