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View Full Version : *Unofficial - Not just cursing koch but actually discussing his status thread


jlh0023
06-07-2004, 12:38 AM
OK - I hate Koch, but beyond that, I think Ozzie made a powerful statement tonight. IMO Ozzie left Koch in because he's looking for an excuse to get his ass out of the closers role. The other night, Koch ****ed up a game, but Adkins got the loss, and Ozzie wants Koch to earn himself a loss, and show that he is wrong for the job. To sum it up, I think Ozzie got the memo.....KOCH SUCKS

I hope the next few games hold with my strategy, so we didn't lose this one for nothing.

Any Thoughts....

WSox8404
06-07-2004, 12:44 AM
Ozzie is not an idiot. He doesn't care whether or not Koch is making a ton of money. He is going to play whoever gets the job done, and obviously Koch ain't doing it. Therefore I do not expect to see Koch in there again for a long while.

wilburwood
06-07-2004, 12:47 AM
if Ozzie was giving him enough rope to hang himself I would like to think he he officially waving in the breeze, now lets find someone with enough gnads fo do a servicable job

jlh0023
06-07-2004, 12:48 AM
Funny you mention that because although I know it's not all Ozzie's say, he has left him in thus far, and it's not becuase of his performance. Which leads me to believe that his contract might have something to do with it.

samram
06-07-2004, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by WSox8404
Ozzie is not an idiot. He doesn't care whether or not Koch is making a ton of money. He is going to play whoever gets the job done, and obviously Koch ain't doing it. Therefore I do not expect to see Koch in there again for a long while.


Me either. Ozzie is probably as pissed as any of us are, and very likely more. He knows he has to give Shingo or Marte a shot at this thing. Koch will be relegated to mop up work for a while.

Cubbiesuck13
06-07-2004, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by WSox8404
Ozzie is not an idiot. He doesn't care whether or not Koch is making a ton of money. He is going to play whoever gets the job done, and obviously Koch ain't doing it. Therefore I do not expect to see Koch in there again for a long while.


i hate it when the sox loose and hate it more when it happens like this, but the eric gagnes of the world do not come often at any price. koch has blown games and will blow game in the future. but so did faulk and now he has a pretty nice ERA and is saving games for a different color sox. closers are wierd, and mostly unstable. You have to ride it out. Overall, Koch will be in the top 10 closers at the end of the year.

batmanZoSo
06-07-2004, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by Cubbiesuck13
i hate it when the sox loose and hate it more when it happens like this, but the eric gagnes of the world do not come often at any price. koch has blown games and will blow game in the future. but so did faulk and now he has a pretty nice ERA and is saving games for a different color sox. closers are wierd, and mostly unstable. You have to ride it out. Overall, Koch will be in the top 10 closers at the end of the year.

Number ten maybe. Big maybe. And that's just the AL.

If we're the tenth best hitting team in the league, that's not good.

jlh0023
06-07-2004, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by Cubbiesuck13
i hate it when the sox loose and hate it more when it happens like this, but the eric gagnes of the world do not come often at any price. koch has blown games and will blow game in the future. but so did faulk and now he has a pretty nice ERA and is saving games for a different color sox. closers are wierd, and mostly unstable. You have to ride it out. Overall, Koch will be in the top 10 closers at the end of the year.

I wouldn't call this impossible, but you can't compare Koch's situation to Foulke's. Foulke based his innings on his changeup, and when hitters realized that, he had to go back to the drawing board and make some changes to his approach. Koch's problem is not in his strategy, but his ability. He was not a finesse pitcher. His talents as a closer were closely tied to his power, and his velocity. He physically lost his velocity, and without it, he is very ineffective, because when he does get it in the strikezone, hitters just pop it up. It will be much more difficult for Koch to adjust to not having velocity than Foulke. Also, Koch is mentally unfit to close. He can't deal with pressure. I don't have the stats, but when he gets the first batter out, he is so much better off. Once guys get on, he just starts letting more guys on, and it keeps going. In the longrun.....I DON'T THINK THIS IS JUST A PHASE.

