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jeremyb1
06-07-2004, 07:26 PM
So what are everyone's thoughts on the first day of the draft? I'll be the first to admit I don't tend to have the best grasp on the talent. However, from what I can tell this draft looks a ton like earlier Shaeffer drafts: a ton of raw pitchers. Most of the guys we took don't seem to have great stats and seem to rely on projectibility. Obviously coming from a performance framework that doesn't excite me all that much. These guys seem to fit into the Wyatt Allen, Danny Wright, Brian West mold with Wright being the biggest success story in the past. The problem with me seems that once you refind these pitchers' mechanics and add movement to their pitches they tend to lose the velocity that made them intruiging in the first place. Fields looks like a solid pick but otherwise I'm somewhat dissapointed based on my limited knowledge.

OEO Magglio
06-07-2004, 07:49 PM
This is the guy that the sox drafted in the compensatory round with their 2nd pick of that round. The guy has a nasty curveball and a pretty good fastball. He's only 19 and as he fills out more he could gain some velocity with his heater. I was really impressed from the clip of him I saw on mlb.com Anyway my question is for randar or anyone else who might know what are the chances the sox sign this guy?? He's supposed to be a very tough sign and I'm wondering if there is a good shot the sox sign him.

maurice
06-07-2004, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
once you refind these pitchers' mechanics and add movement to their pitches they tend to lose the velocity that made them intruiging in the first place.

I don't know about that. Improved mechanics should make a pitcher throw harder, not softer. Either way, life on the FB, command, and good secondary pitches are far more important than a couple of MPH.

Wright's velocity dropped, but it appears in hindsight that it was a result of a badly injured throwing arm and a switch away from his 4-seam FB. Perhaps better mechanics would have kept him healthy. Allen's problem appears to involve his control more than his "stuff."

I'm on record as favoring proven college players high in the draft and projectable HS and college guys thereafter. As such, I really can't complain about the last two drafts.

jeremyb1
06-07-2004, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I don't know about that. Improved mechanics should make a pitcher throw harder, not softer. Either way, life on the FB, command, and good secondary pitches are far more important than a couple of MPH.

Wright's velocity dropped, but it appears in hindsight that it was a result of a badly injured throwing arm and a switch away from his 4-seam FB. Perhaps better mechanics would have kept him healthy. Allen's problem appears to involve his control more than his "stuff."

I'm on record as favoring proven college players high in the draft and projectable HS and college guys thereafter. As such, I really can't complain about the last two drafts.

Well yeah I think it's more that these guys lose velocity in switching from a four seem fastball to a fastball with more movement. However, sometimes to throw with more control you might need to stop thowing so hard. With regard to Wright, I'm doubtful he was injured in '02 and he supposedly hit 98 in college. Guys like Allen and West better demonstrate that even though our organization supposedly excells at harnessing raw pitchers, it's exceedingly difficult to turn a 21, 22 year old or even a high school pitcher into a polished pitcher if his strength is a powerful, raw arm.

Randar68
06-07-2004, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I don't know about that. Improved mechanics should make a pitcher throw harder, not softer. Either way, life on the FB, command, and good secondary pitches are far more important than a couple of MPH.

Wright's velocity dropped, but it appears in hindsight that it was a result of a badly injured throwing arm and a switch away from his 4-seam FB. Perhaps better mechanics would have kept him healthy. Allen's problem appears to involve his control more than his "stuff."

I'm on record as favoring proven college players high in the draft and projectable HS and college guys thereafter. As such, I really can't complain about the last two drafts.

Well, IMO we drafted the second best "sure thing" college hitter, and got a bunch of projectable arms. Jeremy is right in thinking a lot of their picks are just missing something, but that's what you're going to get 2nd round and lower, otherwise you're a lot more likely to get a guy that just can't get AAA or MLB players out.


I am a little disappointed they didn't take Jaramillo or Suzuki (or Syzmanski), but we don't know what went on behind the scenes and Lucy is probably the second best defensive catcher with good polish behind the plate, he's sure to stay there, something that isn't 100% sure with Suzuki.

Lucy's only had 1 year of full-time college ball, so he could be a real sleeper. I do like the Gonzalez pick. Relative risk, high reward pick. More signable than some are recognizing...

Randar68
06-07-2004, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
However, sometimes to throw with more control you might need to stop thowing so hard.

Ahhh, where the scouts earn their money. Most of the pitchers are real projectable and most are not max-effort pitchers. i've seen several high picks that will gain velocity when they fill out, use their legs better, or refine their mechanics a bit. I didn't see many early pitching picks from the Sox of guys with straight fastballs, most guys have good movement...

Rex Hudler
06-07-2004, 08:38 PM
I can't say anything specifically about this particular player, but I can say the Sox have been pretty good about signing the players they draft. There have been a few get away, but for the most part, they are pretty solid in that area.

maurice
06-07-2004, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
sometimes to throw with more control you might need to stop thowing so hard.

Which is fine. For example, ELo can throw 95, but he rarely tries. Instead, he works his 2-seamer and cutter in and out with very good command and changes speeds. Koch (and other hard-throwing but ineffective pitchers) has zero command, throws a 95+ MPH FB wherever it feels like going, and bounces breaking balls. That's pretty damn effective at lower levels, but gets you killed in MLB. Koch is much more effective on those all-too-rare occassions when he throws 92 and is able to spot his FB on the outside corner.

it's exceedingly difficult to turn a 21, 22 year old or even a high school pitcher into a polished pitcher if his strength is a powerful, raw arm.

Sure, especially when you take injuries into account, but the best college pitchers go very quickly. One potentially viable alternative is to draft a large number of raw pitchers in the later rounds of a draft, coach them well, and see if two or three shake out. MLB isn't the NFL. Two quality MLB starters is a pretty good return on a single draft class.

CWSGuy406
06-07-2004, 08:42 PM
I, like Randar, really like the Gonzalez (sp?) pick. His hook is awesome, I think some even think the best in the draft. I was mad when Howell was taken off the board so friggin' early in the compensation A round, but Gio looks like a good pick. If he stays healthy and can develop his changeup, I think he is going to be a very, very good pitcher.

Randar68
06-07-2004, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
He's supposed to be a very tough sign and I'm wondering if there is a good shot the sox sign him.

From what I can tell, that is bull. Sox will sign him. he scares me a little with the max-effort and his arm-angle on his curve (throws across more than I like too), but he has a very high ceiling. Let's keep these in one thread, in the Post-Draft-Day 1 thread...

MODS? can we move this thread?

maurice
06-07-2004, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I'm on record as favoring proven college players high in the draft and projectable HS and college guys thereafter. As such, I really can't complain about the last two drafts.

Originally posted by Randar68
IMO we drafted the second best "sure thing" college hitter, and got a bunch of projectable arms.

Right. It looks like the last few drafts have produced quality college hitters at the top (Reed, Anderson, Fields) and a bunch of projectible guys that will take a few years to develop. Given our consistently low draft position, I'm perfectly happy with that result.

Randar68
06-07-2004, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Right. It looks like the last few drafts have produced quality college hitters at the top (Reed, Anderson, Fields) and a bunch of projectible guys that will take a few years to develop. Given our consistently low draft position, I'm perfectly happy with that result.

Yep, never really having top 10 or 15 picks hurts in preventing you from getting one of those sure-fire top of the rotation players or All-Star position player...

You can get a lot of role-players or unspectacular MLB regulars by not taking many chances, but it's a low-reward proposition, IMO...

maurice
06-07-2004, 09:00 PM
. . . what does this draft mean for some of the guys the Sox have at Winston-Salem, Kanny, and extended Spring Training? Tim Tisch already has been released, despite his success in rookie ball last season. If the Sox assign Fields to W-S, as rumored, I guess Gonzalez and Lopez will get shifted around the IF again.

I haven't been able to keep track of last year's rookie ball players who aren't on one of the A-ball rosters. Which of the following players are still with the organization?

C- Deuchler
IF - Ramirez, Luna
RHP - Nachreiner, Suarez, Moviel, Garza, Russ, Reed
LHP - Marshall, Surratt, Thompson

MRKARNO
06-07-2004, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by CWSGuy406
I, like Randar, really like the Gonzalez (sp?) pick. His hook is awesome, I think some even think the best in the draft.

Am I right in saying it's a much tighter curveball than a Zito or Duchscherer Curveball or was I not watching that scouting video well enough?

CWSGuy406
06-07-2004, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Am I right in saying it's a much tighter curveball than a Zito or Duchscherer Curveball or was I not watching that scouting video well enough?

