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View Full Version : Southtown: Maggs Contract talks have broken off


CubKiller
06-11-2004, 07:17 AM
Here's the story by Joe Cowley (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/111sd1.htm)

TornLabrum
06-11-2004, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by CubKiller
Here's the story by Joe Cowley (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/111sd1.htm)

And once again our fabulous ownerships cuts off its nose to spite its face. I almost hope he signs with the Twins so he can stick it to them 19 times a year.

mmmmmbeeer
06-11-2004, 07:27 AM
Let him walk. He's not worth the money he's seeking, not even close. We've got a ton of money coming off the books this offseason, we'll be able to fill any hole that Maggs leaves behind.

gosox41
06-11-2004, 07:35 AM
Originally posted by mmmmmbeeer
Let him walk. He's not worth the money he's seeking, not even close. We've got a ton of money coming off the books this offseason, we'll be able to fill any hole that Maggs leaves behind.

I agree. I love Magglio, but it's hard to think he's worth more money per year then Vlad. I know it's a simplistic idea to compare Vlad signing last year when the market could turn upward for salaries in 2004, but Vlad is the most comparable player to Magglio.

I say give him the exact same contract as Vlad and be done with it if that's what it comes to.



Bob

Parrothead
06-11-2004, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by mmmmmbeeer
Let him walk. He's not worth the money he's seeking, not even close. We've got a ton of money coming off the books this offseason, we'll be able to fill any hole that Maggs leaves behind.


This sucks. Without Mags they will suck. Just look at their current record. Who is going to want to come here when management will not pay?

:maggs

Managment will not pay, so I must go.

mmmmmbeeer
06-11-2004, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
I agree. I love Magglio, but it's hard to think he's worth more money per year then Vlad. I know it's a simplistic idea to compare Vlad signing last year when the market could turn upward for salaries in 2004, but Vlad is the most comparable player to Magglio.

I say give him the exact same contract as Vlad and be done with it if that's what it comes to.



Bob

So you're telling me that you'd take Maggs over Vlad for the same money??? Vlad is the best player in MLB, hands down. Maggs is struggling to get in the top 10, IMO.

1. Vlad
2. Bonds
3. A-Rod
4. Pujols
5. Rolen
6. Helton
7. Sheffield
8. Manny
9. Berkman
10. Beltran/Maggs/Abreu/Thome/Delgado(horrid this season)

Would you take Maggs over Tejada? Would you take Maggs over I-Rod? Would you take Maggs over Javy Lopez? All these guys are 2-4M LESS per year than what Maggs is looking for, and they actually play positions that are tougher to fill. I will be p.o.'d if the Sox pay Maggs more than $11.5M/yr. He hasn't done enough to earn any higher amount. He's not even a perennial all-star, which says a WHOLE bunch about his marketability, and he wants top money???? No way.

Now I love Maggs playing for the Sox but I don't want to see this franchise dig itself into a hole overpaying a guy because the media says they have to.

mmmmmbeeer
06-11-2004, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by Parrothead
This sucks. Without Mags they will suck. Just look at their current record. Who is going to want to come here when management will not pay?

:maggs

Managment will not pay, so I must go.

--$14M off the books next season with Maggs gone
--$6M off the books next season with Koch gone
--24% attendance increase, which should atleast keep pace through the rest of the season. If 10% of the increase goes to payroll, that another $6-7M next season
--new TV deal should increase revenues

So you're looking at probably $26M in freed up money this offseason and you only lose Koch and Maggs, two players whose #'s will be VERY easy to replace via trades or FA. You can't compare the Sox now without Maggs to the Sox next season without Maggs. We've done nothing to replace him while he's on the DL and we're playing .500 ball, which should be well over .500 ball with a dependable closer. Next season we'll have free money to replace him. It's a ridiculous comparison.

TornLabrum
06-11-2004, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by mmmmmbeeer
--$14M off the books next season with Maggs gone
--$6M off the books next season with Koch gone
--24% attendance increase, which should atleast keep pace through the rest of the season. If 10% of the increase goes to payroll, that another $6-7M next season
--new TV deal should increase revenues

So you're looking at probably $26M in freed up money this offseason and you only lose Koch and Maggs, two players whose #'s will be VERY easy to replace via trades or FA. You can't compare the Sox now without Maggs to the Sox next season without Maggs. We've done nothing to replace him while he's on the DL and we're playing .500 ball, which should be well over .500 ball with a dependable closer. Next season we'll have free money to replace him. It's a ridiculous comparison.

Who says they'll spend the money on players?

mmmmmbeeer
06-11-2004, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Who says they'll spend the money on players?

Even if they leave payroll where it's at you're still looking at $20M off the books.

I think you're entirely too cynical. There's no question that in the past the Sox have been cheap, I'm not going to argue with you on that. But I at the same time I can't remember them ever lowering payroll from one season to the next.

jabrch
06-11-2004, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Who says they'll spend the money on players?

History says they will Hal. If Magglio doesn't want to stay here, for what looks to be a very reasonable sum of money, then that's his choice. But I won't cry about losing him since it looks like management made a good faith effort to sign him. There may not be many guys of Magglio's calibre out there, but that doesn't mean I want to overpay by giving him a Vlad type deal. It's not sensible. With 26mm available, we can get Beltran, a RP and a SP. Assumedly Reed or Borchard will be ready next year and our OF is Lee, Beltran, Reed/Borchard. With Uribe and Harris in the MI, PK and Crede? at the corners. I think that's a solid offense.

I'll miss you Magglio - but if the money isn't good enough for you, however much it is, buh bye.

hold2dibber
06-11-2004, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
History says they will Hal. If Magglio doesn't want to stay here, for what looks to be a very reasonable sum of money, then that's his choice. But I won't cry about losing him since it looks like management made a good faith effort to sign him. There may not be many guys of Magglio's calibre out there, but that doesn't mean I want to overpay by giving him a Vlad type deal. It's not sensible. With 26mm available, we can get Beltran, a RP and a SP. Assumedly Reed or Borchard will be ready next year and our OF is Lee, Beltran, Reed/Borchard. With Uribe and Harris in the MI, PK and Crede? at the corners. I think that's a solid offense.

I'll miss you Magglio - but if the money isn't good enough for you, however much it is, buh bye.

(1) Beltran will not be here next year - no way. With all the OF prospects the Sox have and the fact that the Yankees covet Beltran, it ain't gonna happen. (But I agree with your basic premise - i.e., that the money Maggs is seeking could be put to better use.)

(2) "Assumedly"? :?: :D:

hold2dibber
06-11-2004, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by mmmmmbeeer
--$14M off the books next season with Maggs gone
--$6M off the books next season with Koch gone
--24% attendance increase, which should atleast keep pace through the rest of the season. If 10% of the increase goes to payroll, that another $6-7M next season
--new TV deal should increase revenues

So you're looking at probably $26M in freed up money this offseason and you only lose Koch and Maggs, two players whose #'s will be VERY easy to replace via trades or FA. You can't compare the Sox now without Maggs to the Sox next season without Maggs. We've done nothing to replace him while he's on the DL and we're playing .500 ball, which should be well over .500 ball with a dependable closer. Next season we'll have free money to replace him. It's a ridiculous comparison.

Valentin also comes off ($5 million)
Loaiza comes off (though I sure hope they re-sign him before then)
I'm not sure who is in for a big raise - but probably Lee, PK, Frank, and Buehrle. I can't remember if Garland and Schoenweiss signed 1-year deals or multi-year deals.

thepaulbowski
06-11-2004, 09:09 AM
Maybe Hawk was right in that Magglio & his agent wanted to explore the free agent market this offseason. Would I like Maggs to stay? Yes. But I don't want the Sox to overpay for him either. If he's asking for Vlad money, he should watch some Sportscenter. Vlad is much better than he is. The guy has unbelievable plate coverage (half of the hits he gets are balls off the plate it seems.) And he's doing this with no protection around him right now, half of his team is hurt.

DrCrawdad
06-11-2004, 09:09 AM
I just hope that Magglio does NOT sign with the Cubbies.

Buh-bye Magglio. You greedy (illegitimate son).

misty60481
06-11-2004, 09:13 AM
Maggs is a pretty class guy maybe we should find out what kind of contract was offered before we start calling him greedy--you know JR has a habit of deffering money on contracts

TornLabrum
06-11-2004, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by mmmmmbeeer
Even if they leave payroll where it's at you're still looking at $20M off the books.

I think you're entirely too cynical. There's no question that in the past the Sox have been cheap, I'm not going to argue with you on that. But I at the same time I can't remember them ever lowering payroll from one season to the next.
Try after 1997...Hell, try DURING 1997.

TornLabrum
06-11-2004, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
History says they will Hal. If Magglio doesn't want to stay here, for what looks to be a very reasonable sum of money, then that's his choice. But I won't cry about losing him since it looks like management made a good faith effort to sign him. There may not be many guys of Magglio's calibre out there, but that doesn't mean I want to overpay by giving him a Vlad type deal. It's not sensible. With 26mm available, we can get Beltran, a RP and a SP. Assumedly Reed or Borchard will be ready next year and our OF is Lee, Beltran, Reed/Borchard. With Uribe and Harris in the MI, PK and Crede? at the corners. I think that's a solid offense.

I'll miss you Magglio - but if the money isn't good enough for you, however much it is, buh bye.

What exact history are you talking about? The one where they dump players as soon as they become eligible for free agency so they can bring up "young talent"? All those pennants we've won? The history that includes the White Flag Trade (TM)? Please tell me exactly what history of the Sox you're reading.

sas1974
06-11-2004, 09:17 AM
First of all, there's not enough information released to start jumping all over Maggs just yet. Only a few people know exactly the $$ and years that he was asking for and I guarantee they are not posting here.

Second, Magg's numbers will be easy to replace? That's crazy! With whom I might ask? Do you think Borchard or golden boy Reed are going to come up next year and put up .300/30/100? If you do, you're dreaming. Even if one of them does that, what about the other outfield spot where there is already a void? If he does leave, it may open the door for a slim shot at Beltran, but they should serve to drive each other's prices up if they are both on the market. People will be stepping over each other to get one of these guys, maybe both(King George).

For the record, I don't think Maggs is worth more than Vlad, but I also hate to see home-grown, no drama talent walk away. I will reserve judgement on both sides until I hear further details.

TornLabrum
06-11-2004, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by misty60481
Maggs is a pretty class guy maybe we should find out what kind of contract was offered before we start calling him greedy--you know JR has a habit of deffering money on contracts

And don't forget the World Famous Diminished Skills Clause (TM).

soxtalker
06-11-2004, 09:20 AM
I'm sorry to see him go, but I want KW to exercise some fiscal restraint. I'd like the team to have some financial flexibility next year.

I hope that this means that he doesn't trade either Reed or Borchard. While I'm not convinced that both will be big stars, I'm not sure which one I'd place my bet on.

I wonder if the injury had any effect on the negotiations -- and if it affects Maggs' overall value when this all plays out.

