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View Full Version : Bigger Issue in letting Maggs Walk!


joeynach
06-11-2004, 10:01 AM
Let Maggs walk really pisses me off. Its the message this whole ordeal sends to every player on the team as well as in the league and their respective agents. That is the sox just dont pay up. You can work your ass off for this team and become a star and not get rewarded. Instead you'll get jerked around with a gimmick laden contract with incentives and deffered money in an attempt to try and minimize or collude a players earnerd salary. Im sorry but this is nothing short of pathetic and expected as well.

I am an firm believer in the notion that Histroy Repeats Itself. Histroy is based on the beahvior and actions of people. Especially important people like political figures, heros, businessmen, wealthy people, etc. In our case it is with our controversial owner JR. Did we not expect another "colon" situation here. Did we not expect in some format or another a not straight foward or something going contract and resigning process. This is JR's persona, this is his trademark. Incentive clasuses, deffered money, anyting that reduces the base of $$ he has to pay the player. In todays free agent market its obviously not enough to get the job done. Look at the past. Look at guys who exceled here only to be traded or allowed to walk when it was time to pay up to lock them here. Ventura , durham, foulke, colon, alvarez, hernandez, and now Maggs. Its the exact same situation from the exact same man, history repeats itself how could we not expect this.

I only hoped, hoped every night that JR would not do what he always does and screw around with good players contracts and their agents. I prayed, no clauses, no deffered money, no more years less money, or less years more money. But of course men are stubborn, and stubborn men make histroy (IE bush going to war over WMD that didn't exist). JR has proven to me now more than ever that history really does repeat itself.

Tekijawa
06-11-2004, 10:10 AM
I don't know if you notced but this has been going on for longer than Just Maggs... Anyone remember what they did with Fisk or what they did with Frank's contract, the only future hall of fammer on the team right now. I don't think that this situation will finally hammer in the last nail to the Free agent coffin as they will still go to who ever has the deepest pockets... what we need is deeper pockets not a better "player relations" department. When's the last time you saw a player give a hometown discount? Mike Sweeney? and look how that's turned out he's half the player, when he plays, that he used to be...

If Maggs wants 15 mill a year for 7 years, good luck getting that we shouldn't have to pay him that much because "he likes it here" I'd rather have Beltran for that money or 2 pitchers... We're going to have close to 30 million to play with next season. With Maggs, Koch, and Manos all becoming Free agents that's more than likely enough to fill a couple of our holes with some quality players, especially with the scouting system we seem to have.

Would I like ot keep maggs, yes, but not for "player realtions" reasons!

jabrch
06-11-2004, 10:12 AM
That is the sox just dont pay up.

This just isn't true - despite all that we like to say it is. They offered Magglio plenty of money. They didn't offer him Yankee's money - but they don't run on Yankee budget. If whatever they offered Magglio is not enough, then he is excercising his contractual right to go elsewhere - over a few million dollars. I don't begrudge him for that - it is his life, his family, his right. But I surely won't condemn JR for this one - not if it is true that he has made the kind of offers that have been reported. If that's the case - and Magglio didn't want them, then he can leave - and I will not miss a moment of sleep over it. How much more than Magglio will Carlos Beltran cost? Beltran is a superior player in many ways - faster, more power, and a very good defensive CF. We have plenty of OFs coming up who are supposed to have high cielings. I'd rather see the money spent on some other things if he doesn't want 4/52, or 5/60 as has been reported.

joeynach
06-11-2004, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
I don't know if you notced but this has been going on for longer than Just Maggs... Anyone remember what they did with Fisk or what they did with Frank's contract, the only future hall of fammer on the team right now. I don't think that this situation will finally hammer in the last nail to the Free agent coffin as they will still go to who ever has the deepest pockets... what we need is deeper pockets not a better "player relations" department. When's the last time you saw a player give a hometown discount? Mike Sweeney? and look how that's turned out he's half the player, when he plays, that he used to be...

If Maggs wants 15 mill a year for 7 years, good luck getting that we shouldn't have to pay him that much because "he likes it here" I'd rather have Beltran for that money or 2 pitchers... We're going to have close to 30 million to play with next season. With Maggs, Koch, and Manos all becoming Free agents that's more than likely enough to fill a couple of our holes with some quality players, especially with the scouting system we seem to have.

Would I like ot keep maggs, yes, but not for "player realtions" reasons!

Think about the reprocusions of letting Maggs walk. Every person that goes to the game gets up and cheers when Maggs comes to the plate. Every kid or casual fan knows Maggs. Every girl thinks hes cute. Every out of towner is drawn to see Maggs. Now remove him in a semi-scandalas way. Fan backlash, another nail in the heart of the sox faithful that we have dealt with for so many year. That is the issue here. THink of lost revenue, think of the media bash, think of the pissed off fans out there who now have one more reason to contribute to our dismal attendance. At some point this becomes a struggle for survival and a business venture. The sox could find themselves in another 1997/98 situation very quickly. All i have to say now is not the time nor the place to enter into another backlash against JR and the team, but i feel a storm is already brewing.

jshanahanjr
06-11-2004, 10:45 AM
Why can't the Sox sign both guys? They will have 11 million available from Koch & Valentin being free agents. Oh I forgot, we have JR for an owner.

rahulsekhar
06-11-2004, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by joeynach
Ventura , durham, foulke, colon, alvarez, hernandez, and now Maggs.



This wasn't the main thrust of your point, but it's interesting to note that Colon, Alvarez, Hernandez, Durham have all done little to nothing since leaving the Sox. And IMO Colon was overpaid by Anaheim, it wasn't any gimmicky or cheap contract that made him leave.

Apparently, they never even talked $$$ - couldn't agree on the # of years (which seems odd). Which makes it seem like Maggs really wants to hit FA - I don't see the Sox coming in saying "we won't go to 4 years for you". Not at his age & position.

joeynach
06-11-2004, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
This wasn't the main thrust of your point, but it's interesting to note that Colon, Alvarez, Hernandez, Durham have all done little to nothing since leaving the Sox. And IMO Colon was overpaid by Anaheim, it wasn't any gimmicky or cheap contract that made him leave.

Apparently, they never even talked $$$ - couldn't agree on the # of years (which seems odd). Which makes it seem like Maggs really wants to hit FA - I don't see the Sox coming in saying "we won't go to 4 years for you". Not at his age & position.

Oh really with all that JR has done with players and their contracts here is what i see happeneing.

Maggs: I want 5 years 70 mil deal, that 14 mil per year.

JR: Ok 14 mil per year, 4 years 56 mil on the table.

Maggs: Um ok but i would like 5 years, i want to be here for life.

JR: Oh ok 5 years 60 mil deal on the table.

Maggs: Uh yeah, that a lower amount of $, what about the 14 mil.

JR: So you want 5 years at 70 mil?

Maggs: Yes i would sign an instant, no Free Agency.

JR: Ok let me defer that $$ till later and add some incetive clauses

Maggs: Ok forget it, ill get something fair and even on the open market, enough toying around.

JR: Hahaha, you cant mess with me I am Nikita Kruschev, the biggest hardline negotiator there is.

Maggs: THe same negatiator that hasnt won a championship in 22 years, the longest draught by any current owner. HE GONE!!! Hahaha, and you woner why? Hello NY!!

Randar68
06-11-2004, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by jshanahanjr
Why can't the Sox sign both guys? They will have 11 million available from Koch & Valentin being free agents. Oh I forgot, we have JR for an owner.

Loaiza is a FA, Thomas and Carlos and several others will receive significant raises. Uribe is going to get a big raise in arbitration.

However, don't let that stop you from an uninformed whining session. Hope it made you feel better. :whiner:

joeynach
06-11-2004, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
This wasn't the main thrust of your point, but it's interesting to note that Colon, Alvarez, Hernandez, Durham have all done little to nothing since leaving the Sox. And IMO Colon was overpaid by Anaheim, it wasn't any gimmicky or cheap contract that made him leave.

Apparently, they never even talked $$$ - couldn't agree on the # of years (which seems odd). Which makes it seem like Maggs really wants to hit FA - I don't see the Sox coming in saying "we won't go to 4 years for you". Not at his age & position.