Yeah, It's a very tight curveball, quick break, tight spin, etc. IIRC he threw the hook for balls and strikes, too. His backdoor curve to that one kid was nasty, I was shaking my head at my seat...

DSpivack
06-07-2004, 09:42 PM
Sox drafted Ray[mond] Liotta!

CanOfCorn
06-07-2004, 09:44 PM
Small world.

Covering the Missouri HS championships a couple days ago, I talked to Lucas Harrell after his team won its class final. Now he's the Sox's fourth-round draft pick.

OEO Magglio
06-07-2004, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
From what I can tell, that is bull. Sox will sign him. he scares me a little with the max-effort and his arm-angle on his curve (throws across more than I like too), but he has a very high ceiling. Let's keep these in one thread, in the Post-Draft-Day 1 thread...

MODS? can we move this thread?
Sorry didn't even see that thread. Thanks randar that's just what I heard and I was wondering because he looked pretty impressive in that clip.

gosox41
06-07-2004, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
So what are everyone's thoughts on the first day of the draft? I'll be the first to admit I don't tend to have the best grasp on the talent. However, from what I can tell this draft looks a ton like earlier Shaeffer drafts: a ton of raw pitchers. Most of the guys we took don't seem to have great stats and seem to rely on projectibility. Obviously coming from a performance framework that doesn't excite me all that much. These guys seem to fit into the Wyatt Allen, Danny Wright, Brian West mold with Wright being the biggest success story in the past. The problem with me seems that once you refind these pitchers' mechanics and add movement to their pitches they tend to lose the velocity that made them intruiging in the first place. Fields looks like a solid pick but otherwise I'm somewhat dissapointed based on my limited knowledge.


I haven't seen a full list of today's draft picks, but I still stand by my theory of the White Sox not wasting time or money on drafting pitching earlier. The first 5 rounds they should have drafted nothing but hitting since that is what they do the best job of developing. After that go craxy on all the pitching you want. But I think the stakes are too high to see an early draft pick wasted on a pitcher unless the kid is a can't miss.

If this were a different team that has had success drafting pitcher's in early rounds I'd have a different tune. But the fact is Kip Wells is the only pitcher to draft drafted within the last 7 years that has had a positive impact at the major league level. Buehrle was a 38th round pick.

I would stick with drafting college pitchers in the mid to late rounds. KW does have a good knack for identifying good pitching in trades from other teams but not drafting it.

But what do I know, I've bee watching the same team not find an adequate 5th starter for the last 3 seasons after seeing many overhyoped prospects fizzle out for one reason or another.


Bob

Bob

CanOfCorn
06-07-2004, 10:17 PM
I didn't see Harrell pitch, but he went 6-for-7 on the weekend with a homer and two doubles.

Strange kid. Talked into his batting helmet while he was going up to the plate. Looked like he was faking a limp after the game. Seemed to have a cocky streak on the field, but didn't carry it with him when I interviewed him. He'll probably get drilled a few times in rookie ball.

Randar68
06-07-2004, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by CanOfCorn
I didn't see Harrell pitch, but he went 6-for-7 on the weekend with a homer and two doubles.

Strange kid. Talked into his batting helmet while he was going up to the plate. Looked like he was faking a limp after the game. Seemed to have a cocky streak on the field, but didn't carry it with him when I interviewed him. He'll probably get drilled a few times in rookie ball.

He's headed to a JuCo, so the Sox will treat him as a Draft and Follow and let him pitch a season at JuCO, free of charge, ;-)

A. Cavatica
06-07-2004, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by DSpivack
Sox drafted Ray[mond] Liotta!

Interesting pick. I hope he's over the Christmas thing.

Randar68
06-07-2004, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I haven't seen a full list of today's draft picks, but I still stand by my theory of the White Sox not wasting time or money on drafting pitching earlier. The first 5 rounds they should have drafted nothing but hitting since that is what they do the best job of developing. After that go craxy on all the pitching you want. But I think the stakes are too high to see an early draft pick wasted on a pitcher unless the kid is a can't miss.

If this were a different team that has had success drafting pitcher's in early rounds I'd have a different tune. But the fact is Kip Wells is the only pitcher to draft drafted within the last 7 years that has had a positive impact at the major league level. Buehrle was a 38th round pick.

I would stick with drafting college pitchers in the mid to late rounds. KW does have a good knack for identifying good pitching in trades from other teams but not drafting it.

But what do I know, I've bee watching the same team not find an adequate 5th starter for the last 3 seasons after seeing many overhyoped prospects fizzle out for one reason or another.



Jesus F'in Christ! Why do you wake up in the morning, Bob? Why do you type on a message board so fervently about something you are obviously less than clueless about? Why piss on the parade? Why live at all, Bob?

Get a F'in clue and stick a sock in it. Man, can you bring less content and more whining and bitching about something you wish you could even claim to be ignorant about? That would be an improvement.

gosox41
06-07-2004, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Jesus F'in Christ! Why do you wake up in the morning, Bob? Why do you type on a message board so fervently about something you are obviously less than clueless about? Why piss on the parade? Why live at all, Bob?

Get a F'in clue and stick a sock in it. Man, can you bring less content and more whining and bitching about something you wish you could even claim to be ignorant about? That would be an improvement.


ROFLMAO.

Are you sure you're not KW?

If I remember correctly you came here within the last year or year and a half. I've only been around since the end of '02. Too bad I don't have any of your old scouting reports to read over the last 5-6 years to see how accurate you were.


Bob

Daver
06-07-2004, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
ROFLMAO.

Are you sure you're not KW?

If I remember correctly you came here within the last year or year and a half. I've only been around since the end of '02. Too bad I don't have any of your old scouting reports to read over the last 5-6 years to see how accurate you were.


Bob

Randar has been a member here since the Rivals days, he predates me.

Randar68
06-07-2004, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
ROFLMAO.

Are you sure you're not KW?

If I remember correctly you came here within the last year or year and a half. I've only been around since the end of '02. Too bad I don't have any of your old scouting reports to read over the last 5-6 years to see how accurate you were.


Bob

You can look back for the threads of the past 3 drafts, pal. I have been a contributor to futuresox.com, soxnet.net, and this site about prospects, drafts, etc.

You're the clueless idiot who is rating last year's draft and the one before because you don't see anyone contributing on the MLB level. Easily one of the dumbest and most ignorant posts on this site.

You're quickly turning yourself into the village idiot, so keep posting all you wish and keep digging that hole, buddy.

:prozac

Randar68
06-07-2004, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Randar has been a member here since the Rivals days, he predates me.

i go back to the ESPN boards to at least the 1998/1999 time frame with a handful of guys around here like voodoo(JustJim, IIRC), moochpuppy, FWC, the Sox Army, and several others. I have followed and reported on guys like Crede, Rowand, Garland, Kip, Rauch, Buehrle, Barcelo, ect while they were in AA or earlier. I called the Borchard, Honel and now Fields first round picks before anyone else.

Thanks for the comment Daver, but there really is no reason for either of us to respond to the ass-clown. He discredits himself without having to say a thing in response, really.

Hondo
06-07-2004, 10:47 PM
Randar may be a bit touchy (no offense) but he knows his stuff. Read through today's Draft thread and you'll see. He had instant info and analysis on every pick and those of other teams.
He's one of the first guys I'll go to if I have a question regarding anything in the Minors.

StepsInSC
06-07-2004, 10:48 PM
In Lumsden we got a left and a right handed pitcher...he's throws 90+ left handed and 80+ right handed.

Its only a gimmick, but damn thats still cool.

Randar68
06-07-2004, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
In Lumsden we got a left and a right handed pitcher...he's throws 90+ left handed and 80+ right handed.

Its only a gimmick, but damn thats still cool.

IIRC, the rule is very interesting. A switch-hitter can switch sides of the plate during an AB, but a switch-pitcher switching hands is ruled a pitching change IIRC. tHey can't go back to the other hand, IIRC.

Funny quirk of a rule. There have been a handful of pitchers to be able to do this, but I don't know if anyone has done it at the MLB level and if so, as anything more than a gimmick.

Hondo
06-07-2004, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
IIRC, the rule is very interesting. A switch-hitter can switch sides of the plate during an AB, but a switch-pitcher switching hands is ruled a pitching change IIRC. tHey can't go back to the other hand, IIRC.

Funny quirk of a rule. There have been a handful of pitchers to be able to do this, but I don't know if anyone has done it at the MLB level and if so, as anything more than a gimmick.

Let me see if I understand this. So let's say Lumsden has two outs pitching right handed and a lefty is coming up. He could face him throwing lefty then he could come out the next inning? So in a far off fantasy land he could be his own lefty specialist?

