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View Full Version : Saturday Starter - Munoz


Rex Hudler
06-08-2004, 08:06 PM
Barring a trade, Arnie Munoz will start for the White Sox on Saturday. We'll see if the merry-go-round continues or if Arnie can step up and handle the Bravos.

gosox41
06-08-2004, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Barring a trade, Arnie Munoz will start for the White Sox on Saturday. We'll see if the merry-go-round continues or if Arnie can step up and handle the Bravos.

I didn't hear anything about this, but it is intriguing.

It also makes me hope that KW pulls off a trade for a good pitcher real soon.



Bob

MetalliSox
06-08-2004, 08:10 PM
3 out of my 5 games I have attended have been the 5th starter. <sigh>

rahulsekhar
06-08-2004, 09:02 PM
Well, the Braves are actually a fairly good team to throw a rookie against. 18ks and a perfecto thrown against them? And Chipper's hurting? It's about as good as it'll get going against an ML team.

Prediction: quality start and we stem the 5th starter bleeding for at least a week.

RedPinStripes
06-08-2004, 09:31 PM
If there's going to be a trade, it would be soon withthe way KW works. He probably put a lot of things on hold for the draft.

voodoochile
06-08-2004, 09:33 PM
Ozzie needs to call out the offense before the game.

ScottyTheSoxFan
06-08-2004, 09:37 PM
Another day, another guy. KW has gotta do something very soon.

gosox41
06-08-2004, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
Well, the Braves are actually a fairly good team to throw a rookie against. 18ks and a perfecto thrown against them? And Chipper's hurting? It's about as good as it'll get going against an ML team.

Prediction: quality start and we stem the 5th starter bleeding for at least a week.


I wish I knew hot to attach a picture here that isn't already at WSI.


Bob

SEALgep
06-08-2004, 09:40 PM
Probably the best move under the circumstances until a team is willing to trade. Can give him some experience with less pressure knowing he's just filling in. Good luck to him, I think we'll be pleasantly surprised.

Randar68
06-08-2004, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Probably the best move under the circumstances until a team is willing to trade. Can give him some experience with less pressure knowing he's just filling in. Good luck to him, I think we'll be pleasantly surprised.

Oh no. Why do you have to keep putting the "He'll be fine" hex on the Sox? :D:

Daver
06-08-2004, 10:02 PM
Lil Arnie has a Zito type killer curve, as well as a deceptive fastball and a decent change, but he has just recently been converted to a starter, and has had fatigue issues in the past, I doubt he will be asked to go much more than three innings.

SEALgep
06-08-2004, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Oh no. Why do you have to keep putting the "He'll be fine" hex on the Sox? :D: I didn't say he'll be fine, but I said it about Willie Harris though, so it's all good. :D:

Randar68
06-08-2004, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Lil Arnie has a Zito type killer curve, as well as a deceptive fastball and a decent change, but he has just recently been converted to a starter, and has had fatigue issues in the past, I doubt he will be asked to go much more than three innings.

He's been averaging better than 6 innings per outing for Birmingham, so it will all depend on how well he does. IMO, 5 or 6 innings aren't out of the question. His fatigue issues have been more long-haul issues about holding-up over a long season plus winter ball, no?

SEALgep
06-08-2004, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
He's been averaging better than 6 innings per outing for Birmingham, so it will all depend on how well he does. IMO, 5 or 6 innings aren't out of the question. His fatigue issues have been more long-haul issues about holding-up over a long season plus winter ball, no? He'll be fine. :D:

TaylorStSox
06-08-2004, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Probably the best move under the circumstances until a team is willing to trade. Can give him some experience with less pressure knowing he's just filling in. Good luck to him, I think we'll be pleasantly surprised.

I'd like to see Diaz get another chance. Obviously none of our options are long term though.

SEALgep
06-08-2004, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
I'd like to see Diaz get another chance. Obviously none of our options are long term though. Diaz got pounded his last outing. Still a legit prospect, but I think it would be better to give Munoz a shot, IMO.

Daver
06-08-2004, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
He's been averaging better than 6 innings per outing for Birmingham, so it will all depend on how well he does. IMO, 5 or 6 innings aren't out of the question. His fatigue issues have been more long-haul issues about holding-up over a long season plus winter ball, no?