Wait you honestly think that if Maggs goes to another team for like 14 mil per year he will be not as good of a player. Haha, yeah right, Maggs is one of the best all around platers there is. Colon was just a retard. HE went what 14-12, not very impressive, no wonder he stinks this year, hes just not that good. But dont for a second think that this is a good move becasue Maggs will stink and go downhill, he is in the prime of his career and still rising, no matter what team he plays for.

soxtalker
06-11-2004, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by joeynach
....

.... This is JR's persona, this is his trademark. Incentive clasuses, deffered money, anyting that reduces the base of $$ he has to pay the player. In todays free agent market its obviously not enough to get the job done. ...

I only hoped, hoped every night that JR would not do what he always does and screw around with good players contracts and their agents. I prayed, no clauses, no deffered money, no more years less money, or less years more money. ....

I appreciate your frustration on not being able to sign Maggs, but I think that you're wrong on the incentive clauses, etc. The use of option clauses is quite normal in big money contracts -- baseball contracts being no exception. It isn't insulting to either side. Instead it is a way to bridge the gap between the two sides -- turn a conflict with two set positions into a win-win situation. (These aren't difficult concepts, but it helps to see a few examples which can be found in many popular books on negotiation.) The fact that Maggs and the Sox couldn't get together is sad, but I'd guess that it indicates that both sides feel that they have a number of other alternatives.

Tekijawa
06-11-2004, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by joeynach
Think about the reprocusions of letting Maggs walk. Every person that goes to the game gets up and cheers when Maggs comes to the plate. Every kid or casual fan knows Maggs. Every girl thinks hes cute. Every out of towner is drawn to see Maggs.

I have a feeling you're GROSSLY over estimating Magg's appeal here. I've never heard any one fly into Chicago and Say Man I got to get over to Comiskey and see that Magglio Ordonez play... NEVER. Sure he may be the Second most recognized on the team behind Frank, but will him leaving sned the 20,000 that show up now to leave in droves? NO... I heard people Say that they wouldn't come again if we let Bartolo/Everett/Alomar go Guess what OUR ATTENDANCE IS UP... I think your thinking of us as a group of fans who would rather see one player stay with this team than Adding 2-3 Coggs to make a run for a WINNING TEAM. I'm pretty sure that the season ticket holders are the die hards that are left and I believe that losing maggs in order to make the team better wouldn't effect their decison as much as you may think. Sure you may lose a few causal fans who have liked Maggs for their entire lives or the girls that think that he is cute... Who cares I know kids who like Willie Harris and Girls that think Cotts is cute... If you love a team... especially in the era, of FA you can't Love a player. I'm a die hard white sox fan, I wouldn't become a fan of another team simply because Maggs, buehrle, Frank, Lee are playing for another team.

Originally posted by joeynach
Now remove him in a semi-scandalas way. Fan backlash, another nail in the heart of the sox faithful that we have dealt with for so many year. That is the issue here. THink of lost revenue, think of the media bash, think of the pissed off fans out there who now have one more reason to contribute to our dismal attendance.

Welcome to the life of a Sox fan. I've put up with Fisk being locked out of the Stadium, the '94 season, Blue Seats, steep upperdecks, Rising ticket/beer/Nacho Prices, Idoits running around on the field (Players and fans), The Cubs in the NLCS, Jamie Navarro, Albert Belle, and Terry Bevington (that's just the stuff that I'm old enough to remember) and I'm still here spend an ever increasing ammount of money on this team. Let them give up on Maggs and bring two more pitchers in and a couple other quality guys I'll still be going to my 20+ game irregardless. Because I'm cursed with being a Sox fan................

Just put a winner on the field, I don't care if it's Maggs, Lee and Beltran in the outfield or Shawn Abner, Lyle Mouton, and Chris Singleton.

CHISOXFAN13
06-11-2004, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by joeynach
Think about the reprocusions of letting Maggs walk. Every person that goes to the game gets up and cheers when Maggs comes to the plate. Every kid or casual fan knows Maggs. Every girl thinks hes cute. Every out of towner is drawn to see Maggs. Now remove him in a semi-scandalas way. Fan backlash, another nail in the heart of the sox faithful that we have dealt with for so many year. That is the issue here. THink of lost revenue, think of the media bash, think of the pissed off fans out there who now have one more reason to contribute to our dismal attendance. At some point this becomes a struggle for survival and a business venture. The sox could find themselves in another 1997/98 situation very quickly. All i have to say now is not the time nor the place to enter into another backlash against JR and the team, but i feel a storm is already brewing.

We drew 33,000 the other night with Maggs out of the lineup. If they do something with the money, attendace will not suffer.

Winning is all that matters.

CubKilla
06-11-2004, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
This just isn't true - despite all that we like to say it is. They offered Magglio plenty of money. They didn't offer him Yankee's money - but they don't run on Yankee budget. If whatever they offered Magglio is not enough, then he is excercising his contractual right to go elsewhere - over a few million dollars. I don't begrudge him for that - it is his life, his family, his right. But I surely won't condemn JR for this one - not if it is true that he has made the kind of offers that have been reported.

Maggs stated in the press about a week ago that the NY reports of 5 yrs/$70 million were false.

No one really knows what is being offered to the other except the parties involved and neither of them are talking.

hold2dibber
06-11-2004, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by joeynach
Think about the reprocusions of letting Maggs walk. Every person that goes to the game gets up and cheers when Maggs comes to the plate. Every kid or casual fan knows Maggs. Every girl thinks hes cute. Every out of towner is drawn to see Maggs. Now remove him in a semi-scandalas way. Fan backlash, another nail in the heart of the sox faithful that we have dealt with for so many year. That is the issue here. THink of lost revenue, think of the media bash, think of the pissed off fans out there who now have one more reason to contribute to our dismal attendance. At some point this becomes a struggle for survival and a business venture. The sox could find themselves in another 1997/98 situation very quickly. All i have to say now is not the time nor the place to enter into another backlash against JR and the team, but i feel a storm is already brewing.

Do you actually believe this? C'mon. Maggs is definitely very popular. But you're overstating it by a ton. The Sox would be much worse off by overpaying to keep Maggs to the detriment of the team. If they use the money wisely (a big "if" I admit), the PR hit they take for letting Maggs walk will melt away quickly. The bad PR of losing Maggs can be offset by making other off season moves to improve the team and, most of all, by winning. Committing $15 million of a $65 million payroll to one very good (but not great) player would, in the long run, be detrimental to the team.

Irishsox1
06-11-2004, 11:44 AM
Free agents leaving or big stars being traded have a way of working out. Seattle traded away Randy Johnson and Ken Griffey Jr. and then won 116 in 2001. Of couse at the time, I'm sure Seattle fans felt that playing baseball without Griffey and Johnson would totally suck, but these things have a way of working out. Chicago White Sox Baseball will continue without Magglio Ordonez. Some other star player will come along, they always do.

SEALgep
06-11-2004, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by joeynach
Oh really with all that JR has done with players and their contracts here is what i see happeneing.

Maggs: I want 5 years 70 mil deal, that 14 mil per year.

JR: Ok 14 mil per year, 4 years 56 mil on the table.

Maggs: Um ok but i would like 5 years, i want to be here for life.

JR: Oh ok 5 years 60 mil deal on the table.

Maggs: Uh yeah, that a lower amount of $, what about the 14 mil.

JR: So you want 5 years at 70 mil?

Maggs: Yes i would sign an instant, no Free Agency.

JR: Ok let me defer that $$ till later and add some incetive clauses

Maggs: Ok forget it, ill get something fair and even on the open market, enough toying around.

JR: Hahaha, you cant mess with me I am Nikita Kruschev, the biggest hardline negotiator there is.

Maggs: THe same negatiator that hasnt won a championship in 22 years, the longest draught by any current owner. HE GONE!!! Hahaha, and you woner why? Hello NY!! This is a major assumption on your part. For all we know, Maggs is only willing to stick around here if we pay him 5 years at $15 million. We don't know, and assuming this is JR's fault isn't fair at all. If that is what Maggs wants, see you later.

rahulsekhar
06-11-2004, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by joeynach
Wait you honestly think that if Maggs goes to another team for like 14 mil per year he will be not as good of a player. Haha, yeah right, Maggs is one of the best all around platers there is. Colon was just a retard. HE went what 14-12, not very impressive, no wonder he stinks this year, hes just not that good. But dont for a second think that this is a good move becasue Maggs will stink and go downhill, he is in the prime of his career and still rising, no matter what team he plays for.

