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SoxxoS
06-10-2004, 08:41 AM
On the Score at 8:00 a.m., Mike Murphy and Mulligan had on George Ofman to talk about the White Sox. George was saying that KW is actively persuing a starter, including Tomo Ohka and Freddie Garcia.

They then asked what they would have to give up for Garcia, and Ofman then said that KW stated that Borchard is untouchable. A package would most likely include a package of Jeremy Reed.

Murph then asked "KW would trade Reed before Borchard?"

Ofman responded "Absolutely."

Take it for a grain of salt, but I don't like the sound of this one bit.

Dadawg_77
06-10-2004, 08:47 AM
Kenny probably believe Borchard is ready while Reed is a year or so away. So if Mags or Lee leaves, he will need Borchard next year, while Reed won't be that much help. Another posibility is Kenny misevaluating the value of Reed. It could be either one and even both.

Brian26
06-10-2004, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Kenny probably believe Borchard is ready while Reed is a year or so away. So if Mags or Lee leaves, he will need Borchard next year, while Reed won't be that much help. Another posibility is Kenny misevaluating the value of Reed. It could be either one and even both.

It could ALSO be a line of **** that was fed to George Offman. KW may be trying to increase the perceived value of Borchard in spreading those rumors.

SEALgep
06-10-2004, 08:57 AM
If we trade Reed, I can only hope it's for Sheets and not for Garcia (due to being a rent a player) or Tomko (he doesn't do anything for me, especially for Reed).

thepaulbowski
06-10-2004, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Kenny probably believe Borchard is ready while Reed is a year or so away. So if Mags or Lee leaves, he will need Borchard next year, while Reed won't be that much help. Another posibility is Kenny misevaluating the value of Reed. It could be either one and even both.

Or maybe the value of Reed in a trade is more than Borchard. And he may not have to trade as many other quality players with Reed to get what he wants. Just a guess on my part.

munchman33
06-10-2004, 09:12 AM
Reed is a tool player who could end up being a very good major league player. Borchard is a switch hitting power hitter who could end up being an M.V.P., and is likely to replace Magglio next year.

Dadawg_77
06-10-2004, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
It could ALSO be a line of **** that was fed to George Offman. KW may be trying to increase the perceived value of Borchard in spreading those rumors.

True, but who listens to Offman, you would feed that to a Gammons type of reporter.

TommyJohn
06-10-2004, 09:22 AM
I say dump Borchard if they get a chance. I don't want to make
any rash statements (anymore :D: :D: ) but I truly think that
Joe Borchard will wind up being this decade's version of Dave Nicholson.

Frater Perdurabo
06-10-2004, 09:27 AM
I want both players to stay within the organization. If the Sox are unable to re-sign Maggs, Reed and LTP are 2/3rds of the Sox outfield next year.

DSpivack
06-10-2004, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
If we trade Reed, I can only hope it's for Sheets and not for Garcia (due to being a rent a player) or Tomko (he doesn't do anything for me, especially for Reed).

Tomko? You mean Ohka? Ohka has put up very good numbers thus far, I don't know how he would do in the AL, but to me it's the worth the chance, depending on the players involved.

But, yeah, I really don't want to give up Borchard OR Reed, if at all possible.

SEALgep
06-10-2004, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by DSpivack
Tomko? You mean Ohka? Ohka has put up very good numbers thus far, I don't know how he would do in the AL, but to me it's the worth the chance, depending on the players involved.

But, yeah, I really don't want to give up Borchard OR Reed, if at all possible. Ya, I meant Ohka, sorry. However, I don't mind taking a chance necessarily, I'm just not willing to trade Reed for a chance. If we give up Reed, I'm looking for a sure thing. Personally, taking everything into consideration (years signed and al that) I'm pretty much only willing to deal Reed for Sheets. I know it wouldn't be straight up, but we would have a real solid pitcher for more than one year. Sheets is coming into his own, and I expect the success he's having this season to continue throughout his career.

HomerCoach
06-10-2004, 09:57 AM
I will be very upset if we trade Reed, no matter who it is for. Borchard on the other hand, I wouldn't mind losing.

batmanZoSo
06-10-2004, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Kenny probably believe Borchard is ready while Reed is a year or so away. So if Mags or Lee leaves, he will need Borchard next year, while Reed won't be that much help. Another posibility is Kenny misevaluating the value of Reed. It could be either one and even both.