He had fatigue issues before pitching for 18 straight months, and in those 18 months he was only pitching an inning or two at a time, I would expect Cooper to defer to caution at this point, he is the one that brought him along through most of the minor levels.

I wish I had some tape of some of his starts, but it hasn't made it to me yet.

Lip Man 1
06-08-2004, 10:14 PM
There was a song in the late 70's by a group called The Whispers that best illustrates the Sox 5th starter dilemma...

"And The Beat Goes On..."

Lip

Randar68
06-08-2004, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
There was a song in the late 70's by a group called The Whispers that best illustrates the Sox 5th starter dilemma...

"And The Beat Goes On..."

Lip

Funny you should mention music, LIP, since you're a broken record... how original...

Chisox_cali
06-08-2004, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Funny you should mention music, LIP, since you're a broken record... how original...

AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

POTW!!

RedPinStripes
06-08-2004, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Funny you should mention music, LIP, since you're a broken record... how original...

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!! Post of the night.

DrCrawdad
06-08-2004, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Funny you should mention music, LIP, since you're a broken record... how original...

http://www.fs.fed.us/newcentury/images/high%20five.gif
http://www.deluxecuts.com/images/abc%20pics/z_high_five.jpg

Rex Hudler
06-08-2004, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
He's been averaging better than 6 innings per outing for Birmingham, so it will all depend on how well he does. IMO, 5 or 6 innings aren't out of the question. His fatigue issues have been more long-haul issues about holding-up over a long season plus winter ball, no?

His "fatigue issues" are more perception than reality. Arnie has never been asked to stretch out like a starter. In fact he has 11 starts this year and a grand total of 11 in his life, not just professionally. As a reliever he would go 2, 3 or even 4 innings on occasion when asked.

Arnie is a classic case of a small guy baseball people look at and immediately label. They see his size and immediately assume he can't go deep into games and that he won't hold up physically over the long haul. Those guys of course are also seen as "injury prone". It's a load of crap.

The closest thing he has had to stamina problems is exactly what you mentioned randar. He threw a lot of innings in 2002 for Birmingham, and threw into late September in the playoffs. He then had a heavy workload in Winter Ball where he was the pitcher of the year. Basically he had little time to rest before reporting to Major League camp in ST.

Rex Hudler
06-08-2004, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Lil Arnie has a Zito type killer curve, as well as a deceptive fastball and a decent change, but he has just recently been converted to a starter, and has had fatigue issues in the past, I doubt he will be asked to go much more than three innings.

Daver, he has cut back on it some. It isn't the big breaker it used to be. He throws it at two different speeds, the harder one acts more like a slider. His curveball is still very tight and is very good, it just isn't a shoulder to toes breaker like Zito's.

Daver
06-08-2004, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Daver, he has cut back on it some. It isn't the big breaker it used to be. He throws it at two different speeds, the harder one acts more like a slider. His curveball is still very tight and is very good, it just isn't a shoulder to toes breaker like Zito's.

I haven't seen any tape on him since he was converted to a starter, so you would know better than I do. For the record, and Randar can back me on this, I thought all along that the Sox would convert Arnie into a starter, his stuff is good enough to carry him despite his size.

longshot7
06-08-2004, 11:34 PM
in 5th starter trade hopes, Ben Sheets went 9 inning tonite with 1 hit & no walks. I'd trade LTP & Reed for him.

pudge
06-08-2004, 11:39 PM
Arnie's gonna be the one, I feel something different this time, I don't know why... it's like a tingle somewhere...

Rex Hudler
06-09-2004, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by Daver
I haven't seen any tape on him since he was converted to a starter, so you would know better than I do. For the record, and Randar can back me on this, I thought all along that the Sox would convert Arnie into a starter, his stuff is good enough to carry him despite his size.

I agree and thought that back in 2002. I will admit that I bought into the "stamina" argument at first, but the more I saw him pitch, the more I thought if he was conditioned to do so, he would be worth a look there. My understanding is they thought about converting him last year out of ST, but decided against it based on his total workload the year before.