Ummm....not sure where you get that - in fact I actually say that at his age & position, a long-term deal is not a bad move. I was just noting that not resigning Colon, Alvarez, Hernandez doesn't necessarily imply cheapness by the Sox, but rather could mean that they were smart and recognized that those guys were finished or close to it.

But hey - dont' let facts get in the way of a good rant or anything.

joeynach
06-11-2004, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
Ummm....not sure where you get that - in fact I actually say that at his age & position, a long-term deal is not a bad move. I was just noting that not resigning Colon, Alvarez, Hernandez doesn't necessarily imply cheapness by the Sox, but rather could mean that they were smart and recognized that those guys were finished or close to it.

But hey - dont' let facts get in the way of a good rant or anything.

Considering KW publically said last offseason signing colon was his highest priority and that he wanted him back i dont think this was the case.

duke of dorwood
06-11-2004, 01:31 PM
This is just BUSINESS AS USUAL and believe me, its no surprise to players agents and fans everywhere

:reinsy

Mr Consistant

kittle42
06-11-2004, 02:02 PM
They: Sign their big stars
We: Don't

rahulsekhar
06-11-2004, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by joeynach
Considering KW publically said last offseason signing colon was his highest priority and that he wanted him back i dont think this was the case.

KW wanting Bart to return and not being willing to pay more than what he considers him worth are not contradictory.

KW made his comments before negotiation began (or at least before the actual #s were being tossed around). It's an extreme example, but Colon could have asked for $50mil/yr. And if someone else was willing to give it to him, woul that mean KW didn't want to resign him or was cheap?

The Sox made a pretty good offer to Bart, and the Angels made a better one, and one that's been reported to be considered excessive by many in baseball, not just the Sox.

gogosoxgogo
06-11-2004, 02:07 PM
Let's calm down folks. No one here knows what type of deal was offered to Maggs. We don't know what type of money, how many years, what kind of incentives, and how much money was deferred. It is ridiculous to speculate that the Sox are trying to cheapshot Maggs. For all we know, they may have offered him a very lucrative contract but Magglio preferred to see what he could get on the open market. Let's not bash the organization for something that we know nothing about.

mmmmmbeeer
06-11-2004, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by kittle42
They: Sign their big stars
We: Don't

they: pay all stars who increase attendance and are national draws
we: don't have any perennial all stars who are national draws to pay

Kilroy
06-11-2004, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Loaiza is a FA, Thomas and Carlos and several others will receive significant raises. Uribe is going to get a big raise in arbitration.

However, don't let that stop you from an uninformed whining session. Hope it made you feel better. :whiner:

The post in the thread that makes the most significant point goes ignored and the nonsensical ranting continues.

Lip Man 1
06-11-2004, 02:22 PM
Mmmmmmbeer:

The Sox don't have any national reputation All Stars because the Sox haven't won anything of consequence under the watch of current ownership have they?

And why haven't they won anything of any consequence?

Because they always have one of two major holes that prevent them from being an elite team.

And why do they always have one or two holes?

Because ownership considers 'fiscal responsibility' more important then taking a short term risk for long term gain.


First rule of business: "you have to spend money to make money."

Lip

CWSGuy406
06-11-2004, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Mmmmmmbeer:

The Sox don't have any national reputation All Stars because the Sox haven't won anything of consequence under the watch of current ownership have they?

And why haven't they won anything of any consequence?

Because they always have one of two major holes that prevent them from being an elite team.

And why do they always have one or two holes?

Because ownership considers 'fiscal responsibility' more important then taking a short term risk for long term gain.


First rule of business: "you have to spend money to make money."

Lip

Spend money 'wisely'. Maggs getting a Vlad type contract is not wise. In fact, Maggs numbers are very similar to Bobby Abreu over the years (IIRC), and If Im not mistaken he is only making right around 10 million a year...

mmmmmbeeer
06-11-2004, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Mmmmmmbeer:

The Sox don't have any national reputation All Stars because the Sox haven't won anything of consequence under the watch of current ownership have they?

And why haven't they won anything of any consequence?

Because they always have one of two major holes that prevent them from being an elite team.

And why do they always have one or two holes?

Because ownership considers 'fiscal responsibility' more important then taking a short term risk for long term gain.


First rule of business: "you have to spend money to make money."

Lip

Exactly. So why would you choose to open your pursestrings on a guy who is/has not been in the least bit marketable? When you ask an extremely casual fan, I'm talking the Iowan Wrigley crowd, to name one guy who plays for the White Sox, I'd bet that 9/10 would answer Frank Thomas. Maggs is a helluva player but, as I pointed out earlier, he's not even a top 10 player in the league, and certainly not even in the top 25 if you were to rank name recognition amongst casual fans.

The sCrUBS haven't won anything, Boston hasn't won anything, yet guys like Nomar, Manny, Prior, Wood, Sosa are all national names. Nomar hasn't played but a couple of games this season yet the fans appear to be voting him in as the starting SS for the AL in Houston next month. Those are the guys that WILL increase revenue, WILL increase attendance, WILL provide a return on ownership's investment whether you win or not. Maggs isn't.

I agree with you that the current ownership has stymied this franchise. The last couple of years it's as if they know that the division sucks, there's no reason to invest in a large payroll, just pick up the necessary components at the deadline. It's not a bad business strategy, unfortunately it hasn't played out too well on the field. I agree that they DO need to open their pursestrings and sign high quality talent and try to keep homegrown talent. I just don't feel that Maggs has enough talent nor marketability/name recognition to warrant one of the highest salaries in the majors.

Another rule of business--"if you don't get a reciprocating return on your money, don't spend it"

joeynach
06-11-2004, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Mmmmmmbeer:

The Sox don't have any national reputation All Stars because the Sox haven't won anything of consequence under the watch of current ownership have they?

And why haven't they won anything of any consequence?

Because they always have one of two major holes that prevent them from being an elite team.

And why do they always have one or two holes?

Because ownership considers 'fiscal responsibility' more important then taking a short term risk for long term gain.


First rule of business: "you have to spend money to make money."

Lip

I would be interested to find out if the problem is they dont have the money of they dont want to spend the money. You cant spend money you dont have. Accumulating a deficit or debt could ruin this team, IE the current rockies.

hold2dibber
06-11-2004, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by kittle42
They: Sign their big stars
We: Don't

Who is "they"? Last I checked, neither Sheffield, Glavine or Maddux is on the Braves. Jason Giambi isn't on the A's. A-Rod isn't on the Mariners. Piazza isn't on the Dodgers. Neither Ramirez nor Thome is on the Indians. Ivan Rodriguez is not on the Rangers (or the Marlins). Mike Hampton isn't on the Mets. The Red Sox are almost certain to let a few of their big FAs (Veritek, Garciaparra, Pedro, Lowe) walk after the season. The only "they" I can think of is the Yankees. And they're simply in another category than the rest of the world.

My point is, you're over simplifying. Do I want Maggs back? Yes. Do I want him back no matter the cost? No. The reality is, it would not be wise for the Sox to pay more than market value for him. Do you think the Mariners regret not paying A-Rod $25 million/year? Do you think the Indians regret not paying Ramirez $18 million/year? Do you think the Mets regret not paying Hampton $15 million/year? It's one thing to retain your best players - it's another thing to overpay to retain your best players, thereby crippling your ability to put a winner on the field. I'd like for the Sox to make a fair, market offer to Maggs (in my mind, no more than 5 years at about $12.5 million/year). If he ends up going elsewhere for more money than that, so be it.

jabrch
06-11-2004, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Mmmmmmbeer:

The Sox don't have any national reputation All Stars because the Sox haven't won anything of consequence under the watch of current ownership have they?

And why haven't they won anything of any consequence?

Because they always have one of two major holes that prevent them from being an elite team.

And why do they always have one or two holes?

Because ownership considers 'fiscal responsibility' more important then taking a short term risk for long term gain.


First rule of business: "you have to spend money to make money."

Lip


It's always that easy, huh Lip? If JR spent like Hicks or Boston, we'd have as many WS as those teams, huh? Wait a sec - we do in recent history have as many championships as they do.