Randar68
06-07-2004, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
In Lumsden we got a left and a right handed pitcher...he's throws 90+ left handed and 80+ right handed.

Its only a gimmick, but damn thats still cool.

I like Lumsden, and had actually heard or seen one projection that had him being picked by the Sox at #18, so be glad Fields fell to us because Lumsden isn't worthy of a true first-round pick, he just doesn't have the polish or clear-cut out pitch. Hopefully the Sox instructional staff can work on his change with him and fine-tune his mechanics to try to milk a little better consistency out of him.

Randar68
06-07-2004, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by Hondo
Let me see if I understand this. So let's say Lumsden has two outs pitching right handed and a lefty is coming up. He could face him throwing lefty then he could come out the next inning? So in a far off fantasy land he could be his own lefty specialist?

the way understand it, yes, but he would have to come back out lefty and not switch back to RH... but i'm not 100% on the details, it's not something that comes up very often!

:D:

Hondo
06-07-2004, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
the way understand it, yes, but he would have to come back out lefty and not switch back to RH... but i'm not 100% on the details, it's not something that comes up very often!

:D:

No you're right but just the fact that it might happen is enough for me. lol.

What about the kid from Miami? Gonzalez? From what I've read I like that pick. Some issues kept him out a season but I like what I've read.

Randar68
06-07-2004, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by Hondo
No you're right but just the fact that it might happen is enough for me. lol.

What about the kid from Miami? Gonzalez? From what I've read I like that pick. Some issues kept him out a season but I like what I've read.

yep. He transferred, along with his brother, under some unwritten promises and deals, this past year. His mother confronted the coach about his brother's playing time and IIRC he took a few practices off or missed a game or something along those lines trying to deal with the issue. The coach booted he and his brother from the team. Bizarre situation, but one that also apparently happened similarly at his previous HS...

Must be a close family, but very wierd. He is committed to Miami (FL), but supposedly wants to sign.

Fungo
06-07-2004, 11:17 PM
Nice job by all in this thread and in the "Official" draft thread. Some very good opinions and information in both. After looking over the picks and reading the write-up on each player I am beginning to like it even more. I really like our first 3 picks with Gonzalez being a real steal. I don't think he will be that tough a sign and I 'd like to hear your reasoning, Randar, as to why you feel the same. IIRC, earlier in the thread you mentioned h may not be as tough a sign as originally thought. I get the same feeling after reading the blogs on mlb.com, BA, etc. He just doesn't seem like a kid that wants to go to school. I think he wants to play baseball, simple as that. He and his agent will use school as a bargaining chip obviously, but in the end it is a bluff, as I just don't get the feeling he's the school type. Just my opinion, of course. There must be something behind the scenes with Jamarillo and Suzuki, but Lucy may surprise. I was down on Whisler earlier, but he has a fresh arm and can now soley concentrate on pitching. A couple other arms later may come in handy down the road namely, Nick Lemon and Garry Bakker. Lemon being one of the hardest throwers in the entire draft and Bakker being rated as the second closest to the majors by at least one publication.

Randar68
06-07-2004, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by Fungo
Nice job by all in this thread and in the "Official" draft thread. Some very good opinions and information in both. After looking over the picks and reading the write-up on each player I am beginning to like it even more. I really like our first 3 picks with Gonzalez being a real steal. I don't think he will be that tough a sign and I 'd like to hear your reasoning, Randar, as to why you feel the same. IIRC, earlier in the thread you mentioned h may not be as tough a sign as originally thought. I get the same feeling after reading the blogs on mlb.com, BA, etc. He just doesn't seem like a kid that wants to go to school. I think he wants to play baseball, simple as that. He and his agent will use school as a bargaining chip obviously, but in the end it is a bluff, as I just don't get the feeling he's the school type. Just my opinion, of course. There must be something behind the scenes with Jamarillo and Suzuki, but Lucy may surprise. I was down on Whisler earlier, but he has a fresh arm and can now soley concentrate on pitching. A couple other arms later may come in handy down the road namely, Nick Lemon and Garry Bakker. Lemon being one of the hardest throwers in the entire draft and Bakker being rated as the second closest to the majors by at least one publication.

A couple things about Gonzalez;
1) Seems to want to play pro and not do the college route, going to Miami puts him 3 more years from being drafted and possible $$$. He'd have to be lights-out for a couple years in a row to beat what he could make now.

2) Sox south Florida scouting has been very good over the past 4-6 years and do their homework and do it thoroughly

3) being able to spread out Fields' bonus and overdrafting a couple guys, presumably with deals in place, they should have the money to sign at or even slightly above slot, in the 800k-1.25 million dollar range.

4) Harrell will be DFE'd, so they won't be putting that money out there in the budget until next year if he earns it...

call it a gut feel, but all signs point to being a relatively painless signing. I'm confident in the way the Sox drafted and feel they did a better job of getting value at all of their early picks when compared to a team like the Twinkies who severely overdrafted on almost every pick.

I'm interested in what others said about Bakker. Somewhat intriguing...

CanOfCorn
06-07-2004, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
IIRC, the rule is very interesting. A switch-hitter can switch sides of the plate during an AB, but a switch-pitcher switching hands is ruled a pitching change IIRC. tHey can't go back to the other hand, IIRC.

Funny quirk of a rule. There have been a handful of pitchers to be able to do this, but I don't know if anyone has done it at the MLB level and if so, as anything more than a gimmick.

Greg Harris, I believe, pitched with both hands in the same game.

A. Cavatica
06-07-2004, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by CanOfCorn
Greg Harris, I believe, pitched with both hands in the same game.

This was the Boston Greg Harris, BTW, not the San Diego one.

I think he did it in an exhibition, but I don't remember him actually doing it in the majors. I don't think it's been done.

Fungo
06-08-2004, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
I'm interested in what others said about Bakker. Somewhat intriguing...

My bad, a little misquoted, but encouraging nonetheless. Per the University of North Carolina Baseball media guide...

Pitched for the Cotuit Kettleers of the Cape Cod League for the second consecutive summer Named the No. 17 Major League Baseball prospect in the Cape Cod League by Baseball America Completed the season with a 2-0 record an a 1.76 ERA Also named No. 2 MLB prospect in the Cape's all-star game by TeamOneBaseball.com. Rated the No. 1 high school player in New York by Baseball America as a senior.

http://tarheelblue.collegesports.com/sports/m-basebl/mtt/bakker_garry00.html

MRKARNO
06-08-2004, 12:16 AM
Balker's line yesterday in a start for UNC:

ip h r er bb so
Garry Bakker 0.1 3 3 3 2 1

With a Caveat:

North Carolina coach Mike Fox, juggling a depleted pitching staff after three games in two days, took a chance starting Garry Bakker just two days after he threw 70 pitches against Coastal Carolina. The gamble failed. Bakker got just one out and was pulled with the Gamecocks leading 2-0 and the bases loaded.

Head Coach Mike Fox
(on going with Garry Bakker)
We had other options but Garry usually recovers well. We wanted to hold them off in the first couple innings and Garry was our best choice. Unfortunately it backfired on us this time.

http://www.ncaasports.com/baseball/mens/results/5290

Bakker's line in that game before?

North Carolina IP H R ER BB SO AB BF NP
--------------------------------------------------
Garry Bakker........ 4.2 8 5 4 0 3 19 22 70

chisox1388
06-08-2004, 12:49 AM
Well, I think the draft went very well, as I think Fields is gonna be a player, and if Gonzalez can overcome the myth about high school pitchers getting hurt, I think he could be an absolute stud. Think Barry Zito with a better fastball. Another pick I love is Brandon Allen. I watched a clip of this guy, he has one of the sweetest left handed swings I've seen. Here's MLB.com's take on him:

PHYSICAL SPECIMEN. BROAD SHOULDERS. STRONG, THICK, MUSCULAR, OVERALL BUILD W/ FLEX. HIGH POCKETS. BODY TYPE SIMILAR TO YOUNG, MORE ATHLETIC MO VAUGHN. WIDE, STRAIGHT AWAY STANCE. LOOKS GOOD IN BOX. COMBINATION SIZE, STRENGTH & SPEED. BIG-TIME PWR POTENTIAL. STRONG, QUICK HANDS. LOOSE, EASY ARM W/ CARRY. ALSO PLAYS RF. AVG RUNNER UNDERWAY. PHYSICAL SPECIMEN W/ UNTAPPED BASEBALL POTENTIAL. HIGH CEILING. FUTURE IMPACT, MIDDLE OF LINE-UP, RUN PRODUCING BAT.

And here's his clip:

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/draftday/y2004/tracker_lastName_A_1.html

He is the first one.