Arnie is prone to an inning where he gives up 2 or 3 runs on occasion. I am not sure if he loses concentration or what, but he always seems to come back and continue to put up zeroes the next few innings. I hope they pull him too quickly if that happens early on Saturday.

hose
06-09-2004, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Arnie is a classic case of a small guy baseball people look at and immediately label. They see his size and immediately assume he can't go deep into games and that he won't hold up physically over the long haul. Those guys of course are also seen as "injury prone". It's a load of crap.


Here are a couple of "small " lefthanders that got it done in the bigs.

Billy Pierce- 5' 10 160 lbs.

Whitey Ford- 5' 10 181 lbs.

Hopefully the Sox can add Arnie to that list. :cool:

Arnie Munoz- 5' 9 170 lbs.

bigdommer
06-09-2004, 09:09 AM
I am excited about Arnie pitching this weekend. I was excited about Diaz pitching a couple of weeks ago too, even though he didn't get the job done. That is what you have these guys for. They pitch well in the minors...reward them. Don't just call up a guy or start a guy because he gets paid more or because you want to delay arbitration. I always liked it when my coach played the guys who earned their spot.

As for Arnie's small size and fatigue issues, all the Sox want is five innings. Everything else is gravy. If Arnie can get us through five with a lead, I will be happy. Then hand the ball to Cotts, Shingo, and Marte to finish the last four innings. And with Burly-mon throwing Sunday and Loaiza having thrown Friday, the bullpen can afford to be stretched.

SEALgep
06-09-2004, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by longshot7
in 5th starter trade hopes, Ben Sheets went 9 inning tonite with 1 hit & no walks. I'd trade LTP & Reed for him. I'd include one of them in a package, but not both. If Maggs walks we'd be screwed with neither of them, and we may need both.

bigdommer
06-09-2004, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I'd include one of them in a package, but not both. If Maggs walks we'd be screwed with neither of them, and we may need both.

I agree. Even if Maggs stays, we still need a CF soon!

Randar68
06-09-2004, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by longshot7
in 5th starter trade hopes, Ben Sheets went 9 inning tonite with 1 hit & no walks. I'd trade LTP & Reed for him.

We start talking about Randy Johnson... he goes out and throws a perfect game...

We start talking about Sheets and he follows up his 18K performance with a near perfect game.


Anyone think we should put a package together to try to get Jon Garland? :)

SEALgep
06-09-2004, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
We start talking about Randy Johnson... he goes out and throws a perfect game...

We start talking about Sheets and he follows up his 18K performance with a near perfect game.


Anyone think we should put a package together to try to get Jon Garland? :) And Koch, we should REALLY REALLY try to get Koch. (crosses fingers). :D:

TDog
06-09-2004, 11:19 AM
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this elsewhere or even noticed this, but in the last two nights, at least two pitchers have made their first major league starts. The Mariners got six shutout innings out of their guy against the Astros Monday and the Sox lit up the Phillies' guy Tuesday. It seems a bit unusual for June -- more like something you more often see in April or September. Maybe there's a bigger trend here.

Randar68
06-09-2004, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by TDog
Maybe there's a bigger trend here.

Bingo. The trend is: Major League Pitching is shallow and spread thin.

Almost every team is 1-3 starters short of a full rotation and there are only really 6-8 legit closers in the game.

Hangar18
06-09-2004, 02:24 PM
I keep hearing on the Radio that Felix Diaz is going to Get another SHOT to PITCH on Saturday. If thats the CASE, Im hoping someone, ANYONE can show the SOX and DIAZ some File Footage of his previous Starts .............. HIS MECHANICS ARE SUCH THAT HE WAS "FALLING" to the LEFT of the mound, thus
Straightening out his pitches and he was Getting Lit Up.
If he was a member of the Other Team, a certain morning announcer wouldve been Spending 2 hrs daily on his mechanics, BAITING callers to talk about his mechanics, alternately praising callers for noting its his mechanics, then having Engineers and Physicians as guest to talk about Mechanics. Oooh, sorry,
got off track there Heh heh .

lowesox
06-09-2004, 04:54 PM
I just hope that if Munoz is the guy, that they stick with him for a reasonable amount of time. I think it's a bad idea to give minor leaguers the idea that if they fail once they'll be on the next bus back to charlotte.