We shouldn't spend money like Florida and Anaheim (pre-Moreno) because, in the words of Lip, you have to spend money to make money? Lip, our payroll, as you well know, is above average. The problem isn't with how MUCH we spend - it is with how we spend it. Signing Colon or Ponson to a big deal would have crippled us. Signing Magglio to a deal that would be for Xmm per year too much is also a bad idea.

You can bitch about JR being cheap until you are blue in the face (and I mean that seriously - I know you can) but it won't change the fact that we spend enough money right now to win. If Ordonez decides that whatever he has been offered is not enough for him, then let's get Koch's contract off the books next year and see what KW does with potentially 25mm in money needing to fill holes in SP, RP, RF and CF with Reed and Borchard hopefully ready to go.

Hey, I got a better idea - let's not worry about crying about what JR might do next year and pay attention to the team that we have right now that is just a game behind the Twins in first place.

rahulsekhar
06-11-2004, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Mmmmmmbeer:

The Sox don't have any national reputation All Stars because the Sox haven't won anything of consequence under the watch of current ownership have they?

And why haven't they won anything of any consequence?

Because they always have one of two major holes that prevent them from being an elite team.

And why do they always have one or two holes?

Because ownership considers 'fiscal responsibility' more important then taking a short term risk for long term gain.


First rule of business: "you have to spend money to make money."

Lip

So I take it that only teams that win something of consequence have "national reputation all-stars" You know - guys like Vladimir Guerrero (All those Montreal titles!), Sosa (do corked batting practice HR titles count?), ARod, Griffey, Oakland's big 3, Mike Piazza, Pedro & Nomar (Boston's never made the WS with either IIRC), and a host of others? All of the above are well-known, nationally known names that haven't ever played in a WS and in some cases haven't even played in an LCS. I guess Barry Bonds was an unknown until he made the WS. And good thing for Mark McGwire that he made it in Oakland early in his career - or no one would remember his name at all!

You can't relate EVERYTHING back to Sox management's financial constraints.

Frankfan4life
06-11-2004, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by mmmmmbeeer
Exactly. So why would you choose to open your pursestrings on a guy who is/has not been in the least bit marketable? When you ask an extremely casual fan, I'm talking the Iowan Wrigley crowd, to name one guy who plays for the White Sox, I'd bet that 9/10 would answer Frank Thomas. Maggs is a helluva player but, as I pointed out earlier, he's not even a top 10 player in the league, and certainly not even in the top 25 if you were to rank name recognition amongst casual fans.

The sCrUBS haven't won anything, Boston hasn't won anything, yet guys like Nomar, Manny, Prior, Wood, Sosa are all national names. Nomar hasn't played but a couple of games this season yet the fans appear to be voting him in as the starting SS for the AL in Houston next month. Those are the guys that WILL increase revenue, WILL increase attendance, WILL provide a return on ownership's investment whether you win or not. Maggs isn't.

I agree with you that the current ownership has stymied this franchise. The last couple of years it's as if they know that the division sucks, there's no reason to invest in a large payroll, just pick up the necessary components at the deadline. It's not a bad business strategy, unfortunately it hasn't played out too well on the field. I agree that they DO need to open their pursestrings and sign high quality talent and try to keep homegrown talent. I just don't feel that Maggs has enough talent nor marketability/name recognition to warrant one of the highest salaries in the majors.

Another rule of business--"if you don't get a reciprocating return on your money, don't spend it"
Sometimes I feel like I'm in the Twiight Zone on this board. In order to win this division and go forward in the playoffs, the Sox are going to have a "money" player. Sooner or later, the Sox are going to have to pay somebody some big bucks to help this team win. There is no way the Sox are going to win anything by being cheap. Why bite the bullet now? The Sox were willing to give Colon a big contract. Why not pay the big money to a known and proven player?

If Maggs hits the FA market, he will be the hottest property in baseball. His picture will be on every sports show and he will be on the wish list of every baseball fan. The Sox will be the laughingstock of the league for letting him go. Wait and see!

(Please don't use the example that a cubfan wouldn't know who Maggs is, most of them can only name three players on their own team.)

hold2dibber
06-11-2004, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Frankfan4life
Sometimes I feel like I'm in the Twiight Zone on this board. In order to win this division and go forward in the playoffs, the Sox are going to have a "money" player. Sooner or later, the Sox are going to have to pay somebody some big bucks to help this team win. There is no way the Sox are going to win anything by being cheap. Why bite the bullet now? The Sox were willing to give Colon a big contract. Why not pay the big money to a known and proven player?

They should offer Maggs a big contract, no doubt about it. But do you think they should just give him whatever he wants? Don't you think there has to be a limit to what they're willing to pay him? Don't you think Mariners fans were saying the exact same thing before he left Seattle? The point is, you're right to an extent - the Sox have to be willing to open the purse strings if they want to win and stay competitive in this market. But I don't want them to overpay (at least not substantially) because I know that by doing so, they'll be shooting themselves in the foot in the long run.

If Maggs hits the FA market, he will be the hottest property in baseball. His picture will be on every sports show and he will be on the wish list of every baseball fan. The Sox will be the laughingstock of the league for letting him go. Wait and see!

That depends on how much he gets and how he performs thereafter. No one is saying A-Rod or Manny Ramirez haven't been great for their new teams. But the Rangers dealt A-Rod and the Red Sox were literally trying to GIVE Ramirez away (for nothing!) when they put him on waivers last off season? Why? Because there's such a thing as overpaying. If Maggs goes out and signs a $15 million/year contract with someone else. If he signs a $12 million/year contract with someone else, I'll be pissed that the Sox didn't sign him because he is worth that kind of money.

jabrch
06-11-2004, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Frankfan4life
Why not pay the big money to a known and proven player?


Because if "paying the big money" means overpaying at the only position that we really have depth in the farm system, then I'd rather not. I'd rather spend the money elsewhere (SP, RP, SS, 3B) than overpay Ordonez.

And BTW - he won't be nearly the "hot property" that Vlad, Tejada, etc. were in this offseason.

oh, and one more thing - Garrett Anderson signed for 4/48. Vlad signed for 5/70, right? Magglio belongs on the GA side of that ledger - not the Vlad side.

CWSGuy406
06-11-2004, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by Frankfan4life
Sometimes I feel like I'm in the Twiight Zone on this board. In order to win this division and go forward in the playoffs, the Sox are going to have a "money" player. Sooner or later, the Sox are going to have to pay somebody some big bucks to help this team win. There is no way the Sox are going to win anything by being cheap. Why bite the bullet now? The Sox were willing to give Colon a big contract. Why not pay the big money to a known and proven player?

If Maggs hits the FA market, he will be the hottest property in baseball. His picture will be on every sports show and he will be on the wish list of every baseball fan. The Sox will be the laughingstock of the league for letting him go. Wait and see!

(Please don't use the example that a cubfan wouldn't know who Maggs is, most of them can only name three players on their own team.)

May I ask who the Marlins money player was? Pudge? Beckett? But even Pudge/Beckett weren't making 15 million, were they?

Frankfan4life
06-11-2004, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
They should offer Maggs a big contract, no doubt about it. But do you think they should just give him whatever he wants? Don't you think there has to be a limit to what they're willing to pay him? Don't you think Mariners fans were saying the exact same thing before he left Seattle? The point is, you're right to an extent - the Sox have to be willing to open the purse strings if they want to win and stay competitive in this market. But I don't want them to overpay (at least not substantially) because I know that by doing so, they'll be shooting themselves in the foot in the long run.



That depends on how much he gets and how he performs thereafter. No one is saying A-Rod or Manny Ramirez haven't been great for their new teams. But the Rangers dealt A-Rod and the Red Sox were literally trying to GIVE Ramirez away (for nothing!) when they put him on waivers last off season? Why? Because there's such a thing as overpaying. If Maggs goes out and signs a $15 million/year contract with someone else. If he signs a $12 million/year contract with someone else, I'll be pissed that the Sox didn't sign him because he is worth that kind of money. One of our problems in discussing this issue is that we don't know what kind of money is being talked about. I wish there was a way we could know for sure what was being offered and what was being asked for. That way, it would be easy for us to determine if management is being fair or if Maggs is being greedy.