Reed's pretty much on the same path as Borchard...I can see either of them starting next year. I'd rather keep Reed. He has tools that this team badly, badly needs--some speed, great contact, better defense than Borchard, few strike outs. Borchard's basically his opposite. Average runner, nothing special outfielder from what I've seen, strikes out a ton...

Reed is also three years younger. Borchard's nearing bust territory. I would take the risk and trade him while his value is high. I just think if both pan out in full, Reed makes us a better team than Borchard does.

Originally posted by Brian26


It could ALSO be a line of **** that was fed to George Offman. KW may be trying to increase the perceived value of Borchard in spreading those rumors.

I like that move and it would be sharp on his part, put he already vehemently denied that he was gonna send Borchard away. I don't see him going back on that.

MRKARNO
06-10-2004, 10:03 AM
Trading either of these two players for a player who is either a rent-a-player or not a sure thing would be one of the biggest mistakes this organization could possibly make, much worse than not resigning Maggs. If we're not getting a pitcher the calibur of Sabathia or Sheets that has a similar contract then we are definately making a mistake. If I'm the Mariners, I take Reed for Garcia in a heartbeat.

SEALgep
06-10-2004, 10:06 AM
I think we should trade for Thome. The guy is an absolute machine in our park. The Cubs made a mistake by not signing this guy, at a discount no less.

jabrch
06-10-2004, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
Or maybe the value of Reed in a trade is more than Borchard. And he may not have to trade as many other quality players with Reed to get what he wants. Just a guess on my part.


That's my guess - KW knows that Garcia is a decent #2/#3, but will be a FA after the year. He could probably get him for Borchard. He knows that Sheets and Sabathia are both better pitchers (higher cielings at least), and are under contract for more time. Trading Reed to get Sheets helps us a lot both this year and next year. Trading Borchard to get Garcia helps us less this year and not much at all next year - when we can bid on Garcia anyhow in the open market.

Here's a thought - trade Reed to get Sheets

Win the World Series

Then in the offseason you can sign Garcia as a FA. Assuming we can resign Loaiza, we'd have 6 SPs - and be able to trade either Garland or Schoenweis to either replace Reed or to possibly help the MLB or the farm clubs in other places.

Loaiza
Buehrle
Sheets
Garland
Shoe
Garcia

Not a bad option - who knows. KW has been very successful in getting players in season without overpaying. I don't have any reason to doubt this will continue.

MRKARNO
06-10-2004, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I think we should trade for Thome. The guy is an absolute machine in our park. The Cubs made a mistake by not signing this guy, at a discount no less.

You mean this in deep pink, right? We already have a 1b and a DH, both of whom are pretty darn good. Plus why would the phillies trade their best hitter if they're likely going to play in october??? Yeah, I think we should get that A-Rod guy from the yanks, or maybe that Pujols guy from the Cards. It would be awesome to have one of them

jabrch
06-10-2004, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by HomerCoach
I will be very upset if we trade Reed, no matter who it is for. Borchard on the other hand, I wouldn't mind losing.

Wait until next year - huh?

We are poised to win this year. Let's not dicker around. Next year could be a far different season if Magglio chooses to not take what will amount to a fair offer from us because he can make more money elsewhere. (not blaming him for that - we all would consider it - but that is a realistic scenario) Replacing Magglio with Reed or Borchard projects to be a downgrade - regardless of how good those guys project out to be. Lee, Frank, etc. are all having good years. Who knows if Uribe and Harris are 1/2 year wonders or not.

I'd trade Reed or Borchard in the RIGHT deal - but for Reed it would have to be more than a rent-a-player deal. And for Borchard, if it was Garcia, I might want to try and play Seattle into also trading us a RP. (Guardado? Franklin? Hasegawa?) But in any case - closing our minds to the option of moving Reed is a bad plan - I am glad KW is considering it and trying to see what value he can get.

MRKARNO
06-10-2004, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
That's my guess - KW knows that Garcia is a decent #2/#3, but will be a FA after the year. He could probably get him for Borchard. He knows that Sheets and Sabathia are both better pitchers (higher cielings at least), and are under contract for more time. Trading Reed to get Sheets helps us a lot both this year and next year. Trading Borchard to get Garcia helps us less this year and not much at all next year - when we can bid on Garcia anyhow in the open market.


3-4 months of Freddy Garcia just isnt worth a Joe Borchard level minor leaguer

DaveIsHere
06-10-2004, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
3-4 months of Freddy Garcia just isnt worth a Joe Borchard level minor leaguer

If we win it is!