Dadawg_77
06-11-2004, 09:36 AM
Mags for Glavine and then trade for Beltran? Would that work? The Mets want Mags in the off season, acquiring him now would put them a step up on competition. Glavine is pitching his ass off this year, and would greatly help this team. Beltran would replace Mags production at the plate.

fledgedrallycap
06-11-2004, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Mags for Glavine and then trade for Beltran?

In a heartbeat.

wdelaney72
06-11-2004, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
And don't forget the World Famous Diminished Skills Clause (TM).

That's crap. I think ALL of the players should have diminished skills clauses. I know that's not realistic, but these players should be accountable for their performance on the field.

Jamie Navarro? Billy Koch? Both great arguments for diminished skills clauses.

Procol Harum
06-11-2004, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I'm sorry to see him go, but I want KW to exercise some fiscal restraint. I'd like the team to have some financial flexibility next year.

Oh, I don't think you need worry about JR insisting that KW exercise "fiscal restraint." That's a good one!


I hope that this means that he doesn't trade either Reed or Borchard. While I'm not convinced that both will be big stars, I'm not sure which one I'd place my bet on.

Given the mysteries of baseball and prospect development, I'd be happy if just one of them turns out to be a career 18 hr, .275 ba, 80 rbi a year guy. As for both of them being "big stars," if the historic White Sox track record means anything, the very fact that both have been so touted and hyped means they'll never amount to anything. I hope I'm wrong, but that's my feelin'....

I wonder if the injury had any effect on the negotiations -- and if it affects Maggs' overall value when this all plays out.

I find it interesting that scuttlebutt has it that the Ordonez camp and the Sox couldn't even agree on the number of years in the contract--much less even getting down to talking actual dollars.

mantis1212
06-11-2004, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Mags for Glavine and then trade for Beltran? Would that work? The Mets want Mags in the off season, acquiring him now would put them a step up on competition. Glavine is pitching his ass off this year, and would greatly help this team. Beltran would replace Mags production at the plate.

Actually, if Maggs and his agent are intent on free agency, the Mets would be in a worse position to sign him. But nevertheless, I would do that deal.
If we don't trade for Beltran, I'm still holding out hope KW will go for him when Maggs leaves...

Philo-Sox-er
06-11-2004, 10:11 AM
Here's a list of potential free agents so that you can see who we might be able to spend that money on and put this all into perspective:

Potential free agents at the end of the 2004 season
Kerry Wood, ChC, RHP, 28*
Matt Clement, ChC, RHP, 31*
Ryan Dempster, Cin., RHP, 28*
Odalis Perez, L.A., LHP, 27*
Javier Vazquez, Mon., RHP, 29*
Pedro Martinez, Bos., RHP, 34*
Derek Lowe, Bos., RHP, 31*
Curt Schilling, Ari., RHP, 38*
Matt Morris, St. L., RHP, 31*
Kris Benson, Pit., RHP, 30*
Russ Ortiz, S.F., RHP, 31*
Eric Milton, Min., LHP, 30*
Brad Radke, Min., RHP, 32*
Freddy Garcia, Sea., RHP, 29*
Scott Williamson, Cin., RHP, 29*
Bobby Howry, Bos., RHP, 32*
Jose Jimenez, Col., RHP, 32*
Braden Looper, Fla., RHP, 30*
Felix Rodriguez, S.F., RHP, 31*
Troy Percival, Ana., RHP, 36*
Robb Nen, S.F., RHP, 35*
Mariano Rivera, NYY, RHP, 35*
Jason Varitek, Bos., C, 33*
Paul Konerko, ChW, 1B, 29*
Derrek Lee, Fla., 1B, 30*
Richie Sexson, Mil., 1B, 30*
Carlos Delgado, Tor., 1B-DH, 32*
Jose Vidro, Mon., 2B, 31*
Mike Lowell, Fla., 3B, 31*
Corey Koskie, Min., 3B, 32*
Eric Chavez, Oak., 3B, 27*
Adrian Beltre, L.A., 3B, 26*
Aaron Boone, Cin., 3B, 32*
Troy Glaus, Ana., 3B, 28*
Cristian Guzman, Min., SS, 27*
Orlando Cabrera, Mon., SS, 30*
Nomar Garciaparra, Bos., SS, 32*
Trot Nixon, Bos., OF, 31*
Carlos Beltran, K.C., OF, 28*
J.D. Drew, St. L., OF, 29*
Magglio Ordonez, ChW, OF, 31*
Garret Anderson, Ana., OF, 33*
Geoff Jenkins, Mil., OF, 31*
* Opening Day age in 2005

DaveIsHere
06-11-2004, 10:11 AM
If he wants to leave he wants to leave, we will deal with it after we win the world series, right now let's just worry about us taking back first and getting back on a roll, If he is not coming back we can trade him this year and get all kinds of goodies, lets worry about the team now

Philo-Sox-er
06-11-2004, 10:12 AM
Some of those have changed, like Garrett Anderson. This is a dated list but most are accurate. Apologies for any confusion.

mantis1212
06-11-2004, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by Philo-Sox-er
Some of those have changed, like Garrett Anderson. This is a dated list but most are accurate. Apologies for any confusion.

Kerry Wood extended with his team, along with Derrek Lee, Eric Chavez. Paulie is still signed with us through 2005 I thought??

Philo-Sox-er
06-11-2004, 10:24 AM
I got this from an old Gammons article. I'm trying to see if there is a more up to date list somewhere. Can't find one as of yet.

mantis1212
06-11-2004, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by Philo-Sox-er
I got this from an old Gammons article. I'm trying to see if there is a more up to date list somewhere. Can't find one as of yet.

You still make a good point however. Maggs not under contract yet isn't the end of the world. There's lots of good players out there that will be available (esp. pitching!).
This coming off-season will be interesting for the Sox. Koch's $6.5MM comes off the books, as well as Valentin's $5MM. Carlos was extended, I think he makes the same next year ($7MM?). Frank will make $2mm more. Having potentially $26MM to play with in the off-season could be fun.

Mickster
06-11-2004, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Philo-Sox-er
Some of those have changed, like Garrett Anderson. This is a dated list but most are accurate. Apologies for any confusion.

A lot of them have changed:

K. Wood
Konerko?? (Contract ends after 2005)
Vidro
D. Lee
M. Lowell
E. Chavez
Trot Nixon
G. Anderson

jabrch
06-11-2004, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by Philo-Sox-er
Here's a list of potential free agents so that you can see who we might be able to spend that money on and put this all into perspective:

Potential free agents at the end of the 2004 season
Kerry Wood, ChC, RHP, 28*
Matt Clement, ChC, RHP, 31*
Ryan Dempster, Cin., RHP, 28*
Odalis Perez, L.A., LHP, 27*
Javier Vazquez, Mon., RHP, 29*
Pedro Martinez, Bos., RHP, 34*
Derek Lowe, Bos., RHP, 31*
Curt Schilling, Ari., RHP, 38*
Matt Morris, St. L., RHP, 31*
Kris Benson, Pit., RHP, 30*
Russ Ortiz, S.F., RHP, 31*
Eric Milton, Min., LHP, 30*
Brad Radke, Min., RHP, 32*
Freddy Garcia, Sea., RHP, 29*
Scott Williamson, Cin., RHP, 29*
Bobby Howry, Bos., RHP, 32*
Jose Jimenez, Col., RHP, 32*
Braden Looper, Fla., RHP, 30*
Felix Rodriguez, S.F., RHP, 31*
Troy Percival, Ana., RHP, 36*
Robb Nen, S.F., RHP, 35*
Mariano Rivera, NYY, RHP, 35*
Jason Varitek, Bos., C, 33*
Paul Konerko, ChW, 1B, 29*
Derrek Lee, Fla., 1B, 30*
Richie Sexson, Mil., 1B, 30*
Carlos Delgado, Tor., 1B-DH, 32*
Jose Vidro, Mon., 2B, 31*
Mike Lowell, Fla., 3B, 31*
Corey Koskie, Min., 3B, 32*
Eric Chavez, Oak., 3B, 27*
Adrian Beltre, L.A., 3B, 26*
Aaron Boone, Cin., 3B, 32*
Troy Glaus, Ana., 3B, 28*
Cristian Guzman, Min., SS, 27*
Orlando Cabrera, Mon., SS, 30*
Nomar Garciaparra, Bos., SS, 32*
Trot Nixon, Bos., OF, 31*
Carlos Beltran, K.C., OF, 28*
J.D. Drew, St. L., OF, 29*
Magglio Ordonez, ChW, OF, 31*
Garret Anderson, Ana., OF, 33*
Geoff Jenkins, Mil., OF, 31*
* Opening Day age in 2005

When updated to take out guys already signed, that is a pretty poor FA class. I'd love to overlay that with Scott Boras' client list to see who we won't be getting.

illiniwhitesox
06-11-2004, 10:31 AM
I love Mags, but the money he is asking is not worth it. Large contracts for a single player have ruined organizations. A-rod, as good as he is, crippled the Rangers.

The money can be put to better use. We have solid prospects in the outfield and Borchard needs to prove he's worth his contract. His time should be next year.

Saying no to Colon was the right decision. Saying no to Alomar was the right decision. Saying no to Mags, if he is asking for Guerrero money is the right decision.

Philo-Sox-er
06-11-2004, 10:35 AM
Yeah, I think the free agent pool is thin in terms of position players and, hence, Maggs can demand a lot of money. But there are some good pitchers available and I wouldn't mind seeing the Sox invest in pitching.

rahulsekhar
06-11-2004, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Who says they'll spend the money on players?

Quite simply: history. Someone posted a listing of Sox attendance and payroll. In pretty much every season, when attendance increased, the following year's payroll did as well. All of that supports the contention on management that while they won't run in the red temporarily, they will put any increaased revenues into the on-field product.

Remember - the WFT wasn't just about cutting salaries, it was about changing the makeup of an unpopular team and getting some value for FAs that weren't going to be resigned.

So it does seem likely that we'll see an increased payroll next year or at least the same payroll. The only problem is - who's out there to sign? There's a bunch of pitchers, but I don't know that there are any stars availble outside of Beltran (and Maggs).

Finally - anyone think that there's a decent chance Maggs just doesn't get the contract he wants? Is someone really going to pay him MORE than Vlad money in this environment? I dont' knwo the rules regarding signing & resigning of FAs, but IMO it's a likely scenario that Maggs goes out and the only offers he gets are not significantly greater than what the Sox are willing to offer. In that case - maybe he comes back to a town that likes him, a team and org that he knows, a coaching staff that he's happy with, and a team that can contend.

rahulsekhar
06-11-2004, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
When updated to take out guys already signed, that is a pretty poor FA class. I'd love to overlay that with Scott Boras' client list to see who we won't be getting.

Anyone know status on these guys: Sexson, Schilling, Vazquez, Percival, Lowell? I think all but Percival have re-upped.