Randar68
06-08-2004, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by chisox1388
Well, I think the draft went very well, as I think Fields is gonna be a player, and if Gonzalez can overcome the myth about high school pitchers getting hurt, I think he could be an absolute stud. Think Barry Zito with a better fastball. Another pick I love is Brandon Allen. I watched a clip of this guy, he has one of the sweetest left handed swings I've seen. Here's MLB.com's take on him:

PHYSICAL SPECIMEN. BROAD SHOULDERS. STRONG, THICK, MUSCULAR, OVERALL BUILD W/ FLEX. HIGH POCKETS. BODY TYPE SIMILAR TO YOUNG, MORE ATHLETIC MO VAUGHN. WIDE, STRAIGHT AWAY STANCE. LOOKS GOOD IN BOX. COMBINATION SIZE, STRENGTH & SPEED. BIG-TIME PWR POTENTIAL. STRONG, QUICK HANDS. LOOSE, EASY ARM W/ CARRY. ALSO PLAYS RF. AVG RUNNER UNDERWAY. PHYSICAL SPECIMEN W/ UNTAPPED BASEBALL POTENTIAL. HIGH CEILING. FUTURE IMPACT, MIDDLE OF LINE-UP, RUN PRODUCING BAT.

And here's his clip:

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/draftday/y2004/tracker_lastName_A_1.html

He is the first one.

definitely seems like a high-potential pick raw but strong as an ox and undeniably athletic. Strong arm too, but pretty unpolished at the plate. looks like he can be beaten with a breaking ball and his hands are too busy when anticipating the pitch. Doesn't get great weight-transfer, either. those are all very correctable things. He just looks like a beast though, I hope they can sign him.

Liotta and Harrell with both probably be DFE's, so they may have that money available to them.


on an aside, anyone see how well Wes Hodges has been doing for Georgia Tech? He's my boy, blue! After last year's draft, I said that I think he'll be a first-round pick in the future, maybe 2nd... looking pretty good now...

chisox1388
06-08-2004, 12:56 AM
Quick question, what does DFE mean?

Randar68
06-08-2004, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by chisox1388
Quick question, what does DFE mean?

draft, follow, evaluate. It describes JuCo players or players going to a JuCo that can be signed up until a week before the next year's draft, as opposed to regular college players (or hS players committed to a major college) who can only be signed until they attend their first class at the Academic Institution they are attendinig.

CWSGuy406
06-08-2004, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
A couple things about Gonzalez;
1) Seems to want to play pro and not do the college route, going to Miami puts him 3 more years from being drafted and possible $$$. He'd have to be lights-out for a couple years in a row to beat what he could make now.

2) Sox south Florida scouting has been very good over the past 4-6 years and do their homework and do it thoroughly

3) being able to spread out Fields' bonus and overdrafting a couple guys, presumably with deals in place, they should have the money to sign at or even slightly above slot, in the 800k-1.25 million dollar range.

4) Harrell will be DFE'd, so they won't be putting that money out there in the budget until next year if he earns it...

call it a gut feel, but all signs point to being a relatively painless signing. I'm confident in the way the Sox drafted and feel they did a better job of getting value at all of their early picks when compared to a team like the Twinkies who severely overdrafted on almost every pick.

I'm interested in what others said about Bakker. Somewhat intriguing...

Forgive my stupidity - which guys that are from Southern-Florida have either already made an impact at the major league level, or are considered pretty solid prospects currently?

Chisoxfn
06-08-2004, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
You can look back for the threads of the past 3 drafts, pal. I have been a contributor to futuresox.com, soxnet.net, and this site about prospects, drafts, etc.

You're the clueless idiot who is rating last year's draft and the one before because you don't see anyone contributing on the MLB level. Easily one of the dumbest and most ignorant posts on this site.

You're quickly turning yourself into the village idiot, so keep posting all you wish and keep digging that hole, buddy.

:prozac
I'll add to that as their is no guy I respect more then Randar when it comes to knowledge of the minor leagues and draft. Him, Daver, Rex, Cerb, and a few others are all on the same list of knowledge. We all may disagree on players at times, but they all know their stuff.

By the way Randar, were you puzzled at how far Larish fell. I kept hoping he would somehow go to the Sox. The guy is a sick college hitter with a ton of power and already has a great kk/bb ratio. I realize he had a down year, but he also had an injury as well as a position move (not really much of an excuse). Still, no one had the type of sophmore year he had in a while.

I am assuming he'll now re-enter the draft next year, unless somehow the Dodgers offer him good money.

Donny Lucy is also sounding like a real good pick. Of course I was ticked they didn't get Suzuki. Watched him hit a bomb to dead center yesterday in the regional. He also had an RBI single in the game and then in the 2nd game of the regional (both Sunday games) he was a triple shy of the cycle.

Despite that, Lucy sounds like the best athlete in the draft and it could be a lucky thing that he ended up being behind Ryan Garko for a few years at Stanford.

Chisoxfn
06-08-2004, 02:29 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
IIRC, the rule is very interesting. A switch-hitter can switch sides of the plate during an AB, but a switch-pitcher switching hands is ruled a pitching change IIRC. tHey can't go back to the other hand, IIRC.

Funny quirk of a rule. There have been a handful of pitchers to be able to do this, but I don't know if anyone has done it at the MLB level and if so, as anything more than a gimmick.
I think Princeton or Yale or Harvard (one of the ivy league schools) has a guy thats pretty talented and is amedexterious.

And I think you can switch back, you just can't switch mid batter. I remember DJ saying something about this in a game this season. I guess they declared it would be way too much of an advantage for a pitcher to switch mid at bat. Personally I say if a pitcher can do it, why not let them.

Chisoxfn
06-08-2004, 02:33 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
definitely seems like a high-potential pick raw but strong as an ox and undeniably athletic. Strong arm too, but pretty unpolished at the plate. looks like he can be beaten with a breaking ball and his hands are too busy when anticipating the pitch. Doesn't get great weight-transfer, either. those are all very correctable things. He just looks like a beast though, I hope they can sign him.

Liotta and Harrell with both probably be DFE's, so they may have that money available to them.


on an aside, anyone see how well Wes Hodges has been doing for Georgia Tech? He's my boy, blue! After last year's draft, I said that I think he'll be a first-round pick in the future, maybe 2nd... looking pretty good now...
Hey Randar; I saw where Liotta didn't pitch this past year. I'm assuming thats because he was ineligible due to transferring from Tulane to a JC.

Hodges has been a stud and you called it. I remember how high you were on him.

Chisoxfn
06-08-2004, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by CWSGuy406
Forgive my stupidity - which guys that are from Southern-Florida have either already made an impact at the major league level, or are considered pretty solid prospects currently?
Valido and Nanita are two off the top of my head. I'm pretty sure Ryan Rodriguez as well.

SEALgep
06-08-2004, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn
I think Princeton or Yale or Harvard (one of the ivy league schools) has a guy thats pretty talented and is amedexterious.

And I think you can switch back, you just can't switch mid batter. I remember DJ saying something about this in a game this season. I guess they declared it would be way too much of an advantage for a pitcher to switch mid at bat. Personally I say if a pitcher can do it, why not let them. I believe you're right, I think a pitcher can switch back and forth provided it's not mid batter.

Fungo
06-08-2004, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
4) Harrell will be DFE'd, so they won't be putting that money out there in the budget until next year if he earns it...


BA tidbit...

The Whie Sox' fourth-rounder, righthander Lucas Harrell of Ozark, Mo., handed Dodgers' first-rounder Blake DeWitt his first career high school loss in the Missouri state playoffs last week. He pitched a complete game and homered off DeWitt in the second inning.

Fungo
06-08-2004, 10:33 AM
For those interested, I put together a list of links to some of the guys the Sox took on day one of the draft. Good chance to put a name with a face. Most are from their respective college media guides. Not much on the high school kids.