MRKARNO
06-10-2004, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by DaveIsHere
If we win it is!

You dont get it though. Garcia is not worth Borchard on the trade market. He might be very valuable to us, but we shouldnt have to give up Borchard to get Garcia. Rowand and a pitcher or two should be enough to get the job done, maybe Rauch or Diaz (both of whom continue to excel at AAA). Rowand and Rauch would probably a better offer than any other that they will get. If kenny decides to give up Borchard/Reed to hasten the deal by a week or two then he is making a terrible move, one that I think he wont make.

quade36
06-10-2004, 10:24 AM
Okay, I am going to be the first to say lets not completely jump on Jeremy Reed's jock. He has put up great minor league numbers, but last I checked we have a guy on the team who put up extraordinary minor league numbers and well, his .212 BA this year doesn't make me dance.

But hey, I still believe in Joey...

jabrch
06-10-2004, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
3-4 months of Freddy Garcia just isnt worth a Joe Borchard level minor leaguer

The market will dictate that - right? If we make it to the World Series - it sure is worth Borchard. Lets see what happens when NYY, BOS, MIN, TEX and STL start bidding against us for him.

MRKARNO
06-10-2004, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
The market will dictate that - right? If we make it to the World Series - it sure is worth Borchard. Lets see what happens when NYY, BOS, MIN, TEX and STL start bidding against us for him.

The idea is to try to get him now before all those other teams enter the race. Make a move before they can even negotiate.

JasonC23
06-10-2004, 10:29 AM
If Kenny trades Reed for a rent-a-pitcher, he's an idiot. He will have demonstrated once and for all that he has no idea what "buy low, sell high" means. Reed is his hottest prospect and a player he should not trade. But if he just HAS to trade him--his hottest, most visable, most desirable prospect--he damn well get someone AWESOME for him, not Freddy frickin' Garcia!

jabrch
06-10-2004, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
You dont get it though. Garcia is not worth Borchard on the trade market. He might be very valuable to us, but we shouldnt have to give up Borchard to get Garcia. Rowand and a pitcher or two should be enough to get the job done, maybe Rauch or Diaz (both of whom continue to excel at AAA). Rowand and Rauch would probably a better offer than any other that they will get. If kenny decides to give up Borchard/Reed to hasten the deal by a week or two then he is making a terrible move, one that I think he wont make.

we all get it - but there is a market out there for a good SP. There are plenty of teams bidding on him. Look - Borchard is a talent - but at the beginning of this season there were a lot of people calling him a bust. He is old as far as prospect go - and is at the do - or - die part of his career. Before we go sucking his d***, lets remember this is his BEST season in his minor league career and he is only hitting .277/.322 obp with 10 HR in Charlotte.

How can you say it isn't worth trading him for a #2/#3 starter? He is worth (over the remaining games) at least 5-7 wins - at a bare minimum compared to our other current options at 5th starter.

thepaulbowski
06-10-2004, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by HomerCoach
I will be very upset if we trade Reed, no matter who it is for. Borchard on the other hand, I wouldn't mind losing.

I'm still waiting for that Ruffcorn character to show us what he has.

jabrch
06-10-2004, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
The idea is to try to get him now before all those other teams enter the race. Make a move before they can even negotiate.


Those teams ARE in the race. You don't think Bavassi isn't going to call them all before he pulls a deal- do you? You don't think Bavassi hasn't already talked to all of them to guage interest - do you? Seattle will not just pull a trade with the Sox without looking to see what else they might be able to get. That's not how things work.

thepaulbowski
06-10-2004, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
The idea is to try to get him now before all those other teams enter the race. Make a move before they can even negotiate.


Most of the teams mentioned have depleted minor leagues with deals in the past. The Sox can offer a much better deal.

jabrch
06-10-2004, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
I'm still waiting for that Ruffcorn character to show us what he has.


agreed - we can go on and on and on with the list of can't miss prospects that missed. I want to win now. We have a team that can win. We have a ton of OF prospects in the system that people who know a boatload more than I do are very high on. Any one of them can be had in the right deal. Would I trade Reed for Garcia - no. Would I trade Reed for Garcia, Guardado and Cash? HELL YES. That's just my point - I am open to anything if the deal is right - but not going to hold on to the next McKay Christenson just because of what he might be if there is a deal out there that will win it for us today.

jabrch
06-10-2004, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
Most of the teams mentioned have depleted minor leagues with deals in the past. The Sox can offer a much better deal.