Other than the ones above, the only guys I'd be excited about are Pedro & Delgado (but where do we play him). Glaus is intriguing, but the injury's a concern. Pre-injury, he was mashing the ball - something he attributed to offseason LASIK surgery. (And I can vouch for that as well as being AWESOME.)

thepaulbowski
06-11-2004, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
Anyone know status on these guys: Sexson, Schilling, Vazquez, Percival, Lowell? I think all but Percival have re-upped.

Other than the ones above, the only guys I'd be excited about are Pedro & Delgado (but where do we play him). Glaus is intriguing, but the injury's a concern. Pre-injury, he was mashing the ball - something he attributed to offseason LASIK surgery. (And I can vouch for that as well as being AWESOME.)

I don't think Sexson has signed yet. I thought they were talking about what Arizona would with him after the season, considering all the talent they gave to Milwaukee for him.

jshanahanjr
06-11-2004, 10:51 AM
Maybe Maggs will sign with the Cubs and stick it to the Sox for a decade? I think we know what Sosa has done. Like him or not, he has over 500 bombs. I would be sick to my stomach since my dogs name is Magglio.

soxtalker
06-11-2004, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar

Finally - anyone think that there's a decent chance Maggs just doesn't get the contract he wants? Is someone really going to pay him MORE than Vlad money in this environment? I dont' knwo the rules regarding signing & resigning of FAs, but IMO it's a likely scenario that Maggs goes out and the only offers he gets are not significantly greater than what the Sox are willing to offer. In that case - maybe he comes back to a town that likes him, a team and org that he knows, a coaching staff that he's happy with, and a team that can contend.

I think that a lot depends on how Maggs performs the rest of the season. Also, it strikes me that the injury -- which I believe is Maggs first in his career -- could reduce the amount he is able to get. (In fact, I wonder if the injury had any impact on what the Sox were willing to offer.)

rahulsekhar
06-11-2004, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
I don't think Sexson has signed yet. I thought they were talking about what Arizona would with him after the season, considering all the talent they gave to Milwaukee for him.

OK - I know he plays the same position as Koney, but I'd sign him in heartbeat and trade Paul for whatever we can get (and since he's hitting well, that should be something at least decent).

Irishsox1
06-11-2004, 11:18 AM
If the Sox are in a playoff run, don't trade Maggs, but if Minnesota runs away with the division, then trade him. There is no sense in losing Maggs to another team, and the only thing the Sox get in return is another draft pick. Seattle traded away Randy Johnson and got Freddy Garcia, Carlos Guillen and John Halama. Seattle also traded away Ken Griffey Jr and got Mike Cameron and Brett Tomko. These things have a way of taking care of themselves. The White Sox will still play baseball after Maggio Ordonez leaves, as with when all the current players on the team eventually leave.

Philo-Sox-er
06-11-2004, 11:26 AM
Hopefully this is totally unrelated! You guys talking about Maggs signing with the Flubs has me very scared! Maybe Sosa has been reading WSI and is worried about losing his job...

Sammy Sosa wants his contract extended past 2005.
The slugger, who starts a three-day rehab assignment on Sunday, was quoted saying, "They need me, no question about it. You don't know what you got until you lose it. When you lose it, that's tough. I know they need me around." Jun. 11 - 10:37 am et
Source: Chicago Sun-Times

Paulwny
06-11-2004, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Philo-Sox-er
Yeah, I think the free agent pool is thin in terms of position players and, hence, Maggs can demand a lot of money. But there are some good pitchers available and I wouldn't mind seeing the Sox invest in pitching.

Agree, there's good pitching available, but good/great pitchers will all be seeking long term contracts. Long term contracts for pitchers is not in JR's vocabulary.

CubKilla
06-11-2004, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by mmmmmbeeer
Let him walk. He's not worth the money he's seeking, not even close. We've got a ton of money coming off the books this offseason, we'll be able to fill any hole that Maggs leaves behind.

After all, the Sox have been playing splendid baseball this season since he went on the DL :angry:

CubKilla
06-11-2004, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
Other than the ones above, the only guys I'd be excited about are Pedro

JR doesn't sign pitchers to long term contracts which Pedro will command. You can flush any fleeting notion of Pedro changing Sox as long as JR owns the team.

CubKilla
06-11-2004, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Mickster
A lot of them have changed:

K. Wood


I'm pretty sure Kid BB reupped before this seasons start.

jabrch
06-11-2004, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
After all, the Sox have been playing splendid baseball this season since he went on the DL :angry:

The problem hasn't been the offense - has it? (73 runs in 13games = over 5.5 rpg.) The problem hasn't been Gload and Rowand - has it? I'd miss Magglio - don't get me wrong - but I'd get over it. Overpaying for him would be dumber than letting him walk. If the Yankees/Mets etc. want to overpay - that's their choice - we don't have a 200,000,000 budget to work with.

SEALgep
06-11-2004, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
After all, the Sox have been playing splendid baseball this season since he went on the DL :angry: Ya the problem was the pitching when we lost on the West Coast, which actually argues IMO that the money would be better spent on pitching.

SEALgep
06-11-2004, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
JR doesn't sign pitchers to long term contracts which Pedro will command. You can flush any fleeting notion of Pedro changing Sox as long as JR owns the team. The Sox will sign pitchers to three year deals, and I'd imagine that would suit many of the FA pitchers.

CubKilla
06-11-2004, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Ya the problem was the pitching when we lost on the West Coast, which actually argues IMO that the money would be better spent on pitching.

Actually..... A pitcher.

CWSGuy406
06-11-2004, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Mags for Glavine and then trade for Beltran? Would that work? The Mets want Mags in the off season, acquiring him now would put them a step up on competition. Glavine is pitching his ass off this year, and would greatly help this team. Beltran would replace Mags production at the plate.

Perfectly fine with me. However - what, realistically, do we give up for Beltran? I was thinking of that myself, actually. If Kenny could do it without totally destroying the farm, do it.

Paulwny
06-11-2004, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
The Sox will sign pitchers to three year deals, and I'd imagine that would suit many of the FA pitchers.

Yep, we'll sign marginal pitchers while the #1's will sign with teams offering > 3yrs.

SEALgep
06-11-2004, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
Actually..... A pitcher. Point still stands. :D:

SEALgep
06-11-2004, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Yep, we'll sign marginal pitchers while the #1's will sign with teams offering > 3yrs. Assumption. Extending pitchers beyond three years is just not smart business. There are exceptions, but very few. If other teams like the Angels feel it's okay to take a chance and pay for four years, that's their call. However, many teams thought they not only overpayed, but made a booboo by having him for four years. It's not like the Sox are alone in this thinking.

wilburwood
06-11-2004, 12:01 PM
As much as I like Maggs and think of him as our own, I think he is asking too much. For my money and maybe I'm just an old timer but I beleive in the old adage of strength up the middle. Corner outfielders are pretty much a dime a dozen. Sure we will lose some production, but how much do you really want to spend on another 30 rbi per year, especially if you can spend it on a stud in center or short and increase productivity and defense there. Now we just need to convince JR to spend it.

Paulwny
06-11-2004, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Assumption. Extending pitchers beyond three years is just not smart business. There are exceptions, but very few. If other teams like the Angels feel it's okay to take a chance and pay for four years, that's their call. However, many teams thought they not only overpayed, but made a booboo by having him for four years. It's not like the Sox are alone in this thinking.

I never said it was smart business.
This team will NEVER sign a stud fa pitcher. Any team competing against the sox will add another year to the contract knowing JR will back out.
Even if this pitcher is only effective for 3 of the 4 yrs , but takes his team to the play-offs/ws the 4th year was well worth the risk.

CanOfCorn
06-11-2004, 12:16 PM
I think Maggs is asking too much money, but what if the Sox make a deep playoff run? Increased merchandise sales, increased interest and attendance?

Also, what if this injury hampers his performance? That'll decrease his value, right?

The first scenario might put some pressure on JR to sign, or it might give Magglio perspective on staying with a winner. The second scenario would give ownership some leverage.

I wouldn't go into panic mode yet.

LASOXFAN
06-11-2004, 12:22 PM
The sox are 6-6 since Mags went down. If you like .500 ball, then I guess you're right, we don't need him.

joecrede
06-11-2004, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
So it does seem likely that we'll see an increased payroll next year or at least the same payroll. The only problem is - who's out there to sign? There's a bunch of pitchers, but I don't know that there are any stars availble outside of Beltran (and Maggs).

A list of potential free agents for 2006 would come in handy too. With possibly $20-$26M available to spend the Sox will be able to take on contracts via trade too.

CWSGuy406
06-11-2004, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
The sox are 6-6 since Mags went down. If you like .500 ball, then I guess you're right, we don't need him.

Two blown saves by a closer and poor pitching (Wednesday) wouldn't have anything to do with that, now would it? I mean, ten runs, that's definitely not enough...

SEALgep
06-11-2004, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
The sox are 6-6 since Mags went down. If you like .500 ball, then I guess you're right, we don't need him. We'd be 8-4 if it weren't for Koch. Maggs can't pitch can he?

rahulsekhar
06-11-2004, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Yep, we'll sign marginal pitchers while the #1's will sign with teams offering > 3yrs.

If you mean marginal pitchers like Loaiza, Schoenweis, Gordon, Takatsu, and going back in time - Eldred, that's OK by me.

jabrch
06-11-2004, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
The sox are 6-6 since Mags went down. If you like .500 ball, then I guess you're right, we don't need him.

A) If you watched those games - you'd know that the problem wasnt' offense or RF in general

B) I don't think anybody said we don't need him - only that we shouldn't overpay him. There is a significant difference.

jabrch
06-11-2004, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Yep, we'll sign marginal pitchers while the #1's will sign with teams offering > 3yrs.

It would have been brilliant for KW/JR to try and outbid Moreno on Colon - I mean - look where we might be with him instead of either Carlos or Magglio?

Paulwny
06-11-2004, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
It would have been brilliant for KW/JR to try and outbid Moreno on Colon - I mean - look where we might be with him instead of either Carlos or Magglio?

Granted, it's a risk.
This discussion is about $$$ freed up for next year and signing some sp's. We'll never sign a stud fa sp unless JR changes his tune.

SEALgep
06-11-2004, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Granted, it's a risk.
This discussion is about $$$ freed up for next year and signing some sp's. We'll never sign a stud fa sp unless JR changes his tune. I have a feeling we'll sign Garcia. He's considered a top notch SP. Hopefully we can get another too. We'll have to see how it plays out, but I have confidence the money will be utilized effectively.

jabrch
06-11-2004, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Granted, it's a risk.
This discussion is about $$$ freed up for next year and signing some sp's. We'll never sign a stud fa sp unless JR changes his tune.

