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View Full Version : Forget Koch, where's the O?


LASOXFAN
06-07-2004, 11:05 AM
Koch blew a save. That's like saying "look, the sun came up again, just like it did yesterday." He's going to blow some saves. He always has, always will. His four-letter name has replaced a four-letter word that has served me well for years. But he's not the reason I'm pissed about this road trip.

The problem is at the plate.

Where the hell is the offense???

On this disastrous road trip the Sox averaged 3.2 runs per game. That's why they suck on the west coast. Not pitching.

kittle42
06-07-2004, 11:07 AM
It's getting knee rehab. :smile:

BigEdWalsh
06-07-2004, 11:09 AM
Here we go again.
Everytime Koch blows a game some of you guys have to say....yeah but the real reason we lost is.......one thing or another.
Sure it would be nice if we were scoring a few more runs. But, when we don't and we take a lead into the 9th, LET'S WIN the frickin' game!!!! :angry:

LASOXFAN
06-07-2004, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by BigEdWalsh
Here we go again.
Everytime Koch blows a game some of you guys have to say....yeah but the real reason we lost is.......one thing or another.
Sure it would be nice if we were scoring a few more runs. But, when we don't and we take a lead into the 9th, LET'S WIN the frickin' game!!!! :angry:

I'm not excusing Koch in any way, I promise you. He's a disaster waiting to happen. But 3.2 runs per game? There were a ton of opportunities missed to drive in runs.

mantis1212
06-07-2004, 11:15 AM
Offense can be hot and cold, like our is. We still have one of the top offenses in the league. There will always be days where we don't score very much.

The key to winning big is being able to win those games also, and the key to winning those games is fundamentals, small ball, pitching, and, oh yeah, A CLOSER THAN CAN GET PEOPLE OUT.

With a cold offense, the rest of the Sox did their job to win the game yesterday. Bunting, fielding, pitching. Koch wasted all that once again

DMarte708
06-07-2004, 11:19 AM
Stop transfering blame from Koch. Listen, Sox offense is in the Top 5 in most categories: including HR's, average, slugging percentage. Where's Koch on his respective list of valuable closers? Probably in the rear sucking it up with Arthur Rhodes....

What you fail to realize (LA) is the purpose offenses' is to put up enough runs to give their team the opportunity to win. TWO games on this roadtrip the Sox had the lead into the 9th, only to have Botch botch it. My understanding of the game of baseball is to outscore your opponent, whether it be 1-0 or 20-0. Hell, with your logic anytime a closer is needed the offense must of "struggled".

If you believe last nights' collapse wasn't directly Botch's fault, when is it ever? If he came into a 10-8 game for the save, and blew it, then the pitchers preceeding him would be blamed.

BigEdWalsh
06-07-2004, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
I'm not excusing Koch in any way, I promise you. He's a disaster waiting to happen.

Well, glad to hear that.
I agree the offense is slumping. With no Maggs this is a bad time for Uribe to slump. As for Crede.......insert Lurch-like moan here.
Saturday was pathetic offense-wise. Whoa man, I was cussing alot that day.
Last night, granted we didn't score alot but Gload's hit was huge. If the Sox are gonna contend, a 4-2 lead going to the bottom of the 9th shoulda been one in the W column.
We're not gonna score 6-7-8-9 runs all the time.

MRKARNO
06-07-2004, 11:22 AM
The real point is that we easily played well enough to win and we didnt. You dont always need great offense when you have the starting pitching and bullpen (outside of Koch) that we do.

LASOXFAN
06-07-2004, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by DMarte708
Stop transfering blame from Koch. Listen, Sox offense is in the Top 5 in most categories: including HR's, average, slugging percentage. Where's Koch on his respective list of valuable closers? Probably in the rear sucking it up with Arthur Rhodes....

What you fail to realize (LA) is the purpose offenses' is to put up enough runs to give their team the opportunity to win. TWO games on this roadtrip the Sox had the lead into the 9th, only to have Botch botch it. My understanding of the game of baseball is to outscore your opponent, whether it be 1-0 or 20-0. Hell, with your logic anytime a closer is needed the offense must of "struggled".

If you believe last nights' collapse wasn't directly Botch's fault, when is it ever? If he came into a 10-8 game for the save, and blew it, then the pitchers preceeding him would be blamed.

chill. you'd think i was the new president of the Billy Koch fan club. I assure you, I'm not.

My "logic" is that Koch has consistently been inconsistent for the Sox. You insert him into a game with a narrow lead and then you are SHOCKED when he blows a game. My logic asks why is this such a surprise? I agree with you, teams should be able to win one and two run games. The Sox have won a bunch this year themselves. But teams aren't always going to win those games, especially when they parade Koch out to the mound to protect the lead.

My point is that Koch's performance is typical of him and that it's overshadowing the fact that the offense went to sleep on this road trip and if you think the Sox are going to win a lot of games averaging less than 4 runs a game, then I don't know what to tell you.