MRKARNO
06-07-2004, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by Cubbiesuck13
Overall, Koch will be in the top 10 closers at the end of the year.

No way. Are you watching him pitch? He throws one pitch, a 94 MPH fastball that has no movement or sink whatsoever. It's as flat as it gets. He occasionally drops the hook and it looked good tonight, but he doesnt know how to use it yet. Every time a hitter goes the the plate, all they have to do is foul off all the fastballs in the zone and either hope he walks you or that he leaves one over the middle of the plate so they can drive it. If you get on, you can steal at will because Koch is clueless as to how to hold runners. He just cant pitch and he has no proven track record of being able to pitch without his 100 MPH fastball. Without it, he's entirely exposed and he's got practically. The only hope is he starts throwing the curveball in the dirt or low more often with 2 strikes and hopefully the hitters will chase it in an attempt to foul off a fastball. He's just terrible. It's unfair to the other 275ish pitchers in the league to call Koch a pitcher and group him with them.

Cubbiesuck13
06-07-2004, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by jlh0023
I wouldn't call this impossible, but you can't compare Koch's situation to Foulke's. Foulke based his innings on his changeup, and when hitters realized that, he had to go back to the drawing board and make some changes to his approach. Koch's problem is not in his strategy, but his ability. He was not a finesse pitcher. His talents as a closer were closely tied to his power, and his velocity. He physically lost his velocity, and without it, he is very ineffective, because when he does get it in the strikezone, hitters just pop it up. It will be much more difficult for Koch to adjust to not having velocity than Foulke. Also, Koch is mentally unfit to close. He can't deal with pressure. I don't have the stats, but when he gets the first batter out, he is so much better off. Once guys get on, he just starts letting more guys on, and it keeps going. In the longrun.....I DON'T THINK THIS IS JUST A PHASE.

i agree that they are different pitchers but my point was that every closer is not perfect, nor close to it. You give up on one guy to watch him later be effective again and it makes you sick. There is no way that I re-sign the guy but you all ready have him and no one else is going to do a better job. This guy was getting his speed back. he was up by 4 mph last week or so. Koch will bounce back to save a few games. He will blow more games in the future. Such is baseball.

i am more mad about FOUR STOLEN BASES IN THE NINTH INNING! where are the threads on that? that is awfull. that makes me more sick than kotch.

mmmmmbeeer
06-07-2004, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by Cubbiesuck13
i hate it when the sox loose and hate it more when it happens like this, but the eric gagnes of the world do not come often at any price. koch has blown games and will blow game in the future. but so did faulk and now he has a pretty nice ERA and is saving games for a different color sox. closers are wierd, and mostly unstable. You have to ride it out. Overall, Koch will be in the top 10 closers at the end of the year.

Foulke hasn't lost his best pitch. Billy Koch used to have a 100MPH fastball that got people out. Even when he had the fastball with that kind of velocity he wasn't an extremely dependable closer. Nowadays he is without his #1 pitch. A pitcher without his #1 pitch is no longer the same pitcher. Keith Foulke still has his #1 pitch and should be expected to continue his career as an effective closer. To compare the two is ridiculous.

batmanZoSo
06-07-2004, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by Cubbiesuck13
i agree that they are different pitchers but my point was that every closer is not perfect, nor close to it. You give up on one guy to watch him later be effective again and it makes you sick. There is no way that I re-sign the guy but you all ready have him and no one else is going to do a better job. This guy was getting his speed back. he was up by 4 mph last week or so. Koch will bounce back to save a few games. He will blow more games in the future. Such is baseball.

i am more mad about FOUR STOLEN BASES IN THE NINTH INNING! where are the threads on that? that is awfull. that makes me more sick than kotch.

This is a major teamwide problem. It's not limited to Koch whatsoever. That needs to be worked on pronto.