Then the question stands - is it worth it to sign a stud FA SP, or do you have to draft and develop those? If the cost of signing one is a requisite 5 year deal at big money with no ability to insure the back end, or to put in contract language like JRs DSC, then, frankly, I don't want to do it. This team, on a 75mm budget, can't afford to risk it on SPs. Look at the pitchers we were chasing in the offseason. Colon and Ponson look to be disasters that would strap a team with a budget for a long time. Anaheim and Baltimore can move on and live with it - but I don't want to see us take that risk.

South Side
06-11-2004, 12:52 PM
I think everyone needs to bombard the Sox organization with e-mails, letters and show some loyalty to Magglio. Maggs is the best player we have. If this is how the organization plans on handling home grown players then shame on them. Greedy or not he is Magglio and I can't imagine him playing in another uniform. How sad...

SEALgep
06-11-2004, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by South Side
I think everyone needs to bombard the Sox organization with e-mails, letters and show some loyalty to Magglio. Maggs is the best player we have. If this is how the organization plans on handling home grown players then shame on them. Greedy or not he is Magglio and I can't imagine him playing in another uniform. How sad... It's sad that Maggs doesn't feel the same as you. I won't write to them to say that we need to sign him at all cost.

samram
06-11-2004, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
It's sad that Maggs doesn't feel the same as you. I won't write to them to say that we need to sign him at all cost.

My feeling exactly. Loyalty is a two-way street. He made Vlad money last year and didn't drive in 100 or hit 30 HRs. I would hope they can work something out, but I don't think it's good to have one guy be 20% of the payroll.

duke of dorwood
06-11-2004, 01:02 PM
Freed up Money goes to

:reinsy

Kids Inheritance

guillen4life13
06-11-2004, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
The sox are 6-6 since Mags went down. If you like .500 ball, then I guess you're right, we don't need him.

The Sox in all reality, should be 8-4 if it weren't for Koch. Ross Gload and Aaron Rowand instead of Maggs has not been the cause of the .500 record they've had for the games Maggs has been down.

Paulwny
06-11-2004, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Then the question stands - is it worth it to sign a stud FA SP, or do you have to draft and develop those? If the cost of signing one is a requisite 5 year deal at big money with no ability to insure the back end, or to put in contract language like JRs DSC, then, frankly, I don't want to do it. This team, on a 75mm budget, can't afford to risk it on SPs. Look at the pitchers we were chasing in the offseason. Colon and Ponson look to be disasters that would strap a team with a budget for a long time. Anaheim and Baltimore can move on and live with it - but I don't want to see us take that risk.

Then we'll continue to try and develop sp's wo'll probably leave as fa's as soon as they can for $$$ and yrs. We'll also continue to sign marginal or previously injured fa's hoping to catch lightening in a bottle.

rahulsekhar
06-11-2004, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by South Side
I think everyone needs to bombard the Sox organization with e-mails, letters and show some loyalty to Magglio. Maggs is the best player we have. If this is how the organization plans on handling home grown players then shame on them. Greedy or not he is Magglio and I can't imagine him playing in another uniform. How sad...

Great idea!!! They should resign Magglio at whatever terms he wants plus 10% - after all, it's not our money, right?

Of course, then the corresponding changes to the rest of the team (bye bye Loaiza, Shoney - hello Felix Diaz & Arnie Munoz) won't be so bad - after all, we'll have MAGGS!!!!

Or maybe we should offer the same type of deal to E-Lo & Shoney.....I mean what's to stop us from a Yankee-sized payroll - except not having Yankee sized revenues that is....

rahulsekhar
06-11-2004, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Then we'll continue to try and develop sp's wo'll probably leave as fa's as soon as they can for $$$ and yrs. We'll also continue to sign marginal or previously injured fa's hoping to catch lightening in a bottle.

I'd say we don't "hope", we've got a pretty good system down for catching lightning. Eldred, E-Lo, Gordon, Shoney - the only real flop IIRC was Person, and if he doesn't hurt his achilles, who's to say he's not 3-2 as our 5th starter? Given KW & Coop's record on this topic, I can't believe they're actually being bashed for it!

Paulwny
06-11-2004, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
I'd say we don't "hope", we've got a pretty good system down for catching lightning. Eldred, E-Lo, Gordon, Shoney - the only real flop IIRC was Person, and if he doesn't hurt his achilles, who's to say he's not 3-2 as our 5th starter? Given KW & Coop's record on this topic, I can't believe they're actually being bashed for it!

Where did I bash them ? I'm complaining about JR's attitude on long term contracts.
When you sign these types of players, you are hoping because you don't know how they'll pitch.
As soon as Gordon showed he could still deliver he was gone.

depy48
06-11-2004, 01:30 PM
simply maggs is being greedy, this is a heartbreaker

Frankfan4life
06-11-2004, 01:39 PM
I'm a long-time, and long-suffering, White Sox fan who doesn't have as much statistical knowledge as many of you on this board. I generally go with my emotions on most subjects and right now I'm emotionally attached to having Maggs remain a White Sox.

I like the idea of having a "superstar" on our team. I think it attracts and keeps fans when you have a player on your team who is nationally known and admired. The only other player on the Sox who fits that description is Big Frank and he is 36 years old. Maggs is a proven performer and is feared by most pitchers. That kind of respect gives your team an advantage.

Fans will come out to see Maggs play and the media will cover him as a marquee player. A successful team has to have a balance of good hitting and good pitching. I know the Sox desperately need a fifth starter and a reliable closer but most people on this board keep saying they want the Sox to stop acting like a small market team. So why support getting a fifth starter and a closer at the expense of our best player, we should be trying to have all three.

If Maggs leaves and the Sox go downhill productively (corspeball), Iíll bet everyone on this board will soon start screaming for a Maggs-type player at any cost.

Lip Man 1
06-11-2004, 01:49 PM
Hal:

Once again your comments impart a sense of historical wisdom that many fans, usually young, statistically driven and financially orientated just can't seem to grasp.

The only statistics that matters are these, 45 years since the last World Series appearance, a dwindling fan base, second class status in their own city and a publicy financed stadium with clauses in the deal that ensure financial success with the state obligated to buy tickets if attendence drops below a certain level.

But of course the only thing ownership is obligated to doing, in their minds, even though they 'own' a public trust, is to make a profit.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at them.

Lip

rahulsekhar
06-11-2004, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Hal:

Once again your comments impart a sense of historical wisdom that many fans, usually young, statistically driven and financially orientated just can't seem to grasp.

The only statistics that matters are these, 45 years since the last World Series appearance, a dwindling fan base, second class status in their own city and a publicy financed stadium with clauses in the deal that ensure financial success with the state obligated to buy tickets if attendence drops below a certain level.

But of course the only thing ownership is obligated to doing, in their minds, even though they 'own' a public trust, is to make a profit.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at them.

Lip

Lip - just because something is partially subsizided with public funds and/or has been around for a long time doesn't make it beholden to some sort of obligation to the public. There are plenty of businesses that get public money in some form or another, and many of those have been part of the greater Chicago community for a while. But they do not have any responsibility to do anything other than operate their business as they see fit. In fact, sometimes businesses like that close and put people out of work - and even that's not against their "obligation" to the public.

Lip Man 1
06-11-2004, 02:29 PM
Rahuel: The new Comiskey Park was built completely with tax money. Current ownership did not spend one dime of their own finances (unlike the stadiums in San Francisco and Miami for example...)

And they also haven't spent one dime of their own finances to repair the stadium that they screwed up in the first place.

With respect that a big difference from being 'partially subsidezed' isn't it?

The Chicago White Sox are different in a fundamental business sense from the locally owned hardware store or the local K-Mart. They are different in their revenues, in the organization's connection with professional baseball, in the division of money from revenue sharing and national media contracts, in the coverage of the business by the media and in the fan's loyalty.

They are not governed by the same rules of business and they shouldn't be.

Therefore the obligations of said ownership are held to a different standard then the owners of the hardware store or the local K-Mart. I think it's foolish to try to compare the two and say the same business standards apply.

Lip

pudge
06-11-2004, 02:36 PM
Boy, those Texas Rangers sure are struggling without A-Rod!

My point being, if you're not going to be the Yankees and stack the entire club, there's no point in paying one guy $15 million a season. Might as well spread it out and have a good TEAM.

pinwheels3530
06-11-2004, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by samram
My feeling exactly. Loyalty is a two-way street. He made Vlad money last year and didn't drive in 100 or hit 30 HRs. I would hope they can work something out, but I don't think it's good to have one guy be 20% of the payroll.

Oh my god, you sound like Charles Comiskey in Eight Men Out telling Ciccotte "you didn't win the 30 games you only got 29 you get the 10,000 bonus if you win 30" he missed 30/100 by ONE freak-in home run & ONE freak-in RBI. Everybody is ready to dismiss Maggs, this is ridiculous.

It's funny how everyone here is dividing up money, already looking at FA, assuming payroll numbers, suggesting Maggs is not a valuable player to this teams offense, saying he's not marketable (that's ridiculous), calling him greedy. We don't even know the details of the negotiations, please!!!!! Once again SOX fans here think they know how to run a organization BUT THEY DON'T....if KW would have listened to some posters here we wouldn't have Willie, Olivo, Shoey, Uribe, Shingo, let go the greatest hitter in our history No. 35, re-sign Colon, kept Graffinino, and my god the 80yr old Roberto Alomor who's on the DL in Arizona etc.... I AM GLAD HE DOESN'T LISTEN TO SOME POSTERS HERE!!! :angry:

Dadawg_77
06-11-2004, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Boy, those Texas Rangers sure are struggling without A-Rod!

My point being, if you're not going to be the Yankees and stack the entire club, there's no point in paying one guy $15 million a season. Might as well spread it out and have a good TEAM.

If the Sox had an up and coming club and traded for Soriano type player, the Sox would be sitting pretty. The Rangers aren't better becuase A Rod left, they are better because their doormat pitchers aren't doormats so far this year.

maurice
06-11-2004, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by pinwheels3530
if KW would have listened to some posters here we wouldn't have Willie, Olivo, Shoey, Uribe, Shingo, let go the greatest hitter in our history No. 35, re-sign Colon, kept Graffinino, and my god the 80yr old Roberto Alomor who's on the DL in Arizona etc.... I AM GLAD HE DOESN'T LISTEN TO SOME POSTERS HERE!!! :angry:

Actually, KW tried but failed to "let go the greatest hitter in our history No. 35, re-sign Colon, [and] the 80yr old Roberto Alomor." He may or may not have tried to re-sign Graffy, but that's fairly neutral either way.

I agree with your other point that nobody should call Maggs greedy unless they are privy to the details of the negotiations.

samram
06-11-2004, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Boy, those Texas Rangers sure are struggling without A-Rod!

My point being, if you're not going to be the Yankees and stack the entire club, there's no point in paying one guy $15 million a season. Might as well spread it out and have a good TEAM.

Good point. Furthermore, Maggs is only assuming he is going to be heavily sought after- I-Rod made the same mistake, and he was coming off a WS victory. Also, I don't see why JR should be the one making all the concessions to Maggs.