But a "much better deal" will likely have to include Reed or Borchard, right? Dransfeldt and Rowand doesn't get you much.

jabrch
06-10-2004, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
Most of the teams mentioned have depleted minor leagues with deals in the past. The Sox can offer a much better deal.


All of those teams have enought to get Freddy Garcia - right? Maybe not Sheets or Sabathia, but Garcia - yes. Even the Yanks - with the worst MLB ready talent pool in the minors - still have Navarro who should be about enough to get Garcia.

SEALgep
06-10-2004, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
You mean this in deep pink, right? We already have a 1b and a DH, both of whom are pretty darn good. Plus why would the phillies trade their best hitter if they're likely going to play in october??? Yeah, I think we should get that A-Rod guy from the yanks, or maybe that Pujols guy from the Cards. It would be awesome to have one of them Yes, a mixture of deep pink and teal, my bad.

Dadawg_77
06-10-2004, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by quade36
Okay, I am going to be the first to say lets not completely jump on Jeremy Reed's jock. He has put up great minor league numbers, but last I checked we have a guy on the team who put up extraordinary minor league numbers and well, his .212 BA this year doesn't make me dance.

But hey, I still believe in Joey...


Crede's numbers were that close to Reeds'. Joe EQA is .215 while Reed's Major League EQA is .243 right now. Since Reeds is depressed by a slow start, I would expect him to be a lot better player the Crede.


http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?Name=JEH
http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?Name=GHAI

MRKARNO
06-10-2004, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
All of those teams have enought to get Freddy Garcia - right? Maybe not Sheets or Sabathia, but Garcia - yes. Even the Yanks - with the worst MLB ready talent pool in the minors - still have Navarro who should be about enough to get Garcia.

A package of Rowand, who still has potential to be a good 3rd outfielder, maybe 2nd, and an AAA pitcher such as Diaz or Rauch would probably be better than a Yankees package centered on Navarro. Rowand is already ML ready and he would be a good third outfielder after Ibanez and Ichiro. WInn has been a total bust this year and Rowand is probably better than Winn in his good years. And c'mon. The Mariners remember the last guy in the major leagues named Navarro. He didnt turn out too well, did he?

Besides, do you realize how many other SPs are on the market? THere are actually quite a few so as some have said it's a buyer's market so we can always use the threat of acquiring Tomo Ohka to try to get Garcia (if Sheets and Sabathia become unrealistic possibilities, which they might)

Dadawg_77
06-10-2004, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
A package of Rowand, who still has potential to be a good 3rd outfielder, maybe 2nd, and an AAA pitcher such as Diaz or Rauch would probably be better than a Yankees package centered on Navarro. Rowand is already ML ready and he would be a good third outfielder after Ibanez and Ichiro. WInn has been a total bust this year and Rowand is probably better than Winn in his good years. And c'mon. The Mariners remember the last guy in the major leagues named Navarro. He didnt turn out too well, did he?

Besides, do you realize how many other SPs are on the market? THere are actually quite a few so as some have said it's a buyer's market so we can always use the threat of acquiring Tomo Ohka to try to get Garcia (if Sheets and Sabathia become unrealistic possibilities, which they might)

Wow, if Seattle want Rowand thinking he is a good starting OF, I'll help pack his bags.

MRKARNO
06-10-2004, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Wow, if Seattle want Rowand thinking he is a good starting OF, I'll help pack his bags.

Look at their outfield. It's pathetic. Rowand would definately be an improvement over Winn, Bocachica, Cabrera and all the other retreads they could put out there.

Gammons Peter
06-10-2004, 11:29 AM
There is no such thing as a two or three outfielder. There are starters and fours. Rowand is a four

thepaulbowski
06-10-2004, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
But a "much better deal" will likely have to include Reed or Borchard, right? Dransfeldt and Rowand doesn't get you much.

If the deal includes Reed or Borchard, so be it. I've seen too many "can't miss" guys miss. I want to win and win now. I've been waiting 20 some years to see the Sox in a World Series. Nobody should be untouchable if you haven't won a World Series since 1917. Ah, what the heck let's just wait til next year.

JasonC23
06-10-2004, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
If the deal includes Reed or Borchard, so be it. I've seen too many "can't miss" guys miss. I want to win and win now. I've been waiting 20 some years to see the Sox in a World Series. Nobody should be untouchable if you haven't won a World Series since 1917. Ah, what the heck let's just wait til next year.