MRKARNO
06-07-2004, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN

My point is that Koch's performance is typical of him and that it's overshadowing the fact that the offense went to sleep on this road trip and if you think the Sox are going to win a lot of games averaging less than 4 runs a game, then I don't know what to tell you.

Well outside of Koch, I have every reason to believe that when out 1-4 starters are going that we have a good chance to win with 3 or 4 runs. If it werent for Koch we'd have had a successful roadtrip

LASOXFAN
06-07-2004, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Well outside of Koch, I have every reason to believe that when out 1-4 starters are going that we have a good chance to win with 3 or 4 runs. If it werent for Koch we'd have had a successful roadtrip

And he knows it...

"It's embarrassing," Koch said. "I've never been more disgusted about a loss ever. This one is eating at my brain a little bit. We should have been 3-2 on this trip if it wasn't for me, instead of 1-4. I let 24 guys in this room down, I let the coaches down, I let the fans of Chicago down."

But I also agree with Loiza, who watched another victory slip away late in a game...

"If we would have had more offensive support, maybe we would have won the game," Loaiza said, pulling no punches. "I gave up two runs in 6 1/3 innings, but I can't throw shutouts every time out there."

chidonez
06-07-2004, 12:04 PM
The problem is not the hitting, although I'd like to see guys like Crede step it up. No matter how you dice it, Koch has been flakey to say the least, although the rest of the BP has been decent. You can only get lucky so many times. The other problem has been the 5th starters (0-7, 10+ ERA). We've been good so far, but with a decent 5th, and without the stupid blown saves (not to say there wouldn't be any at all), we'd have 33+ wins. Period!

jshanahanjr
06-07-2004, 12:07 PM
Loaiza acts like he isn't a team player with his comments. We know you pitched a good game, but that's your job. Just keep doing it and let Ozzie worry about the other things.

34 Inch Stick
06-07-2004, 12:08 PM
Hudson, Garcia and Moyer in three out of five games can put a damper on anyone's offense.

I hope that Loiza quote was just a heat of the moment thing. Maybe he does not remember the scrap heap the Sox pulled him off of a little over a year and a half ago. He had the reputation as being difficult to work with before he came here. I hope we are not seeing that character trait rear its ugly head because of a little success.

JRIG
06-07-2004, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
Koch blew a save. That's like saying "look, the sun came up again, just like it did yesterday." He's going to blow some saves. He always has, always will. His four-letter name has replaced a four-letter word that has served me well for years. But he's not the reason I'm pissed about this road trip.

The problem is at the plate.

Where the hell is the offense???

On this disastrous road trip the Sox averaged 3.2 runs per game. That's why they suck on the west coast. Not pitching.

Perhaps it's because Timo Perez has been playing right field instead of someone who can actually contribute like Jeremy Reed or Joe Borchard or, hell, even Ross Gload I suppose.

Just a thought...

patbooyah
06-07-2004, 12:14 PM
also keep in mind that billy, in very limited innings, allowed four of the 20 runs scored in the five games.

with billy koch included the teams averaged 4 runs a game.

without him they averaged 3.2 runs a game.

for one guy pitching about 3 innings total, thats a lot of damage.

BigEdWalsh
06-07-2004, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
And he knows it...

"It's embarrassing," Koch said. "I've never been more disgusted about a loss ever. This one is eating at my brain a little bit. We should have been 3-2 on this trip if it wasn't for me, instead of 1-4. I let 24 guys in this room down, I let the coaches down, I let the fans of Chicago down."



Ya know, there is one thing I like about Billy Koch...and it may well be the only thing I like about him...and that is he's honest. I mean in this respect he's not like Navarro for example.
He at least sucked and admitted it. Now if he would only just go away.

compy75
06-07-2004, 12:17 PM
Gload can and will help us at the plate. Ozzie played him alot and we won. A few weeks I did a study and we were like 9-2 with him in the lineup. I wonder if he got on Ozzie's nerves or something b/c Timo is getting alot of PT now. Any way at this point we need SOMETHING from our hitters after Konerko.

CubKilla
06-07-2004, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Hudson, Garcia and Moyer in three out of five games can put a damper on anyone's offense.

There's the answer to the thread topic. Good pitching beats good hitting the majority of the time.

And our pitching was definitely better in two of the games until Ozzie put Botch in.....

soxtalker
06-07-2004, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
There's the answer to the thread topic. Good pitching beats good hitting the majority of the time.

And our pitching was definitely better in two of the games until Ozzie put Botch in.....

IIRC, in the past, we've had trouble in at least a couple of areas: young pitchers just starting out in the majors (which doesn't apply to the Seattle pitchers we saw) and pitchers that rely upon off-speed and breaking balls. Is this the problem here?

ode to veeck
06-07-2004, 12:30 PM
As I pointed out in another thread this morning, the Sox got plenty of hits in the Oakland games, just couldn't do anything in the 3 extra innings in game 1 and left 20 RISP in game two. They got four runs in two of the Seattle games and should have won both games, not one of them. The two blown saves by Koch in the same week are a real problem, we need to be able to close out games. Yes, we're gonna miss Magglio for a few weeks, but the offense has been OK with out him. Cross out the two blown saves and we're 3-2, not 1-4, for the west coast last week.