Dadawg_77
06-11-2004, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by pinwheels3530
Oh my god, you sound like Charles Comiskey in Eight Men Out telling Ciccotte "you didn't win the 30 games you only got 29 you get the 10,000 bonus if you win 30" he missed 30/100 by ONE freak-in home run & ONE freak-in RBI. Everybody is ready to dismiss Maggs, this is ridiculous.

It's funny how everyone here is dividing up money, already looking at FA, assuming payroll numbers, suggesting Maggs is not a valuable player to this teams offense, saying he's not marketable (that's ridiculous), calling him greedy. We don't even know the details of the negotiations, please!!!!! Once again SOX fans here think they know how to run a organization BUT THEY DON'T....if KW would have listened to some posters here we wouldn't have Willie, Olivo, Shoey, Uribe, Shingo, let go the greatest hitter in our history No. 35, re-sign Colon, kept Graffinino, and my god the 80yr old Roberto Alomor who's on the DL in Arizona etc.... I AM GLAD HE DOESN'T LISTEN TO SOME POSTERS HERE!!! :angry:

Mags is valuable, but can you replace or exceed that value at a cheaper or the same cost? That is the question for the Sox need to answer now. Just like females (or males) there are always other fish in the sea.

jabrch
06-11-2004, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
If the Sox had an up and coming club and traded for Soriano type player, the Sox would be sitting pretty. The Rangers aren't better becuase A Rod left, they are better because their doormat pitchers aren't doormats so far this year.

But Soriano doesn't walk enough?

Philo-Sox-er
06-11-2004, 02:51 PM
Oh my god, you sound like Charles Comiskey in Eight Men Out telling Ciccotte "you didn't win the 30 games you only got 29 you get the 10,000 bonus if you win 30" he missed 30/100 by ONE freak-in home run & ONE freak-in RBI. Everybody is ready to dismiss Maggs, this is ridiculous.

It's funny how everyone here is dividing up money, already looking at FA, assuming payroll numbers, suggesting Maggs is not a valuable player to this teams offense, saying he's not marketable (that's ridiculous), calling him greedy. We don't even know the details of the negotiations, please!!!!! Once again SOX fans here think they know how to run a organization BUT THEY DON'T....if KW would have listened to some posters here we wouldn't have Willie, Olivo, Shoey, Uribe, Shingo, let go the greatest hitter in our history No. 35, re-sign Colon, kept Graffinino, and my god the 80yr old Roberto Alomor who's on the DL in Arizona etc.... I AM GLAD HE DOESN'T LISTEN TO SOME POSTERS HERE!!!

I think you missed the tone of the discussion here. Mostly I see I lot of distraught Magglio fans who wish he would resign, but for reasonable money. We know the Sox have a budget limit and giving all of our money to one player is not wise, no matter who it is. Looking at FA was to gain perspective on what we might consider if Maggs leaves. That doesn't mean we want him to leave; we are bracing ourselves for the worse. Of course, all of these threads are individuals' perspectives without much insider knowledge like KW has. Being a fan of a team/sport, however, is fun because we all like to play GM in our own heads--that is why fantasy sports are so popular. Your point is well taken, but I think what has been said here has been said out of concern and mostly based off of the emotions of hearing that one of our best players may not be here after this season.

jabrch
06-11-2004, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by pinwheels3530
Oh my god, you sound like Charles Comiskey in Eight Men Out telling Ciccotte "you didn't win the 30 games you only got 29 you get the 10,000 bonus if you win 30" he missed 30/100 by ONE freak-in home run & ONE freak-in RBI. Everybody is ready to dismiss Maggs, this is ridiculous.

It's funny how everyone here is dividing up money, already looking at FA, assuming payroll numbers, suggesting Maggs is not a valuable player to this teams offense, saying he's not marketable (that's ridiculous), calling him greedy. We don't even know the details of the negotiations, please!!!!! Once again SOX fans here think they know how to run a organization BUT THEY DON'T....if KW would have listened to some posters here we wouldn't have Willie, Olivo, Shoey, Uribe, Shingo, let go the greatest hitter in our history No. 35, re-sign Colon, kept Graffinino, and my god the 80yr old Roberto Alomor who's on the DL in Arizona etc.... I AM GLAD HE DOESN'T LISTEN TO SOME POSTERS HERE!!! :angry:

Nobody suggested he isn't valuable.

Nobody said he isn't marketable.

He is greedy - but that's not a problem for most of us. Look at the money he has already turned down - wny's that? Cuz he wants more. Rightfully or wrongfully so - that's greed.

Dadawg_77
06-11-2004, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
But Soriano doesn't walk enough?


I said before him and Vlad are exceptions to the rule. It happens just not very often.

samram
06-11-2004, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by pinwheels3530
Oh my god, you sound like Charles Comiskey in Eight Men Out telling Ciccotte "you didn't win the 30 games you only got 29 you get the 10,000 bonus if you win 30" he missed 30/100 by ONE freak-in home run & ONE freak-in RBI. Everybody is ready to dismiss Maggs, this is ridiculous.

It's funny how everyone here is dividing up money, already looking at FA, assuming payroll numbers, suggesting Maggs is not a valuable player to this teams offense, saying he's not marketable (that's ridiculous), calling him greedy. We don't even know the details of the negotiations, please!!!!! Once again SOX fans here think they know how to run a organization BUT THEY DON'T....if KW would have listened to some posters here we wouldn't have Willie, Olivo, Shoey, Uribe, Shingo, let go the greatest hitter in our history No. 35, re-sign Colon, kept Graffinino, and my god the 80yr old Roberto Alomor who's on the DL in Arizona etc.... I AM GLAD HE DOESN'T LISTEN TO SOME POSTERS HERE!!! :angry:

I'm not "dismissing" Maggs. I'm just saying you can't just bend over and allow the players to have whatever they want. You're right, I don't know what actually happened in negotiations, and I never said Maggs is greedy. My point was that so many around here think whatever the player demands should be given by management without a second thought. Sorry, but like Dawg said, he can be replaced. You don't spend 20% of the payroll on one guy. I wish the payroll was higher and $14m wasn't 20% of it, but I can't control it.

JasonC23
06-11-2004, 02:59 PM
Isn't Maggs making $14 million this year? And don't the White Sox still have 24 other guys on the roster? And isn't attendance up 26%? And aren't a few big contracts coming off the books at the end of the year?

I'm confused as to how Maggs, by asking for 5/$70, or the same thing he's being paid right now, is being greedy. Or why the Sox, who right now can afford to pay 24 other Major Leaguers and have an attendance that has risen pretty substantially, can't afford exactly what they're paying Maggs right now.

pinwheels3530
06-11-2004, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by Frankfan4life
I'm a long-time, and long-suffering, White Sox fan who doesn't have as much statistical knowledge as many of you on this board. I generally go with my emotions on most subjects and right now I'm emotionally attached to having Maggs remain a White Sox.

I like the idea of having a "superstar" on our team. I think it attracts and keeps fans when you have a player on your team who is nationally known and admired. The only other player on the Sox who fits that description is Big Frank and he is 36 years old. Maggs is a proven performer and is feared by most pitchers. That kind of respect gives your team an advantage.

Fans will come out to see Maggs play and the media will cover him as a marquee player. A successful team has to have a balance of good hitting and good pitching. I know the Sox desperately need a fifth starter and a reliable closer but most people on this board keep saying they want the Sox to stop acting like a small market team. So why support getting a fifth starter and a closer at the expense of our best player, we should be trying to have all three.

If Maggs leaves and the Sox go downhill productively (corspeball), Iíll bet everyone on this board will soon start screaming for a Maggs-type player at any cost.

Your right raise the freak-in payroll get a closer a stud starter and KEEP YOUR MOST POPULAR PLAYER we are the Chicago White Sox not the Kane County Cougars. Nobody is saying to have a Yankee size payroll, but JR needs to stop being so cheap.....
there is a difference in being smart and being cheap right now he's being cheap I can post that cause he has a history to go on.

If sox fans want to call Magglio greedy without knowing details of the negotiations then SOME SOX FANS are really cheap cause they never go to the games even when the team is in FIRST PLACE :angry:

rahulsekhar
06-11-2004, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Rahuel: The new Comiskey Park was built completely with tax money. Current ownership did not spend one dime of their own finances (unlike the stadiums in San Francisco and Miami for example...)

And they also haven't spent one dime of their own finances to repair the stadium that they screwed up in the first place.

With respect that a big difference from being 'partially subsidezed' isn't it?

Similar "public money" arguments can be made based on the deal that Boeing signed recently to move their HQ to Chicago. Or for that matter - for almost any major manufacturing facility. These deals usually get funded through significant enough tax breaks, cheap land, etc.

Also - if you don't think the Sox raised the USCF money to renovate the stadium, I don't know who you think did it. They raised that money specifically to renovate, and it didn't cost the public anything. It's basically an advertising deal (Sox provide advertising, USCF pays). And you make a mis-decision seem like they speicifcally decided "we're going to build a bad stadium". Yes, they were offered Camden's design, and they didn't think it was going to be great. They were wrong, and are now refitting the park with money that they have raised.

Originally posted by Lip Man 1
The Chicago White Sox are different in a fundamental business sense from the locally owned hardware store or the local K-Mart. They are different in their revenues, in the organization's connection with professional baseball, in the division of money from revenue sharing and national media contracts, in the coverage of the business by the media and in the fan's loyalty.

Lip

IMO it's foolish to say that because they get covered by the media and have long-time, loyal customers they somehow owe something to a "public trust". I may visit my local barber for 50 years, but he doesn't owe me squat except a haircut when I pay him for it. If he wants to move or run his business in whatever way he wants - that's his right. And if I dont' like it, I can go elsewhere. If I move into public housing and have people follow me around and report on my moves, I don't owe them squat - not even if they do it for the next 50 years (assuming I live that long). Even thought hey may be "loyal" and I have "relationship with the media"

By "division of revenues", I assume you mean revenue sharing. So that means that because the Sox share in $$$ generated by other teams that the Sox somehow have a public trust to people in Chicago? I have to respectfully disagree.

The contract between the Sox and the fans is this: You pay us money and we'll play baseball. If you don't like the baseball, don't pay.

If you don't like it enough, then tell your representatives that you dont' want your tax dollars spent on the team if/when the decision comes up again. When they were spent, the contract was "build us a stadium and we'll stay in Chicago and play baseball". They have fulfilled that bargain.

rahulsekhar
06-11-2004, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by pinwheels3530
Your right raise the freak-in payroll get a closer a stud starter and KEEP YOUR MOST POPULAR PLAYER we are the Chicago White Sox not the Kane County Cougars. Nobody is saying to have a Yankee size payroll, but JR needs to stop being so cheap.....
there is a difference in being smart and being cheap right now he's being cheap I can post that cause he has a history to go on.