MRKARNO
06-07-2004, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by mmmmmbeeer
Foulke hasn't lost his best pitch. Billy Koch used to have a 100MPH fastball that got people out. Even when he had the fastball with that kind of velocity he wasn't an extremely dependable closer. Nowadays he is without his #1 pitch. A pitcher without his #1 pitch is no longer the same pitcher. Keith Foulke still has his #1 pitch and should be expected to continue his career as an effective closer. To compare the two is ridiculous.

Foulke is a control pitcher with pretty good breaking stuff. Koch is/was a flameballer who lost his only weapon

TaylorStSox
06-07-2004, 01:18 AM
I'm not nearly as upset as everyone else. We have to put this into perspective. Obviously, Koch can't be the closer. Let's move on and find somebody who can step up and take the roll.

Shingo is the next logical choice. The main problem I see with him closing is that he relies heavily on junk. In a closing situation, umpires squeeze pitchers. Hopefully, Shingo can throw strikes.


On the bright side, we just went through a west coast swing and maintain a lead in the division. This came at a time when Minnesota played the worst in the AL.

I'm still excited about this team. :D:

Cubbiesuck13
06-07-2004, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
No way. Are you watching him pitch? He throws one pitch, a 94 MPH fastball that has no movement or sink whatsoever. It's as flat as it gets. He occasionally drops the hook and it looked good tonight, but he doesnt know how to use it yet. Every time a hitter goes the the plate, all they have to do is foul off all the fastballs in the zone and either hope he walks you or that he leaves one over the middle of the plate so they can drive it. If you get on, you can steal at will because Koch is clueless as to how to hold runners. He just cant pitch and he has no proven track record of being able to pitch without his 100 MPH fastball. Without it, he's entirely exposed and he's got practically. The only hope is he starts throwing the curveball in the dirt or low more often with 2 strikes and hopefully the hitters will chase it in an attempt to foul off a fastball. He's just terrible. It's unfair to the other 275ish pitchers in the league to call Koch a pitcher and group him with them.

no, i am not watching him pitch. my mindset is that a closer is going to have ups and downs before eventually tanking it. my point, in a nutshell, is that kotch has not tanked yet. He shows glimpses of being effective.

WhiteSox = Life
06-07-2004, 01:40 AM
Originally posted by Cubbiesuck13
no, i am not watching him pitch. my mindset is that a closer is going to have ups and downs before eventually tanking it. my point, in a nutshell, is that kotch has not tanked yet. He shows glimpses of being effective.

You're going to see glimpses of effectiveness from a lot of pitchers who can't throw the ball, and the same seems to apply to Billy. I seriously do not think you can ride his problems out, and the main reason exists in your own words that "kotch has not tanked yet." If he hasn't tanked yet, I do not want to be around when he does tank.

samram
06-07-2004, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
I'm not nearly as upset as everyone else. We have to put this into perspective. Obviously, Koch can't be the closer. Let's move on and find somebody who can step up and take the roll.

Shingo is the next logical choice. The main problem I see with him closing is that he relies heavily on junk. In a closing situation, umpires squeeze pitchers. Hopefully, Shingo can throw strikes.


On the bright side, we just went through a west coast swing and maintain a lead in the division. This came at a time when Minnesota played the worst in the AL.

I'm still excited about this team. :D:

I'm upset, but still excited. Ozzie will find someone else or at least give someone else a shot.

And you're right about the Twins. The Sox are still up a game and the Twins have played TB and Detroit for a week at home- it can only get tougher. They still all have all their games against the Yankees, and they have played KC, TB, and Detroit a few times already.

soxrme
06-07-2004, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by samram
Me either. Ozzie is probably as pissed as any of us are, and very likely more. He knows he has to give Shingo or Marte a shot at this thing. Koch will be relegated to mop up work for a while.

Blame some of this on Ozzie too, that was a piss poor job of managing.

GoSox2K3
06-07-2004, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by Cubbiesuck13
koch has blown games and will blow game in the future. but so did faulk and now he has a pretty nice ERA and is saving games for a different color sox. closers are wierd, and mostly unstable. You have to ride it out.