Josh Fields
http://www.okstate.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=1667&SPID=154&DB_OEM_ID=200&ATCLID=7537&Q_SEASON=2003

Tyler Lumsden
http://clemsontigers.collegesports.com/sports/m-basebl/mtt/lumsden_tyler00.html

Wes Whisler
http://uclabruins.collegesports.com/sports/m-basebl/mtt/whisler_wes00.html

Donny Lucy
http://gostanford.collegesports.com/sports/m-basebl/mtt/lucy_donny00.html

Matt Hansen
http://www.okcu.edu/athletics/rosdetail.aspx?id=102&c=2

Adam Russell
http://www.ohiobobcats.com/sports/baseball/bio.asp?PLAYER_ID=1821

Nick Lemon
http://www.byucougars.com/baseball/profiles/00000001882_bsb.html

Ryan McCarthy
http://uclabruins.collegesports.com/sports/m-basebl/mtt/mccarthy_ryan00.html

Adam Ricks
http://hurricanesports.collegesports.com/sports/m-basebl/mtt/ricks_adam00.html

Garry Bakker
http://tarheelblue.collegesports.com/sports/m-basebl/mtt/bakker_garry00.html

Jack Egbert
http://www.scarletknights.com/baseball/roster/bio.asp?No=9

CArlos Torres
http://www.kstatesports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=3231&SPID=222&DB_OEM_ID=400&ATCLID=31766&Q_SEASON=2003

Fernando Alvarez
http://www.fiu.edu/%7Eathletic/basehome/profiles03/alvarez.htm

mcfish
06-08-2004, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Hondo
Let me see if I understand this. So let's say Lumsden has two outs pitching right handed and a lefty is coming up. He could face him throwing lefty then he could come out the next inning? So in a far off fantasy land he could be his own lefty specialist?

Would he get his 8 warm up pitches from the left side too? I would really love to see a manager come out and make that pitching change. "This call to the mound is sponsored by ..." Would the visits to the mound reset like it does with a normal pitching change, i.e., the manager gets 1 more free visit to the mound that inning? This is some interesting stuff...

Randar68
06-08-2004, 12:14 PM
Some pre-draft notes on Sox draftees from BA:


Wes Whisler , lhp/1b

Whisler led the Pacific-10 Conference in home runs in 2002 as a freshman and was the Cape Cod League's top prospect that summer. The 6-foot-5, 227-pound Indiana high school product looked then like a candidate for the top of the first round in the 2004 draft. How things have changed. Whisler has regressed so much as a hitter that his greater worth is now on the mound--even after he went 2-4, 5.26 this season. He shows plenty of power in batting practice, but his bat speed has slowed and most of his power is to the opposite field. He hit .275-5-39 this spring. Whisler has also fallen short of expectations as a pitcher, but he has recognized that his future is on the mound. On a good day, he has been clocked at 93-94 mph with a good, hard slider. He has a four-pitch repertoire, but rarely does the sum of his stuff equal the parts. He throws everything too hard, his command is shaky and hitters have an easy time reading pitches out of his hand. Yet Whisler still has a lot of positives, in addition to being lefthanded. He has a big frame and above-average arm strength, and he's never been hurt. Scouts know the talent is there and are banking that he'll do better as a pro, once he can concentrate on one role. He projects as a third- to fifth-rounder.




Donny Lucy, c

Lucy bided his time for two years at Stanford, waiting for his chance to supplant Ryan Garko as the everyday catcher. At 6-foot-3 and 205 pounds, he's always looked the part of a high-round draft pick and he made the most of his opportunity this spring, upgrading his game in all areas. In addition to athletic ability, he brought a lot of energy to the position, while making big strides at the plate. He showed flashes of power while laying off breaking pitches out of the strike zone better than he has in the past. He was a main cog in Stanford's record-breaking offense, hitting .314 with 11 homers. He has always run well for a catcher and brings a lot of intangibles to the table.


Adam Russell , rhp

The 6-foot-8, 250-pound Russell is an intimidating presence on the mound. His fastball also can be intimidating when it reaches 95 mph with electric life in the zone, and he works with a free, easy motion. He hasn't had success at the college level because he doesn't throw a quality breaking pitch for strikes consistently. In the absence of injured righthander Marc Cornell, Ohio's ace a year ago, Russell was expected to provide more than a 1-3, 4.75 record this year. Because of his ceiling, he should be drafted in the first three or four rounds.

Another versatile possible mid-round draft is Miami senior Adam Ricks , who has played second base and some shortstop for the Hurricanes but whose tools profile best at catcher. Miami (and Sacramento City CC before it) has given him a few innings there so scouts can see him catch and throw. He's a lefthanded hitter that makes contact consistently.

One player who is not under control and will be drafted is LHP Ray Liotta , who transferred to Gulf Coast CC from Tulane. He's a strong-bodied lefty with a fastball in the 88-92 mph range, though it tends to straighten out. Liotta's inconsistent breaking ball and changeup, as well as lack of deception in his delivery, makes him more hittable than smaller, live-armed counterparts such as LHP Jonny Venters and RHP Nick Tisone.

After pitching a total of 38 innings in his first two seasons, in part because he had biceps tendinitis as a sophomore, [Grant] Hansen has put up gaudy numbers for an Oklahoma City team with one of the gaudiest records in college baseball. He was 12-0, 2.55 with 93 strikeouts in 81 innings for the Stars, who were 70-5 and entered the NAIA World Series as the No. 1 seed. Hansen threw well for scouts in March, then tailed off a little bit before rebounding. At his best, he throws 90-94 mph and shows a knuckle-curve that drops off the table. At other times, he sits at 88-91 with a more ordinary breaking ball. Hansen has a classic pitching build at 6-foot-6 and 215 pounds. His delivery is clean and there aren't many miles on his arm. He could be a fourth- or fifth-rounder for a club that saw one of his better outings.

RHP Lucas Harrell should be the third Missouri high school player drafted, in part because he plans on attending junior college and not a four-year school. He relies almost exclusively on his fastball, which sits at 90-93 mph.

[Brandon] Allen (rated 85th overall in draft by BA) had Division I-A football potential as a linebacker, but his ability to punish a baseball is more impressive than his ability to punish ballcarriers. There's a lot of raw lefthander power packed in his 6-foot-1, 225-pound frame, which reminds one scout of a smaller version of Phillies minor league slugger Ryan Howard. The question is how well Allen can tap into it. He actually performed better with wood bats last summer than he has with aluminum this spring, when he hit .329 with just two homers. His ability to make contact is an issue, though his supporters believe he'll improve once he devotes himself to baseball full time. A University of Houston recruit, Allen is a very good athlete for his size. He's a solid average runner who plays a competent left field. With teams desperately seeking position players in the 2004 draft, Allen could have been a first-round pick with a strong season. Instead, he'll have to settle for the second or third round.

Lanky LHP Tim Murphey has an excellent pitcher's frame at 6-foot-3, 165 pounds, and he's wiry strong. His loose arm helps him blow hitters away with an 89-92 mph fastball that has touched 94. He's not a strong student and is considered signable, though he's raw and needs work on his secondary stuff.

[Nick] Lemon may be Nuke LaLoosh (of "Bull Durham" fame) brought to life. He has a live arm and one of the best fastballs in the country, with a fastball clocked as high as 98 mph this spring. The trouble is he doesn't know where the pitch is going most of the time. In 37 innings, he walked 50, hit eight batters and served up 19 wild pitches. Hitters feared him--with good reason--and that helped make him unhittable, with a .214 opponent average and no home runs. At 6-foot-4 and 205 pounds, he looks like a big leaguer, but he's a 22-year-old with a limited pitching background and a long medical record. He rarely pitched in high school or at Cosumnes River (Calif.) JC before going on a Mormon mission. Scouts naturally became intrigued with his arm strength but said he might be too risky to draft in the first five rounds. His situation is not unlike that of Bill Bene, a 1988 Dodgers first-round pick who threw nearly 100 mph but ended up going 18-34 and walking 543 in 516 innings in a 10-year minor league career.

SS Ryan McCarthy's stock has been on the rise all spring. A lifetime .261 hitter at UCLA, he bumped his average over .300 this year while leading the Bruins with 13 home runs and 42 RBIs. McCarthy reminds some scouts of former Long Beach State star Chris Gomez. He is a steady, reliable infielder with average tools and makes all the routine plays. He committed just five errors this spring--an impressive feat for a college shortstop.


With DeBondt attracting early-round interest at Bakersfield, scouts got more reason to check out RHPs Wayne Foltin and Jacob Wild . Neither was drafted a year ago, though both were clocked at 92-93 mph this spring. Wild, a freshman, is relatively new to pitching after making only three appearances in high school, where most of his energy went to playing point guard on the basketball team and wide receiver on the football team. He was used as a closer at the start of the year but worked his way into a starting role

RHP Garry Bakker has been in North Carolina's rotation for three years and has made strides but lacks a true strikeout pitch. He has average stuff across the board, a good 6-foot-3, 190-pound frame and has pitched well against wood bats in the Cape.

RHP Jack Egbert has a good pitcher's body and feel for an above-average changeup. He throws his fastball in the 86-91 mph range, and his slider needs work.

A San Jose State transfer who's at his fourth school in four years, Carlos Torres has two average pitches in his 88-91 mph fastball and his slider. Though he was worked hard, Torres maintained his velocity late into games.

gosox41
06-08-2004, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Randar has been a member here since the Rivals days, he predates me.