If sox fans want to call Magglio greedy without knowing details of the negotiations then SOME SOX FANS are really cheap cause they never go to the games even when the team is in FIRST PLACE :angry:

Maggs is asking for more money than better players have gotten. I fail to see how pointing that out and thinking that they mght be better off paying that kind of money to a better player than him (or signing a similar player and another one) somehow makes the Sox cheap.

Example: The Sox let Maggs go, sign Carlos Delgado, and trade Konerko for a closer-in-waiting (Mota?). I'd argue that Delgado+Reed/Borchard+closer is better for this team than Maggs+Konerko.

petekat
06-11-2004, 03:52 PM
great point about fans needing to get out to the park more, but we are much closer to the Kane County cougars than the Yanks. 1st place- and we can barely draw 20K, 33K on a half price night, 17 the next- the 4th lowest attendance in the AL!!! Unless we draw consistently, we can expect management to continue to cut corners.

What seems the problem, is it that we have a lower fan base than other teams? I went to about 20-25 games last yr, and already have about 15 counting my season package split. Are other fans doing their part to support the team?




Originally posted by pinwheels3530
Your right raise the freak-in payroll get a closer a stud starter and KEEP YOUR MOST POPULAR PLAYER we are the Chicago White Sox not the Kane County Cougars. Nobody is saying to have a Yankee size payroll, but JR needs to stop being so cheap.....
there is a difference in being smart and being cheap right now he's being cheap I can post that cause he has a history to go on.

If sox fans want to call Magglio greedy without knowing details of the negotiations then SOME SOX FANS are really cheap cause they never go to the games even when the team is in FIRST PLACE :angry:

jabrch
06-11-2004, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by JasonC23
Isn't Maggs making $14 million this year? And don't the White Sox still have 24 other guys on the roster? And isn't attendance up 26%? And aren't a few big contracts coming off the books at the end of the year?

I'm confused as to how Maggs, by asking for 5/$70, or the same thing he's being paid right now, is being greedy. Or why the Sox, who right now can afford to pay 24 other Major Leaguers and have an attendance that has risen pretty substantially, can't afford exactly what they're paying Maggs right now.

his contract before - when salaries were higher across the board, is not relevant. What is relevant is the market. Look at the Garrett Anderson signing. That sets the market for Magglio.

JasonC23
06-11-2004, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
his contract before - when salaries were higher across the board, is not relevant. What is relevant is the market. Look at the Garrett Anderson signing. That sets the market for Magglio.

Except that Magglio is both younger and better than Garret Anderson. So, if Anderson sets the market and gets $12 million, and Maggs is younger and better, is $14 so outrageous?

TommyJohn
06-11-2004, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
And once again our fabulous ownerships cuts off its nose to spite its face. I almost hope he signs with the Twins so he can stick it to them 19 times a year.

Liptak, did you hijack Torn's username?

CWSGuy406
06-11-2004, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by JasonC23
Except that Magglio is both younger and better than Garret Anderson. So, if Anderson sets the market and gets $12 million, and Maggs is younger and better, is $14 so outrageous?

Is he better? Other than not walking as much, Anderson puts up similar, if not better numbers than Mags.

Bobby Abreu, IMO, would be a better example. It was odd to find that he puts up similar numbers to Maggs and makes only 10 million...

IMO 12.5 million, 13 Million tops is market value. Yankee value might be higher, but for our team in our situation, 12.5 million is right for him.

TommyJohn
06-11-2004, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
I just hope that Magglio does NOT sign with the Cubbies.




I get the feeling that the Cubs might persue him. Moist-hands
Alou is in the last year of his contract, and he isn't getting any
younger. The Cubs would certainly realize the PR value of
swiping a Sox star from under their noses. I don't think Reinsdorf
would do a thing to stop it, either.

P.S. Look for several Mariotti articles to "plant the seed" that
the Northsiders "need" Ordonez, or suggest that they might
persue him.

JasonC23
06-11-2004, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by CWSGuy406
Is he better? Other than not walking as much, Anderson puts up similar, if not better numbers than Mags.

Yes, he's better. First off, he's a year and a half younger, which makes a big difference when talking number of years for a contract.

Second, career numbers (AVG/OBP/SLG) pre-2004:

Anderson: .299/.328/.479
Ordonez: .307/.365/.527

BIG edge for Maggs.

Of course, Anderson's best 2 years of his career, by far, were the past 2 years, 2002 and 2003. So surely he's now as good or better than Maggs?

Nope.

Anderson: 2002, .306/.332/.539
2003, .315/.345/.541

Ordonez: 2002, .320/.381/.597
2003, .317/.380/.546

Maggs has the better BA, WAY better OBP, and better SLG both years. Saying "other than not walking as much" makes it sound like it's no big deal, but Maggs' OBP advantage is HUGE when comparing the two.

Don't buy into the Peter Gammons "Garret Anderson is an MVP-type player" hype. Anderson is a fine player, but Maggs is demonstrably better.

TaylorStSox
06-11-2004, 04:50 PM
First of all....

The idea that we owe Maggs anything is ridiculous. A couple people have said that they hope he goes to the Cubs (how this is "sticking it to us" I don't know) and the Twins so he can get back at us. They need to use some common sense. We're OVERPAYING him right now. He's not worth $14 million.

Secondly, whoever said that Maggs is better than Garrett Anderson needs to reevaluate things.

The Abreu comparison is legit. Maggs is a slightly, and I mean slightly, better hitter. Abreu is a much better fielder. He also runs the bases better. They're the same age and have close to equal overall ability.


BTW, we already have a superstar on this team. He wears number 35. He's the best hitter in the history of this franchise. He's arguably the best right handed hitter of this, or any, generation. His name's Frank Thomas.

Frankfan4life
06-11-2004, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by mmmmmbeeer
Let him walk. He's not worth the money he's seeking, not even close. We've got a ton of money coming off the books this offseason, we'll be able to fill any hole that Maggs leaves behind. I went back and read the Cowley article again so that I could have a better idea of what it actually said. Nowhere in the article did it mention how much money was offered or turned down.
A New York newspaper reported two weeks ago that Ordonez was offered a five-year, $70 million deal ó the contract Ordonez was seeking last winter. Ordonez called the newspaper report "a lie."

According to the source, Ordonez was 100 percent correct in that assessment, because the Sox never put that type of offer on the table. The source said the Sox and Ordonez's representatives couldn't even come to an agreement on the number of years on a deal, let alone get into the financial aspect.
It seems as if the parting of the ways had more to do with the Sox not wanting to sign Ordonez than with him turning down big money and being greedy. I suspect the Sox wanted to use Maggs as trade bait all along. If this is so, I am extremely sad and disappointed in our management.

Man Soo Lee
06-11-2004, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
The Abreu comparison is legit. Maggs is a slightly, and I mean slightly, better hitter. Abreu is a much better fielder. He also runs the bases better. They're the same age and have close to equal overall ability.

FWIW, Abreu's contract:

2004: $10.0M
2005: $12.5M
2006: $13.0M
2007: $15.0M
2008: Team option $16.0M or $2.0M buyout

JasonC23
06-11-2004, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
Secondly, whoever said that Maggs is better than Garrett Anderson needs to reevaluate things.

That would be me. Please read my post with their career and recent AVG/OBP/SLG (it's directly above yours) and explain to me what I need to reevaluate. Mags is a year and a half younger than Anderson, hits for a higher average than Anderson, gets on base a bunch more than Anderson, and hits for more power than Anderson. I fail to see how I've misinterpreted things.

TaylorStSox
06-11-2004, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by JasonC23
That would be me. Please read my post with their career and recent AVG/OBP/SLG (it's directly above yours) and explain to me what I need to reevaluate. Mags is a year and a half younger than Anderson, hits for a higher average than Anderson, gets on base a bunch more than Anderson, and hits for more power than Anderson. I fail to see how I've misinterpreted things.

Your implying that Maggs is alot better. First, he isn't. Anderson drives in the same amount of runs. Maggs hits for a slightly better average which can be negated somewhat because Anderson is LH'd. Maggs has a slightly better .OBA. Anderson's a better fielder. Anderson is 1 year older. 1 year. His career numbers are different because he's been in the league for 3 more years. While Maggs developed in the minors, Anderson developed in the pros. Of course his numbers will be better.

BTW, Anderson makes less than half the money that Maggs makes. I'd take Anderson in a heartbeat.

I think you're basing alot of the on OBA. IMO, it's a hugely overated stat for guys hitting in the 3 and 4 spots. I want the guys in the middle of the line up driving in runs, not taking walks.

Some of you need to take off the silver and black glasses.

Man Soo Lee
06-11-2004, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
BTW, Anderson makes less than half the money that Maggs makes. I'd take Anderson in a heartbeat.

Anderson signed a 4 year/48 million extension with an option for a fifth year.

LASOXFAN
06-11-2004, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
The Sox in all reality, should be 8-4 if it weren't for Koch. Ross Gload and Aaron Rowand instead of Maggs has not been the cause of the .500 record they've had for the games Maggs has been down.

scoreboard: 6-6.

i rest my case.

TaylorStSox
06-11-2004, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Man Soo Lee
Anderson signed a 4 year/48 million extension with an option for a fifth year.

Nice one. IMO Maggs is worth about the same. I've always said that he's in the 10-12 area.

TornLabrum
06-11-2004, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
A) If you watched those games - you'd know that the problem wasnt' offense or RF in general

B) I don't think anybody said we don't need him - only that we shouldn't overpay him. There is a significant difference.

In response to question A): Exactly how many runs did we score in Oakland and Anaheim?

Jurr
06-11-2004, 05:42 PM
Look at the Alex Rodriguez situation in Seattle and in Texas. They both improved immensely when the big salary was gone. You take away a big hunk of salary and fill it in with guys that are a little less explosive but solid. It's the way the last 3 world series teams were built and the way other sports teams have been put together, such as New England. I love Maggs, but if we can get a guy in here to hit 20-25 homers and bat .275 while playing a good outfield, we can take the rest of the money and buy some great pitching and some solid help elsewhere. It's okay, Sox fans.

TornLabrum
06-11-2004, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Hal:

Once again your comments impart a sense of historical wisdom that many fans, usually young, statistically driven and financially orientated just can't seem to grasp.

The only statistics that matters are these, 45 years since the last World Series appearance, a dwindling fan base, second class status in their own city and a publicy financed stadium with clauses in the deal that ensure financial success with the state obligated to buy tickets if attendence drops below a certain level.

But of course the only thing ownership is obligated to doing, in their minds, even though they 'own' a public trust, is to make a profit.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at them.

Lip

I prefer to curse at them.

SEALgep
06-11-2004, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
scoreboard: 6-6.

i rest my case. You were already told why that was misleading. If you can't watch the games in LA, why are you making conclusions based on them.

TornLabrum
06-11-2004, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Mags is valuable, but can you replace or exceed that value at a cheaper or the same cost? That is the question for the Sox need to answer now. Just like females (or males) there are always other fish in the sea.

Guys who hit over .300 every year, drive in 100+ runs, and hit over 30 HR are a dime a dozen.