I would like to believe that Maggs was telling the truth when he said he wanted to remain on the Sox and he doesn't strike me as the greedy type. I really think management wants to use Maggs as trade bait. I really hope I am wrong.

pinwheels3530
06-11-2004, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by kittle42
They: Sign their big stars
We: Don't


THAT IS VERY TRUE & VERY SAD :(:

pinwheels3530
06-11-2004, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by mmmmmbeeer
Exactly. So why would you choose to open your pursestrings on a guy who is/has not been in the least bit marketable? When you ask an extremely casual fan, I'm talking the Iowan Wrigley crowd, to name one guy who plays for the White Sox, I'd bet that 9/10 would answer Frank Thomas. Maggs is a helluva player but, as I pointed out earlier, he's not even a top 10 player in the league, and certainly not even in the top 25 if you were to rank name recognition amongst casual fans.

The sCrUBS haven't won anything, Boston hasn't won anything, yet guys like Nomar, Manny, Prior, Wood, Sosa are all national names. Nomar hasn't played but a couple of games this season yet the fans appear to be voting him in as the starting SS for the AL in Houston next month. Those are the guys that WILL increase revenue, WILL increase attendance, WILL provide a return on ownership's investment whether you win or not. Maggs isn't.

I agree with you that the current ownership has stymied this franchise. The last couple of years it's as if they know that the division sucks, there's no reason to invest in a large payroll, just pick up the necessary components at the deadline. It's not a bad business strategy, unfortunately it hasn't played out too well on the field. I agree that they DO need to open their pursestrings and sign high quality talent and try to keep homegrown talent. I just don't feel that Maggs has enough talent nor marketability/name recognition to warrant one of the highest salaries in the majors.

Another rule of business--"if you don't get a reciprocating return on your money, don't spend it"


Becuase the sox had a buffon running the marketing dept. named Gallas, becuase sox fans are always winning turning off the casual fan, because sox fans would rather complain about blue seats to other fans than to talk, admire or appreciate their best player. SOME of the worst and cheap fans in baseball!!!! :angry:

NO disrespect to real sox fans but those other sox fans know who they are!

rahulsekhar
06-11-2004, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by pinwheels3530
Becuase the sox had a buffon running the marketing dept. named Gallas, becuase sox fans are always winning turning off the casual fan, because sox fans would rather complain about blue seats to other fans than to talk, admire or appreciate their best player. SOME of the worst and cheap fans in baseball!!!! :angry:

NO disrespect to real sox fans but those other sox fans know who they are!

I assume (and hope) you mean "whining". But it's kind of funny the other way...

pinwheels3530
06-11-2004, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Mmmmmmbeer:

The Sox don't have any national reputation All Stars because the Sox haven't won anything of consequence under the watch of current ownership have they?

And why haven't they won anything of any consequence?

Because they always have one of two major holes that prevent them from being an elite team.

And why do they always have one or two holes?

Because ownership considers 'fiscal responsibility' more important then taking a short term risk for long term gain.


First rule of business: "you have to spend money to make money."

Lip


REMEBER the wttw channel 11 interview with Sirott JR says " I am a steward for my investors I can't allowsUS :angry: to lose money" the guy doesn't believe in the first rule of business he's CHEAP!!!!!!

owensmouth
06-11-2004, 04:22 PM
What can we realisticly expect our right fielder to produce next year? 30 home runs? A .300 batting average? 100 RBIs? How about all three?

Borchard will be a switch hitting Manos with a very heavy emphasis on the strike out. Reed will bat about between .250 and .280.

Look at Miguel Olivo... now think back to last year.

Reed and Borchard will be rookies. That means they're about to begin their major league learning curves. They'll hit their prime in about 3 to 5 years.

Neither will, by themselves, replace Magglio.

Is Magglio worth 1/4 of the entire team's salary? What is the rest of the team worth?

rahulsekhar
06-11-2004, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by owensmouth
What can we realisticly expect our right fielder to produce next year? 30 home runs? A .300 batting average? 100 RBIs? How about all three?

Borchard will be a switch hitting Manos with a very heavy emphasis on the strike out. Reed will bat about between .250 and .280.

Look at Miguel Olivo... now think back to last year.

Reed and Borchard will be rookies. That means they're about to begin their major league learning curves. They'll hit their prime in about 3 to 5 years.

Neither will, by themselves, replace Magglio.

Is Magglio worth 1/4 of the entire team's salary? What is the rest of the team worth?

That's not a fair comparison, IMO because you need to factor in whatever else they do with Maggs $14mil. What it is is Reed/Borchard + Garcia + ?????(CF?) or Maggs+Rowand(CF)+Diaz/Cotts/Munoz.

jabrch
06-11-2004, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
That's not a fair comparison, IMO because you need to factor in whatever else they do with Maggs $14mil. What it is is Reed/Borchard + Garcia + ?????(CF?) or Maggs+Rowand(CF)+Diaz/Cotts/Munoz.

but JR/KW are cheap and dumb for this - according to the wealthy geniuses out there.

Frankfan4life
06-11-2004, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by CWSGuy406
May I ask who the Marlins money player was? Pudge? Beckett? But even Pudge/Beckett weren't making 15 million, were they?
Neither of them are worth $15 mil either. If the Marlins repeat this year without Pudge/Urbina/Lee, then you may have a point.

jfo go go sox
06-11-2004, 04:38 PM
I hate to see Magglio go, but I have a hard time just giving money guarenteed to a player just because he's made it. They all say it's just business. Well, I am on incentives, and if I don't live up to my end of the deal, I don't get that nice bonus. I have a "base" salary, but in order to do my jobs to my best, the money drive me just as it would a player. What's with a decent base and incentive to make Magglio go for it for all the right reasons. Insrtead of taking it easy because he hit paydirt. I understand the frustration of all those past players you mentioned -- but nome one beside Foulke that played to the same level after they left here? Can you do it, because I sure cannot. If the player stand behind the "It's business line, can't the owners." And I'm not sticking up for Reinsdorf, but that's what Free Agency has become. Sorry this is not an uplifting post, but I believe Kenny Williams will do his best to make this work.

JasonC23
06-11-2004, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Because if "paying the big money" means overpaying at the only position that we really have depth in the farm system, then I'd rather not. I'd rather spend the money elsewhere (SP, RP, SS, 3B) than overpay Ordonez.

And BTW - he won't be nearly the "hot property" that Vlad, Tejada, etc. were in this offseason.

oh, and one more thing - Garrett Anderson signed for 4/48. Vlad signed for 5/70, right? Magglio belongs on the GA side of that ledger - not the Vlad side.

As I pointed out in another thread, Maggs is younger and better than Anderson, so this "side of the ledger" thing doesn't hold up. Vlad is better, obviously, but Maggs is closer to Vlad than Anderson.

Hmm, so, maybe, 4/$52 or 5/$65 is a good price for Maggs?

pinwheels3530
06-11-2004, 04:47 PM
Why does everyone think Borchard/Reed are a sure thing in the Majors. There going to be rookies and go through their struggles Magss is proven all star right fielder who is underrated & unappreciated by his own fans (now he knows how Frank feels)
KEEP MAGGS don't over pay, but keep your star player trade one of "THE GREATEST OUTFIELD DUO OF ALL TIME FROM YOUR VERY OWN CHARLOTTE KNIGHTS I STRIKE OUT TOO MUCH JOE BORCHARD & JEREMY I AM A SUPERSTAR BEFORE I HAVE EVEN SEEN MAJOR LEAGUE PITCHING REED" for a ace pitcher and let's make a run for the playoffs I don't want to hear "what about the future crap" I AM TIRED OF WAITING LETS WIN NOW!!!

TommyJohn
06-11-2004, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Tekijawa



Welcome to the life of a Sox fan. I've put up with Fisk being locked out of the Stadium, the '94 season, Blue Seats, steep upperdecks, Rising ticket/beer/Nacho Prices, Idoits running around on the field (Players and fans), The Cubs in the NLCS, Jamie Navarro, Albert Belle, and




Terry Bevington



AAAAAAAAGGHHHHH!!!! Bevington!!BEVINGTON!! Why the
hell did you have to remind me of that idiot moron goof jackass
doofus dimbulb doofus jackass goof moron idiot??!! There goes
my season!! :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

Frankfan4life
06-11-2004, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
This wasn't the main thrust of your point, but it's interesting to note that Colon, Alvarez, Hernandez, Durham have all done little to nothing since leaving the Sox. And IMO Colon was overpaid by Anaheim, it wasn't any gimmicky or cheap contract that made him leave.