I'll use this fact to console myself in October when the season is over and the Sox finish 2 games behind the Twins.

Seriously, Koch has to go - at this point he's incompetent. Any game he is brought in to is pretty a given that he'll bring the winning run into scoring position. How many more games can the Sox afford to throw away because he's our closer. They are better off releasing him and bringing up some mediocre pitcher from the minors.

If the Sox keep pitching Koch, then it's a sign to me that they are not serious about making the playoffs this year. Maybe we can call in our "White Flag" closer!!!

dpbyron
06-07-2004, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by soxrme
Blame some of this on Ozzie too, that was a piss poor job of managing.

What was piss poor?

Moses_Scurry
06-07-2004, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
I'm not nearly as upset as everyone else. We have to put this into perspective. Obviously, Koch can't be the closer. Let's move on and find somebody who can step up and take the roll.



This is what has me really angry. It was OBVIOUS to everyone before last night. It was OBVIOUS to everyone before the Oakland game. Both of those losses could have been avoided. Sure, they could have been blown by Koch's replacement, but we'll never know.

jlh0023
06-07-2004, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Cubbiesuck13
i agree that they are different pitchers but my point was that every closer is not perfect, nor close to it. You give up on one guy to watch him later be effective again and it makes you sick. There is no way that I re-sign the guy but you all ready have him and no one else is going to do a better <A TITLE="Click for more information about job" STYLE="text-decoration: none; border-bottom: medium solid green;" HREF="http://search.targetwords.com/u.search?x=5977|1||||job|AA1VDw">job</A>. This guy was getting his speed back. he was up by 4 mph last week or so. Koch will bounce back to save a few games. He will blow more games in the future. Such is baseball.

i am more mad about FOUR STOLEN BASES IN THE NINTH INNING! where are the threads on that? that is awfull. that makes me more sick than kotch.

first of all, shingo would do a better job, he is a pimp....and second of all, the stolen base thing is team wide, but it is partially the pitchers fault, so that just adds to koch's badness

mantis1212
06-07-2004, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by soxrme
Blame some of this on Ozzie too, that was a piss poor job of managing.

What's piss poor about it? 9th inning, up by 2, he brings in his closer. That's like clockwork around the mlb.

Mohoney
06-07-2004, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
I'm not nearly as upset as everyone else. We have to put this into perspective. Obviously, Koch can't be the closer. Let's move on and find somebody who can step up and take the roll.

Shingo is the next logical choice. The main problem I see with him closing is that he relies heavily on junk. In a closing situation, umpires squeeze pitchers. Hopefully, Shingo can throw strikes.


On the bright side, we just went through a west coast swing and maintain a lead in the division. This came at a time when Minnesota played the worst in the AL.

I'm still excited about this team. :D:

Maybe it's just me, but I think that Shingo's biggest asset is pinpoint control. I have absolutely no worries with him throwing strikes. I can't remember the last time I saw this guy missing his spots. The way he hits the corner with that offspeed pitch is just beautiful to watch.

gosox41
06-07-2004, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by WSox8404
Ozzie is not an idiot. He doesn't care whether or not Koch is making a ton of money. He is going to play whoever gets the job done, and obviously Koch ain't doing it. Therefore I do not expect to see Koch in there again for a long while.

I can only hope.


Bob

gosox41
06-07-2004, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by dpbyron
What was piss poor?

He keeps using Koch.

Bob

ode to veeck
06-07-2004, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Cubbiesuck13
i am more mad about FOUR STOLEN BASES IN THE NINTH INNING! where are the threads on that? that is awfull. that makes me more sick than kotch.

Originally posted by batmanZoSo
This is a major teamwide problem. It's not limited to Koch whatsoever. That needs to be worked on pronto.

The solution is to not have Sandy in near the end of close games, a runner gets on and he's got an easy SB. Having Olivo in there won't totally guarantee we'll stop the bleeding, just that with Sandy in there we'll never have a shot at stopping the runner.