I actually think that if they had stuck with Diaz, he would have come around slowly. Same thing with Rauch (although, yes, his situation was different.)

The Cheat
06-09-2004, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
I just hope that if Munoz is the guy, that they stick with him for a reasonable amount of time. I think it's a bad idea to give minor leaguers the idea that if they fail once they'll be on the next bus back to charlotte.

I actually think that if they had stuck with Diaz, he would have come around slowly. Same thing with Rauch (although, yes, his situation was different.)

I don't know why, but this time I have more faith that they will stick by a guy, actually give him a chance. Maybe its just blind faith...

But more than likely it has to do with there being a light at the end of the tunnel. I can see a REAL 5th stater(or better) on the horizon)

Munoz should get 4 starts prior to around july 1, at which point KW will have likely pulled a deal. If no deal is made by then, he only needs to make one more before the ASB. That will give KW a full two more weeks to try and get something done, before the 5th spot is needed again.

batmanZoSo
06-09-2004, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Lil Arnie has a Zito type killer curve, as well as a deceptive fastball and a decent change, but he has just recently been converted to a starter, and has had fatigue issues in the past, I doubt he will be asked to go much more than three innings.

Or that he'll make it three innings...

misty60481
06-10-2004, 04:43 PM
Size should have nothing to do with endurance of any in shape athlete
Billy Pierce 5' 10 ? more like 5' 8 averaged 230 innings a year for 10 straight years and I bet he never weighted more that 155
Whitey Ford 5' 10?? more like 5' 8 averaged over 225 innings a year for v13 straight also was lucky to be 165 # there were
lot of small pitchers in 50s & 60s who were real work horses

hose
06-10-2004, 06:21 PM
Bobby Shantz was 5'6 142 lbs. he went 18-7 then 24-10 for the Philadelphia A's in the 50's

batmanZoSo
06-10-2004, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by misty60481
Size should have nothing to do with endurance of any in shape athlete
Billy Pierce 5' 10 ? more like 5' 8 averaged 230 innings a year for 10 straight years and I bet he never weighted more that 155
Whitey Ford 5' 10?? more like 5' 8 averaged over 225 innings a year for v13 straight also was lucky to be 165 # there were
lot of small pitchers in 50s & 60s who were real work horses

Pedro, Hudson and Oswalt are all relatively small guys. I read somewhere the ideal pitcher size is somewhere around 6'3" 200. Or 6'2". Being a certain size in any sport just helps your chances somewhat, it's certainly not required for success or even greatness. See Allen Iverson, Paul Kariya, and our own Willie Harris! :smile:

sas1974
06-10-2004, 06:39 PM
You guys can add little Billy Wagner w/ the BIG 100mph fastball to that list, although I suppose that doesn't really speak to the endurance factor.

owensmouth
06-10-2004, 06:39 PM
When Pierce, Ford and Schantz were pitching, the guys that they were throwing to were mostly in the 5' 8" to six foot range. Now guys that would've been the 1st basemen then are the shortstops now.

But a pitchers height isn't the determining factor to how well he throws, as we were once again shown by the big drink of water.

I just hope Munoz gets a legitimate chance. If he's up against the other team's ace, and the Sox offense scores a resounding one run, that's not legitimate. Rookies do not start out by winning 20 games.

jeremyb1
06-10-2004, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by owensmouth
When Pierce, Ford and Schantz were pitching, the guys that they were throwing to were mostly in the 5' 8" to six foot range. Now guys that would've been the 1st basemen then are the shortstops now.

Well these days there are guys like Oswalt and Wagner that aren't so huge.

batmanZoSo
06-10-2004, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by owensmouth


But a pitchers height isn't the determining factor to how well he throws, as we were once again shown by the big drink of water.


The taller you are (longer the arm), the less room for error you have. Pitchers 5'11" to 6'1" probably have the biggest advantage because they're big enough, but can have that compact delivery that allows for a quicker development of command and control, etc.

A. Cavatica
06-10-2004, 09:25 PM
Rainout today...Sox don't need the #5 for a while longer.

jabrch
06-10-2004, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
Rainout today...Sox don't need the #5 for a while longer.

There is a god in heaven - and he rained upon us with glee - that goes to show you that the lord himself is a Sox fan!