Does that give him the right to insult people? Not that it matters all that much.

If I get some spare time I'll try to read through what he says about other drafts and top prospects.



Bob

gosox41
06-08-2004, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
You can look back for the threads of the past 3 drafts, pal. I have been a contributor to futuresox.com, soxnet.net, and this site about prospects, drafts, etc.

You're the clueless idiot who is rating last year's draft and the one before because you don't see anyone contributing on the MLB level. Easily one of the dumbest and most ignorant posts on this site.

You're quickly turning yourself into the village idiot, so keep posting all you wish and keep digging that hole, buddy.

:prozac



Whatever, pal.

Do you even bother to read my posts when I talk about the Sox inability to develop pitching since the organization made it a priority in 1997? Let's see 2004, 2003,....that's 7 years of high draft picks of which a good portion were spent on pitching.

Feel free to read through some of my posts. When have I ever specifically mentioned a player from the last year's draft not being in the big leagues already??

Maybe I've mentioned the last 4 drafts as a whole under the KW regime but nothing specific about last year. I'll try to spell it out for you more next time.

Funny how you keep saying I say the same thing yet you haven't even acknowkledged it. When did I ever question anyone from the last 2 drafts not being on the roster???

So feel free to insult me, and put together all the letters you can so you can have catch phrases with the 'F' word you seem to be in love with. It really enhances your argument about how well the Sox have drafted. Making it personal is the way to go!!!!

But don't put words in my mouth. When I came up with my theory of drafting no pitchers in the first 5 rounds I've based it off the White Sox lack of success the last 7 years. Go back and read the posts if you don't believe me.



Bob

gosox41
06-08-2004, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Hondo
Randar may be a bit touchy (no offense) but he knows his stuff. Read through today's Draft thread and you'll see. He had instant info and analysis on every pick and those of other teams.
He's one of the first guys I'll go to if I have a question regarding anything in the Minors.

I don't deny he knows his stuff about amateur players. But in a previous thread I brought up a point about the Sox lack of success in spending high draft picks on pitching over the last 7 years and I get sworn at and name called.

I thought it was a valid point. If something doesn't work, don't keep doing it. I mean should Billy Koch still be the Sox closer? Should the Sox keep brining up a different minor leaguer every time it's the 5th staters turn to start? It's almost like he works for the Sox and takes it personally when a pick doesn't work out. I know most picks in general don't work and all that. But I also know the Sox have had a much higher success rate drafting hitters rather then pitchers. over the last 7 years. I gave the Sox and even KW credit for that and still have to put up with swearing and name calling.


Bob

FarWestChicago
06-08-2004, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Does that give him the right to insult people? Not that it matters all that much.No it doesn't. But do you have to post the same thing over and over in every thread on the board? It is very annoying and I can see where you push people to snapping at you. That said, Randar, refrain from personally insulting this guy.

Randar68
06-08-2004, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
No it doesn't. But do you have to post the same thing over and over in every thread on the board? It is very annoying and I can see where you push people to snapping at you. That said, Randar, refrain from personally insulting this guy.

Sorry, FWC, but he's fishing for a reaction, getting it, and now has the gall to cry about it?

Sounds like classic :troll behavior to me.

FarWestChicago
06-08-2004, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Sorry, FWC, but he's fishing for a reaction, getting it, and now has the gall to cry about it?

Sounds like classic :troll behavior to me. Can't really argue with that. We can deal with trolls, though. :cool:

joecrede
06-08-2004, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
No it doesn't. But do you have to post the same thing over and over in every thread on the board? It is very annoying and I can see where you push people to snapping at you. That said, Randar, refrain from personally insulting this guy.

In truth, if you dare disagree with Randar he resorts to childish name calling and gets away with it.

Also, gosox41 isn't even close to being the biggest offender of "saying the same thing over and over in every thread" so I don't understand why he is being singled out.

Randar68
06-08-2004, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
In truth, if you dare disagree with Randar he resorts to childish name calling and gets away with it.

Also, gosox41 isn't even close to being the biggest offender of "saying the same thing over and over in every thread" so I don't understand why he is being singled out.

Because he goes from thread to thread, making up reasons to crap on KW when all he's done is give the manager(s) of this team enough talent to win the division in AT LEAST the past 2 years.

In every thread related to a prospect, or the draft, or the results of the draft, ect etc etc. Then he makes ridiculously outlandish statements like "The Sox shouldn't draft pitchers".

It's not only the repetition, but the unreasonable lack of a general understanding of the mechanics of baseball, a lack of a grasp on reality, a lack of common sense, and general lack of useful contribution to ANY discussion on this board.

When you take those things and post it nearly 3000 times in a year and half or less, it get's real, REAL old.



BTW, joecrede, how's Rowand doing? He's "fine" in the OF, right?


BLA.

FarWestChicago
06-08-2004, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Also, gosox41 isn't even close to being the biggest offender of "saying the same thing over and over in every thread" so I don't understand why he is being singled out. No, Lip is the worst. But some of the FOBB's and FOLIP's are getting close, especially your buddy you are defending. And I have called Lip out many times for being boring and repetitive. So what is your point?

joecrede
06-08-2004, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
No, Lip is the worst. But some of the FOBB's and FOLIP's are getting close, especially your buddy you are defending. And I have called Lip out many times for being boring and repetitive. So what is your point?

Point is, if it's okay or understandable for repetitive posts to draw personal attacks that's all this board should be filled with. Most regular posters on here have points that they've stated over and over, self included.

FarWestChicago
06-08-2004, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Point is, if it's okay or understandable for repetitive posts to draw personal attacks that's all this board should be filled with. Most regular posters on here have points that they've stated over and over, self included. It's a matter of degree. Some people are ridiculously obsessive. I've mentioned some of them.

joecrede
06-08-2004, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Because he goes from thread to thread, making up reasons to crap on KW when all he's done is give the manager(s) of this team enough talent to win the division in AT LEAST the past 2 years.

In every thread related to a prospect, or the draft, or the results of the draft, ect etc etc. Then he makes ridiculously outlandish statements like "The Sox shouldn't draft pitchers".

It's not only the repetition, but the unreasonable lack of a general understanding of the mechanics of baseball, a lack of a grasp on reality, a lack of common sense, and general lack of useful contribution to ANY discussion on this board.

When you take those things and post it nearly 3000 times in a year and half or less, it get's real, REAL old.



BTW, joecrede, how's Rowand doing? He's "fine" in the OF, right?


BLA.

Randar, you obviously think highly of the job Williams has done and is doing. I think he's probably somewhere in the top half of GM's in baseball.

My biggest problem with him is he's made critical mistakes managing the team's financial resources.

gosox41
06-08-2004, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Sorry, FWC, but he's fishing for a reaction, getting it, and now has the gall to cry about it?

Sounds like classic :troll behavior to me.


Just fishing for a logical (ie not insulting) reaction to my post. I truly think in the White Sox case (and maybe other teams I don't know since I haven't kept track of them as much) that it is a good idea to stick with what works best. Maybe I went a little overboard insulting KW but I still think I had a good idea.


Bob

gosox41
06-08-2004, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Because he goes from thread to thread, making up reasons to crap on KW when all he's done is give the manager(s) of this team enough talent to win the division in AT LEAST the past 2 years.

In every thread related to a prospect, or the draft, or the results of the draft, ect etc etc. Then he makes ridiculously outlandish statements like "The Sox shouldn't draft pitchers".

It's not only the repetition, but the unreasonable lack of a general understanding of the mechanics of baseball, a lack of a grasp on reality, a lack of common sense, and general lack of useful contribution to ANY discussion on this board.

When you take those things and post it nearly 3000 times in a year and half or less, it get's real, REAL old.



BTW, joecrede, how's Rowand doing? He's "fine" in the OF, right?


BLA.

Maybe I'm repetitive becaue it takes some people many times to actually read fully what I said. I said (and if you don't believe me look it up) that the Sox should not draft pitching in the first 5 rounds of the draft. I never said they should ignore pitching all together like you claim I did up there.

But I'll let it drop since I don't want to make any more points that may be misinterpreted and misunderstood. Also, I will try to use bold and different colors when making a point so that they stick out.


Bob

SEALgep
06-08-2004, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Maybe I'm repetitive becaue it takes some people many times to actually read fully what I said. I said (and if you don't believe me look it up) that the Sox should not draft pitching in the first 5 rounds of the draft. I never said they should ignore pitching all together like you claim I did up there.

But I'll let it drop since I don't want to make any more points that may be misinterpreted and misunderstood. Also, I will try to use bold and different colors when making a point so that they stick out.