Apparently, they never even talked $$$ - couldn't agree on the # of years (which seems odd). Which makes it seem like Maggs really wants to hit FA - I don't see the Sox coming in saying "we won't go to 4 years for you". Not at his age & position. Funny, I saw it differently. I took it as the Sox being the ones not wanting to offer a long-term deal because they want to use Maggs to get some pitching and to save some money. I can almost bet they used his recent injury as a reason why such long-term deals would be risky for management.

34 Inch Stick
06-11-2004, 05:55 PM
There are certain players that come along who can be the icons of your team for generations. These are usually players who have come up through the organization and spent their entire careers (or at least an overwhelming majority of years) with that team. People like Frank, Ripken, Sandberg. Both the player and the team should recognize the unique opportunity afforded to them and make sure they do nothing to spoil the opportunity.

I have always looked differently upon Griffey's career since he left Seattle. While I love Fisk and consider him ours, he equally belongs to the Red Sox fans.

We are blessed with having two people on this team who can achieve icon status. This is incredibly lucky as some teams never have such a player. We had a 15 year dry spell where we had to pretend that Minnie Minoso was relevant to the modern fan. Frank looks like he will end his career here. I would hate to see the opportunity lost on Maggs.

Jurr
06-11-2004, 05:57 PM
Look at the Alex Rodriguez situation in Seattle and in Texas. They both improved immensely when the big salary was gone. You take away a big hunk of salary and fill it in with guys that are a little less explosive but solid. It's the way the last 3 world series teams were built and the way other sports teams have been put together, such as New England. I love Maggs, but if we can get a guy in here to hit 20-25 homers and bat .275 while playing a good outfield, we can take the rest of the money and buy some great pitching and some solid help elsewhere.
The funny thing is seeing Maggs with no bats to protect him. That's going to be funny. It's okay, Sox fans

jeremyb1
06-11-2004, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Who is "they"? Last I checked, neither Sheffield, Glavine or Maddux is on the Braves. Jason Giambi isn't on the A's. A-Rod isn't on the Mariners. Piazza isn't on the Dodgers. Neither Ramirez nor Thome is on the Indians. Ivan Rodriguez is not on the Rangers (or the Marlins). Mike Hampton isn't on the Mets. The Red Sox are almost certain to let a few of their big FAs (Veritek, Garciaparra, Pedro, Lowe) walk after the season. The only "they" I can think of is the Yankees. And they're simply in another category than the rest of the world.

Outstanding post. Posters on this board seem to be under the impression we're the cheapest franchise in the majors and the only team every to fail to resign a star player. It's mind boggling. Frank? Resigned. Maggs? Resigned at a hefty salary several years back. Paully? Overpaid to lock him up. Carlos? probably overpaid to secure him for another year. Buehrle? Finally got his big extension after hundreds of posts about his imminent departure to St. Louis.

jeremyb1
06-11-2004, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
They should offer Maggs a big contract, no doubt about it. But do you think they should just give him whatever he wants? Don't you think there has to be a limit to what they're willing to pay him? Don't you think Mariners fans were saying the exact same thing before he left Seattle? The point is, you're right to an extent - the Sox have to be willing to open the purse strings if they want to win and stay competitive in this market. But I don't want them to overpay (at least not substantially) because I know that by doing so, they'll be shooting themselves in the foot in the long run.

This is what drives me insane about these posts. Making arguments about how important it is to show the fans and other players and agents that we'll resign our players seem to argue that Maggs should be resigned for whatever he asks based on principle alone. Correct me if I'm wrong here but as Sox fans, isn't the bottom line winning ballgames? I want to sign the free agent at the best value this offseason so we can win as many games as possible next season. Yet people seem to be arguing we should bury ourselves under an albatross of a contract just to prove a point (which is that we're ignorant and will cave to any demands made by players/agents). Great, it's okay if we're in last place as long as people know that we have a commitment to resigning our players.

hold2dibber
06-11-2004, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
This is what drives me insane about these posts. Making arguments about how important it is to show the fans and other players and agents that we'll resign our players seem to argue that Maggs should be resigned for whatever he asks based on principle alone. Correct me if I'm wrong here but as Sox fans, isn't the bottom line winning ballgames? I want to sign the free agent at the best value this offseason so we can win as many games as possible next season. Yet people seem to be arguing we should bury ourselves under an albatross of a contract just to prove a point (which is that we're ignorant and will cave to any demands made by players/agents). Great, it's okay if we're in last place as long as people know that we have a commitment to resigning our players.

Ha! Perfect.

CanOfCorn
06-11-2004, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by joeynach
Maggs is one of the best all around platers there is. Colon was just a retard.


Hilarious.

Lip Man 1
06-11-2004, 11:22 PM
Jabrch says: "You can bitch about JR being cheap until you are blue in the face (and I mean that seriously - I know you can) but it won't change the fact that we spend enough money right now to win."

Except of course for one small little, tiny problem....

The Sox haven't won have they?

They haven't even been able to win the A.L. "Comedy" Central division let alone get to a World Series have they? Why because they always have one or two holes that kill them.

And with respect, I'd say that the nation's third largest market spending 65 million on payroll is ludicrous.

If the Sox had been to say a single World Series oh I don't know, in the last forty years, I could buy your arguement.

But as we all know they haven't.

Lip

rahulsekhar
06-11-2004, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Jabrch says: "You can bitch about JR being cheap until you are blue in the face (and I mean that seriously - I know you can) but it won't change the fact that we spend enough money right now to win."

Except of course for one small little, tiny problem....

The Sox haven't won have they?

They haven't even been able to win the A.L. "Comedy" Central division let alone get to a World Series have they? Why because they always have one or two holes that kill them.

And with respect, I'd say that the nation's third largest market spending 65 million on payroll is ludicrous.

If the Sox had been to say a single World Series oh I don't know, in the last forty years, I could buy your arguement.

But as we all know they haven't.

Lip

Lip: There are many things that the Sox have done and many that they haven't done in that time period. They haven't ever sold sushi in the ballpark (IIRC) - does that mean that that's somehow linked to their not winning?

The payroll is above average in MLB for a team that splits the 3d largest market with another team. That seems not only not ludicrous, but actually about right - as much as I'd like to see it higher as a fan.

The team as constituted last year SHOULD have won. The team as constituted this year should win (and is winning plenty of games, by the way). And all reports are that the Sox can take on additional payroll to help make midseason trades happen. The answer to everything isn't "spend more". And it actually can happen that the Sox don't sign someone not because they're cheap, but because someone else overpays (i.e. Colon).

duke of dorwood
06-11-2004, 11:43 PM
The lower payroll wouldnt bother me so much if

1. They werent making money

2. They'd stop crying about it

Soxfest
06-12-2004, 12:53 AM
I think Maggs wants to go at this point.

beckett21
06-12-2004, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by Soxfest
I think Maggs wants to go at this point.

I don't know that he *wants to go * but it is obvious that he definitely wants to test his market value.

He said in the preseason that this was probably going to be his last shot at a big long term contract, and he wanted to get the best deal he could.

As said by many others in this thread, the Sox cannot be faulted for not caving in to Maggs *extortion*. I am not saying Magglio is doing this exactly, but it is very clear that he has a desire to test the market.

Can't really fault either side on this one. Maggs sees this as his window of opportunity to cash in, and the Sox are unwilling to mortgage their future by paying him Vlad money for 6 years.

Loyalty does not exist in this marketplace anymore. If you want to blame someone, blame Curt Flood. But guess what, at the end of the day both sides have to keep their best interests in mind. It's sad, and I would hate to see Maggs go. But if paying him cripples the franchise in the way A-Rod did to Texas, that would not be acceptable.

batmanZoSo
06-12-2004, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
I don't know if you notced but this has been going on for longer than Just Maggs... Anyone remember what they did with Fisk or what they did with Frank's contract, the only future hall of fammer on the team right now. I don't think that this situation will finally hammer in the last nail to the Free agent coffin as they will still go to who ever has the deepest pockets... what we need is deeper pockets not a better "player relations" department. When's the last time you saw a player give a hometown discount? Mike Sweeney? and look how that's turned out he's half the player, when he plays, that he used to be...