This is getting silly. If God came down and told any one of us that, yeah, Reed will go on to be a star, but if the Sox trade him for (pitcher) that the Sox are GUARANTEED to win the World Series this year, OF COURSE we all would do it! But here's the catch...it's NOT a guarantee.

I get tired of the "screw prospects, I want to win now!" ranting on this board. Of course a GM should always want to win and win now, but that doesn't mean the Sox should trade anything and everything of value in their system to do it with no guarantee of it actually happening.

Question for the "win it all now at any cost" contingent...when was the last time a team that did this actually, you know, won it all?

SEALgep
06-10-2004, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Crede's numbers were that close to Reeds'. Joe EQA is .215 while Reed's Major League EQA is .243 right now. Since Reeds is depressed by a slow start, I would expect him to be a lot better player the Crede.


http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?Name=JEH
http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?Name=GHAI Isn't Crede's depressed by a slow start as well?

Dadawg_77
06-10-2004, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Isn't Crede's depressed by a slow start as well?

Even if so, .215 compared to .243 is still considerably less.

pudge
06-10-2004, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Crede's numbers were that close to Reeds'. Joe EQA is .215 while Reed's Major League EQA is .243 right now. Since Reeds is depressed by a slow start, I would expect him to be a lot better player the Crede.


http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?Name=JEH
http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?Name=GHAI

yeah I don't think Crede ever showed the plate discipline that Reed has... If they trade Reed I will be ill.

Borchard is a K machine who isn't ever going to amount to much IMO. But they paid him that huge signing bonus.

minastirith67
06-10-2004, 12:19 PM
Dump Borchard if you can and get all you can for him...preferably Ben Sheets.

JasonC23
06-10-2004, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Isn't Crede's depressed by a slow start as well?

If he's not, he damn well should be. :D:

Paulwny
06-10-2004, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by JasonC23
This is getting silly. If God came down and told any one of us that, yeah, Reed will go on to be a star, but if the Sox trade him for (pitcher) that the Sox are GUARANTEED to win the World Series this year, OF COURSE we all would do it! But here's the catch...it's NOT a guarantee.

I get tired of the "screw prospects, I want to win now!" ranting on this board. Of course a GM should always want to win and win now, but that doesn't mean the Sox should trade anything and everything of value in their system to do it with no guarantee of it actually happening.

Question for the "win it all now at any cost" contingent...when was the last time a team that did this actually, you know, won it all?

There is also No Guarantee that any of these prospects will ever be mlb players.

Dadawg_77
06-10-2004, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
There is also No Guarantee that any of these prospects will ever be mlb players.

There is also no guarantee you will wake up tomorrow. You have to play percentages when making trades, what are the chances player A will help the club now and what are the chances Player B will help the club tomorrow. Weigh them and then make the choice.

Paulwny
06-10-2004, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
There is also no guarantee you will wake up tomorrow. You have to play percentages when making trades, what are the chances player A will help the club now and what are the chances Player B will help the club tomorrow. Weigh them and then make the choice.

That's exactly what concerns me, waking up tomorrow. I was a teenager in 1959, I'm still waiting for the can't miss prospects to take us to the promised land.

thepaulbowski
06-10-2004, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by JasonC23
Question for the "win it all now at any cost" contingent...when was the last time a team that did this actually, you know, won it all?

I don't remember saying "win it all now at any cost." But you answer your own question. This team hasn't won it all, so they need to do what they can to position themselves to do that. If that means trading some top prospects for what they need, fine. I'm tired of waiting for all these prospects I've told about for the last 5-10 years.

akingamongstmen
06-10-2004, 12:38 PM
I hate to break to all of the wishful-thinking folks on this board, but the Sox aren't going to get Sheets or Sabathia. They are pretty much untradeable from the perspective of the Brewers and Indians respectively. Bad teams generally don't like to trade away their best young pitcher for no reason. However, Freddy Garcia can be had, and I think KW is playing his cards well. The whole "Borchard is untouchable" thing is going to help. Plus, the fact that we have tons of minor league OF talent should be enough to push a trade over the hump...even if we have to give up Reed (who could, as was mentioned before, be the next McKay Christenson anyway).

jabrch
06-10-2004, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Wow, if Seattle want Rowand thinking he is a good starting OF, I'll help pack his bags.

Me too! even DumbKenny knows that Rowand isn't a #3 OF.

I'd be shocked to see Garcia here and not lose Borchard or Reed in the process.