Bob Fine that's what you said, but it is still is not intelligent as Randar pointed out. This was a heavy pitcher draft, with limited postion talent. We were fortunate to get a good one in Fields, but to ignore pitchers for the first five rounds, knowing all the supplemental picks we had, would have been a very poor move by the Sox. You draft pitching in a dominant pitching draft.

gosox41
06-08-2004, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Fine that's what you said, but it is still is not intelligent as Randar pointed out. This was a heavy pitcher draft, with limited postion talent. We were fortunate to get a good one in Fields, but to ignore pitchers for the first five rounds, knowing all the supplemental picks we had, would have been a very poor move by the Sox. You draft pitching in a dominant pitching draft.

First, thank you for acknowleding what I said instead of just taking quips and leaving out important factual information. You'd think with all my repetition, more people would actually be able to know what I am trying to say. Maybe the repetition is there to get a point across when someone is twisting your words, and is not at all about starting a fight. Maybe it's about trying to get an intelligent debate.

I'm married, I can pretty much start a fight anytime I want :D:


I must have missed Randar poiinting it out when I brought up this idea. Maybe I missed it between the name calling and the swearing.

But time will tell if these guys work out. The fact is it hasn't worked out too well for the Sox in the last 7 years. But I want the team to win and know full well it's going to happen with a productive farm system.


Bob

Randar68
06-08-2004, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Randar, you obviously think highly of the job Williams has done and is doing. I think he's probably somewhere in the top half of GM's in baseball.

My biggest problem with him is he's made critical mistakes managing the team's financial resources.

No, I think highly of his scouting and talent evaluation and am open-minded in giving ANYONE a chance. This is especially true when they are promoted to a position with no experience in certain critical aspects, it is understandable that there will be mistakes (see Konerko, Koch contract, Barry/Berry). It's how you learn from it, move on, improve, and become a better professional in your field.

I am willing to recognize his short-comings and have openly criticized him for his locker-room-tirades and handling of Jon Rauch. However, every REAL mistake and negative has been beaten to a bloody pulp. This is a talented first-place team built with some KEY acquisitions by Kenny, so when people stroll around hijacking threads making up reasons for criticism or setting-up unrealistic scenarios and expectations with the only real possibility lying in disappointment and more criticism, I take off on those people.

Did anyone read gosox's open whining about drafting pitching and then 'advising" KW to not draft any pitchers in the first X number of rounds and not foresee the complaining when they drafted pitching or when someone get's hurt? It's a never-ending cycle of repetition and lack of intelligence or reason, IMO.

Randar68
06-08-2004, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
But time will tell if these guys work out. The fact is it hasn't worked out too well for the Sox in the last 7 years. But I want the team to win and know full well it's going to happen with a productive farm system.

The problem with your whole argument is that it is par for the course. there is a great deal of luck inivolved in every success story, and the only way to put yourself in a position to receive somoe of that is to do your homework and draft lot's of pitchers, particularly in a pitching-heavy draft.

Not doing so is like never talking to girls for a fear of rejection, or never trying spicy food. You have to take risks to live and enjoy life, and the same is true in baseball.

You'll NEVER find your Pedro, your Randy Johnson, or your Roger Clemons, etc unless you take those chances, and that is why your "philosophy" was so absolutely preposterous to begin with.

Randar68
06-08-2004, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Maybe it's about trying to get an intelligent debate.

FYI, in order to have or expect an intelligent debate, you need to begin with an intelligent idea or argument in the first place instead of just posting "My latest Negative KW Idea". I think you may be starting to see that it isn't a very effective angle to take...

gosox41
06-08-2004, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
No, I think highly of his scouting and talent evaluation and am open-minded in giving ANYONE a chance. This is especially true when they are promoted to a position with no experience in certain critical aspects, it is understandable that there will be mistakes (see Konerko, Koch contract, Barry/Berry). It's how you learn from it, move on, improve, and become a better professional in your field.

I am willing to recognize his short-comings and have openly criticized him for his locker-room-tirades and handling of Jon Rauch. However, every REAL mistake and negative has been beaten to a bloody pulp. This is a talented first-place team built with some KEY acquisitions by Kenny, so when people stroll around hijacking threads making up reasons for criticism or setting-up unrealistic scenarios and expectations with the only real possibility lying in disappointment and more criticism, I take off on those people.

Did anyone read gosox's open whining about drafting pitching and then 'advising" KW to not draft any pitchers in the first X number of rounds and not foresee the complaining when they drafted pitching or when someone get's hurt? It's a never-ending cycle of repetition and lack of intelligence or reason, IMO.

Or did anyone not think that the Sox have done a much better job drafting hitting and should let the early picks stick with that?

If the Sox had drafted hitters with the first 5 rounds and they all flopped, do you think I would actually go and say I think the Sox should be investing in pitching in the early rounds? One of the reasons I bring up the same points (other then to not have my words twisted around) is because the team makes the same mistakes over and over again. I'm not forseeing anything. I'm just point out one of those dreaded things called 'statistics'

The chance was there for me to be wrong, but I truthfully think my idea is a good one for this team.



Bob

gosox41
06-08-2004, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
The problem with your whole argument is that it is par for the course. there is a great deal of luck inivolved in every success story, and the only way to put yourself in a position to receive somoe of that is to do your homework and draft lot's of pitchers, particularly in a pitching-heavy draft.

Not doing so is like never talking to girls for a fear of rejection, or never trying spicy food. You have to take risks to live and enjoy life, and the same is true in baseball.

You'll NEVER find your Pedro, your Randy Johnson, or your Roger Clemons, etc unless you take those chances, and that is why your "philosophy" was so absolutely preposterous to begin with.

I see your analogy, but it's hard to compare girls to drafting pitchers. What straight male hasn't been shotdown by a girl before?

But there's more invested in pitching. And your luck argument kind of supports my argument. I know there's luck involved in drafting anyone, but more so with pitching. I also know that pitchers tend to have a higher chance of getting hurt then a hitter.

From the POV of looking at a clubs resources, IMHO, it makes much more sense to sign a highly ranked yet unproven hitter to a big money contract then it does a pitcher (of course there are pitchers that are the exception to the rule and I did say originally that if such a player was available to take him). I was looking more in terms of ROI.

After the 5th round or so, the Sox should draft all the pitching they want. I certainly wouldn't advocate avoiding pitchign at all costs, but if there is that much luck involved in it when comapred to hitting then why not spend the money wisely.

For the record, Pedro was not drafted hence there was very little for the Dodgers to lose when they brought him in.

And the color red means pipedream right? Because with the White Sox I still stand by my theory about not drafting pitchers in the early rounds.



Bob

Randar68
06-08-2004, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
One of the reasons I bring up the same points (other then to not have my words twisted around) is because the team makes the same mistakes over and over again.

say it with me...

PITCHING IS AN INEXACT SCIENCE.
PITCHING PROSPECTS FAIIL MORE THAN THEY SUCCEED FOR ALL TEAMS.
THE ONLY WAY TO GET PAST IT IS TO DRAFT THEM IN NUMBERS


Originally posted by gosox41
The chance was there for me to be wrong, but I truthfully think my idea is a good one for this team.

Then therein lies part of the issue.

Randar68
06-08-2004, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I see your analogy, but it's hard to compare girls to drafting pitchers. What straight male hasn't been shotdown by a girl before?

And what baseball organization hasn't had it's share of failed pitching prospects? Don't let that stop you from whining about it though as if the Sox are the first and only team to have the problem...

joecrede
06-08-2004, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
say it with me...

PITCHING IS AN INEXACT SCIENCE.
PITCHING PROSPECTS FAIIL MORE THAN THEY SUCCEED FOR ALL TEAMS.
THE ONLY WAY TO GET PAST IT IS TO DRAFT THEM IN NUMBERS

How many pitchers are on the current White Sox staff that they drafted? Only Buehrle . . .

Randar68
06-08-2004, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
How many pitchers are on the current White Sox staff that they drafted? Only Buehrle . . .

look around baseball.

these arguments are even ignoring the fact that pitching is a hot commodity in trades, but nevermind...

joecrede
06-08-2004, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
look around baseball.

these arguments are even ignoring the fact that pitching is a hot commodity in trades, but nevermind...

Guerrier (sp?) who was traded for Marte was a 10th round pick. Karchner who was dealt for Garland was an 8th round pick of the Royals.

maurice
06-09-2004, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
What straight male hasn't been shotdown by a girl before?

<cough>

You never get shot down when you're blessed with the inate ability to speak of the pompatus of love.

Dadawg_77
06-09-2004, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
say it with me...