A.T. Money
06-07-2004, 01:10 PM
When most teams are leading in the 9th, bringing in your closer means that the game is over!!!!! That's it! You're through!

Stop expecting this team to score 11 runs every game. You shouldn't have to score 10 or more runs just to win in this league. Sometimes, you have to win those 4-2 games.

Botch throws nothing but meatballs out there. He throws 93 mph darts with no movement, and a curveball that is barely used.

He gets touched up all the time, unless it's 15-1, and then he strikes everyone out.

Meanwhile, all Shingo does is get people out, and he's not going to be your closer? White Sox management has some serious issues. The answer is clear even to Ray Charles.

Paulwny
06-07-2004, 01:14 PM
How many runs would have been enough last night? Even a 5 run lead would have been in jeopardy. When the game ended the bases were still loaded and there was only one out.
The runs off Koch could have been endless.

SoxFan76
06-07-2004, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
Koch blew a save. That's like saying "look, the sun came up again, just like it did yesterday." He's going to blow some saves. He always has, always will. His four-letter name has replaced a four-letter word that has served me well for years. But he's not the reason I'm pissed about this road trip.

The problem is at the plate.

Where the hell is the offense???

On this disastrous road trip the Sox averaged 3.2 runs per game. That's why they suck on the west coast. Not pitching.

Regardless, that game was as good as won in the 8th inning. The Sox scored 4 runs, and held a crappy offense to 2 runs. (until the last inning, of course.) Koch is all to blame, and I've stuck with him this year. Well not anymore, I've had it. He sucks, he is not going to get any better, he had all last year, the whole off season, and this year to get his sh*t straight, and he couldn't.

mantis1212
06-07-2004, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
How many runs would have been enough last night? Even a 5 run lead would have been in jeopardy. When the game ended the bases were still loaded and there was only one out.
The runs off Koch could have been endless.

EXACTLY. Koch is lucky his ERA is as low as it is- when he blows the save he gets to stop pitching

Iwritecode
06-07-2004, 01:41 PM
When the team is ahead in the ninth inning, the offense has done it's job. Period.

It doesn't matter if the score is 2 - 1, 15 - 1 or 15 - 14...

Jerko
06-07-2004, 01:49 PM
I know the Sox offense has been weak lately, but Seattle had like 6 or 7 doubles last night and only had one run to show for it at the time. They were 2-14 (until the 9th inning of course) with RISP so they weren't any better. All that crap evens out, as do blown saves I'm sure, but the WAY that people were stealing left and right, hitting ropes, and getting walked last night is what sticks out in everybody's mind. The offense didn't "directly" lose the game last night; Koch did, and that's what people are gonna remember, and hence, bitch about. And I can't believe I just said hence either.

alohafri
06-07-2004, 03:11 PM
The fact that Ozzie keeps trotting BK out there during close games and letting him blow them just proves to me that he (Ozzie) is just another one of KW's puppets...just like Manuel. How many times did JM trot out guys who just couldn't get the job done? It got so bad that I said to Mr. Aloha at a game a couple years ago that it was time for Todd Ritchie to call in sick because he was losing so many games for us. Then to my total amazement, TR DID "call in sick"!!

I just don't think that Ozzie is so stupid that he would keep allowing BK to lose games for us unless he was being "forced" to put him out there....which is why BK needs to call in sick, and the sooner the better!


--Mrs. Aloha

mealfred13
06-07-2004, 03:31 PM
It's sad to say, but I almost prefered Manuel's handling of the closer situation. At some point, he at least went to a closer-by-commitee situation to keep Koch out of the closer spot for a while. I don't think the problem with Ozzie is so much that he's being forced to put Koch in by KW. I think he's just sticking to his guns about having people do their jobs, in which Koch's job is to close. If Guillen doesn't put Shingo or someone else into the closer's spot on the next opportunity, THEN I'll be extremely surprised and annoyed, because Guillen has been pretty vocal about people doing their respective jobs, which Koch obviously isn't.

gosox41
06-07-2004, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
Koch blew a save. That's like saying "look, the sun came up again, just like it did yesterday." He's going to blow some saves. He always has, always will. His four-letter name has replaced a four-letter word that has served me well for years. But he's not the reason I'm pissed about this road trip.

The problem is at the plate.

Where the hell is the offense???

On this disastrous road trip the Sox averaged 3.2 runs per game. That's why they suck on the west coast. Not pitching.

I don't know what could be wrong with the Sox offense when the mighty Jamie Burke is sitting on the bench.


THere was a rather long thread about calling up Burke over Reed or Borchard. The logic of replacing Magglio with a platoon of Perez, Rowand and Gload and their combined .720 OPS combined with the fact that they called up a .220 hitter to replace Magglio's roster spot helps explain some of the lack of offense. This team was better off giving a shot to Reed or Borchard to see if they can have better then a .720 OPS as an every day player. THen stick those 3 guys on the bench instead of having to see Burke bat.


Bob