JasonC23
06-10-2004, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
I don't remember saying "win it all now at any cost." But you answer your own question. This team hasn't won it all, so they need to do what they can to position themselves to do that. If that means trading some top prospects for what they need, fine. I'm tired of waiting for all these prospects I've told about for the last 5-10 years.

I think you missed my point. My question was, can anyone name a team (not just the White Sox, any team) that used the "trade away anything valuable to win right now" approach and then actually won it all? I'd be a lot less hostile to that approach if people could produce examples of it working.

JasonC23
06-10-2004, 12:47 PM
And apologies for the dola-post, but I want to be sure people know that I, too, am sick of the Sox not winning, and I really, really want to proudly announce myself as a fan of the World Series champion White Sox. But I just don't think that foolishly trading away a top prospect for a guy that might be a good #3 starter is a good way to accomplish that.

Paulwny
06-10-2004, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by JasonC23
I think you missed my point. My question was, can anyone name a team (not just the White Sox, any team) that used the "trade away anything valuable to win right now" approach and then actually won it all? I'd be a lot less hostile to that approach if people could produce examples of it working.

The yankmees, even though they spend the $$$, have always used their farm to obtain players to plug holes.

CWSGuy406
06-10-2004, 12:54 PM
I'll give up Reed only if we're trading for Sheets. Reed for Ohka/Garcia is already overpaying IMO.

BTW, Good to see Rauch doing well at AAA. If anything it increases his trade value. What happened to the Mariners just wanting Rowand/Rauch/PTBNL? Or was that never the case?

samram
06-10-2004, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
The yankmees, even though they spend the $$$, have always used their farm to obtain players to plug holes.

Not just their farm system, but they traded Soriano and Johnson this off season, who were really the only young, relatively inexpensive players they had on the team. Of course, they got Vazquez and A-Rod, which is better than what the Sox can get right now. On the other hand, it doesn't appear anybody is asking the Sox to trade Harris or Uribe or Olivo for the most mentioned pitchers.

samram
06-10-2004, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by CWSGuy406
I'll give up Reed only if we're trading for Sheets. Reed for Ohka/Garcia is already overpaying IMO.

BTW, Good to see Rauch doing well at AAA. If anything it increases his trade value. What happened to the Mariners just wanting Rowand/Rauch/PTBNL? Or was that never the case?

Rauch threw really well last night. When I was listening to the game he had seven shutout innings against the same team Diaz got killed by on Monday night.

SEALgep
06-10-2004, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by CWSGuy406
I'll give up Reed only if we're trading for Sheets. Reed for Ohka/Garcia is already overpaying IMO.

BTW, Good to see Rauch doing well at AAA. If anything it increases his trade value. What happened to the Mariners just wanting Rowand/Rauch/PTBNL? Or was that never the case? It depends what the market dictates, and right now, Garcia is drawing interest from several teams. They'll take whatever is the best offer for their team. Hopefully the other pitchers available will lower his market value.

JasonC23
06-10-2004, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
The yankmees, even though they spend the $$$, have always used their farm to obtain players to plug holes.

What about Jeter, Williams, Posada, Rivera, and (until this year) Pettite? The Yankee dynasty of the late 1990s was fueled by the farm system. Yes, it's true, since 2000, the Yankees have been trading most every young prospect they have...but, then, the Yankees haven't won the World Series since 2000.

To me, the key to building a championship team is a balanced approach--ie, knowing when to trade prospects and when to keep them and use them. Kenny scares me because I haven't seen a lot of evidence that he knows which guys the Sox should keep and which guys the Sox should trade.

Bottom line for me is, if all the team is getting is Freddy Garcia, I see no reason for KW to trade away his best prospects/trading chips. Save them for someone truly worthy of them...or (GASP) call 'em up and let 'em help the team!

jeremyb1
06-10-2004, 01:09 PM
As others have pointed out if KW truly values Borchard over Reed he's more incompetant than I thought. Everyone constantly talks about Borchards upside but how many position players can you think of that debuted at 26 and became All-Stars/MVP candidates?

CWSGuy406
06-10-2004, 01:12 PM
JasonC, I totally agree with you and with what you are saying. Look - everyone here, in the right mind, wants to win this year. But - you have to find deals that are fair, too. You cannot trade a top MLB prospect for a Number 2-3 starter, which is in fact what Freddy Garcia is. Believe me, I really want Garcia, but at the right price. His splits away from SafeCo really are unimpressive, so if we get him, it better not be for a Jeremy Reed.