SoxSweepCubs
06-07-2004, 05:21 PM
How many times can the man be given Heimlich before the choking stops? It's painfully obvious that Ozzie has been FAR beyond lenient, and given Billy Koch more than his share of opportunities to nail this role. I've seen some bad showings by Billy, but last night was just gut-wrenching. He may as well just flailed his arms around, directing base-runners like air traffic control. Hits galore, walks, stolen bases up the yin yang...I say pull up a minor leaguer or whoever the hell we can get, and get him out because not only is he terrible, but he obviously doesn't WANT to be out there. We have minor issues with other closers, but they can be worked with in time...Koch is beyond hope.

ode to veeck
06-07-2004, 06:47 PM
SoxSweepCubs,

Nice handle and welcome to WSI!

I think the key is the next opportunity. Two blown saves in a row ought to seal Billy's fate; he shouldn't be the closer anymore.

Vernam
06-07-2004, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by jlh0023
OK - I hate Koch, but beyond that, I think Ozzie made a powerful statement tonight. IMO Ozzie left Koch in because he's looking for an excuse to get his ass out of the closers role. The other night, Koch ****ed up a game, but Adkins got the loss, and Ozzie wants Koch to earn himself a loss, and show that he is wrong for the job. To sum it up, I think Ozzie got the memo.....KOCH SUCKS

I hope the next few games hold with my strategy, so we didn't lose this one for nothing.

Any Thoughts....
It might be wishful thinking, but that's exactly what went through my head in the ninth yesterday. I don't remember ever having such a sense of certainty that they were going to lose. Ozzie wouldn't intentionally lose -- and I know that's not what you're saying -- but that outcome was inevitable, and I for one just wanted it to get over quickly so we never have to see it again.

A major asset for Ozzie right now is the fans' support; he's on his way to becoming a cult figure if the team keeps winning. But people are going to lose respect, IMO, if he doesn't do what's obviously necessary and keep Koch out of game-breaking situations.

Has anyone else noticed that Ozzie isn't afraid to make veiled criticisms of KW? For example, Oz made clear that starting Cotts wasn't his preference. If KW is apt to pressure him into keeping Koch as closer (and can he be that foolish?), hopefully Ozzie will do resist and do the right thing.

VC

mrwag
06-07-2004, 08:26 PM
I tell you what. I'm gonna be REAL PISSED if we lose this division by one or 2 games. Everyone said last year that losing the games to Tampa Bay and Detroit were no big deal because it was still early, but look what happened. We take a few of those cake walk games (which I still remember Koch blowing the lead in Tampa) and we're watching the Sox in October.

I hope Ozzie doesn't experiment any longer. A winning team does not lose these types of games repeatedly.

Cubbiesuck13
06-07-2004, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by ode to veeck
The solution is to not have Sandy in near the end of close games, a runner gets on and he's got an easy SB. Having Olivo in there won't totally guarantee we'll stop the bleeding, just that with Sandy in there we'll never have a shot at stopping the runner.

No, the catcher is not having a chance to throw them out. The pitchers are taking way too long to get the ball to the plate. Kotch said himself. Other pitchers have said that in the past. I can't watch any of the games usually. Even the nationally televised games so I am going on second hand info. However, I do know that unless the pitcher gets the ball to home plate within 1.4 seconds or something like that, no catcher has a chance. Olivo got swiped four times by one guy in one game in baltimore. The pitchers have to keep the runners from going. Or the fielders have to start faking them out themselves. Something has to be done about it. It is sad.

SpringfldFan
06-08-2004, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by Mohoney
Maybe it's just me, but I think that Shingo's biggest asset is pinpoint control. I have absolutely no worries with him throwing strikes. I can't remember the last time I saw this guy missing his spots. The way he hits the corner with that offspeed pitch is just beautiful to watch.


Consider this possiblity:

Shingo = Eckersley?

MRKARNO
06-09-2004, 01:21 AM
:ozzie

"Anyone but beelee is my closer"