PITCHING IS AN INEXACT SCIENCE.
PITCHING PROSPECTS FAIIL MORE THAN THEY SUCCEED FOR ALL TEAMS.
THE ONLY WAY TO GET PAST IT IS TO DRAFT THEM IN NUMBERS




Then therein lies part of the issue.

Bob is saying draft them in numbers, just draft them when the price is cheaper in the later rounds. So the first 10 rounds draft hitters, who have a better chance at making the majors. Then draft pitchers for the next 42 rounds.

gosox41
06-09-2004, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
How many pitchers are on the current White Sox staff that they drafted? Only Buehrle . . .

Joe,

Some people keep missing my point. I know pitching is an inexact science and it further proves why the sox should sto pwasting so much time and money in it, especially in the early rounds.

When I get sometime (things at work are crazy right now) I'll go through a list of White Sox pitching prospects in the first few rounds of the draft since 1997. I'm curious as to how much money was spent to get such a low ROI and who the SOx passed up.

Like you, though maybe not to the extreme view that I take it, at least you can see that having one major league pitcher that was both drafted and developed by a team that focuses a lot of time/effort on pitching isn't something to write home about. Especially when that pitcher was a 38th round pick.

Maybe others feel the same way. I just don't like to see KW and the Sox organizaiton making the same mistakes over and over. It gets aggravating after awhile when every year this time can't find an adequate pitcher to fill the #5 spot in the rotation.


Bob

gosox41
06-09-2004, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
say it with me...

PITCHING IS AN INEXACT SCIENCE.
PITCHING PROSPECTS FAIIL MORE THAN THEY SUCCEED FOR ALL TEAMS.
THE ONLY WAY TO GET PAST IT IS TO DRAFT THEM IN NUMBERS




Then therein lies part of the issue.

Haven't the Sox done the in the 7 years, especially in the early rounds or when they have sandwich picks?


Bob

gosox41
06-09-2004, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
look around baseball.

these arguments are even ignoring the fact that pitching is a hot commodity in trades, but nevermind...

I know it is, if it's used correctly. Of course I'd hate to mention what the Sox have acquired in trades for there young pitching.


Bob

gosox41
06-09-2004, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Bob is saying draft them in numbers, just draft them when the price is cheaper in the later rounds. So the first 10 rounds draft hitters, who have a better chance at making the majors. Then draft pitchers for the next 42 rounds.


Thank you. No sense wasting money when the odds are so great thjat you won't get a positive return.


Bob

Fungo
06-11-2004, 11:26 PM
Sox announce signing of 21 of their picks from the draft...

1A Tyler Lumsden
1B Giovanny Gonzalez
2C Ray Liotta
3 Grant Hansen
4 Lucas Harrell
5 Brandon Allen
7 Tim Murphy
12 Daron Roberts
13 John Egbert
14 Michael Swain
15 Carlos Torres
16 Fernando Alvarez
19 Caleb Cooper
23 Derek McNeil
24 Joshua Hansen
30 Matthew Zaleski
34 Mario Suarez
35 Evan Tartaglia
40 Justin Roelle
48 Peter Vukovich, Jr.
49 Garrett Guest


http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_press_release.jsp?ymd=20040611&content_id=768131&vkey=pr_cws&fext=.jsp

Randar68
06-11-2004, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
No sense

Thank you for clarifying your point of view...

Randar68
06-11-2004, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by Fungo
Sox announce signing of 21 of their picks from the draft...

1A Tyler Lumsden
1B Giovanny Gonzalez
2C Ray Liotta
3 Grant Hansen
4 Lucas Harrell
5 Brandon Allen
7 Tim Murphy
12 Daron Roberts
13 John Egbert
14 Michael Swain
15 Carlos Torres
16 Fernando Alvarez
19 Caleb Cooper
23 Derek McNeil
24 Joshua Hansen
30 Matthew Zaleski
34 Mario Suarez
35 Evan Tartaglia
40 Justin Roelle
48 Peter Vukovich, Jr.
49 Garrett Guest


http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_press_release.jsp?ymd=20040611&content_id=768131&vkey=pr_cws&fext=.jsp

I'm VERY excited to see so many signed this early. This is an extremely unusual occurance to see so many signed within a week. I'm extremely pleased to see Gonzalez (as reported and I speculated) and Allen (as I speculated) sign so quickly, as they are 2 very top-notch talents and I'm glad to see them in the fold early. Add Lumsden to the list, as a college Jr., I couldn't be happier than to see him get the contract taken care of.

The two real biggest surprises for me are Harrell and Liotta, who were both believed to be DFE picks. With Fields close to signing, and hopefully Whisler, Lucy, Russell, and Ricks not far behind, it already has the makings of an extremely sucessful draft. Sign everyone in the top 10 rounds and pick and choose from there, and you are going to fill a lot of organizational holes in a short period of time.

Color me giddy...

joecrede
06-11-2004, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Color me giddy...

Not to temper your enthusiasm because it's nice to have your draft picks signed, but aside from Fields, Lumsden, Gonzalez and maybe Allen, isn't a big part of the reason the Sox drafted guys where they did because they would be easy signs?

OEO Magglio
06-12-2004, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
I'm VERY excited to see so many signed this early. This is an extremely unusual occurance to see so many signed within a week. I'm extremely pleased to see Gonzalez (as reported and I speculated) and Allen (as I speculated) sign so quickly, as they are 2 very top-notch talents and I'm glad to see them in the fold early. Add Lumsden to the list, as a college Jr., I couldn't be happier than to see him get the contract taken care of.

The two real biggest surprises for me are Harrell and Liotta, who were both believed to be DFE picks. With Fields close to signing, and hopefully Whisler, Lucy, Russell, and Ricks not far behind, it already has the makings of an extremely sucessful draft. Sign everyone in the top 10 rounds and pick and choose from there, and you are going to fill a lot of organizational holes in a short period of time.

Color me giddy...
Remember when I made that thread about how I heard Gonzalez was going to be hard to sign. :D: You know it didn't even take a week for him to sign so I guess I was right. Very glad to see this many signed so quicky though and especially Giovany.

Daver
06-12-2004, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
Not to temper your enthusiasm because it's nice to have your draft picks signed, but aside from Fields, Lumsden, Gonzalez and maybe Allen, isn't a big part of the reason the Sox drafted guys where they did because they would be easy signs?

They draft them with the hope that they are easy signs, to have it actually happen is a bonus. I can't remember the last time a team signed all ten of their first ten picks, as the Sox did last year.

Randar68
06-12-2004, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
Not to temper your enthusiasm because it's nice to have your draft picks signed, but aside from Fields, Lumsden, Gonzalez and maybe Allen, isn't a big part of the reason the Sox drafted guys where they did because they would be easy signs?

Not particularly after about the 5th round. They draft people who they think they have a chance to sign without going too far out of the slot money... EVERY team does just that, and all the signings really show that they did their homework...

Allen was rated in the mid-80's of the draft OVERALL and went in the fifth round to a team 600 miles from him and despite a letter of intent to play baseball for Houston, the Sox sign him within a WEEK!

Like I said, color me giddy. If you want to live in Lip's world, have at it, but it is an unhappy and depressing place, so keep it to yourself...

Randar68
06-12-2004, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Remember when I made that thread about how I heard Gonzalez was going to be hard to sign. :D: You know it didn't even take a week for him to sign so I guess I was right. Very glad to see this many signed so quicky though and especially Giovany.

Remember when I told you I thought you (or your "source) were way off and said he'd be an easy/quick sign???

Hold on here, I think I need Tommy John surgery after pulling something while patting myself on the back, LOL...

OEO Magglio
06-12-2004, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Remember when I told you I thought you (or your "source) were way off and said he'd be an easy/quick sign???

Hold on here, I think I need Tommy John surgery after pulling something while patting myself on the back, LOL...
LOL I know. I just heard he was going to be a tough sign and his scouting video impressed me so much I didn't want the sox to let him get away. That's why I asked the question and got your expert answer. :D: Like I said I'm just very glad they got him signed.

Fungo
06-12-2004, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
The two real biggest surprises for me are Harrell and Liotta, who were both believed to be DFE picks.

Harrell was a huge surprise to me as well as nearly every publication had him all but signed to a JuCo. Allen was another because of his football commitments, but he is a huge signing. I like the fact that the Sox are taking chances with guys that should have gone higher in the draft and fell for whatever reason and then have gotten them signed, i.e. Gonzalez and Allen this year and Sweeney from last.

If I'm not mistaken, Adam Ricks is the only Sox draftee left in the College Super Regionals for Miami. Usually around this time you can catch a couple guys that are still alive. I believe Miami plays Florida on ESPN @ 11 cst today.