I don't know why Kenny (I hope it isn't true) is making Reed so damn expendable. Reed, IMHO, at his worst will be a guy who will hit .260 with an OBP of around .340 - at his worst. But, I think when he really turns it on, this kid will be capable of an OBP of around 400, something we desperately need in this lineup. If you put Reed in front of Thomas, they will need to be forced to pitch better to Frank, simply because Reed will be on first a lot of the times. Again - we desperately need him in our lineup in the future, and the only way I trade him is if we get a Ben Sheets caliber pitcher in return.

jabrch
06-10-2004, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by CWSGuy406
I don't know why Kenny (I hope it isn't true) is making Reed so damn expendable.

So damn expendable? When did Kenny make Reed so damn expendable?

LOL

sas1974
06-10-2004, 01:20 PM
Joe is Kenny's insurance policy in case Maggs doesn't return next year.

samram
06-10-2004, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by JasonC23
What about Jeter, Williams, Posada, Rivera, and (until this year) Pettite? The Yankee dynasty of the late 1990s was fueled by the farm system. Yes, it's true, since 2000, the Yankees have been trading most every young prospect they have...but, then, the Yankees haven't won the World Series since 2000.

To me, the key to building a championship team is a balanced approach--ie, knowing when to trade prospects and when to keep them and use them. Kenny scares me because I haven't seen a lot of evidence that he knows which guys the Sox should keep and which guys the Sox should trade.

Bottom line for me is, if all the team is getting is Freddy Garcia, I see no reason for KW to trade away his best prospects/trading chips. Save them for someone truly worthy of them...or (GASP) call 'em up and let 'em help the team!

Those four Yanks you mention were the building blocks of that team- they really weren't very good until Bernie and Jeter came around, even though Steinbrenner was starting to spend big around the time those guys came up. Now that they have the team winning almost every year, they fill holes by trading prospects, even Johnson and Soriano. The big advantage they have is they can use the media to build up prospects that aren't very good and then trade them for good veterans. However, they did trade Mike Lowell and probably some other players that have become good, and they won with guys like Scott Brosius and old Wade Boggs at third. I doubt Yanks fans curse the day they traded Lowell.

CWSGuy406
06-10-2004, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
So damn expendable? When did Kenny make Reed so damn expendable?

LOL

Well - from what I'm hearing, "Borchard is untouchable", and nothing said about Reed Untouchable. But then again, that could be just driving up Borchard's price, but has Kenny been known to 'drive up the price' by stating someone as untouchable?

Like I said, I'll trade Reed in a package for Sheets or a top pitcher - not Freddy Garcia.

Paulwny
06-10-2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by JasonC23
What about Jeter, Williams, Posada, Rivera, and (until this year) Pettite? The Yankee dynasty of the late 1990s was fueled by the farm system. Yes, it's true, since 2000, the Yankees have been trading most every young prospect they have...but, then, the Yankees haven't won the World Series since 2000.



I'll give you everyone but Rivera. He came from the Islands, was never part of any draft and went to the highest bidder.
Those 3 players won't get you to the play-offs without, O'Neill, Martinez, Knoblauch, Cone, Wells, Clemens, etc.
The yankmees have had one good/great pitcher out of their farm in the last 10 yrs, Pettite, they continually obtain gun slingers.

rahulsekhar
06-10-2004, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
As others have pointed out if KW truly values Borchard over Reed he's more incompetant than I thought. Everyone constantly talks about Borchards upside but how many position players can you think of that debuted at 26 and became All-Stars/MVP candidates?

Good point, but the catch with Borchard is that IIRC, he never concentrated fully on baseball until he was drafted by the Sox - was always splitting time with football. That lack of early development could make his development at 26 more like a regular rookie at 23 or 24.

jeremyb1
06-10-2004, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
Good point, but the catch with Borchard is that IIRC, he never concentrated fully on baseball until he was drafted by the Sox - was always splitting time with football. That lack of early development could make his development at 26 more like a regular rookie at 23 or 24.

People make that argument but that hasn't hindered other guys that formerly played football so much.

Brian26
06-10-2004, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
People make that argument but that hasn't hindered other guys that formerly played football so much.

It's hindered plenty of guys. Drew Henson comes to mind immediately.

rahulsekhar
06-10-2004, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
People make that argument but that hasn't hindered other guys that formerly played football so much.

What other guys are you referring to? The only ones that ocme to mind immediately for me are Drew Henson & Frank Thomas. Henson sucked, and Frank dropped football a couple of years before getting drafted.