If Maggs wants 15 mill a year for 7 years, good luck getting that we shouldn't have to pay him that much because "he likes it here" I'd rather have Beltran for that money or 2 pitchers... We're going to have close to 30 million to play with next season. With Maggs, Koch, and Manos all becoming Free agents that's more than likely enough to fill a couple of our holes with some quality players, especially with the scouting system we seem to have.

Would I like ot keep maggs, yes, but not for "player realtions" reasons!

Maggs is also a future hall of famer. Especially now that he'll be roaming the hallowed grounds of the Fenway outfield in 05. Oh, he'll be a legend I tell ya. Just watch it happen.

mediasblancas
06-12-2004, 02:47 AM
Put aside all other issues, the only thing that matters is what happens with Magglio's contract. This is a moment of truth for management.

Magglio must be resigned. He is obviously an outstanding player. However, his profile as a person and competitor make him exemplary in the sport. A baseball franchise simply does not move certain personnel. Would Baltimore ever have seriously considered moving Ripken Jr. for instance? The Yankees Jeter? Magglio for the next five to six years in right field is the stuff of heroes. For a team that is largely a mid-market team that kind of thing is essential.

The business model is not that of the Yankees, Angels, Dodgers and blueys. Teams like the Sox have to build and make franchise players. They made this kind of investment in Frank. Albeit the Sox stingily hedged their bet with him. Now that Frank is all but the all-time statistical Sox in every category in the history of all Soxdom, we can conclude that it wasn't too bad a bet on ownership's part.

Build the damn team around Ordonez, just like you built the team in the 90's around the Hurt, as painful as it sometimes has been.

Ownership should not even be putting Maggs through this gossipy, dirtying process. Make the deal and shut up. Stop with the media nonsense. Five year$75 sounds about right, and without alot of deferred this and that language. Please. Management got their money's worth all those years bringing him up. Maggs didn't get Borchard's contract. What did it cost them to get him here from Venezuela, 13 years ago when he was 17? 5 grand, 10 grand, including air fare?

ROI is cool and all, but running a shoe factory or a real estate business is not the same as running an organization so oriented around people, the public and personnel development. At a certain point if you don't desire to reward an employee, a player, a person representing probably the best the Sox and baseball can come up with along these lines then you are in the wrong business, and should go away. Failure by management here should mean the end of the current ownership group.

pinwheels3530
06-12-2004, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by mediasblancas
Put aside all other issues, the only thing that matters is what happens with Magglio's contract. This is a moment of truth for management.

Magglio must be resigned. He is obviously an outstanding player. However, his profile as a person and competitor make him exemplary in the sport. A baseball franchise simply does not move certain personnel. Would Baltimore ever have seriously considered moving Ripken Jr. for instance? The Yankees Jeter? Magglio for the next five to six years in right field is the stuff of heroes. For a team that is largely a mid-market team that kind of thing is essential.

The business model is not that of the Yankees, Angels, Dodgers and blueys. Teams like the Sox have to build and make franchise players. They made this kind of investment in Frank. Albeit the Sox stingily hedged their bet with him. Now that Frank is all but the all-time statistical Sox in every category in the history of all Soxdom, we can conclude that it wasn't too bad a bet on ownership's part.

Build the damn team around Ordonez, just like you built the team in the 90's around the Hurt, as painful as it sometimes has been.

Ownership should not even be putting Maggs through this gossipy, dirtying process. Make the deal and shut up. Stop with the media nonsense. Five year$75 sounds about right, and without alot of deferred this and that language. Please. Management got their money's worth all those years bringing him up. Maggs didn't get Borchard's contract. What did it cost them to get him here from Venezuela, 13 years ago when he was 17? 5 grand, 10 grand, including air fare?

ROI is cool and all, but running a shoe factory or a real estate business is not the same as running an organization so oriented around people, the public and personnel development. At a certain point if you don't desire to reward an employee, a player, a person representing probably the best the Sox and baseball can come up with along these lines then you are in the wrong business, and should go away. Failure by management here should mean the end of the current ownership group.


Hmmmmmm.....is that you Mariotti?

StockdaleForVeep
06-12-2004, 03:09 AM
Originally posted by Irishsox1
Free agents leaving or big stars being traded have a way of working out. Seattle traded away Randy Johnson and Ken Griffey Jr. and then won 116 in 2001. Of couse at the time, I'm sure Seattle fans felt that playing baseball without Griffey and Johnson would totally suck, but these things have a way of working out. Chicago White Sox Baseball will continue without Magglio Ordonez. Some other star player will come along, they always do.


Trading griffey, johnson and arod. 3 all stars and certain hall of famers, hell at the time griffey was the hottest thing around since solar fusion. They got a load of hi caliber prospects whom were proven. Magglio is not on the same level as an arod or griffey yet, so how could you even compare the 2. What players\prospects are out there do u see the sox getting for magglio that would make us the stud team like seattle then...or houston(when they traded johnson)

Dan H
06-12-2004, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
This wasn't the main thrust of your point, but it's interesting to note that Colon, Alvarez, Hernandez, Durham have all done little to nothing since leaving the Sox. And IMO Colon was overpaid by Anaheim, it wasn't any gimmicky or cheap contract that made him leave.

Apparently, they never even talked $$$ - couldn't agree on the # of years (which seems odd). Which makes it seem like Maggs really wants to hit FA - I don't see the Sox coming in saying "we won't go to 4 years for you". Not at his age & position.

Ventura and Foulke have done just fine and Hernandez has 320 career saves so he must have done a few things since leaving the Sox.

One true fact here is that we really don't know what is exactly has been put on the table. We do know that in 1997 we were told how smart a rebuidling from the ground effort was, but many of us wondered what would happen once the budding stars were eligible for some big money. You have to pay somebody sometime.

Since the great rebuilding effort, the Sox have won one division title and no playoff games. They did nothing in the last off season, and now they just have a so-so record. I don't want or expect a Yankee type budget. But sometimes you have to open your pocket book.

Ordonez has done a lot for this team. If the club doesn't sign him, it sends a bad message to the fans and to other players. Besides, everytime I hear that the Sox are so smart for not paying certain players, I keep remembering that they have no one the replace the player once he leaves. Remember how great it was to have Greg Norton at third instead of Ventura? Who will fill the void once Maggs leaves? Borchard? You have to be kidding. Are we ready for more rebuilding? How many more years of mid-80 winning totals do you want? Doesn't 1959 sound like an awful long time ago?

Lip Man 1
06-12-2004, 01:02 PM
Dan:

Right on the money, expect 1959 doesn't sound like a long time ago to those who were born say in 1980.

The perception of things based on generations, is part of the reason why there are such 'intense' discussions here at WSI. I'm sure the opinions of those who were born in the 80's will be very different if the Sox are still struggling to find a World Series in say 2015.

I found 'media's' comment to be quite good as well. When the White Flag Trade was done in July 1997 comments were made by ownership and from high level Sox executives talking about the same areas, 'character, fan friendly, hustling' and so forth.

Mags has shown every one of those qualities since he's been in the big leagues. You never read about him on the front page of the papers getting arrested, for example. He seems to get along well with the fans. What more can the organization want from a player?

If the organization's attitude is 'what have you done for me lately?' I can also live with that. But then don't make comments like were made back in 1997 talking about 'intangibles.'

You can't have it both ways.

Lip

soxtalker
06-12-2004, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Dan:

Right on the money, expect 1959 doesn't sound like a long time ago to those who were born say in 1980.

The perception of things based on generations, is part of the reason why there are such 'intense' discussions here at WSI. I'm sure the opinions of those who were born in the 80's will be very different if the Sox are still struggling to find a World Series in say 2015.
...

Lip

I found your comment interesting, as I've also had the impression that fans of different ages view things differently. However, I think that my views are quite different from yours, and my assumption about age effects was almost opposite to yours! I'm slightly older than you (early 50's), and I became a Sox fan a year or two after the '59 series. My perception has been that it is the younger fans that mostly tend to want to "win it now" and "worry about next year when next year comes."