TornLabrum
06-11-2004, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by TommyJohn
Liptak, did you hijack Torn's username?

Read my profile, Tommy. Then you'll understand.

LASOXFAN
06-11-2004, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
You were already told why that was misleading. If you can't watch the games in LA, why are you making conclusions based on them.

Actually, I watch all the games. Funny little thing on my roof called a "satellite dish." Check it out.

Sure Koch blew games. Maybe Mags would've put it out of reach for Billy not to blow, or those hitting around Mags would've seen better pitches and had bigger games. IMO it's even MORE misleading to suggest that his presence was filled by someone like Rowand.

No matter how you slice and dice, the Sox are playing .500 ball since he's been gone.

6-6.

again, I rest my case.

SEALgep
06-11-2004, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
Actually, I watch all the games. Funny little thing on my roof called a "satellite dish." Check it out.

Sure Koch blew games. Maybe Mags would've put it out of reach for Billy not to blow, or those hitting around Mags would've seen better pitches and had bigger games. IMO it's even MORE misleading to suggest that his presence was filled by someone like Rowand.

No matter how you slice and dice, the Sox are playing .500 ball since he's been gone.

6-6.

again, I rest my case. You make it sound like Maggs leaving, the team would be the same with no improvements with the money saved. That's a poor assumption. You can rest your case all you want, but if you watched the games, you know exactly why we lost.

jabrch
06-11-2004, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
In response to question A): Exactly how many runs did we score in Oakland and Anaheim?

Enough to win - had the pen not blown it.

South Side
06-11-2004, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
Great idea!!! They should resign Magglio at whatever terms he wants plus 10% - after all, it's not our money, right?

Of course, then the corresponding changes to the rest of the team (bye bye Loaiza, Shoney - hello Felix Diaz & Arnie Munoz) won't be so bad - after all, we'll have MAGGS!!!!

Or maybe we should offer the same type of deal to E-Lo & Shoney.....I mean what's to stop us from a Yankee-sized payroll - except not having Yankee sized revenues that is....

Yeah, you're right. Why should I care about JR's money? As long as he puts a winning team out there I don't care how much money goes toward one player... Like you said, it's not mine!

TommyJohn
06-11-2004, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Read my profile, Tommy. Then you'll understand.

Do you mean the part about being a Sox fan since 1955? If so,
I can understand the frustration. I haven't been around quite
as long, but I get disgusted sometimes too and have lost it
and done Captain Queeg-esque rants my share of times. I guess
I'm just getting cranky in my old age.

South Side
06-11-2004, 06:47 PM
1. To say Magglio is greedy is redundent. He is a baseball player who is getting paid 14 million dollars (more than anyone would need to live a comfortable life). When regarding money with pro athletes you have to begin to think in terms of their money but in reality of course he's greedy we all know this.

2. In that article, it said discussions did not even get as far as finances so how do you all even know that he is looking for more than he is being paid now?

Like I said before, you need to think of it in baseball player salary terms (disgustingly overpaid terms). Are any of you willing to take a pay cut next year? No? Why would Maggs be willing to? I want Maggs resigned if it involves him being paid the same amount he is being paid this year. In that case it is in JR's court and he needs to step it up and resign Maggs. If Maggs wants more money then I say let him go b/c that amount going into one player is not in the best interest of the team and then he is a greedy bitch.

SEALgep
06-11-2004, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by South Side
Yeah, you're right. Why should I care about JR's money? As long as he puts a winning team out there I don't care how much money goes toward one player... Like you said, it's not mine! The problem is that it becomes exceedingly difficult to have a competitive team when you give one player a blank check.

South Side
06-11-2004, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
The problem is that it becomes exceedingly difficult to have a competitive team when you give one player a blank check.

Well, I guess we will see how it pans out at the end of the season this year.

TornLabrum
06-11-2004, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Enough to win - had the pen not blown it.

Translation: 6 runs in Oakland (average: 3 runs/game) and 10 runs in Seattle (average: 3.3 runs/game. Total runs on the road trip 16 runs in 5 games (average: 3.2 runs/game)

Breaking the offense down further, the unhappy totals (as Jack Brickhouse used to say):

Game 1 in Oakland: 4 runs, 10 hits
Game 2 in Oakland: 2 runs, 11 hits
Total in Oakland: 6 runs, 21 hits
Avg. in Oakland: 3 runs, 7 hits

Game 1 in Seattle: 4 runs, 9 hits
Game 2 in Seattle: 2 runs, 6 hits
Game 3 in Seattle: 4 runs, 9 hits
Total in Seattle: 10 runs, 24 hits
Avg. in Seattle: 3.3 rubs, 8 hits

Avg. for Trip: 3.2 runs, 9 hits.

This is not good offense by any stretch of the imagination. Nah, we didn't miss Maggs one bit!

TornLabrum
06-11-2004, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by TommyJohn
Do you mean the part about being a Sox fan since 1955? If so,
I can understand the frustration. I haven't been around quite
as long, but I get disgusted sometimes too and have lost it
and done Captain Queeg-esque rants my share of times. I guess
I'm just getting cranky in my old age.

Try favorite current player, too.

batmanZoSo
06-11-2004, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller
Here's the story by Joe Cowley (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/111sd1.htm)

Maggs, we really knew ye. Can't say we hardly knew ye.

Gotta get someone to protect Frank now. We've seen all they have to do is pitch around him and get Konerko and Lee out.

No trading Reed for anybody. He's gotta be the man in right and hopefully for the next decade.

We need that one guy who can strike at least some fear in the pitcher so as to eliminate the walk Frank and get the easy out thing we've got going. After that, we need a center fielder, a closer and a Buehrle-quality or better starter. Maybe Shingo is the closer, who knows, so maybe we only need three things. We'll be alright if we address them. We can greatly improve the pitching, speed and defense next year so we won't miss a beat as long as there's someone to protect Frank. Doesn't have to be as good as Magglio, but has to be consistent.

JasonC23
06-11-2004, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
Your implying that Maggs is alot better. First, he isn't. Anderson drives in the same amount of runs. Maggs hits for a slightly better average which can be negated somewhat because Anderson is LH'd. Maggs has a slightly better .OBA. Anderson's a better fielder. Anderson is 1 year older. 1 year. His career numbers are different because he's been in the league for 3 more years. While Maggs developed in the minors, Anderson developed in the pros. Of course his numbers will be better.

BTW, Anderson makes less than half the money that Maggs makes. I'd take Anderson in a heartbeat.

I think you're basing alot of the on OBA. IMO, it's a hugely overated stat for guys hitting in the 3 and 4 spots. I want the guys in the middle of the line up driving in runs, not taking walks.

Some of you need to take off the silver and black glasses.

I'm not implying anything--Maggs is better than Anderson. His average is slightly better and he hits with slightly more power. But you're wrong, Maggs' OBP isn't slightly better, it's a lot better. But then you say that OBP is "hugely overrated." If not making outs is "hugely overrated," then I guess I just don't understand baseball. I thought the point was to avoid making outs on offense. A hit is better than a walk from the middle of the order, but either is better than an out, and Maggs makes less outs than GA. This is precisely what makes him more valuable.

I get tired of backing up my words with facts and having people look square at the facts and decide that because they don't jive with their pre-formed opinion, they must be wrong. I've never said Anderson wasn't a fine, fine player--he is. He's exactly what the Sox have needed for years--a solid LH bat in the middle of the lineup. I call Carlos Lee "Garret Anderson lite" because I wish Carlos could put it together like Garret has the past couple of years. His performance for a World Series-winning team and in the All-Star Game (and Home Run Contest) last year were great. But Garret Anderson is no Magglio Ordonez.

This is coming off a lot crankier than I intended, but my main point is, Maggs is better than GA, so it's not surprising he's supposedly asking for more than GA money. He should, he's earned it. And while the Sox shouldn't hand him a blank check, they certainly should pay him the going rate, because he's worth it.

TommyJohn
06-12-2004, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Try favorite current player, too.

Ah.

I was pretty mad when it appeared that Frank Thomas was
leaving. These days it doesn't pay to have a favorite player,
especially if he plays for the beloved PH.

LittleBears Suck
06-12-2004, 01:09 AM
I have a feeling this isn't going to be the most popular opinion, but here it goes.

Magglio only had 23 win shares (http://www.baseballgraphs.com/winshares/alwinteam.html#cws) last year. While that is excellent, it's not enough to devote 1/4th of any team's payroll in.

If they hold on to him for the playoffs, they'll get two first rounders for him after he leaves. They can then use the missing money to get other players who can get more wins.

Of course, if Magglio's price goes down, my logic goes out the window. But, as good as Magglio is, he is not 25% of total payroll good.

Mohoney
06-12-2004, 01:18 AM
Originally posted by mmmmmbeeer
He's not even a perennial all-star

He's not?

He's been to 4, Frank's been to 5.

If he didn't tear his meniscus, we're probably talking about a 5th invite this year. He's definitely the cornerstone of our franchise. We lose him, we're screwed, plain and simple.

Mohoney
06-12-2004, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by LittleBears Suck
I have a feeling this isn't going to be the most popular opinion, but here it goes.

Magglio only had 23 win shares (http://www.baseballgraphs.com/winshares/alwinteam.html#cws) last year. While that is excellent, it's not enough to devote 1/4th of any team's payroll in.

If they hold on to him for the playoffs, they'll get two first rounders for him after he leaves. They can then use the missing money to get other players who can get more wins.

Of course, if Magglio's price goes down, my logic goes out the window. But, as good as Magglio is, he is not 25% of total payroll good.

Then make him 15% of the total and UP THE PAYROLL!

batmanZoSo
06-12-2004, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by mmmmmbeeer
He's not even a perennial all-star

Who gives a rats ass? It's the biggest joke of a sham of a farce of a popularity contest on the face of the earth. Case 1--Nomar, first in votes, hasn't put on a jock strap. Case 2--Mark Teixeira. Come on. This guy's getting more votes than Frank Thomas? The whole baseball world just needs to be shot somehow.

TornLabrum
06-12-2004, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by Mohoney
Then make him 15% of the total and UP THE PAYROLL!

Now there's a man after my own heart...one who isn't consumed with fear that Uncle Jer might not make so huge a profit but actually spend the money necessary to upgrade this club into a WINNER.

Nellie_Fox
06-12-2004, 02:17 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
It's the biggest joke of a sham of a farce of a popularity contest on the face of the earth. Is it a traveshamockery? (BZZZZ. No making up words.)

StillMissOzzie
06-12-2004, 02:31 AM
Originally posted by South Side
1. To say Magglio is greedy is redundent. He is a baseball player who is getting paid 14 million dollars (more than anyone would need to live a comfortable life).

2. In that article, it said discussions did not even get as far as finances so how do you all even know that he is looking for more than he is being paid now?

Like I said before, you need to think of it in baseball player salary terms (disgustingly overpaid terms). Are any of you willing to take a pay cut next year? No? Why would Maggs be willing to? I want Maggs resigned if it involves him being paid the same amount he is being paid this year.