Dadawg_77
06-10-2004, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
It's hindered plenty of guys. Drew Henson comes to mind immediately.

Adam Dunn, Bo Jackson

TaylorStSox
06-10-2004, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Reed's pretty much on the same path as Borchard...I can see either of them starting next year. I'd rather keep Reed. He has tools that this team badly, badly needs--some speed, great contact, better defense than Borchard, few strike outs. Borchard's basically his opposite. Average runner, nothing special outfielder from what I've seen, strikes out a ton...

Reed is also three years younger. Borchard's nearing bust territory. I would take the risk and trade him while his value is high. I just think if both pan out in full, Reed makes us a better team than Borchard does.



I like that move and it would be sharp on his part, put he already vehemently denied that he was gonna send Borchard away. I don't see him going back on that.

I'm curious to hear where you get the drefensive assesment from?

SoxxoS
06-10-2004, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Adam Dunn, Bo Jackson

If Joe Borchard turns into an Adam Dunn clone, I would be very excited. Dunn K's a lot, but he walks and hits with power.

Bo Jackson is a bad example.

Dadawg_77
06-10-2004, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
If Joe Borchard turns into an Adam Dunn clone, I would be very excited. Dunn K's a lot, but he walks and hits with power.

Bo Jackson is a bad example.

Why is Bo a bad example? The question was baseball players who played football also. He did both professionally, and he was Dunn before Dunn came around. Lots of K, Lots power.

gosox41
06-10-2004, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
On the Score at 8:00 a.m., Mike Murphy and Mulligan had on George Ofman to talk about the White Sox. George was saying that KW is actively persuing a starter, including Tomo Ohka and Freddie Garcia.

They then asked what they would have to give up for Garcia, and Ofman then said that KW stated that Borchard is untouchable. A package would most likely include a package of Jeremy Reed.

Murph then asked "KW would trade Reed before Borchard?"

Ofman responded "Absolutely."

Take it for a grain of salt, but I don't like the sound of this one bit.


I think KW should be careful here.


Bob

batmanZoSo
06-10-2004, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by CWSGuy406
JasonC, I totally agree with you and with what you are saying. Look - everyone here, in the right mind, wants to win this year. But - you have to find deals that are fair, too. You cannot trade a top MLB prospect for a Number 2-3 starter, which is in fact what Freddy Garcia is. Believe me, I really want Garcia, but at the right price. His splits away from SafeCo really are unimpressive, so if we get him, it better not be for a Jeremy Reed.

I don't know why Kenny (I hope it isn't true) is making Reed so damn expendable. Reed, IMHO, at his worst will be a guy who will hit .260 with an OBP of around .340 - at his worst. But, I think when he really turns it on, this kid will be capable of an OBP of around 400, something we desperately need in this lineup. If you put Reed in front of Thomas, they will need to be forced to pitch better to Frank, simply because Reed will be on first a lot of the times. Again - we desperately need him in our lineup in the future, and the only way I trade him is if we get a Ben Sheets caliber pitcher in return.

I totally agree. Think about it, if we were a speed team with no power, who would we keep? Borchard. But the opposite is true, we have no speed, and tons of power, with an average defense (and well below average in the outfield). I mean come on, what are we missing here? Do we want another average to below speed power hitter who strikes out a lot?

TaylorST:

I'm curious to hear where you get the defensive assesment from?

I already said where I got it from, my observation. Borchard to me can't cut it in center. He's simply too big, and I've never heard anything about superior jumps or instincts, which would be the only thing that would allow him to play out there. And while he has a great arm, he doesn't get behind fly balls, he gets right under them and throws flat-footed.

I've never seen Reed play the outfield, but he's definitely faster than Borchard..he did get 45 steals last year. Ideally, even he should be a corner outfielder from most every scouting report I've come across. But I'd definitely feel more comfortable with him in center at least for a few years until Anderson or an outside guy who can really go get 'em comes along.

TaylorStSox
06-10-2004, 07:07 PM
Borchard's neither slow nor a poor fielder. That's why I asked. He doesn't steal bases, but he's not going to hurt you on the basepaths.

batmanZoSo
06-10-2004, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
Borchard's neither slow nor a poor fielder. That's why I asked. He doesn't steal bases, but he's not going to hurt you on the basepaths.

No, he's not slow, I didn't even say he was. My point is, we need guys like Reed...we already have guys like Borchard. Which makes more sense?