I come down on the side of those who worry about giving away prospects for rent-a-players. While I want to see us win this year, I also believe that KW can trade away all the prospects for top starts, and we may still not even get to the WS. There's luck and uncontrollable variables for both us and our competition. So, I want to make sure that we're in the battle next year -- and that's where the farm system and prospects come in.

I've read and participated in the debates, and I'm not really trying to start it up again here. But raising the question of how fans from different eras view things is interesting in itself. I'd like to think that the fact that the Sox haven't won since 1917 has a big effect on my views, but, then again, I don't know if it would be much different for me if the Sox had won the WS in 1959.

CanOfCorn
06-12-2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I'd like to think that the fact that the Sox haven't won since 1917 has a big effect on my views, but, then again, I don't know if it would be much different for me if the Sox had won the WS in 1959.

We're one unfortunate season away from being the most pathetic franchise in baseball. Last year was too damn close for comfort. Thank God for the Bartman game.

StockdaleForVeep
06-12-2004, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by CanOfCorn
We're one unfortunate season away from being the most pathetic franchise in baseball. Last year was too damn close for comfort. Thank God for the Bartman game.


Think of it this way, if we became the current holders of the world series drought, maybe we'd become the new loveable losers and sell out every game and the scrubs draw jack due to the fact nobody will come to see a winning team anymore?

jeremyb1
06-14-2004, 02:21 AM
The lower payroll wouldnt bother me so much if

1. They werent making money


Because most teams operate at a loss? What do you actually believe Selig and the owners? Every team, Yankees in particular despite their large payroll rake in tons of money. That's how businesses continue to operate and those involved in large corporations tend to be greedy and make huge profits. Baseball is no different.

The lower payroll wouldnt bother me so much if
2. They'd stop crying about it

Who's crying? JR is agreeing to add salary. Every team limits their payroll at some point. It's crying for the Sox to say we can't afford more than a 67 million but not for the Dodgers to say they can't afford more than 100 million?

milrtyme28
06-14-2004, 03:28 AM
did anyone watching todays game see maggs and KW watching the game from the fan deck? it looked like they were having some kind of conversation, and as far as i am concerned, any conversation they are having is positive.

i agree that we shouldnt overpay for this guy, and if I was in magg's shoes, ( especially given the sox histerical ( oh im sorry - i meant historical ) reluctance to pay up, i would probably want to see what the market bears as well.

I just hope he likes playing here enough and the sox like him enough to hang on to him. he is a franchise player after all, and not only does he put up consistant solid numbers but sox fans identify with him as a cornerstone of the team. in a market where the sox are not the most favored team ( unfortunately) I think that the sox need to do what they can to hang on to maggs, or if he is going to cost too much they need to fill his spot with players that will keep the wins rolling in to compensate for his loss. if they save 14M next year by not signing maggs they need to pick up a marquis player to fill in his spot. ( not necessarily his position, but his recognition level and skill )

owensmouth
06-14-2004, 04:51 AM
This year the Sox are paying Magglio fourteen million dollars.

What are the rules about how much of a pay cut the Sox can offer Maggs? Does the basic agreement have anything to say about pay cuts?

If the basic agreement says no more than a 10% cut, then the least per year the Sox could offer him is 12.6 million.

Also, can the Sox get insurance for a four year contract? How about a five year contract?

gosox41
06-14-2004, 10:21 AM
This year the Sox are paying Magglio fourteen million dollars.

What are the rules about how much of a pay cut the Sox can offer Maggs? Does the basic agreement have anything to say about pay cuts?

If the basic agreement says no more than a 10% cut, then the least per year the Sox could offer him is 12.6 million.

Also, can the Sox get insurance for a four year contract? How about a five year contract?
There is no rules about pay cuts unless a player is offered arbitration. Then they can't take more then a 20% pay cut. It's why the Sox didn't offer Aloomar and Everett arbitration last year. In all odds, they would have accepted and would have gotten paid 20% less then this season.

If a player is a FA (and not offered arbitration) he can sign a non-guaranteed minor league contract.

As for insurance, it's been a tricky issue the last few years. Premiums have sky rocketed. Add to this that insurance companies are no longer insuring pre-existing conditions like they used to. They're also insuring for less years on the contract (hence paying out more premium if you want to add on.) Thome is a good example. When he signed his contract with the Phillies the Phillies insured him. But they couldn't get coverage on his back since he has a history of back injuries. The insurance company didn't like the risk.

I know there are insurance companies that will insure just about anything and everything, but the flip side is they'll charge you up the wazoo for it. It doesn't always make sense to insure a player at all costs if it's going to cost a ton of money, so it's a lot more complicated then saying 'call Lloyds of London, they'll insure it'. Sure they probably will, but at what cost?


Bob

rahulsekhar
06-14-2004, 10:35 AM
Trading griffey, johnson and arod. 3 all stars and certain hall of famers, hell at the time griffey was the hottest thing around since solar fusion. They got a load of hi caliber prospects whom were proven. Magglio is not on the same level as an arod or griffey yet, so how could you even compare the 2. What players\prospects are out there do u see the sox getting for magglio that would make us the stud team like seattle then...or houston(when they traded johnson)
OK - so you admit that Maggs doesn't have the value of top guys like ARod, Griffey, etc......yet you still think he should be paid one of the top salaries in the game? Maggs isn't near as good a plyer as Vlady - but you think he should get the same salary (or more)?

Something doesn't connect here, no?

rahulsekhar
06-14-2004, 10:40 AM
I found 'media's' comment to be quite good as well. When the White Flag Trade was done in July 1997 comments were made by ownership and from high level Sox executives talking about the same areas, 'character, fan friendly, hustling' and so forth.

Mags has shown every one of those qualities since he's been in the big leagues. You never read about him on the front page of the papers getting arrested, for example. He seems to get along well with the fans. What more can the organization want from a player?

If the organization's attitude is 'what have you done for me lately?' I can also live with that. But then don't make comments like were made back in 1997 talking about 'intangibles.'

You can't have it both ways.

Lip
Who's trying to "have it both ways"? There are 2 things that you look for in a player: performance, and "fan-friendliness". Maggs has solid performance and solid fan-friendliness. He's not the superstar that Vlady is, and he's not the crowd-pleasing draw that players like Sosa or even Kerry Wood are.

If your argument is that you should overpay a very good player and treat him as a superstar salary-wise because he's a solid citizen, I have to respectfully disagree. The comments around the WFT were all about having top players who were also fan-friendly. Not about valuing personality over everything else.

Maggs is worth less than Vlady. The market says that's $14mil. If Maggs wants more, then he's asking someone to overpay him, and that someone then takes on the burden that unless you have no financial constraints (i.e. Yankees), that takes away from somewhere else on the team.

rahulsekhar
06-14-2004, 10:53 AM
Jabrch says: "You can bitch about JR being cheap until you are blue in the face (and I mean that seriously - I know you can) but it won't change the fact that we spend enough money right now to win."

Except of course for one small little, tiny problem....

The Sox haven't won have they?

They haven't even been able to win the A.L. "Comedy" Central division let alone get to a World Series have they? Why because they always have one or two holes that kill them.

And with respect, I'd say that the nation's third largest market spending 65 million on payroll is ludicrous.

If the Sox had been to say a single World Series oh I don't know, in the last forty years, I could buy your arguement.

But as we all know they haven't.

Lip
Lip:

The Sox haven't used a four-man rotation for most/all of the period since 1959: Is that why they haven't won?

They haven't signed a two-sport athlete who plays both professionally while with the team: is that why they haven't won?

They haven't converted a knuckleballer into a closer (IIRC): is that why they haven't won?

Some of those are ludicrous examples, but the point is that it's silly IMO to point at financials as the only and prime reason why they haven't won since 1959. Multiple ownership groups, multiple management & organizational styles, multiple financial situations have existed across that period, so your constant "they should spend because that's why they haven't won since 1959, and anyone born after that date doesn't have the proper frame of reference" is off base (and on a side note: personally, a bit condescending).

Teams have won with larger and smaller payrolls, with more and with fewer veterans, with better pitching and with worse. And as noted elsewhere, the Sox have actually been one of the more consistently successful teams over the past 10 or so years - among the top teams in games won and never near the bottom (never a top 10 draft pick) during that time. So something's working, but they haven't had the right combination of talent, management, luck to be one of the 4 teams to represent the AL in the WS in the past 11 years.