I don't like the argument about poor Maggs shouldn't have to take a pay cut because he's getting $14M for this year. That $14M for this year is the side effect of one of JR's elevator contracts, which for Maggs was 3/$29.5M, split up as:

2002: $6.5M
2003: 9.0M
2004: 14.0M

Maggs is in the 3rd year of a deal that averaged just under $10M per year. Even if Maggs did get the 5/$70M deal he wants, which I don't think he deserves, I suspect that it would be something like this:

2005: $10.0M
2006: 12.0M
2007: 14.0M
2008: 16.0M
2009: 18.0M

Oh no, a $4M paycut for Maggs!

SMO
:(:

StockdaleForVeep
06-12-2004, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by mmmmmbeeer
--$14M off the books next season with Maggs gone
--$6M off the books next season with Koch gone
--24% attendance increase, which should atleast keep pace through the rest of the season. If 10% of the increase goes to payroll, that another $6-7M next season
--new TV deal should increase revenues

So you're looking at probably $26M in freed up money this offseason and you only lose Koch and Maggs, two players whose #'s will be VERY easy to replace via trades or FA. You can't compare the Sox now without Maggs to the Sox next season without Maggs. We've done nothing to replace him while he's on the DL and we're playing .500 ball, which should be well over .500 ball with a dependable closer. Next season we'll have free money to replace him. It's a ridiculous comparison.


and who says that 24% increase wont turn into a neg 30% decline in attendence due to fans pissed about losing someone the felt was the franchise of this team.

StockdaleForVeep
06-12-2004, 03:02 AM
Hey, while we're callin for magz head, why not ship frank somewhere, that will free a valuable 22 mill,ooooo


Christ, what numbers do u EXPECT mags to put up to merit how much his is "claimed" to have asked for. Last year was his "down" year and he still had impressive stats and just missed the 30 hr\100 rbi plateu to continue his streak by 1.

Plus everyone is goin "ooo we'll get this FA and this FA and we'll be set!" well for all you pessimists, wasnt bartolo colon a highly touted free agent last offseason? And look what big bucks in anahiem bought them with el barto.

rahulsekhar
06-12-2004, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by StockdaleForVeep
Hey, while we're callin for magz head, why not ship frank somewhere, that will free a valuable 22 mill,ooooo


Christ, what numbers do u EXPECT mags to put up to merit how much his is "claimed" to have asked for. Last year was his "down" year and he still had impressive stats and just missed the 30 hr\100 rbi plateu to continue his streak by 1.

Plus everyone is goin "ooo we'll get this FA and this FA and we'll be set!" well for all you pessimists, wasnt bartolo colon a highly touted free agent last offseason? And look what big bucks in anahiem bought them with el barto.

Nice example: I'll bet you were one of those pissed when we didn't resign him - but it looks like a pretty good move now, huh? Fatolo and his HUGE contract isn't a millstone on our necks.

Paying a guy what he's worth is part of the game. overpaying him isn't. And just because someone else is willing to pay him more doesn't mean you should or that any salary is worthwhile to pay.

gosox41
06-12-2004, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by JasonC23
Isn't Maggs making $14 million this year? And don't the White Sox still have 24 other guys on the roster? And isn't attendance up 26%? And aren't a few big contracts coming off the books at the end of the year?

I'm confused as to how Maggs, by asking for 5/$70, or the same thing he's being paid right now, is being greedy. Or why the Sox, who right now can afford to pay 24 other Major Leaguers and have an attendance that has risen pretty substantially, can't afford exactly what they're paying Maggs right now.

First, no one know's for sure what Magglio is asking for.
Second, the SOx have other holes to fill and shouldn't spend a ton of money to sign one player no matter what the cost.


Bob

gosox41
06-12-2004, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Enough to win - had the pen not blown it.

But not enough to win on a consistent basis. It's asking a lot over the course of a season to have pitching give up 2-3 runs per game in this age.



Bob

gosox41
06-12-2004, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by StockdaleForVeep
and who says that 24% increase wont turn into a neg 30% decline in attendence due to fans pissed about losing someone the felt was the franchise of this team.

Because it won't. As long as the team wins the fans will come out. How come Sox attendance hasn't been increasing every year Magglio has been here as people realized how good he is? Because winning is what sells tickets.

Attendance got good in the second half of 2000 because the tyeam went to the playoffs, not solely becuase Magglio was here. In 2001 they had strong advanced ticket sales, but didn't sell as well as 2000 during the season because the team sucked. 2003 ticket sales picked up when the Sox got hot. It's not like all those fans never heard of Magglio during the first part of 2003 then saw how good he hreally was and that was their reason for going to the ballpark.

If Magglio leaves, the Sox will have a boost in attendance when they win and a decline when they lose.


Bob

LittleBears Suck
06-12-2004, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Now there's a man after my own heart...one who isn't consumed with fear that Uncle Jer might not make so huge a profit but actually spend the money necessary to upgrade this club into a WINNER.

$60 million is enough to win, if you have a GM that knows what he's doing.

TornLabrum
06-12-2004, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by LittleBears Suck
$60 million is enough to win, if you have a GM that knows what he's doing.

And no holes to fill.

SEALgep
06-12-2004, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by LittleBears Suck
$60 million is enough to win, if you have a GM that knows what he's doing. That's not fair to say. A GM would have to get a little lucky as well, including having cheap minor league position talent step up and play like solid veterans, along with some real good young pitching, as the Marlins, who had both.

Philo-Sox-er
06-12-2004, 12:30 PM
I started a new thread with this new report, but nobody is reading it...maybe it iwll get attention on this thread as it is relevant:

Here is a story on mlb.com that discusses the disruptive nature of the Ordonez contract talks. It also indicates that they haven't completely severed negotiations, but that they will not discuss it publicly at all. When asked about this, Ordonez said:


But when asked if his agent, Tom Reich, and the White Sox still were talking, Ordonez nodded his head in the affirmative.

"I guess he's talking to the White Sox right now," Ordonez said



They are most upset over how much this is hurting the team's focus.

Furthermore, thanks to Harold Reynolds' comments on Baseball Tonight, saying Beltran will be on the White Sox, further distraction abound. Here is the link with for the full article:

http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/n...s_mlb&fext=.jsp

gosox41
06-12-2004, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
And no holes to fill.

Some GM's create their own holes.


Bob

tstrike2000
06-12-2004, 03:41 PM
All the speculation about Mag's contract is the reason why players and teams should not go into contract talks during the season. It can be a distraction and it's own cancer in the clubhouse. As of today, the Sox are back in second place. There is still alot of baseball to be played this season. We can win this division, much like at least two of the last three years, but if the focus is on Mag's contract and not our current pitching situation, we may find ourselves fighting for second place. It's not even unconceivable at this point that Detroit, while not winning the division, could get hot and make things even more difficult in our division. If Garland decides to be inconsistant over his next few months of starts, Schoeneweis goes back to his career 5.28 ERA as a starter, we don't soon address the 5th starter issue, and we don't find a reliable closer, it could be a long second half of baseball here on the southside. Plus the Sox have been in a trend of either scoring alot of runs or next to none on a given night, with the exception of the last blown Kroch saves. This is where pitching will be even more exposed. If at season's end, Mags turns down a reported 5-year $70 mill deal that he's currently being offered (non deferred), then he doesn't want to remain in a White Sox uniform. We'd just pick up the pieces and move on from there with the freed up money for next year.

tstrike2000
06-12-2004, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Because it won't. As long as the team wins the fans will come out. How come Sox attendance hasn't been increasing every year Magglio has been here as people realized how good he is? Because winning is what sells tickets.

Attendance got good in the second half of 2000 because the tyeam went to the playoffs, not solely becuase Magglio was here. In 2001 they had strong advanced ticket sales, but didn't sell as well as 2000 during the season because the team sucked. 2003 ticket sales picked up when the Sox got hot. It's not like all those fans never heard of Magglio during the first part of 2003 then saw how good he hreally was and that was their reason for going to the ballpark.

If Magglio leaves, the Sox will have a boost in attendance when they win and a decline when they lose.

Exactly right, just look at the Minnesota Twins. They've lost how many guys, especially from last year? They lost David Ortiz, Perzynski, Eric Milton, Latroy Hawkins, Guardado, Kenny Rogers, to name some over the last two years, yet they keep the fans coming out because their nucleus of players plays well and they contend for first place. This despite Kyle Lohse pitching like crap for most the season thus far. If you win, they will come. Hopefully, the Sox can do that for the rest of this year.

StockdaleForVeep
06-13-2004, 02:02 AM
Nice example: I'll bet you were one of those pissed when we didn't resign him - but it looks like a pretty good move now, huh? Fatolo and his HUGE contract isn't a millstone on our necks.

Paying a guy what he's worth is part of the game. overpaying him isn't. And just because someone else is willing to pay him more doesn't mean you should or that any salary is worthwhile to pay.
I actually was pissed due to the fact i was and still am a huge colon fan, ive followed him ever since he became a regular starter for cleveland. I was so excited to hear sox would be getting him.

JasonC23
06-13-2004, 11:32 AM
First, no one know's for sure what Magglio is asking for.
Second, the SOx have other holes to fill and shouldn't spend a ton of money to sign one player no matter what the cost.


Bob
I agree, Bob, but what I'm trying to point out is that Magglio's supposed contract demand is not that far away from reality, so the Sox would not be signing him "no matter what the cost," they'd be paying him the market rate or slightly above it. I have no problem with that. Does that mean I think they should just let Maggs and his agent bend them over a barrell and give them whatever they want? Of course not, but I don't think $14 million per year is doing that.

And then, of course, I shouldn't have to point out to you, of all people, that just because the Sox save money by not giving it to Maggs does not mean that they will immediately use that same money to fill their other holes (or, even if they do, fill them correctly). :smile:

gosox41
06-13-2004, 12:44 PM
I agree, Bob, but what I'm trying to point out is that Magglio's supposed contract demand is not that far away from reality, so the Sox would not be signing him "no matter what the cost," they'd be paying him the market rate or slightly above it. I have no problem with that. Does that mean I think they should just let Maggs and his agent bend them over a barrell and give them whatever they want? Of course not, but I don't think $14 million per year is doing that.

And then, of course, I shouldn't have to point out to you, of all people, that just because the Sox save money by not giving it to Maggs does not mean that they will immediately use that same money to fill their other holes (or, even if they do, fill them correctly). :smile:
I agree with your last stmt. about filling holes correctly, but one thing I'm confident in is that JR is using what resources he has available to him mney wise. I would not invest so financially, emotionally, or with som uch time if I thought JR was making a huge profit margin at the expense of winning.

It depends on what Magglio wants. I draw the line at $14 mill. We're not going to see the 'market' until the offseason to see what it truly holds. It's possible the market can get irrational (ie see Colon who I was happy to see let go at those prices)


Bob